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Church and H.O.W. Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound Archive => Topic started by: Danny Ryu on December 13, 2010, 10:50:53 pm

Title: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Danny Ryu on December 13, 2010, 10:50:53 pm
Live sound will be for church(about 200 seats = 3000sqft) and height is about 14ft.

I have come up with 2different speakers. Side(right and left) we are going to use JBL MRX525 for loud speaker and on the center, we are going to flying QSC K10 speaker for Pastor's speech speaker.

I was thinking that, would it be a good idea to put center speaker to use as speech? Is there any other speakers for center flying speakers that you guys recommend?

The church place is not that big, 3000sqft and 14ft height.

We are going to have all the instrument will be playing.
Any suggestion will be appericiate!
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Dick Rees on December 13, 2010, 10:53:01 pm
danny8787 wrote on Mon, 13 December 2010 22:50

=
Any suggestion will be appericiate!


I suggest using your full name as required for participation in the Forum.  (See heading at the top of the page.))
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Danny Ryu on December 13, 2010, 10:57:48 pm
Sorry, I changed it! Thank you!
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Brad Weber on December 14, 2010, 08:21:51 am
What are the room, the audience area and the stage dimensions?  What kind of music and what is or is not run through the sound system?  What are the room acoustics like?  What is the rest of the system?  Who is going to be installing this and especially handling and flying and system tuning?  Who is going to be operating it?  What is your budget?  These are some of the more general considerations that should be part a speaker assessment.

How did you come up with the particular speaker models noted?  What made them seem good choices for you?  Knowing why you came to the conclusions you did may provide some insights into your goals and priorities.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on December 14, 2010, 09:05:54 am
Danny Ryu wrote on Mon, 13 December 2010 22:50

Live sound will be for church(about 200 seats = 3000sqft) and height is about 14ft.

I have come up with 2different speakers. Side(right and left) we are going to use JBL MRX525 for loud speaker and on the center, we are going to flying QSC K10 speaker for Pastor's speech speaker.

I was thinking that, would it be a good idea to put center speaker to use as speech? Is there any other speakers for center flying speakers that you guys recommend?

The church place is not that big, 3000sqft and 14ft height.

We are going to have all the instrument will be playing.
Any suggestion will be appericiate!


Along with needing the answers to Brads questions, I have some observations.

1. The QSC is just as capable of handling "loud" as the JBLj just depends on what kind of loud. With a 14' ceiling it is unlikely that you will be able to cover the space with just one box. It is both redundant and unnecessary to run speech through one speaker and every thing else through an other set.

2. I would not install an MRX525 in your space (or any other church)

Just because the speaker looks big and foreboding does not mean it is any more capable than quality 2 way 12' boxes. In fact I would say the horn in the QSC is  likely of at-least very similar capabilities.

Just in general the MRX525 as a HOW instal box are a bad idea. I would move up to K12s add a sub and call it a day. When you tell us the dimensions of the space we can talk about the arrangement.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Danny Ryu on December 14, 2010, 08:37:37 pm
Thank you for the kind information.

Our church chapel size is about 3000sqft and height 14ft.
All four side is done by dry wall, and on top of the ceiling will be 1/3 will be dry wall and 2/3 will be drop ceiling.

There are some little feedback but not much.(still under the construction)

We will be using Behringer MX32 / EQ DBX231 31 dual band / Compressor DBX266XL

I will be the persone who will be operating these equipment.
And flying speaker will be person who does working in PA field.

MRX525 and QSC K10, I got this speaker recommeded by guitar center sales guy.

We thought we need something loud speaker and something to cover up the speech(guitar center highly recommed QSC...)

Like you mention, K12 with subwoofer, would it be okay to cover our church? All the instrument will be playing(Guitar,Bass,Keyboard,Drum and Mic)

There is no budget set yet.
Just the speaker we got quote from guitar center was about $3500(2*MRX525 and 2*QSC K10)

We try not to spend no more than $3500.

Any feedback will be very appericiate!

Thank you!

Danny
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Sidney.Pilien on December 14, 2010, 11:41:12 pm
The guitar center sales guy is crazy. The MRX is overkill for that venue. The power amp(s) required for those speakers may kill your budget if you don't already have one (or two). It's also not horn loaded.

The K10 and sub is designed primarily for dj work hence the multiple inputs on the rear panel and portability. The K12 is a better choice for sides but  still, you don't need all those inputs.

If you add  subs, you will need to budget the amp(s) also. For the square footage, the bass amp is all you need. Miking drums and all the instruments will be too loud and bury the vocals. Just feed the keyboard and go from there.

Any stage monitors?

Brad asked for room acoustics. Carpeting, tile flooring or wood? Chairs or pews? Open windows or A/C?

Ar you buying retail? Online is way cheaper.

You will still need to give more info:
What are the room dimensions (feet wide x feet deep) not including the stage.
Music or worship style- loud contemporary or mellow conservative or in between.






Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on December 14, 2010, 11:52:32 pm
Danny,

You have given the square footage but not the dimensions. 3000 square feet could be 3' X 1000' or 55' X 55'.

A set of K12s with a sub would be just as if not more capable than a set of MRX525s. It sort of blows my mind some of the advice guitar center guys give out. I would take the money you save by just getting one set of speakers to get a DSP.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on December 15, 2010, 12:06:43 am
see below
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on December 15, 2010, 12:08:28 am
Sidney Pilien wrote on Tue, 14 December 2010 23:41

The guitar center sales guy is crazy.


Agreed!

Quote:

The K12 is a better choice for sides but  still, you don't need all those inputs.


The K12 is meant to be a all purpose speaker, I don't see the added inputs as a detriment.

Quote:

If you add  subs, you will need to budget the amp(s) also


or you could get the match QSC powered sub.

Quote:

 For the square footage, the bass amp is all you need. Miking drums and all the instruments will be too loud and bury the vocals. Just feed the keyboard and go from there.


Not necessarily true. I would not mic the entire kit, however a kick drum mic and a few overheads would be helpful. A good bass amp could carry a room of that size, but it may annoy other on stage for it to be at a loud enough level to do that. Sending a feed to the board would be a more flexible arrangement.


Quote:

Ar you buying retail? Online is way cheaper.


Not necessarily true, I can often beat online pricing as a dealer, and as a contractor offer help with design, installation, and master planning of the system. Not to mention I will install speakers I sell more affordably than ones I did not.

Check out your local contractors, in the end you may end up much better off.











Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Jeff Johnson on December 15, 2010, 12:21:22 am
Danny,

  I would recomend scrapping all the guitar center salesman's ideas and starting fresh. Although the jbls and the qscs are alright speakers, neither is really suited to this environment. Jbls are probably a bit too much and the qscs (can they even be flown?) will require two cable runs and are a bit too easy for anyone to tamper with. In most cases I would not recomend using powered speakers for an installed system.
 My thought would be to fly 3 yamaha c115v (15" tops, and they do make them with flyware) as a center cluster and power them with one chanel of a crown xti2000. Use the other channel to power a yamaha cw218v (2x 18" sub) sitting on the ground somewhere. The xti 2000 has dsp so you won't need to buy a crossover and you'll have some extra control over your system. Granted everything will be in mono but you'll come in well under $3500 and those yamahas sound (and look) really nice for what they cost. The company I work for bought 4 pairs a few years ago as something cheap to throw around and they have exceeded all of our expectations. Should be more than enough power, if it's too much you can downgrade to 3 c112v(12" tops), 1 cw118v (18" sub) and an xti 1000.  All of those cabinets can be painted white to blend a little better too.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Brad Weber on December 15, 2010, 07:23:39 am
I believe that even basic issues such as mono versus stereo versus LCR or mono+stereo, much less the specific speaker and amplifier models, have to be decided based on the physical space and the intended use.  Right now we don't even know whether the 3,000 square foot floor area is 20' wide and 150' deep or 50' wide and 60' deep or 100' wide and 30' deep.  We also don't know what style of music, levels, instruments, etc. are involved.

To put it nicely, at least most GC employees work with people that are looking for lower cost portable systems and they rarely have much, if any, background or education in installed sound.  Along with issues such as having to consider code compliance and safety, addressing a system to be permanently installed in a venue with the goal of serving for many years takes a bit different approach than looking for something you can easily move and use in a variety of venues until you take the next step.

I find that properly deployed LCR or mono+stereo systems can be a good option in churches that straddle traditional speech oriented and contemporary music oriented goals, but the related cost and more complex operation is not always practical or justified.  However, since you mentioned that the space was under construction then any ideas such as flying a center powered speaker does bring up the issue of what infrastructure or provisions for the sound system have been incorporated in the rest of the construction.  Does the work being done include any conduit, power, hang points, acoustical treatment, etc. to support the sound system?  Are you at a point where running cables or adding a power receptacle could require tearing apart brand new walls?

And on a detail, you mentioned that the any flying would be handled by someone who works in the PA field.  They may be qualified but not just by working in sound reinforcement.  Because it is a potential safety issue, flying speakers should always be handled by someone with the proper rigging experience and knowledge as well as the appropriate liability insurance, etc. to protect the church.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on December 15, 2010, 09:28:29 am
Jeff Johnson wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 00:21

 Although the jbls and the qscs are alright speakers, neither is really suited to this environment. Jbls are probably a bit too much and the qscs (can they even be flown?) will require two cable runs and are a bit too easy for anyone to tamper with.


I am not sure that particular JBL would have been the best choice for any church install I have done.

As for the QSC is is a fine choice for an instal, (and if you are are going to be po-po on a speaker you should know the details about it- yes it can be flown)


Quote:

In most cases I would not recomend using powered speakers for an installed system.


You do know some of the most high end installation cabinets are powered right?  Meyer (the entire line) and JBL venue series to name a few. In most cases power speakers are a fine choice for an installation. There are some factors that may cause you not to go that route, but to say one should avoid powered speakers in most installation environments is just wrong.
 

Quote:

My thought would be to fly 3 yamaha c115v (15" tops, and they do make them with flyware) as a center cluster and power them with one chanel of a crown xti2000. Use the other channel to power a yamaha cw218v (2x 18" sub) sitting on the ground somewhere. The xti 2000 has dsp so you won't need to buy a crossover and you'll have some extra control over your system. Granted everything will be in mono but you'll come in well under $3500 and those yamahas sound (and look) really nice for what they cost. The company I work for bought 4 pairs a few years ago as something cheap to throw around and they have exceeded all of our expectations. Should be more than enough power, if it's too much you can downgrade to 3 c112v(12" tops), 1 cw118v (18" sub) and an xti 1000


A few thoughts here:

We don't know the dimensions of the room, so why would you suggest 3?

Why is going to a 12" a "downgrade"? That is a more appropriate speaker choice for most churches and often sounds better than a 15" box in a HOW application.

You questioned the QSCs ability to be flown (even though they are designed to be), and then suggested a speaker that can not be flown.


Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on December 15, 2010, 09:55:54 am
Brad Weber wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 07:23



And on a detail, you mentioned that the any flying would be handled by someone who works in the PA field.  They may be qualified but not just by working in sound reinforcement.  Because it is a potential safety issue, flying speakers should always be handled by someone with the proper rigging experience and knowledge as well as the appropriate liability insurance, etc. to protect the church.


As a side bar on budget. A typical installation company will charge about $600-1000 to instal a pair of speakers (assuming they sold them to you), add several hundred to that if you saved money by buying them online.

So lets add it up realistically:

QSC K12 (assume 2 will do the job)  $700 X2 - $1400
QSC KSub                                                                   $1050
Electrical/signal wire                                                $200
Driverack PX DSP                                                       $400
Profesional installation                                            $700

                                                     Total- $3750


This would be a lot of pop for that amount of money, however if the space requires more than 2 boxes then it would totally blow that budget.

That budget is making a lot of assumptions about the space, if there are other challenges it would go up from there.

Gary

Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Dick Rees on December 15, 2010, 10:49:09 am
Gary....

I'd be a little cautious in posting dollar amounts for folks.  Some areas have higher rates than others.  Plus the installation cost is the wild card.  There's no way to tell how many hours it will take to do the job.  Bidding a fixed cost for labor without a thorough on-site consultation is a quick way for the installer to "take a bath".

For most of the install work I've been involved in the time/labor is the make it or break it issue in the budget.

DR  
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on December 15, 2010, 11:51:04 am
Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 10:49

Gary....

I'd be a little cautious in posting dollar amounts for folks.  Some areas have higher rates than others.  Plus the installation cost is the wild card.  There's no way to tell how many hours it will take to do the job.  Bidding a fixed cost for labor without a thorough on-site consultation is a quick way for the installer to "take a bath".

For most of the install work I've been involved in the time/labor is the make it or break it issue in the budget.

DR  


The gear prices are US map prices and should be a safe bet in the US (trust me I considered that).

I gave a pretty wide range of cost, and was not giving a quote. With a 14' ceiling that is a reasonable range. This was to give a ball park not a quote, and that is a fair ball park.

Did you really think I was giving a quote for me to do that work on an online forum?

