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Church and H.O.W. Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound Archive => Topic started by: Shad Hall on July 28, 2008, 04:36:17 pm

Title: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 28, 2008, 04:36:17 pm
Hi,

I was able to take some pictures of the sanctuary yesterday for this thread.  This Fall, we are looking towards purchasing a new sound system and being the head of the [technical] media department, I am doing my homework now to be prepared for the day of purchase.

The room is about 30' x 50'.


index.php/fa/276/0/


Here is the system that I've compiled for your feedback.

============================================================ ===
1. Mixer Board: $1299
  Allen & Heath PA28
 
2. Cable Snake: $499
  Horizon Concert Series 150' 16-Channel/4-Return Snake

3. Voice Mic's: $159
  Shure SM58A

4. Instrument Mic's: $139
  Shure SM57A


5. Mic Hoodies: $10-25
  Color-coded foam Windscreens for mics.
 

Project Totals:
$1800 (Mixer, Snake)
$640 (SM58A Mics x4)
$420 (SM57A Mics x3)
$25 (Mic Hoodies)

--------------------
$2885 Sub Total
$222 Tax (7.75%)

--------------------
$3107 Grand Total
============================================================ ===


There is a poll on the front page of the site that asked people what they thought was the most important part of a sound system was and here are the results: http://www.prosoundweb.com/index.php/about/results .  I voted for the "Operators".

Do you think the aforementioned items are the answers to our situation?

Thank you,
Shad

Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 28, 2008, 04:38:02 pm
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Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 28, 2008, 04:39:35 pm
index.php/fa/278/0/
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: David Sumrall on July 28, 2008, 07:38:10 pm
Hey Shad,

First things on my list would be......

1. Move the plant in front of House left speaker.
2. Adjust the config some so you can get the house right and house left speakers to be on the same plain and to have the same angle hitting the audience vs one on the floor and one shooting from up on high.

Then I would see how the system performs for your needs.

What are the issues you are having that have you looking at upgrades??

More 57's and 58's are always good to have around. What mics do you have now??

I've never been a fan of the colored windscreens. We use colored electrical tape when we need to color code.

Looks like you have some room issues that will make life interesting too I bet.

Are planning to keep the current speakers and powered mixer as part of the system??

I that helps a bit.

Good luck with everything!

David
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Sean LaRussa on July 28, 2008, 08:03:50 pm
Shad, the prices you have listed seem to be a bit high.  Be a good steward and be sure to get prices from different places.  You should definitely be able to get better prices on that gear (for example, I know my favorite supplier, Full Compass, carries the SM58 mics for $99 - and possibly even lower if I call my rep there and get the "church" price).  Just to be clear, I do not work for Full Compass, but I have bought a LOT of gear there over the last few years (in the last year alone we had some major upgrades and spent over $80k with them) and they consistently have the best price and incredible service.  You can also call them and let them know what you have now and what you want to do and they can help you decide what would be best for your situation.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Guest on July 28, 2008, 08:20:41 pm
Other things I would consider:
Are you going to use your Mackie mixer amp as your amp? I don't believe the PA28 has an amplifier in it. What are you not happy with about your system now? David is right about getting the speakers on the same plain. What kind of cabinets are those? Some good cabinets can go a long way too! Sean is right as well the prices you have quoted can definitely be beat!
Good Luck
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 28, 2008, 08:39:31 pm
David Sumrall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 19:38

Hey Shad,

First things on my list would be......

1. Move the plant in front of House left speaker.


To make this comment, we have to agree that though there is poorly balanced speaker placement, it is where it is. Now, having that plant in front of the speaker on the left works as a cheat more or less to keep from being too much for the people in the first couple of rows and as you probably noticed from the picture with the sound board, I do not have individual master channel controls. Come to think of it, that plant probably will only absorb a small amount of volume, but it does work if that is hard to believe.
David Sumrall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 19:38


2. Adjust the config some so you can get the house right and house left speakers to be on the same plain and to have the same angle hitting the audience vs one on the floor and one shooting from up on high.

That's a good idea and I'm sure there are multiple reasons this has never been taken care of, but my guess would be b/c of the rolling ceilings and everything is plaster. It's a pretty old church. Ironically, the sound is fine without echoing or other sound issues, because of learning how to work with that room over time.  However, with that said, I will definitely began to consider speaker and speaker placement options for the new system.  

David Sumrall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 19:38


Then I would see how the system performs for your needs.

What are the issues you are having that have you looking at upgrades??



We have maxed out the 6/2 (mono/stereo) channels with mics and instruments and need more.  By having 28 mono (+ additional stereo) channels, will give us room to expand and not feel constricted.  


David Sumrall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 19:38


More 57's and 58's are always good to have around. What mics do you have now??

I've never been a fan of the colored windscreens. We use colored electrical tape when we need to color code.


I have used 58's at other churches, but the mics here are absolute crap. ProSound, RadioShack, etc. It looks like people who new nothing about music, found a deal and stuck their hands in the cook's soup. typical. heh heh

Yeah, black windscreens would look better, but if the singers hand is covering up the color-coded tape system, then I have to be dead-on in knowing which person has which mic. This is not to imply laziness, because even when I worked on a 16 channel board system at a previous church, I had every single knob setting memorized just in case they got changed during the week for some reason.  It simply would be better than squinting in a lowly lit room at night during a Christmas play. Personal preference maybe is all it boils down to. =)

David Sumrall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 19:38



Looks like you have some room issues that will make life interesting too I bet.



In the first picture, there is a small 2-windowed room off to the right of the stage.  This is a tiled baptismal that may still work, but hasn't been used or tested in nearly 20 years. Our church bought this building from another church back in the day before I was around.  Anyway, there are plans to knock out that room and extend the stage for better musician placement.
David Sumrall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 19:38



Are planning to keep the current speakers and powered mixer as part of the system??


The speakers are good, clean and still produce crisp balanced tones, so I haven't looked into any new ones. However, now that you bring it up, I will look into it. It would be nice to have less gaudy speakers that produce the same levels. The powered mixer will be closeted for out door events as needed.

David Sumrall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 19:38



I that helps a bit.

Good luck with everything!

David


Thank you,
Shad
Very Happy

Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 28, 2008, 08:42:07 pm
Sean LaRussa wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 20:03

Shad, the prices you have listed seem to be a bit high.  Be a good steward and be sure to get prices from different places.  You should definitely be able to get better prices on that gear (for example, I know my favorite supplier, Full Compass, carries the SM58 mics for $99 - and possibly even lower if I call my rep there and get the "church" price).  Just to be clear, I do not work for Full Compass, but I have bought a LOT of gear there over the last few years (in the last year alone we had some major upgrades and spent over $80k with them) and they consistently have the best price and incredible service.  You can also call them and let them know what you have now and what you want to do and they can help you decide what would be best for your situation.

Thanks! I'll check into that place. You're right, SM58 mic's are $99, but the SM58a's are $159 and from every review I read, it is the way for us to go.

I checked into that company you mentioned and they offer the same prices for the mixer and mics. As for the stage snake, a comparative model was the ProCo for $420 for the Horizon. However, I'll definitely keep in mind about checking into "church pricing" when dealing with a/v companies.

(Site book-marked.)
Peace,
Shad
Very Happy
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Dan Costello on July 28, 2008, 09:22:53 pm
Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 20:39

David Sumrall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 19:38


More 57's and 58's are always good to have around. What mics do you have now??

I've never been a fan of the colored windscreens. We use colored electrical tape when we need to color code.


Yeah, black windscreens would look better, but if the singers hand is covering up the color-coded tape system, then I have to be dead-on in knowing which person has which mic. This is not to imply laziness, because even when I worked on a 16 channel board system at a previous church, I had every single knob setting memorized just in case they got changed during the week for some reason.  It simply would be better than squinting in a lowly lit room at night during a Christmas play. Personal preference maybe is all it boils down to. =)



This is more of a general church-sound question and not picking on you, but is it really that big of a deal for church folks to put some masking tape on the board and label the channels "Vox L," "Vox C," "Vox R," etc or "Steve," "Joe," and "Wendy."? Everybody on the outside gets by w/o colored windscreens, why can't we?

And yes, my church has them, too. But one thing at a time.  Very Happy

-Dan.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 28, 2008, 11:51:25 pm
Thomas Lamb wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 20:20

Other things I would consider:
Are you going to use your Mackie mixer amp as your amp? I don't believe the PA28 has an amplifier in it. What are you not happy with about your system now? David is right about getting the speakers on the same plain. What kind of cabinets are those? Some good cabinets can go a long way too! Sean is right as well the prices you have quoted can definitely be beat!
Good Luck

Thanks for this particular. This thread may just prove that I have just enough knowledge to get myself into trouble.  Laughing

So I have the ability to mix sound, but evidently can learn a bit on the technical side. Very Happy

You're right, the PA28 does not have an amp in it, and I talked to someone today who suggested the Crown XTi 1000.  What are you thoughts on this one and what do I need to consider in researching a mixer amp?

As for your other question, the reason we are looking for a new system, is we've run out of inputs for the singers and instruments on a 6/2 (mono/stereo) channel board. =)

Thanks,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 28, 2008, 11:54:45 pm
Dan Costello wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 21:22

Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 20:39

David Sumrall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 19:38


More 57's and 58's are always good to have around. What mics do you have now??

I've never been a fan of the colored windscreens. We use colored electrical tape when we need to color code.


Yeah, black windscreens would look better, but if the singers hand is covering up the color-coded tape system, then I have to be dead-on in knowing which person has which mic. This is not to imply laziness, because even when I worked on a 16 channel board system at a previous church, I had every single knob setting memorized just in case they got changed during the week for some reason.  It simply would be better than squinting in a lowly lit room at night during a Christmas play. Personal preference maybe is all it boils down to. =)



This is more of a general church-sound question and not picking on you, but is it really that big of a deal for church folks to put some masking tape on the board and label the channels "Vox L," "Vox C," "Vox R," etc or "Steve," "Joe," and "Wendy."? Everybody on the outside gets by w/o colored windscreens, why can't we?

And yes, my church has them, too. But one thing at a time.  Very Happy

-Dan.


Laughing Okay, I'll let them know, "because Dan said so!". Very Happy  Alright, I'll consider saving the money. Now regarding the Shure SM58/a's, are windscreen even needed?

Thanks,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Mike Galica on July 29, 2008, 10:39:53 am
Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 21:54

Now regarding the Shure SM58/a's, are windscreen even needed?


Unless it's incredibly windy inside your church or your singers have particularly explosive consonants, I'd vote no.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Jeff Ekstrand on July 29, 2008, 01:54:48 pm
Big reply... ready... go!

I agree, while it's probably not priority 1, I think windscreens look weird when they're all different colors and they're distracting when used in church. Plus, they attenuate the mic a little differently. As previously stated, they're also only necessary in windy outdoor conditions, or for an extremely plosive singer. 99% of those issues can be remedied by proper EQ before the need for a windscreen.

Getting the speakers symmetric is also another good idea. It may sound okay now, but if you can make it sound better, and look better (in my opinion), then why not do it? The plant is funny, actually. If you're going to look into new speakers, you may look into something white in addition to the smaller option you were talking about. Small and unobtrusive often "sounds quieter" to the average listener.

If you want, we can all give you contact info for vendors who will get you 57's and 58's for less than your original quote. Saving 33% per mic is a pretty good savings, you could get 4 mics for every three with the previous prices.

Also, there really is no SM58"a" or SM75"a", the "A" on the Beta58A is noting that it is a hypercardioid microphone. If you look at the Beta87 series, the "A" model is hypercardioid, and the "C" version is regular cardioid. In the SM series of microphones, there are only cardioid versions. In a pinch, a little secret that is now more widely known than a few years ago is that the SM58 and SM57 are the same mics. Take the grill off the 58, and you have yourself a 57 without any protection. Take a look at some concert DVDs, especially Third Day's "Come Together" show, and their vocals, except for Mac Powel, are all on 57s... not a standard practice really, but apparently 8th Day Sound is doing something right if they've booked the last four Third Day tours. Lastly on this topic, there really are no other microphones in Shure's lineup that have both an "A" and "C" model beside the Beta87. If the SM58 were to have a letter, I would assume it would be "C" as it has a cardioid polar pattern.

The Crown xTi series are good amps. I will only "let you" buy it if you promise me you'll properly use the built-in DSP. Smile It's not worth buying an amp with built in processing if you're not going to use it. Again, being a good steward of the oney and gear, if you buy it and don't use it properly, I will "never forgive you." Smile If you don't think you need the DSP (which you could probably benefit from), then go another direction. But, like I just said, 99% of application could benefit from some form of DSP, so it's not a bad idea.

I think you're headed in a good direction, and I'm glad we can help. Keep up the good work, and don't be afraid to ask questions.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 29, 2008, 05:00:46 pm
Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 13:54

Big reply... ready... go!

I agree, while it's probably not priority 1, I think windscreens look weird when they're all different colors and they're distracting when used in church. Plus, they attenuate the mic a little differently. As previously stated, they're also only necessary in windy outdoor conditions, or for an extremely plosive singer. 99% of those issues can be remedied by proper EQ before the need for a windscreen.


Ya learn something new every day. =) From this day forth, I solemnly swear to never use multi-colored windscreens again, so help me God. Smile

Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 13:54



Getting the speakers symmetric is also another good idea. It may sound okay now, but if you can make it sound better, and look better (in my opinion), then why not do it? The plant is funny, actually. If you're going to look into new speakers, you may look into something white in addition to the smaller option you were talking about. Small and unobtrusive often "sounds quieter" to the average listener.



I have always found human psycology fascinating and this is a prime example that you mentioned. Will definitely keep this in mind.

Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 13:54



If you want, we can all give you contact info for vendors who will get you 57's and 58's for less than your original quote. Saving 33% per mic is a pretty good savings, you could get 4 mics for every three with the previous prices.

Also, there really is no SM58"a" or SM75"a", the "A" on the Beta58A is noting that it is a hypercardioid microphone. If you look at the Beta87 series, the "A" model is hypercardioid, and the "C" version is regular cardioid. In the SM series of microphones, there are only cardioid versions. In a pinch, a little secret that is now more widely known than a few years ago is that the SM58 and SM57 are the same mics. Take the grill off the 58, and you have yourself a 57 without any protection. Take a look at some concert DVDs, especially Third Day's "Come Together" show, and their vocals, except for Mac Powel, are all on 57s... not a standard practice really, but apparently 8th Day Sound is doing something right if they've booked the last four Third Day tours. Lastly on this topic, there really are no other microphones in Shure's lineup that have both an "A" and "C" model beside the Beta87. If the SM58 were to have a letter, I would assume it would be "C" as it has a cardioid polar pattern.



