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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: Marc Sebastian on June 12, 2020, 08:11:29 pm

Title: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Marc Sebastian on June 12, 2020, 08:11:29 pm
Hey guys,

We are currently purchasing a church building with a sanctuary capacity for 1250. The sound system is 25 years old (installed 1995) and I am seeking advice before we hire a professional installer to do this line array rigging.
The sanctuary is a circular building with a 180-degree seating audience (see floor plan below). The circular width is 132 ft and the distance from the edge of the stage to last seating row is 80 ft. The mixing engineer controls are a few feet back at 90 ft. Ceiling is about 25 ft high.
The music is mainly pop/rock worship and generally when I mix, I keep levels in the low 90s db. The band is 8 vocals and 7 musicians.

Speakers considerations:
Because of budget limitations, I was originally thinking we can get away with the JBL VRX-932LAP (5 per hang) but as I have been researching these, most people agree that they drop off tremendously after 50 ft. distance.

Then I started looking / researching into the RCF HDL 20-A. These are great speakers and fit our budget which is about $3K per element. My only issue is that these are old / dated technology from 2012 and I feel we would be doing a new installation with old equipment.

As I kept researching, I went to my favorite brand EAW. As a teenager in the 80s, every time I attended a concert and I saw EAW I was blown away. The memories of those musical experiences always brought me to compare EAW to a BMW. Having a very limited budget, I said to myself; do not waste your time looking at EAW, it is out of your league. But I was extremely surprised to find the RSX208L. They are about $3K per element and are “everything ready”. I have not heard them yet but the specs on paper  and what people are saying (see review from Larry Taylor https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=168019.0 (https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=168019.0)), makes these boxes my number one choice so far. EAW markets the RADIUS SERIES for the quick and go setup but in our case, it will be a permanent installation. I am open to suggestions.

Number of hangs considerations:
The 180-degree dilemma: Should we go with 2 or 3 hangs? The coverage area is so wide that I am thinking that 2 hangs of 5 elements will not cover evenly the audience. Also, it is obvious that the budget will be greatly impacted if 3 are needed. Maybe we can do 2 hangs of 6 boxes. What are your thoughts?

As I get ready to play with EAW Mosaic software, I would appreciate any advice. I am open to suggestions.

Thank you,
Marc
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Scott Holtzman on June 13, 2020, 03:41:19 am
Hey guys,

We are currently purchasing a church building with a sanctuary capacity for 1250. The sound system is 25 years old (installed 1995) and I am seeking advice before we hire a professional installer to do this line array rigging.
The sanctuary is a circular building with a 180-degree seating audience (see floor plan below). The circular width is 132 ft and the distance from the edge of the stage to last seating row is 80 ft. The mixing engineer controls are a few feet back at 90 ft. Ceiling is about 25 ft high.
The music is mainly pop/rock worship and generally when I mix, I keep levels in the low 90s db. The band is 8 vocals and 7 musicians.

Speakers considerations:
Because of budget limitations, I was originally thinking we can get away with the JBL VRX-932LAP (5 per hang) but as I have been researching these, most people agree that they drop off tremendously after 50 ft. distance.

Then I started looking / researching into the RCF HDL 20-A. These are great speakers and fit our budget which is about $3K per element. My only issue is that these are old / dated technology from 2012 and I feel we would be doing a new installation with old equipment.

As I kept researching, I went to my favorite brand EAW. As a teenager in the 80s, every time I attended a concert and I saw EAW I was blown away. The memories of those musical experiences always brought me to compare EAW to a BMW. Having a very limited budget, I said to myself; do not waste your time looking at EAW, it is out of your league. But I was extremely surprised to find the RSX208L. They are about $3K per element and are “everything ready”. I have not heard them yet but the specs on paper  and what people are saying (see review from Larry Taylor https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=168019.0 (https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=168019.0)), makes these boxes my number one choice so far. EAW markets the RADIUS SERIES for the quick and go setup but in our case, it will be a permanent installation. I am open to suggestions.

