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Title: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Chris Harwood on July 03, 2010, 08:44:42 pm
in the $5k - $7.5 range?
Used could be OK too.   And/or would used potentially be preferred in that price range?   or...move up to $10K?

Contemporary P & W...  thinking around 40 channels or so. Running avioms on the platform.  Medium sized church (500 seats)..

Probably stereo w/ center channel?  ... overall TOTAL system budget...$75K.. maybe?

Is my head on my shoulders with this thinking?

(add on info)

-New install
-volunteers running things for most part
-analog board probably preferred, (more channels) versus LS9 or similar

yeah... realize need twice the $75K, but that ought to get something rolling pretty decent as a start... right?

Speakers, cabling, 110 pwr, etc  first?  

We're talking Paducah KY, too.

Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Christy L Manoppo (okky) on July 03, 2010, 09:24:10 pm
on that budget, 5-7.5k would be in the Allen & Heath market. Probably a GL2800 will do good. And spend the money left on good compressors or dynamic processors of your choice.
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Brad Weber on July 03, 2010, 10:36:50 pm
If it is a new install in a new building, then it might be worth considering how a digital console and/or digital snake could affect the overall cost.  You may be able to offset greater equipment costs with potential savings in conduit, cabling, etc.

Aspects such as the general system form are difficult to address without additional information on the physical space and functional requirements.  If it is a new building and new system, you are into the scale where getting professionals in to address the acoustics and AVL would likely be beneficial, as would getting them involved while the space is being designed.
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Chris Harwood on July 03, 2010, 11:38:59 pm
Brad Weber wrote on Sun, 04 July 2010 03:36

If it is a new install in a new building, then it might be worth considering how a digital console and/or digital snake could affect the overall cost.  You may be able to offset greater equipment costs with potential savings in conduit, cabling, etc.

Aspects such as the general system form are difficult to address without additional information on the physical space and functional requirements.  If it is a new building and new system, you are into the scale where getting professionals in to address the acoustics and AVL would likely be beneficial, as would getting them involved while the space is being designed.

I think the digital route might be a mistake, with untrained volunteers starting out, although I know it can be learned.  Just the logical layout of a analog board would solve a lot of initial problems.

Getting a consultant in ...and yes it is a new building, etc... unfortunately isn't going to happen.  I've suggested that an amount, but haven't seemed to had much sucess in that area.  Plus, there's the availability in our location, which is limited (both in availability and the quality of work, imo).  I think the local installers would just get something like the Allen and Heath or a Soundcraft in that price range, some speakers, hang 'em up and run the cables... end of story.

The construction has past the point that cable runs thru the floor are no longer an option (no trench) and I think acoustic treatment will be addressed to "fix" after the fact.
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Darin Brunet on July 03, 2010, 11:44:02 pm
Without knowing what your specific needs are, it is hard to recommend a mixing desk. You said you would prefer an analog desk. I would rethink that.

When using volunteers, anyone who turns a knob whether on purpose or accidentally, changes the system for good or bad. Getting it back to "Starting Position" means you're cranking a lot of knobs. On a digital desk, you would simply recall a stored scene and Viola! you're back to your original settings.

Digital desks are not that intimidating to learn, although would have a learning curve to maximize its usefulness. Some are easier than others. Features vary from unit to unit but all are resettable to a preset scene. This is valuable to me.

As far as desks go, Crest Audio HP-Eight 48ch analog mixer is in your price range, also 2 PreSonus StudioLive 24.4.2 linked via FireWire. Each is in the USD6600 price range and would give you the input channels you desire. Each has its plusses and minuses but I would go the digital route if at all possible.

The Crest is a fine 48 input board with 8 subgroups, 10 Auxes, LR+M outputs and a 4-band EQ per channel strip. The StudioLive will also give you 48 mono inputs with 4 subgroups (the subgroups and main LR are disabled on the slave unit), LR+M outputs and a slew of EQ and Dynamics processing for all inputs, all 20 aux sends and main outs. This is just a general run down not an exhaustive feature list.

Going digital in your price range has other options as well. Forget DigiDesign, Midas, Cadac, DiGiCo they are not in your price range.

