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Title: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 09, 2011, 02:11:20 pm
Hello Folks:
I am hoping to get some recommendations for a sound reinforcement system.  Budget, 7-8K USD.

We are a 4-piece classic R&R band (Drums, two guitars and bass).   The three front guitarists can share one monitor mix with minimal instrumentation but strong vocal mix.  Drummer needs second mix to include strong instrumentation and vocal mix.

Largest indoor venue would probably be in the 6000 sq foot range.  If we do anything larger, we would hire out a sound person with a system, or the venue would provide sound (we would hope).

Would like to configure with an unpowered board and passive mains and monitors.  Each member is responsible for their own instrument and vocal mics, although we will be using Shure SM58s for all vocals, SM57s for the two guitarists and the bass musician has a XLR direct output that would go to the board.  The drummer is somewhat of a hard hitter, so we will be using a couple of overhead condenser mics and a Shure Beta 52A for the kick.

We want to rack mount all components for convenience.  For now, we will be running the sound from the stage.  We have looked at an Allen & Heath MixWizard 3 16:2 board and an SKB Roto Rig for components and board.

I would appreciate feedback and recommendations.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Kirby Yarbrough on May 09, 2011, 03:31:31 pm
First of all, you need to use your real name before the moderator locks this thread.

I think your budget of $7 - 8K is way too small for something that will handle that type of music in up to a 6K square foot venue.  You'll need three decent wedges, and unless the drummer doesn't need kick or bass in his mix, a drum fill (generally a small sub with a wedge on top or a single cabinet with a good 15" or 18" and plenty of power).  You'll need at least four, maybe six or eight 18s for the low end (in some combination of single or double 18" cabinets), and two or more top cabinets that can be splayed correctly together per side.  You'll need good solid amps to properly power the subs and tops, as well as the two monitor mixes.  Add in a couple of GEQs or PEQs for FOH and the monitor mixes, a couple of effects units (unless all you need is what's in the MixWiz), possibly some compression, then add mics, stands and cables, and power distribution.

If your budget is pretty well fixed, re-think the venue size threshold of 6K square feet.  Spec a system that will handle 80 - 90% of your shows, and hire out the rest.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 09, 2011, 04:09:37 pm
Okay, re-thinking things, let's say 4000 sq would be the max inside venue, yes, we go with an outside vendor if venue is larger.  So . . . .

First of all, you need to use your real name before the moderator locks this thread.

I think your budget of $7 - 8K is way too small for something that will handle that type of music in up to a 6K square foot venue.  You'll need three decent wedges, and unless the drummer doesn't need kick or bass in his mix, a drum fill (generally a small sub with a wedge on top or a single cabinet with a good 15" or 18" and plenty of power).  You'll need at least four, maybe six or eight 18s for the low end (in some combination of single or double 18" cabinets), and two or more top cabinets that can be splayed correctly together per side.  You'll need good solid amps to properly power the subs and tops, as well as the two monitor mixes.  Add in a couple of GEQs or PEQs for FOH and the monitor mixes, a couple of effects units (unless all you need is what's in the MixWiz), possibly some compression, then add mics, stands and cables, and power distribution.

If your budget is pretty well fixed, re-think the venue size threshold of 6K square feet.  Spec a system that will handle 80 - 90% of your shows, and hire out the rest.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on May 09, 2011, 04:34:16 pm
Okay, re-thinking things, let's say 4000 sq would be the max inside venue, yes, we go with an outside vendor if venue is larger.  So . . . .

Buy quality used gear.  For the kit, go with kick, snare and a couple of judiciously chosen and placed tom mics.  If he's a hard hitter your front line vocal mics will serve as OH substitutes.  Just hope he doesn't hit so hard that you have to worry about keeping the cymbals OUT of them........
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: duane massey on May 09, 2011, 06:24:20 pm
Yamaha SM12v wedges, S115V or S215V for drummer IF he wants drums thru them (try to talk him out of it). Cheapest FOH passive 2way that I've been happy with have been the Yamaha S12V, but that's not a very potent box for loud rock bands. Better to get fewer boxes that are up to the task (JBL SRX, etc), but your budget may not cover that level. Powered speakers might be a better approach.

What are are you in?
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on May 09, 2011, 06:35:47 pm

What are are you in?

Are are ye a pirate?????
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Scott Bolt on May 09, 2011, 08:48:38 pm
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 09, 2011, 10:55:57 pm
I am not against powered speakers.  I'm just trying to see if we can pull this off within the stated budget or close to it.

    Well, first, I am sorry to completely disreguard your requirements, but my best recommendation would be:
[list=1]
  • Presonus SL 16.4.2 ($1700)
  • Yamaha DSR112 (2x$800)
  • JBL PRX618 XLF (2x$1300)
  • A used pair of powered monitors
Reasoning:

This system will be small, light, and powerful.  The SL mixer contains all the efx, gates, compressors, and parametric eq's you will need and it sounds really great.

I have a mix wiz myself along with a presonus ACP88, TCElectronics M-OneXL, power conditioner, CD rack mount, ART HQ 31 channel main eq and Delta 1010 for recording.  This is a really great sounding system, but it is  big and heavy.  ALL of this functionality resides within the SL and more.

