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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => LAB Subwoofer FUD Forum Archive => Topic started by: DAVID_L_PERRY on July 14, 2006, 11:00:40 am

Title: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: DAVID_L_PERRY on July 14, 2006, 11:00:40 am
Just wondering if anybody has any experience comments using these:-
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/DR290.html

They look like the answer to my dreams...

Got the plans and they are a pretty complex build (thats not a problem), but having concerns about a post on speakerplans.com forum raising points that any driver mounted in a bent/folded horn is going to be no good on upper mids....

Just like to get any other views on things as I dont want to waste my time and money building something that is going te be a major let down.  The image shows a slot in the front, this is where the HF driver horns are mounted but it does not shown them.

Cheers, Dave

index.php/fa/5242/0/
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Lawrence Langford on July 16, 2006, 02:16:44 am
I have built a pair of DR250's and the output was truly incredible.  It's definitely worth the time and effort.
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Alan Star on July 17, 2006, 06:01:00 am
We are getting 4 dr300's built to go on top of our 8 lab subs, won't be able to report  until we have them all together in mid sept. By all reports the dr's are very good, look forward to hearing them myself though.
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: leon douven on July 18, 2006, 03:13:59 am
Hi Alan,

Keep us posted please, I'm verry curious of the
combination LAB-sub / dr300.

Regards,
Leon
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: DAVID_L_PERRY on July 18, 2006, 06:09:24 am
Lawrence, what cabs did you replace with the DR250's or have you compared them side to side against other cabs.

I am tryng to get some perspective before I start the build of my own DR290's

Alan, what are you replacing with the DR300's

Cheers, Dave
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Chris Coleman 2 on July 18, 2006, 12:04:30 pm
Lawrence, What drivers did you use on your DR250's ??  Do you have any way of making an RTA plot or frequency/phase spectrum chart for us ??

THanks mate
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Lawrence Langford on July 19, 2006, 01:06:31 am
I used the Eminence Beta 10's.  And the plots should be posted on Bill's site.
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Alan Star on July 19, 2006, 04:37:19 am
DAVID_L_PERRY wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 18:09

Lawrence, what cabs did you replace with the DR250's or have you compared them side to side against other cabs.

I am tryng to get some perspective before I start the build of my own DR290's

Alan, what are you replacing with the DR300's

Cheers, Dave



Hi Dave, we are building this system from scratch, so we are not so much replacing a system of the same size but upgrading to a bigger system. Although i have been with just 2 lab subs and mackie active speakers up until this point.

Cheers, Alan.
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Bogdan Popescu on July 19, 2006, 05:10:07 am
i am also very curious about the DR300 and i can't judge on the measurements made by the producer. I am also concerned about how they sound in the upper mid.

Bogdan
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: DAVID_L_PERRY on July 19, 2006, 10:03:47 am
Cheers Alan
What mackie tops are they ?

should be an awesome output system when complete.

I assume you are doing lots of large/outdoor stuff having gone for the DR300's ?
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Alan Star on July 23, 2006, 10:20:28 am
DAVID_L_PERRY wrote on Wed, 19 July 2006 22:03

Cheers Alan
What mackie tops are they ?

should be an awesome output system when complete.

I assume you are doing lots of large/outdoor stuff having gone for the DR300's ?



Hi David, have just been using a pair of SA1521's for smaller outdoor parties with my 2 labs. Was suprised at the mackies output though on high pass. Yes, the dr's are planned for bigger outdoor events. Probably a bit of an overkill for smaller events but I think I will sell the mackies if the dr's are sounding good, I think dispersion may be a bit of an issue with just a pair of them though. Hoping it will be ok with 2 on each side though.
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: DAVID_L_PERRY on August 30, 2006, 06:21:27 am
Ok guys.  After all the comments I have completed the build of a single DR290 top pack yesterday and will be trying it out tonight at war volume against a couple of 'traditional' cab designs.

The DR290 cab is loaded with a Single B&C neo 12" driver and a pair of 1" JBL 2416 compression drivers.

The other cabs I will be testing against are
A Concert systems (respected uk manufacturer) JBL loaded 1x15 + 1x2" biamped top

My current sealed front loaded Eminence delta Pro 1x12 + 1x2" (Celestion CD3065)

An Adlib audio 1x12 + 1" top pack

Knobody is more interested in how they sound more than me after the time involved in the build.