Tascam, Yamaha and some others have mixers in your price range. But don't discount the StudioLive for lack of motorized faders or input level recall, they are easy, easy, easy to use and sound great.

my 2 cents

Chris, is there anyone in your area who can do sound plots from your architectural drawings (EASE, SMAART)? What about the rest of the system... speakers, amps, cabling, mics???
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Chris Harwood on July 04, 2010, 01:21:32 am
Darin Brunet wrote on Sun, 04 July 2010 04:44



Chris, is there anyone in your area who can do sound plots from your architectural drawings (EASE, SMAART)? What about the rest of the system... speakers, amps, cabling, mics???


I don't think so.  And I personally am not discounting the benefits of some of your suggestions for the digital.

What we are really needing is someone who REALLY knows their stuff, come and make a convincing presentation and proceed from there.  However, I understand we can't put the chicken before the egg and get someone first, without hiring them.  That's one hurdle.  I have some credibility because I have a degree in music from Berklee and am pretty much the only person in the church that knows the differece between balanced and unbalanced lines and have played on the praise team the last 6 years and guitar for 45+ yrs,  and own a small studio.  But, for some, it's hard to comprehend why you just don't buy some equipment and plug it up, especially if someone "untrained" can push faders.

Our sanctuary is going to be all "open", guessing about 75 x75 holding about 4-500 seats with "two story" ceilings...vaulted. Basically a steel framework building, without any center support posts.  Cement slab.
Contemporary praise and worship.. the normal elec gtrs, synths and a handful of singers.  Currently no drummer (I use a looper with prerecorded Toontrack drums).  No stage volume...we all go direct currently.  Plan on the aviom and currently getting people used to IEM with a small monitor board now in our current setup, which we will leave (this location) as soon as the build is finished.
Figuring the 40 inputs for growth, as we can eat up about 25 now without trying too hard.  I understand about the digital snakes, cat5 stuff, am pretty much familiar with what's out there, but couldn't tell you if a new $7500 Allen and Heath is better than a MC7L or a used Yamaha analog or a used Soundcraft or a ???.  My upper end board experience is studio use ONLY, with Harrison and Sony/MCI desks...older stuff, from my old studio engineering days.

So basically, I might have some "pull" with decisions, potentially being a new sound team leader.  But that I will know in a week or two.
That said, I'm probably also the only person who has seen a board costing over $5k up close and actually used it.  

I originally threw out some figures of $200/seat, and that presented some serious sticker shock.  However, it IS desired to get some "good stuff" on the $75k budget I was alluding to.  Which actually will probably be some of the best in a 75 mile radius, to my knowledge (and I've looked around too).

sorry for the long post, but trying to give more details.
MUCH thanks in advance.  HUGELY appreciated.
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Chris Harwood on July 04, 2010, 01:29:52 am
One last thought.

I'm at a MINIMUM trying to get away from the "consumer" stuff and at least get into a mid-range or lower level "pro"...if that makes sense.

In other words, no Peavey sanctuary series board or the LX7II Soundcraft, the lower end power amps, Musician's friend JBL speakers.. hopefully I'm being clear.

Buy used from a "larger" church moving up to a Midas, Digi, or going digital, looking to ditch their large format analog was my potential interest.  But also looking to keep the board cost at no more than 10-20% of the total system, if that is on track.
We've got the small stuff like the wirless, other mics, mic cables and misc stuff like that.  Will just need "interconnecting" cables and the main components.  I've got a pile of old rack gear which will do for starters if going analog.
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Christy L Manoppo (okky) on July 04, 2010, 01:44:26 am
Quote:

What we are really needing is someone who REALLY knows their stuff, come and make a convincing presentation and proceed from there.


I think that you still need hire a consultant that can take in your specific needs and conditions. As this is important in the long term, so it kinda create a "balance" for your current, and also longterm "goal".

If you're still kinda stuck for doing it all yourself, then you need to consider:

1. conduits, which will run cable paths/signal paths. Ex, snakes, analog or digital? Another example about signal path, other than audio is,  you need to consider cable run for video, and even lighting.

2. Acoustics. Bad acoustics make good PA sounds horrible.

3. PA/mains. Spend your budget on these very carefully. A good mixer can sound bad if the PA is not up to the task.

These, IMO, are the most important design factors that you need to consider very,very carefully.

