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Title: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Mal Brown on April 25, 2020, 08:52:38 pm
I'm just curious.

Thx!
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Jonathan Goodall on April 25, 2020, 09:07:01 pm
That type of array works best in segments, it makes it easier to use digital manipulation to squeeze the output into a defined area (eg glass atrium).  :)
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Caleb Dueck on April 25, 2020, 09:14:15 pm
I'm just curious.

Thx!

I believe it's a mix of all-pass filters, delay shading, gain shading, and some drivers out of phase to actively "kill" lobes. 
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Landon Lewsaw on April 25, 2020, 09:21:28 pm
That type of array works best in segments, it makes it easier to use digital manipulation to squeeze the output into a defined area (eg glass atrium).  :)


Lemon arrays are the next big thing...
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 25, 2020, 10:38:50 pm
I'm just curious.

Thx!

A whole lime would be a lime array, as the individual segments make up the whole. ;)

But there are 3 vertical arrays that use electronics to move things - EAW's ANYA/ANNA, Martin's MLA, and d&b's G/K SL series.  Each implements time, amplitude and equalization in different ways to achieve their end result.

I'm reasonably certain that all of the manufacturers have white papers or other discussion of their technology...
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on April 25, 2020, 10:46:42 pm
A whole lime would be a lime array, as the individual segments make up the whole. ;)

But there are 3 vertical arrays that use electronics to move things - EAW's ANYA/ANNA, Martin's MLA, and d&b's G/K SL series.  Each implements time, amplitude and equalization in different ways to achieve their end result.

I'm reasonably certain that all of the manufacturers have white papers or other discussion of their technology...

Donít forget nearly every steerable column speaker. Renkus Heinz Iconyx is the biggest player but there are many others.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 25, 2020, 11:22:00 pm
Donít forget nearly every steerable column speaker. Renkus Heinz Iconyx is the biggest player but there are many others.

Would those be the lemon arrays that Landon was mentioning? 8)

It's getting kind of citrus-y in here...
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Mike Caldwell on April 26, 2020, 12:27:05 am
Donít forget nearly every steerable column speaker. Renkus Heinz Iconyx is the biggest player but there are many others.

The steerable columns I have worked with (Tannoy & Intellavox) were only "steerable" in the vertical pattern, and the control software lets say needed some streamlining!
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on April 26, 2020, 03:32:27 am
Gsl/ksl is ęsteering on top of a connentional linearrayĽ. You can optimize it a bit, but it has itís limits. You still need to calculate and pin it as a conventional system.
MLA/WP from Martin can be used as a ęconventionalĽ line array, but can be optimimized with great results. Still have to calc an pin it as a conventional system, but you can optimize coverage afterwards with great results.
EAW Adaptive canít be used as a conventional line array, it has to be steered and has the most impressive performance Iíve ever used. Martin getís close, but Adaptive can do some coverage stuff thatís amazing. Adaptive goes up at 0 degrees, you can fly it and adjust coverage afterwards. Huge time saver, a qualified rigger and stage hands can fly a system hours before you arrive to adjust trim levels and set coverage.

A friend of mine did audience sound for a tv show, live bands in an aircraft hangar.
During rehersal the tv bus called him on coms and asked when heís going to turn on the PA. They couldnít hear the bleed like they used to.

Disclamer: I havenít personally used GSL/Anya, but Iíve used the other systems several times.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Peter Morris on April 26, 2020, 04:35:02 am
I'm just curious.

Thx!

In its simplest form beam steering is done with delay. It can provide a virtually curve to the array as shown below, hence steer the sound.

As I understand EAW Anaya works more or like this as does their first version of this technology the DSA250. They also included a lot of addition features to ensure even optimized coverage across the audience area.

Systems such as Martinís MLA, D&B array processing and AFMGís FIR maker are slightly different. They are not really beam steering protocols.

They require the array to be physically curved, but optimize the performance on the listening plane.  They look at the vectors that describe the 3D performance of the drivers/speaker at all frequencies.Ė see one set of 3kHz vectors represented graphically below.