Hey, look I learned two things in one day! Very Happy  Laughing But I do have some questions regarding your comments about SM57 & 58's. You mentioned that they are the same mics, so I surfed over to Shure's web site and did a bit of research to learn some more detail.  I'm by no means trying to prove you wrong or be stubborn, but picking your brain so that I have all of the info necessary to make a competent purchasing decision in the end.

According to Shure, the SM57 uses an r57 cartridge whereas the SM58 uses an r59 cartridge.  Now, maybe these cartridges are interchangeable, but wouldn't they be producing/presenting sound differently? Here are two PDF's (1MB each) with potentially beneficial information: SM57 User Guide & SM58 User Guide.  They both have slightly different Polar Patterns, but I'm not sure how to read them. Can you explain to me in a few words how to read frequencies or point me to a good site?

I watched the "Come Together" video on YouTube and see that the lead singer is using the SM57.  Ever notice that church bands with amatuers, the singers tend to hold the mic where ever they want to? Smile  This has always been a struggle for me as a sound guy and always having to remind them to keep the mic at least a fist-length from their mouth if not closer. From some reviews that I read of the Beta 58A, I gathered that this mic would better pick up vocals when a singer let the mic drop to chest level and that was one my main reasons for considering this model over the SM58's.  The other reason is also from user reviews and how everyone commented on having a much warmer tone to it than the SM58.  Regardless of which way we end up going, I will confront the band (encouragingly and without being condescending) that they have no choice but to hold their mic properly if they want to ever play again. Laughing

Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 13:54



The Crown xTi series are good amps. I will only "let you" buy it if you promise me you'll properly use the built-in DSP. Smile It's not worth buying an amp with built in processing if you're not going to use it. Again, being a good steward of the oney and gear, if you buy it and don't use it properly, I will "never forgive you." Smile If you don't think you need the DSP (which you could probably benefit from), then go another direction. But, like I just said, 99% of application could benefit from some form of DSP, so it's not a bad idea.

I think you're headed in a good direction, and I'm glad we can help. Keep up the good work, and don't be afraid to ask questions.


I promise to learn how to properly use the built-in DSP and use it. Smile

These forums and the helpful/knowledgeable members are the greatest I've found onLine.

Thanks everyone,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Jeff Ekstrand on July 29, 2008, 06:06:06 pm
Quote:

According to Shure, the SM57 uses an r57 cartridge whereas the SM58 uses an r59 cartridge. Now, maybe these cartridges are interchangeable, but wouldn't they be producing/presenting sound differently? Here are two PDF's (1MB each) with potentially beneficial information: SM57 User Guide & SM58 User Guide. They both have slightly different Polar Patterns, but I'm not sure how to read them. Can you explain to me in a few words how to read frequencies or point me to a good site?

You raise an interesting point. I've never looked into the actual cartridge specs for these two models, I was simply going off of what the guys at Shure (and a few great engineers I know) have said. I had a conference attendee ask what he should do aout getting his church to approve a purchase of a Beta57 instead of a Beta58 because he knew it would sound better on a guitar amp, but they wouldn't do it. In the expert panel for that session, we had a guy who was on the design team for the Beta series mics, and he told the guy to order a Beta57 grill and put it on the mic, because they're the same element. As far as the SM series, there are small differences, but what you see in the diagrams on the site is primarily due to the grill differences. I'd have to look at the specs for those two cartridges to see exactly how different the two are.

Quote:

I have always found human psycology fascinating and this is a prime example that you mentioned. Will definitely keep this in mind.

I always like to do little social experiments using church congregations as my guinea pigs... I mean... wait... I would never experiment on a client... Smile Over the years I've made conscious decisions to mix in certain ways and see if I get an overwhelmingly different reaction. Sure, I'm a dork, but I've learned a thing or two just from toying with peoples' senses. And, really, what they don't know has never hurt them. I know how to avoid disaster, and I know how to mix in many ways without it sounding "bad." It's just a matter of figuring-out if I can put a finger on what makes each congregation tick. If they get too many complaints that it's too loud, but the church is only running 85dB, then I have fun coming in a experimenting until I minimize the complaints. Smile The speakers are the same thing as a drum kit or an electric guitar amp. People will simply see them on stage and the music will already seem louder to them, even if the amp is off or the drums are V-Drums. Fortunately it's becoming a little more mainstream and we don't get as many people telling us that we can't worship if there are drums because they're not a sacred instrument... like the piano, since the piano was obviously around during the life of Christ, and therefore is more worthy of worship music than a guitar or drums. Smile
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 29, 2008, 07:12:54 pm
Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 18:06

Quote:

According to Shure, the SM57 uses an r57 cartridge whereas the SM58 uses an r59 cartridge. Now, maybe these cartridges are interchangeable, but wouldn't they be producing/presenting sound differently? Here are two PDF's (1MB each) with potentially beneficial information: SM57 User Guide & SM58 User Guide. They both have slightly different Polar Patterns, but I'm not sure how to read them. Can you explain to me in a few words how to read frequencies or point me to a good site?

You raise an interesting point. I've never looked into the actual cartridge specs for these two models, I was simply going off of what the guys at Shure (and a few great engineers I know) have said. I had a conference attendee ask what he should do aout getting his church to approve a purchase of a Beta57 instead of a Beta58 because he knew it would sound better on a guitar amp, but they wouldn't do it. In the expert panel for that session, we had a guy who was on the design team for the Beta series mics, and he told the guy to order a Beta57 grill and put it on the mic, because they're the same element. As far as the SM series, there are small differences, but what you see in the diagrams on the site is primarily due to the grill differences. I'd have to look at the specs for those two cartridges to see exactly how different the two are.


Hmm, I would like to delve into this topic a bit more if you don't mind.  So you're saying that due to the shape and contour of the mic grills this is the reigning(?) factor in determing sound wave flow/direction?  So in essence, I could order a SM58 and use a SM57 grill to achieve a similar effect of the SM57? and again I say, "hmm...". Smile

Next question which may have a host of answers (and maybe I'm just getting way too technical): should I simple save money and order SM58's and use grills from the SM57's? Secondly, but more importantly, can you hear a difference in quality between the SM and Beta models?


Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 18:06

Fortunately it's becoming a little more mainstream and we don't get as many people telling us that we can't worship if there are drums because they're not a sacred instrument... like the piano, since the piano was obviously around during the life of Christ, and therefore is more worthy of worship music than a guitar or drums. Smile



roflol @ piano being around during the time of Christ. Please read all sarcasm into this: The difference between the two instruments is that drums play a "syncopated" beat and that is the same beat the African natives use to call up the evil spirits unlike the piano which follows a different time signature. LOL

Thanks,
Shad

P.s.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: David Sumrall on July 29, 2008, 07:38:17 pm
Hey Shad,

Great stuff!

Sounds like you've been looking forward to some upgrades for a while.

On the console having more room to grow is definitely a good thing.
Have you considered a little digital desk like a litle o1vcm or something. Not as many inputs as your plan but it would have more things built into the desk like reverb, compressors, and recall of settings etc. Only 12 mic pre's in those 16 channels. It would definitely be a step up from what you have in channel count now but might not be enough later on.

Do you think a larger booth space is going to be an issue?

On the snake, is 16 on the stage with 4 returns going to be enough long term?? Don't forget to plan where to locate the amp. If you put it on the stage or close then what you have could work. But if you put the amp in the booth then you would need a snake specifically for running power down it. My preference would be having the amp by the stage.

On the mics the 58's or Beta 58's with 57's should do you just fine. As others have said not a lot of need for extra winds screens on the 58's and Beta 58's inside. New mics would be a definite no mater how much money you end up getting.

Don't forget to plan for more mic cable if you are adding inputs on the stage.

On the speakers, though i do love the plant, like Jeff said some smaller boxes, maybe white if you could wall mount them or hang them on the ceiling etc. Some EV Zx3's would be much smaller and have plenty of output for your little room.

Maybe some nice wall mounts that could help you get the boxes up away from the people a little more on the one side and help to get a better coverage angle etc.

You could come back later and add some subs if you like!

Good luck!

David
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Jeff Ekstrand on July 29, 2008, 07:38:44 pm
Well, technically, yes, you could use a 57 grill on a 58. However, the grills on SM57 are not removable, and thus are not interchangeable. So, while the Beta series all have removable grills (I've never thought to try switching an 87 and a 58 grill to see what happens, never needed to) and the B57 and B58 are interchangeable in grills, the SMs are slightly different. I have, on occasion, used a 58 without it's grill like I use a 57 on guitar cabs, percussion, even a snare drum if I'm daring enough to put an unprotected mic in the line of fire for a blow from a stick.

I get my 57's and 58's for the same price, so I don't know that you'd save much money in the long run even if you did go that route. Plus, a 58 with it's grill on is nearly indestructible by normal human usage, whereas a 58 without its grill is infinitely more fragile. I would only do that in a pinch, right-tool-for-the-job, situation.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 29, 2008, 08:18:45 pm
David Sumrall wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 19:38

Hey Shad,

Great stuff!

Sounds like you've been looking forward to some upgrades for a while.

On the console having more room to grow is definitely a good thing.
Have you considered a little digital desk like a litle o1vcm or something. Not as many inputs as your plan but it would have more things built into the desk like reverb, compressors, and recall of settings etc. Only 12 mic pre's in those 16 channels. It would definitely be a step up from what you have in channel count now but might not be enough later on.

Do you think a larger booth space is going to be an issue?

On the snake, is 16 on the stage with 4 returns going to be enough long term?? Don't forget to plan where to locate the amp. If you put it on the stage or close then what you have could work. But if you put the amp in the booth then you would need a snake specifically for running power down it. My preference would be having the amp by the stage.



Oh Yes! I've wanted an upgrade for a long time. I've been involved with churches of "small church" mentality much of my life and I want to see some praise and worship dedication to God than us settling for the stupid theory of "well, they're just volunteers and we have to work with what we've got", which is pathetic, because you should be giving your all to God. </rant> Very Happy Now, I realize that the mechanics alone will not change the people, but great things are happening in our church as the people are finally at a place of allowing God to work in their lives. I'm getting my part ready. Smile

There is a ProCo StageMaster 16/4 TRS snake on the stage right now, so adding another 16/4 will work just fine.

As for the amp, I see what you mean and I haven't thought about it. I would love to keep of the equipment together, but I understand your side as well. * Currently undecided ... convince me * Smile

David Sumrall wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 19:38



On the mics the 58's or Beta 58's with 57's should do you just fine. As others have said not a lot of need for extra winds screens on the 58's and Beta 58's inside. New mics would be a definite no mater how much money you end up getting.

Don't forget to plan for more mic cable if you are adding inputs on the stage.



So new mic cables are a must? Suggest a brand, but more importantly, a model. I know that Monster Cables are popular, but there are many different models and thus also pricing scenarios.

David Sumrall wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 19:38



On the speakers, though i do love the plant, like Jeff said some smaller boxes, maybe white if you could wall mount them or hang them on the ceiling etc. Some EV Zx3's would be much smaller and have plenty of output for your little room.

Maybe some nice wall mounts that could help you get the boxes up away from the people a little more on the one side and help to get a better coverage angle etc.

You could come back later and add some subs if you like!

Good luck!

David

You like that plant too? It's imported plastic from China, I think. Laughing I wish it would die.

I like your idea about subs later on and will be back for that topic sometime.

Thanks for your time,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 29, 2008, 08:27:01 pm
David Sumrall wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 19:38



Do you think a larger booth space is going to be an issue?


Absolutely! Smile  Can you suggest a site I can find an assortment of desk options? I have only found two desks thus far fro $1k & 2k respectively, which is too much.  But I do want everything to be mounted for various reasons (that are probably obvious to you).  

Also, regarding surge protectors, we have one and being in Sacramento, CA, we really don't have a need for it as we don't have lightening storms or brown outs like LA. But being in the computer business, I know the importance of them. Do they get suggested to other newbies on this forum?

Peace,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Andy Peters on July 30, 2008, 02:30:19 am
Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 10:54

Also, there really is no SM58"a" or SM75"a", the "A" on the Beta58A is noting that it is a hypercardioid microphone. If you look at the Beta87 series, the "A" model is hypercardioid, and the "C" version is regular cardioid. In the SM series of microphones, there are only cardioid versions.

Lastly on this topic, there really are no other microphones in Shure's lineup that have both an "A" and "C" model beside the Beta87. If the SM58 were to have a letter, I would assume it would be "C" as it has a cardioid polar pattern.


Your statement about the "A" on the Beta58A is not correct.

First, the SM57 and SM58 are both standard cardioid mics.

Once upon a time (a dozen years ago or so), Shure introduced the original Beta series mics, including the Beta57 and the Beta58. The intent was to make supercardioid versions of the old standbys. Unfortunately, the new mics didn't sound all that great in general, and in particular the mics (whether the capsule or the transformer, I dunno) easily overloaded with even moderate-throated singers. While Shure didn't exactly admit the mics weren't any good, they were quietly discontinued. The Beta57A and Beta58A were introduced as the supercardioid versions of the old standbys. (The Beta52 kick-drum mic was also replaced by the Beta52A; that mic had its own issues.)

So, no, "A" does not mean "supercardioid." It simply means "Revision A." The moniker "Beta" indicates supercardioid.

Now, about the Beta87 mics. Yes, there was a supercardioid Beta87 mic as part of the original Beta series. Then with the refresh of the product line, the Beta87A was introduced. (I don't know how the Beta87 differs from the Beta87A as I've never heard one.)  Now some of Shure's Market Research showed that some Beta87A users who also used IEMs thought that the pattern was too narrow and "isolating," they introduced the Beta87C, and in this case, "C" does mean "cardioid."

And yes, there is a Shure SM87A. And because I told you that the "A" doesn't mean supercardioid, well, the SM87A is a supercardioid, unlike the rest of the SM line. It's basically a supercardioid version of the SM86 handheld vocal condenser.

Confused yet?

-a
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 30, 2008, 04:34:43 pm
Andy Peters wrote on Wed, 30 July 2008 02:30

Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 10:54

Also, there really is no SM58"a" or SM75"a", the "A" on the Beta58A is noting that it is a hypercardioid microphone. If you look at the Beta87 series, the "A" model is hypercardioid, and the "C" version is regular cardioid. In the SM series of microphones, there are only cardioid versions.