Quote:

For most of the install work I've been involved in the time/labor is the make it or break it issue in the budget.


My experience is installation in the context of entire project is give or take 10-15% of the overall cost.  10-15% can be make or break, but is certainly not the "big wild card".  

Granted on something this small installation can play a much larger role, and if you read my post I do mention it is a starting point and complications will add to the cost.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Jeff Johnson on December 15, 2010, 12:20:43 pm
Quote:

I am not sure that particular JBL would have been the best choice for any church install I have done.



I agree, I was just being gentle

Quote:

As for the QSC is is a fine choice for an instal, (and if you are are going to be po-po on a speaker you should know the details about it- yes it can be flown)



The real reason that I'm po-po on the the k - line of speakers is that I think they sound horrendous (Yes, I have worked with them multiple times). The reason that I don't like them for this install in particular is because this is meant to a simple, and cheap install. Running an extra cicuit for these to be plugged in to is neither simple or cheap.

Quote:

You do know some of the most high end installation cabinets are powered right? Meyer (the entire line) and JBL venue series to name a few. In most cases power speakers are a fine choice for an installation. There are some factors that may cause you not to go that route, but to say one should avoid powered speakers in most installation environments is just wrong.


My fault, I should have been more specific. I would not use powered speakers designed for djs and garage bands in an install(unless they are being used as monitors). And I think we can agree that most jbl/meyer powered would be overkill in this venue.

Quote:

We don't know the dimensions of the room, so why would you suggest 3?



In a properly flown center cluster, 3 cabinets can be aligned to cover almost any shape.

Quote:

Why is going to a 12" a "downgrade"? That is a more appropriate speaker choice for most churches and often sounds better than a 15" box in a HOW application.



I guess downgrade wasn't the word I was looking for; I simply meant a less powerful and less expensive system.

Quote:

You questioned the QSCs ability to be flown (even though they are designed to be), and then suggested a speaker that can not be flown.


I must have imagined buying these cabinets with flyware then.
Quote:

 if you are are going to be po-po on a speaker you should know the details about it- yes it can be flown


I'm not trying to be argumenative here, he asked for an inexpensive and easy solution and I gave it to him. Why are we all stuck on qsc gear? Do we not consider multiple options?
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on December 15, 2010, 01:32:29 pm
Jeff Johnson wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 12:20

he asked for an inexpensive and easy solution and I gave it to him.


What you gave him is a solution that can not be flown, which was part of the requirement, and suggest the lack of flying ability as a detriment to the QSC. That made the particular solution you gave problematic.


Quote:

Why are we all stuck on qsc gear? Do we not consider multiple options?


I don't think we are stuck on it, but at this price point it is a good choice. There are others, like JBL PRX, or EONs, and so on. I am of the opinion that the QSC is one of the better choices, and I would take that over Yamaha club series all day long.

It is not that the QSC are the only choice here, just that QSC Ks are among the good choices.

As a side bar I think they sound great.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Brad Weber on December 15, 2010, 01:49:43 pm
Jeff Johnson wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 12:20

Quote:

We don't know the dimensions of the room, so why would you suggest 3?



In a properly flown center cluster, 3 cabinets can be aligned to cover almost any shape.

While placing overlap in aisles or being able to work around excessive coverage may provide some leeway, in general multiple boxes will only properly array to provide one specific pattern and that is if they array well at all.  We don't know what overall coverage or pattern is involved much less how many of a particular speaker might be appropriate in order to provide that coverage.

Jeff Johnson wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 12:20

Quote:

Why is going to a 12" a "downgrade"? That is a more appropriate speaker choice for most churches and often sounds better than a 15" box in a HOW application.



I guess downgrade wasn't the word I was looking for; I simply meant a less powerful and less expensive system.

Other than perhaps within a single product series or line you cannot really generalize the relative performance of a 12" versus 15" woofer box.  And what really matters is that the speaker works for the application, which again means understanding the application before determining what might be appropriate or a viable option.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Jeff Johnson on December 15, 2010, 02:01:58 pm
Again, they can be flown. Sorry, I forgot the A on the end before.

C115VA
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/312935-REG/Yamaha_C115 VA_C115VA_15_2_Way.html

C112VA
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/312934-REG/Yamaha_C112 VA_C112VA_12_2_Way.html

I also would have taken QSC powered over Yamaha Club series before I mixed on these. I was truly impressed and surprised. A lot of people (many of whom should know better) have mistaken these for EV X-Array/QRX/Pheonix after hearing them. They look pretty similar too once you pull the yamaha emblem off of the grill lol. But as someone who is used to working with EAW and EV gear, I can tell you there is nothing wrong with these speakers.

I can agree to disagree on the sound quality of the qsc gear. Maybe the ones I used were made on a friday afternoon/monday morning haha.

Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Jeff Johnson on December 15, 2010, 02:08:00 pm
Quote:

While placing overlap in aisles or being able to work around excessive coverage may provide some leeway, in general multiple boxes will only properly array to provide one specific pattern and that is if they array well at all. We don't know what overall coverage or pattern is involved much less how many of a particular speaker might be appropriate in order to provide that coverage.


I agree, it's just that I find that three boxes normally ends up being the appropriate number. By no means am I saying that that is the best option for this space, it is simply a workable solution. We aren't talking a $100,000 install here, just a couple speakers in a small church.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Dick Rees on December 15, 2010, 04:14:29 pm
Danny Ryu wrote on Mon, 13 December 2010 22:50

Live sound will be for church(about 200 seats = 3000sqft) and height is about 14ft.

I have come up with 2different speakers. Side(right and left) we are going to use JBL MRX525 for loud speaker and on the center, we are going to flying QSC K10 speaker for Pastor's speech speaker.

I was thinking that, would it be a good idea to put center speaker to use as speech? Is there any other speakers for center flying speakers that you guys recommend?

The church place is not that big, 3000sqft and 14ft height.

We are going to have all the instrument will be playing.
Any suggestion will be appericiate!



Danny....

Lots of discussion and the usual digressions.  Let's go back to square one if we may.

The separate speaker for the Pastor makes sense.  Whether it takes one or two to get the coverage you need is an open question.  For voice only you can use a small speaker.  Something with an 8" woofer and a nice HF driver would suffice.  A K10 or K12 would certainly work, but a smaller, less expensive box or boxes would work equally well for voice only.

As to the need for a sub......I'm old school and prefer for the bass to carry the room on its own.  It doesn't take very much bass in a room like that to be too much.  As long as the bassist is a cooperative person you'll be OK.

