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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: luis Markson on April 08, 2011, 03:00:37 am

Title: Is this the place for radio broadcast questions?
Post by: luis Markson on April 08, 2011, 03:00:37 am
I've been asked to install a new desk in a local community radio station. I had a look the other day and things are very different to what I'm used to.

So once I start, is this the right place?
Title: Re: Is this the place for radio broadcast questions?
Post by: Brad Weber on April 08, 2011, 08:27:44 am
I've been asked to install a new desk in a local community radio station. I had a look the other day and things are very different to what I'm used to.

So once I start, is this the right place?
I'm not sure what you are asking, but the consoles used for radio are generally different from those used for live sound or recording.  Radio broadcast consoles that I've seen typically have a smaller channel count and rather basic controls with a focus on simple operation.  No auxes, subgroups, etc., often just main mix, cue and maybe talkback and sometimes with only being able to assign a channel to one of those at a time.  Larger meters (typically VU), knobs, faders and buttons to be easy to operate while focusing on other things.  Some consoles integrate some simple machine/computer control.  They also often use multipin connectors for the audio connections.
Title: Re: Is this the place for radio broadcast questions?
Post by: luis Markson on April 08, 2011, 09:31:37 pm
The desk is digital, comprising of a control surface and a rack mount unit. The i/o on the rack is via RJ something or other. I'm hoping to understand the entire signal flow inc the broadcast gear (transmitters etc). As there is no-one who has any knowledge of the gear at the station, I have to start from scratch. The previous "president" ordered the gear and was then dismissed.

So once I start, I will be asking questions about devices in the machine room, what they do and how they interface with the rest of the system.

Title: Re: Is this the place for radio broadcast questions?
Post by: Brad Weber on April 09, 2011, 08:02:28 am
Sounds like it may be something like a Wheatstone console that uses WheatNet-IP.  You may be able to get a great deal of help and support from the manufacturers, however if you really want to do this type of work, and especially want to know more about or work on the transmission aspects, then you might want to get involved in the Society of Broadcast Engineers (http://www.sbe.org/ (http://www.sbe.org/)) and perhaps pursue some of the SBE certifications.
 
While this may be a great opportunity for you both in getting the work and in being a learning opportunity, is it really best serving the station?  Might it be better in the long run for both you and the station to bring in or subcontract someone who has some experience with the systems involved?
Title: Re: Is this the place for radio broadcast questions?
Post by: Mac Kerr on April 09, 2011, 08:17:13 am
The desk is digital, comprising of a control surface and a rack mount unit. The i/o on the rack is via RJ something or other. I'm hoping to understand the entire signal flow inc the broadcast gear (transmitters etc). As there is no-one who has any knowledge of the gear at the station, I have to start from scratch. The previous "president" ordered the gear and was then dismissed.
Sounds like it may be something like a Wheatstone console that uses WheatNet-IP.  You may be able to get a great deal of help and support from the manufacturers, however if you really want to do this type of work, and especially want to know more about or work on the transmission aspects, then you might want to get involved in the Society of Broadcast Engineers (http://www.sbe.org/ (http://www.sbe.org/)) and perhaps pursue some of the SBE certifications.
 
While this may be a great opportunity for you both in getting the work and in being a learning opportunity, is it really best serving the station?  Might it be better in the long run for both you and the station to bring in or subcontract someone who has some experience with the systems involved?

The other possibility is the Telos Axia (http://www.axiaaudio.com/components/default.htm) system. Both the Wheatstone and Axia are IP based systems with all their I/O on RJ45 connectors. You can buy RJ45 to XLR cables from Studio Hub (http://www.studiohub.com/).

Mac
Title: Re: Is this the place for radio broadcast questions?
Post by: luis Markson on April 09, 2011, 08:48:36 am
Sounds like it may be something like a Wheatstone console that uses WheatNet-IP.  You may be able to get a great deal of help and support from the manufacturers, however if you really want to do this type of work, and especially want to know more about or work on the transmission aspects, then you might want to get involved in the Society of Broadcast Engineers (http://www.sbe.org/ (http://www.sbe.org/)) and perhaps pursue some of the SBE certifications.
 
