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Title: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Justin Rygel on June 07, 2006, 02:20:19 pm
First off, let me say that I have no experience with any other DSP units, I am not a pro, and I have no ability to take fancy measurements, so take this all with a grain of salt.

I recently purchased a Peavey VSX26 for my church, it is taking care of our processing for a pair of EAW AS300e and LA400.  With the amount of difficulty I had finding useful information on this unit, I thought I’d share what I know now having one in use.

I bought a ‘demo’ unit for a $50 discount, it came with a manual that was labeled as ‘Preliminary'.  I downloaded the latest firmware (v1.03) from the Peavey website.

The VSX26 is pretty easy to use; it has buttons to go to each of the main functions and a navigation wheel to change settings for each function as well as select which input/output you are using.  All parameters are controllable.  The first screen you see upon start-up is a routing matrix where any combination of inputs -> outputs can be selected.  The standard functions are available: compression and delay on all channels, 27 band GEQ on A and B inputs, high and low pass filters (all standard types, 6 – 48 db/oct) on all outputs, 5 band parametric EQ on all outputs, all are fully programmable, no limitations by pre-configured templates or anything like that.  

I have seen some information that says an RTA, which doesn’t seem to be implemented yet.  The computer interface software is still non-existent; although, as easy as it was to use, I don’t see that as a really big deal (esp. for $450).

A couple features that are working that I like:  
The USB jack works perfectly and allows me to keep a backup of the settings on the USB flash drive I always have around, no need to worry about lugging computer along just to backup the DSP (I didn’t try to hook a computer to it to see how/if that worked).  It is a 3-input unit, allowing aux-fed subs, the mic input on the front panel needs to be used for the third input, and there is no compression or GEQ available for this input, but that shouldn’t be a big deal for aux-fed subs.  Input ‘A’ can be configured as an AES/EBU digital input, not something I plan to use or could test, but an interesting feature none the less . . .  could be useful with a DM1000 or TT24, keep out one D/A to A/D cycle . . .

The unit did add a barely perceptible amount of noise to the total system.  When I say ‘barely perceptible’, I mean that it was difficult tell the difference over the building’s/existing system’s noise floor (I did the install at 11:00 pm and was the only one there), not audible at all during Sunday morning.  The signal chain is currently as follows: CR1604VLZ-PRO (soon to be replaced with an O1V96) -> Rane ME15b (for BEs) -> VSX26 -> RMX amps (1450 and 1850HD).  Like I said, noise is not a big issue, but there is enough that it could become a problem with poor gain staging, I know that is always the case, but it seems to me that it is more often the case with digital gear (admittedly, I only use cheap digital gear).
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Matt Vivlamore on September 27, 2006, 11:34:41 am
how is the unit holding up?  

have you been able to use the computer interface yet?
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Justin Rygel on September 27, 2006, 07:18:38 pm
Everything still works just fine.  I am now running aux fed subs via the front input, settings are a little different for the front input (~ 12 dB hotter than the back inputs), and has no EQ available, but that's not really a problem for me.  The front panel interface is very easy to use and the USB drive port works so well that haven't had any reason to try to use the computer interface yet.  I was not able to open my configuration files saved on my flash drive with the software though, so I think there are still some issues there.

Since my last post I have upgraded from a CR1604-VLZ PRO to an O1V96, and spent a little more time setting up the gain staging correctly, and the additional noise has pretty much gone away; I can't hear any system noise over the cooling fans in the RMX amps, which are located just off stage.
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Tim Tyler on September 28, 2006, 10:05:00 am
Justin -
If you have continued problems with the flash drive, I suggest you go get the smallest (like 128) cheapest drive you can find.  There is an issue with the amount of current that some (larger)drives pull, and the VSX26 ends up not recognizing them.  Also, make sure the drive has a "vsx26" folder with a "presets" folder within that.  
The Peavey web site has a forum with substantive discussion and information on this piece.

Enjoy,

Tim Tyler
Detonator Sound
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Justin Rygel on September 28, 2006, 10:39:51 am
I have had no problems using the flash drive (256 MB) with the processor, I just haven't been able to open and edit the configuration files that were saved by the processor with the computer based software.
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Greg Green on October 04, 2006, 01:05:26 am
Have you noticed a hum on the A or B input connected to a mixer? The Vsx26 I have in the signal chain introduces a low level hum that the other dsp /eq devices do not....just curious.
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Justin Rygel on October 04, 2006, 12:16:11 pm
I have noticed a very low level (and low frequency, could be 60 Hz, but too quiet to really tell) hum in my subwoofers.  It may or may not be present in the mains, I can't tell, because it is quiet enough that even when the room is dead quiet (or as quiet as it gets anyway), I need to stick my head into the mouths of my LA400s to hear it, and I haven't gotten up on a ladder to put my ear next to the mains.  

I haven't tried any other DSP units, and before the only thing between the board and the PA was a Rane ME15b.  In any case, the O1V96 -> VSX26 -> RMX amps setup is quite a bit quieter than the previous CR1604 -> ME15b -> RMX amps setup in every way.  I honestly don't think anyone but myself to come into that room has ever noticed the hum, so its not a problem for me.
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Greg Green on October 11, 2006, 01:55:16 pm
That helps if you are hearing something of a hum....I've been doing A/B testing between the vsx26 a dcx2496. Consistently the vsx has hum when placed in the signal chain between A&H pa28 and Crown Xti4k. Have tried another Yamaha mixer as well with same results. Still waiting on manufacturer support of the vsx  to answer my question about it. My testing was to "upgrade" fro m the dcx unit to something else but with the current state of the vsx ( no remote control gui and quiesent noise design), I don't see the vsx as an upgrade path. I think I'm back to more testing of the Xti with built in dsp. At least with system architect, it can be controlled in great detail via it's gui capability. Meantime, it seems the dcx2496 is still my best "semi-reliable" solution.  Smile
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Tim Tyler on October 12, 2006, 09:23:09 am
Are you using ver 1.03 firmware?  My VSX26 is dead quiet.

As far as comparing the DCX to the VSX, If you explore the features, sound quality, support, the VSX is simply a cut above.  With the VSX you will not run out of memory if you try to use "too many" features.  

Cheers,

Tim Tyler
Detonator Sound
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Greg Green on October 12, 2006, 02:42:24 pm
Yes, I had to upgrade to the v103(May) when I got the unit. There was mention on the support sight about noise issues on earlier versions. My thought is, if it digital signal processing, there should be no hum or noise in a quesient state. I like the fact that this unit seems to have better build quality but functionality is not quite as good as the dcx, IMO. If you compare the on-unit vsx crossover menu to the dcx you'll see what I mean. Perhaps if they ever come out with the gui for this I would reconsider but in its present state I would make yet another price jump and just go to the dbx260. Without the remote control for foh, its not of much use for my application of a performing band. Perhaps for a permanent installation where it is set once and you don't need to adjust it would be ok...
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Don Boomer on October 27, 2006, 02:49:16 pm
"I have seen some information that says an RTA, which doesn’t seem to be implemented yet. The computer interface software is still non-existent"

Both are available as free downloads on our website
http://www.peavey.com/support/software/vsx26_presets.cfm

"My thought is, if it digital signal processing, there should be no hum or noise in a quesient state"

No digital has noise just like everything else.  The residual noise of the unit is -107dB.  The problem is that digital noise is more easily heard by the ear than analog noise.  Proper gain staging is very important if you are concerned about noise.  You probably want to set your amps to 20X gain for reasonable performance.
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Greg Green on November 01, 2006, 11:42:17 pm
Since I haven't had time to return the Vsx unit for a refund yet,thought I might as well update the firmware to get the new Autograph funtion. ( Peavey version of autoeq). Upgrading was easy enough.( good job on this piece) Just hook a reference mic up and let it start sampling with pink noise. Just ramps up the noise 6 times ( not full on all the time) and gives you some result in the GEQ for inputs A & B. Is it accurate? Don't know yet...haven't had a chance to compare with something I know is fairly accurate yet. The menu and process is very basic. No ability to limit the range or adjacent ranges. Can't set a prefered curve or room correction curve. Can't see the GEQ as its be adjusted. It just quits and you go to the Eq menu to see the results. Web site has no details other than here's how you run it.
Any more details from you Peavey support guys reading this?

and btw...why would someone pay for a 32x potential gain amp and cut it back to 20x gain because of noisy frontend processing?
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Don Boomer on November 02, 2006, 10:15:41 pm
You can set a preferred curve by dialing it into the GEQ and then and selecting the "averaging" option.