Is there any particular reason you want to go with passive speakers?
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 09, 2011, 10:58:31 pm
Scott, why the Yamaha's for the mains and JBLs for the subs? 

    Well, first, I am sorry to completely disreguard your requirements, but my best recommendation would be:
[list=1]
  • Presonus SL 16.4.2 ($1700)
  • Yamaha DSR112 (2x$800)
  • JBL PRX618 XLF (2x$1300)
  • A used pair of powered monitors
Reasoning:

This system will be small, light, and powerful.  The SL mixer contains all the efx, gates, compressors, and parametric eq's you will need and it sounds really great.

I have a mix wiz myself along with a presonus ACP88, TCElectronics M-OneXL, power conditioner, CD rack mount, ART HQ 31 channel main eq and Delta 1010 for recording.  This is a really great sounding system, but it is  big and heavy.  ALL of this functionality resides within the SL and more.

Is there any particular reason you want to go with passive speakers?
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Albert Thomas on May 09, 2011, 11:22:06 pm
Hello Folks:
I am hoping to get some recommendations for a sound reinforcement system.  Budget, 7-8K USD.


If you're not in a big hurry and have some patience, I would think you could put together an adequate system within your budget as long as you don't have to have new gear.

I'm thinking for R&R you may want to consider 2x15 mains. I picked up a pair of like new EV eliminator doubles with matching I-Subs for $700 on Craigslist. Just recently there were a pair of like new JRX125's for $500. Granted, this isn't "pro level" stuff, but maybe good enough for what you need. I've used the EV's bi-amped for DJ's and R&R bands in high school gyms and rooms up to ~5000sqft. and they were fine.  There's a  clean Soundcraft GB4 32 channel console on there right now for $1400 .  At these prices you can re-sell without taking a huge hit if the gear doesn't quite work out.
The down side is you don't have a warranty.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Gordon Brinton on May 10, 2011, 05:42:43 am
Hello Folks:
I am hoping to get some recommendations for a sound reinforcement system.  Budget, 7-8K USD.

We are a 4-piece classic R&R band (Drums, two guitars and bass).   The three front guitarists can share one monitor mix with minimal instrumentation but strong vocal mix.  Drummer needs second mix to include strong instrumentation and vocal mix.

Largest indoor venue would probably be in the 6000 sq foot range.  If we do anything larger, we would hire out a sound person with a system, or the venue would provide sound (we would hope).

Would like to configure with an unpowered board and passive mains and monitors.  Each member is responsible for their own instrument and vocal mics, although we will be using Shure SM58s for all vocals, SM57s for the two guitarists and the bass musician has a XLR direct output that would go to the board.  The drummer is somewhat of a hard hitter, so we will be using a couple of overhead condenser mics and a Shure Beta 52A for the kick.

We want to rack mount all components for convenience.  For now, we will be running the sound from the stage.  We have looked at an Allen & Heath MixWizard 3 16:2 board and an SKB Roto Rig for components and board.

I would appreciate feedback and recommendations.

4000 square feet is a small room. If that room includes tables and a dance floor, your crowds are likely to be less than 300.

Consider this...
- If the drummer is a hard hitter you do not need to mic the drums in a room that small. (Why make the loudest instrument even louder?)
- You don't need to mic or DI the bass in a room that small. (Bass develops heavily out in the middle of the room and creates standing waves.)
- If the drummer cannot hear the other instruments, either he is too loud or everyone is too loud.
- If everyone is too loud, you may not need to mic the guitars either.

My advice: Get the band under control before you throw $7000 at it to make everything twice as loud.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 10, 2011, 06:59:28 am
4000 square feet is a small room. If that room includes tables and a dance floor, your crowds are likely to be less than 300.

Consider this...
- If the drummer is a hard hitter you do not need to mic the drums in a room that small. (Why make the loudest instrument even louder?)
- You don't need to mic or DI the bass in a room that small. (Bass develops heavily out in the middle of the room and creates standing waves.)
- If the drummer cannot hear the other instruments, either he is too loud or everyone is too loud.
- If everyone is too loud, you may not need to mic the guitars either.

Good points.  Let me throw this out:  I read that a good rule of thumb is to consider 8 watts of power per person.  So if you are in a venue holding 200 people, you should consider a total of 1600 watts worth of speaker-amplification.  Does this sound reasonable?  I wonder if this calculation considers mains and subs together?
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Russel Murton on May 10, 2011, 07:23:14 am
Good points.  Let me throw this out:  I read that a good rule of thumb is to consider 8 watts of power per person.  So if you are in a venue holding 200 people, you should consider a total of 1600 watts worth of speaker-amplification.  Does this sound reasonable?  I wonder if this calculation considers mains and subs together?

Watts do not equal a loudness measurement. Decide how loud you want to get in the size rooms you play in and for how many people. We have a good idea how many people can be covered with options within your budget.

I.e. I'd reccommend a bigger system for 150 people in a 4000sqft room for a metal band compared to an indy rock band.

For that number of people (100-200) I'd be looking at a pair of DSR112's and a pair of the matching subs. Add a Presonus StudioLive 16:4:2, 3 MSR400's (Or DSR112's if you can splash out and want to future proof) and a DSR115 for drums.