While this may be a great opportunity for you both in getting the work and in being a learning opportunity, is it really best serving the station?  Might it be better in the long run for both you and the station to bring in or subcontract someone who has some experience with the systems involved?

Their budget is $0. There are no deadlines.
Title: Re: Is this the place for radio broadcast questions?
Post by: Charlie Zureki on April 09, 2011, 11:34:07 am
The desk is digital, comprising of a control surface and a rack mount unit. The i/o on the rack is via RJ something or other. I'm hoping to understand the entire signal flow inc the broadcast gear (transmitters etc). As there is no-one who has any knowledge of the gear at the station, I have to start from scratch. The previous "president" ordered the gear and was then dismissed.

So once I start, I will be asking questions about devices in the machine room, what they do and how they interface with the rest of the system.

   Hello,

   With all respect.....why are you involved with a project that is clearly over your head?
 
   This type of work is best left to a broadcast technician, in the States, that means someone that has a Broadcast license or, someone that is supervised by a licensed Broadcast Technician.

   Pass on this job, you could be asking for fines, or a whole-lotta legal troubles.

   Hammer

   
Title: Re: Is this the place for radio broadcast questions?
Post by: luis Markson on April 09, 2011, 11:04:08 pm
   Hello,

   With all respect.....why are you involved with a project that is clearly over your head?
 
   This type of work is best left to a broadcast technician, in the States, that means someone that has a Broadcast license or, someone that is supervised by a licensed Broadcast Technician.

   Pass on this job, you could be asking for fines, or a whole-lotta legal troubles.

   Hammer

   

This is a community station run by seniors. It is effectively a converted bedroom. All I've been asked to do is install a new desk. As there is no deadline, I can take my time to gather the appropriate information before I undertake any removal or installation.

Title: Re: Is this the place for radio broadcast questions?
Post by: Brad Weber on April 10, 2011, 10:20:17 am
This is a community station run by seniors. It is effectively a converted bedroom. All I've been asked to do is install a new desk. As there is no deadline, I can take my time to gather the appropriate information before I undertake any removal or installation.
Something is not matching up here.  Whether the console is Telos, Wheatstone, Audioarts, Arrakis, Radio Systems, Axia, AEQ or whatever, it does not sound like something one would typically associate with a community station operated by seniors out of a bedroom.  And the fact that there is no deadline, no money and no one that understands the equipment makes one wonder why the new console is needed and if trying to sell the console and get what they can to use for other things, like general maintenance of the equipment they already have, might be worth considering.
 
You say that all you are doing is installing a new desk, however you previously noted that you would next be asking questions about other parts of the systems and that "I'm hoping to understand the entire signal flow inc the broadcast gear (transmitters etc)."  Whether the latter are related to being for your personal growth or in order to offer related services may be an important distinction.  Wiring a replacement audio console into an existing broadcast system is one thing but some of the other areas are where they would probably need to get someone with the appropriate experience, equipment and certification to maybe make sure everything is proper and legal.
Title: Re: Is this the place for radio broadcast questions?
Post by: Charlie Zureki on April 10, 2011, 04:01:55 pm
This is a community station run by seniors. It is effectively a converted bedroom. All I've been asked to do is install a new desk. As there is no deadline, I can take my time to gather the appropriate information before I undertake any removal or installation.

Something is not matching up here.  Whether the console is Telos, Wheatstone, Audioarts, Arrakis, Radio Systems, Axia, AEQ or whatever, it does not sound like something one would typically associate with a community station operated by seniors out of a bedroom.  And the fact that there is no deadline, no money and no one that understands the equipment makes one wonder why the new console is needed and if trying to sell the console and get what they can to use for other things, like general maintenance of the equipment they already have, might be worth considering.
 