Lastly on this topic, there really are no other microphones in Shure's lineup that have both an "A" and "C" model beside the Beta87. If the SM58 were to have a letter, I would assume it would be "C" as it has a cardioid polar pattern.


Your statement about the "A" on the Beta58A is not correct.

First, the SM57 and SM58 are both standard cardioid mics.

Once upon a time (a dozen years ago or so), Shure introduced the original Beta series mics, including the Beta57 and the Beta58. The intent was to make supercardioid versions of the old standbys. Unfortunately, the new mics didn't sound all that great in general, and in particular the mics (whether the capsule or the transformer, I dunno) easily overloaded with even moderate-throated singers. While Shure didn't exactly admit the mics weren't any good, they were quietly discontinued. The Beta57A and Beta58A were introduced as the supercardioid versions of the old standbys. (The Beta52 kick-drum mic was also replaced by the Beta52A; that mic had its own issues.)

So, no, "A" does not mean "supercardioid." It simply means "Revision A." The moniker "Beta" indicates supercardioid.

Now, about the Beta87 mics. Yes, there was a supercardioid Beta87 mic as part of the original Beta series. Then with the refresh of the product line, the Beta87A was introduced. (I don't know how the Beta87 differs from the Beta87A as I've never heard one.)  Now some of Shure's Market Research showed that some Beta87A users who also used IEMs thought that the pattern was too narrow and "isolating," they introduced the Beta87C, and in this case, "C" does mean "cardioid."

And yes, there is a Shure SM87A. And because I told you that the "A" doesn't mean supercardioid, well, the SM87A is a supercardioid, unlike the rest of the SM line. It's basically a supercardioid version of the SM86 handheld vocal condenser.

Confused yet?

-a

The one aspect of these forums and my fellow members is that I can get everyone's feedback unlike talking to "John" on the phone and only getting one single piece of opinion/input and then having to determine the validity of his comments.

I think I follow you, though future questions will prove or disprove this. Smile

Have you personally used the SM58 and the Beta58A? What are your thoughts on them?  I'm reading every review I can find and thus far, the Beta58A's seem to be the preferred mic.

Thanks,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Kent Thompson on July 30, 2008, 05:29:41 pm
David kind of touched on this but, you do realize you have a 24 channel mixer and only a 16 channel snake. If your not going to have a 24 channel snake you might as well downsize your mixer to 16 channels.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 30, 2008, 06:14:38 pm
Kent Thompson wrote on Wed, 30 July 2008 17:29

David kind of touched on this but, you do realize you have a 24 channel mixer and only a 16 channel snake. If your not going to have a 24 channel snake you might as well downsize your mixer to 16 channels.

Shad Hall

(From post #126991 above)
"There is a ProCo StageMaster 16/4 TRS snake on the stage right now, so adding another 16/4 will work just fine."


=)


Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Andy Peters on July 30, 2008, 06:32:45 pm
Shad Hall wrote on Wed, 30 July 2008 13:34

Have you personally used the SM58 and the Beta58A? What are your thoughts on them?


Ummmm, yeah, seeing as how they are literally the two most popular and common professional handheld vocal mics.

Quote:

I'm reading every review I can find and thus far, the Beta58A's seem to be the preferred mic.


Given my druthers, I wouldn't use either of them. Both have the signature "presence peak" which can make some voices sound really pretty nasal, and the Beta sounds worse to me in that regard. The Beta58A is better in some situations where you need more gain-before-feedback.

Of course you'll ask, "what would you use instead?"

For some voices, the Shure Beta57A is excellent. I like the EV 767 and the Audix OM5 too. A friend of mine gets excellent results with the Sennheiser 935.  If your budget allows, you really can't beat the Beyerdynamic M69 and M88. Others have gotten excellent results from the Heil PR-35.

-a
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Justin Rygel on July 30, 2008, 07:14:39 pm
David Sumrall wrote on Wed, 30 July 2008 00:38

Have you considered a little digital desk like a litle o1vcm or something. Not as many inputs as your plan but it would have more things built into the desk like reverb, compressors, and recall of settings etc. Only 12 mic pre's in those 16 channels. It would definitely be a step up from what you have in channel count now but might not be enough later on.


Th O1V96 can be easily upgraded to 28 inputs in the future, and a used V2 is not a lot more that what was already budgeted for the A+H board.  A new VCM will run about $1800.  If you can convince yourself and your budget comittee that this is right for your church, I strongly recommend going digital, as you will instantly have A LOT more control of your sound, with better EQ, dynamics, and effects built in to the board.  If you either know how to use this stuff already or are willing to learn, you can really grow into the capabilities of an O1V96 (V2 or the current VCM), if this is not the case, then it is probably better to stick with a simpler board, like the A+H PA, or ZED series.

Also look at www.northernsound.net for good prices, I usually find they tend to be a bit lower than full compass.

I'm a big fan of QSC RMX amps for this type of application, they're a very good value for the money and are very reliable.

Any time anyone asks about snakes and cables, I have to take the chance to plug www.audiopile.net, very good prices on decent products and excellent service.

I've nevery liked Beta58s myself, I prefer Audix OM series mics (OM2, OM5, and OM7 depending on application).  Of course, I always have some SM58s around . . .

If you decide to upgrade speakers, consider going powered, you'll end up with a simpler, easier to use system.  I've been pretty impressed with the QSC HPR122i.  It looks like two would cover your room.  They are black, look very nice, and they are pole mountable, so you could put the one on the left side of the room on a pole and get it up higher.  Getting the speakers up above people's heads helps to even the coverage from front to back.  For that matter, you might be able to do that with your current speakers.  You say the speakers you have sound good, but what is your point of reference?  I am not saying that the sound is bad, I've never heard it, just that it is possible your room could sound much better.  You might be able to rent some nicer speakers to test this hypothesis, or go to another local church and see what their building sounds like.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 31, 2008, 03:38:07 pm
Justin Rygel wrote on Wed, 30 July 2008 19:14

David Sumrall wrote on Wed, 30 July 2008 00:38

Have you considered a little digital desk like a litle o1vcm or something. Not as many inputs as your plan but it would have more things built into the desk like reverb, compressors, and recall of settings etc. Only 12 mic pre's in those 16 channels. It would definitely be a step up from what you have in channel count now but might not be enough later on.


Th O1V96 can be easily upgraded to 28 inputs in the future, and a used V2 is not a lot more that what was already budgeted for the A+H board.  A new VCM will run about $1800.  If you can convince yourself and your budget comittee that this is right for your church, I strongly recommend going digital, as you will instantly have A LOT more control of your sound, with better EQ, dynamics, and effects built in to the board.  If you either know how to use this stuff already or are willing to learn, you can really grow into the capabilities of an O1V96 (V2 or the current VCM), if this is not the case, then it is probably better to stick with a simpler board, like the A+H PA, or ZED series.

Also look at www.northernsound.net for good prices, I usually find they tend to be a bit lower than full compass.

I'm a big fan of QSC RMX amps for this type of application, they're a very good value for the money and are very reliable.

Any time anyone asks about snakes and cables, I have to take the chance to plug www.audiopile.net, very good prices on decent products and excellent service.

I've nevery liked Beta58s myself, I prefer Audix OM series mics (OM2, OM5, and OM7 depending on application).  Of course, I always have some SM58s around . . .

If you decide to upgrade speakers, consider going powered, you'll end up with a simpler, easier to use system.  I've been pretty impressed with the QSC HPR122i.  It looks like two would cover your room.  They are black, look very nice, and they are pole mountable, so you could put the one on the left side of the room on a pole and get it up higher.  Getting the speakers up above people's heads helps to even the coverage from front to back.  For that matter, you might be able to do that with your current speakers.  You say the speakers you have sound good, but what is your point of reference?  I am not saying that the sound is bad, I've never heard it, just that it is possible your room could sound much better.  You might be able to rent some nicer speakers to test this hypothesis, or go to another local church and see what their building sounds like.



Thanks for the in depth post.

The digital mixer board you mentioned is a discontinued item? No matter, but I was surprised to see the digital window as a green-screen. It reminds me of hand-held video games from the early 90's. Smile Hey, but that's nothing against your suggestion. I'm just surprised that it's not full color screen. and why can't it be based on Windows' Technology so it would crash during a show? I should eMail MS and ask them why they  haven't got their hands into the music recording world yet. Razz Alright, I'll be serious again. Very Happy I really do not having any firm base/theory as why I should or should not go digital. I could throw out some ideas, but I know nothing of the digital world when it comes to mixer boards.  I would like to get some more feed back on this topic from others as well. I could say, our room is small or we have a small crowd of max 100 people, but neither one of those points necessarily have any weight over going digital or not. I would love to have more control over individual voices, which probably is possible with the digital mixer.

I realize that I'm just rambling here, but it will at least give you an idea of where we are.

If we're going to be bringing in the state-of-the-art system, then we might as well be talking $7k area and then should redo the entire interior design, knock out a wall behind the sound booth and extend the room.  Now, let me quickly say, I agree $7k is chump-change for church sound systems in many cases, but 7 becomes 10 which becomes 15 and with tax $20k for the additional room.  Very Happy  I was trying to keep everything around $3k range give-or-take $500. I am not bent on this figure, but am trying to stay near it if I hope to have success with my proposal.

I book-marked the sites you mentioned.

You suggested using powered speakers and how it would be "simpler"; can you explain how it would simplify things?

Thanks again for the reply,
Shad
Title: Reviewed: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 31, 2008, 03:58:40 pm
This post is an update of the original post in this thread as things have changed since talking with all of you.

(The room is about 30' x 50'.)

Here is the system that I've updated for your feedback.

============================================================ ===
1. Mixer Board: $1299
  Allen & Heath PA28

2. Amp: $499
  Crown XTi 1000
 
3. Cable Snake: $499
  Horizon Concert Series 150' 16-Channel/4-Return Snake

4. Voice Mic's: $159
  Shure SM58A

5. Instrument Mic's: $139
  Shure SM57A


Project Totals:
$2300 (Mixer, Amp, Snake)
$640 (SM58A Mics x4)
$420 (SM57A Mics x3)

--------------------
$3360 Sub Total
$222 Tax (7.75%)

--------------------
$3620 Grand Total
============================================================ ===


Notes:
Mixer:
I think the A&H PA28 is a great model selection for us and what we're trying to do. One of the great features about it, unlike its Yamaha (analog) competitor, is that IF a channel goes bad, only it has to be sent in rather than the entire board. I can't imagine shipping costs for the Yamaha board! *gasp*

Amp:
Everyone seems to agree that this is a good amp.

Snake:
It seems the Horizon snakes are the way to go at this time.

Mic's:
pending*

Place of purchasing has yet to be decided.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Gary Creely on July 31, 2008, 04:13:20 pm
Quote:



If we're going to be bringing in the state-of-the-art system, then we might as well be talking $7k area and then should redo the entire interior design, knock out a wall behind the sound booth and extend the room.  Now, let me quickly say, I agree $7k is chump-change for church sound systems in many cases, but 7 becomes 10 which becomes 15 and with tax $20k for the additional room.  Very Happy  I was trying to keep everything around $3k range give-or-take $500. I am not bent on this figure, but am trying to stay near it if I hope to have success with my proposal.

I book-marked the sites you mentioned.

You suggested using powered speakers and how it would be "simpler"; can you explain how it would simplify things?

Thanks again for the reply,
Shad


The 7k area would not be state of the art, it would be an economy job. In a room that size state of the art might be 80k. You do not need state of the art, but realize you are trying to feed the multitude on one boys lunch. A single JBL VP speaker would cost 3k. I only say that to say 7k is no pie in the sky number.

I have found volunteer/lay people are reluctant to ask for what they need when it comes to sound system needs. I would suggest putting together what it would take to do this right, and dream a little- if they say no than ask what the church can afford. Don't under estimate the possibilities.

As mentioned before you are a little high on the prices (good choice of snake), but you missed a lot of odds and ends that add up. -For instance mic cables.

I will answer you question about powered speakers- They are simpler because the are far more plug and play, and can get away better with-out processing.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 31, 2008, 04:17:02 pm
Hi,

This thread has been a great thread and I've learned a lot. Thank you everyone for your support, patience and input thus far. There has been many topics and sub topics chased and some of them are still pending, which I hope to mention in this post.

Okay, first of all, regarding microphones, there have been much input and many suggestions, so I've created a poll, narrow though it may be, for your input as to which mic would be the best all around mic for us.

Secondly, new mic cables were mentioned as a necessity.
Quote:

So new mic cables are a must? Suggest a brand, but more importantly, a model. I know that Monster Cables are popular, but there are many different models and thus also pricing scenarios.


As for speaker selections, there are a million out there. Justin brought up a good point inquiring what I was comparing the current house speakers to in order to determine their quality. Nothing. Smile And yes, there are going to be better speakers I think that we will be able to consider later, [but even as I make this statement, I don't agree with it, because everything should be bought at the same time].  I think I mentioned in an earlier post that the stage monitors were Community DnD12 150w 8ohm (150 RMS / 375 Program / 750 Peak). I like these speakers and wonder if we can just use these for the house speakers as well?

Thanks,
Shad

P.s. I've been reading the thread, "Need advice on overhauling old system" trying to learn as much as I can. Very Happy
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 31, 2008, 04:20:45 pm
Gary Creely wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 16:13

Quote:



If we're going to be bringing in the state-of-the-art system, then we might as well be talking $7k area and then should redo the entire interior design, knock out a wall behind the sound booth and extend the room.  Now, let me quickly say, I agree $7k is chump-change for church sound systems in many cases, but 7 becomes 10 which becomes 15 and with tax $20k for the additional room.  Very Happy  I was trying to keep everything around $3k range give-or-take $500. I am not bent on this figure, but am trying to stay near it if I hope to have success with my proposal.

I book-marked the sites you mentioned.

You suggested using powered speakers and how it would be "simpler"; can you explain how it would simplify things?

Thanks again for the reply,
Shad


The 7k area would not be state of the art, it would be an economy job. In a room that size state of the art might be 80k. You do not need state of the art, but realize you are trying to feed the multitude on one boys lunch. A single JBL VP speaker would cost 3k. I only say that to say 7k is no pie in the sky number.