That system should easily cover most small venues for a band running their own sound. Anything larger than that system I would be wanting a dedicated sound operator to control the system out infront.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 10, 2011, 08:05:28 am
Add a Presonus StudioLive 16:4:2

This mixer keeps coming up.  It's expensive but it appears to cover all bases.  It will handle all EQs and multiple monitor mixes - at least 4, maybe more?
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Brad Weber on May 10, 2011, 09:40:12 am
Good points.  Let me throw this out:  I read that a good rule of thumb is to consider 8 watts of power per person.  So if you are in a venue holding 200 people, you should consider a total of 1600 watts worth of speaker-amplification.  Does this sound reasonable?  I wonder if this calculation considers mains and subs together?
This has been discussed many times and the bottom line is that a watts per person number has virtually no relevance to the actual system performance and is a poor basis for any decisions.  Even if you eliminated variables such as potential differences in venues, musical styles, the effects of stage sound and so on, technical factors such as speaker sensitivity would still make such assumptions invalid.
 
It has been hinted around but some critical considerations are whether you are looking only at new gear or would also consider used gear and whether you need to purchase everything now or can do it over a period of time over which you can look for good deals.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Bennett Prescott on May 10, 2011, 01:49:46 pm
Steve,

This comes up fairly frequently, with people working with budget numbers that clearly only take into account a mixer and loudspeakers. I've been managing this Excel spreadsheet for a few years now that gives an excellent starting point. Maybe you want different speakers, maybe you want a different mixer, mics, whatever... it's probably going to cost about this much, and you can see just how much of your money goes into cases and wire.

http://bennettprescott.com/downloads/QD_Bar_Rig.xls
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 10, 2011, 04:53:47 pm
Steve,

This comes up fairly frequently, with people working with budget numbers that clearly only take into account a mixer and loudspeakers. I've been managing this Excel spreadsheet for a few years now that gives an excellent starting point. Maybe you want different speakers, maybe you want a different mixer, mics, whatever... it's probably going to cost about this much, and you can see just how much of your money goes into cases and wire.

http://bennettprescott.com/downloads/QD_Bar_Rig.xls

Thanks Bennett.  That is a very informative spreadsheet.  Lots of extra items you just don't consider until you go "what the heck".
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: duane massey on May 10, 2011, 11:52:37 pm
Are are ye a pirate?????
What an idiot I am! Late night typing errors bite me again. I meant "What are are you in?"

Duh!!!
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 11, 2011, 12:28:30 am
What an idiot I am! Late night typing errors bite me again. I meant "What are are you in?"

Duh!!!

We are in nothing.  We have rented and borrowed so far.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: duane massey on May 11, 2011, 10:46:13 am
We are in nothing.  We have rented and borrowed so far.
What is wrong with me? It was supposed to ask "What AREA are you in?"

I need to start drinking so I'll have an excuse besides old age for these embarrassing moments.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Jay Barracato on May 11, 2011, 10:57:56 am
Steve,

This comes up fairly frequently, with people working with budget numbers that clearly only take into account a mixer and loudspeakers. I've been managing this Excel spreadsheet for a few years now that gives an excellent starting point. Maybe you want different speakers, maybe you want a different mixer, mics, whatever... it's probably going to cost about this much, and you can see just how much of your money goes into cases and wire.

http://bennettprescott.com/downloads/QD_Bar_Rig.xls

Nothing quite like the realization that your small PA operation has several thousands of dollars of wire.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 11, 2011, 11:41:44 am
What is wrong with me? It was supposed to ask "What AREA are you in?"

I need to start drinking so I'll have an excuse besides old age for these embarrassing moments.

I can relate to that!!  I am in North Texas, specifically Grapevine which is a town just north of the DFW area.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Rob Gow on May 11, 2011, 03:03:56 pm
Steve,

This comes up fairly frequently, with people working with budget numbers that clearly only take into account a mixer and loudspeakers. I've been managing this Excel spreadsheet for a few years now that gives an excellent starting point. Maybe you want different speakers, maybe you want a different mixer, mics, whatever... it's probably going to cost about this much, and you can see just how much of your money goes into cases and wire.

http://bennettprescott.com/downloads/QD_Bar_Rig.xls

My setup was pretty much the same as the old list you had (with the Yorkville gear) and yup, it was pretty much bang on.


:thu:
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Scott Bolt on May 11, 2011, 07:15:10 pm
Scott, why the Yamaha's for the mains and JBLs for the subs? 
Mostly personal preference.  The JBL PRX612's are a very good speaker as well; however, having A/B'd them to the DSR's I found that the DSR's were the better sounding speaker.

You should go listen to them yourself and make your own judgement ;)

The SL 16.4.2 is mentioned because it is a really nice board with lots of integrated features which you are going to want to make a good sounding mix anyway (gates for the drums, compression for vocals, bass, etc, parametric eq for everything, reverb/delay). 

If you were to buy decent MI grade analog mixer along with the other individual components that are included with the SL, you would end up with the same bill (or more), but you would have lots more to wire up and carry.