--edited-- add some factors
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Dick Rees on July 04, 2010, 11:12:26 am
All other considerations aside, I would consider very carefully just how many outputs you need and for what purposes.  If it's one or two mixes going out to different locations you can get along well with running through a line distro to control your various zones.  But if you need more than one or two specific mixes you'll want to have enought auxes or matrixes to put out what you need.  Either analog or digital can do this for you.  Digital probably is a bit more flexible with being able to assign outputs for different purposes, but an analog desk with 10/12 auxes and four or more matrixes will do just fine.

So this is the feature set which I would consider before anything else.  At this level almost any product with the feature set is going to be a fully functional, professional level desk.
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Chris Harwood on July 04, 2010, 12:41:17 pm
we will be running the FOH mix, a video mix and  another mix if needed for the hallways and classrooms.  So...a LCR mix in the sanctuary and two mono mixes....or hopefully stereo for the video.  That shouldn't be too demanding, I' think.

To repeat:
 Installation and acoustical treatment will be AFTER the fact.  I can be almost positive about that unless I can find a consultant that will convince the Pastors that they are needed, IN THE NEXT couple weeks and incorporate this install into the build. The slab is poured and the framing basically done and we are moving forward fast.

so therefore discussion about these topics is sorta off subject, but definately NOTED this is NOT the preferred and logical progression. I am not the final decision maker but in a position of giving advice TO BE CONSIDERED.

MAYBE my next question should be, who NEAR Paducah can maybe outline a system at a minimal charge (or close to free), as I will not be able to convince for funds upfront.  With a SOLD and convincing presentation, which I DO believe could actually happen (with the right installer/consultant), then things could proceed forward.
Also, does $50 -75K qualify even qualify for some "pro" advice, seeing that this isn't a "high end, top of the line" install?
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Chris Harwood on July 04, 2010, 12:45:37 pm
Dick Rees wrote on Sun, 04 July 2010 16:12

All other considerations aside, I would consider very carefully just how many outputs you need and for what purposes.  If it's one or two mixes going out to different locations you can get along well with running through a line distro to control your various zones.  But if you need more than one or two specific mixes you'll want to have enought auxes or matrixes to put out what you need.  Either analog or digital can do this for you.  Digital probably is a bit more flexible with being able to assign outputs for different purposes, but an analog desk with 10/12 auxes and four or more matrixes will do just fine.

So this is the feature set which I would consider before anything else.  At this level almost any product with the feature set is going to be a fully functional, professional level desk.


Yes, I'd think once we have more than $2500 in a board, anything will have what we need.
I was just interested in the next step up from a Mackie 32x8.  Working with some higher end equipment in studios, I believe that translates to live sound as well and you generally get what you pay for.  In other words, I think $7500 puts you in a different catagory, especially if considering used.  Shoot used M7CL are popping up all over the place at not much more.
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on July 05, 2010, 11:17:20 am
Chris Harwood wrote on Sun, 04 July 2010 01:44

in the $5k - $7.5 range?
Used could be OK too.   And/or would used potentially be preferred in that price range?   or...move up to $10K?

Contemporary P & W...  thinking around 40 channels or so. Running avioms on the platform.  Medium sized church (500 seats)..

Probably stereo w/ center channel?  ... overall TOTAL system budget...$75K.. maybe?

Is my head on my shoulders with this thinking?



If you have to stretch your budget to go digital now, it will pay for itself quickly down the road.

Since you mentioned Aviom, there's your first example of how digital saves money - compare the costs of interfacing Aviom via the digital expansion card versus doing so via analog. INclude the costs of 16 jumper cables for analog.

Your second point of savings due to digital will be the benefits of saved scenes and built-in full equalization and its benefits for sound quality and controlling feedback.

Since its a new install, the economics of digital snakes becomes yet another point of short term price/performance savings.

If you ever hope to use EFX on inputs, that becomes yet another point of savings. We don't do much of that but we do run a chorus EFX on the strings when most of them are vacation.

The idea that volunteers can't run a digital console is a myth so long as you have someone on staff who can set the board up for their use. We find that digital facilitates putting novices in the seat quickly since the subset of the controls that they need to work with are the ones that are real controls on the first layer. The stuff you have to go through menus to change is stuff they don't need to be worrying about.

If the room is excpected to be used for much more than just a Sunday morning service, then saved scenes and configuations is yet another point of major time and effort savings.