Number of hangs considerations:
The 180-degree dilemma: Should we go with 2 or 3 hangs? The coverage area is so wide that I am thinking that 2 hangs of 5 elements will not cover evenly the audience. Also, it is obvious that the budget will be greatly impacted if 3 are needed. Maybe we can do 2 hangs of 6 boxes. What are your thoughts?

As I get ready to play with EAW Mosaic software, I would appreciate any advice. I am open to suggestions.

Thank you,
Marc


Why are you wasting your money on a line array for such a small facility? 
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Dave Garoutte on June 13, 2020, 12:48:48 pm
Look at Danley.  They surely have the perfect solution for you.
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Caleb Dueck on June 13, 2020, 04:25:02 pm
Look at Danley.  They surely have the perfect solution for you.

Agreed. 

The RSX 208L is great for the price, and actually decent overall - but it's not Danley level. 

Run away from VRX, KLA, and any of the 'fake' line arrays.  The HDL20 I've also installed, and it's definitely a step down in sound quality from EAW RSX. 

Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Marc Sebastian on June 13, 2020, 08:26:15 pm
Never heard of Danley but I'll look into it.

Thank you gentlemen!
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Doug Fowler on June 13, 2020, 09:45:28 pm
Never heard of Danley but I'll look into it.

Thank you gentlemen!

Danley is super solid.  Have a look at Fulcrum Acoustic as well.  You surely don't need 10 vertical array elements, plus outfills, to do this.   

https://www.fulcrum-acoustic.com/
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Scott Holtzman on June 14, 2020, 02:33:55 am
Never heard of Danley but I'll look into it.

Thank you gentlemen!


You didn't answer the question on why you are biased to line arrays?
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Jason Raboin on June 14, 2020, 01:03:41 pm
If you are into the EAW of last century, the folks who were responsible for those products are mostly now at Fulcrum Acoustic.  They are even manufacturing in the old EAW space.  Fantastic sounding speaker systems with many choices of dispersion and SPL.  I don't think there are better sounding conventional speakers, Danley included.

At first glance I would look at 3 per side CCX1265 per side, or the FH series is truly stunning and has even better pattern control than the CCX.

If the client is demanding line array even though you can truly get better results in that space without it, the FL283 is great.  You could do 4 per side and then a CCX12 for out fill. 
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Caleb Dueck on June 14, 2020, 10:42:56 pm
If you are into the EAW of last century, the folks who were responsible for those products are mostly now at Fulcrum Acoustic.  They are even manufacturing in the old EAW space.  Fantastic sounding speaker systems with many choices of dispersion and SPL.  I don't think there are better sounding conventional speakers, Danley included.

At first glance I would look at 3 per side CCX1265 per side, or the FH series is truly stunning and has even better pattern control than the CCX.

If the client is demanding line array even though you can truly get better results in that space without it, the FL283 is great.  You could do 4 per side and then a CCX12 for out fill.

Sounds like our CCX experience is slightly different.  The DX12 is great, the CX12 low-mids limit too soon and it gets harsh.  The CCX has some oddness I couldn't quite sort out. 

Overall though, yes Fulcrum sounds great, especially DX12, TS215, and TS221. 
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Marc Sebastian on June 16, 2020, 01:05:03 am

You didn't answer the question on why you are biased to line arrays?

Hey Scott,

I'm old school and tend to stick with what's proven and have seen line arrays in many small theaters in NYC and they sound great. True, line arrays do not work in every venue. A few years ago line arrays were setup at Carnegie Hall for the annual JVC Jazz festival and it was a disaster. The mixing engineer spent the whole night fighting the room acoustics instead of mixing the band. Carnegie Hall is a place where you drop a pin on stage and you can hear it on the last row.

I won't have a Carnegie Hall type of room so I think the EAW RSX208L are a possible nice choice with 2 hangs of 5 elements each and some side fillers. Am I married to EAW? No, but It's a company I trust with great quality speakers.