I have a mixwiz2 and while it is a great mixer that sounds fantastic, I wish that the SL was available when I put my system together.

Your point is still well taken.  You can get a decent 16ch mixer with efx and a cheep quad gate and be well under 1K.  I did this for some time myself.

I do not agree with another poster that you don't need the drums mic'ed.  A rock band doesn't sound like a rock band without the drums being mic'ed (especially the kick).  You can cut a few corners with the microphones to limit the cost, but you want the kick and toms at a minimum.  The toms can be covered 2 toms to a mic if you are clever, but I like to have one on each tom myself ;)

Using even a cheep gate (per channel) on the kick and toms is sufficient to tighten up the mix into a decent sounding band IMHO.

And then there is the sub.  Again, real bands have subs.

It isn't about volume.  It is about sound quality.  Drums put out tons of highs, and hardly any lows without sound re-enforcement. 

Bennett's list is pretty comprehensive; however, I think you can eliminate much of the items in the list based on :


My strongest suggestions are not to skimp on your speakers or your vocal microphones.  Of course, it would be best if you didn't have to skimp on anything; however, we all know that it isn't possible unless you are quite wealthy, or own a sound company ;)
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Brad Weber on May 12, 2011, 08:31:22 am
And then there is the sub.  Again, real bands have subs.
Yes, having a sub makes you a real band.  ;)
 
Bennett's list is pretty comprehensive; however, I think you can eliminate much of the items in the list based on:
I think the difference here may be between addressing what may be typical or recommended versus what you may be able to get away with and the latter may be both subjective and vary for each situation.  Also keep in mind that I believe Bennett's list is based more for a 'sound provider' putting together a minimal system to support bar bands.  If the band is running their own sound, has a dead cable and has to work around it that may be acceptable, if your job is specifically to provide and run the sound then it is probably much less acceptable.

You don't need a speaker management system with today's powered speaker systems as this is built in.
Some of the functions of a speaker management system may be integrated into some powered speakers, but not all of the functions and a dedicated speaker management system can be even more valuable if you start mixing products that weren't necessarily designed to go together.
 
With decent powered speakers, you can run your main eq flat and sound really good so you don't really need an equalizer.
Unless you want a particular sound or the venue affects the system response or any of a number of other reasons that having an EQ may be desirable even if the speaker response is flat.
 
Buy your XLR cables in bulk.  I have gotten some really good ones off e-bay at around 10 per ~$75 - 100.00.
What do you mean by "really good ones"?  You got rid of the snake and are depending on these cables, so probably not a good place to cut corners.
 
You don't need speaker stands if you have subs to mount your tops over.  You can get the speaker pole between the two pretty cheep.
That depends on the specific products and the venue, an example of where spending a little more to have some flexibility or options may be a good investment for some people.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Jay Barracato on May 12, 2011, 08:42:49 am
Yes, having a sub makes you a real band.  ;)
 I think the difference here may be between addressing what may be typical or recommended versus what you may be able to get away with and the latter may be both subjective and vary for each situation.  Also keep in mind that I believe Bennett's list is based more for a 'sound provider' putting together a minimal system to support bar bands.  If the band is running their own sound, has a dead cable and has to work around it that may be acceptable, if your job is specifically to provide and run the sound then it is probably much less acceptable.
Some of the functions of a speaker management system may be integrated into some powered speakers, but not all of the functions and a dedicated speaker management system can be even more valuable if you start mixing products that weren't necessarily designed to go together.
 Unless you want a particular sound or the venue affects the system response or any of a number of other reasons that having an EQ may be desirable even if the speaker response is flat.
 What do you mean by "really good ones"?  You got rid of the snake and are depending on these cables, so probably not a good place to cut corners.
 That depends on the specific products and the venue, an example of where spending a little more to have some flexibility or options may be a good investment for some people.


Or to summarize what Brad said:

When you buy your extension cords at Walmart, make sure they are bright orange...
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 12, 2011, 10:46:54 am
I really appreciate all the feedback.  Here is where I am at so far in terms of what I am considering:


There have been recommendations in favor of  additional EQ and conditioning and comments that it may not be necessary, so I am not sure how to approach that other than building on as I can afford additonal products.  I do want to keep things as simple as possible but good sound with ample reserve is the ultimate goal.

Comments on my direction so far?
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Scott Wagner on May 12, 2011, 11:06:44 am
I really appreciate all the feedback.  Here is where I am at so far in terms of what I am considering:

  • Presonus SL 16.4.2
  • JBL PRX615M (X2)
  • JBL PRX618S-XLF (X2)
  • JBL PRX612M (X4)

There have been recommendations in favor of  additional EQ and conditioning and comments that it may not be necessary, so I am not sure how to approach that other than building on as I can afford additonal products.  I do want to keep things as simple as possible but good sound with ample reserve is the ultimate goal.

Comments on my direction so far?
Most of the "additional EQ" is in the board with the Presonus (along with compressors, gates, limiters, reverb, delay, etc).

I think the PRX will serve you well - they are great speakers for this level of gear.  One note, I would use the PRX612m's for FOH, since the 615's beam in the 1.4k - 1.8k range.  The 615 makes a great drum monitor, though.

