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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => LAB Subwoofer FUD Forum Archive => Topic started by: David on June 08, 2004, 07:09:11 pm

Title: still wondering
Post by: David on June 08, 2004, 07:09:11 pm
Any news on the 10" (Eminence HL10) sub?index.php/fa/162/0/
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Graeme Goodacre [Centauri on June 09, 2004, 07:47:36 am
I tried to do a simulation with this driver ages ago, and it doesn't appear to be a good candidate for a horn sub - seems to want a very small throat and large rear chamber. I think this speaker is much more suited to a front-loaded box.

Cheers
Graeme
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: David on June 09, 2004, 04:38:10 pm
For the cost it seems like it could be favorable for a small sealed powered sub.  I was under the impression by Parts Express that it was a cousin to the LAB 12 and would be later implemented into a similar front-loaded compression chamber folded-horn.  Does Mr. Danley have a hand in this driver?

So many prefixes.
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: John Sheerin on June 10, 2004, 02:29:45 pm
Hello,
I hope this is not considered advertising, but anyway...

I designed a horn around a pair of very cheap MCM woofers about two years ago.  MCM discontinued the woofer right after a buddy finished building the horn, and Jerry McNutt offered to take a look at issuing something similar, sort of as a Lab10, but obviously it can't be called a Lab10 because the LAB was not involved.  I redid my original horn for a slightly different (better) set of woofer specs, and that's where the HL10 came from.  I finally got the horn built a few months ago and am about done testing it.  We're (Eminence) planning on putting the plans on our website.  This horn is fairly big (4'x4'x18.5") and is designed to go in large home theaters.  I also came up with a smaller design (30"x30"x13.5") that uses one HL10 and can be used ala the LAB sub.  A stack of 4 outside looks good, while a stack of 16 would be smokin'.  I am working on getting this one built and tested.

As far as modeling up horns for it on your own, I would look at very small rear chambers, not large ones, and medium to small throats / front chambers.  I have also used 4 of them in a vented box for bass guitar.  It's 24"x24"x15" and uses two square ports 4" on a side and 28" long that run along the top and bottom back corners of box, venting out the sides.  This gives it an EBS style tuning at 30hz.

John
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: David on June 12, 2004, 10:37:15 pm
Very very cool.  Please let me know how this all works out.  I would love to build up some decent folded horn subs using only one driver per horn (I'm on a tight working budget for speakers right now).

Could you please email me (afxdave@yahoo.com) because I would like to know more about the Eminence 8" coaxials and woofers for some monitors along with updates on the HL10.
Title: Re: Me too.
Post by: Dave Rickard on June 13, 2004, 05:22:23 pm
John,

I also wondered, as I'm sure many others have, how the HL10 would work out in a horn and if designs would be made available.

The obvious question would be how much performance would be lost, versus size reduction, as compared to the LAB12.  The comparisons are inevitable.  

I know anyone who undertakes these things is taking on a huge project (again?), but many might benefit from that effort.  

Please keep us posted.

daver

Title: Re: Me too.
Post by: John Sheerin on June 14, 2004, 09:56:05 am
index.php/fa/199/0/

Well, if you compare simulations (see attached graph), and compare 1 Lab horn in half space and 4 of these smaller HL10 horns in half space (about 2.7 cubic feet larger for the HL10's) both driven to xmax on the low end, the HL10 horns have 1-2dB more output above 45hz and should have smoother response to a higher frequency.  Between about 27hz and 45hz, the Lab horn has more output.  The 4x HL10 horns will probably cost a bit more due to using 4 drivers instead of 2 in the Lab horn.  Each HL10 horn uses 1.5 4'x8' sheets of 3/4" ply - I forget how many a Lab horn uses offhand, but I imagine you could find out and make that comparison.  Basically, the HL10 horn does not go as low, but individual units are smaller and should go higher in frequency and output with smoother response for a comparable cabinet volume.

As I see it, if I wanted to go low, the Lab horn would be my choice (although probably with a rear chamber modification to get the correct size ala Brad Litz's design).  If my plan was to only use the Lab horn above 40hz to get 6dB more output before xmax, then I would go with the 4x HL10 horns and have boxes that are easier to move around and a bit more sensitive.