As far as setting the gain, it's not that the VSX is noisy (-107dB) ... it just a matter of setting it correctly for proper SN ratio.  It's probably incorrect with 32X gain with most mixers anyway (forget the VSX).  Most modern amps, even really big amps will drive to full power with about 2 volts in.  Most mixers will put out 8 volts or better before clipping.  Wasting those extra 6 volts or so constitutes mis-setting your gain structure and decreases your SN ratio by 16dB or so.  By turning down the sensitivity of your amplifier by 16 dB automatically increases your SN ratio by 16 dB.
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Tom Young on November 04, 2006, 08:38:44 am
I bought a new VSX 26 2 months ago and have had mixed, but promising, performance from it. I bought it specifically to drive my home playback system which has 2 sets of nearfield monitors (Mackie HR824's and KRK's w/ Yamaha power) and a Sunfire subwoofer. Using it in this manner would also allow me to thoroughly evaluate it for my lower budget loudspeaker system design projects.

Out of the box it exhibited a significant amount of hum and caused scrolling vertical lines on my TV set. These 2 conditions didn't occur befor in my system with various other DSP systems and it disappears when the VSX is powered down and hardwire bypassed.

Once I played with gain through the system, added an unbalanced-to-balanced transformer isolated interface (RDL, between the source (consumer HiFi preamp) and the VSX) and added power conditioning (SurgeX)..... the hum was reduced to an acceptable (barely audible) level. The hum bars would still come into the TV image and would disappear whenever I powered down the VSX 26.

Another glitch is that it doesn't retain the equalization I have applied in both the graphics (on inputs) and paramterics (on outputs). I painstakingly saved these as the sole preset (for the Mackies), but to no avail. Each time I powered the system down, the EQ was lost.

I tried 3 different USB stoarge cards to transfer the ver 1.3 firmware and all failed (the VSX simply wouldn't talk to the USB sticks). The dealer said he had the same problem and that a new Staples-branded storage card worked. So I bought one. It didn't work. I then dropped the VSX off at the dealer and they were able to transfer the new firmware for me using this USB stick.

Last night I reinstalled my VSX 26 and it appears to have less hum and also now retains the equalizer filters.

One other significant problem for me is in the processing choices (or lack thereof). There is no option to choose parametrics on the inputs versus the graphics and there are too few parametric filters on the outputs.

IMHO; in this day and age with the prevalence of Smaart (and other) high resolution measurement systems and the widely held observation that: 1) the chances that any frequency-related anomalies will fall on ISO 1/3-oct center frequencies are VERY slim and, 2) you are (also) extremely lucky to experience only 5 (or less) frequency-related anomalies...... those who employ such measurement systems need either the option to switch to parametric filters on the inputs OR have more (7-10 should be fine) filters on the outputs. I note that there is certainly a need for 1/3-octave graphics in live sound but it is widely considered that these need to be analog (or analog controlled). Accessing the graphics in the VSX for on-the-fly adjustments (aka: feedback) is just plain not gonna happen in kamikaze, real-world live sound conditions.

In my home listening environment (typically flawed but OK) I need 7-8 filters total. In live sound environments I also typically need 5-10 parametric filters per output. Sometimes a few more. Note that the subwoofer in question needs only 2 filters and this is not untypical for the live sound systems I work with.

I am aware that there is often a limit to the available DSP procssing available and this may be why the amount of equalization was restricted in this manner. Perhaps Don Boomer can confirm that this is why it is what it is ? If so; can there not be a choice to switch between graphic and parametric filters on the inputs ?

Overall this device has great promise as a very economical loudspeaker system processor. But I have never seen a new product take so long to get to the production stage and it appears we (owners) are now being used as Beta-testers.
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Don Boomer on November 04, 2006, 03:55:19 pm


The noise issue was eliminated with firmware upgrade 1.03.  It turned out certain combinations of filter styles and rates were incompatable.  We changed all the filters to high resolution models after about 3 weeks.  The current rev is 1.05


The VSX was not intended to be run unbalanced.  I've helped a few users and yes, transformers took care of the problem.


I don't know why you had problems saving presets.  You DO have to save parameters to a preset to be able to recall them.  I don't know why it worked for you after the firmware upgrade ... we didn't change anything there.  Maybe you missed hitting the confirmation button at the bottom??


We have had a number of users that were unable to utilize the USB function and there are few common reasons (assuming you were using a USB 2.0 stick).  Fragmentation errors on the stick will cause the VSX to not work correctly ... it doesn't take very many.  We directed almost all of the CPU to running audio and as a result there's not an abundance left over for houskeeping.  But the most difficulties that users have had is putting files in the proper folder/subfolders on the stick.  They MUST be in a very specific location.  You also have to wait about ten seconds for the VSX to recognize your thumb drive when you first plug it in (this may be the thing about different brands).  It is possible to start sending commands before the stick is ready to go.  On the one I most often use the stick sends out 2 sets of led flashes.  I get a little overanxious sometimes too.


The front end EQ is a graphic because the overwhelming number of customers demand it be so.  We may well offer an option in future firmware updates.  We have lots of plans.  We do offer that option on some of our more expensive units

Did you test out the Autograph automatic EQ setup function?

Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Tom Young on November 05, 2006, 08:33:25 am
Thanks, Don, for your replies.

I will try defragmenting my USB cards, though to date I have never had any problem with this and any other device/PC that I use these cards with.

Upon reading your reply and then re-reading the firmware instructions at your website, it now is clear to me that the firmware needs to be stored in a file with a very specific name. May I suggest you employ quotation marks around this file name on your website so that this instruction is more immediately clear and does not result in the confusion I have gone through ?

I failed to mention that prior to uploading ver 1.3 firmware I also had sporadic "motorboating" -like LF noise (audible when music was not being played) coming through my subwoofer and this is now gone (along with the hum). Great !

I'm not sure what you mean by the VSX 26 was not designed for unbalanced inputs. At one time or another virtually any/all pro audio (ie: balanced) equipment is used with (adapted to) unbalanced inputs and/or outputs and this seldom results in any significant problems (provided long lines are not in the equation, etc). This is not ideal, but it should work temporarily when the situation demands it. In fact; it appears to have 'worked' when I did this with my VSX 26 (it did not increase the hum or other noise). In the process of trying to reduce the hum I opted to buy the converter device and do not regret having it as a long-term interfacing solution for my system.

I am quite certain I set the preset correctly and the fact that it came back after I retrieved my device from my dealer (with all my filters intact) supports this.

I have no immediate interest nor need for Autograph, as I am a disciple and practitioner of manual measurement and optimization; including the acoustic environment, crossover selection, phase alignment between subs and fullrange devices and precision equalization via parametric filters. As I stated in my earlier post (and I am sure you are aware) the likelihood that the needed corrections in any electroacoustic system occur at ISO 1/-3-octave frequencies is very slim and the Q that is required seldom equals that of a 1/3-octave filter. Experience shows that attempting to correct specific frequency anomalies with set filters results in 'throwing out' lots of "good" signal content while often barely effecting the "bad".

I recognize that for the semi-skilled market that this device is aimed at a function such as Autograph has some appeal and may result in better response than that attempted by the novice sound system operator.