We just finished up a week of VBS in the sancturary, and there was no similarity at all between the optimum setup for VBS versus our Sunday morning worship setup. That didn't matter because I was able to do a heavy reconfig the console for VBS and a button press or two and we ran the Sunday AM config for reheasal on Wednesday night. A few more button presses and we were back setup for VBS on Thursday mornhing. On Friday afternoon I pressed a few more buttons we were good to go for Sunday.
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Frank DeWitt on July 05, 2010, 11:18:34 am
Chris Harwood wrote on Sun, 04 July 2010 12:41



To repeat:
 Installation and acoustical treatment will be AFTER the fact.  I can be almost positive about that unless I can find a consultant that will convince the Pastors that they are needed, IN THE NEXT couple weeks and incorporate this install into the build. The slab is poured and the framing basically done and we are moving forward fast.


Also, does $50 -75K qualify even qualify for some "pro" advice, seeing that this isn't a "high end, top of the line" install?


Design build building
install sound system
Occupy
Install acoustical treatment

In my opinion, you are heading for a train wreck.  The building may or may not be an acoustical nightmare. You may or may not be able to get good sound at any price.

Please search the forums.  Please go over to Churchsoundcheck.com and search the archives.

I would set up a meeting with the pastors for Wed this week and bring printouts of your search.

A very likely outcome is that you have a meeting, you hire a consultant, he models your room.  He tells you you have a big problem and if you will move this one wall and change this bump over here you will be OK.  That wall will move for free now.

We just bought a new console. I am very proud of it and would like to share but you have a much bigger problem

And yes, a $75K system qualifies for Pro advice.

BTW  The odds are that your architect has had 4 hrs of training in sound and acoustics.

I am not a consultant, and I have no horse in this race. I just want to see good church sound help reach the lost.

Frank
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Brad Weber on July 05, 2010, 12:03:45 pm
Chris Harwood wrote on Sun, 04 July 2010 12:41

Also, does $50 -75K qualify even qualify for some "pro" advice, seeing that this isn't a "high end, top of the line" install?

I don't know if this may help the church understand but I look at it this way, the approach of addressing acoustics and AVL after the rest of the building design and even after most of the building construction has never been a good approach, but was typically less of a problem with more traditional services and churches.  But times, along with people's goals and expectations, and as a result, the approach to the integration of acoustics, audio, video and lighting also needs to change.  It is not a matter of the dollar amount being spent but rather of the results no matter what dollar amount is involved.

Technology is now an integral part of daily life and that is often reflected in modern worship services.  Music and video are increasingly integral elements of services and many church's overall vision.  As audio, video and performance lighting become integral parts of worship, the supporting systems also become increasingly integral elements in the overall building design and construction.  It is only logical that this also means that the related technical systems need to be approached as a more integral part of the facilities.

Most people would not think of designing a new church with fireplaces for heating or with candles or oil lamps instead of lights or even without air conditioning and incorporate these elements into their facility planning from day one.  Yet those are all examples of where new technologies became an integral part of the physical facilities.  People need to start realizing that in many churches this same transition of the related physical systems becoming an integrated element of the building from day one is now relevant to audio, video and performance lighting as well.  They are becoming integral elements of the facility function and thus should be integral elements of its design.

So regardless of the dollar value involved, I believe that church's need consider whether audio, video and lighting, as well as good acoustics, are an integral part or an 'ad on' to their worship and to adopt an perspective regarding the physical implementation of the related technical systems that reflects that vision.

As an example of not doing this, there is a current discussion on another forum regarding someone trying to find a cost effective approach to integrating the cabling required to do what the church wants to do in a new church facility for which such provisions were not properly planned during the building design and construction.  This one issue alone is probably going to cost thousands of dollars either in additional AV equipment or in tearing out new walls, installing the necessary conduit and cabling and repairing the walls.  Can a church that "can't afford" professional help afford such issues?  And how many such instances like this does it take before having involved a qualified party in the initial design ends up representing a net savings rather than a cost?


On more specific issues, you mentioned the perceived limitations of the local audio providers.  If you really believe that no one from Memphis, Nashville or St. Louis would be interested and that you would be limited by the products and skill set offered by the local firms then that should probably be considered in the overall planning.  For example, if you are worried about the budget and the technical capabilities of the available contractors then you might want to reconsider things like a stereo plus center or LCR speaker system and maybe even the Aviom system.  It's not that these may not be appropriate or good potential solutions for the application, but if they are not properly designed, installed and setup then the church will likely not get enough of the potential benefits to justify them.  Perhaps you should be talking to or even involving the potential system contractors early on to make sure the direction being developed is viable and practical for those who may be involved.

