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Title: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Joe Long on May 06, 2009, 10:30:02 pm
Hows it goin,

So we're in the process of getting a drum shield, (much needed) and I was curious as to if we should mic them too?
Someone mentioned we should.
I was hesitant about it, especially with the plan they had....

Attached is a picture of what/where are drums are...the shield is just a norm shield I guess, 3 panels.
index.php/fa/394/0/

drums go in clear back centered

Anyway someone said we should just use a spare portiable mixer we have in the back and plug all the mics in there that way the drummer can control his own mics??? and then send one signal to the soundboard?

Thoughts on this?
Thanks?
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Ron Balsom on May 06, 2009, 11:29:10 pm
Welcome Jarron,  you have a typical drum question so you'll probably get allot of response.  It appears to be a small worship area, and unless there's a 'strong' comtemopary group, micing the drum set could be a minimal effort.  I speak only as a FOH tech. position. I'm not a musician either. I'm assuming the option of 'electronic drums' has been considered??  Most drummers who are new to the church worship experience, tend to just play what I call 'playing the full kit' all the time. There's that 'gentle touch' needed that varies with the worship experience.  You'll find additional threads here about drum shields with the ideal type of material to be used.  Personally, I would use a Conderser type of mic as an 'overhead' mic and use your judgment from there.  You can always add in a 'kick' and 'snare' as needed.  Perhaps consider a tall shield say 6' or more.  Keep us posted.  Blessings,  Ron Balsom  HPCC  Casper, Wyoming.  
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Joe Long on May 07, 2009, 12:17:16 am
I forgot to mention
our drummer loves to play(loud) Very Happy

and electric drums - no
thanks for the reply

still could use some input
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Justin Langman on May 07, 2009, 01:50:13 am
I love the sound of mic'd up drums, so I would be micing them up!

My philosophy I guess you would say, (small church as well), is to enclose the drums and then mic them, giving the FOH engineer control over the sound and volume, so they can actually 'mix' the drums.

Enclosing the drums also greatly lowers your stage volume, singers can hear themselves better, you can turn down the wedges, which again improves the house mix. So the benfits are many.

If you are short on mic lines to your FOH position, or channels on your board, then you will need to submix - plug all the drum mics into a mixer on stage, (or your booth), set up the drums mix there, and feed a mono, (or stereo if you want), drums mix back to your main board. You could also send selected channels direct to your main board, say kick + snare + mix if you like. Edit: You do NOT want to give the drummer control over this. You want to set the mix of the drums and then that's it for the day/service. (unless there's a problem you need to fix/adjust)

Looking at your stage, to get the most benefit, you will want some sort of absorption on the wall behind to drums, otherwise most of the sound will be reflected into the room anyway.

Hope this is helpful. Justin.
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Joe Long on May 07, 2009, 03:31:23 am
Hey Justin, thanks for the reply

So youre saying NOT to have that submix? only if needed?

and to not give control to the drummer, just for my own curiousity (mainly to also back up what i say) why shouldnt you give the drummer control

And yes i believe the FOH should be the one mixing the drums being as we hear it...

However, currently we dont have enough channels on our board (not cables) channels...so submixing is maybe what we would do...but would you lose quality?
this is still kinda hazy to me.
thanks to anyone who helps!
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Justin Langman on May 07, 2009, 03:57:06 am
Submix-ing is fine! We did that for a long time before we got a new board with more channels. Maybe you will lose a little bit of quality, but not enough to worry about.

You say you have enough cables, so you could submix your drum mics at FOH position. Just plug all your mics in, connect a suitable output on the submixer to a spare input on your main board, (or even a stereo in), get your drummer in to hit things, set gains and eqs, adjust the mix then you're about done.

You could get the drummer involved in setting up your drum mix and eqs. I just wouldn't want them having the ability to adjust the drum mix without knowing during a service. How can they have any idea what the mix sounds like in FOH from behind the drums in a cage?
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Joe Long on May 07, 2009, 04:03:28 am
Youre awesome.

So what i'm thinkin we could do...we have a snake

mic the drums accordingly, send them through the snake back to the FOH submixer...then run stereo out to a channel on the board?
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Joe Long on May 07, 2009, 04:03:10 am
Youre awesome.

So what i'm thinkin we could do...we have a snake

mic the drums accordingly, send them through the snake back to the FOH submixer...then run stereo out to a channel on the board?
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Dan Costello on May 07, 2009, 05:32:05 pm
Jarron Wright wrote on Thu, 07 May 2009 04:03

Youre awesome.