By modifying the delay, amplitude and phase of individual drivers or speakers you can optimise the arrivals on the listening plain.  This is done with some cleaver mathematical optimization algorithms that eventually generate a set of FIR filter tap coefficients. These are loaded in to the systems processors.

Given this amount of control they have with this approach they can also do limited beam steering.

Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Steve-White on April 26, 2020, 11:05:28 am
Beam steering technology in audio systems is the future.  Add to that ribbon drivers.

The electronics side and cost will come down - designs will evolve into flat panels or spheres or curves of some type and offer full control in both X & Y axis.

That's my Nostradamus for the day.  :)

Honestly, I saw this coming back in the 80's while still stacking components for FOH and using JBL & McCauley acoustic lens horns for short throw stuff.

Pretty much a no-brainer really watching the evolution and integration that's ongoing.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on April 26, 2020, 11:27:57 am
Beam steering technology in audio systems is the future.  Add to that ribbon drivers.

The electronics side and cost will come down - designs will evolve into flat panels or spheres or curves of some type and offer full control in both X & Y axis.

That's my Nostradamus for the day.  :)

Honestly, I saw this coming back in the 80's while still stacking components for FOH and using JBL & McCauley acoustic lens horns for short throw stuff.

Pretty much a no-brainer really watching the evolution and integration that's ongoing.

Ribbons are interesting. I used a Alcons systems last year, sounded really good. Peter Morris built his own system with Beyma AMTs, not exactly a ribbon if I understand it correctly, but I would love to hear that system. I've heard that AMT-driver in another design, sounded really nice. (huge DIY home cinema system)
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Mal Brown on April 26, 2020, 12:22:57 pm
Lime arrays...damned ios autocorrect...  but you guys  are funny anyway...

Anyway thanks for the overview.  I really don't aspire to have a need for something like that but it is an interesting concept none the less.   That it seems to apply in the vertical plane rather than horizontal make more sense.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Landon Lewsaw on April 26, 2020, 05:39:59 pm

I asked what people thought of this setup a while back, with actual moving components to literally steer the sound; the consensus seemed to be that it was a gimmick that posed more of a potential problem if anything went wrong than would justify any potential advantage.  Still the concept is pretty intriguing.

https://www.pksound.ca/trinity
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Peter Morris on April 27, 2020, 03:36:40 am
I asked what people thought of this setup a while back, with actual moving components to literally steer the sound; the consensus seemed to be that it was a gimmick that posed more of a potential problem if anything went wrong than would justify any potential advantage.  Still the concept is pretty intriguing.

https://www.pksound.ca/trinity

dB Tech version ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbQJKDa3nQw


Turbosound fly-bar only ... Steve Payne build a remote motorized version of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbQJKDa3nQw
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Steve M Smith on April 27, 2020, 06:16:25 am
A whole lime would be a lime array, as the individual segments make up the whole.


Let's not forget that what we refer to as a segment is actually a sector.




Steve.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Mal Brown on April 27, 2020, 10:00:43 am

Let's not forget that what we refer to as a segment is actually a sector.




Steve.

In the produce aisle ?  I remember going there.  Very colorful...
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Steve Payne on May 04, 2020, 09:27:42 pm
dB Tech version ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbQJKDa3nQw


Turbosound fly-bar only ... Steve Payne build a remote motorized version of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbQJKDa3nQw

Grant Howard actually did the design and build of the "tilt assist".  I just approved the budget.  :-).  It was a real advantage being able to remotely fine tune the overall array angle once flown and at trim height.  Not really the kind of coverage steering the OP is referring to.  Our new Martin Wavefront Precision systems delve pretty deeply into that technology and are very impressive with the results that can be achieved.

https://www.facebook.com/SOUNDWORKSOFVIRGINIA/videos/1393635486557/
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on May 04, 2020, 09:56:15 pm
Grant Howard actually did the design and build of the "tilt assist".  I just approved the budget.  :-).  It was a real advantage being able to remotely fine tune the overall array angle once flown and at trim height.  Not really the kind of coverage steering the OP is referring to.  Our new Martin Wavefront Precision systems delve pretty deeply into that technology and are very impressive with the results that can be achieved.

https://www.facebook.com/SOUNDWORKSOFVIRGINIA/videos/1393635486557/

Thank the lord for the mute button.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 05, 2020, 09:14:09 am
Thank the lord for the mute button.
No kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I could not watch it because of the really annoying "music" (I hesitate to call it that).