We will be trying the cabs out with three of us there to try and get a subjective view.

I powered the cab up last night at moderate levels (as it was pretty late) and I have to say it sounded superb, but tonight will be the tester at war volume.

We will be taking down a couple of Measurement mics to try and check what the output measures at, up against the other cabs.

All of the cabs will be alligned using my Ultradrive
We will test the system using pink noise and try and obtain on/off axis readings.  We also have a good test source cd with swept sign waves and test tones (Its Binks test cd)

I will initially eq the cab to give a fairly flat response.

We are mainly going to be doing a good listenening test using various sources of playback music and a sound test CD.

I will fill you in tomorrow on the findings

Dave
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: DAVID_L_PERRY on August 31, 2006, 04:28:39 am
Posting this on Bills forum as well as here as a lot of people are pretty interested in the results:-

So I had the full system settup last night at a local Hall I use along with two other PA providers I know well (Cheers Rick)

Seriously dissapointed is somewhat of an understatement....are you all ready to start pointing and laughing and shout told you so...go on have a go...I'm a big boy....oh god Im so upset

The cab sounded good, but not quite as smooth sounding as either of the other two cabs we tried it up against (we just did my existing sealed front loaded top and the Concert systems top the Adlib was a not checked). (All traditional front baffle loaded boxes)

We could eq the top end to be as smooth as the other two boxes (both had 2" HF drivers) but the mid range still didnt sound quite as good or extend as low as either of the other boxes.

Standalone it sounded good, its just when you then plugged in the other cabs and unplugged the DR that you hear it does not sound as good or any louder (other than a harsher top end without eq adjustment)

The other major factor was that the DR was no louder at all than the other cabs.  We had a DB meter running all the time so that we did not have to trust purely our ears.

We checked the cabs with purely the midrange drivers running and checked for air leaks all around the cab and within the throat assembly - none at all.  

Again when my existing front baffle loaded cab was plugged in the midrange sounded fuller and a little louder (agian checked with a DB meter and not just our ears)

Unfortunately we had reliability issues with the Measurement mic so could not use it to eq out the cabs but instead simlpy eq'd to taste.

Obviously you will have to simply take my word for it that the cab build is airtight and built to exact spec (certainly not my first cab build) so I can discount build quality error.

I have asked Bill to double check the specs of the driver agian to make sure that it is a suitable driver (He previoulsy said it was but worth double checking)

B&C 12 hpl76 :-

Nominal Diameter 320 (12) mm (in)
Nominal Impedance 8 Ohm
Minimum Impedence 6.7 Ohm
Nominal Power Handling 350 W
Continuous Power Handling 700 W
Sensitivity (1W/1m) 99 dB
Frequency Range 50 -3500 Hz
Voice Coil Diameter 76 (3) mm (in)
Winding Material Aluminium
Former Material Glass Fibre
Winding Depth 17.5 (11/16) mm (in)
Magnetic Gap Depth 10 (0.4) mm (in)
Flux Density 1.15 T

Fs 49 Hz
Re 5.7 Ohm
Qes 0.26
Qms 2.5
Qts 0.25
Vas 91 (3.2) dm3 (ft3)
Sd 522 (80.9) cm2 (in2)
Eta Zero 4.1 %
Xmax +/- 4 mm
Xvar +/- 5.5 mm
Mms 43 g
Bl 17.3 Txm
Le 1.5 mH

The two HF horns are JBL 2416 1" specs as follows:-
HIGH FREQUENCY SECTION: 2416H-1
Sensitivity’: 109 dB, 1 W @ 1 m
Input Power Rating’: 50 W continuous program
Crossover Frequency: 1.5 kHz
continuous power rating of 50 watts.

I had my subs crossed over at 120hz and the horns crossed over at 1.6k

I plan on removing the B&C and trying out in my existing tops to see how it sounds in that - It should be a far better driver than the Eminence Delta Pro

Summary so far was that it did not sound as good and no more powerfull than either of the other two boxes that I could have built in one evening.....arghhhhh....

Not thrown in the towel yet but very close.....my wife laughed a lot...