I have found volunteer/lay people are reluctant to ask for what they need when it comes to sound system needs. I would suggest putting together what it would take to do this right, and dream a little- if they say no than ask what the church can afford. Don't under estimate the possibilities.

As mentioned before you are a little high on the prices (good choice of snake), but you missed a lot of odds and ends that add up. -For instance mic cables.

I will answer you question about powered speakers- They are simpler because the are far more plug and play, and can get away better with-out processing.


Heh heh We must've posted replies at the same time. Very Happy

Duely noted and will take all of that into consideration. Thanks

Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 31, 2008, 06:15:24 pm
slammin sam wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 17:23

Don't go with Monster.  Overpriced (at least from what I've heard- often).  

Regarding SM58 vs. SM57, I just ran into this article yesterday from Shure:

http://www.shurenotes.com/how28/article.htm

where shure engineers say:

What’s the real difference between an SM57 and an SM58?  There are actually a fair number of myths and misconceptions about what the difference really is.


The basic difference is the grille. The other parts -- the diaphragm and voice coil combination, the magnet, the transformer that’s in the handle, the handle itself, the closing ring that surrounds the cartridge – are identical.    



(see article for add'l comments).  I know earlier posters have already indicated as much, but thought, as long as I just read the article, I might as well pass it along to confirm...



That was a great article that cleared up a lot for me. The essence of the article that was really important to me (though it all was) was this:

Quote:

(Quote from this article on Shure's web site. ) That brings up another question that comes up all the time.  What’s the real difference between an SM57 and an SM58?  There are actually a fair number of myths and misconceptions about what the difference really is.

The basic difference is the grille. The other parts -- the diaphragm and voice coil combination, the magnet, the transformer that’s in the handle, the handle itself, the closing ring that surrounds the cartridge – are identical.    

In the SM58, the ball grille with the foam lining provides an extra degree of pop protection and wind protection.  The SM57 has a much more compact grille arrangement that doesn’t provide nearly as much protection against blast or wind.

The SM57 is often used as a drum mic - on snare drums or tom toms for instance - or an instrument mic for guitar amps.  Particularly around drum kits, the smaller head of the 57 allows it to fit in among the drums and other hardware that make it difficult to get a larger mic in the right position.   The smaller size lends itself to getting it into the right place, where the SM58 might interfere.  

From a sound quality standpoint, you wouldn’t expect much of a difference, but you don’t need the blast filter capability of the 58 for instrument miking, since you don’t have blasts of air coming off the drum heads or the guitar amps.  It’s more of a size and compactness issue that gives it a nod in that application.


Now, I'm heading back to their web site to search for an article comparing the SM58 to the Beta58A.

Thanks,
Shad

P.s. More great Shure articles here.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Justin Rygel on July 31, 2008, 09:29:38 pm
Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 20:38

The digital mixer board you mentioned is a discontinued item? I really do not having any firm base/theory as why I should or should not go digital. I could throw out some ideas, but I know nothing of the digital world when it comes to mixer boards.  I would like to get some more feed back on this topic from others as well. I could say, our room is small or we have a small crowd of max 100 people, but neither one of those points necessarily have any weight over going digital or not. I would love to have more control over individual voices, which probably is possible with the digital mixer.

I realize that I'm just rambling here, but it will at least give you an idea of where we are.

If we're going to be bringing in the state-of-the-art system, then we might as well be talking $7k area and then should redo the entire interior design, knock out a wall behind the sound booth and extend the room.  Now, let me quickly say, I agree $7k is chump-change for church sound systems in many cases, but 7 becomes 10 which becomes 15 and with tax $20k for the additional room.  Very Happy  I was trying to keep everything around $3k range give-or-take $500. I am not bent on this figure, but am trying to stay near it if I hope to have success with my proposal.

I book-marked the sites you mentioned.

You suggested using powered speakers and how it would be "simpler"; can you explain how it would simplify things?

Thanks again for the reply,
Shad


The O1V96V2 has been updated with the O1V96VCM, I don't think there are very many changes, but I have never used an O1V96VCM.  For a color screen, you'd be looking at the LS9, which starts at about $4k, the O1V96 has been around for a few years (I think it came out in 2004??), and the LS9 has only been available for about a year.

The decision to go digital or not has little to do with the audience and everything to do with the board operator(s).  You say you'd like to have more control over the voices, and a decent digital board will give you that, but that additional control (in the form of parametric EQs, compression, delay, and additional routing), can make things sound worse just as easily as it can make things sound better, its up to YOU to know how to use the additional control.

As someone else said, good powered speakers usually include properly sized amplifiers and properly applied processing.  Both of these things (especially processing) usually require a bit of knowledge to get right, so if there is a powered speaker available that will work for you (from looking at your pictures, there is), it will probably sound better than a passive speaker system, unless you bring in someone more knowledgable to set up the passive system.

I've never been impressed with Community's lower end offerings, and if DnD monitors sound good to your ears, you probably could get an improvement with any number of mid-range speakers:  QSC HPR series, JBL MRX or PRX, Yorkville NX, EP, or Unity series, EAW FR series.  If you don't need a lot of volume (and it sounds/looks like you don't), I've even been pretty happy with Community CPL46s.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on July 31, 2008, 10:44:56 pm
Justin Rygel wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 21:29

As someone else said, good powered speakers usually include properly sized amplifiers and properly applied processing.  Both of these things (especially processing) usually require a bit of knowledge to get right, so if there is a powered speaker available that will work for you (from looking at your pictures, there is), it will probably sound better than a passive speaker system, unless you bring in someone more knowledgable to set up the passive system.

I've never been impressed with Community's lower end offerings, and if DnD monitors sound good to your ears, you probably could get an improvement with any number of mid-range speakers:  QSC HPR series, JBL MRX or PRX, Yorkville NX, EP, or Unity series, EAW FR series.  If you don't need a lot of volume (and it sounds/looks like you don't), I've even been pretty happy with Community CPL46s.



*mumbles...* I just accidentally hit the "back" button and lost everything I just typed...so here I go again.  Shocked

It seems everyone is strongly suggesting that new powered speakers be purchased with the new sound system. Tell me if I'm right; I'm guessing that buying a new system without new speakers (in our situation) is like buying a new car and then putting the old tires on it, yes?  If that's the case, then I agree with you that everything should be bought at once.

Keep in mind that though I keep referencing prices from the same store, they are just for reference and comparison.

1. What's the difference between a 2-way and a 3-way speaker?
2. The JBL MRX 12" ($1299/pr) vs the 15" ($689/ea); how much difference is there sound/quality-wise?
3. QSC HPR 152i $1099/ea
4. JBL PRX 525 Dual 15" 2-way $1299/ea

Regarding speaker mounts, tripods seem to be popular, but as you can see, we are working with limited space. I don't want to hang them, because they could get in the way with the flat screen TV's (a thread on this is over on the H.O.W. A/V forums). I like the idea of mounting them on the side walls, but wonder about sound traveling the walls throughout the building. Thoughts?

Thanks,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Andy Peters on August 01, 2008, 03:02:52 am
Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 15:15

Now, I'm heading back to their web site to search for an article comparing the SM58 to the Beta58A.


I admire your initiative about doing your own research!

And the short answer is that the SM58 is a cardioid and the Beta58A is a supercardioid.

-a
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on August 01, 2008, 08:43:01 am
Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 21:17

Hi,

Okay, first of all, regarding microphones, there have been much input and many suggestions, so I've created a poll, narrow though it may be, for your input as to which mic would be the best all around mic for us.



Something may be broken. I tried to vote, got bounced to a page that said the page I wanted wasn't there, and now I see my vote didn't count.

At any rate, I've tried a fair number of of mics. When I inherited this system it had 5 SM57s with external pop filters, period. I think we have about 30 mics right now.

I think the most generally useful mics we have are the Audix OM5s and OM6s.I've used them for both vocalists and instruments. They are both hypercardioids and are lifesavers in situations where feedback, or picking up spill from other sources can be a problem. I find that while they have a shaped response, they don't have the sort of peaks and harshness or false crispness you find with other popular mics. The OM6 is a bit smoother, a bit more extended on the bottom, and has a bit broader pickup pattern.

We've been converting our vocalists over to Countryman E6s, which almost everybody seems to like, both on stage and in the congregation. Our two holdouts are the senior pastor and one older vocalist who likes to modulate her voice with her microphone.

I think the E6 would be a good choice for a preaching pastor because unlike lavs, it is far less likely to be affected by gesturing and walking around. I've worked with preachers who should be permanently banned from using a lav, because they create so much noise with their gestures, etc.

Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Justin Rygel on August 01, 2008, 12:00:58 pm
Shad Hall wrote on Fri, 01 August 2008 03:44

It seems everyone is strongly suggesting that new powered speakers be purchased with the new sound system. Tell me if I'm right; I'm guessing that buying a new system without new speakers (in our situation) is like buying a new car and then putting the old tires on it, yes?  If that's the case, then I agree with you that everything should be bought at once.

In very general terms, the elements that convert energy from electrical energy to acoustic energy (speakers), and vice verse (microphones), tend to be the weakest link in most sound systems.  This is because it is easier to preserve the integrity of the sound when processing a pure electric signal, which is what pretty much everything between the microphone and the speaker is doning, in one way or another, than it is to transform that energy from one form (electricity) to another (sound).  Also in general, speakers tend to govern because decent mics are cheaper than decent speakers, so a lot of lower end systems may have decent mics (SM58s or better), while still using pretty crappy speakers.  This being said, you probably need a better sound board in any case.  I am recommending a standard board + powered speakers for you because it is one of the easiest ways to have pretty good sound from the start.  Of the speakers you listed, all are pretty good, but the MRXs are passive.  A 2-way has two bandpasses (two parts of the speakers playing different frequencies), and a 3-way has three.  I tend to prefer the sound of 12 inch 2-way speakers, which is why I initially recommended the HPR122i, they are also smaller so they take up less visual space in the front of the church.  The 15" speakers tend to have more low end than the 12", but other than that they are comparable.  If you ever get a subwoofer, you will not really need the 15" woofer.  The dual 15" models are very large and cannot really be mounted up higher, ever.

Quote:

Regarding speaker mounts, tripods seem to be popular, but as you can see, we are working with limited space. I don't want to hang them, because they could get in the way with the flat screen TV's (a thread on this is over on the H.O.W. A/V forums). I like the idea of mounting them on the side walls, but wonder about sound traveling the walls throughout the building. Thoughts?


This is a sticky subject and very few people here will recommend doing this without professional assistance by a structural engineer.  I am a structural engineer, although not in the entertainment industry, and I wholeheartedly agree.  If anything you have hanging from the walls or ceilings falls down and hurts someone (speakers are heavy), the church would be liable if you hung the speakers up yourselves.  If you have a professional install/rigging company do it, they would be liable, and they are insured against such things.  That being said, you might want to plan your purchases with this in mind.  First of all, I wouldn't worry about sound traveling through the walls via the mount.  Second, some speakers have mounting points built in and are designed to be hung, and some don't.  Of the speakers discussed so far, only the QSC HPR series have mounting points.  In addition, the HP122i has a conical distribution, so it doesn't make any difference if you mount in vertically or horizontally, so you could put a pair of these up horizontally hung from the ceiling, and they might be clear of the sightlines.  In any case, you might want to think about trying to get speakers that have mounting points so that you could hire someone to hang them in the future without having to buy new speakers again.  Having the speakers up higher makes a huge difference in getting the sound even across the entire audience.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Bill McIntosh on August 01, 2008, 01:21:04 pm
2-way versus 3-way refers to the number of drivers in each speaker enclosure.  2-way has a high frequency and a low frequency driver, a 3-way adds a driver for the middle frequencies.

Don't worry too much about that, there are good 2-ways that sound better than some 3-ways.  Sound quality and power handling are more important.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 01, 2008, 04:45:38 pm
Andy Peters wrote on Fri, 01 August 2008 03:02

Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 15:15

Now, I'm heading back to their web site to search for an article comparing the SM58 to the Beta58A.


I admire your initiative about doing your own research!

And the short answer is that the SM58 is a cardioid and the Beta58A is a supercardioid.

-a

Thanks.

If a cardioid and a supercardioid are simply grills affecting wave length flow, then I'm guessing that a "hypercardioid" and "supercardioid" are one in the same, yes?
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 01, 2008, 05:05:30 pm
Arnold B. Krueger wrote on Fri, 01 August 2008 08:43

Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 21:17

Hi,

Okay, first of all, regarding microphones, there have been much input and many suggestions, so I've created a poll, narrow though it may be, for your input as to which mic would be the best all around mic for us.



Something may be broken. I tried to vote, got bounced to a page that said the page I wanted wasn't there, and now I see my vote didn't count.

At any rate, I've tried a fair number of of mics. When I inherited this system it had 5 SM57s with external pop filters, period. I think we have about 30 mics right now.

I think the most generally useful mics we have are the Audix OM5s and OM6s.I've used them for both vocalists and instruments. They are both hypercardioids and are lifesavers in situations where feedback, or picking up spill from other sources can be a problem. I find that while they have a shaped response, they don't have the sort of peaks and harshness or false crispness you find with other popular mics. The OM6 is a bit smoother, a bit more extended on the bottom, and has a bit broader pickup pattern.

We've been converting our vocalists over to Countryman E6s, which almost everybody seems to like, both on stage and in the congregation. Our two holdouts are the senior pastor and one older vocalist who likes to modulate her voice with her microphone.

I think the E6 would be a good choice for a preaching pastor because unlike lavs, it is far less likely to be affected by gesturing and walking around. I've worked with preachers who should be permanently banned from using a lav, because they create so much noise with their gestures, etc.



Please tell me we're not going to have to have a recount. Razz

I looked at the Audix OM5's and see that they are about the same price as the Shure Beta58A's. One thing I'm wondering is, could we go with the SM58's now and later test out a different brand/model? Obviously, no one wants to spend money twice, but the Shure mic structure is almost indestructible. I realize that I'm kind of playing the devil's advocate here, but the SM58's are also less than $100/ea.  

One other thing I read from those Shure articles mentioned in an earlier post is that the Beta58A's work really well with people who know how to hold a mic. This implies to me that the SM58 might be the way to go, because no matter how much you work with amateurs, you still find yourself reminding them to hold the mic closer. It drives me nuts, because makes my job that much more difficult.