It added nothing and totally took away from the whole idea.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: MikeHarris on May 05, 2020, 09:59:58 am
some years ago a friend sent me info on these speakers.  Anyone heard of them...or try them
https://www.edcacoustics.com/
90 transducers..90 channels of DSP & power...WTF
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on May 05, 2020, 10:15:45 am
some years ago a friend sent me info on these speakers.  Anyone heard of them...or try them
https://www.edcacoustics.com/
90 transducers..90 channels of DSP & power...WTF

Yeah, makes sense.

IIRC, when surround-sound was first gaining traction in home theatre, Yamaha made a soundbar with something like 72 drivers and amp channels, which was apparently very good at mimicking surround effects without putting speakers everywhere. Worked by bouncing sound off the walls etc.

Never experienced it myself, but Yamaha's still making similar sound bars with lots of drivers & DSP. Suspect they're doing something right.

Like any directional array, the LF cutoff of the direction control is based on the size of the array - it's still a point source at 20Hz.

I don't know how much (if any) advantage there is over a correctly-specced horn, but the option to vary directivity with the cabinet already installed can be attractive.

Chris
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on May 05, 2020, 10:19:18 am


Like any directional array, the LF cutoff of the direction control is based on the size of the array - it's still a point source at 20Hz.


Did you mean to say 200Hz and maybe even higher?
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 05, 2020, 01:01:43 pm
Did you mean to say 200Hz and maybe even higher?

How long is your.... array, Kevin, and at what freq do you need pattern control?  8)

Shameless plugs:

d&b has a great webinar on basic line array theory that is brand-agnostic.  It's well worth the 60-90 min time investment.  The guys from d&b do a very good job of explaining and illustrating a number of concepts that might otherwise be confusing or appear contradictory.  Highly recommended by this Cranky Old Guy as they confirmed and.or explained much of what I've learned over the last 15 years of using vertical arrays and reading white papers with more math than I can shake a calculator at...

If there's a bright side to the stay at home stuff it's the tremendous learning opportunities being given.  Literally given; a fair bit of what is now on webinar used to be paid training...  Harman/JBL, DigiCo, d&b, l'Acoustic, C-M Hoists & Harp Rigging, Rational Acoustics... in almost every facet of production the manufacturers, distributors, and even end users are stepping up the education.  This is mind-blowing for me.  I remember anxiously awaiting the trade magazines, 30 or more years ago, so I could learn a few new tricks, find a gem or nugget of wisdom or technique and try to experiment with it at a gig.  That was a trickle of information.  Today we hope to get a drink from the 3" fire hose of info being presented.  Priceless.  I hope folks are availing themselves of these opportunities.

edit ps:  I left out https://practicalshow.tech - our friends Mac Kerr, Pete Erskine, Henry Cohen, and new (to me) friend Kelly Epperson.  All kinds of stuff, mostly centered on broadcast, big-boy corporate work with tons of RF, fibre, intercom, and digital transport topics. 
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on May 05, 2020, 10:50:33 pm
How long is your.... array, Kevin, and at what freq do you need pattern control?  8)


Because I am aware of how the length on an array affects the frequency of the pattern control is why I was trying to make the point that a sound bar is going to be a point source a lot higher then 20hz like Chris wrote in his post. I thought it was a typo on his part. That is why I said even higher. I was trying to be nice.

Or are you saying that a sound bar can have pattern control at low frequencies?
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 05, 2020, 11:44:39 pm
Because I am aware of how the length on an array affects the frequency of the pattern control is why I was trying to make the point that a sound bar is going to be a point source a lot higher then 20hz like Chris wrote in his post. I thought it was a typo on his part. That is why I said even higher. I was trying to be nice.