John
Title: Re: Me too.
Post by: Dave Rickard on June 14, 2004, 10:52:48 am
Thanks, John.  

May I ask more questions?  I think these will come up time and again so I'll be the inquisitive ignoramus who goes first.  (I am aware that you don't get something for nothing in speaker designs, and that speculation is involved here.)

Is each HL10 is loaded in it's own horn?  i.e. 4 horns for four drivers?

Based on your data above, would two HL10's be roughly equivalent in SPL to one LAB horn, with the obvious tradeoff of low end extension, but at half the size?  

Will the lack of horn coupling would reduce the output of two even further?

Another typical question would be "What can I expect if I use just one?"  Not that I will, but that question will be asked.

Thanks in advance,
daver
Title: Re: Me too.
Post by: John Sheerin on June 14, 2004, 01:06:19 pm
>Is each HL10 is loaded in it's own horn?  i.e. 4 horns for four drivers?

Correct.

>Based on your data above, would two HL10's be roughly equivalent in SPL to one LAB horn, with the obvious tradeoff of low end extension, but at half the size?  

See attached image of this scenario:
index.php/fa/203/0/
So basically yes - the 2x HL10's should be about 1dB lower in output above 45hz compared to 1 LAB horn for the same power input.  The HL10's can take a bit more power to reach Xmax, though, so the output should be about the same above 45hz.


>"What can I expect if I use just one?"

As with two horns, you will need eq to get flat response, but at least the response should be fairly smooth, so possible to eq.  See the next message for a plot.  Note that the single cabinet would be -3dB from what's shown.  I just plotted at the same power level so you could see how the response changes.

John
Title: Re: Me too.
Post by: John Sheerin on June 14, 2004, 01:08:35 pm
Here's one HL10 cabinet vs. two cabinets.  Note that these are all in half space.  If used indoors against a wall, you could cut the number of cabinets in half for the same response.
index.php/fa/204/0/

John
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Phillip_Graham on June 14, 2004, 04:16:32 pm
John Sheerin wrote on Thu, 10 June 2004 14:29

I finally got the horn built a few months ago and am about done testing it.  We're (Eminence) planning on putting the plans on our website...I also came up with a smaller design (30"x30"x13.5") that uses one HL10 and can be used ala the LAB sub.  A stack of 4 outside looks good, while a stack of 16 would be smokin'.  I am working on getting this one built and tested.
John


John, I would definitely be interested in the plans for the 30x30 variant, this looks very promising indeed.  When will they be available?
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: John Sheerin on June 14, 2004, 04:58:45 pm
Hello,
I am getting a cabinet built.  As soon as it gets assembled and I can test it, I will get the plans posted.  I am hoping around a month, but at the moment that still depends on several factors that are beyond my control.

John
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: raj on June 19, 2004, 01:14:25 am
Hi John,
Could you let me have the link for the Hornresp software
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: David Little on June 19, 2004, 06:39:30 pm
raj wrote on Sat, 19 June 2004 01:14

Hi John,
Could you let me have the link for the Hornresp software


A quick Google search turned this up:
http://www.users.bigpond.com/dmcbean/
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Magnus "Magic" Johansson on June 23, 2004, 11:34:43 am
John Sheerin wrote on Thu, 10 June 2004 21:29

Hello,
I hope this is not considered advertising, but anyway...

I have also used 4 of them in a vented box for bass guitar.  It's 24"x24"x15" and uses two square ports 4" on a side and 28" long that run along the top and bottom back corners of box, venting out the sides.  This gives it an EBS style tuning at 30hz.

John


I hope this is not too much off-topic but I'm in the process of designing a series of bass-guitar boxes, and a 2*10 and a 4*10 are first in line.

I considered the Deltalite 2510 for the low weight, at least for the 4*10, or the Legend-series. Would You say thet the HL-10A would be a better choice, pricewise they are in the same ballpark. The HL-10A would go much lower and in a very small box.