I am aware that the VSX 26 offers a lot of bang for the bucks it costs. And I do not wish to appear to be unreasonable. It just seems to me that the two functional shortcomings I have identified (choice of parametric EQ on inputs, more parametric filters on outputs) should be considered. I do not believe I am the only one who would appreciate these. I would love to use this device for my lower budget projects but these often require a greater degree of electroacoustic correction than I encounter in better funded projects.

Thanks again and feel free to keep this dialogue going if you wish to.
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Kent Clasen on November 05, 2006, 10:43:58 am
We have a very early production unit in stock.

I tried to use one in an unbalanced situation and it had a horrible hum and was replaced with another unit.  I tried every concievable transformer/grnd lift imaginable, to no avail.

Upon reading about the S/W update, one of my guys tried to update it and couldn't get it to read the USB drive. After reading Don's last post, my guess is the file name thing. So we will try again.

I want to try the computer GUI.

It is a very low budget device so I am not expecting miracles, but before I put it in an installation (we are a Peavey AA dealer) I want to make sure that it works in an acceptable, reliable manner.  I would like to compare it's noise, filter response, and phase to other units, if I ever have time....

I did use it to demo (balanced=no noise) some speakers for a church and found the 5 parametric filters enough using Smaart to analyize, then used the 1/3 oct to tweak to taste.  Granted, as Tom mentioned, some installs may require more parametric filters.





Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Don Boomer on November 05, 2006, 12:56:09 pm

"I will try defragmenting my USB cards, though to date I have never had any problem with this and any other device/PC that I use these cards with."

You probably don't have any Frag issues .. probably just had the files in the wrong place.  The VSX will automatically write the file structure it needs the first time you store a preset.  Firmware upgrades require setting up the files on an outside computer.

"Upon reading your reply and then re-reading the firmware instructions at your website, it now is clear to me that the firmware needs to be stored in a file with a very specific name. May I suggest you employ quotation marks around this file name on your website so that this instruction is more immediately clear and does not result in the confusion I have gone through ?"

I can do that if you think it will help

"I failed to mention that prior to uploading ver 1.3 firmware I also had sporadic "motorboating" -like LF noise (audible when music was not being played) coming through my subwoofer and this is now gone (along with the hum). Great !"

Yep!

"I'm not sure what you mean by the VSX 26 was not designed for unbalanced inputs. At one time or another virtually any/all pro audio (ie: balanced) equipment is used with (adapted to) unbalanced inputs and/or outputs and this seldom results in any significant problems (provided long lines are not in the equation, etc). This is not ideal, but it should work temporarily when the situation demands it. In fact; it appears to have 'worked' when I did this with my VSX 26 (it did not increase the hum or other noise). In the process of trying to reduce the hum I opted to buy the converter device and do not regret having it as a long-term interfacing solution for my system."

Anyone wishing to use unbalanced ins/outs will need 1:1 transformers

"I am quite certain I set the preset correctly and the fact that it came back after I retrieved my device from my dealer (with all my filters intact) supports this."

So you're saying you saved the presets but they would re-load?  When you power down/up the VSX will revert to the last saved preset.  If you made changes but didn't store them you would lose that portion.

"I have no immediate interest nor need for Autograph, as I am a disciple and practitioner of manual measurement and optimization; including the acoustic environment, crossover selection, phase alignment between subs and fullrange devices and precision equalization via parametric filters. As I stated in my earlier post (and I am sure you are aware) the likelihood that the needed corrections in any electroacoustic system occur at ISO 1/-3-octave frequencies is very slim and the Q that is required seldom equals that of a 1/3-octave filter. Experience shows that attempting to correct specific frequency anomalies with set filters results in 'throwing out' lots of "good" signal content while often barely effecting the "bad".

Yeah ... but I thought you'd be at least curious considering how poorly this function works on other units.  I think we've come up with a scheme that does no bad ... it does only things that can be improved with front end EQ.  All the rest, as you stated, has to be done on the back end.  We've done that with a series of presets for most of our speakers .... just plug in a factory preset.

"I recognize that for the semi-skilled market that this device is aimed at a function such as Autograph has some appeal and may result in better response than that attempted by the novice sound system operator."

"some appeal" ... man everybody and their uncle has been beating on me for months til we finished and included it. Shocked

"I am aware that the VSX 26 offers a lot of bang for the bucks it costs. And I do not wish to appear to be unreasonable. It just seems to me that the two functional shortcomings I have identified (choice of parametric EQ on inputs, more parametric filters on outputs) should be considered. I do not believe I am the only one who would appreciate these. I would love to use this device for my lower budget projects but these often require a greater degree of electroacoustic correction than I encounter in better funded projects."

Well it does have 5 PEQ filters per output compared to my competition's 2 or 3.  I can see, in the case of going into an internally processed system like your Mackie that more filters would be handy.  We really expected that most folks would be preforming the "crossover" with this unit.  Done that way you would have had 10 filters.  While more would be better ... there's only so much you can do without running out of CPU and cutting the  overall frequency response (like my competetion does).  Like I said ... there may very well be  a front end option in the future

"Thanks again and feel free to keep this dialogue going if you wish to."

Happy to!
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Don Boomer on November 05, 2006, 01:09:02 pm
We have a very early production unit in stock.

I tried to use one in an unbalanced situation and it had a horrible hum and was replaced with another unit.  I tried every concievable transformer/grnd lift imaginable, to no avail.


You had two problems ... one was fixed with a firmware update and the other would have been fixed with transformers.  So even though you fixed the "transformer" issue ... the firmware was the bad guy.

Upon reading about the S/W update, one of my guys tried to update it and couldn't get it to read the USB drive. After reading Don's last post, my guess is the file name thing. So we will try again.

the firmware goes in a folder titles "firmware" ... and that file goes in a folder titled "vsx26"

I want to try the computer GUI.

A free beta version is available on our website  http://peavey.com/support/software/vsx26_presets.cfm   It does not yet connect directly to the VSX in "live" mode.  You can however make any adjustments you want , save them to USB stick, and transfer them over ... either direction.  The full version should be available very soon

It is a very low budget device so I am not expecting miracles, but before I put it in an installation (we are a Peavey AA dealer) I want to make sure that it works in an acceptable, reliable manner.  I would like to compare it's noise, filter response, and phase to other units, if I ever have time....

Please do. I have and I think you'll find it quieter and with a high frequency output nearly an octave better than my competition

I did use it to demo (balanced=no noise) some speakers for a church and found the 5 parametric filters enough using Smaart to analyize, then used the 1/3 oct to tweak to taste.  Granted, as Tom mentioned, some installs may require more parametric filters.

Yep!  Good thing we offer more expensive units too  Very Happy  






Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Greg Green on November 12, 2006, 10:43:46 pm
After seeing what the noise floor levels were supposed to be (-110 or so), it occurred to me to hook one of my rta's up to the output of the vsx26 and sure enough there was the NOISE. But only on outputs 5 & 6. The funny thing was, if I used the standard "config" CFG2 ( no preset xover on 5 & 6) the noise was -70 and fluctuated. When I switched the config to CFG3 , it dropped back to -110. Then when I set the config back to CFG2 to reproduce, the level was ~ -90?? Power reset, and then back to the -70 noise.The noise increase showed up from 30 to perhaps 120hz and is very easy to reproduce. Seems to follow no crossover config in line with a given output. Anyones thought on whether this is firmware or I have a defective unit?
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review: question for Don Boomer
Post by: Justin Rygel on November 20, 2006, 05:40:28 pm
Don,

One thing that has been a little annoying with the VSX is that there is no visual representation of how hard my system is working from the VSX.  In other words, I'd like some way for the unit to tell me when the compressors (being used as limiters) are engaging.  Could the tri-color LEDs be toggled via software to turn yellow when the compressors engage, or are they hard-wired to the outputs?  This would be ideal, but I'd be okay with something screen-based as well . . . just to confirm that the limiters are working in the way I intended.