As long as you are planning on flying the voice speaker(s), I'd say find a reputable installer and ask them to come in and bid the job and see if they have any further recommendations once they've been on-site.

The only other issue I can think of is whether or not to make the voice-only speaker a powered or a passive speaker.  If passive, you only have to run speaker cable.  If powered, you need to supply AC and some way of sequencing the power up/down so that it comes on last and off first.


DR
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Brad Weber on December 15, 2010, 04:37:53 pm
Jeff Johnson wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 14:08

I agree, it's just that I find that three boxes normally ends up being the appropriate number. By no means am I saying that that is the best option for this space, it is simply a workable solution. We aren't talking a $100,000 install here, just a couple speakers in a small church.

I am really not trying to be argumentative and it might be different with some speaker models but the Yamaha C115V/C115VA and C112V/C112VA are all nominal 90x40 patterns and at least in my experience a somewhere around 270x40 degree horizontal coverage is not usually appropriate or desired for most applications.  Poor intelligibility, insufficient gain before feedback and so on are not necessarily any more acceptable on smaller or lower budget projects than they are on big projects, especially if better results may be possible with a similar budget.

If you ran the three speakers with the center speaker on one channel and the outer pair on another and then employed amplitude and/or frequency shading, that could be interesting but also much more complex and costly.  Otherwise, I'm guessing that one or two boxes would be a more likely option but without knowing the room dimensions, etc. that is still just guessing.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on December 15, 2010, 05:11:34 pm
Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 16:14

The separate speaker for the Pastor makes sense.  


Help me understand why this makes sense? Dannys got $3500 to get new speakers, so good advice is to suggest a solution that requires the room to be covered twice?


Quote:

As to the need for a sub......I'm old school and prefer for the bass to carry the room on its own.  It doesn't take very much bass in a room like that to be too much.  As long as the bassist is a cooperative person you'll be OK.


The bass Guitar is not the only instrument that would benefit from a sub: Keys, guitars, and kick drums would also be likely candidates.




Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Dick Rees on December 15, 2010, 05:29:22 pm
Gary Creely wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 17:11

Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 16:14

The separate speaker for the Pastor makes sense.  


Help me understand why this makes sense? Dannys got $3500 to get new speakers, so good advice is to suggest a solution that requires the room to be covered twice?


Quote:

As to the need for a sub......I'm old school and prefer for the bass to carry the room on its own.  It doesn't take very much bass in a room like that to be too much.  As long as the bassist is a cooperative person you'll be OK.


The bass Guitar is not the only instrument that would benefit from a sub: Keys, guitars, and kick drums would also be likely candidates.



"I'd like to help you out. Which way'd you come in?"

....Groucho Marx  
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Danny Ryu on December 15, 2010, 11:21:09 pm
Thanks for all the kind input!

Our church size is 44 x 57

and I am not only looking to buy a QSC K series speaker.
It is welcome to give me a different company.

We do have EON G2 but we are going to give it to the youth group. Seems like it has good power but for the speech wasn't too good.(before church has a lots of feedback)

People will start finish up the ceiling soon and I will see how the sound feedback goes. Not sure now....

someone mention about the instruments.
Bass will have own amp, but I would like to send it through the main speaker, and Drum will use full mic set, but only for rec. Room is not that big enough to use drum mic, maybe use kick and ambeience mic for drums. Keyboard, will definitely send to main speaker(keyboard does not have any own speaker) And also guitar sound send to main speaker(have own speaker but use that as monitor speaker)

I am kind worry about QSC K series speakers.
Would it be cover all the instrument?
I know that K12 will cover our chapel but how about instrument?
We are not just play keyboard and voal through speaker.

Some people keep mentioning about small church, and no need big loud speaker. But why can't small church play loud music and full instrument?

I assume that someone come up with the sub.

I never seen any church use sub speaker yet, but I am pretty sure that all the instrument will get benefit from the sub speakers.

Any other input is welcome!

Thanks for all the good information!
Hope our church will make good sound because of you guys!
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on December 16, 2010, 03:06:39 am
Danny Ryu wrote on Thu, 16 December 2010 04:21


Our church size is 44 x 57



I believe you mentioned 14' maximum height in an earlier post. This makes it a non-trivial project. Rather big wide room with a low ceiling. I don't think that a SWAG (Scientific Wild-Assed Guess) system will suffice.

One basic rule of thumb is that the actual distance from a speaker to the nearest and furthest audience members must be within a 2:1 range for speakers with normal uniform coverage. I think your ceiling is too low and the room is too big for speakers that are all in one line to cover. Draw a scaled picture of the side view for a person in the center front row and one in the back corner and see for yourself.

There are speakers that are designed to overcome this problem, but applying them properly takes some skill and experience that you may need to engage a professional audio system designer to obtain. I'm not talking some sales guy in a music store or a guy who has his own sound system down the street. I'm talking a professional audio consultant with a history of being able to handle somewhat tough situations like yours. This is not an easy room that you have here.

You didn't mention the the ceiling, wall and floor materials or the type of seating. The room's acoustics may be problematical to start with in which case no sound system will be acceptable all by itself.

If you want to teach yourself to be a sound system engineer on your own, or your church's budget that's fine, but it is probably not the best use of your money or God's time or money.

If you are going to proceed by yourself, you need to consider the horizontal coverage pattern of the speakers. You need to expand your scaled drawing to both the plan and side views, and include the coverage of the speakers from vendor spec sheets.

You may find that you will  need to use speakers that are dispersed, such as one row by the platform and another row  half way down the room to obtain reasonably uniform coverage. There will need to be a time delay to avoid creating a lot of false echoes.

You are well-advised to try to build a system that can eliminate the use of individual amplifiers by musicians or at least augment them, because musician's amplifiers will encounter coverage problems in a room with your configuration. They will be worse off than for the speakers because you won't be able to mount them 14' feet up!

The big red flag in the original proposal that you received was the phrase "Pastor's speech speaker". *all* of the speakers in a good sound system must be capable of doing a good job on speech.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Brad Weber on December 16, 2010, 08:20:57 am
Danny Ryu wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 23:21

Our church size is 44 x 57

Is that 44' wide and 57' deep or 57' wide and 44' deep?  Is that the overall size or the size of the listener area?  Might it be something like an overall 57' deep space with a 10' deep stage and then 3' before the seating?  Are there any specifics like having a thrust stage with seating to the sides of the stage?

Danny Ryu wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 23:21

People will start finish up the ceiling soon and I will see how the sound feedback goes. Not sure now....