Regards
Magic

PS. Are You sure about the ports, I figure 28" port length would tune lower than 30 Hz ?
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: John Sheerin on June 23, 2004, 01:25:50 pm
Hi,
Could you email me at info@eminence.com?  This is a bit off-topic for the forum, at least imo.

John
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Benkev on June 23, 2004, 04:31:50 pm
Hi John.  Even though you are right, it is a bit off topic, I suspect that nearly everyone that monitors this forum is interested in this topic, your opinions, your construction plans, etc.  This is at least partly because bass players are over-represented in the ranks of SR personnel.  You rarely see a drummer, keyboarder, or guitarist at FOH - it's always a current or former bass player.

So let us all know!

Thanks.
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: John Sheerin on June 24, 2004, 08:19:57 am
Okay,
Well, the HL10 is not necessarily better than the Deltalite 2510, just different.  The Deltalite is about 7dB more sensitive but doesn't have as much xmax.  For the same power input (both have the same power rating), the Deltalite will give you a lot more midrange output (where neither driver is excursion-limited).  On the low end, you could argue that in the same size box with the same tuning, you will get the same sensitivity.  However, you can retune the boxes and end up getting a lot more really low low bass out of the HL10 due to its T/S parameters and its larger xmax.

For bass guitar, I would use the HL10 if you want a smallish box that can go really low.  You definitely need power to drive it, though.  For more typical bass guitar boxes, the Deltalite could work fine.  The 12" version is actually pretty popular for bass guitar, with the lower weight of the neo motor being the main attraction.

The port tuning I gave was arrived at by using the Eminence Designer software which is a stripped down version of Harris Tech Bass Box Pro, I think.  I have built one of these boxes and it seems to work as predicted, but I have not actually measured the tuning frequency.  The box is up in the 80-100 pound range and lacks handles or wheels, and I haven't moved it very far from the spot where I loaded the drivers in it...

John
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Magnus "Magic" Johansson on June 24, 2004, 08:24:48 am
Yep, that is quite strange, isn't it ?
What makes a bass player interested or qualified ( ??? ) as a SR-guy ?

Off topic now, perhaps ?

Magic

Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Too Tall (Curtis H. List) on June 24, 2004, 11:19:09 am
Magic wrote on Thu, 24 June 2004 08:24

Yep, that is quite strange, isn't it ?
What makes a bass player interested or qualified ( ??? ) as a SR-guy ?]

Magic






Clearly you haven't heard any of the musician jokes out there.

A drummer usually isn't even considered a musician. They are still working on evolving to "Missing Link". (See "Animal" drummer for the Muppets as a typical specimen).

The Guitar player would be too concerned with his hair and any females present (For advice on hair care products mostly)

The keyboard player doesn't NEED anyone else. No other musicians or mix person. A small portable powered speaker and everything is covered.

That leaves
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Gilligan┬╣ on July 14, 2004, 09:30:00 pm
Just really getting into these threads here but what is the latest on this HL10 designed horn?

I might be getting our drummer to build a couple of subs soon and I'm trying to see if it's better to go with the LABs or these "smaller" ver.  We play mainly small/medium clubs and are currently using a set of Yorkville LS800p (though I'm not a fan) and EF500p's for tops (I do like these.)

Gilligan
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Dan Pockrus on July 15, 2004, 08:43:37 am
Magic wrote on Thu, 24 June 2004 07:24

What makes a bass player interested or qualified ( ??? ) as a SR-guy ?



In my case - and I'd wager it applies to every other bass player here - it's a setup time factor. In every band I've ever been in, it takes the drummer and guitarist(s) an eternity to setup for a show. Me, I'm up and running in about five minutes - and since I "had time", I was always the one who wound up setting up the PA.

-- Dan --
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Dave Rickard on July 15, 2004, 11:03:49 am
Magic wrote on Thu, 24 June 2004 13:24

Yep, that is quite strange, isn't it ?
What makes a bass player interested or qualified ( ??? ) as a SR-guy ?

Magic




Yep, this is off topic, but since you asked:

*Maybe* it's because bass players learn early, with their very first amp, about the problems of trying to do too much gig without the right rig?