And, finally, when you buy a snake, do yourself a favor and make sure to get XLR returns.  You'll thank me later.

Scott Wagner
Big Nickel Audio
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Jay Barracato on May 12, 2011, 11:14:40 am
I really appreciate all the feedback.  Here is where I am at so far in terms of what I am considering:

  • Presonus SL 16.4.2
  • JBL PRX615M (X2)
  • JBL PRX618S-XLF (X2)
  • JBL PRX612M (X4)

There have been recommendations in favor of  additional EQ and conditioning and comments that it may not be necessary, so I am not sure how to approach that other than building on as I can afford additonal products.  I do want to keep things as simple as possible but good sound with ample reserve is the ultimate goal.

Comments on my direction so far?

I would not be unhappy with that setup. Many of the comments are focused on the idea that once you have the equipment, you want to make sure you can protect it in storage and transport, as well as have sufficient funds for cables etc. That is a hidden cost that is often forgotten. One of the big points of Bennett's spreadsheet is how much the little things can add up to.

I might also suggest going with 6 PRX612m especially if the bulk of your shows are smaller. It gives you some redundancy and flexibility in setup.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Rob Truesdell on May 12, 2011, 12:46:51 pm
The only reason I might get a pair of 615's over some 612's is if you might set up in a small room with out subs. I guess it also depends on what your drummer/bass player might need for monitors.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on May 12, 2011, 12:55:01 pm
Most of the "additional EQ" is in the board with the Presonus (along with compressors, gates, limiters, reverb, delay, etc).

Scott Wagner
Big Nickel Audio

I own and use a StudioLive board for the convenience of taking a minimal amount of gear for smaller jobs.  The gates, comps and FX are OK, but I would never go with the onboard EQ's for mains and monitors.  Channel EQ's are usable to some degree, but for the mains and monitors I go with four channels of Sabine GraphiQ to get some real control. This gives me surgical precision for the mains and three monitor mixes in a two rack-space case.  I use the blank faceplate models and access them through my laptop which is what I use for playback as well.  This additional level of control makes it work as well as anything else and I would never be without it. 
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Iain.Macdonald on May 12, 2011, 03:27:43 pm
Hi,

You have had lots of good advice. You might wish to check out Crossroads Audio/Dallas Pro Audio Sales (http://www.crossroadsaudio.com/), about 14 miles away from you, near Love Field. They are also a rental and production company. You will see many of the products mentioned in this thread, on their over the counter rental list/pdf. (http://www.crossroadsaudio.com/Rentals%20Catalog.pdf) Also have look at  GearSource (http://www.gearsource.com/) for listings.

Iain.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 12, 2011, 03:58:57 pm
The only reason I might get a pair of 615's over some 612's is if you might set up in a small room with out subs. I guess it also depends on what your drummer/bass player might need for monitors.


Knowing that expansion is available down the line, to get off the ground, it looks like a should probably add some graphic EQs to the mains and monitors.  If I do this, am I correct hat the mains can be handled with a two channel 31-band dbx? (it looks like the subs would be conneted right off the mains).  On the Monitors, I want to be able to have 4 monitor mixes.  How many EQs / Channels will I need for that?
[/list]
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Rob Gow on May 12, 2011, 04:20:21 pm
  • Presonus SL 16.4.2
  • JBL PRX615M (X2)
  • JBL PRX618S-XLF - (X2)These are 1000W subs - would the 600w variaty do the job?
  • JBL PRX612M (X4)

Knowing that expansion is available down the line, to get off the ground, it looks like a should probably add some graphic EQs to the mains and monitors.  If I do this, am I correct hat the mains can be handled with a two channel 31-band dbx? (it looks like the subs would be conneted right off the mains).  On the Monitors, I want to be able to have 4 monitor mixes.  How many EQs / Channels will I need for that?
[/list]

You need 4 EQ's and 4 amp channels:

QSC CX404 = four 250W 8ohm channels...
(http://www.prodjsupply.com/image/cache/data/qsc/cx254-700x700.jpg)
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Rob Spence on May 12, 2011, 04:53:13 pm
While it may seem you can cut these out to save money, I vote no. Get a good case for the mixer so it survives gig to gig. I had a friend years ago who hauled his Mackie SR24-4 wrapped in a blanket. He was always needing replacement knobs and packing his car was a pain cause the mixer always had to go on top.
Also, if you are buying new speakers, get good covers for them. It will keep them good looking and when you need to upgrade (we always have to upgrade), the speakers will be worth more.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 12, 2011, 05:32:18 pm
    You need 4 EQ's and 4 amp channels:

    QSC CX404 = four 250W 8ohm channels...
(http://www.prodjsupply.com/image/cache/data/qsc/cx254-700x700.jpg)

Speakers are active so I would not need more amplification, just the EQs.  So for the two mains, 2 bands of EQ and one band of EQ for each monitor, correct?  Also, I am looking at a SKB Roto Gig Rig Mixer Rack.[/list]
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Rob Gow on May 12, 2011, 05:37:54 pm
    You need 4 EQ's and 4 amp channels:

    QSC CX404 = four 250W 8ohm channels...
(http://www.prodjsupply.com/image/cache/data/qsc/cx254-700x700.jpg)


Ahhh ok I misunderstood, yeah, 6 EQ's total.