Thanks,
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review: question for Don Boomer
Post by: Don Boomer on November 20, 2006, 08:33:42 pm
That feature should be incorporated with the PC GUI goes to the "online" mode"
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Robert Fielder on April 17, 2007, 03:30:41 pm
Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I am comparing paper specs and user experiences between the VSX 26 and DCX2496.

Just noticed that the editor software for the VSX 26 is still listed as beta - it has never been released? The date on the software is 07/10/06.

Has the project been abandoned? That is far too long for something that even Behringer can deliver....
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Jeff Babcock on April 17, 2007, 04:18:39 pm
Robert,
It has not been abandoned, apparently there were some significant delays, and they had hoped to release it sometime quite a while ago but have yet to finish it for whatever reason.  There are many users anxious to get this.  Hopefully Don Boomer will let us know how progress is coming on this.

BTW, the existing editor works fine, it just doesn't support "Live" mode.  It's a wonderful tool for making presets.

Cheers
Jeff
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Robert Fielder on April 18, 2007, 12:34:45 pm
Jeff Babcock wrote on Tue, 17 April 2007 16:18

BTW, the existing editor works fine, it just doesn't support "Live" mode.  It's a wonderful tool for making presets.

Jeff:

Thanks for the update!

What is "Live" mode?

I don't have a Peavey, and have not looked at the software - currently researching the field to see what options exist for speaker management systems.

Did try a Behringer DCX2496 this past weekend, and was impressed with it - maybe because it worked OK, and the surprise is that Behringer can provide good stuff....then tried the software afterwards, and it worked OK. However, the software just set things on the unit, which was great - but nothing you could not do from the front panel. A lot more convenient, and far more than you can get with a DRPA.
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Jeff Babcock on April 18, 2007, 04:10:39 pm
Robert,
Live mode will give the user the ability to control all parameters of the VSX in REAL TIME from either a Mac or PC via a USB cable.  This means changes to Graphic EQ or Parametric eq, limiting, gains, routings, crossover types and slopes, delays, etc could all be done on the fly from a laptop at the gig.  You can download the interface from Peavey's website to see what the beta of this looks and feels like.  It's nicely laid out and makes configuration super-easy.  Currently all the changes you make can only be saved as a preset and then loaded into the VSX via a USB Memory stick.  When the Live mode update comes it will make this unnecessary, thus saving a lot of time and adding flexibility.

Cheers
Jeff
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Kent Clasen on April 27, 2007, 12:23:52 pm
Justin Rygel wrote on Wed, 07 June 2006 19:20



The unit did add a barely perceptible amount of noise to the total system.  When I say ‘barely perceptible’, I mean that it was difficult tell the difference over the building’s/existing system’s noise floor (I did the install at 11:00 pm and was the only one there), not audible at all during Sunday morning.  



The hiss from this unit is very audible IMO.  Perhaps not if your HVAC is noisy.  I have 2 units here, they both hiss.  This seems to be inherent.  I can mute the outputs and inputs, hiss is still there.  Unplug the unit from the amp, no hiss.  This is with the amp gains at 12 oclock. Unit at +4. This is with the default preset.  Noise is On output 1.

The other stranger noise problem is in 1 unit on config 1, with 1 2way xover, there is very low noise, low freq. intermittent sound, hard to describe, but some electronic sound produced with nothing plugged into it's input.  I switched cables, speakers, unplugged all inputs, still there.  Save preset come back, and it's gone.  Recall original preset comes back.  

I understand this is a budget unit, maybe it is ok for a club with high ambient noise, but not in churches etc. We already had one unit replaced that had a horrible buzz in it.
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Jeff Babcock on April 27, 2007, 01:01:31 pm
Kent,
I have not noticed this issue with my VSX26 at all, I find the noise to be sufficiently low on all of the outputs, comparable to other processors such as DR260 which I would think should be more than sufficient for even a very quiet environment.  Maybe this is an early production glitch or a grounding issue?  I don't know if it could be firmware related, probably not, but I'm on the latest firmware and happy with the VSX26's performance in that regard.  Maybe try posting about this in the peavey forums and see if Marty or Don can offer some insight.
Cheers
Jeff
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on April 27, 2007, 02:09:40 pm
Quote:

The hiss from this unit is very audible IMO...


I understand that the VSX26 output is capable of +24 which is definitely higher than your amp needs in order to produce full power. It's 4dB higher than the DRPA specs, for instance, and about 10dB higher than typical DRPA usage. Instead of turning your amps up halfway and listening, try turning your amps all the way down to start. Then bring up a CD (or whatever) on your mixer so that it shows rockin' LEDs and pump that into the VSX so it shows happy levels coming in. Only THEN do you move back to the amps and bring them carefully up to expected show SPL plus a another notch for headroom. Shut the CD off and listen once more for hiss. I'm betting it will be lower and I'm betting your amp volume knobs will be lower than halfway.

-Bink
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Jason Lavoie on May 03, 2007, 08:06:22 pm
I had noticed the hiss problem as well. the solution given by peavey was to turn down my amps.
that's all fine and dandy, but one of the reasons I use DSP boxes in my installs is so that I can leave the amps wide open and do my trim in the DSP (with a password) oops, VSX doesn't have that either. had to buy a security grille Sad

I compared the VSX26 side by side on the bench with a DEQ2496 and the difference in the noise floor at the output was significant. some settings had a small impact such as the input and output sensitivity, but no combination of settings on either unit would bring the pair to a point that I would consider equivalent.

Jason
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Kent Clasen on May 04, 2007, 11:35:34 am
Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Fri, 27 April 2007 19:09

Quote:

The hiss from this unit is very audible IMO...


I understand that the VSX26 output is capable of +24 which is definitely higher than your amp needs in order to produce full power. It's 4dB higher than the DRPA specs, for instance, and about 10dB higher than typical DRPA usage. Instead of turning your amps up halfway and listening, try turning your amps all the way down to start. Then bring up a CD (or whatever) on your mixer so that it shows rockin' LEDs and pump that into the VSX so it shows happy levels coming in. Only THEN do you move back to the amps and bring them carefully up to expected show SPL plus a another notch for headroom. Shut the CD off and listen once more for hiss. I'm betting it will be lower and I'm betting your amp volume knobs will be lower than halfway.

-Bink




Thanks for the info Bink.

You are correct, reducing the attenuator on the amps is the only way to get the hiss to be acceptable IMO.  I haven't used it in the intended church yet, but will let you know.  I think we will have enough gain.  I am not familiar with the DRPA (loud POP issue), but have used the 260 which has output +22dB without this issue.  This is the first of any DSP units I have used where it was an issue.

The LF intermittent noise gremelin went away when we switched to another VSX unit...errr.  So far, 2 of 3 have had an "issue".

I was hoping they have a low cost solution DSP, but not so sure about that now.  The PC GUI still doesn't work direct to the unit as far as I know...

Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Robert Fielder on May 04, 2007, 06:21:28 pm
This is actually humourous.

A Peavey with a hiss problem. After all the trash talk about Behringer, it turns out that the DCX2496 is quite silent, but the so-called superiour brand has the problem most accuse Behringer of.

Guess that eliminates one more DSP from my short list. Down to a DCX2496 or a dBx 260.....
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Bennett Prescott on May 05, 2007, 12:46:02 pm
Robert Fielder wrote on Fri, 04 May 2007 18:21

A Peavey with a hiss problem. After all the trash talk about Behringer, it turns out that the DCX2496 is quite silent, but the so-called superiour brand has the problem most accuse Behringer of.

A little research would show you that the reason most of the advanced users on this board refuse to deal with Behringer has nothing to do with whether their products actually work.
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Robert Fielder on May 06, 2007, 12:25:32 am
[quote title=Bennett Prescott wrote on Sat, 05 May 2007 12:46}
A little research would show you that the reason most of the advanced users on this board refuse to deal with Behringer has nothing to do with whether their products actually work.[/quote]
Bennett:

Sorry, but the most given reason is that Behringers: are noisey, unreliable, and represent intellectual theft, in that order from what I have read.