*Maybe* this makes them more concerned about buying more amps and subs than the others, so they move in that direction?

*Maybe*  it's because drummers and guitarists are more worried about upgrading their own personal gear than the main rig?  While a bass rig is fairly straightforward?

And the non-instrumental singers, well.......

my 2 cents,
daver
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Vince Byrne on July 15, 2004, 02:59:36 pm
daver wrote on Thu, 15 July 2004 10:03

*Maybe* it's because bass players learn early, with their very first amp, about the problems of trying to do too much gig without the right rig?

*Maybe* this makes them more concerned about buying more amps and subs than the others, so they move in that direction?

*Maybe*  it's because drummers and guitarists are more worried about upgrading their own personal gear than the main rig?  While a bass rig is fairly straightforward?


and *Maybe* by the nature of the musical roll, musicians who are drawn to being bass players are also more naturally inclined to thrive in areas where success is found greatly in providing service and foundation.

I've certainly seen an awful lot of bands where the bass player is the mediator and peace maker, and owns, provides, or maintains more than their fair share of the band's gear or other resources ... and they often become sound providers when an ego-king singer/guitarist/drummer blows up the band! Nod  Laughing  Nod

Peace,
Vince <><
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Mike MacWillie on July 15, 2004, 07:59:50 pm
I'm willing to bet that *Maybe* thoos epeople above are bass players Wink

Anywho, anyone know of any downloadable designs for a HL10 horn?
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Dave Rickard on July 15, 2004, 08:01:46 pm
Yep, I agree with that, too.

daver
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Dave Rickard on July 15, 2004, 08:07:00 pm
Michael M wrote on Fri, 16 July 2004 00:59

I'm willing to bet that *Maybe* thoos epeople above are bass players Wink

Anywho, anyone know of any downloadable designs for a HL10 horn?

Who, me? A bass player?  *Maybe*

Read John Sheerin's posts above.  He mentioned in one of them that he might be able to publish some plans right around now, but that he might also get delayed.

daver
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: JR Rager on July 16, 2004, 09:01:42 am
This probably isn't appropriate for this particular forum, so Mods delete if you deem appropriate.

I have been working on a horn for the HL10's

I am gonna stuff an 8.5ft horn in a 24"Wx24"Hx36"D box. The problem is that it is gonna be tough to get under -6 at 35hz for a single enclosure, but the output above 40hz is predicted to be in the 110db 1w/1m range which is intense. By using them in blocks of 4-6 it should be able to get down to -3 to -6 at 30hz
There are some ripples in the predicted response due to the compromise of a smaller box /smaller throat /shorter horn than optimum. I am not ready to release any drawings and such yet so please don't send me a bunch of emails and pm's. Just tinkering around. The premise is It is just not efficient to lug the monsters around for every gig. I need a compact high output sub that doesn't cost $3,500 a piece.

Based on mlutil and horn response here is the predicted response graph based on the design so far:

http://www.pulseradiodetroit.com/images/dae10x2.JPG




Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Mark Seaton on July 16, 2004, 01:40:57 pm
JR-  Is the prediction with 1 box on the ground, or 2 or more?

Also, are you looking at 1 or 2 HL-10s per box?  Sensitivity is one thing, but you also need to look at where you run out of excursion.

Not a bad concept though, and could be somewhat similar to what John Sheerin was talking about.
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: JR Rager on July 16, 2004, 03:35:15 pm
Mark Seaton wrote on Fri, 16 July 2004 13:40

JR-  Is the prediction with 1 box on the ground, or 2 or more?

Also, are you looking at 1 or 2 HL-10s per box?  Sensitivity is one thing, but you also need to look at where you run out of excursion.

Not a bad concept though, and could be somewhat similar to what John Sheerin was talking about.