2 for FOH
1 for each of the monitor channels.



Speakers are active so I would not need more amplification, just the EQs.  So for the two mains, 2 bands of EQ and one band of EQ for each monitor, correct?  Also, I am looking at a SKB Roto Gig Rig Mixer Rack.[/list]
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Rob Truesdell on May 12, 2011, 11:57:21 pm
The only reason I might get a pair of 615's over some 612's is if you might set up in a small room with out subs. I guess it also depends on what your drummer/bass player might need for monitors.

  • Presonus SL 16.4.2
  • JBL PRX615M (X2)
  • JBL PRX618S-XLF - (X2)These are 1000W subs - would the 600w variaty do the job?
  • JBL PRX612M (X4)

Knowing that expansion is available down the line, to get off the ground, it looks like a should probably add some graphic EQs to the mains and monitors.  If I do this, am I correct hat the mains can be handled with a two channel 31-band dbx? (it looks like the subs would be conneted right off the mains).  On the Monitors, I want to be able to have 4 monitor mixes.  How many EQs / Channels will I need for that?
[/list]


I would spend the few extra dollars for the XLF subs. I have a pair of VRX918SP subs that use the same driver and they sound great!
I havent used a Studio Live but before you start spending on EQ's check it out first because I think the mixer has EQ's on the mains and maybe the AUX channels too.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 13, 2011, 08:08:34 am
I would spend the few extra dollars for the XLF subs. I have a pair of VRX918SP subs that use the same driver and they sound great!  I havent used a Studio Live but before you start spending on EQ's check it out first because I think the mixer has EQ's on the mains and maybe the AUX channels too.

Hi Rob.  I was pretty sure I knew the answer to my "Subs" question before I even asked.  I also believe that I will postpone the EQ purchase until I have tried the unit out in a live performance environment.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 13, 2011, 08:59:34 am
The SL 16.4.2 is mentioned because it is a really nice board with lots of integrated features which you are going to want to make a good sounding mix anyway (gates for the drums, compression for vocals, bass, etc, parametric eq for everything, reverb/delay). 

  • You don't need a speaker management system with today's powered speaker systems as this is built in.
  • With decent powered speakers, you can run your main eq flat and sound really good so you don't really need an equalizer.

First and foremost, I would like to thank everyone for so much great feedback.  This is the first forum I have been involved with where its membership doesn’t make a newbie like myself feel like an idiot!

Referencing Scott’s feedback above, I would like to keep this thing as simple as possible but I do not want to sacrifice quality which takes me to my next question:

Although the mixer I am looking at (SL 16.4.2) contains a number of great features, there appears to be varying opinions with regards to additional “Speaker Management” systems.  Tabling the EQ debate, the “DriveRack” for speaker optimization keeps weighing on my mind.  “dbx” touts their units as a must for “powered speakers”.   Considering the fact that the PRX’s (per side) would be connected in series, would a DriveRack truly contribute to sound optimization or is this something that should be considered only if necessary?
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Dave Scarlett on May 13, 2011, 09:03:33 am
This might do the job. Eight channels of equalization in a single rack space, Alesis  DEQ 830:
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on May 13, 2011, 09:26:23 am
This might do the job. Eight channels of equalization in a single rack space, Alesis  DEQ 830:

1.  Please learn to resize your pictures so they don't expand the pages.  Google "resize pictures on line".

2.  8 channels of GEQ in one space is still GEQ.  Get some parametrics to keep from hacking the spectrum with "too big a hammer".
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Jay Barracato on May 13, 2011, 09:32:47 am
First and foremost, I would like to thank everyone for so much great feedback.  This is the first forum I have been involved with where its membership doesn’t make a newbie like myself feel like an idiot!

Referencing Scott’s feedback above, I would like to keep this thing as simple as possible but I do not want to sacrifice quality which takes me to my next question:

Although the mixer I am looking at (SL 16.4.2) contains a number of great features, there appears to be varying opinions with regards to additional “Speaker Management” systems.  Tabling the EQ debate, the “DriveRack” for speaker optimization keeps weighing on my mind.  “dbx” touts their units as a must for “powered speakers”.   Considering the fact that the PRX’s (per side) would be connected in series, would a DriveRack truly contribute to sound optimization or is this something that should be considered only if necessary?

Outboard eq gives you an another whole level of system control, which you will be thankful for at the first bar that puts the band in front of a plate glass window with 90 db of background noise from the patrons bouncing off of it.

It comes down to the decision of whether you are more comfortable with GEQ or PEQ. I am not a fan of the driverack units, especially the lower end ones in the series. Like DIck I use a Sabine system controller (the navigator) with my powered speaker setup. Mine relies on PEQ. Their other offering gives you both GEQ and PEQ. A similar set of offerings is available from Ashly. I have only used the Alesis DEQ on monitors, but it is quick and easy to setup and use.