Dave


Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: joseph decker on September 01, 2006, 02:05:26 am
I'm not sure, but it seems like Bill might have mentioned that he didn't look at the frequency responses, but that the B&C driver should work if it had the rising response to 2.5k that the 2510 has.

Looking at the spec sheets, it looks like the 12 hpl 76 has about a 4 db bump around this frequency. The Deltalite II has a much more pronounced rise up it, as opposed to the smaller 'bump' in the B&C's response. Also, the Deltalite's response, in addition to having a rise that starts lower in frequency, is up about 9 db.

The DR's count on this rising response to overcome the attenuation caused by the 180 degree bend and horn's upper rolloff beginning. The smaller rise is probably the culprit here.

Lowering the crossover slightly or, if you have one availible, trying a driver with a more pronounced rise might give better results.

It's bad to stay in a relationship purely because there's so much invested in it that you don't want to give up, but i'd encourage you to give it another try, if only for that reason.

joseph decker
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Peter Morris on September 02, 2006, 10:01:58 pm
Hi David

The problem with a 12 inch horn loaded mid is that they struggle to get much pass 800Hz.  Make a model in McBean’s Hornresp (Exp, Hyp, Conical etc. does not matter) and you will find that the critical parameters are cone mass and the motor strength (BL/Re^2).  Even with a very light cone and a strong motor, 800Hz is about the limit.  Only 80dB/W/M by the time you get to 2KHz!

However this programme assumes the cone behaves as a piston, which it does not in the higher frequency ranges. In the case of a 12, the piston range ends at ABOUT 800 Hz.  I guess you could say that the horn is then seeing a smaller lighter cone as only the centre of the speaker is moving (sort of)

Looking at bills design it appears to go really well up to about 500 Hz and then starts to rely on this behaviour.

I suspect part of your problem is the B&C driver does not suit this type of application even though it appears OK.  I would suggest you MAYBE better using the drivers that Bill suggests.
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: DAVID_L_PERRY on September 04, 2006, 05:45:01 am
Prior to starting the DR build, Bill did originally state this driver was very good in the DR, but much more expensive in the US Rolling Eyes .

As the eminence Deltalite 2512 was not available to me in the UK for about 4 weeks I went for the more expensive B&C.  As the cab is crossed over now at about 1.2k the difference between the Eminence and B&C higher mid range should not be of any issue.

I am going for another full try out tomorrow night and will post results.
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: bgavin (Bruce Gavin) on September 04, 2006, 09:07:54 am
DAVID_L_PERRY wrote on Thu, 31 August 2006 01:28

Obviously you will have to simply take my word for it that the cab build is airtight and built to exact spec (certainly not my first cab build) so I can discount build quality error.


Considering so MANY have great success with this design, and you do not, one cannot dismiss the probability of a build error.

Even experienced physicians kill people now and then.  That is why it is called "practicing medicine."

I don't see a post of an impedance plot or response measurement that would systematically identify the cause of your problem.  IMO, very few users on PSW have any DR experience at all, let alone experience with multiple builds.  

So I have to ask, are you here at PSW to bad mouth the DR?  If not, and you are here to find the cause of your problem, then you are in the wrong place.
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Craig Leerman on September 04, 2006, 05:53:34 pm
Quote:

Considering so MANY have great success with this design, and you do not, one cannot dismiss the probability of a build error.


Or, those that are having success have not done a heads up comparison against better cabinets using similar drivers.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Bill's designs, or anyone elses, but I have found that many people who build things, will see past faults in the outcome, because they have built it themselves.

I personally used some home built cabinets loaded with JBLs successfully for years, and was very happy with the results, until I had the opportunity to directly compare them to some other cabinets loaded with the exact same drivers. Only then was it apparent to me that my design (tuned mainly by ear and not by math) was not as "optimal" as I had thought!  


Quote:



I don't see a post of an impedance plot or response measurement that would systematically identify the cause of your problem. IMO, very few users on PSW have any DR experience at all, let alone experience with multiple builds.

So I have to ask, are you here at PSW to bad mouth the DR? If not, and you are here to find the cause of your problem, then you are in the wrong place.