2 HL10's per box. 1 box 1/2 space
40hz = 8  mm @ 600Watts
40hz = 13 mm @ 1200Watts
35hz = 12 mm @ 600Watts (Xmax = 11.1mm)
35hz = 17 mm @ 1200Watts (Xmech = 36mm)
30hz = 15 mm @ 600watts (Xmax = 11.1mm)
30hz = 24 mm @ 1200watts (Xmech = 36mm)

At 40hz and 1000watts it should be within linear operation. If used in multiples, I imagine it would be linear down to 35hz, but I am not sure how to calculate that.

The only issue I see is that they would really have to use them in multiples of 4 or more to to get noticable extension below 40hz.(just like the labsub) Oh and where to put the handles...there will not be much room on any sides that won't have a brace or a part of the horn under it...lol.

Edit - At 600 watts (RMS) it predicts 136 db +/- 2db 40-200hz put 4 together and that could be "stupid loud" out of a 48"x48"x36" stack of speakers, but who knows. It is always a compromise, but finding what is the best compromize - physical size vs. response vs. efficiency.
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Timmahh on July 17, 2004, 09:48:14 pm
Hmm lets see,  Ive been playing bass for near 26 yrs now.  In my current band I m set up in about 15 to 20 minutes flat. tuning included.   I own the foh speaker stacks, the foh board, the majority of the foh fsx, all the power amps, most of the crossovers and the dbx eqs. ummmmm.... most of the keyboard rig.  actually its easier to say i Do Not own the drums, guitar rig, guitars, 2 of the 3 pair of monitors and the lil mackie mixer used for monitors,  i also own all the cpu recording equip.

Maybe its just easier to say I am an equipment junkie!@!  an afliction/addiction that society still frowns upon...lolol

m2c
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: iJam on August 12, 2004, 03:43:59 pm
Has anyone produced a prototype yet, either the 36x36x13 one driver box or the 24x24x36 two driver box?  

Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Roy Eikamp on August 15, 2004, 02:32:06 pm
Would like  some feed back on William Cowans's "horn sub jr."?
How would two HL-10's perform with this enclosure?
web sight is http://diy.cowanaudio.com  .

v/r Roy A. Eikamp

Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: William Cowan on August 15, 2004, 06:45:05 pm
G'day Roy

The HL-10's actually model very well in this bass horn. Have a look at http://cowanaudio.com/HL-10A.GIF This is the same horn at the same drive level, only the driver has been changed. Maximum output within x-max (above 40Hz) with the Eminence driver is around 135dB at 800W drive.

Remember that this horn is specifically designed to be used in a domestic environment, and will come up very short in a large room or outdoors when used on it's own. Consider using 6 to 8 in a group if good performance is required in a half space environment. For prosound, extra bracing would be required, otherwise the enclosure would soon fail in service. Without having the HL-10A at hand, it looks like the driver would be a tight fit. The top of the enclosure may need to be raised 25mm or so for clearance around the motor structure. The extra 8 liters this would add to the rear chamber has no noticeable effect on performance.

Cheers
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: JR Rager on August 16, 2004, 09:24:38 pm
Actually my design is some what similar to Cowans design, same fold, longer horn, different compression,driver access, and bracing. I will have a prototype built in a few weeks. I will hopefuly have full measurements in a month or so.

I will probably post my designs elsewhere, as this is really out of the lab sub scope. Unless the mods ok it.

JR
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: John Horvath on September 10, 2004, 09:08:50 am
Anybody seen one of these?:

https://athena.safe-order.net/decware/WO32/wo32.htm

I'd like to see/hear what some HL10's would do in that box.  Two of those built on top of each other, or just two of them stacked on top of each other would probably make a really wicked drumfill sub.
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Dave Rickard on September 10, 2004, 10:25:02 am
Klark wrote on Fri, 10 September 2004 14:08

Anybody seen one of these?:

https://athena.safe-order.net/decware/WO32/wo32.htm

I'd like to see/hear what some HL10's would do in that box.  Two of those built on top of each other, or just two of them stacked on top of each other would probably make a really wicked drumfill sub.

Some of the guys at the PARTS EXPRESS TECH TALK board have built those.  Others have also built their "housewrecker" for four 15's.  