Regarding lavaliere and ear-worn mics, we are using both. However, the older generation speakers feel more comfortable with the lapel mic and there have been a couple of times where movement disrupted the service so much, I had to give the speaker a mic on a boom stand.  Over time, I noticed that it is dependent upon the fabric as to how much noise is picked up.  I think some of this can be avoided though, if the sound person will "dress" the speaker with the lapel mic.  It should be that way anyway, but in a small church, I tend to just hand it to people who have used it before and that is my problem. Won't do that anymore. Smile

Peace,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 01, 2008, 05:46:52 pm
Justin Rygel wrote on Fri, 01 August 2008 12:00


Quote:

Regarding speaker mounts, tripods seem to be popular, but as you can see, we are working with limited space. I don't want to hang them, because they could get in the way with the flat screen TV's (a thread on this is over on the H.O.W. A/V forums). I like the idea of mounting them on the side walls, but wonder about sound traveling the walls throughout the building. Thoughts?


This is a sticky subject and very few people here will recommend doing this without professional assistance by a structural engineer.  I am a structural engineer, although not in the entertainment industry, and I wholeheartedly agree.  If anything you have hanging from the walls or ceilings falls down and hurts someone (speakers are heavy), the church would be liable if you hung the speakers up yourselves.  If you have a professional install/rigging company do it, they would be liable, and they are insured against such things.  That being said, you might want to plan your purchases with this in mind.  First of all, I wouldn't worry about sound traveling through the walls via the mount.  Second, some speakers have mounting points built in and are designed to be hung, and some don't.  Of the speakers discussed so far, only the QSC HPR series have mounting points.  In addition, the HP122i has a conical distribution, so it doesn't make any difference if you mount in vertically or horizontally, so you could put a pair of these up horizontally hung from the ceiling, and they might be clear of the sightlines.  In any case, you might want to think about trying to get speakers that have mounting points so that you could hire someone to hang them in the future without having to buy new speakers again.  Having the speakers up higher makes a huge difference in getting the sound even across the entire audience.



I checked out the QSC HPR122i speakers specifically on QSC's web site, downloaded the PDF about them and watched a couple videos on their staff, factory, how they are made and how they are tested for durability and also sound quality. They throw the amps and speakers off of the factory roof into the parking lot!!  Shocked (PDF's and videos can be found here.)

Well, I will add these to the shopping list. Once this thread comes to an end, I will post the finalized shopping list for one final critique from everybody.

Thanks,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Andy Peters on August 01, 2008, 07:02:07 pm
Shad Hall wrote on Fri, 01 August 2008 13:45

Andy Peters wrote on Fri, 01 August 2008 03:02

Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 15:15

Now, I'm heading back to their web site to search for an article comparing the SM58 to the Beta58A.


I admire your initiative about doing your own research!

And the short answer is that the SM58 is a cardioid and the Beta58A is a supercardioid.

-a

Thanks.

If a cardioid and a supercardioid are simply grills affecting wave length flow, then I'm guessing that a "hypercardioid" and "supercardioid" are one in the same, yes?


It's more than just the grille; there's a lot to capsule design.

Hypercardioid is, as the name suggests, "even more tighter" than a supercardioid. For example, the Audix OM7 and EV 967 are examples of hypercardioids. If your vocalist is not literally right on the mic, there is very little output.

-a
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Tom Young on August 02, 2008, 07:24:09 am
The grill has nothing to do with the pickup pattern of a microphone. Grills are used to protect the delicate cartridge (containing the diaphragm, voice coil, etc), reduce wind blasts and keep dust and crud out.

Directional microphones (cardioid, supercardioid, hypercardioid, shotgun, etc) employ porting (and damping) on the rear of the diaphragm that, through phase cancellation, alter the amount of acoustic energy from the rear and sides that adds coherently with the direct/on-axis (from the front) sound. On most microphones these ports are not visible from the outside.

You can google and find in-depth descriptions of the design and mechanisms that are used.

There is a brief article on directional microphones here on PSW:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/install/spotlight/cardioid/cardio idmics.shtml
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Brad Weber on August 02, 2008, 10:58:45 am
Shad,

Microphones and speakers are both very dependent upon the specific application.  What is a great choice for one situation may be a poor choice in another.  For example, if your pastor likes to move the mic around a lot, talking at different orientations to it, etc., then an omni pattern might be beneficial.  If you have a mic right in front of a stage monitor then a cardioid pattern might work better.  And different mics may work better with different vocalists. But I don't think you have really defined how the mics will be used.

For speakers characteristics such as the response, pattern and output may be the main considerations and I don't think those have even been mentioned.  The kind of levels you run during services, what instruments run through the system and so on are also factors that I do not think have been addressed.  I will differ from some of the others and say that this is likely a poor application for powered speakers since it is an installed system in an existing space and powered speakers would require getting power and new cabling to where the speakers are located.

I'm not sure where monitors entered the picture but I had been wondering why you need returns on the snake.  And speaking of the snake, how do you plan on running it from the stage to the mix position, why the 150' length and will having all the stage connectivity at one point work well for you (or will it end up with cables all over the stage and people tripping over them)?  There seems to keep being additional bits of information added but little discussion of what you do and your plans, which operantly include some fairly major changes to the room in the near future.

In fact, the discussion so far seems to have focused much more on specific individual products.  It might make more sense to first define your vision, expectations, desires, etc. and what you are trying to do.  From that information you can develop what the system needs to do to support that vision, including future growth.  Once you have that in place you can then start looking at the individual products that fit the system concept defined.  Starting with addressing products rather than the application is typically the tail wagging the dog.

For example, you might find that some acoustical treatments might be beneficial rather than trying to work around the room.  And discussing new speakers seems moot when we don't know your goals and new speakers appear to be well outside your budget.  Meanwhile, you may have some practical issues such as where to house a new amplifier and how to run the snakes to the stage to address that will use up more of your limited budget than you expected.
Title: Re: Reviewed: New Sound System
Post by: Dan Costello on August 02, 2008, 04:33:31 pm
Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 15:58


Mixer:
I think the A&H PA28 is a great model selection for us and what we're trying to do. One of the great features about it, unlike its Yamaha (analog) competitor, is that IF a channel goes bad, only it has to be sent in rather than the entire board. I can't imagine shipping costs for the Yamaha board! *gasp*



You sure about that? Generally, you don't get individual, replaceable channel modules until you spend around $30K+ for the console. There are some pictures in the PA28 manual that make it look like the electronics aren't all printed on the same circuit board, so maybe you could pull parts from the channel (e.g. the EQ section or pre-amp), but I'm certain it won't come out as one solid unit.

I'd double check that before banking on it as a "feature."

-Dan.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 02, 2008, 08:02:32 pm
Great replies everyone! I'll get back to them on Monday. Have a good weekend. Very Happy

Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 04, 2008, 03:59:06 pm
Hope you all had a good weekend. I got some needed R&R and am now back onLine.

In reading your replies again, I realized I might becoming across as a bull in a china shop. Smile  But proactive attitudes get things done, right? And luckily I have you all to keep me balanced. Thanks again for all of your input thus far.

Okay, to replying to your all's commentary...

Brad Weber wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 10:58

Shad,

Microphones and speakers are both very dependent upon the specific application.  What is a great choice for one situation may be a poor choice in another.  For example, if your pastor likes to move the mic around a lot, talking at different orientations to it, etc., then an omni pattern might be beneficial.  If you have a mic right in front of a stage monitor then a cardioid pattern might work better.  And different mics may work better with different vocalists. But I don't think you have really defined how the mics will be used.


This is a great point you brought up and I should have realized that I was going about everything backwards, especially, since I'm a web developer. I really did get all proactive about all of this since it's been a long time coming and just going about this in a Rambo fashion - running into the jungle with guns blazing! Laughing Cool

To make things simple, let's start over and go about this in a more efficient manner.  

Currently, we have 3 musicians (aside from sound man); worship leader who plays guitar, two backup singers.  However, things are changing and a new group is on their way, but this is what you have to take in faith, because we are believing and praying fervently for this to come to fruition.  So since we don't have definite musical positions to fill/consider for this thread, this is what I'm projecting and also leaving room for growth in the future of course.

Lead vocal (Audio-Technica - Omnidirectional Condenser Headworn Microphone Currently using this or similar model; not sure of exact model humber.)
3 x backup singers
2 x guitars (1 is wireless pack by Audio-Technica)
1 x bass guitar
1 x electric piano (stereo)
1 x mic'd konga set (4 mics?)*

* This past Friday, I was down at the church and for the fun of it, I took 4 vocal mics and mic'd the konga set (2 x bongos; 2 x kongas) and set the levels and rocked out. It sounds much better mic'd than simply acoustic and not just because of volume reasons.

So in that list, I count 10-12 channels. If/once a trap set is added, another 8-10 channels will be absorbed.

Brad Weber wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 10:58


For speakers characteristics such as the response, pattern and output may be the main considerations and I don't think those have even been mentioned.  The kind of levels you run during services, what instruments run through the system and so on are also factors that I do not think have been addressed.  I will differ from some of the others and say that this is likely a poor application for powered speakers since it is an installed system in an existing space and powered speakers would require getting power and new cabling to where the speakers are located.


I have heard that bass guitars should not be run directly into mixer boards; is this true? I know a lot of musicians want control over their own bass amps, but can't they use their amp as a monitor and pass the control onto the mixer? Suggestions?

Brad Weber wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 10:58


I'm not sure where monitors entered the picture but I had been wondering why you need returns on the snake.  And speaking of the snake, how do you plan on running it from the stage to the mix position, why the 150' length and will having all the stage connectivity at one point work well for you (or will it end up with cables all over the stage and people tripping over them)?  There seems to keep being additional bits of information added but little discussion of what you do and your plans, which operantly include some fairly major changes to the room in the near future.

I'm not sure I understand your comment asking why we need "returns" on the snake. I thought this was standard. You can get snakes without "returns"? Wouldn't you want them?

Yeah, 150' is a lot, but it was the same price as the 100' and if/when we knock out the nursery wall behind the sound booth, I thought we might still be able to use the same snake without having to buy more equipment. (From stage to mixer, it's 50'.) The snake goes through the floor, under the building and back up through the floor at the sound booth. Luckily Northern California is dry.

Brad Weber wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 10:58


In fact, the discussion so far seems to have focused much more on specific individual products.  It might make more sense to first define your vision, expectations, desires, etc. and what you are trying to do.  From that information you can develop what the system needs to do to support that vision, including future growth.  Once you have that in place you can then start looking at the individual products that fit the system concept defined.  Starting with addressing products rather than the application is typically the tail wagging the dog.

For example, you might find that some acoustical treatments might be beneficial rather than trying to work around the room.  And discussing new speakers seems moot when we don't know your goals and new speakers appear to be well outside your budget.  Meanwhile, you may have some practical issues such as where to house a new amplifier and how to run the snakes to the stage to address that will use up more of your limited budget than you expected.


A local music store here, mailed us an advertisement this past week offering to come out, assess our situation and suggest what we need and all of that for free.  Now, that's good and all, but now we're down to one person's opinion, which is the MAIN reason I joined these forums, so that I could get multiple angles of input and make a better decision in the end.  So unless you all encourage me another way, I think I will keep talking about all of this with you all until I feel that I have all of the needed knowledge and then call them and have them come out.  This way, I will be able to discuss the issue intelligently with them, which will be better for all involved.

Thanks for your patience,
Shad
Title: Re: Reviewed: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 04, 2008, 04:16:35 pm
Dan Costello wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 16:33

Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 15:58


Mixer:
I think the A&H PA28 is a great model selection for us and what we're trying to do. One of the great features about it, unlike its Yamaha (analog) competitor, is that IF a channel goes bad, only it has to be sent in rather than the entire board. I can't imagine shipping costs for the Yamaha board! *gasp*



You sure about that? Generally, you don't get individual, replaceable channel modules until you spend around $30K+ for the console. There are some pictures in the PA28 manual that make it look like the electronics aren't all printed on the same circuit board, so maybe you could pull parts from the channel (e.g. the EQ section or pre-amp), but I'm certain it won't come out as one solid unit.

I'd double check that before banking on it as a "feature."

-Dan.

Interesting that you should bring this up, because this was one of the main reasons for choosing this board. However, to clear up this issue, I just sent A&H an eMail inquiring about it.

Will get back to this once they reply.
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Mike Galica on August 04, 2008, 05:53:26 pm
Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 13:59

* This past Friday, I was down at the church and for the fun of it, I took 4 vocal mics and mic'd the konga set (2 x bongos; 2 x kongas) and set the levels and rocked out. It sounds much better mic'd than simply acoustic and not just because of volume reasons.

So in that list, I count 10-12 channels. If/once a trap set is added, another 8-10 channels will be absorbed.


There are a number of easier ways to mic hand drums and drum kits with fewer mics, especially if they're not caged or anything.  Individual micing will often lead to more control and a better sound, but it's also more money.  A single overhead (and kick for a trap kit) is often all I find myself needing, even when I'm wishing for more.

Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 13:59


I have heard that bass guitars should not be run directly into mixer boards; is this true? I know a lot of musicians want control over their own bass amps, but can't they use their amp as a monitor and pass the control onto the mixer? Suggestions?


If you mean a direct run from the bass to the board over 50', I can think of several reasons why that might be a bad idea.  If you're going into a DI or a short run somewhere, there'd be no problem whatsoever with either option.

Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 13:59

A local music store here, mailed us an advertisement this past week offering to come out, assess our situation and suggest what we need and all of that for free.  Now, that's good and all, but now we're down to one person's opinion, which is the MAIN reason I joined these forums, so that I could get multiple angles of input and make a better decision in the end.  So unless you all encourage me another way, I think I will keep talking about all of this with you all until I feel that I have all of the needed knowledge and then call them and have them come out.  This way, I will be able to discuss the issue intelligently with them, which will be better for all involved.


I'm always wary about anyone offering my anything for free, especially when its a local music store who is sending you an ad with the intent of recouping their time spent on you by getting you to buy whatever they might recommend.  If you're going to have someone look at your system it'll cost to get quality people.  Course I also have had a number of bad experiences with music store "experts" in the past, so I could easily be my normal jaded, cynical self.
Title: Re: Reviewed: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 04, 2008, 06:17:06 pm
Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 16:16

Dan Costello wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 16:33

Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 15:58


Mixer:
I think the A&H PA28 is a great model selection for us and what we're trying to do. One of the great features about it, unlike its Yamaha (analog) competitor, is that IF a channel goes bad, only it has to be sent in rather than the entire board. I can't imagine shipping costs for the Yamaha board! *gasp*



You sure about that? Generally, you don't get individual, replaceable channel modules until you spend around $30K+ for the console. There are some pictures in the PA28 manual that make it look like the electronics aren't all printed on the same circuit board, so maybe you could pull parts from the channel (e.g. the EQ section or pre-amp), but I'm certain it won't come out as one solid unit.