I would generally say that what mixer model is used is down the list as far as audio system design priorities.  The actual order in which you do things may vary, for example you may get fairly well into the speaker system design to determine what conduit and power is required, however aspects such as infrastructure and the speaker system tend to have more impact on other aspects of the building while many actual products decisions can wait right up until the last minute.  Defining the overall goals and expectations for the system has to be the number one priority with converting that into a general system concept being next.  This concept should define all the major components and the interconnectivity required to support the defined goals and expectations in a general nature.  As an example, the mixing console itself could be a generic 'box' but this would be where you would start defining the inputs and outputs required for the mixing console so that an appropriate console could later be selected, the functionally required defining the equipment rather than the other way around.  After you have a concept, next would usually be establishing the required infrastructure; conduit, power, raceways, boxes, structural and heat loads, equipment space and locations, etc.  After that, typically the speaker system with consideration for the use and providing appropriate coverage, intelligibility, etc.
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Kent Thompson on July 05, 2010, 12:37:31 pm
FYI Took me 30 minutes the other day to explain our ilive T112/idr48 system to a volunteer this week. He is going to be running sound next week while I am traveling to Georgia. Mind you he is mostly going to be baby sitting and not changing stuff but, still it's easier than you think.

Note: I realize this desk is likely out of your price range. Just using it as an example.
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Chris Penny on July 05, 2010, 06:59:05 pm
Frank DeWitt wrote on Tue, 06 July 2010 01:18


Design build building
install sound system
Occupy
Install acoustical treatment

In my opinion, you are heading for a train wreck.


I so agree. The acoustic environment is an integral part of the sound system - not something separate.

Get in a consultant, get some modeling done, get the acoustic space and speakers system design correct - now. Then you can pretty much forget about it for 10-20 years, instead of having to go back and fix it again in 3.

Once you have sorted this design work out work out how much you have left and then decide on a console.
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: David Sharp on July 05, 2010, 08:10:45 pm
What console do they currently use? If it were me, I would pick a Mackie 32.4 & PROFESSIONAL CONSULTING/INSTALLATION over ANY digital console and a substandard install/design (provided you can get by with 32 inputs). You can upgrade the console down the road. You only get one shot at a NEW install. The last thing you want to do is spend $75k and receive complaints as to how miserable it sounds. That is the quickest way to close up the check book for future purchases.

My priorities would be:

1. A professional consultant
2. Speakers/Amps/System Controller & professional rigging
3. Quality cables/connectors
4. Hopefully a digital mixer (budget allowing). You can always use your current board as a submixer to a 24 channel digital mixer If you dont have the money left in the budget for a larger console.

Since you dont have a trench planned from the stage to FOH, I would expect CAT5 (digital) to be the way to go.

And before you jump on the Aviom train check out the Roland RSS M-48 system some say its better. I work for neither just like to compare apples to apples when its the church's dime.

The question I would be asking is do you know of any qualified consultants in a 400 mile radius of Paducah, KY.

Dave

Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Chris Harwood on July 06, 2010, 12:07:00 am
FANTASTIC!!

This is precisely the kind of advice I'm looking for (and that I basically agree with), but you've given me good ways to explain WHY.
This is perfect.  I will do some more searching as suggested and put some of these excellent points into some notes.  I believe I am actually having a special meeting with the Pastors this week.

Please pray for me that I will gain wisdom and that this will be ONLY for the advancement of the Kingdom.

God bless you guys!!
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on July 06, 2010, 07:21:12 am
David Sharp wrote on Tue, 06 July 2010 01:10


If it were me, I would pick a Mackie 32.4 & PROFESSIONAL CONSULTING/INSTALLATION over ANY digital console and a substandard install/design (provided you can get by with 32 inputs). You can upgrade the console down the road. You only get one shot at a NEW install. The last thing you want to do is spend $75k and receive complaints as to how miserable it sounds. That is the quickest way to close up the check book for future purchases.