That's a very friendly board, I'd ask there.

daver
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Mike MacWillie on September 11, 2004, 02:22:34 am
that WO32 isnt meant for high excursion drivers. It's meant to be used in an audiophile music system, not loud enough for PA use Smile
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Jeff Robinson on September 11, 2004, 09:49:42 am
I haven't crunched the numbers to model the WO32 but the first 2 problems are: a 5' throat length won't support horn loading below ~57 Hz and the mouth area is less than 43% the size of the LABsub. The claimed frequency response does extend to 28 Hz but with a measley 93 dB sensitivity so you'd give up an octave on the low end and 14 dB of headroom. Dead TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such a Thing As A Free Lunch!)

Jeff Robinson
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: [x] on September 30, 2004, 05:52:13 pm
Ask Bill.

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com

particularly, check into the Tuba 24. When loaded with the Eminence HL-10 (the smaller brother of the LAB driver), supposedly it is excellent through that range. You may want to put a subsonic filter on it at 35-40 Hz, though, to maximize headroom. For really light (musical instrument) duty, it can even work with a Beta-10, and demolishes a Peavey SP-series 18" sub in both loudness and extension, at the same time. I think I still have the AudioXPress magazine where details about the Tuba 24's design process are given. The plans aren't in there, though they're only $10 from the Bill F. website. Bill F. also designs W-style "Double Reverse" horns for musical instruments, but the Tuba 24 box can also find use as a sound reinforcement sub.

Its usefulness is limited by the fact that it is really only a single-10" even though its horn uses innovative design to fit enough horn into that space to provide the extension you need. The HL-10 is 8 ohms and has only 300 watts power handling, so it takes lots of amp to drive into those 8 ohms unless you stack two of them vertically per side for 4 ohms. At the price, though, you can afford to do that as long as you've got transportation. They should fit together well if you turn the upper one upside down so the two horn mouths integrate better.

Update: Bill Fitzmaurice says that his Tuba 24 horn, loaded with a HL-10 getting 300w, can be used to replace a dual-18" bin getting 1000w, in terms of output. So for those looking for a smaller alternative to something as big as the LAB sub, the Tuba 24 (because its external dimensions are 24"x24"x24") with the HL-10 should fit the bill nicely as a SR sub.

P.S. When you check out the BillFitzmaurize web site, and the Tuba 24, make sure you recognize that the response graphs shown are using a Eminence Beta-10, a very lightweight 10" speaker. Not the HL-10. According to Bill F, the HL-10 outperforms the Beta-10 by about 7dB at 40 hz with 200 watts in, in the Tuba 24. Also according to Bill F. it can really keep up with the major-league mains that are on the market, since it was designed to be paired with his very high efficiency DR250a. The biggest thing the Tuba 14 has going for it is its small size. 24"x24"x24". That's tiny.

I'm glad you guys are doing this. I don't think the HL-10 gets enough attention to really be as good as it can be.
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: raj on October 03, 2004, 02:11:22 am
HI
I am quite amazed after going through BHFProfessional,s post , I also visited Bill Fitzmaurice,s site ,
This Tuba 24 seems to be a  LITTLE MONSTER ,
BHFProfessional also writes
"  Bill Fitzmaurice says that his Tuba 24 horn, loaded with a HL-10 getting 300w, can be used to replace a dual-18" bin getting 1000w, in terms of output. So for those looking for a smaller alternative to something as big as the LAB sub, the Tuba 24 (because its external dimensions are 24"x24"x24") with the HL-10 should fit the bill nicely as a SR sub."

Also regarding DR12  Bill Fitzmaurice says ;-
"The DR12 loaded with a premium driver, such as an EV DL12X, will produce an average SPL of 109dB/1watt/1 meter from 100 to 5kHz; no other loudspeaker of its size and weight, not to mention cost, comes even close. Want proof? Look at this response chart:
The DR12 gives mighty strong competition to the $5,800 EAW ™
KF-850, despite being only 2/3 its size."

I am wondering CAN THIS ACTUALLY BE TRUE??

Just  for  information I would like to know  , can a number of  Tuba 24,s equal one lab sub , say if we do not go below 35 to 40 hz.