I'd double check that before banking on it as a "feature."

-Dan.

Interesting that you should bring this up, because this was one of the main reasons for choosing this board. However, to clear up this issue, I just sent A&H an eMail inquiring about it.

Will get back to this once they reply.
Shad

Allen & Heath's reply:
Quote:

Shad, ALL of our boards have this feature.

Also go to our website and check out the new ZED mixer line for Live
sound!

Very cool.

Michael Palmer
Allen & Heath National Sales Manager
American Music And Sound

Title: Re: Reviewed: New Sound System
Post by: Dan Costello on August 04, 2008, 09:06:37 pm
Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 18:17

Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 16:16

Dan Costello wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 16:33

Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 15:58


Mixer:
I think the A&H PA28 is a great model selection for us and what we're trying to do. One of the great features about it, unlike its Yamaha (analog) competitor, is that IF a channel goes bad, only it has to be sent in rather than the entire board. I can't imagine shipping costs for the Yamaha board! *gasp*



You sure about that? Generally, you don't get individual, replaceable channel modules until you spend around $30K+ for the console. There are some pictures in the PA28 manual that make it look like the electronics aren't all printed on the same circuit board, so maybe you could pull parts from the channel (e.g. the EQ section or pre-amp), but I'm certain it won't come out as one solid unit.

I'd double check that before banking on it as a "feature."

-Dan.

Interesting that you should bring this up, because this was one of the main reasons for choosing this board. However, to clear up this issue, I just sent A&H an eMail inquiring about it.

Will get back to this once they reply.
Shad

Allen & Heath's reply:
Quote:

Shad, ALL of our boards have this feature.

Also go to our website and check out the new ZED mixer line for Live
sound!

Very cool.

Michael Palmer
Allen & Heath National Sales Manager
American Music And Sound




Ok, cool. I found some better pictures, too, which clear things up a bit. I guess it's easier than I thought.

Inside of a MixWiz:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/nov04/images/allenheathwz3inside.l.jpg

-Dan.
Title: Re: Reviewed: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 05, 2008, 04:37:52 pm
Dan Costello wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 21:06

Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 18:17

Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 16:16

Dan Costello wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 16:33

Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 15:58


Mixer:
I think the A&H PA28 is a great model selection for us and what we're trying to do. One of the great features about it, unlike its Yamaha (analog) competitor, is that IF a channel goes bad, only it has to be sent in rather than the entire board. I can't imagine shipping costs for the Yamaha board! *gasp*



You sure about that? Generally, you don't get individual, replaceable channel modules until you spend around $30K+ for the console. There are some pictures in the PA28 manual that make it look like the electronics aren't all printed on the same circuit board, so maybe you could pull parts from the channel (e.g. the EQ section or pre-amp), but I'm certain it won't come out as one solid unit.

I'd double check that before banking on it as a "feature."

-Dan.

Interesting that you should bring this up, because this was one of the main reasons for choosing this board. However, to clear up this issue, I just sent A&H an eMail inquiring about it.

Will get back to this once they reply.
Shad

Allen & Heath's reply:
Quote:

Shad, ALL of our boards have this feature.

Also go to our website and check out the new ZED mixer line for Live
sound!

Very cool.

Michael Palmer
Allen & Heath National Sales Manager
American Music And Sound




Ok, cool. I found some better pictures, too, which clear things up a bit. I guess it's easier than I thought.

Inside of a MixWiz:[removed]

-Dan.

A second reply from A&H. (I guess my eMail went to two different people. Smile
Quote:

Shad,
      All Allen & Heath console are built with individual channel PCBs
(input and output) that may be removed singularly as needed. Access to
most of these PCBs is through the bottom of Allen & Heath consoles by
simply removing the bottom. In the case of the PA series, the top comes
off, which the user guide illustrates on page 34 of publication AP4956,
and the PCBs are removed by removing the pot knobs, the nuts which
fasten the pots to the face of the chassis (7/16") and the fader screws
(Torx T10) of the channel or channels that needs to be removed only.
Then the PCB pulls out thought the bottom of the top part of the
chassis. All PCBs on all Allen & Heath consoles are removed in this
manner. Also there are a couple of ribbon cables that must be unplugged
plus a ground buss bar that is screwed into all PCBs which must be
unscrewed. There is no soldering involved on any of the newer units.
Some of the older Allen & Heath consoles have a solid ground buss wire
that is soldered to each PCB that must be cut then resoldered, but the
PA series and all new consoles built in the past 3 years are the screw
on type of ground buss. It is a very good method and makes repair of
these units very easy.
      While it is possible to repair individual PCBs, it is usually
more cost effective to purchase new PCBs as they are generally less than
or right at the cost of the repair as repair costs are $75.00 per hour
plus parts. There is no flat rate for repairs. In the case of the PA-28,
retail for replacement channel PCBs is $88.36.
      I hope this answers your questions. If I can be of further
assistance, please feel free to contact me again.
Cheers,
David


David Mitchell
Service Technician
American Music and Sound
PH.#(866) 474-7711


Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Kent Thompson on August 05, 2008, 05:37:07 pm
Quote:

The snake goes through the floor, under the building and back up through the floor at the sound booth. Luckily Northern California is dry.

Are there no rats in California?
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 05, 2008, 06:25:00 pm
Kent Thompson wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 17:37

Quote:

The snake goes through the floor, under the building and back up through the floor at the sound booth. Luckily Northern California is dry.

Are there no rats in California?

Good point, but ironically, the church property has never had any problem with them. When the day comes that I have to crawl under there for the new installation, I will check it out, but the current stage snake has been under there for more than 10 years and still works fine.

Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Kent Thompson on August 06, 2008, 11:42:08 am
If your gonna run it like that then maybe a touring type snake would be better.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on August 07, 2008, 10:00:34 am
[quote title=Shad Hall wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 23:25][quote title=Kent Thompson wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 17:37]
Quote:

The snake goes through the floor, under the building and back up through the floor at the sound booth. Luckily Northern California is dry.

Are there no rats in California?
Quote

IME they are generally pretty well fed, and thus not motivated to chew on vinyl. Sad

Quote:


Good point, but ironically, the church property has never had any problem with them. When the day comes that I have to crawl under there for the new installation, I will check it out, but the current stage snake has been under there for more than 10 years and still works fine.



The absence of problems over 10 years probably means something.

Laying some PVC sewer pipe for a cables way be a good idea, down the road.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Jeff Ekstrand on August 07, 2008, 03:32:39 pm
Quote:

I can't imagine shipping costs for the Yamaha board! *gasp*


I've got a client who had a freak lightning accident with their M7CL, and one of the Willow Creek regional had a problem with their board freaking-out. In both instances, Yamaha sent a local guy (actually a buddy of mine in one case), and upon his diagnosis, just sent a replacement console until the broken one was fixed. Now, those were both under warranty, but they're the only two out of dozens of Yami-Digi installs that I've done that have had problems.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 13, 2008, 06:26:55 pm
[quote title=Arnold B. Krueger wrote on Thu, 07 August 2008 10:00][quote title=Shad Hall wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 23:25][quote title=Kent Thompson wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 17:37]
Quote:

The snake goes through the floor, under the building and back up through the floor at the sound booth. Luckily Northern California is dry.

Are there no rats in California?
Quote:



IME they are generally pretty well fed, and thus not motivated to chew on vinyl. Sad

Quote:


Good point, but ironically, the church property has never had any problem with them. When the day comes that I have to crawl under there for the new installation, I will check it out, but the current stage snake has been under there for more than 10 years and still works fine.



The absence of problems over 10 years probably means something.

Laying some PVC sewer pipe for a cables way be a good idea, down the road.


I'll look into your suggestion. I checked on Concert grade snakes and they were a couple of hundred dollars difference in price, which may make the PVC pipe cheaper.  However, it still might be cumbersome, since that pipe would have to have threaded ends into the floor to keep from rodents getting in the end of pipes and using it as a express transportation system.  It would be nice to go through the ceiling, but I don't think we can get through the walls vertically.

I'll have to give this some more thought.

Thanks,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 13, 2008, 06:30:03 pm
Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Thu, 07 August 2008 15:32

Quote:

I can't imagine shipping costs for the Yamaha board! *gasp*


I've got a client who had a freak lightning accident with their M7CL, and one of the Willow Creek regional had a problem with their board freaking-out. In both instances, Yamaha sent a local guy (actually a buddy of mine in one case), and upon his diagnosis, just sent a replacement console until the broken one was fixed. Now, those were both under warranty, but they're the only two out of dozens of Yami-Digi installs that I've done that have had problems.

That's good to know.  *noted*

Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 13, 2008, 06:58:59 pm
Hi again,

Well, I have some more questions, but probably need to do just a bit of research myself before asking them. Questions such as:

Analog vs Digital mixers
I know that digital mixers are more powerful with more diversity, but having never used one before, I guess I'm a bit timid when I think about "needing training". Another point regarding this is that I'm guessing/hoping/contemplating what the new music group will be like. I don't want to cut myself short, but don't want to find the system overkill.  How I see it, valid or not, is that even if the new group comes in and let's say is professional quality, we should still be able to do everything we need to on the analog board.  Would you agree?

Equalizers
I read that equalizers have to be set with EQ setting equipment - whatever those devices are called; is that in ref to the EQ's on the mixer board or an entire separate unit?

I'm sure there is more, but that's all I can think of at the moment.

Thanks again,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Kent Thompson on August 14, 2008, 01:07:28 pm
Wow analog vs digital well wont touch that but, to answer will the analog work. Well it may work but, you may limit yourself if you have purchased a smaller mixer. Channel count needs can jump dramatically when you start adding people to your praise team. You have to consider that at the start if you want an analog board to handle it. In other words buy a mixer with more channels than you need knowing that you may not use them now but later on you may. This has a domino effect because, you will need a snake that will also handle that channel count. If you don't plan on this now then when it happens. You will have to buy a new mixer and a new snake. If the larger worship team is very long term it may not be an issue.

A lot of people may not have this luxury(which I totally understand) but my preference is to see at least a half dozen unused channels on the board for things like guest performers and channel failures(we happen to use an older Mackie mixer that started giving us problems recently)  etc. If you don't have the extra channels then you will be doing a lot of cable runs during the service to set up for guest performers and the such.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 14, 2008, 01:36:00 pm
Kent Thompson wrote on Thu, 14 August 2008 13:07

Wow analog vs digital well wont touch that but, to answer will the analog work. Well it may work but, you may limit yourself if you have purchased a smaller mixer. Channel count needs can jump dramatically when you start adding people to your praise team. You have to consider that at the start if you want an analog board to handle it. In other words buy a mixer with more channels than you need knowing that you may not use them now but later on you may. This has a domino effect because, you will need a snake that will also handle that channel count. If you don't plan on this now then when it happens. You will have to buy a new mixer and a new snake. If the larger worship team is very long term it may not be an issue.

A lot of people may not have this luxury(which I totally understand) but my preference is to see at least a half dozen unused channels on the board for things like guest performers and channel failures(we happen to use an older Mackie mixer that started giving us problems recently)  etc. If you don't have the extra channels then you will be doing a lot of cable runs during the service to set up for guest performers and the such.

You're right and I mentioned a 28ch mixer board that I've been looking at and projected our needed channels in an earlier post taking all of that into consideration, so I think we should be fine.

Shad Hall

To make things simple, let's start over and go about this in a more efficient manner.

Currently, we have 3 musicians (aside from sound man); worship leader who plays guitar, two backup singers. However, things are changing and a new group is on their way, but this is what you have to take in faith, because we are believing and praying fervently for this to come to fruition. So since we don't have definite musical positions to fill/consider for this thread, this is what I'm projecting and also leaving room for growth in the future of course.

Lead vocal (Audio-Technica - Omnidirectional Condenser Headworn Microphone Currently using this or similar model; not sure of exact model humber.)
3 x backup singers
2 x guitars (1 is wireless pack by Audio-Technica)
1 x bass guitar
1 x electric piano (stereo)
1 x mic'd konga set (4 mics?)*

* This past Friday, I was down at the church and for the fun of it, I took 4 vocal mics and mic'd the konga set (2 x bongos; 2 x kongas) and set the levels and rocked out. It sounds much better mic'd than simply acoustic and not just because of volume reasons.

So in that list, I count 10-12 channels. If/once a trap set is added, another 8-10 channels will be absorbed.

Which is a total of 22 channels.

Hope my reply doesn't sound hostile.

Peace,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 14, 2008, 01:39:12 pm
Kent Thompson wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 17:37

Quote:

The snake goes through the floor, under the building and back up through the floor at the sound booth. Luckily Northern California is dry.

Are there no rats in California?

We have a half dozen or so feral cats in the neighborhood. Very Happy
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Doug Bishop on August 14, 2008, 03:02:49 pm
Perhaps you could call them "spit screens" or "lipstick screens" and they would make more sense.

BTW you should be able to pick up SM57 and SM58 mics online for $99.99 with free shipping just about anywhere....less if you find a source that doesn't advertise their price online.  This is the lowest that Shure will allow vendors to advertise them for but you can probably do better.

Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Doug Bishop on August 14, 2008, 03:18:48 pm
Are you referring to the Beta57A and Beta58A mics?  Shure doesn't show an SM58A or SM57A on their site.

The beta's are a supercardoid mics and probably more than you really need considering the pics you have posted of your facility.  I would stick with the tried and true work horses onf the industry...SM58 for vocals and SM57 for instruments or amp cabinets that need to be mic'd.

There is a reason that these two have been around for so long and are still preferred by many professionals.

BTW...in case there is any thought of buying the switched models....don't!  You never want to give your people on stage the ability to cut themselves off....and turn the congregation's heads towards you.  Smile



Best to you
The Other Doug
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Doug Bishop on August 14, 2008, 03:33:13 pm
While you're at it....pick up a large spool of mic cable and some quality solder type switchcraft XLR connectors and build your own mic cables.

Be sure to test them with an ohm meter both for a good connection and to be sure that you don't have a short.