Which does not alter my point, or the humour in the situation.
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on May 06, 2007, 10:44:55 am
Robert Fielder wrote on Sat, 05 May 2007 23:25


Bennett Prescott wrote on Sat, 05 May 2007 12:46}
A little research would show you that the reason most of the advanced users on this board refuse to deal with Behringer has nothing to do with whether their products actually work. -end quote
Bennett:

Sorry, but the most given reason is that Behringers: are noisey, unreliable, and represent intellectual theft, in that order from what I have read.

Which does not alter my point, or the humour in the situation.



I thought the order was 1) lack of intellectual integrity 2) substitution of substandard components, and 3) poor customer service. Noise performance AFAIK was similar to the products they patterned after with the exception of cases where they left out a shield in a direct box transformer and stuff like that. With digital products there's only a handful of companies making the chip sets used so performance as limited by the chip sets will be similar.

Of course my ordering and significance of these considerations may change with time, product, and personal bias, as may your sense of humor.

JR

edit: spelling and quotes
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on May 06, 2007, 11:13:33 am
John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Sun, 06 May 2007 07:44

I thought the order was 1) lack of intellectual integrity 2) substitution of substandard components, and 3) poor customer service...


Yeah, those are the sweeping truths. Adding 4) inferior audio throughput would have to be dependent on specific product. Some Behringer products were/are good sounding for the price, others shouldn't be recommended at all. Digital Behringer products, in general, sound much better than analog Behringer.

I feel that Peavey remains far ahead in integrity, components and service and in many cases, sound quality. You get what you pay for... Of course, we'd all like to see the VSX computer GUI finished and there's probably some reallocation of Hartley's resources that would enable a more prompt release date but it's his company to do with as he sees fit. He's a willful maverick and an independent cuss but he's so much more ethical than Uli it's not even funny.

-Bink
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 06, 2007, 03:53:22 pm
Bink-

I agree about the interesting allocation of development funds at Peavey.

I'd love to try a VSX48 in our monitor rigs, and potentially that means a 12 piece order.  The live GUI might be less of an issue in that application, but I think it needs to ready for prime time as part of our purchasing decision.

Time will tell, I guess.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Robert Fielder on May 08, 2007, 09:39:27 am
I listed the slams against Behringer according to the numbers as I have read them. Others will have read different messages.

However, the number of messages I received that complained about how Behringer copies technology from other companies was actually very few, and often added as an afterthought.

The most common reasons for not using Behringer that I have been given when asked, and that I have seen reading other discussions here and elsewhere, was that first, they are noisy, and second, they are unreliable.

What I found most fascinating was when I asked on two DJ forums about the Behringer CX2310 crossover. There were two basic responses - those that had one, loved it, found it quiet and reliable even after a few years of service. Those that did not have one and had never used one said they were noisy and unreliable. There was exactly one person who had tried the CX2310 and found it too noisy and decided not to buy one - but he qualified his response by admitting he had cranked the levels way up to get the noise.

Given that sort of response, what soft of conclusion would YOU come to?

I am not tring to start a Behringer war, or hijack this disucssion - I am just explaining my earlier comments.

However, all this does bring me to a question - if many people say that Behringer is known to borrow technology, how do they explain the DCX2496? My understanding is that it was released either at the same time as the DRPA/DR 260 (whichever came first), or else it was a little earlier. How can you claim such a product is based on stolen technology when that technology has not been released yet?

If my understanding of the release dates is incorrect, please let me know. If there is something else I am not aware of, please advise. This is something I have been wondering about....

Also - there have been a few comments that the VSX 48 does not have the same noise issues that the VSX 26 has. However, I have seen messages that indicate that the VSX 48 is not available. Is this because it is out of stock, or has the VSX 48 not started shipping yet?
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on May 08, 2007, 11:01:42 am
Robert Fielder wrote on Tue, 08 May 2007 08:39

I listed the slams against Behringer according to the numbers as I have read them. Others will have read different messages.

However, the number of messages I received that complained about how Behringer copies technology from other companies was actually very few, and often added as an afterthought.

The most common reasons for not using Behringer that I have been given when asked, and that I have seen reading other discussions here and elsewhere, was that first, they are noisy, and second, they are unreliable.

What I found most fascinating was when I asked on two DJ forums about the Behringer CX2310 crossover. There were two basic responses - those that had one, loved it, found it quiet and reliable even after a few years of service. Those that did not have one and had never used one said they were noisy and unreliable. There was exactly one person who had tried the CX2310 and found it too noisy and decided not to buy one - but he qualified his response by admitting he had cranked the levels way up to get the noise.

Given that sort of response, what soft of conclusion would YOU come to?

I am not tring to start a Behringer war, or hijack this disucssion - I am just explaining my earlier comments.

No explanation required. We all form opinions based on our personal experience.
Quote:


However, all this does bring me to a question - if many people say that Behringer is known to borrow technology, how do they explain the DCX2496? My understanding is that it was released either at the same time as the DRPA/DR 260 (whichever came first), or else it was a little earlier. How can you claim such a product is based on stolen technology when that technology has not been released yet?

If my understanding of the release dates is incorrect, please let me know. If there is something else I am not aware of, please advise. This is something I have been wondering about....

They are indeed known to "borrow" and pattern their products after other company's successful products. That doesn't mean every product has to be an exact copy of somebody else. I'm not sure how you are defining the category. PV has been making DSP based digital crossovers for years before these other guys thought about entering the category.

I would love to see more of his engineering resources applied to novel solutions, there has to be less iconic category killers, to copy these days.

Quote:


Also - there have been a few comments that the VSX 48 does not have the same noise issues that the VSX 26 has. However, I have seen messages that indicate that the VSX 48 is not available. Is this because it is out of stock, or has the VSX 48 not started shipping yet?



I have no idea about either of these units, well after my time. PV reps are known to lurk here from time to time as evidenced by the old thread you resurrected, or you could ask them on a Peavey forum. You might get a more comprehensive answer if you don't begin with derogatory comments about the product series.

JR
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Don Boomer on May 09, 2007, 08:11:29 am
Also - there have been a few comments that the VSX 48 does not have the same noise issues that the VSX 26 has. However, I have seen messages that indicate that the VSX 48 is not available. Is this because it is out of stock, or has the VSX 48 not started shipping yet?

The "noise issue" is really a misunderstanding by most users that think they are having a problem.  The noise spec is -107 dB below full scale ... hardly noisey.  But if you use high gain amplifiers (ours included) you need to scale back the sensitivity probably about 15 dB or so.  Unfortunately we did not provide an adjustment on the unit itself so the correction must be made on the amplifier end od the line instead of the crossover output, which is the way more people are used to doing it.  Either way it comes out the same electrically.  If you use Crest amps and set the gain switch to x20 there is no problem.  There is a white paper on our website (that is very similar to they way DBX would have you set up their systems)   http://peavey.com/assets/literature/additional/00420060_7.pd f.

As far as the VSX48 being different ... it is not.  VSX48's have not yet been released for general sale (although they can be had in a beta release ... check with your dealer)
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Robert Fielder on May 09, 2007, 10:32:20 am
Don Boomer wrote on Wed, 09 May 2007 08:11

The "noise issue" is really a misunderstanding by most users that think they are having a problem.  The noise spec is -107 dB below full scale ... hardly noisey.

Don:

Thanks for the response, and the explanation. Much appreciated!

Don Boomer wrote on Wed, 09 May 2007 08:11

As far as the VSX48 being different ... it is not.  VSX48's have not yet been released for general sale (although they can be had in a beta release ... check with your dealer)

That answers my question, and my confusion, as to why there are both reports on how the VSX works, and that it is not available. The reports did seem to contradict each other....
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Mike Pyle on May 09, 2007, 08:17:42 pm
Don Boomer wrote on Wed, 09 May 2007 05:11

...if you use high gain amplifiers (ours included) you need to scale back the sensitivity probably about 15 dB or so.  Unfortunately we did not provide an adjustment on the unit itself so the correction must be made on the amplifier end od the line instead of the crossover output, which is the way more people are used to doing it.  