My priorities would be:

1. A professional consultant
2. Speakers/Amps/System Controller & professional rigging
3. Quality cables/connectors
4. Hopefully a digital mixer (budget allowing). You can always use your current board as a submixer to a 24 channel digital mixer If you dont have the money left in the budget for a larger console.



I totally agree that a good professionally designed install is the most important thing. I'd rather mix with a Behringer 10-input mixer in a well-designed room than sacrifice the venue's ability to deliver quality media just to get a better console.

A few yeas back, a large, usually well-run church near here built a new 2,000 seat sanctuary. With some office space and a few classrooms, the total bill was about $9 million. They will be paying off the mortage for years.

AFAIK not one cent was spent on prefessional design for acoustics or AV. It was actually built with the media control including mixing board in a walled-off room tucked way under a balcony. Even though the church used video routinely, no provisions for installing screens or projectors were in the design or original build. They basically invited the sound contractor to bid on a building that was already mostly built.

God was merciful and the room is not a total disaster. The control room location was corrected before the first service but I'm sure that cost a pretty penny. There happened to be space for screens and speakers. But, everything was tacked on after the design was already steel and concrete and looks and works accordingly.  The room does have some pretty obvious acoustical flaws including at least one that is a generic problem with rooms of its general description that could have been addressed in the original design. It was a rookie mistake.

That's not what I would like to see my church do with God's money.
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Darin Brunet on July 06, 2010, 12:37:14 pm
David Sharp wrote on Mon, 05 July 2010 20:10

What console do they currently use? If it were me, I would pick a Mackie 32.4 & PROFESSIONAL CONSULTING/INSTALLATION over ANY digital console and a substandard install/design (provided you can get by with 32 inputs)...

My priorities would be:

1. A professional consultant
2. Speakers/Amps/System Controller & professional rigging
3. Quality cables/connectors
4. Hopefully a digital mixer (budget allowing). You can always use your current board as a submixer to a 24 channel digital mixer If you dont have the money left in the budget for a larger console.



David, I agree with you in principle, however, nothing says you can't have BOTH a digital console along with a quality engineered system. While $75,000 may not get you VDOSC or NEXO, there are many suitable loudspeaker systems available that will more-than-likely provide the necessary coverage and sound quality and still allow for a decent digital console. Keep in mind that almost all digital consoles have a plethora of EQ & dynamics processing built-in, substantially negating any outboard electronics, save a DSP or loudspeaker controller suited to the system. Not every HOW needs a system to play concert level music or the highest-end gear. I think sometimes "audio guys" just want new toys to play with. Every piece of equipment must be scrutinized and determined if it is really needed, of course keeping in mind future possibilities. I think the available funds should provide for a total system capable to meet their needs.


Chris,

RE: buying used gear for H.O.W.

Please think this through thoroughly before buying ANY used gear for your congregational needs. A proper warranty might be needed at any given time. There are warranty companies out there, SquareTrade for example, that serve the used gear market. You may well be the only person at your church who understands audio and getting units serviced if needed. But you never know how long you will be at any given location (the Lord may call you to service elsewhere). Who, then, will this responsibility fall to? Being a good steward of God's money doesn't mean simply buying the cheapest you can get or not considering future needs, including warranty service or replacement. I ALWAYS buy new gear with full manufacturers warranty and register the products to the church. Food for thought.
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Darin Brunet on July 06, 2010, 02:15:59 pm
Chris,

My priority #1 would be to get a professional to analyze the space you have, even if done by the engineering prints. You simply MUST get the acoustic space done correctly. I cannot stress this point enough to you and your "decision makers".

~No amount of EQ will make up for bad acoustics~

See my comments in the RTA thread to get an understanding. You said you own a small recording studio, you should know how important this truly is. If the acoustic space is not dealt with properly, you are simply wasting money.

Once the acoustic space is dealt with, select the loudspeaker system to give the required coverage at the required sound level and frequency response. It will be monumentally easier to get good sound. If flying is required, use a certified rigger.

Choose the best quality cabling you can, using the right type of cables for the application. Remember to run enough cabling. It is easier to do this once than two or three times to get it right. Consider your current needs and future needs.