On the other hand, I'm researching Fulcrum and Danley (as suggested here). For example the DX and CCX series are installed mainly in halls and recitals according to the profiles Fulcrum has listed. That concerns me since I can not envision installing a 20 speaker spread around the sanctuary.

One thing I failed to mention is that currently there's 90ft. from edge of stage to back wall. However, the back walls are removable and add another 12 ft for a total of 102ft. with an seating capacity for 1600 people.

I continue open to other options but I will have to find dealers / showrooms to hear the Fulcrums and Danleys.

Once again I appreciate your feedback.

Marc
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Scott Holtzman on June 16, 2020, 03:41:15 am
Hey Scott,

I'm old school and tend to stick with what's proven and have seen line arrays in many small theaters in NYC and they sound great. True, line arrays do not work in every venue. A few years ago line arrays were setup at Carnegie Hall for the annual JVC Jazz festival and it was a disaster. The mixing engineer spent the whole night fighting the room acoustics instead of mixing the band. Carnegie Hall is a place where you drop a pin on stage and you can hear it on the last row.

I won't have a Carnegie Hall type of room so I think the EAW RSX208L are a possible nice choice with 2 hangs of 5 elements each and some side fillers. Am I married to EAW? No, but It's a company I trust with great quality speakers.

On the other hand, I'm researching Fulcrum and Danley (as suggested here). For example the DX and CCX series are installed mainly in halls and recitals according to the profiles Fulcrum has listed. That concerns me since I can not envision installing a 20 speaker spread around the sanctuary.

One thing I failed to mention is that currently there's 90ft. from edge of stage to back wall. However, the back walls are removable and add another 12 ft for a total of 102ft. with an seating capacity for 1600 people.

I continue open to other options but I will have to find dealers / showrooms to hear the Fulcrums and Danleys.

Once again I appreciate your feedback.

Marc


You don't need 20 speakers spread across the front.  I am not familiar with the Fulcrum series. I am with the Danley and I think three speakers will cover 90 feet of width.


First I want to make sure you understand that the folks participating in this thread have literally decades of assisting houses of worship achieve their goals.  The consensus is people with little or no experience in the church envision solutions then drive towards selecting the best wrong solution.  The results are usually catastrophic  Frankly you should not be worried about picking which speaker you should buy.  That is the last step.  You need to clearly dictate the results from the system.  Sound Pressure Levels and frequency response goals must be decided then a system designed to meet these goals using the most appropriate and cost effective products.  The vendor that will best support you and form a relationship with your church to achieve those goals is far more important than the products they use to accomplish the goals.  The integrator is responsible for system performance.  If there design is non conforming they will be required to fix it.  If the church purchases the components and attempts to function in the role of integrator they have accepted the liability of design errors.  Is this worth saving a few bucks?  Are you qualified to design the system and comfortable risking the capital?


With that being said you need to using the modeling software provided by the vendors and verify the performance of the design.  The anecdotal evidence you receive on the forum or anywhere else in insufficient.   The only way anyone would know is to model the system.  You could also just stop and start looking for an integrator.


You need to be very careful in choosing one.  Some integrator are very lax in the design phase and push their product portfolio.  There are many who advocate for using an independent consultant for the design phase.  It can be be a bit more expensive but you are guaranteed an autonomous design.  If you choose an integrator or designer don't prejudice them with any preferences.  I would ask for initial point source and line source designs.


When talking about line arrays you have to understand how they work.  A line length of 5 boxes is insufficient to establish the pattern control that is the primary benefit of a line array.  Line arrays are also far more costly than a single point source box.


I had been making very short comments and wanted to take the time to let you know what was on my mind.  It bothers me greatly to see churches waste money.  Often then end up replacing entire systems that were not designed properly.  My goal is to help you avoid that pitfall and be good stewards of your resources.


I hope this helped.