I'm not familiar with the VSX26. It sounds to me like you are saying there is no output gain control for each frequency band. Is that correct? Seems a bit risky for those folks who may have 1000 watt amp channels driving 100 watt horn drivers to walk away from an amp that is attenuated that much to match the bandpass gains.

edited to add quote.
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Tom Reid on May 10, 2007, 10:20:55 am
Mike Pyle wrote on Wed, 09 May 2007 19:17

Don Boomer wrote on Wed, 09 May 2007 05:11

...if you use high gain amplifiers (ours included) you need to scale back the sensitivity probably about 15 dB or so.  Unfortunately we did not provide an adjustment on the unit itself so the correction must be made on the amplifier end od the line instead of the crossover output, which is the way more people are used to doing it.  



I'm not familiar with the VSX26. It sounds to me like you are saying there is no output gain control for each frequency band. Is that correct? Seems a bit risky for those folks who may have 1000 watt amp channels driving 100 watt horn drivers to walk away from an amp that is attenuated that much to match the bandpass gains.

edited to add quote.


IMHO,

Anyone using 1000w amp on 100w horn, replacing or testing a DSP, and doesn't calculate gain stages, is deserving of the outcome.
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 10, 2007, 04:13:17 pm
I suspect the band-pass attenuation occurs in the digital domain rather than at the analog outputs.  You can reduce the band-pass output level, but not the accompanying noise that comes after the D/A conversion and output amp.

If I'm wrong, Don Boomer or Marty McCann will step in to correct me, I hope.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Mike Pyle on May 10, 2007, 06:59:25 pm
Tim McCulloch wrote on Thu, 10 May 2007 13:13

I suspect the band-pass attenuation occurs in the digital domain rather than at the analog outputs.  You can reduce the band-pass output level, but not the accompanying noise that comes after the D/A conversion and output amp.

If I'm wrong, Don Boomer or Marty McCann will step in to correct me, I hope.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc


Yeah, I downloaded the manual and see that the signal levels are adjustable, so I suppose you are correct. So what do other mfgrs do differently? I have variety of other dsp and they are all just about dead silent with the amp gains all the way up.
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Tom Manchester on May 11, 2007, 12:18:25 am
First gig with the new VSX26 and it was trouble free. Can't wait to get all my stuff dialed in with it so I can have different limiter and gain settings for all my possible rig combinations. I like it so far!
Title: Re: Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Don Boomer on May 13, 2007, 11:06:03 am
Mike Pyle wrote on Thu, 10 May 2007 17:59

Tim McCulloch wrote on Thu, 10 May 2007 13:13

I suspect the band-pass attenuation occurs in the digital domain rather than at the analog outputs.  You can reduce the band-pass output level, but not the accompanying noise that comes after the D/A conversion and output amp.

If I'm wrong, Don Boomer or Marty McCann will step in to correct me, I hope.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc


Yeah, I downloaded the manual and see that the signal levels are adjustable, so I suppose you are correct. So what do other mfgrs do differently? I have variety of other dsp and they are all just about dead silent with the amp gains all the way up.


Tim ... yes, you are correct.



Mike ... The VSX is +24 dB full scale while some popular units are +14 dB.  If you plug that one straight in and then switch to a VSX 26 it will appear to have more noise.  But in fact it actually is a fraction of a decibel quieter.  The trouble with a +14 output is when you use it with a +24 mixer then you arre throwing away 10 dB of SN ratio in the board.

Title: Updates Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on March 29, 2008, 01:09:51 am
Old thread resurrection (But I remain 2 years behind the bleeding edge - so you may collectively endure the pain for me).

I received a single VSX26 unit today. Just for fun I decided to throw it into the breach "cold". (The gig is hardcore of the butt hat variety - so it's all kind of moot as far as risking "show quality" goes).

Currently evaluating as an upgrade for an 8X bi-amped monitor rig to replace an eclectic collection of analog crossovers.

Initial observations are:

Not noisy - (my amps are not wide open.) I listened for a while before doors with no other folks in the room.

The GUI does not work online! It's 2 years into this thing.  (What's up with that?) USB stick works fine if you catch the specific, named sub-folder instructions.

I ended up making a profile in the PC software - and saved it to a memory stick.

Front panel is well thought out - decent and readable. Very quick to set 2 way crossover to a workable point with known spec. (but I elected to run with the mem stick config).

There seems to be an anomaly in the Configuration menu (different setup conventions between the PC software and the unit's interface - specifically in the way an input to output matrix is displayed).

Unit seems to work correctly when loaded off of the USB stick.

I am only using it for Xover and (will use) output PEQ and maybe output delay for the 2 respective monitor channels, when I get a chance to dive in and measure.

Initial reactions are good for the price. No power switch (OK - but drives me nuts). GUI from PC does not work. I can't see the unit - it's in the monitor amp racks - so no idea if the the signal lights work).

If they get this GUI to work I may just go with these. It's not Ulinger, less Geld than other comparable choices. "Autograph" feature looks interesting - but have not tried it yet.
Title: Re: Updates Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Steve Hurt on March 29, 2008, 10:08:46 am
Tony "T" Tissot wrote on Sat, 29 March 2008 01:09


If they get this GUI to work I may just go with these.



I'd buy a VSX48 in a heartbeat if the GUI worked.

Oh well!


<edit sp>
Title: Re: Updates Peavey VSX26 Review
Post by: Grant Conklin on March 31, 2008, 04:54:10 pm
Hello Tony-
The last word I heard straight from Peavey is that the GUI will not ever work.  The company that they bought their processors from promised way more than they could deliver, and there simply isn't enough horsepower to pull everything off that they had hoped.  They have some R&D going on, and some possible AA products that may make it to the Peavey side, but for now, no GUI controlled processors.  I was bummed when I first heard this news as well.  

I've used the autograph feature, but then I do my best to replace the resultant graphic eq w/ parametric eq's, and test it with my ears.  You'll want your mic to be around 6-10 feet from the speaker.  The cool thing about Autograph is that it makes adjustments, and then listens to see if those adjustments actually changed anything.  If there is no change, it takes the unnecessary adjustment away.  This is info straight from Marty at Peavey.

Going to Smaart training next week, so I plan on upgrading my tools and methods.

The VSX 48 does not have graphic eq or Autograph, but rather 6 parametrics on each of the inputs.  

Thanks,
Grant
Title: Update: Peavey VSX26 - Goes To The "Trash Pile of History"
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on April 13, 2008, 09:57:19 pm
Oh how I really wanted to love the VSX26. Good company - Peavey - nice folks. The right price for a fairly simple set of DSP functions. Nice controls. Decent editor (the version that links from PC to device does not work). I would love to see them succeed.

But the noise from this VSX26 unit can only be explained as: low noise, low-mid frequency (with some higher "harmonics"), intermittent sound. All very easy to see with even a simple PAA3. It sounds like air handlers, which explains why it did not bother me on first use at a gig last week.

I had a chance to bring it in the shop and listen - it is tremendously annoying.

No amount of gain structure changes (anywhere) mitigated the problem.

A/B against DRPA, DBX 223XL, and a Rane MX22 (all really inexpensive Xovers) provided the reference.

I did download and install the latest firmware, and tried various combinations of gain settings everywhere in the chain. Nothing gets rid of it.

Is it still usable? Probably. The "problem" does not get louder when cranked, it's only noticeable when no program is present.

In my case it's only for bi-amped monitors. But still extremely annoying.