I feel that the Studiolive output GEQ is usable, so personally I would be looking for PEQ. However, I do not believe the 16.4.2 has dedicated GEQ for the aux outputs, so a unit like the Alesis might be handy for monitors depending on how comfortable you are with PEQ.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Brad Weber on May 13, 2011, 10:52:47 am
I havent used a Studio Live but before you start spending on EQ's check it out first because I think the mixer has EQ's on the mains and maybe the AUX channels too.
Yes, the SL has a Fat Channel on virtually all of the outputs.  However, it is essentially the same processing as on the inputs and the EQ is a four band, semi-parametric (apparently a fixed bandwidth of Q=0.55 or over two octaves) EQ with the high and low bands able to be switched to be shelving filters.  There is also a limiter but can only be turned on or off, there is no adjustment of threshold (apparently preset at 0dBFS), attack, release or knee.  There is also no delay.  It seems pretty clear that the StudioLive output processing is intended much more for 'sweetening' than to serve as a system processor or loudspeaker management systems.
 
Steve, you may be able to loop through the powered subs and use the internal low and high pass filtering for the crossover.  However, that and whatever procesing the mixer outputs supports would be the extent of the processing for the speakers and control of the relative levels of the sub and mains would be limited to adjusting the level controls on the speakers.
 
The bottom line is that the system will work and you may be able to get acceptable results without any external processing, however you will be limited in what you can do in terms of dealing with problems or optimizing the results.  While not having the best sound you could may be something you could deal with initially and then maybe address in the future, if issues such as gain before feedback for the monitors arise then having limited EQ and processing available could become a much more immediate problem.
 
I think the biggest potential issue may be with monitors.  I really like parametric EQ for monitors, but four bands, or less if you use the high or low band for shelving, of 'semi-parametric' EQ with what is apparently a fairly wide fixed bandwidth may not be the best approach for that purpose.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 13, 2011, 11:20:25 am
I think the biggest potential issue may be with monitors.  I really like parametric EQ for monitors, but four bands, or less if you use the high or low band for shelving, of 'semi-parametric' EQ with what is apparently a fairly wide fixed bandwidth may not be the best approach for that purpose.

Brad, thanks for the feedback.  I believe I will approach this by testing the waters on the FOH speakers without additional management and adding some additional form of EQ for the four monitor mixes.  There seems to be quite a pricing disparity from one parametric EQ manufacturer to another.  Close to 1K is out of our range for parametric EQ so I will probably consider a Graphic EQ for the monitors to start with.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Brian Nelson on May 13, 2011, 11:53:31 am
The Studiolive 16.4.2 will have GEQs on all Aux in the next firmware update, they have said this and updated the online manual (firmware 1.13)

When that firmware is available is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Wali Raffiqi on May 13, 2011, 07:55:54 pm
Speakers are active so I would not need more amplification, just the EQs.  So for the two mains, 2 bands of EQ and one band of EQ for each monitor, correct?  Also, I am looking at a SKB Roto Gig Rig Mixer Rack.[/list]
Steve,

I'm not sure how you feel about the look of the plastic on the Gig Rigs, but I hate it. I went with an EWI case from audiopile.net. Technically they are 1 space small (SL is supposed to be 14 and these are 12 space), but they are still deep enough to fit the board in them.

Doesn't hurt to give them a look:
http://audiopile.net/products/Cases/CU_series_roadracks/CU-P-22/CU-P-22_series_cutsheet.shtml

They also have the table combo, which I went with. They are great cases!
http://audiopile.net/products/Cases/CU_series_roadracks/CUDJ-P-22/CRUDJ-P-22_series_cutsheet.shtml
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 14, 2011, 12:43:06 pm
Steve, I'm not sure how you feel about the look of the plastic on the Gig Rigs, but I hate it. I went with an EWI case from audiopile.net. Technically they are 1 space small (SL is supposed to be 14 and these are 12 space), but they are still deep enough to fit the board in them.

Brian, thanks for the feedback.  I too like the looks of the Audiopile case.  I have been looking at the SL 16.4.2 as well as the Allen & Heath MixWizard 3 16:2.  The Presonus dimension depth from the top rear of the board to the bottom of the “hang-down” (not sure what to call this)  is approximately 6.8” while the A&H Wiz is approximately 7.6”.  Will this case handle the depth of these unites in the rear?  Perhaps the cross-member brace is totally adjustable so this would not be an issue?   I don’t understand your comment:  “Technically they are 1 space small (SL is supposed to be 14 and these are 12 space), but they are still deep enough to fit the board in them.”
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Wali Raffiqi on May 14, 2011, 01:10:45 pm
Steve,

Yes the height (6.8") is not the issue, it's the length (or depth) of the board (22.3") that usually matters in a rack case. That is what I also meant by the 14 space, like some gear is say 2U or 4U, the SL16 is "supposed" to be 14U. But from what I've searched around, no one makes a 14U in that style road case, unless it's custom request. BUT, the 12U of the EWI cases are big enough to fit. Odyssey also makes similar cases.