Or are you saying that a sound bar can have pattern control at low frequencies?

Nope, I'm a believer in fat copper and long vertical arrays. ;)

But you actually hit on part of what d&b covered in their webinar - how long is the "line" that provide summation at X freq at a given spot in the listening plane and that was the source of "how long is your line", because depending on freq and location the answer changes.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on May 06, 2020, 03:42:41 am
Did you mean to say 200Hz and maybe even higher?

I was picking 20Hz as a frequency where it would definitely still be a point source.

IIRC, anything bigger than about 1/2-wavelength will start to show some directionality. At 200Hz, the wavelength is 1.7m, so half-wave is 0.85m. I can imagine that Yamaha has probably made a soundbar that approaches that in the horizontal dimension, so it's possible that there's a little directional control at 200Hz.
I expect the larger speakers from EDC Acoustics could be similar in size, but I didn't pull the datasheet to check.

Chris
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Luke Geis on May 06, 2020, 09:31:33 pm
True directional control occurs when the length of the array is four times the wavelength of interest. Most full-size arrays don't get much longer than about 30-40' in length. A 100hz wavelength is roughly 11' so you would need 40' of array to have true directional control of frequencies above 100hz. Since most arrays are not that long though, 200hz is about the practical limit where some control can be achieved. 

The method of beam steering, in my understanding, is that you need multitudes of drivers within a single element in order to do it with great success. Your typical 3-4 driver line array element can do it to some degree at certain frequencies, but you really need several more in order to get a more granular and effective level of control. Think of EAW's Anya rig with 70 HF drivers per element, or Martins MLA with 7 drivers in total.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Peter Morris on May 06, 2020, 10:59:00 pm
True directional control occurs when the length of the array is four times the wavelength of interest. Most full-size arrays don't get much longer than about 30-40' in length. A 100hz wavelength is roughly 11' so you would need 40' of array to have true directional control of frequencies above 100hz. Since most arrays are not that long though, 200hz is about the practical limit where some control can be achieved. 

The method of beam steering, in my understanding, is that you need multitudes of drivers within a single element in order to do it with great success. Your typical 3-4 driver line array element can do it to some degree at certain frequencies, but you really need several more in order to get a more granular and effective level of control. Think of EAW's Anya rig with 70 HF drivers per element, or Martins MLA with 7 drivers in total.

FWIW - Anya has 2 x 15" + 6 x 5" + 14 x 1" per box and is a beam steer array.  MLA has 2 x 12" + 2 x 6.5" + 3 x 1" per box. It is not a beam steer array and the boxes must be arrayed as normal, it is however capable of doing some minimal steering.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on May 07, 2020, 04:08:49 am
True directional control occurs when the length of the array is four times the wavelength of interest.

Depends on your definitions.

An array that's 1/2-wave long, for example, will show a null at 90 degrees off-axis, pretty much by definition. That doesn't mean there's strong directional control, but some directivity is certainly being exhibited.

Chris
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Luke Geis on May 07, 2020, 06:57:39 pm
fwiw I must have been half asleep when I wrote 70HF drivers.... Yes 14 per Anya. I believe the Anya is meant to be entirely a beam steering system as it hangs straight with no splay between boxes. Each speaker in the box is also on its own amp channel with its own dsp. Despite that, the length of the array is the major factor in its ability to control coverage and MOST arrays are not long enough to have any real control over a usable number of octaves anyway. A 12 box hang of any array is only barely enough to be considered a full hang. Most people seem to utilize between 4-8 boxes when doing corporate and smaller shows. What's the point? Still to this day have not heard a LA system that has made me go hell yeah, must have.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Mac Kerr on May 07, 2020, 07:04:55 pm
fwiw I must have been half asleep when I wrote 70HF drivers.... Yes 14 per Anya. I believe the Anya is meant to be entirely a beam steering system as it hangs straight with no splay between boxes. Each speaker in the box is also on its own amp channel with its own dsp. Despite that, the length of the array is the major factor in its ability to control coverage and MOST arrays are not long enough to have any real control over a usable number of octaves anyway. A 12 box hang of any array is only barely enough to be considered a full hang. Most people seem to utilize between 4-8 boxes when doing corporate and smaller shows. What's the point? Still to this day have not heard a LA system that has made me go hell yeah, must have.