So what i'm thinkin we could do...we have a snake

mic the drums accordingly, send them through the snake back to the FOH submixer...then run stereo out to a channel on the board?


That'll work. I'll reiterate the directive to not give the drummer control over this.

-Dan.
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Joe Long on May 07, 2009, 07:33:34 pm
Now that I think about it...the "sub mixer" we have is a good portible mixer with built in EQs, so im not sure how that'll do...
They keep telling me that we should just run it on stage with the mics plugged in yada yada yada...
I'll have to get the exact details on the mixer im talking about

anyway the people who wanna do it say everyone has the drummer mixing his own drums at stage and then just sending the mono/stereo channel back through the snake into the board

also if we did run it at the FOH would we have to use another amp for that mixer?
sorry if im losing anyone..i'll get back on here and edit more infor tonight ifnot tomorrow for sure.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Aaron McQueen on May 07, 2009, 09:57:11 pm
Jarron Wright wrote on Thu, 07 May 2009 19:33

anyway the people who wanna do it say everyone has the drummer mixing his own drums at stage and then just sending the mono/stereo channel back through the snake into the board


They are wrong, this is not the way most people do it.

Quote:

also if we did run it at the FOH would we have to use another amp for that mixer?


Send the outputs of you sub mixer to the FOH mixer.  You shouldn't need another amp.  Amp go with speakers.
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Justin Langman on May 07, 2009, 10:18:11 pm
No amp required.

The purpose of submix-ing is simply to give you some more input channels. By mixing your drums seperately and then feeding only the mix to your main board, it only takes up one channel.

Let us know what mixer you have if you like. But any mixer should to the job. Does it have channel eq or were referring to some kind of small graphic eq on the outputs?
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Nathan Tisdale on May 08, 2009, 10:19:50 am
yes please don't give the option to your drummer to mix his own drums, I am drummer and I know I would not want to mix myself for the FOH because it would sound bad. because if it was up to me the kick would be vibrating the old people's skin off lol.
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: John Fiorello on May 08, 2009, 04:04:33 pm
Justin Langman wrote on Thu, 07 May 2009 01:50


Looking at your stage, to get the most benefit, you will want some sort of absorption on the wall behind to drums, otherwise most of the sound will be reflected into the room anyway.




Add the hard ceiling and the largest difference with the shield will be for the musicians standing just in front of it.

I'd start with the shield first and hear what you need.  And by shield, I would suggest an absorptive back as well.

Then if you need mics, you could get away with a snare/kick combo.  But that will totally depend on the sound you are still getting when the shield goes up.


2 cents, anyway.


JF
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Dan Costello on May 08, 2009, 04:28:09 pm
Jarron Wright wrote on Thu, 07 May 2009 19:33


anyway the people who wanna do it say everyone has the drummer mixing his own drums at stage and then just sending the mono/stereo channel back through the snake into the board



Yes, they are very wrong. Of all the people in the room, the drummer is probably in the worst position to be making mix changes.

-Dan.
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Tim Padrick on May 12, 2009, 12:00:40 am
If VDrums or a drummer who can play for the situation are out of the question, you need a shield with an absorbtive top.  Otherwise, the benefit will be much less than you think.  An absorbtive back wall would be good as well.  You can then mic them up.

If you submix, put the mixer someplace where it can be accessed easily by someone who can hear the kit as the congregation hears it.
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Jason Napper on May 12, 2009, 05:55:14 am
Had the same problem at my church. Our hall is extremely bad for reverb, and we have a loud drummer. Our stage is triangle shaped, with the back walls forming the point of the triangle. I made 2 square metal frames 2.4 x 2.4 metres that we mount perspex on to make the walls of the screen. I then have 2 pieces of plywood angled at 45 degrees inwards from the top to deflect the sound back down. We then used acoustic foam on the back wall and it made the world of difference. Even without the top sealed it made the sound so much more controllable during services. Just do the screen first, and then evaluate whether you need michrophones, because to do that and have a submixer is going to be quite a hassle.
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Jeff Ekstrand on May 12, 2009, 07:59:12 am
I don't think I can remember a single non-electric drum kit that I've seen mixed from the stage. In some cases, with smaller setups, I'll only take maybe 4 inputs from V-Drums, but we spend time sound-checking them, and the drummers are sworn to leave their settings under penalty of "wrath of audio engineers everywhere."

Anyway, in no acoustic setting have I ever seen a drum kit submixed at the stage. Not only is it not the normal way to do things, it's almost unheard of in any professional situation.