Here are the pics of my board in the table combo case:
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm185/wobbles97/photo-91.jpg)

This is the top brace that I had to move up one (only because the legs of the table top take up the extra room in the lid). I probably didn't need to keep it since the board itself will keep everything intact, but it works great as a handle to grab and pull the board up.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm185/wobbles97/photo-90.jpg)

Here is the bottom fitment: There's about a 1/4" space between the board and the lid. But again, if I hadn't moved the brace up one hole, and I didn't have the legs in the lid, the extra part of the board hanging out of the case would fit just fine inside the lid when everything is closed up.
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm185/wobbles97/photo-89.jpg)

The case with the table top attached:
(http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm185/wobbles97/photo-92.jpg)
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 14, 2011, 01:35:15 pm

Yes the height (6.8") is not the issue, it's the length (or depth) of the board (22.3") that usually matters in a rack case. That is what I also meant by the 14 space, like some gear is say 2U or 4U, the SL16 is "supposed" to be 14U. But from what I've searched around, no one makes a 14U in that style road case, unless it's custom request. BUT, the 12U of the EWI cases are big enough to fit. Odyssey also makes similar cases.


Visuals speak volumes!  Thanks.  I guess what I now wonder is, must all the cabling and wires, etc., be disconnected before you re-close the case? 
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Wali Raffiqi on May 14, 2011, 01:42:50 pm
Well that would depend on your setting. If it is a mobile rig, like mine, of course, since I have to set up and take down all my gear every time I have a gig. Which I usually just reach in from the back and plug in my return snake into the DSP and QEQs. But the cables from the board to the DSP and the GEQs stay with the case. I did have to move that back brace a couple of spaces down though, to be able to clear the plugs when I put the sound board all the way down.

My future plan is to buy one of the D series panel connectors with some panel jacks from EWI and mount it on the back like that brace, that way I don't have to reach in with the return snake every time. All my plugs will be right there at the back surface.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 14, 2011, 01:50:31 pm
Well that would depend on your setting. If it is a mobile rig, like mine, of course, since I have to set up and take down all my gear every time I have a gig. Which I usually just reach in from the back and plug in my return snake into the DSP and QEQs. But the cables from the board to the DSP and the GEQs stay with the case. I did have to move that back brace a couple of spaces down though, to be able to clear the plugs when I put the sound board all the way down.

My future plan is to buy one of the D series panel connectors with some panel jacks from EWI and mount it on the back like that brace, that way I don't have to reach in with the return snake every time. All my plugs will be right there at the back surface.

Makes sense.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Wali Raffiqi on May 14, 2011, 01:55:44 pm
Makes sense.  Thanks.
No problem!

You'll love the SL though. It's a great little digital board for the price. VERY analog friendly if you've never played with a digital board before (which was my case). And the ability to mix wireless with an iPad is wonderful! :)
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 15, 2011, 10:39:29 am
Yes the height (6.8") is not the issue, it's the length (or depth) of the board (22.3") that usually matters in a rack case. That is what I also meant by the 14 space, like some gear is say 2U or 4U, the SL16 is "supposed" to be 14U. But from what I've searched around, no one makes a 14U in that style road case, unless it's custom request. BUT, the 12U of the EWI cases are big enough to fit. Odyssey also makes similar cases.

Hey Wali, do you possibly have a shot of the back of the rig without the back cover on?  Also, is your rig the C16U-P-22?
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Wali Raffiqi on May 15, 2011, 12:21:28 pm
Hey Wali, do you possibly have a shot of the back of the rig without the back cover on?  Also, is your rig the C16U-P-22?

Steve,

Unfortunately the only one I have is that last one with the table attached. I can take one for you tomorrow when I'm at home (currently at work). And yes, that's the case I have. I figured the 12U will be too short.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 15, 2011, 12:27:40 pm
Steve,

Unfortunately the only one I have is that last one with the table attached. I can take one for you tomorrow when I'm at home (currently at work). And yes, that's the case I have. I figured the 12U will be too short.

Thanks Wali.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Wali Raffiqi on May 15, 2011, 12:28:45 pm
No problem!
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Wali Raffiqi on May 15, 2011, 12:44:20 pm
Steve,

I just noticed the part number correctly. I have the C16UDJ-P-22. The C16U-P-22 is without the table. I'm sorry.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Steve Tremayne on May 15, 2011, 01:03:35 pm
Steve,

I just noticed the part number correctly. I have the C16UDJ-P-22. The C16U-P-22 is without the table. I'm sorry.

No Problem.  I'm going w/o the table.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: Jack Herlong on May 16, 2011, 10:34:24 pm
The only reason I might get a pair of 615's over some 612's is if you might set up in a small room with out subs.

Buy the 612's.  Use one sub in smaller rooms (as opposed to two).  It makes a big difference IMO.
Title: Re: Sound System Recommendation
Post by: John Livings on May 16, 2011, 11:25:20 pm



<Yes the height (6.8") is not the issue, it's the length (or depth) of the board (22.3") that usually matters in a rack case. That is what I also meant by the 14 space, like some gear is say 2U or 4U, the SL16 is "supposed" to be 14U. But from what I've searched around, no one makes a 14U in that style road case, unless it's custom request. BUT, the 12U of the EWI cases are big enough to fit. Odyssey also makes similar cases.>

Hi Wali,

OSP makes a 25 inch deep case Plus Lids.

It also works with the 01V, Soundcraft GB 16 and almost anything else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROUN0S2cRPk

Regards,  John

I bought mine from "7 Ball Music" on E-Bay