You say that all you are doing is installing a new desk, however you previously noted that you would next be asking questions about other parts of the systems and that "I'm hoping to understand the entire signal flow inc the broadcast gear (transmitters etc)."  Whether the latter are related to being for your personal growth or in order to offer related services may be an important distinction.  Wiring a replacement audio console into an existing broadcast system is one thing but some of the other areas are where they would probably need to get someone with the appropriate experience, equipment and certification to maybe make sure everything is proper and legal.

 +!  a Cheap Broadcast console is an expensive purchase for a Senior center.

  pew...this one stinks

  Hammer
Title: Re: Is this the place for radio broadcast questions?
Post by: luis Markson on April 11, 2011, 12:26:54 am
Something is not matching up here.  Whether the console is Telos, Wheatstone, Audioarts, Arrakis, Radio Systems, Axia, AEQ or whatever, it does not sound like something one would typically associate with a community station operated by seniors out of a bedroom.  And the fact that there is no deadline, no money and no one that understands the equipment makes one wonder why the new console is needed and if trying to sell the console and get what they can to use for other things, like general maintenance of the equipment they already have, might be worth considering.
 
You say that all you are doing is installing a new desk, however you previously noted that you would next be asking questions about other parts of the systems and that "I'm hoping to understand the entire signal flow inc the broadcast gear (transmitters etc)."  Whether the latter are related to being for your personal growth or in order to offer related services may be an important distinction.  Wiring a replacement audio console into an existing broadcast system is one thing but some of the other areas are where they would probably need to get someone with the appropriate experience, equipment and certification to maybe make sure everything is proper and legal.


 +!  a Cheap Broadcast console is an expensive purchase for a Senior center.

  pew...this one stinks

  Hammer

I don't believe they need the desk. As far as I am aware the existing desk is fully operational. I have expressed this to them.

I was asked if I could Install it for them, as the new president was aware that I had worked in the audio industry. My Grandmother in-law presents a show on the station.

My interest in the broadcast equipment was, as suggested, for my own interest. It occurs to me that it would unwise to install a desk without an understanding of the i/o that interfaces with it.

The station is not run by a seniors center. It is run by seniors because no-one else is interested.

The desk was purchased as part of a government grant, however, no consideration was made for installation.

The desk is:

http://www.logitekaudio.com/jetstream_mini.html

with

http://www.logitekaudio.com/pilot.html

I do not offer any commercial services that would be of any interest to the statio, all I'm trying to do is help a comminity organisation.

What stinks is the assuption that something untoward is going on.

So I'll ask the question again,

When I start to install the desk will I find help here.
Title: Re: Is this the place for radio broadcast questions?
Post by: Brad Weber on April 11, 2011, 08:29:12 am
The issue is that sometimes the best intents can be misdirected and that trying to help someone may do more harm than good.  When you get into broadcast and especially transmission you are getting into a very tightly regulated industry and I think people just wanted to avoid having something come back to bite them or you.
 
I've been involved in several TV and radio broadcast studio projects and it is quite feasible to design and install an entire studio or studio complex without addressing the transmission side, which is often also a totally separate physical facility, other than what signals you need to provide them.  One of the factors often involved in existing commercial facilities and systems was that the existing systems had to remain operating right up until the last minute with everything in place for a very fast switchover to the new gear, which usually occurred at odd hours when the number of listeners or viewers was at a minimum.  In most cases it is not feasible to spend much time on configuration and troubleshooting after the fact, that all has to occur prior to trying to go live with the new equipment.
 
As I mentioned earlier, I have found the console manufacturers to usually be a great resource.  Technical data on that 'engine' including wiring for the audio connections can be found here, http://www.logitekaudio.com/manuals.html (http://www.logitekaudio.com/manuals.html).  Getting into details of the specific application would take knowing factors such as the actual hardware configuration ordered (the JetStream Mini can be ordered with different combinations of microphone, stereo analog line level and stereo S/PDIF and/or AES digital input as well as stereo analog line level and stereo S/PDIF and/or AES digital output cards with all cards available with multiple RJ jacks or a single DB25), what the actual sources are, how any GPIO machine control might be integrated and so on.
 