How do you plan to get cable from the stage to the mix position and from there to the amps or speakers?  Do you have conduit and raceways in place or are you going to have to tear open brand new walls and ceilings in order to run cables?  Is the sheetrock ceiling section over the stage where it would have to be torn open to hang any speakers?

Do you have power at the stage for all the instruments?  What about at the stage or ceiling for any powered speakers or does that alone eliminate that option?  How much power do you have at the mix position and would that also be where any amplifiers would be located?

Danny Ryu wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 23:21

Some people keep mentioning about small church, and no need big loud speaker. But why can't small church play loud music and full instrument?

No reason it can't, the issue is really just dealing with a physically smaller space.  This means not only differences in how loud the speakers may have to be to get the desired levels to the people furthest away but also things like how much the sound directly from the drums, amps, monitors, etc. on stage may affect the listeners.

Another aspect of this relates to the issues noted above, when you want to support a high energy, contemporary service then that can affect the space beyond just the speakers and amps.  In order to achieve the most successful result then along with having an appropriate audio system you need to make sure you have the necessary stage and tech space, accommodate all the related cabling, address the associated power, make sure you have appropriate provisions for the required speaker system and provide a proper acoustical environment.  These factors are just as important regardless of the physical size or number of members.  If you have not addressed these and the space is almost complete then that may drive some of the decisions for the sound system.

These are just a few examples of how this might be a factor.  If you don't have power at the ceiling or sufficient power at the stage then powered speakers are probably not an option.  If the ceiling where any speakers would be flown is sheetrock and that is already installed then flying speakers may be impractical or at least more difficult and expensive.  If you only have a single 20A power circuit at the mix position and that is where any amplifiers have to go then that may limit what you can do as far as amplification.  The point is that once a room is at the point yours apparently is you often end up having to respond to rather than integrate with the rest of the space.  I'm not saying that you can't potentially obtain a good result but some of the sound system issues you are addressing may be greatly driven by other factors.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on December 16, 2010, 10:56:06 am
Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 17:29

Gary Creely wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 17:11

Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 16:14

The separate speaker for the Pastor makes sense.  


Help me understand why this makes sense? Dannys got $3500 to get new speakers, so good advice is to suggest a solution that requires the room to be covered twice?


Quote:

As to the need for a sub......I'm old school and prefer for the bass to carry the room on its own.  It doesn't take very much bass in a room like that to be too much.  As long as the bassist is a cooperative person you'll be OK.


The bass Guitar is not the only instrument that would benefit from a sub: Keys, guitars, and kick drums would also be likely candidates.



"I'd like to help you out. Which way'd you come in?"

....Groucho Marx  


I assume that to mean it was a bad idea.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Danny Ryu on December 20, 2010, 08:47:38 pm
Brad Weber wrote on Thu, 16 December 2010 08:20

Danny Ryu wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 23:21

Our church size is 44 x 57

Is that 44' wide and 57' deep or 57' wide and 44' deep?  Is that the overall size or the size of the listener area?  Might it be something like an overall 57' deep space with a 10' deep stage and then 3' before the seating?  Are there any specifics like having a thrust stage with seating to the sides of the stage?

Danny Ryu wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 23:21

People will start finish up the ceiling soon and I will see how the sound feedback goes. Not sure now....

How do you plan to get cable from the stage to the mix position and from there to the amps or speakers?  Do you have conduit and raceways in place or are you going to have to tear open brand new walls and ceilings in order to run cables?  Is the sheetrock ceiling section over the stage where it would have to be torn open to hang any speakers?

Do you have power at the stage for all the instruments?  What about at the stage or ceiling for any powered speakers or does that alone eliminate that option?  How much power do you have at the mix position and would that also be where any amplifiers would be located?

Danny Ryu wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 23:21

Some people keep mentioning about small church, and no need big loud speaker. But why can't small church play loud music and full instrument?

No reason it can't, the issue is really just dealing with a physically smaller space.  This means not only differences in how loud the speakers may have to be to get the desired levels to the people furthest away but also things like how much the sound directly from the drums, amps, monitors, etc. on stage may affect the listeners.

Another aspect of this relates to the issues noted above, when you want to support a high energy, contemporary service then that can affect the space beyond just the speakers and amps.  In order to achieve the most successful result then along with having an appropriate audio system you need to make sure you have the necessary stage and tech space, accommodate all the related cabling, address the associated power, make sure you have appropriate provisions for the required speaker system and provide a proper acoustical environment.  These factors are just as important regardless of the physical size or number of members.  If you have not addressed these and the space is almost complete then that may drive some of the decisions for the sound system.

These are just a few examples of how this might be a factor.  If you don't have power at the ceiling or sufficient power at the stage then powered speakers are probably not an option.  If the ceiling where any speakers would be flown is sheetrock and that is already installed then flying speakers may be impractical or at least more difficult and expensive.  If you only have a single 20A power circuit at the mix position and that is where any amplifiers have to go then that may limit what you can do as far as amplification.  The point is that once a room is at the point yours apparently is you often end up having to respond to rather than integrate with the rest of the space.  I'm not saying that you can't potentially obtain a good result but some of the sound system issues you are addressing may be greatly driven by other factors.



Thank you for the information.
As I mention the size of the chapel and I can tell you now about our chapel floor. 1/3 will be tile and rest of the 2/3 will be carpet. All around the side wall will be dry wall. They havne't finish up the floor yet. The ceiling is already done.

I ran the 2C microphone cable already on the ceiling.
I ran 2 cable on the center(as we mention about the center speaker) and 2 more cable on the each end side.
We also ran 16ch snake cable on the top of the ceiling to the floor already.

As you mentioned about the power outlet on the top of the ceiling have done. Incase, we might going to use active speaker. I asked to the electrician guy to make 3 different power outlet from the circuit breaker.(2for lightning system, 1 for center speaker)

Be honest with you, that I have no clue how many watts I do need for our music system. For the speech will not need 500watts or 1000watts for the speech, but as far as the music will need some more than what speech using.

Now I kind of get some idea but now sure yet.
Instead of flying 4 speakers, flying 2 * 12inch speaker on the center and add 2 sub.

I am pretty sure that, most of the instrument will get a lots of benefit from the sub.

Our budget still $3500 for the speaker with amp....

Thank you so much for all the help!
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on December 20, 2010, 09:25:49 pm
Danny,

Please answer Brad's questions regarding the size of you space. You gave us the dimensions, but you did not say-

is the the platform (stage) on the 44' or 57' side.

Also do those dimensions include the size of the platform, or not.

Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Danny Ryu on December 20, 2010, 11:07:57 pm
Sorry, here is the pic of the chapel floor plan. I hope this will help....index.php/fa/552/0/
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on December 21, 2010, 12:01:08 am
Danny Ryu wrote on Mon, 20 December 2010 23:07

Sorry, here is the pic of the chapel floor plan. I hope this will help....index.php/fa/552/0/


That helps very much. Looks like you are trying to cover an area that will be about 45 wide and 35' deep (assuming some space between the edge of the stage ant the front row)

I would have a couple of general recommendations.

1. I would want to install the speaker horizontally because of the 14' ceiling.  

2. I would suggest just 2 boxes in there, and a sub

3. If $3500 is the absolute ceiling I would suggest holding off until you could get to around $5000. That extra $1500 will go a really long way in terms of the end product.  

Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Danny Ryu on December 24, 2010, 05:21:50 pm
Thanks Gary.

What speaker would you recommend?

I was thinking about QSC KW122 instead of K12...
But I realize it will be hard for me to turn on/off the speaker everytime.

What do you think about
2*EAW FR129z with QSC RMX 2450 amp?

I also ran couple of (100ft)2C Microphone cable on the top of the ceiling.
does 2C Microphone cable is okay to use as speaker cable? since the cable is pretty long,100ft ran.

I am going to buy speakon connector and neutrik XLR connector.

Should I use 2*2C Microphone cable to use as one cable?
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 25, 2010, 08:40:11 pm
Danny Ryu wrote on Fri, 24 December 2010 17:21

Thanks Gary.

What speaker would you recommend?

I was thinking about QSC KW122 instead of K12...
But I realize it will be hard for me to turn on/off the speaker everytime.

What do you think about
2*EAW FR129z with QSC RMX 2450 amp?

I also ran couple of (100ft)2C Microphone cable on the top of the ceiling.
does 2C Microphone cable is okay to use as speaker cable? since the cable is pretty long,100ft ran.

I am going to buy speakon connector and neutrik XLR connector.

Should I use 2*2C Microphone cable to use as one cable?


NO- you need to ran 12 ga speaker cable.

Don't EVER use a mic cable as a speaker cable.  You are only asking for trouble and possible damage to your amplifier by doing so.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on December 25, 2010, 10:47:22 pm
Danny Ryu wrote on Fri, 24 December 2010 17:21

Thanks Gary.

What speaker would you recommend?

I was thinking about QSC KW122 instead of K12...
But I realize it will be hard for me to turn on/off the speaker everytime.

What do you think about
2*EAW FR129z with QSC RMX 2450 amp?

I also ran couple of (100ft)2C Microphone cable on the top of the ceiling.
does 2C Microphone cable is okay to use as speaker cable? since the cable is pretty long,100ft ran.

I am going to buy speakon connector and neutrik XLR connector.

Should I use 2*2C Microphone cable to use as one cable?



I used those EAW frz129s in my last church and liked them very much. The QSCs are nice as well.

As for turning powered speakers on and off remotely you could use a product like this-

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/181308-REG/Furman_MP_1 5_Miniport_15_Power_Relay.html

this would be able to power both speakers.

As Ivan mentioned you do not want to use mic cable for passive speakers. Typically mic cables are 22ga or less. You would be ok with 14ga, but I would not suggest anything less for mains.

If you run power through the mic cables you will lose a lot of performance, and potentially harm the equiptment.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Danny Ryu on December 26, 2010, 02:02:19 am
Oh... I bought 1000ft spool cable...
What if the 12GA cable does not have ground shielded? is it okay?
And as far as the price, they are pretty expensive..

This is something I never know about it.
We currently using microphone cable as speaker cable.
Wow... I learned something!

I will probably have to buy 12GA cable and re-run the wire.

And important thing that, our budget is little chagned..
We probably have to get the subwoofer sometime next month.
We might just going to buy the 2 main speaker...

I guess we might just going to get EAW FR series.. and we will add sub next month.

12" should be loud enough to cover the drum or any acoustic sound? If the speaker could not cover the drum sound, then I will let drummer use rose stick...lol
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on December 26, 2010, 08:18:07 am
Danny Ryu wrote on Sun, 26 December 2010 02:02

Oh... I bought 1000ft spool cable...
What if the 12GA cable does not have ground shielded? is it okay?
And as far as the price, they are pretty expensive..

This is something I never know about it.
We currently using microphone cable as speaker cable.
Wow... I learned something!

I will probably have to buy 12GA cable and re-run the wire.

And important thing that, our budget is little chagned..
We probably have to get the subwoofer sometime next month.
We might just going to buy the 2 main speaker...

I guess we might just going to get EAW FR series.. and we will add sub next month.

12" should be loud enough to cover the drum or any acoustic sound? If the speaker could not cover the drum sound, then I will let drummer use rose stick...lol


The speaker wire does not need to be grounded or shielded.

The difference between a 12" and 15" has let to do with loudness and more to do with bass response, and frequency response in general. In most speaker lines the difference in performance between the 12" and 15" is relatively minor. I prefer 12"s in the church setting because to me they seem more articulate (often they are crossed-over at a different freq), and they are simple physically smaller (which is typically desirable).

With out a sub I would just hold off sending the kick drum, and the bass guitar through the system.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Danny Ryu on January 05, 2011, 10:01:38 pm
Thanks Gary!

More question comming...
You mention the 12GA speaker cable
Instaed of buying expensive speaker cable, can I use any 12GA cable?

I am not sure yet, but most likely we will end up buying a sub.
Instead of put the sub on the floor, would it be possible to mount the sub with the main speaker on the ceiling?

If not, we will have to run a extra speaker cable for the sub later.

And I ordered 7 x 2female microphone wall plate. I will use about 120ft cable for all the wall plate to mixer.

120ft is okay to use? Do I need to use any repeater?
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on January 05, 2011, 11:27:42 pm
Danny Ryu wrote on Wed, 05 January 2011 22:01

Thanks Gary!

You mention the 12GA speaker cable
Instaed of buying expensive speaker cable, can I use any 12GA cable?


It does not need to be expensive wire, and it does not need to be 12GA. You could go to your local electrical supply house (not best buy or guitar center) and get 14GA speaker cable at a pretty affordable price.

Quote:

If not, we will have to run a extra speaker cable for the sub later.


I would not try to fly the sub for a number of reasons. For the sub go ahead and use 12GA.

Quote:

And I ordered 7 x 2female microphone wall plate. I will use about 120ft cable for all the wall plate to mixer.

120ft is okay to use? Do I need to use any repeater?