Best regards....Scott
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Dave Garoutte on June 16, 2020, 12:54:11 pm
There was an article here a while ago about why churches often take three tries to get the PA right.
I unsuccessfully did a quick search.
Basically it was planning and budget problems, causing the clients to spend way more than if they had done it right in the first place.
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Philip Roberts on June 16, 2020, 02:59:51 pm
There was an article here a while ago about why churches often take three tries to get the PA right.
Here's the article Dave references:
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf

As you can see from it's publication date this isn't a new problem :/

Philip
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 16, 2020, 03:38:12 pm
Here's the article Dave references:
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf

As you can see from it's publication date this isn't a new problem :/

Philip
Pay me now, or pay me more later-------------------
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Marc Sebastian on June 16, 2020, 09:29:52 pm

You don't need 20 speakers spread across the front.  I am not familiar with the Fulcrum series. I am with the Danley and I think three speakers will cover 90 feet of width.


First I want to make sure you understand that the folks participating in this thread have literally decades of assisting houses of worship achieve their goals.  The consensus is people with little or no experience in the church envision solutions then drive towards selecting the best wrong solution.  The results are usually catastrophic  Frankly you should not be worried about picking which speaker you should buy.  That is the last step.  You need to clearly dictate the results from the system.  Sound Pressure Levels and frequency response goals must be decided then a system designed to meet these goals using the most appropriate and cost effective products.  The vendor that will best support you and form a relationship with your church to achieve those goals is far more important than the products they use to accomplish the goals.  The integrator is responsible for system performance.  If there design is non conforming they will be required to fix it.  If the church purchases the components and attempts to function in the role of integrator they have accepted the liability of design errors.  Is this worth saving a few bucks?  Are you qualified to design the system and comfortable risking the capital?


With that being said you need to using the modeling software provided by the vendors and verify the performance of the design.  The anecdotal evidence you receive on the forum or anywhere else in insufficient.   The only way anyone would know is to model the system.  You could also just stop and start looking for an integrator.


You need to be very careful in choosing one.  Some integrator are very lax in the design phase and push their product portfolio.  There are many who advocate for using an independent consultant for the design phase.  It can be be a bit more expensive but you are guaranteed an autonomous design.  If you choose an integrator or designer don't prejudice them with any preferences.  I would ask for initial point source and line source designs.


When talking about line arrays you have to understand how they work.  A line length of 5 boxes is insufficient to establish the pattern control that is the primary benefit of a line array.  Line arrays are also far more costly than a single point source box.


I had been making very short comments and wanted to take the time to let you know what was on my mind.  It bothers me greatly to see churches waste money.  Often then end up replacing entire systems that were not designed properly.  My goal is to help you avoid that pitfall and be good stewards of your resources.


I hope this helped.


Best regards....Scott

Thank you Scott. That is the reason I came here to broaden my horizon and to connect once again since I've been out of the game for a very long time.

I agree with you guys 100%, we one have one bullet and can not miss.

I'm starting to talk to systems integrators and evaluate the options.

Thank you very much gentlemen.

Best regards,

Marc


Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Marc Sebastian on June 16, 2020, 09:34:53 pm
Here's the article Dave references:
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf

As you can see from it's publication date this isn't a new problem :/

Philip

Thank you Phillip and Dave. I really appreciate this article.

Marc

Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 16, 2020, 09:35:48 pm
Marc-

I think you really, really, really, really (did I say really?) need to use EAW's coverage prediction software and look at what 5 boxes of RSX208L will do.  If you're not disappointed you didn't do something right in the prediction.  I say this not because there's a problem with the RSX or the software, but because frankly 5 compact line array element doth not a line array make.  I call them "dash arrays". They're expensive for their substandard performance compared to a longer (usually much longer) line and generally are not superior in coverage or evenness of tonality when compared to more traditional loudspeakers.
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Scott Carneval on July 02, 2020, 02:19:21 pm
Hey guys,

We are currently purchasing a church building with a sanctuary capacity for 1250. The sound system is 25 years old (installed 1995) and I am seeking advice before we hire a professional installer to do this line array rigging.
The sanctuary is a circular building with a 180-degree seating audience (see floor plan below). The circular width is 132 ft and the distance from the edge of the stage to last seating row is 80 ft. The mixing engineer controls are a few feet back at 90 ft. Ceiling is about 25 ft high.
The music is mainly pop/rock worship and generally when I mix, I keep levels in the low 90s db. The band is 8 vocals and 7 musicians.