1/4 of the time I am hired by the "act" - and I hate to have that sound coming over monitors that don't have a signal on them.
Title: Re: Update: Peavey VSX26 - Goes To The "Trash Pile of History"
Post by: Jeff Babcock on April 14, 2008, 12:18:31 pm
Tony, I have not experienced this issue and have worked with several VSX26's.  I would contact Peavey support.
Title: Re: Update: Peavey VSX26 - Goes To The "Trash Pile of History"
Post by: Marty McCann on April 14, 2008, 06:19:55 pm
Tony,

This tread actually goes back a couple of years, and although some users noted experiencing a noise issue, most do not have this problem.

The VSX-26 was designed for live audio, and the A/D - D/A circuitry is assuming that the operator is going to hit it with Rock and Roll performance levels.  

You reported your dissatisfaction due to noise issues, but you did not state the circumstances under which you experienced your reported results.

What make and model power amplifiers were you using?

As stated many times the optimum noise floor results when the amplifiers have a X's 20 gain structure.  Even current Peavey models have a X's 40 function, and although not always noisy with this gain, if so, it is a simple matter of reducing the sensitivity with the level controls.

The VSX-26 will NOT work in an unbalanced application. PERIOD.  There are amplifiers out there that no matter what the rated power, they have a 0.775 Volt sensitivity, which means that they can be way over X's 20 or X's 40's.  I have seen amplifiers with 0.775 Volt sensitivity that have a Voltage gain of X's 140.

Also did you confirm that you have the latest version of Firmware, i.e. 0.106?  


Marty
Title: Update: Peavey VSX26
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on April 14, 2008, 06:51:42 pm
Yes of course balanced (please! Laughing ). Of course it's an old thread -but the most relevant one on the board.

If you know the secret - I'm all ears, as I would love 3 more of these so I don't have to buy Padrick's DRs.

It is a barley perceptible (but is measurable) "throbbing" sound. As I said - it's just about what air handling noise sounds like in a commercial room.

From the post:

I did download and install the latest firmware (yesterday - from the site).

And tried various combinations of gain settings everywhere in the chain. Nothing gets rid of it.

(Peavey site is down again BTW (http://www.peavey.com/))

# #

PLX amplifiers - specifically 3602 on lows and 1602 on highs.

Board AH 2200.

Removed everything from the signal chain except the VSX
Reduced gain into, in it and out of it, reduced amp gain settings.

I know it isn't the board or the amps, and I've tried every possible combination of gain, before, in and after the device.
Title: Re: Update: Peavey VSX26
Post by: Peter Etheredge on May 28, 2008, 10:35:54 am
So did we ever come to a final conclusion on the VSX26 as far as the hum thing is concerned?  There seems to be a lot of conflicting reports on it.

I currently have a DR260 on an install but would like to go to something that has at least 3-inputs so that I can aux feed subs (yes I know that to do this with the VSX26 it involves a "skanky hack" with the RTA input but I don't need anything fancy).  It would be nice if it could be a decent "budget" unit that I could possibly just trade the DR260 for, especially since it's just doing some simple crossover/delay for some QSC HPR's and frankly I feel like the DR260 is overkill.

Tony I know that you and Elliot had some better luck with the BBE DS 48 but I'm still not sure of the "stigma" attached to it (the Peavey seems to have less to me).

Thoughts anyone?



-pete
Title: Re: Update: Peavey VSX26
Post by: John Horvath on May 28, 2008, 12:25:51 pm
Peter Etheredge wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 09:35

I currently have a DR260 on an install but would like to go to something that has at least 3-inputs so that I can aux feed subs

Xilica XP-3060 has three inputs.



Peter Etheredge wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 09:35

(yes I know that to do this with the VSX26 it involves a "skanky hack" with the RTA input but I don't need anything fancy).

Xilica XP-3060 requires no skanky hack.



Peter Etheredge wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 09:35

It would be nice if it could be a decent "budget" unit that I could possibly just trade the DR260 for, especially since it's just doing some simple crossover/delay for some QSC HPR's and frankly I feel like the DR260 is overkill.

Xilica XP-3060 < $600.



Peter Etheredge wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 09:35

Tony I know that you and Elliot had some better luck with the BBE DS 48 but I'm still not sure of the "stigma" attached to it (the Peavey seems to have less to me).

Xilica XP-3060, no stigma included.


Sorry to sound like a broken record, but it's a great unit.
Title: Re: Update: Peavey VSX26
Post by: Robert Fielder on May 28, 2008, 02:18:26 pm
John Horvath wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 12:25


Xilica XP-3060 has three inputs.

Neat - I had not heard of the Xlica line before.

And they are made in Canada!!! I Richmond Hill, not far from my home, just across Toronto.

Mind you, I have not yet found any Canadian retailers that list the products......

Sounds like they are price competitive with the dBx DR 260, at least in the USA. And the software looks advanced over what is available for the DR260, or the software I use with my Behringer DCX2496.

The DCX2496 is working well enough at this time, but it is good to know what the options are for future reference.....
Title: Re: Update: Peavey VSX26
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on May 28, 2008, 07:47:02 pm
Peter Etheredge wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 07:35

So did we ever come to a final conclusion on the VSX26 as far as the hum thing is concerned?  There seems to be a lot of conflicting reports on it.




I have, can't say what "we" are doing. Except that others have thrown the VSX in the trash. It's just a noisy unit.
You would not believe the "weapons-grade" BS being spouted by Peavey tech support on the forums:

"The VSX is a fixed gain device relative to the Analog to Digital(D/A) and Digital to Analog (A/D) converters.

Ok with you so far

"The digital domain was set for what I would call Rock and Roll applications where the system is definitely driven hard. In a typical Tavern or concert hall, the noise floor of the system would be masked by the ambient noise produced by the audience."

OK - So it is noisy? Unless you are in a really loud room, and then you can't actually hear it? Ever heard of sound check - you know - where first impressions are formed?

"When a DSP device, such as the VSX-26 is used for less demanding applications, it is necessary to reduce the sensitivity at the power amplifier so that the A/D and D/A converters use more bits, which also reduces the perception of the noise floor."

WTF? - How about when nothing is connected to it? Just which "more" bits to do you want me to use?

...(and BTW what the heck is "less demanding" supposed to mean? - I seem to recall outdoor Symphony and Chamber performances as a lot more demanding than Rock and Roll....)

Title: Re: Update: Peavey VSX26
Post by: Jason Lavoie on May 28, 2008, 10:07:11 pm
basically it is an OK piece if you are ok with treating it as a fixed sensitivity stage where you have to work your entire gain structure around keeping that one piece happy.
turn down the amps and turn up whatever is before it and the noise floor is acceptable, but it shouldn't be so picky.

that, plus the <don't dare hook it to anything unbalanced> noises make it not worth my time. I have enough things to babysit. I want my DSP to sit, heel. good dog..

Jason
Title: Re: Update: Peavey VSX26
Post by: Jason Lavoie on May 28, 2008, 10:08:09 pm
Robert Fielder wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 14:18

Mind you, I have not yet found any Canadian retailers that list the products......



In Canada they are distributed exclusively by White Radio

Jason
Title: Re: Update: Peavey VSX26
Post by: Robert Fielder on May 28, 2008, 10:52:24 pm
Jason Lavoie wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 22:08

Robert Fielder wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 14:18

Mind you, I have not yet found any Canadian retailers that list the products......


In Canada they are distributed exclusively by White Radio

Actually, the Xilica web site lists Martech in Edmonton as their distributors.

When I emailed Xilica to see who in the GTA sold the products, they forwarded my message to Barry at Martech. He forwareded it to Warren at Ashen White in Toronto.

Warren provided a quote for the XP-3060. The quote is just a little cheaper than the dBx Driverack 260 in this area. However, both Martech and Ashen White claim that the Xilica performs and sounds better than a DR260.....

Perhaps White Radio is a retailer who handles Xilica products in your area?
Title: Re: Update: Peavey VSX26
Post by: Jason Lavoie on May 29, 2008, 09:06:24 am
Robert Fielder wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 22:52



Perhaps White Radio is a retailer who handles Xilica products in your area?