How many performers are there on stage? Do I need a drum sub-mixer on stage or 3-7 mic lines back to FOH to mix the drum kit there? What about a podium or lectern, if any? Do I need a mid-side mic setup for recording the sermon or a Countryman headset, or BOTH, using an automixer? Is there a choir, do they need micing? If so, how? Will there be soloists that need a wireless handy or a headset? Point is, run enough cables. Since there is no trench from the stage to FOH, CAT5e or CAT6 based digital snake is probably the way to go. Some snakes are fiber based, and may prove easier to install and also have greater range, if needed. I have used the ProCo Catalyst and Momentum systems, both are very good quality. ProCo also has an IEM system, the mo8me that is very flexible.

Since you mentioned Avioms, have you considered the ProCo mo8me, Roland RSS M48's or the MyMix from Movek? I think as long as your musicians are comfortable with them, IEMs are the way to go. If they aren't, give them time to get used to them. They can feel a bit isolated if not mixed correctly. You may need to add an "audience/ambience" mic to mix into the IEMs.

Select the appropriate amplification for your needs, using high quality units. I, personally, like the Crown and QSC products. You do not need the "highest-end" stuff, just good reliability. I choose to remote mount my amps to keep speaker cable length to a minimum. I also choose to remote mount my wireless receivers and run balanced line back to FOH. Again, my preference.

Once this is all considered, make a selection of mixing desk to meet the required channels/busses/auxes, etc.

I think you should be able to meet your requirements with your stated budget. Good luck and God bless. May His Kingdom be increased through your efforts.
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Chris Harwood on July 07, 2010, 08:47:16 pm
Meeting Thursday night and you all have helped a lot.

I think I've got a solid handle and using some pics/ideas from db audio and video  (thx Ivan) I think help to visually illustrate my point.

I totally agree with the comments above, but was needing the "wording" how to explain it.  I KNOW acoustic treatment is mandatory (as done in my studio too), but this is new territory for the "decision makers".  But I DO believe they will understand.

I know God has given my knowledge in this area for a reason, and able to find answers in forums like this.  This is NOT coincidence...but I won't get into testimony!

I guess I should apologize for my silly first question  (which console??...), but that seems to interest the most at the church at this point, and I was getting out of order in the planning by asking.

God bless you guys!
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Don Sullivan on July 08, 2010, 12:59:14 pm
Please Please consider a digital console such as the Yamaha M7. Having been through the training exercise with very technically challenged volunteers, the issue of competency is not as large as you fear, and the ability to recall EQ / Compression and other settings, as well as LOCK certain settings is worth every penny, not to mention the savings on external gear like compressors, effects, etc.

Also, look at the head-worn microphones such as the Countryman, AT and others as your pastor primary mic. Get a real pro to evaluate your room and work with you, Call Tom George at 8th day sound in Ohio, or another competent system designer in your area.
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Chris Harwood on July 09, 2010, 12:29:58 pm
so the enemy tried to throw some "symptoms" my way and my throat was way too inflamed to meet with the Pastor Thurday night.  Once these "symptoms" go away, I will be scheduling a new meeting.

Meanwhile, it is giving me time to "relax" and absorb more of what info needs to be passed along.
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Chris Harwood on July 12, 2010, 12:30:13 am
Pastor offered to my wife this evening at a meeting (she's also his personal assistant), that he wants to make sure the treatments and speakers are done right.  Turns out, a neighboring church, just built, went thru some "fix it" acoustical treatments to "fix" their sanctuary which apparently turned out horrible after the build, negating to do what's needed DURING the build.  Also mentioned that the cement contractors made a mistake and a trench WILL be cut... at a heavily reduced price (but I'd pray for free).

Ya gotta love our God!

More to continue.  I KNOW this will be to the glory of Him!
Title: Re: how about some FOH console recommendations
Post by: Darin Brunet on July 12, 2010, 01:04:02 pm
Excellent! Chris, this is a wonderful thing! God certainly can open the eyes of people. I hope the Pastor and you can get the changes that are needed in the sanctuary system approved by the other decision makers. It would be a blessing to avoid the problems that other builds have gone through.

Get the acoustic space correct and the loudspeaker system will sound its best. I suggest that you select the best CD loudspeakers you can find/afford. Get them set up properly for the required coverage and minimize reflections. Centrally locate your subs (if used) either in a ground stack or flown, avoiding comb filtering and "power alley" the best you can. No system is perfect but you certainly should maximize your investment dollars by getting the best performance from each piece of equipment you purchase.