Speakers considerations:
Because of budget limitations, I was originally thinking we can get away with the JBL VRX-932LAP (5 per hang) but as I have been researching these, most people agree that they drop off tremendously after 50 ft. distance.

Then I started looking / researching into the RCF HDL 20-A. These are great speakers and fit our budget which is about $3K per element. My only issue is that these are old / dated technology from 2012 and I feel we would be doing a new installation with old equipment.

As I kept researching, I went to my favorite brand EAW. As a teenager in the 80s, every time I attended a concert and I saw EAW I was blown away. The memories of those musical experiences always brought me to compare EAW to a BMW. Having a very limited budget, I said to myself; do not waste your time looking at EAW, it is out of your league. But I was extremely surprised to find the RSX208L. They are about $3K per element and are “everything ready”. I have not heard them yet but the specs on paper  and what people are saying (see review from Larry Taylor https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=168019.0 (https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=168019.0)), makes these boxes my number one choice so far. EAW markets the RADIUS SERIES for the quick and go setup but in our case, it will be a permanent installation. I am open to suggestions.

Number of hangs considerations:
The 180-degree dilemma: Should we go with 2 or 3 hangs? The coverage area is so wide that I am thinking that 2 hangs of 5 elements will not cover evenly the audience. Also, it is obvious that the budget will be greatly impacted if 3 are needed. Maybe we can do 2 hangs of 6 boxes. What are your thoughts?

As I get ready to play with EAW Mosaic software, I would appreciate any advice. I am open to suggestions.

Thank you,
Marc

Hey Marc,

Here's a quick and dirty model I made using Danley Direct based on the image you provided. This is just a pair of SH96HO, and you could probably get the PAIR for the cost of one hang of 5 of the EAW RSX208L. They're passive, so you would need a Danley DNA20K4 amplifier (a single amplifier will drive the pair of speakers) but it would still cost less than the EAW solution and give FAR better results.

Where are you located? Chances are there's a dealer on this forum who could help you out with a demo or handle the whole install for you.

EDiT: It's a shame this forum limits attachments to 512kb, but I can email you a larger version if you'd like.
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 02, 2020, 02:45:08 pm
Hey Marc,

Here's a quick and dirty model I made using Danley Direct based on the image you provided. This is just a pair of SH96HO, and you could probably get the PAIR for the cost of one hang of 5 of the EAW RSX208L. They're passive, so you would need a Danley DNA20K4 amplifier (a single amplifier will drive the pair of speakers) but it would still cost less than the EAW solution and give FAR better results.

Where are you located? Chances are there's a dealer on this forum who could help you out with a demo or handle the whole install for you.

EDiT: It's a shame this forum limits attachments to 512kb, but I can email you a larger version if you'd like.


I don't use the built in file system, this web site https://imgbb.com/ requires no registration and will generate the BB code that you paste right in your post.  That allows for full resolution inline messages and thumbnail previews.  Make sure you use bbcode option and not just link to picture.
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Scott Carneval on July 02, 2020, 02:52:33 pm

I don't use the built in file system, this web site https://imgbb.com/ requires no registration and will generate the BB code that you paste right in your post.  That allows for full resolution inline messages and thumbnail previews.  Make sure you use bbcode option and not just link to picture.

Thanks for the heads up! Hopefully this works...

(https://i.ibb.co/0Bwyqzv/Screen-Shot-2020-07-02-at-2-01-44-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/M8XknJQ)
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on July 09, 2020, 03:28:03 pm
Thanks for the heads up! Hopefully this works...

(https://i.ibb.co/0Bwyqzv/Screen-Shot-2020-07-02-at-2-01-44-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/M8XknJQ)

Not a critique but usually if you send me a plot like that I would ask for a graph with colours stepped at 3 dB increments. It's just too easy to hide issues with a plot like that, although that one looks good.