A lot of PSW user have experience with "multiple builds" You just don't see a lot of it posted here because A) This is the LAB SUB forum, and most folks keep the topic on the LAB SUB, and B)You don't know the people here on the site.   If you did, you would understand that MOST of the older folks here all built the majority of their gear (because back then there was little gear available to buy that fit our needs), and a good portion of even the younger folks have built a lot of gear (especially monitors and subs).  

I didn't see his posting as bad mouthing. Nor is he in "the wrong place" to find the cause of a problem. If anything, I'll bet the collective speaker design/build experience here is far greater than most of the other DIY PA forums COMBINED!

Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: peter.golde on September 04, 2006, 10:28:05 pm
DIY is a gamble, Bill Fitz provides very good measurements for his designs, but countless factors involved in DIY are beyond his control or ability to guarantee success. Then there are other things that need to be considered such as intended usage, volume requirements, a "sound" you are looking for, etc.
I agree that speakers you build yourself tend to sound better, until you A/B them against superior systems.
I have built Bill's designs, Mr. Danleys design, and my own with very good success. I can also state then I have built the DR250, one of Bill's folded horn designs similar to Mr. Perry's DR290, compared it against several MI grade boxes, and it has fared quite well, not just my opinion, but also of other sound professionals present and listening. So my success story with these is for $200 worth of parts and my leisure time invested, I built a box that beats anything MI grade offering. At a recent rave, these little boxes had the best sound in the house. Three rooms, three different systems, one with JBL SRX dual 15 tops, the other with Yorkville fully horn loaded tops. It was easy to walk from one room to the next and listen. The Fitzmaurice horns had the best sound by far. This tells me that for this particular usage, in this particular room, I had the system that fit best. If the rooms were swapped, or if it was a live event it might have been different.
I do not agree with Bruce Gavin, that MR. Perry was bad mouthing the designs, I feel Mr. Perry's frustration in that it is a considerable investment in time to build these things, especially the first go around, and his expectations were high. I think if he built them correctly, he should end up with a very usable box. The midbass performance of these horns is impressive, and since he found his to be lacking, something might need to be fixed.
I find PSW to be an invaluable resource, there aren't many sites on the web with such dedicated professionals so eager to give up their trade secrets to help others up and coming. Where would Evan K. be without the guidance from industry professionals here Razz

Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Peter Morris on September 05, 2006, 03:08:01 am
Hmmmmm …..  Your choices are:

Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Dave Rickard on September 06, 2006, 12:01:30 am
You forgot one choice:

Apparently, the polarity was reversed on the horns, causing a giant suckout at the crossover frequency.

http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=5846#5846

Glad to hear that got worked out.

Dave
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Peter Morris on September 06, 2006, 07:59:32 pm
Though that was cover under build quality  .... anyway nice to see it all working. Cool

I wonder how close it is to the KF760 killing DR300 in performance  Shocked
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: DAVID_L_PERRY on September 07, 2006, 05:27:08 am
Hi chaps just to fill you in on my thoughts so far.

I have posted some photos of the RTA pink noise plots with and without eq here as well as my first test results:-

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/prosoundhire/dr290.htm

I am keeping a very subjective point of view regarding this cab even after spending the time building it.  In fact to be fair this gives me all the more reason to be sure it does what I want of it before commiting to spending more time building the next cab.

Its very time consuming and you have to be very accurate as all of the cab is built with curved panels and an overall 4deg slope top and btm.  You have to bear in mind these things are a very complex design/build next to any other cab design.

As far as testing the cab:-

It was simply superb on the vocal output.
My Current tops sounded better with some cd source material but the DR's sounded better with other's.  Still room for further EQ improvement on the DR290.

After setting the system flat, and then tweaking a little more down on the top end, the Vocal check with a mic was the last thing I did.

Next to the DR290 my current tops sounded pretty thin in the lower mids.

It was simply superb on the vocal output.

The output of the DR290 was higher than my existing tops at high levels.

I dont have a laptop to use Smaart, so can't carry out any tests other than the RTA measurement and time delay/phase settings using my Ultradrive (I understand the Behringer measurement mic is not accurate for phase response but good for flat eq response)

I plan on building another cab design before I commit to the time building another DR290.  