If you really want to learn more about the broadcast side, I do recommend getting involved in SBE.
 
The equipment being purchased with government funds that did not extend to any installation, training, maintenance, etc. is a story I've seen before.
Title: Re: Is this the place for radio broadcast questions?
Post by: luis Markson on April 11, 2011, 06:31:37 pm
The issue is that sometimes the best intents can be misdirected and that trying to help someone may do more harm than good.  When you get into broadcast and especially transmission you are getting into a very tightly regulated industry and I think people just wanted to avoid having something come back to bite them or you.
 
I've been involved in several TV and radio broadcast studio projects and it is quite feasible to design and install an entire studio or studio complex without addressing the transmission side, which is often also a totally separate physical facility, other than what signals you need to provide them.  One of the factors often involved in existing commercial facilities and systems was that the existing systems had to remain operating right up until the last minute with everything in place for a very fast switchover to the new gear, which usually occurred at odd hours when the number of listeners or viewers was at a minimum.  In most cases it is not feasible to spend much time on configuration and troubleshooting after the fact, that all has to occur prior to trying to go live with the new equipment.
 
As I mentioned earlier, I have found the console manufacturers to usually be a great resource.  Technical data on that 'engine' including wiring for the audio connections can be found here, http://www.logitekaudio.com/manuals.html (http://www.logitekaudio.com/manuals.html).  Getting into details of the specific application would take knowing factors such as the actual hardware configuration ordered (the JetStream Mini can be ordered with different combinations of microphone, stereo analog line level and stereo S/PDIF and/or AES digital input as well as stereo analog line level and stereo S/PDIF and/or AES digital output cards with all cards available with multiple RJ jacks or a single DB25), what the actual sources are, how any GPIO machine control might be integrated and so on.
 
If you really want to learn more about the broadcast side, I do recommend getting involved in SBE.
 
The equipment being purchased with government funds that did not extend to any installation, training, maintenance, etc. is a story I've seen before.

Thanks Brad. I'll start by getting in touch with the distributer and find out exactly how the Jet stream has been configured. I'll look into the SBE too.
Title: Re: Is this the place for radio broadcast questions?
Post by: Geoff Doane on April 20, 2011, 01:28:18 pm
The station is not run by a seniors center. It is run by seniors because no-one else is interested.

The desk was purchased as part of a government grant, however, no consideration was made for installation.

The desk is:

http://www.logitekaudio.com/jetstream_mini.html

with

http://www.logitekaudio.com/pilot.html

That's a fairly serious looking setup there.  Perhaps the previous president was sacked because he spent far too much on a studio console without any thought to how it would be installed. ::)

Anyway, since my day gig is working as a broadcast technologist, here are a few aspects of broadcast installations that you may not be familiar with if you usually do PA installations.

Control room and studio microphones are interlocked with the monitor speakers in those areas.  i.e. when you turn on the mic at the console, the monitor speakers in that area must be automatically muted.  Every true broadcast console will have provision to do this, but there may be some programming involved since there can often be more than one studio space.

Broadcast consoles will often have more than one main mix bus, so that music can be played on-air, while an interview is being recorded independently through the same console.  There will be a monitor section on the console that selects what you listen to at any one time.  You therefore may want to connect recording devices to different outputs of the console, rather than feeding everything from one bus.

Mix minuses.  If you want to put a telephone call on-air or connect with another studio, you need a way to feed the full mix, except for that telephone or studio, back to them as a cue.  You can do this on a conventional console with aux sends, but that's often confusing for broadcast operators.  Real broadcast consoles will have dedicated mix-minus modules, or other means of programming this.  Read up on this and practice.  It's what separates the amateurs from the pros in this business.

GTD