I'm having so much fun making cables at our church I just hunt for places that need an upgrade.  Premade cables are never the right length and often come with non-soldered spade terminations inside the connector.

Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Doug Bishop on August 14, 2008, 03:38:33 pm
Why then does Shure's web site not show either an SM57A or SM58A?

http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/WiredMicrophones/us_p ro_sm_overview_content

unless they were and are no more which means that Shad will have a difficult time finding them.

Hey I've been wrong before....
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Doug Bishop on August 14, 2008, 03:45:16 pm
Syncopated?  Tsk tsk!  I recall Larry Norman once commenting in one of his long drawn out between numbers talks (that I so much miss) something like... "What's that word that that guys who says rock and roll is of the devil uses?  Yeah...syncopation....so we're going to syncopate it so you'll all know which side of the pearly gates you're on."

Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Doug Bishop on August 14, 2008, 03:52:29 pm
Oh contrare'.  The SM57 grilles are removable.  We had one left out in our gym a couple of years ago and someone found a way...of course there was no way to put it back on since removing it apparently included a bit of Roger Daltry mic swinging and also hitting the floor with a good deal of force.

I eventually purchased a replacement cartridge and fixed it up good as new.  Funny thing is that it came with 2 stickers with it.  One was for an SM56 which apparently is no loger sold.


Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 14, 2008, 03:56:58 pm
Doug Bishop wrote on Thu, 14 August 2008 15:18

Are you referring to the Beta57A and Beta58A mics?  Shure doesn't show an SM58A or SM57A on their site.

The beta's are a supercardoid mics and probably more than you really need considering the pics you have posted of your facility.  I would stick with the tried and true work horses onf the industry...SM58 for vocals and SM57 for instruments or amp cabinets that need to be mic'd.

There is a reason that these two have been around for so long and are still preferred by many professionals.

BTW...in case there is any thought of buying the switched models....don't!  You never want to give your people on stage the ability to cut themselves off....and turn the congregation's heads towards you.  Smile



Best to you
The Other Doug


Yes, I was referring to the "beta" mics, but at the time of the first post when I mentioned it, I hadn't learned that yet, but was corrected a few posts later. Long threads such as this one can get a bit crazy. Razz

After all of the research I've been doing (with the help of everyone's input), I agree with you that I believe the tried & true tested SM57 and SM58's is what will suit us best for this venue.

And I totally agree with you about the mic "switch"! Limit control as much as possible, not to be totalitarian, but to have the best presentation in this case. I have had plenty of congregational members "look back" at me when it wasn't even my fault. Very Happy Ah, the joys of working with humans. I miss Mars. Very Happy

Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Doug Bishop on August 14, 2008, 03:58:16 pm
You would think so but everything doesn't run through the snake.  CD, DVD, Effects and any possible wireless additions would all plug in directly to got board.  We use a portable cart with 8 wireless systems that we transport to up to 4 areas of the building as well as take into a public school for a virtue based kids program.  That's 8 more channels we don't need to snake...

Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 14, 2008, 04:03:00 pm
Doug Bishop wrote on Thu, 14 August 2008 15:33

While you're at it....pick up a large spool of mic cable and some quality solder type switchcraft XLR connectors and build your own mic cables.

Be sure to test them with an ohm meter both for a good connection and to be sure that you don't have a short.

I'm having so much fun making cables at our church I just hunt for places that need an upgrade.  Pre-made cables are never the right length and often come with non-soldered spade terminations inside the connector.



I see you're a "purist" and I can appreciate that as I've taken the same approach in web development by coding sites with raw code instead of using software to build them.  There are pro's/con's to both worlds I s'pose. Very Happy

With that said, I'm not against the idea of building mic cables, but do you know actual brands/models for quality pre-made mics cables that you would suggest? This way, I can compare them to your idea (price-wise) and also, be able to have a reference point.

Thanks,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Doug Bishop on August 14, 2008, 04:17:51 pm
We just added a set of 4 congas and experimented with different mic techniques.  what seems to work best is to use 2 short booms and a pair of SM57's.  One almost touching the floor pointing straight up between the two tall congas and the other similarly placed for the smaller ones...except not on the floor of course.  The 57's don't pick up a lot of other stage noise and we get very good control of the levels.  Save yourself a couple of valuable channels.

Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 14, 2008, 04:24:29 pm
Doug Bishop wrote on Thu, 14 August 2008 16:17

We just added a set of 4 congas and experimented with different mic techniques.  what seems to work best is to use 2 short booms and a pair of SM57's.  One almost touching the floor pointing straight up between the two tall congas and the other similarly placed for the smaller ones...except not on the floor of course.  The 57's don't pick up a lot of other stage noise and we get very good control of the levels.  Save yourself a couple of valuable channels.



Interesting! I'll give a comparison try.  Thanks for the feedback and suggestion.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Jason Ellis on August 14, 2008, 05:46:48 pm
Just go to http://www.audiopile.net - they have got cables (I often make my own as well) - but theirs are quite acceptable, and the guitar cables are so inexpensive that have a few walk off isn't too bad...


I usually source my Shure mics through http://www.northernsound.net - good pricing for mics...


FYI no affiliation with either of the above - just a happy customer...be more than happy to share my tape and battery sources as well...
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 14, 2008, 09:41:35 pm
Jason Ellis wrote on Thu, 14 August 2008 17:46

Just go to http://www.audiopile.net - they have got cables (I often make my own as well) - but theirs are quite acceptable, and the guitar cables are so inexpensive that have a few walk off isn't too bad...


I usually source my Shure mics through http://www.northernsound.net - good pricing for mics...


FYI no affiliation with either of the above - just a happy customer...be more than happy to share my tape and battery sources as well...

Awesome...bookmarked the links. Okay, on the Audiopile page for XLR cord ends, how do I determine best quality? I am curious enough to want to know more than simply buying the most expensive, because I want to know why it costs more.

Thanks,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Kent Thompson on August 15, 2008, 12:49:10 pm
We use a single beta 98D/S on congas which has excellent rejection. It clamps right onto the rack or conga rim and has a little goose neck. It picks them up very well. It is more money than a 57 and is a condenser needing Phantom power but, I only use one of them. It doesn't require a microphone stand so stage clutter is reduced too. I like the minimalist approach this option gives me. One less microphone to pick up stage noise.

Anyways back to the channel count discussion. We have a good sized praise team(bigger than most probably) drums, grand piano(not used much now thanks be to God),Keyboard,percussionist,3 horn players,up to 4 guitarists,bass,choir and 2 lead singers,2 microphones for the pastor(hand held and wireless). We suck up 36 channels on our board with this. Not saying you can't do it with 26 but, the channels do go fast so make sure you have enough.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Justin Rygel on August 15, 2008, 03:30:07 pm
Shad Hall wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 02:41


Awesome...bookmarked the links. Okay, on the Audiopile page for XLR cord ends, how do I determine best quality? I am curious enough to want to know more than simply buying the most expensive, because I want to know why it costs more.


In the future, I will probably buy the Starline cables with Neutrik ends.  This is a new product and the Neutrik ends that are included are designed to install a colored band onto the connector, to help identify the cable, very handy.  Quality of the starline cable is comparable or better than most mid-level cables, they use 22 gauge wire, where many lower priced cables from other suppliers use 24 gauge.  This is a relatively new item, and it answers the only problem I have ever had with audiopile cables: I've had a couple (minor) issues with the generic EWI brand connectors that most of their cables use.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 15, 2008, 03:46:22 pm
Kent Thompson wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 12:49

We use a single beta 98D/S on congas which has excellent rejection. It clamps right onto the rack or conga rim and has a little goose neck. It picks them up very well. It is more money than a 57 and is a condenser needing Phantom power but, I only use one of them. It doesn't require a microphone stand so stage clutter is reduced too. I like the minimalist approach this option gives me. One less microphone to pick up stage noise.

Anyways back to the channel count discussion. We have a good sized praise team(bigger than most probably) drums, grand piano(not used much now thanks be to God),Keyboard,percussionist,3 horn players,up to 4 guitarists,bass,choir and 2 lead singers,2 microphones for the pastor(hand held and wireless). We suck up 36 channels on our board with this. Not saying you can't do it with 26 but, the channels do go fast so make sure you have enough.

I'll look into that mic.

Regarding the channel count, we both probably will agree that buying a second mixer board later is dumb when a bit more money could be spent the first time, but for the sake of my knowledge, let me ask this: if down the road 26 channels were not enough, could/would you simply link a second board? Is that even possible?  I'm guessing that you'd suggest selling the first board and buy a new one, but just the same, is it possible to links boards?

Thanks
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 15, 2008, 06:41:12 pm
Regarding Equalizers, according to this YouTube video on How to Set Up Graphic Equalizer, the guy says you need a Spectral Analyzer. Since equalizers are for tuning the sound equipment to the room, that in itself seems pretty important, but we don't have a separate unit as they are built into the all-in-one Mackie 808S mixer board we are using.

In the mean time, I've set each frequency slide to what I thought sounded best and since I don't have the proper scenario to compare it to, it sounds fine. Smile

Now, are these Spectral Analyzers professional-use only equipment that require a PH.D. to operate or can the be rented/purchased? Secondly, if someone/store was to come in and set up all of the new equipment, would they tune that as well?

Thanks,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Mike Galica on August 16, 2008, 12:29:14 am
When it comes to a Spectral Analyzer, RTA, FFT unit or any such other frequency vs amplitude related thing, they're awesome when in the right hands and horribly frightening when in the wrong hands.

I'm being purposefully vague but hopefully not so much so that my point is missed. Wink
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 16, 2008, 02:08:24 am
Mike Galica wrote on Sat, 16 August 2008 00:29

When it comes to a Spectral Analyzer, RTA, FFT unit or any such other frequency vs amplitude related thing, they're awesome when in the right hands and horribly frightening when in the wrong hands.

I'm being purposefully vague but hopefully not so much so that my point is missed. Wink

Nah, I think I got your point. Smile  So since I don't know much about them, what happens to the whole mix if that unit is left out of the equation?  Just curious, though in my opinion/answer would be that I need to then be taught how to use it properly, but that's not my question. Wink

Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Brad Weber on August 16, 2008, 09:25:34 am
Shad Hall wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 18:41

Now, are these Spectral Analyzers professional-use only equipment that require a PH.D. to operate or can the be rented/purchased? Secondly, if someone/store was to come in and set up all of the new equipment, would they tune that as well?

That video is far from the worst presentation on equalization that I've seen but is also from from the best.  Along with a few technical issues, one major factor left out is that there are many issues with both the system and the room that affect the resulting frequency response but that cannot be addressed with equalization.  Things like room modes, speaker interaction and polarity.

Another factor not mentioned is that the frequency response will typically vary all over the room and what helps in one location may be detrimental for others, it is often a matter of measuring in many locations and developing a 'best fit' solution.  Too many people tune the system for the mix position without even considering how it sounds throughout the seating.

A basic RTA (Real Time Analyzer) is not that difficult to use and some can be purchased relatively inexpensively, for example the Phonic PAA3 is not accurate enough that it is something I would use when charging someone for the service but at $400 it can serve as a basic 1/3 octave RTA and a Sound Level Meter.  Many people use inexpensive or free software, often with the soundcard in their laptop and existing mics.  This works but one must remember that you are then including all those devices in what you measure.

The big problem with RTAs is that they cannot identify or separate the type of problems that can't be fixed with equalization, so you can spend all day trying to adjust for something an RTA shows with no effect.  This is where FFT, TEF and SIM type measurements that can look at the sound in terms of time, amplitude and frequency are so valuable, they can help identify such problems and provide information on what may be required to resolve them.  However, to be used effectively takes understanding the basic concepts behind this as well as knowing how to use that particular platform and these devices definitely can be misused.

It is also important to realize that even the most advanced tools are still simply tools to help you get to the desired result but the actual final result is going to be set by what sounds good.  Smaart, SysTune, Praxis, SIM, MacFOH, etc. can't tune a system for you or tell you how to tune it, but properly used they can be an immensely valuable tool in tuning.

As far as someone tuning the system, that depends.  If you used a reputable Contractor to install the system they might include tuning.  It should be an integral part of bigger projects but should always be specifically requested if you want it, don't assume it is being provided.  If you are just buying equipment it would likely not be included.  In either case, you probably want to verify what tuning is included and how it will be performed.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 20, 2008, 02:48:05 pm
Hi everyone,

Life's been busy for me lately and I'm just able to get back to this thread some more.

First of all, again, I would like to say thanks for your input. There still seems to be a lot to learn, but I think we're nearin point of needing to talk to someone in person; would you agree? After that, I can log back and post their suggestions and see what you all have to say about it.

Should we go ahead and have someone come out or keep talking about it here? If the latter, I would like to delve into the overall picture for the shopping list. Questions would be specific as to name/model of speakers, EQ's, cables, etc. Then I would be able to have a list to run by other people.

EDIT:
Here is an almost completed list. What needs to be added to it? (Again, links are only for reference purposes.)

Please specifically address points number 4 and 6.

===========================
1. Mixer Board: $1299
  Allen & Heath PA28
              http://www.guitarcenter.com/Allen---Heath-PA28-Mixer-634045- i1153548.gc


2. Cable Snake: $499 (currently utilizing a ProCo 100' 12/4)
  Horizon Concert Series 100' 16-Channel/4-Return Snake
              http://www.guitarcenter.com/Horizon-Concert-Series-150--16-C hannel-4-Return-Stage-Snake-336678-i1129160.gc


3. Power Amp: $499/ea (house speakers x2, stage monitors x2; 4 speakers total)
  Crown XTi 1000
              http://www.guitarcenter.com/Crown-XTi-1000-Power-Amplifier-1 03635561-i1145684.gc
 

4. Equalizer: ???
              http://www.guitarcenter.com/Search/Default.aspx?src=equalize r&Search.x=0&Search.y=0&Search=Go
  (P.s. I found this Mackie Quad EQ, which has 4 channels, so we could run the two house speakers plus two stage monitors. It also comes with a mic for setting issues.)


5. Speakers: $899/ea (planning 2(two) for house speakers)
  QSC HPR122i
              http://www.guitarcenter.com/QSC-HPR122i-12--2-Way-Powered-Mu             ltipurpose-Loudspeaker-104157565-i1171467.gc?source=4LQSWXX1


6. Speaker cables: ??
  Balanced female XLR connectors on speakers. (Couldn't find any speaker cables with XLR connectors.)