Regards

Rajeev


Title: Issues at full excursion with Mini Horn Sub
Post by: [x] on October 03, 2004, 09:46:02 am
I wonder if, when loaded into the Mini Horn sub, you would find that the cone and surround would be bumping into that first board below the woofer hole, damaging it. With an Xmech of 36mm (one way, I assume) I would expect that the cone and surround would go right through that hole (25mm) and then cram itself right down onto that board, over time destroying the woofer. I'd add an extra spacer to the woofer mounting so that it doesn't destroy itself.
Title: Re: Issues at full excursion with Mini Horn Sub
Post by: Gary Perrett on October 05, 2004, 10:15:16 am
HI,
After seeing this I checked out the site and had an email discussion with Bill here is his response RE: "the use of the HL 10 Eminince driver in the Tuba 24":

The destructive Xmax of the HL10 is moot; the useful Xmax is 11mm one way, and
the box design limits throw to that excursion at full power, 300 watts input.
The cone is not going to hit anything. Additional driver spacing is not
required. This box was tested at 300 watts input of a pure 40Hz sine wave,
which represents far more stress than it would ever encounter with musical
program material.

Gary

Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: [x] on October 05, 2004, 11:32:04 am
I was actually referring to Cowanaudio's Mini Horn Sub, not the tuba 24. As you can see, it looks like the cone and foam edge will bottom out on the piece that is below the driver hole, at the throat of the horn. Bill Fitzmaurice's design, on the other hand, has plenty of room for the HL-10 to do its thing.

I'm in the process of designing my own HL-10 horn (The BHFProfessional G-Horn 10) using the excellent Hornresp program. It will use a single HL-10, and I am trying to get it to extend to 45 Hz anechoic. Right now, it looks like the finished design will be 16" wide, 32" deep, and 32" high. It should give good performance with two per side instead of requiring 4. I wouldn't want to move and setup eight boxes if I could do the same job with 4. Also, the BillF design isn't satisfactory to me because while it is short, it is as wide as it is tall, and so it will claim a lot of real estate whereas my own design aims to get that performance with a smaller frontal width. I still have some bugs to work out, because my design currently has a larger compression chamber and rear chamber than I'd like, and I think that may be what's causing me to have a low sensitivity, around 108dB 1w/1m. I still have a lot of playing around to do.
Title: More HL10 horn talk...
Post by: [x] on October 05, 2004, 12:27:42 pm
I remember that with the LAB subwoofer, there have been issues with the screws holding the access plate. After some hard shows, they would begin to come unscrewed, and develop leaks. Then people's drivers would begin to overexcursion and you'd get things like torn surrounds and cones and glue joints. In short, the woofers would self-destruct. I'm looking into a way that, for my own design, the rear chamber can be sealed. That way, the driver will always have some support behind it. Also, I think I'll try and make a way to have the magnet facing out into the horn (cone facing into the rear chamber), to prevent the "hot oven" effect where temperatures build up inside the small rear chamber and the voice coil burns up.
Title: Re: More HL10 horn talk...
Post by: Mark Seaton on October 06, 2004, 08:12:29 am
BHFProfessional wrote on Tue, 05 October 2004 11:27

I remember that with the LAB subwoofer, there have been issues with the screws holding the access plate. After some hard shows, they would begin to come unscrewed, and develop leaks.


Your mention is the first I've heard of.  So long as you are building with quality materials like Baltic Birch or using T-Nuts and machine screws, there should be no problems like you describe.

Note that while everyone always seems to ask and worry about thermal handling of subs, once the sub doesn't compress as badly as many common ported designs, most (not all, but most) failures are due to over excursion or running out of amplification.  Without some intelligent limiting or similar it is very easy to ask a sub to respond to huge peaks.  It's an interesting case where once you have clean output, it is very easy to use lots of it.  Very few actually take any representative measurements of what they are listening to or pushing into their subwoofers, where a very small push of a fader can send 2-4 times the power.  Getting some reference as to what you are used to or what you want to hear is very important in understanding what you really need a subwoofer to do for you.
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: [x] on October 06, 2004, 10:34:03 pm
Give me a moment and I'll go search for the post. I think it's a page back, where the one guy ripped 4 LAB drivers, and then people asked about his access panel screws, and talked about having to periodically retighten screws after long shows, sometimes as much as a full turn, and they explored the possibility that a leaky side access panel can cause the driver to over-excursion, especially with the power people are putting into these things.