120' is no problem for mic lines, no repeaters needed. What is important is that you use the proper wire such as this: http://www.markertek.com/Cables/Bulk-Wire-Cable/Bulk-Audio-C able/West-Penn-Wire-Corp/291-BLACK.xhtml?WP-291-1000YW
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Danny Ryu on January 06, 2011, 12:22:54 am
http://www.cablewholesale.com/specs/microphone-cable/60m2-02 1th.htm

That is the microphone cable that I have bought.
Seems okay to me... So I will run this cable this weekend.

Could you tell me, what will be the reason not to fly sub?
There is no place to put the sub in the floor, thats why I come up with the flying idea.... will that be really serious problem to flying the sub?

I've seen some church flying the sub...(really high ceiling..)

Thank you!
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Sidney.Pilien on January 06, 2011, 12:45:47 am
Quote:

And I ordered 7 x 2female microphone wall plate. I will use about 120ft cable for all the wall plate to mixer.

120ft is okay to use? Do I need to use any repeater?


120' is no problem for mic lines, no repeaters needed. What is important is that you use the proper wire such as this:  http://www.markertek.com/Cables/Bulk-Wire-Cable/Bulk-Audio-C able/West-Penn-Wire-Corp/291-BLACK.xhtml?WP-291-1000YW
[/quote]

Stay away from foil shielded cables for snake runs. They're ugly when exposed for termination at the mixer side and are not numbered. Jacketed numbered multi pair (14?) is what you'll need like maybe http://www.fullcompass.com/product/251795.html.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Sidney.Pilien on January 06, 2011, 01:06:39 am
Danny Ryu wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 00:22

 http://www.cablewholesale.com/specs/microphone-cable/60m2-02 1th.htm

That is the microphone cable that I have bought.
Seems okay to me... So I will run this cable this weekend.

Could you tell me, what will be the reason not to fly sub?
There is no place to put the sub in the floor, thats why I come up with the flying idea.... will that be really serious problem to flying the sub?

I've seen some church flying the sub...(really high ceiling..)

Thank you!


WHOA!!!!!!! Are you going to run this cable as a snake run from stage to sound room? If so that's totally the wrong cable! This is for mic and instrument and not for snake run. What you need is multi pair snake cable such as this http://www.fullcompass.com/product/251795.html  

And as for flying speakers, especially subs, if not by a certified rigger you're asking for huge liability issues. I think Brad can address this better.

Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Brad Weber on January 06, 2011, 09:10:29 am
Sidney Pilien wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 01:06

Danny Ryu wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 00:22

  http://www.cablewholesale.com/specs/microphone-cable/60m2-02 1th.htm

That is the microphone cable that I have bought.
Seems okay to me... So I will run this cable this weekend.

Could you tell me, what will be the reason not to fly sub?
There is no place to put the sub in the floor, thats why I come up with the flying idea.... will that be really serious problem to flying the sub?

I've seen some church flying the sub...(really high ceiling..)

Thank you!


WHOA!!!!!!! Are you going to run this cable as a snake run from stage to sound room? If so that's totally the wrong cable! This is for mic and instrument and not for snake run. What you need is multi pair snake cable such as this http://www.fullcompass.com/product/251795.html

I would argue that for installations the individual cables are often a better choice than snake cable.  If you have a number of inputs at one location, something like 8 mics on a single plate, then a multipair with an overall jacket for that location may make sense.  But there is no reason you could not run multiple individual runs and often some advantage in doing so.

What I don't think has been addressed is issues such as cable ratings.  If the cabling is all in conduit then no special rating may be required.  If you run the cabling above ceilings or in walls without conduit then it needs a certain rating.  If the above ceiling space is a plenum space then the cabling needs a different rating.  This applies whether running individual cables or a bundled snake cable.

Another though for installed systems and regardless of whether running snake or individual cables is to run a few extra cables to accommodate some expansion and provide redundancy.  One of the potential disadvantages to snake cables is that if you run an 8 pair snake for 8 connections and any single pair ever goes bad then you have to replace then entire snake.  So think about whether a few redundant runs might be worth the additional initial cost.

Sidney Pilien wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 01:06

And as for flying speakers, especially subs, if not by a certified rigger you're asking for huge liability issues. I think Brad can address this better.

I can address it as far as saying that I've been designing and installing audio systems professionally for over 25 years and was one class short of potentially qualifying for a dual major in Civil Engineering (my major was Acoustical Engineering), but I still wouldn't try to fly things myself.  I don't have the specific training, experience, liability coverage, etc. that are required to be a qualified rigger.  But I know people who do and strongly advise that you use someone like that.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on January 06, 2011, 11:03:13 am
Danny Ryu wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 00:22

    http://www.cablewholesale.com/specs/microphone-cable/60m2-02 1th.htm

That is the microphone cable that I have bought.
Seems okay to me... So I will run this cable this weekend.


Danny, you messed up. That is not the right cable, because it does not have a ground. If you use that cable you will be doing your church a serious diservice.

Quote:

Could you tell me, what will be the reason not to fly sub?
There is no place to put the sub in the floor, thats why I come up with the flying idea.... will that be really serious problem to flying the sub?


The main reason is most the subs at the price point you describe are not designed to be flown. Flying speakers that are not design to be is very dangerous, particularly when the speaker is a heavy sub.

Subs do not take that much room, I am sure you can find a space.


Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on January 06, 2011, 11:10:56 am
Sidney Pilien wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 00:45


Stay away from foil shielded cables for snake runs. They're ugly when exposed for termination at the mixer side and are not numbered. Jacketed numbered multi pair (14?) is what you'll need like maybe



Sidney, not sure what you are talking about here. Almost all install mic cable is a foil shield, including the IJIS you describe.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Danny Ryu on January 06, 2011, 11:38:28 am
I thought the shield cable, I could use that as ground.
If I use this as a microphone cable, It will not work? or you mean, is this bad cable?

Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Dick Rees on January 06, 2011, 11:50:19 am
Danny Ryu wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 11:38

I thought the shield cable, I could use that as ground.
If I use this as a microphone cable, It will not work? or you mean, is this bad cable?




Yes, you should be able to use the shield as the pin 1 ground connection.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on January 06, 2011, 12:43:44 pm
Danny Ryu wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 11:38

I thought the shield cable, I could use that as ground.
If I use this as a microphone cable, It will not work? or you mean, is this bad cable?




I looked closer at the cable and although you likely would be able to use the spiral shield as the ground, I would still recommend getting the correct cable. Besides the ground, it is also a rubberized jacket that makes it take up more room, and more difficult to pull. for the small cost I would get the right stuff. It will make the soldering go quicker as well.

It is not that that cable is bad, just not the best choice for your application.