Also not sure if that plot has any height information on it, probably not, I would want both a section and plan if that is the case.

I am not saying this for you, I'm sure you know all this, more for OP so that if he is getting plots from integrators he can easily stop who is selling BS. It is very easy to make a plot lie if you don't pay attention to the details, it is only a graph after all.
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Caleb Dueck on July 09, 2020, 05:31:08 pm
Not a critique but usually if you send me a plot like that I would ask for a graph with colours stepped at 3 dB increments. It's just too easy to hide issues with a plot like that, although that one looks good.

Also not sure if that plot has any height information on it, probably not, I would want both a section and plan if that is the case.

I am not saying this for you, I'm sure you know all this, more for OP so that if he is getting plots from integrators he can easily stop who is selling BS. It is very easy to make a plot lie if you don't pay attention to the details, it is only a graph after all.

Agreed on the 3dB (or 2dB even) color increments.  Also plots at 4kHz, 250Hz, and 50Hz (at minimum), and frequency response graphs of each market point overlaid to see how well the frequency response overlays, even as the SPL falls off with distance.   This is why boxes like the d&b 24S, for example, are so amazing - they don't have the pure sound quality of Danley but can give excellent tonal evenness. 

With EASE Focus (for example) - I typically aim for a 10 dB colors window, to make the differences more extreme.  The auto setting is often closer to 20dB or so, which makes a 6dB difference seem minimal. 

I'm not as worried about a horizontal plot, although they are easy to do; rather, a plot with walls/ceiling/etc turned on to see how much gak will be reflected off the walls - as well as which areas would do best with spot acoustic treatment. 

It's sad how often integrators (not directed at you Scott!) either purposefully or ignorantly use SPL plots as simply a sales gimmick. 
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on July 09, 2020, 05:34:05 pm


I'm not as worried about a horizontal plot, although they are easy to do; rather, a plot with walls/ceiling/etc turned on to see how much gak will be reflected off the walls - as well as which areas would do best with spot acoustic treatment. 
 

Based off the plot shown, that room is going to need a lot of back wall treatment....
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Caleb Dueck on July 09, 2020, 06:17:25 pm
Based off the plot shown, that room is going to need a lot of back wall treatment....

Agreed. 

Topic swerve - largest venue when I was in college (4k seats) had a perfectly angled rear wall, that focused and mid stage center.  Even with 100% coverage with 1" treatment (never use 1", ever, but I digress) - the slapback from a snare hit was nearly as loud as the actual snare hit.  I forget the exact tempo, but you could drum along with yourself if you got the tempo right. 
Title: Re: Options on new Line Array install
Post by: Scott Carneval on July 10, 2020, 02:02:13 pm
Not a critique but usually if you send me a plot like that I would ask for a graph with colours stepped at 3 dB increments. It's just too easy to hide issues with a plot like that, although that one looks good.

Also not sure if that plot has any height information on it, probably not, I would want both a section and plan if that is the case.

I am not saying this for you, I'm sure you know all this, more for OP so that if he is getting plots from integrators he can easily stop who is selling BS. It is very easy to make a plot lie if you don't pay attention to the details, it is only a graph after all.

Agreed, stepped colors can help, but I have measurement mics with their dB readout turned on which can help show the same information. I spent about 10-15 minutes building this model so I didn't change any of the default settings except switch the center frequency from 1kHz (default) to 2kHz. The idea was more to show that these two speakers can do the job for less money than the previously mentioned line array solution. If I was going to proceed with installing these I would probably spend some more time tweaking the position and angle of the speakers. It looks like there's a little more overlap on the front of the stage than I would like to see, but if you move the cluster forward then the extreme front corners start to lose coverage. It might make sense to put a couple fills in those two spots if the budget would allow.

As for the height, the OP estimated the ceiling height to be 25' so I put the cluster at 23' just to be safe.