7. Shure SM58: $99
              http://www.guitarcenter.com/Shure-Beta-58A-Mic-100059222-i11 26428.gc


8. Shure SM57: $99
              http://www.guitarcenter.com/Shure-Beta-57A-Microphone-100106 076-i1126429.gc


9. Mic Cables: $15
  30'EWI SLMN
              http://www.audiopile.net/products/Mic_Instr_Cables/SLMA/SLMN /SLMN_cutsheet.asp
===========================


Thoughts?
Shad
Very Happy
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Mike Galica on August 21, 2008, 10:36:57 am
I had some other thoughts than this, but don't have the time to research them more fully.

I'd strongly advise getting different mic cable lengths.  There's few things more annoying than having a 30' cable covering a 3' run.  I'd vote for a handful of 5', 10', and 15's, a good number of 25/30 footers with one or two 50' cables.

Also, why do you need an amp if you're getting powered main speakers?  Because they're powered, any XLR can carry their balanced, line-level signal just fine.  With the powered speakers you may want to invest in a Driverack 260 or equivalent to handle some of your room EQ.

Do you need stands and such as well?  If so go with KLM or something nice and not-cheap-plastic.

That's all of thought of so far.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Aaron McQueen on August 21, 2008, 07:07:49 pm
Here are my thoughts:

Shad Hall wrote on Wed, 20 August 2008 14:48


===========================
1. Mixer Board: $1299
  Allen & Heath PA28
               http://www.guitarcenter.com/Allen---Heath-PA28-Mixer-634045- i1153548.gc



Fine but don't by anything from GC.  You can do much better price as far a price and service.

Quote:


2. Cable Snake: $499 (currently utilizing a ProCo 100' 12/4)
  Horizon Concert Series 100' 16-Channel/4-Return Snake
               http://www.guitarcenter.com/Horizon-Concert-Series-150--16-C hannel-4-Return-Stage-Snake-336678-i1129160.gc



Why not get an EWI snake from audiopile along with your mic cables?

Quote:


3. Power Amp: $499/ea (house speakers x2, stage monitors x2; 4 speakers total)
  Crown XTi 1000
               http://www.guitarcenter.com/Crown-XTi-1000-Power-Amplifier-1 03635561-i1145684.gc



You don't need an amplifier for the powered mains you've chosen below.  You can however use the two amp channels for 2 separate monitor mixes.  

Quote:


4. Equalizer: ???
               http://www.guitarcenter.com/Search/Default.aspx?src=equalize r&Search.x=0&Search.y=0&Search=Go
  (P.s. I found this Mackie Quad EQ, which has 4 channels, so we could run the two house speakers plus two stage monitors. It also comes with a mic for setting issues.)



I would wait on this.  Unless you have someone to help you set this up, that knows what they are doing, you may do more harm then good.  I find that generally with powered speakers less eq is needed.

Quote:


5. Speakers: $899/ea (planning 2(two) for house speakers)
  QSC HPR122i
               http://www.guitarcenter.com/QSC-HPR122i-12--2-Way-Powered-Mu              ltipurpose-Loudspeaker-104157565-i1171467.gc?source=4LQSWXX1



This are great sounding speakers.  However I can't say if they will provide the proper coverage in your room.

Quote:


6. Speaker cables: ??
  Balanced female XLR connectors on speakers. (Couldn't find any speaker cables with XLR connectors.)



You don't need speaker cables for your powered mains.  You just use a mic cable in reverse.  You will need to connect one of you snake returns directly to your powered speakers using a microphone cable.  You will need speaker cables for you monitors.  Remember you will also need power (120V) for your powered mains.

Quote:


7. Shure SM58: $99
               http://www.guitarcenter.com/Shure-Beta-58A-Mic-100059222-i11 26428.gc



While the SM58 has become somewhat of a standard and has been consistent for a long time, I prefer the Sennheiser E835 for a budget dynamic microphone.  You can get a three pack for $180.  They sound better and seem just as rugged.

Quote:


8. Shure SM57: $99
               http://www.guitarcenter.com/Shure-Beta-57A-Microphone-100106 076-i1126429.gc



Fine for instruments.

Quote:


9. Mic Cables: $15
  30'EWI SLMN
               http://www.audiopile.net/products/Mic_Instr_Cables/SLMA/SLMN /SLMN_cutsheet.asp



Good choice.  Get a few other lengths and a couple direct boxes from audiopile while your at it.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 21, 2008, 09:46:40 pm
Aaron McQueen wrote on Thu, 21 August 2008 19:07

Here are my thoughts: "...[i truncated this for length reasons]"



Thank you for the detailed responses to the individual items. That is exactly what I was hoping for. Smile  I will look into your suggestions.  

Shad
Very Happy
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Mike Galica on August 22, 2008, 11:18:46 am
Since Aaron mentioned the Senn 835s, you may want to take a look at the Audix i5 instead of the SM57.  I'm a pretty big fan of them, and IIRC they're about the same price.

http://www.audixusa.com/docs/products/i-5.shtml

Take it for what it's worth; I'm just presenting alternatives.  The SM57 is a solid mic.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 22, 2008, 01:01:56 pm
Mike Galica wrote on Fri, 22 August 2008 11:18

Since Aaron mentioned the Senn 835s, you may want to take a look at the Audix i5 instead of the SM57.  I'm a pretty big fan of them, and IIRC they're about the same price.

http://www.audixusa.com/docs/products/i-5.shtml

Take it for what it's worth; I'm just presenting alternatives.  The SM57 is a solid mic.

What is "IIRC"? I will definitely look into the Audix mics. Is it scientifically been proved to have all the same brand mics on the stage?

Thanks,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Christopher Buehring on August 22, 2008, 01:27:32 pm
Shad Hall wrote on Fri, 22 August 2008 12:01


What is "IIRC"?
Thanks,
Shad


IIRC = If I Recall/Remember Correctly
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Mike Galica on August 22, 2008, 03:58:51 pm
I think the only reason to have the all the same brand of mics on stage is if that brand gave them to you.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Jeff Ekstrand on August 22, 2008, 04:28:51 pm
Brands don't make microphones with the idea that if you use all of their brand on each source you'll gain some form of audible advantage in the world of physics. They'd love to have a stage that's full of Audio Technica, Shure, AKG, Audix, etc. But even the bands that are sponsored or endorsed by a specific company don't necessarily use only that brand of mic... depending on their specific contract. Usually all the mics you see will be from that brand, but backstage micing amps or the like they'll use whatever the engineer thinks best.

I would suggest demoing, renting, etc., as many mics for a particular application as you possibly can. Pick the one you like best for each application. You may end-up with an Audix kick mic, Shure vocals, Sennheisers for brass and guitars, etc. It may not look as awesome not having all the same brand, but we're not in the aesthetics business here, we're in the "How does it sound?" business. Maybe the lighting guys can make the audio setup look better. Smile
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: David Sumrall on August 22, 2008, 06:02:31 pm
Greetings from the land of Tropical Storm Fay.

Hopefully this thing will get out of here before the olympic coverage is over!Surprised)
........

You most definitely don't have to make all your mics the same brand all over your stage.

But there are some advantages to making some things standardized....

Vocal mics- It can be very helpful to make all your hand held vocal mics to have the same element. This makes things a lot easier for eq for FOH and monitors.

Choir mics- again having them be the same mic is very helpful. For example if you have 4 choir mics you would want 4 414's or 4 81's or 4 4041's etc.

Mixed use mics- When you don't have a lot of mics to choose from in your inventory, then having mics that can work in a lot of situations can be very useful. While having just one of this and one of that might not work as well until you get some more inventory going.

Wireless mics- for rf purposes is best to use systems from the same brand vs mixing things up. It is much easier to plan and coordinate rf using the same brand and you can have more channels overall.  Wireless is also a good place to plan for flexibility, for example if you have a wireless pack you could use that for a headset, lav, acoustic guitar, trumpet, violin etc etc.

Hardwired packs- some brands have hardwired packs that have the same pin config as the wireless body pack. We use hardwired packs for clip on condensors and lavs for some instruments and since our wireless is the same it is very easy to be flexible with these mics.  

Budget- condensers are going to cost more. So depending on how much you have and how many mics you need, you might be able to get more inventory without getting as many condensers. Then you could upgrade to condensers later on. You just have to prioritize it for yourself.

Riders-now this might not apply to you as much and might  definitely apply more to larger spaces. Usually artist riders will specify this or that and may list a suitable replacement.
They have this on the riders so that they can get as much consistency as possible in different locations.

Opinions- On this forum you might get a lot of them especially on brand. The main thing is that you get the right mic for the right purpose and that it works well.

Repairs- Some times repair issues might weigh decisions on mic purchases. Some mics can be repaired cheaply some not so cheap.
Condensers are more fragile and will break faster and usually cost more to fix.  

Examples-

Here in our smaller rooms we use 57's on snare, toms, guitar amps, perc etc. They work well, sound great, hold up, and are inexpensive in these applications. These rooms are very multipurpose with operators and musicians at all kinds of ages and experience levels.

Smaller room condensers are all sm81's. They work great and are sturdy. In the small rooms that dont have condensers we might use a 57 as a perc mic or even a choir mic.

For kick we use Beta 52's in all our rooms. I like it better then the AKG D112 which have some that might use for a bass cab etc.

In our main worship center we have a decent inventory that is more of a smorgasbord. We have Akg 414's on the piano, EV re20's on tympani, all choir mics are Neuman, drum kit is still a 52 and 57's with neuman overheads, french horns are sennheiser 421's, flutes are sm81's, strings are shure lav's clipped on to the bridge, trumpets are sennheiser's that used to be on the drum set etc etc.

I'd love to have some dpa's on the strings but i don't think it make too much financial since right now.

My point is not to say hey look at how many mics we have but just to give you some examples.

I wish I could remember the name of one of the books I have at the office. It is specifically  about microphones choice and placement. I'll try and dig it up next week.

Dito on the comments from Jeff or others on renting or borrowing some mics to try. But I would probably move the lovely plant to hear what they sound like better:O)

Good luck!

Time to go walk the dog again, maybe we are in between some rain clouds and this time will be dry!

David

Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 22, 2008, 07:23:42 pm
David Sumrall wrote on Fri, 22 August 2008 18:02



Wireless mics- for rf purposes is best to use systems from the same brand vs mixing things up. It is much easier to plan and coordinate rf using the same brand and you can have more channels overall.  Wireless is also a good place to plan for flexibility, for example if you have a wireless pack you could use that for a headset, lav, acoustic guitar, trumpet, violin etc etc.

David



Thanks for the detailed reply.

Currently we are using two wireless packs by AudioTechnica; one for the guitar and one that is used either for the lav or the head-word ear mic depending on which is needed. One is the 2000 Series and the other unit is the 3000 Series.

Later down the road we will be adding more wireless devices. For future wireless devices, Sennheiser was suggested to me because of their ability to switch channels so quickly, which I understand to be good, but we never have problems with other radio or CB signals and we're only one mile from I-80. The Sennheisers are several hundred dollars more than the units we have which suit us fine; should we still consider the brand switch at the time of arriving to that bridge? I liked your comment about not being so name-dependant, but are Sennheiser wireless devices really that much better? Worth the extra $$$?

Thanks,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 22, 2008, 07:36:58 pm
When the day arrives to purchase all of this equipment, I have several contacts that I will inquire to, which is great, but have a couple of questions.

I have been suggested a couple of web sites that offer fantastic prices that I'm not sure can even be beaten if the items were given to me. Smile Should all products be bought from the same place or is it okay to piece-meal it to save (a reasonable amount of) money if that were to be the case? Also, not all items might be available from one of my contacts and therefore, alternate suggestions would be made, which is fine, but now we're talking about new items again after the list is finalized.  If I know the suggested item to be good from research done on it, then fine, but if not, then I would like to research the new item before purchasing since I'm buying all of this at once.

Can you ease my probably unnecessary thought on this matter?  What's the most efficient approach to this purchasing for all parties concerned?

Very Happy
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Doug Bishop on August 23, 2008, 09:32:26 am
I have a source that I go to for pricing AFTER I have researched all of my items.  I jump on some "online" web sites for pricing and availability of my items.  I also go to the manufacturers' web sites for more research.  Once I'v got my list down I contact my "source" and normally get much better pricing than what is shown on the online sites.  Most manufacturers has a minimum price that distributors are allowed to advertize their products for.  On rare occasions I will find a better deal elsewhere and for quick one item less expensive stuff I usually just hit the online order site of preference/availability.

If it works to divide your purchases fine...sometimes the source with the un-advertized pricing will accomodate you better if the order is larger in which case I would normally take the package deal even if one or two items could be gotten a little cheaper elsewhere.  Often the online sites that push the "free shipping" are high enough to cover the shipping in the cost.

Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Michael Robertson on August 23, 2008, 08:57:01 pm
Not that I haven't bought anything online, but I am choosy. I'll buy some things online, but not others. Dealing locally if available has its advantages. The place we buy from sells some big boy toys, and does not even have a retail space, but they have gobs of gear. I buy there because if I have an amp or something go down on Sunday morning, I can call an owner and have a loaner on the way in a very short time. We also rent from them when we have needs that we don't have the means for and they really take care of us.
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 28, 2008, 10:08:41 pm
Well, we're running into some electrical issues as the building is rather old. I'm hoping to be able to meet with an electrician this coming week and discuss our outlets (or lack thereof), available amp loads, et cetera.  Once I that meeting takes place, then I will post again and we can go from there.

Thanks,
Shad
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on August 28, 2008, 10:12:32 pm
Hi,

I talked with an electrician this week and hope to meet with him this coming week to discuss our situation and see what needs to be done prior to anything else. The church is an old building and there are limited outlets and electrical boxes may need to be beefed up. Will know next week and post an update then.

Thanks,
Shad
Very Happy
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Andy Peters on September 02, 2008, 07:40:59 pm
Mike Galica wrote on Fri, 22 August 2008 12:58

I think the only reason to have the all the same brand of mics on stage is if that brand gave them to you.


Yep.

-a
Title: Re: New Sound System
Post by: Shad Hall on September 15, 2008, 02:51:27 am
Hi,

Sorry for taking so long to get back to this thread. Okay, had an electrician check out our church and with some evidence and resources, he explained how we need some work done ($1k~2k). So that kind of puts things on hold for a bit.  However, when the day nears, I will log back in if necessary to discuss any file details after updating you of the electrical upgrades.

Thanks everyone,
Shad