Added: BTW- that same site has speaker cable for a good price-  http://www.cablewholesale.com/specs/bulk-speaker-cable/10g3- 291sf.htm
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Danny Ryu on January 06, 2011, 01:20:42 pm
Thanks Gary.

By the way, can you recommend any microphone cable for future reference?

We also already have snake cable which is pre-made.
Our mixer channel is 32 and I am not willing to plug the cable from the wall plate to snake cable.

What I will do was to run the cable from the wall plate to mixer.

The snake is already ran through the ceiling and we setup on the stage.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Gary Creely on January 06, 2011, 02:25:56 pm
Danny Ryu wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 13:20


By the way, can you recommend any microphone cable for future reference?



Do you mean a premade cable to go from the wall plate to the microphone?

If so rapco or whirlwind make good cables, and I prefer black nuetrick ends.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Brad Weber on January 06, 2011, 03:58:00 pm
Gary Creely wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 12:43

Danny Ryu wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 11:38

I thought the shield cable, I could use that as ground.
If I use this as a microphone cable, It will not work? or you mean, is this bad cable?




I looked closer at the cable and although you likely would be able to use the spiral shield as the ground, I would still recommend getting the correct cable. Besides the ground, it is also a rubberized jacket that makes it take up more room, and more difficult to pull. for the small cost I would get the right stuff. It will make the soldering go quicker as well.

It is not that that cable is bad, just not the best choice for your application.

Spiral or braided shields may actually be preferred over a foil and drain wire shield in terms of SCIN (Shield Current Induced Noise), although they are indeed typically more difficult to work with.  However, the spiral shield and rubberized jacket do indicate that the primary intended use for that cable is probably for portable cordage where flexibility is more critical.

Not necessarily the best option but probably the most common installation cables for microphone lines are West Penn 291 and Belden 9451.

My earlier comments still apply for the snake you've apparently run above the ceiling, it may need to be CL2/CL2R/CM/CMR/CL3/CL3R rated or if the ceiling space is used as a return air plenum then it may need to be CMP/CL2P rated.
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Brad Weber on January 06, 2011, 04:10:51 pm
I forgot to mention that it is all the little issues like the ones we're discussing, along with some of the major ones like flying things, that lead to people expressing caution regarding DIY installations.  I've seen facilities be denied a Certificate of Occupancy due to details such as the audio cabling used or even that the audio cabling was properly rated but not properly suspended (which required repulling and rewiring everything to allow it to be properly suspended).
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Sidney.Pilien on January 06, 2011, 11:00:59 pm
Brad Weber wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 09:10


I would argue that for installations the individual cables are often a better choice than snake cable.  If you have a number of inputs at one location, something like 8 mics on a single plate, then a multipair with an overall jacket for that location may make sense.  But there is no reason you could not run multiple individual runs and often some advantage in doing so.

What I don't think has been addressed is issues such as cable ratings.  If the cabling is all in conduit then no special rating may be required.  If you run the cabling above ceilings or in walls without conduit then it needs a certain rating.  If the above ceiling space is a plenum space then the cabling needs a different rating.  This applies whether running individual cables or a bundled snake cable.

Another though for installed systems and regardless of whether running snake or individual cables is to run a few extra cables to accommodate some expansion and provide redundancy.  One of the potential disadvantages to snake cables is that if you run an 8 pair snake for 8 connections and any single pair ever goes bad then you have to replace then entire snake.  So think about whether a few redundant runs might be worth the additional initial cost.




My main concern is cost and ease of installation. Danny mentioned they will be using Behringer MX32 so 32 channels but the 1000 ft spool will yield about only 8 channels (120 ft run?)so going w/ the snake the cost savings is huge.

And running a single snake cable is so much easier than say, 14 for wall plate, especially for long runs. What's the space just for 14 single runs?  Bunch up 14 or more and that's the space and more he will need.

As for redundancy, increasing the pairs I think would make more sense than adding extra runs, especially when dealing with limited space.

Gary Creely wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 11:10

Sidney Pilien wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 00:45


Stay away from foil shielded cables for snake runs. They're ugly when exposed for termination at the mixer side and are not numbered. Jacketed numbered multi pair (14?) is what you'll need like maybe



Sidney, not sure what you are talking about here. Almost all install mic cable is a foil shield, including the IJIS you describe.



I have foil shields on ours so when I stripped the outer jacket, each core pair is wrapped w/ foil strips (not jacketed) and obviously not numbered so I had to write down all the colors of each wire (also not numbered but some are now) and assign each to a channel. And on the mixer side, I ended up removing all the foil cause they were unravelling, exposing the cores.

Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Sidney.Pilien on January 06, 2011, 11:23:51 pm
Sidney Pilien wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 00:45

Quote:

And I ordered 7 x 2female microphone wall plate. I will use about 120ft cable for all the wall plate to mixer.

120ft is okay to use? Do I need to use any repeater?


120' is no problem for mic lines, no repeaters needed. What is important is that you use the proper wire such as this:   http://www.markertek.com/Cables/Bulk-Wire-Cable/Bulk-Audio-C able/West-Penn-Wire-Corp/291-BLACK.xhtml?WP-291-1000YW



Stay away from foil shielded cables for snake runs. They're ugly when exposed for termination at the mixer side and are not numbered. Jacketed numbered multi pair (14?) is what you'll need like maybe http://www.fullcompass.com/product/251795.html.

Hope this helps.
[/quote]

Okay Danny, I'm confused. What are you actually doing? The above post seems to say you want to run that wire from the wall plate to a 120 ft run but...

Danny Ryu wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 13:20

Thanks Gary.

By the way, can you recommend any microphone cable for future reference?

We also already have snake cable which is pre-made.
Our mixer channel is 32 and I am not willing to plug the cable from the wall plate to snake cable.

What I will do was to run the cable from the wall plate to mixer.

The snake is already ran through the ceiling and we setup on the stage.


You already have a snake but yet are you running extra cables to the wall plate for extra channels?
Title: Re: Speaker recommendation please!!
Post by: Danny Ryu on January 06, 2011, 11:47:10 pm
Sorry for making you guys confuse..

I do have 16ch snake cable. I am running the extra cable to the mixer for extra channels.

I mention that, I have 32ch and my snake cable is only 16ch. Thats why I am running more extra cables for extra channels.

I could bought snake cable instead of running so many wires but, Running a single wires is cheaper than buying a snake.

2ch Wall plate, and neutrik connector = $120
2C Microphone 1000ft cable = $85
2C Microphone 500ft cable = $45

Only reason I didn't want to buy snake cable is, I can't make wall plate on the stage. I still need to run a single cable from the snake box to wall plate.