*sigh* nope. just another casualty.. White radio used to distribute a lot of products (to contractors and retailers) and over the last year or two they've been losing brands left right and center to companies like Martech.

it's still on their line card at http://www.whiteradio.com/audio_video.htm
the funny part is, as they've removed products they haven't shortened the page, so you can tell by all the blank space how much is missing..
the writing's on the wall at White Radio.

Jason
Title: Re: Update: Peavey VSX26
Post by: Jeff Babcock on May 29, 2008, 10:53:44 am
Tony "T" Tissot wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 19:47


I have, can't say what "we" are doing. Except that others have thrown the VSX in the trash. It's just a noisy unit.
You would not believe the "weapons-grade" BS being spouted by Peavey tech support on the forums:



Tony,
I don't think there are that many that have thrown the VSX in the trash.

I do think that the gain structure setting of the VSX was a mistake by Peavey.  

It SOUNDS like a good idea but in practical use most users will not structure their gain around the unit (not driving it hard enough, and not reducing amp gain on the other end).  If you don't follow this, then YES it is noisy, but that is not because the hardware is noisy but simply because there is too much gain after the unit.

It IS possible to have a quiet system with the VSX, but not if you do not carefully set up gain structure.

My issues were not so much with the VSX sound quality but rather the whole live GUI fiasco.  That's done with long ago now, and I still have a couple VSX units that are working fine.  They live in amp racks with a couple of presets to choose from.  It's simple and works well.
Title: Re: Update: Peavey VSX26
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on May 29, 2008, 11:54:42 am
Jeff Babcock wrote on Thu, 29 May 2008 07:53


I don't think there are that many that have thrown the VSX in the trash.



Nor did I say "how many."

And I am not going on what I think. Others, on PV's forum, have said that they stopped using it.
Title: Re: Update: Peavey VSX26
Post by: Peter Etheredge on May 29, 2008, 12:08:51 pm
John Horvath wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 11:25

Peter Etheredge wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 09:35

I currently have a DR260 on an install but would like to go to something that has at least 3-inputs so that I can aux feed subs

Xilica XP-3060 has three inputs.



Peter Etheredge wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 09:35

(yes I know that to do this with the VSX26 it involves a "skanky hack" with the RTA input but I don't need anything fancy).

Xilica XP-3060 requires no skanky hack.



Peter Etheredge wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 09:35

It would be nice if it could be a decent "budget" unit that I could possibly just trade the DR260 for, especially since it's just doing some simple crossover/delay for some QSC HPR's and frankly I feel like the DR260 is overkill.

Xilica XP-3060 < $600.



Peter Etheredge wrote on Wed, 28 May 2008 09:35

Tony I know that you and Elliot had some better luck with the BBE DS 48 but I'm still not sure of the "stigma" attached to it (the Peavey seems to have less to me).

Xilica XP-3060, no stigma included.


Sorry to sound like a broken record, but it's a great unit.


So what's that about the Xilica XP-3060?  Laughing

Couple of questions about it though:

1) Doing a search here says there is no way to tell if it's in limit or not - how hard it it to set the gain structure and such then?
2) Where would I get one?  I can't seem to find any anywhere.  Also in relation to that what are the odds I'd be able to trade/sell the DR260 so that I don't have to add any money to this deal - this part is crucial.


Tony -

That marking stuff is almost on the level of Bose  Shocked   Some very interesting stuff to think about....

Also, in regards to the BBE unit, should I go down that road, how much of an issue is the whole clipping thingy?  Obviously I'll set up my gain structure right and use limiters, especially as this system is used by, to put it nicely, amateurs, but if someone starts to hit the limiters that I set up will the sound start to distort?  I guess my main concern would be running into distortion at some point.  Any other comments on that unit?  These questions apply to anyone else who has used it.


Thanks!


-pete
Title: Re: Update: Peavey VSX26
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 29, 2008, 01:23:13 pm
Peter Etheredge wrote on Thu, 29 May 2008 11:08

Also, in regards to the BBE unit, should I go down that road, how much of an issue is the whole clipping thingy?  Obviously I'll set up my gain structure right and use limiters, especially as this system is used by, to put it nicely, amateurs, but if someone starts to hit the limiters that I set up will the sound start to distort?  I guess my main concern would be running into distortion at some point.  Any other comments on that unit?  These questions apply to anyone else who has used it.

Thanks!
-pete

Pete-

ANY system will/can distort at the hands of the clueless, inept, uncaring, or just plain brain-dead.  Setting up a system that clips all at once is the "pro" way to to things, but has implications.  Tim Padrick has posted a couple of times about incremental gain staging to help avoid catastrophic clipping and failure.  It might be instructive to find those posts...

If an operator is accustomed to hearing a system under stress, the operator will assume that "sound" to be normal or even desirable.  No amount of system-protective limiting will stop that sound, and in the hands of those who can only make "that sound" any rig is in jeopardy.

There is no magic bullet to fix the human operator problem... unless it's between the eyes or at the base of the skull.  Save the expensive silver bullets for werewolves... Wink

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Update: Peavey VSX26
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on May 29, 2008, 01:59:54 pm
Peter Etheredge wrote on Thu, 29 May 2008 09:08


Also, in regards to the BBE unit, should I go down that road, how much of an issue is the whole clipping thingy?
-pete


As Tim said, the whole gain structure matters.


The BBE did "screech" when we accidentally went (input) above nominal. (Sorry I don't have numbers.) But it was the first time out, easily corrected by setting a proper gain structure from monitor board to the unit.

Easily fixed and prevented from happening a second time.

- As you know, almost all gear is "digital." If you've done any recording you've probably heard the sound. Most outboard gear (at least to my experience) have schemes that mitigate the digital over-driven screech. The BBE appears to allow you to hear your mistake. In any case I do not consider that a problem for an "attended" system with a competent operator.
Title: Re: Update: Peavey VSX26
Post by: Justin Rygel on June 02, 2008, 08:12:14 pm
Wow, I didn't expect to see this thread come back . . .

Jeff Babcock wrote on Thu, 29 May 2008 15:53


It SOUNDS like a good idea but in practical use most users will not structure their gain around the unit (not driving it hard enough, and not reducing amp gain on the other end).  If you don't follow this, then YES it is noisy, but that is not because the hardware is noisy but simply because there is too much gain after the unit.

It IS possible to have a quiet system with the VSX, but not if you do not carefully set up gain structure.




I actually eventually went to the trouble of carefully setting the gain structure of the whole system with the VSX26 using in-line pads, and the results were very good: when the building was empty, and HVAC off, I couldn't hear the system noise without going up on a ladder and putting my ear next to the horn exit.

I don't know if that should have been necessary, but I learned a lot while calculating out all the settings and pads in the signal path, and I took a little more care than might otherwise be necessary because this is a system that is often run by relatively inexperienced personnel, and we had a couple compression driver get blown . . . so the system is set-up with the gain knobs on the amps turned all the way up with the devices before that getting the signal to the proper level for that to work . . .

Long story short: we ended up adding a delay ring so we needed to change to a 4x8, and ended up replacing the VSX26 with a Sabine NAV480.  I can't hear a huge difference in sound quality, but the Sabine definitely has a lower noise floor and is therefore more forgiving of poor gain structure.
Title: Re: Update: Peavey VSX26
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on June 02, 2008, 09:14:31 pm
Justin Rygel wrote on Mon, 02 June 2008 17:12

 I can't hear a huge difference in sound quality, but the Sabine definitely has a lower noise floor and is therefore more forgiving of poor gain structure.


That last phrase - "forgiving of a poor gain structure" is the BS PV wants you to believe. Please do not perpetuate the fiction that the problem is somewhere else.

Noise is there with a "regular gain structure." Noise is still there with a highly optimized gain structure.

2008. DSP should not dictate gain structure in such a draconian way.

Quick - name any other device that introduces that much noise.

It's like one of those political "wag the dog" issues - floated to get your mind off real issues of substance.