I have plans for a coaxial 1x12 & 2".  I am going to mock up the horn and again do a full A/B/C listening test to try and get a subjective result between all three top packs.

One thing I need to check out is the horn impedence again as I was pretty sure they where both 16ohm units, simply because next to the 2416 was a 16 in a circle.  But if they are both actually 8ohm units then I was pushing way to much into the HF component which would explain the high un eq'd RTA level of the DR290 as seen on the RTA plot.

Not sure about the polarity issue though as the Ultradrive swapped both the 12" and the pair of 1" drivers around. Its more than likely that I have a cocked up the polarity of one of the patch cables I made to test the system out on this last test as the polarity was not swapped when I first tested the cab.

Dont quite understand why one poster thinks that I am trying to rubbish Bills designs, Dont think I would have committed to the long and complex build if that was the case.

Dave
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: DAVID_L_PERRY on September 07, 2006, 07:22:44 am
bgavin (Bruce Gavin) wrote on Mon, 04 September 2006 14:07

 Considering so MANY have great success with this design, and you do not, one cannot dismiss the probability of a build error.



I would agree with this, but even after posting on this forum, Bills own forum and Speakerplans.com forum, only a handfull of people replied with what cabs they had replaced with the DR range cabs. Most of the people who did reply had replaced pretty low level cabs (very old Peavey SP range stuff etc). or had built the system to do a very different job (replace a small system with a multiple top packs for large outdoor gigs).

I have found very little actually comparisons of quality cabs being replaced.  This in itself was hard to justify making the build.

Lots of people have had great success with his subs, but as the DR290-300 is pretty new not many have built them yet. You maybe thinking about his DR250 (smaller 10" driver)

Bills forum has been a fantastic source of help during the build, and I hope that the cab will shine a little more with some more eq work.

Even on my first test the cabs sounded great on there own, and the two other PA guys down with me both said they would be very happy with them. But it was the comparison against two other quality cabs that highlited that they where not quit as sparkling as expected with the initial EQ.

Dave
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: DAVID_L_PERRY on September 20, 2006, 03:50:19 am
Bill Fitzmaurice.....I salute you

DR290 - Awesome
After all the problems I have had in getting this thing perfect the end result has been magic.

Biggest thing I think was changing the HF horns to run in series and pretty sure changing the B&C to the Delta Pro has been a massive change.

Stunning lower mids...superb. I am very, very happy and relieved

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/prosoundhire/dr290.htm

Glad I did not throw in the towel at the first hurdle

I did originally model the coaxial using hornresp with the same horn mouth area as the DR290, but the actual LF response dropped , (very possible that it is user error !!).  

I was still very impressed with the co-axial, it sounded great, far better than my front loaded, but lacked the low mids of the DR.

When I check out any similar co-axial horn loaded top packs, all of them have a low cut off of a about 140-160hz, which is the area that I am missing in my PA.  Ok if I go four way but I dont want to do that.  Maybe with a lot of processing I could get the low mids to be bumbed up, but I would rather not have to artifically increase those levels.

Any Uk builder is more than welcome to take a listen once I have the second up and running.

Dave
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Alan Star on September 26, 2006, 10:07:48 pm
leon douven wrote on Tue, 18 July 2006 15:13

Hi Alan,

Keep us posted please, I'm verry curious of the
combination LAB-sub / dr300.

Regards,
Leon


Well after a bit of a mix up we only ended up with 2 dr's for the gig, the other 2 somehow ended up on a boat instead of a plane, even though they were dropped off at the airport ?

The 2 dr300's we couldnt get set up/eq'd properly in time so we ended up using 4 nexo ps15's with the 8 lab subs, the sound guys rekoned the nexo's would keep up with the labs but I dont rekon they did, they had to keep the labs on a leash I rekon.

Very happy with the sound of the labs so far, needless to say.

Will have the other pair of dr300's here soon so will have a play with them then.

My first impressions of the first pair of dr300's is that they sounded harsh, they were being run with passive crossovers inside, i will bi amp these next ones and see how that goes.
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: DAVID_L_PERRY on September 27, 2006, 06:47:03 am
Ahh welcome to my world.... Very Happy

At least its only money you speant rather than masses of build time.