---Well, I tried to find the post, but it's not there. I guess I may have just jumped to that conclusion from reading a bunch of posts and then they all run together in my mind. Oh well. I've jumped to stranger conclusions before.
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: ChainedDragon on October 08, 2004, 03:13:10 pm
BHFProfessional wrote on Wed, 06 October 2004 22:34

Give me a moment and I'll go search for the post. I think it's a page back, where the one guy ripped 4 LAB drivers, and then people asked about his access panel screws, and talked about having to periodically retighten screws after long shows, sometimes as much as a full turn, and they explored the possibility that a leaky side access panel can cause the driver to over-excursion, especially with the power people are putting into these things.



---Well, I tried to find the post, but it's not there. I guess I may have just jumped to that conclusion from reading a bunch of posts and then they all run together in my mind. Oh well. I've jumped to stranger conclusions before.



http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/2037/3213/?SQ=5a fdfc8c17087c929e65c065f64b0c96

i think he took the pics out
Title: Re: More HL10 horn talk...
Post by: Too Tall (Curtis H. List) on October 09, 2004, 10:25:29 am
Mark Seaton wrote on Wed, 06 October 2004 08:12

BHFProfessional wrote on Tue, 05 October 2004 11:27

I remember that with the LAB subwoofer, there have been issues with the screws holding the access plate. After some hard shows, they would begin to come unscrewed, and develop leaks.


Your mention is the first I've heard of.  So long as you are building with quality materials like Baltic Birch or using T-Nuts and machine screws, there should be no problems like you describe.

Snip-

.


Hi Mark,
   Al is constantly having screws back out. Mostly on all the handles (they are on T-nuts) and I believe also on the access plate. It's something he has to check every time. As to the construction, you saw and heard his boxes pushed past 135dB at about 2 1/2 meters with not a single rattle so I believe they are constructed correctly.

Too Tall

Title: Re: More HL10 horn talk...
Post by: Mike MacWillie on October 09, 2004, 02:51:31 pm
[quote title=Too Tall wrote on Sat, 09 October 2004 07:25
Hi Mark,
   Al is constantly having screws back out. Mostly on all the handles (they are on T-nuts) and I believe also on the access plate. snip
[/quote]

Have you guys given loctite a go on the bolts? I've used it on acess panel bolts on my own horns (not labs though..) and they're staying tight as they were when I put them in Smile

Title: Re: More HL10 horn talk...
Post by: Too Tall (Curtis H. List) on October 09, 2004, 04:08:53 pm
[quote title=Michael M wrote on Sat, 09 October 2004 14:51]
Too Tall wrote on Sat, 09 October 2004 07:25
Hi Mark,
   Al is constantly having screws back out. Mostly on all the handles (they are on T-nuts) and I believe also on the access plate. snip
[/quote



Have you guys given loctite a go on the bolts? I've used it on acess panel bolts on my own horns (not labs though..) and they're staying tight as they were when I put them in Smile




I don't believe he is using anything like that.
Too Tall
Title: Re: still wondering
Post by: Roy Eikamp on October 15, 2004, 08:15:16 pm
I completed Cowan audio's horn sub jr.;loaded with eminence delta 10's that I had laying around. This is my first listen to  a horn sub. what a difference a horn makes.It was crossed over at 80hz and powered with a microtech 1000 parallel mono to both drivers.really kiks butt considering the low power components. Forgot to mention using dbx 234xl xover for subs and a driverack 260 stereo tri amped tops;delayed to 6 milliseconds.This sub project is a warm up and intro to horn subs;lab sub also in progress. My hats off to Mr. Cowan of Cowan audio and a special thanks to all on this forum who have contributed to my ongoing priceless education.

v/r
Roy A. Eikamp