Sounds like your band wants to do things the way the pros do it... or at least "everyone" does it. Everyone recommending that you do it this way can send your church plenty of references and credentials backing why we know this to be the best practice.

No offense to drummers. Some of them are the best mixers I know when they sit behind a console at FOH or in a studio. But those drummers who are great mixers will also recognize that they are in no place to mix while behind their kit.
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Nathan Tisdale on May 12, 2009, 08:45:21 am
jeff hit it on the head
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Len Phillips on May 12, 2009, 09:11:17 am
Jason
You need to remember that the purpose of a drum shield is to restrict the spread of sound from the kit. So for the congregation to clearly hear the drums they must now be miced and mixed into FOH. Even if submixed this must be fed into main mixer otherwise you cannot mix the sound as a whole. Of course if your FOH system cannot accurately reproduce drums then you may be better off encouraging your drummer to play softer.
Len
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Eric Hermle on May 13, 2009, 01:02:40 am
Hello Jarron,
  Church drummer and some time church sound tech(did a 20 year run at FOH at previous church) here.  As a drummer, there's no way I want the responsibility of mixing of any kind(well, except my aviom settings... but thats pretty much set and forget)while I'm playing drums.  I'm too busy keeping steady time, watching my dynamics(playing softly when required, loud when required and some times not at all) and doing my best to put an emotional feel into the music.
 Hopefully, your PA system has a sub-woofer to give that kick drum it's presence.  At our church we currently use a Shure Beta 52 in the kick, SM57 on the snare(though its run at a pretty low level on the fader) and a pair of Rode NT5's as overheads.  I've ran sound for church events outside of the sanctuary with the same gear minus the SM57 and it sounds fine.
 My two cents are let the tech sub-mix it at FOH as mentioned, put up some plexi drum shields(with some absorptive material or panels on the lower third or so of the inside and maybe on the wall behind the kit) and buy the(or have him buy)drummer some light weight sticks.  My current fav's are Vic Firth AJ5 jazz sticks.  Light weight will carry less inertia which is especially important when making a fast move to a cymbal with out blasting everyone out.  I also use Vic's SD5 echo sticks.
 Hopefully you can also get the drummer set up with headphones for monitors.  If he's playing too loud, increase the drum kit level in his headphones and he might play softer thinking he's really loud(psycho-acoustics).

Much success to you.

Eric
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: DaveGetting on May 14, 2009, 11:51:21 am
I'll 2nd (or 3rd) what has been said.  Since you have room on the snake there's no reason why you shouldn't mix the drums from FOH.  We are in a situation where we are short on snake channels so we are 'mixing' our drums from the stage.  

Once it's set - we leave it alone and fix it between services or during practice.  But the drummer (and anyone else on stage) knows not to mess with it.  I don't know how anyone thinks they could accurately mix anything from the stage (outside of monitors).  The ideal would be to mix it from the booth - but that's not always feasible.  

If you are going to shield it - I'd definitely do some sound treatment on the back wall.  Remember plexiglass doesn't absorb sound Smile  
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Kent Thompson on May 14, 2009, 03:25:24 pm
Actually putting sound absorbing material on the lower part of the Plexiglas helps a lot with reflected sound where microphones are placed close to the Plexiglas.
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: DaveGetting on May 15, 2009, 09:52:27 am
Kent Thompson wrote on Thu, 14 May 2009 14:25

Actually putting sound absorbing material on the lower part of the Plexiglas helps a lot with reflected sound where microphones are placed close to the Plexiglas.



I agree.  Some I've talked to are of the belief a shield alone will help cure the loudness of the drums.  
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Karl P(eterson) on May 15, 2009, 02:29:04 pm
When that shield is 8 feet in front of heavy curtains it certainly is enough to make a drastic difference.

Smile

Karl P
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Brian Ehlers on May 15, 2009, 07:42:26 pm
I think in your situation simpler is better.  I suggest no shield and mic the kit with one overhead condenser and one on the kick (on the beater head).  You'll get a nice, natural mix with little effort.  I wouldn't consider a shield in a small church like that unless you're really having troubles with the kit coming through the vocal mics.

But no matter what you do, it all comes down to the guy holding the sticks.
Title: Re: Mic'n Drums with Shield?
Post by: Timothy C. Lee on January 26, 2011, 08:56:45 pm
It might help as well to know what size sound system you are working with...from the picture of the stage it looks like there are three small PA speakers maybe 12" and a horn?  I wouldn't worry about micing the kick if the system can't handle it.  The drums will be fighting the vocals on a small system.  Maybe just focus on getting the volume of the drums down?

Tim