Corrective EQ is the absolute mother to get these to work for you. No question.

just started the build of the next set of DR290's following the (long awaited)success of my first.

The other major factor for me was putting the pair of 1" horns in series rather than parallal, dropping the sensitivity.

Dave
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Alan Star on September 27, 2006, 10:09:48 am
Thanks David, I was planning to run the comp. drivers in series, so a fair bit of eq adjustment was necessary for yours then ?

I have a drive rack pa and my partner has an rta mic so will try and pink them and see what results that returns, will be curious to see how they sound flat first though of course.

I have a pair of mackie sa1521's that I want to do a comparitive AB test with the dr's. Although I know there are probably many speakers with higher fidelity than the mackies, I thenk the sa's would give a pretty good benchmark to go by.
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Jeff Babcock on September 27, 2006, 05:24:27 pm
Alan,
I would look forward to your comparisons and findings as well on the DR290's, especially to the Mackie tops which are a fairly common item and many users have probably encountered.  I would expect the 290's to leave the Mackies in the dust in terms of output, but your thoughts regarding the overall characteristics would be great.

I have been closely following David's progress with the 290's as I am considering some of these myself since he worked out the initial issues and ended up extremely satisfied.  Once the horns were in series David noticed a big improvement and less eq required, however looking at Bill F's specs they are not as flat as some boxes - eq definitely is required to get them really happening.

These look like outstanding boxes, especially since they require such little power to get such substantial output.
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Alan Star on September 28, 2006, 05:33:58 am
Yes by all accounts the dr300's should be a lot louder and throw further than the mackies, I would be surprised if they didn't, it's the fidelity I am more concerned about and and even more to the point...my ability to get the eq right. ...which is why I like the mackies.

Just so you know, I have chosen, eminence kappa pro's and eminence 2" psd comp. drivers on Bill's recomendation. He recomended the definimax instead of the kappa pro but said the kappa pro would work well also and I think it may have better handling in upper mid range or something like that.
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Jeff Babcock on September 28, 2006, 08:53:30 pm
Alan & David,
Sounds good.  Please let me know your thoughts re the fidelity once you spend some time getting used to them.  Especially how you would compare them to other fairly well known boxes such as the Mackies or some other common brands.

I'm in the process of asking Bill F about having someone build these for me as I think it may be more of a challenge than I want to take on myself.  Alan - who built yours?
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: DAVID_L_PERRY on September 29, 2006, 04:14:50 am
Hi Alan

After re-wiring the HF drivers to drop the sensitivity and replacing the B&C driver with the Delta Pro the cab took only minor eq to get it flat with pink noise, howevor this was done in a hall and not outside, so clearly room acoustics come into play.  But the point being it was a relative test against other cabs in the same room.

This is the Pink noise RTA plot before I re-wired the horns and as you can see it was very hot in that area - hence the harshness of the first test (you can also see the roll off of the B&C in the upper mids that the correct Eminence Delta Pro does not suffer):-
  http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/prosoundhire/DR290%20rta%20no%20e q.jpg
This also explained why so much eq was required to take the harshness out of the box.

You can see the eq adjustmenet required here after the re-wire to get a flat eq and it was pretty small:-
   http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/prosoundhire/dr290%20new%20eq.jpg

You can also see other info on my web page for the DR290
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/prosoundhire/dr290.htm

Dont forget to sort out the delay of the HF horns and 12" to get the system alligned. As the 12" horn path is so long it is a fair amount of delay on the DR290

The biggest thing for me was simply testing the tops with a vocal mic without the subs (I have just gone over to Aux fed subs) and my current tops just dont extend low enough to cover the lower mids well enough.  This is where the DR simply shines.  Try it out with a mic once you have it eq'd again.

Its just a shame I could not get hold of the original spec'd driver in the first place and ended up using the more expensive but not ideal B&C driver (even after checking it out with bill first...)  Just prooves that paper tests are one thing but real world tests can show something else.

Hope you sort it out, and keep us posted


Dave
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Alan Star on September 29, 2006, 09:37:52 am
Jeff Babcock wrote on Fri, 29 September 2006 08:53

Alan & David,
Sounds good.  Please let me know your thoughts re the fidelity once you spend some time getting used to them.  Especially how you would compare them to other fairly well known boxes such as the Mackies or some other common brands.

I'm in the process of asking Bill F about having someone build these for me as I think it may be more of a challenge than I want to take on myself.  Alan - who built yours?



Hey Jeff, Harley Dear built my cabinets and I would recommend him without any hesitation... he is in new zealand - bacer5@ihug.co.nz
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Alan Star on October 26, 2006, 09:36:04 am
Well I finally screwed in the last parts of the dr300's that Harley built for me and fired them up for the first time this afternoon. I had both of them sitting on top of my 4 LAB subs, the most noticeable thing for me was how punchy and clear they were in the bottom end, I had them crossed over at 80hz with the labs and they seemed to meet well there. They really added some serious thump to the labs that I haven't heard with my mackies which I thought so far have sounded a bit tinny on top of the labs at times. So far I am happy with the potential, I haven't had a chance to pink them yet and will do so using rta and driverack pa. I guess you have probably figured I am fairly novice, by no means anywhere as experienced as many here but hope this may interest some people.

I guess the most interesting part of this is that the dr300 (and dr290) are horn loaded all the way down to 80hz so theoretically could work well with the LABS ?

I was a bit nervous to fire these up as I wasn't sure if I might be dissapointed with them, well just with the eq flat they actually sounded pretty impressive, certainly loud enough, although a bit harsh here and there so looking forward now to seeing if I can get some extra fidelity with them using the driverack and rta mic and will report back here once I have tested that.

Any suggestions, tips, welcomed, am wondering what amp set up to use for the dr's?

This is what I tested with today.

2x DR300 -  top end 2 x 200watts ? into 16ohms (1 zpe800 crossed at 1200hz)
               - mid bass 2 x 1000watts into 8ohms (2 mackie m1400's)

4x LABS  - 2 x 2500watts into 2ohms (parralleled pairs/1 crown itech6000)

With the 4 labs clustered centrally, with this set up I felt like I wanted to push up the mid range and even more so, the top end.
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: peter.golde on October 26, 2006, 04:24:05 pm
Alan Star wrote on Thu, 26 October 2006 09:36

Well I finally screwed in the last parts of the dr300's that Harley built for me and fired them up for the first time this afternoon. I had both of them sitting on top of my 4 LAB subs, the most noticeable thing for me was how punchy and clear they were in the bottom end, I had them crossed over at 80hz with the labs and they seemed to meet well there. They really added some serious thump to the labs that I haven't heard with my mackies which I thought so far have sounded a bit tinny on top of the labs at times. ...


This is what I have found with similar setups and what I think everyone is missing when they put front loaded cabs on top of Lab Subs or any other high quality horn loaded sub. All the "kick" is 80hz and above, the Labs have no "kick", they just move an incredible amount of air, and when this is coupled to a horn loaded midbass the results are amazing. You wont want to use the front loaded boxes again, assuming you can get the mid and high you want from your DR300's. Very Happy


Quote:


I guess the most interesting part of this is that the dr300 (and dr290) are horn loaded all the way down to 80hz so theoretically could work well with the LABS ?



I think you answered your own question above


Quote:


I was a bit nervous to fire these up as I wasn't sure if I might be dissapointed with them, well just with the eq flat they actually sounded pretty impressive, certainly loud enough, although a bit harsh here and there so looking forward now to seeing if I can get some extra fidelity with them using the driverack and rta mic and will report back here once I have tested that.



Scary, buying on the faith of some internet forum.  Shocked  
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: Alan Star on October 26, 2006, 09:22:47 pm
peter.golde wrote on Fri, 27 October 2006 04:24



Scary, buying on the faith of some internet forum.  Shocked  



I know ! Although I must say that Harley did an amazingly thorough job on them but the pain of getting these boxes out of customs here and associated charges etc. has just made me think I will take the plunge next time and build them myself. Cost me close to a grand to get them out of customs with shipping charges and all...I couldn't believe it.
Title: Re: Anybody use/built the DR290 tops ?
Post by: DAVID_L_PERRY on January 06, 2007, 08:52:44 am
A review can be found here of my DR290's after a few months usage:-
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/prosoundhire/dr290%20review.htm

Make of it what you will

Cheers, Dave