The demo I went of Anna was either a 4 or 6 box hang. The beam steering capabilities were astounding. They were able to sweep a fairly narrow vertical slice of coverage from right below the array to the far back of the room. You are free to remain a skeptic, it worked when I saw it.

Mac
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 07, 2020, 08:43:55 pm
The demo I went of Anna was either a 4 or 6 box hang. The beam steering capabilities were astounding. They were able to sweep a fairly narrow vertical slice of coverage from right below the array to the far back of the room. You are free to remain a skeptic, it worked when I saw it.

Mac
^^^ What Mac said...

I went to the Avid/EAW/Tom Petty dog and pony show.  I walked the arena while most of the others were learning Console Tricks from Scovi... and then chatted up the system engineer.  I was impressed and that takes a lot these days.  Anya is big, heavy, and the widgets and doohickeys and little squirrels inside are all complicated things.

But it does what it says on the tin, so to speak.  The coverage was consistent, both in SPL and tonality, even 80į down.  While EAW is not the only manufacturer to accomplish this the Anya was the first rig I'd heard where I trust how it was set up (for a show, not a demo, and by Scovi/Sound Image techs).

Luke, you need to get out more.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on May 08, 2020, 05:22:49 am
The demo I went of Anna was either a 4 or 6 box hang. The beam steering capabilities were astounding. They were able to sweep a fairly narrow vertical slice of coverage from right below the array to the far back of the room. You are free to remain a skeptic, it worked when I saw it.

Mac

+1
I've done corporate shows with as little as 2 or 3 Annas a side, the coverage was still a thing of beauty even with such a limited number of boxes.

Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on May 08, 2020, 07:17:45 am
The demo I went of Anna was either a 4 or 6 box hang. The beam steering capabilities were astounding. They were able to sweep a fairly narrow vertical slice of coverage from right below the array to the far back of the room. You are free to remain a skeptic, it worked when I saw it.

Mac

Question: how much of the frequency range was effectively steered?

I can imagine it's pretty easy above a few hundred Hz. Just do it end-fire style and apply progressive delays to the different elements to "launch" a wavefront in the desired direction.

Below a few hundred Hz, where the array is getting acoustically small, it gets more challenging. I'd guess that you have to start inverting the signal to certain elements to actively "cancel" sound going in that direction. If that's the case, output has to suffer in the name of directivity control.

Just curious. I'm not in the market for line arrays and haven't attended any demos.

Chris
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Luke Geis on May 08, 2020, 07:06:13 pm
I wish I could get out more.......   :)  I should have made a new paragraph when I said: " despite that ". I have not myself heard the Anya, but everyone I talk to about them says the same thing, amazing coverage control. Sound wise, well I'm sure it sounds just as well as the others. There isn't much to dispute though, that the length of the array is a factor in its ability to control coverage. I would imagine the Anya to be better than most conventional LA systems, it has multitudes more DSP and drivers to do what it does. However, a longer 8-16 box length of Anya's I imagine can do more than a 4 box hang in terms of control. 

It's not that I am a skeptic, I just have not heard a LA system yet that has made me that excited. Meyers, L'Acoustics, D&B, Martins, JBL's and several others have all done well and honestly sound fine, but none have made me go OMG that is amazing; YET.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Steve-White on May 08, 2020, 07:27:01 pm
The demo I went of Anna was either a 4 or 6 box hang. The beam steering capabilities were astounding. They were able to sweep a fairly narrow vertical slice of coverage from right below the array to the far back of the room. You are free to remain a skeptic, it worked when I saw it.

Mac

This concept has been around a while and is proven as in the acoustic lens horns designed in 1954 that worked on mechanical delay line to spread the wavefront.  Today it's used in sound projection equipment slated for military applications with very narrow beam projection of noise.  Projection of high intensity sound pressure that can disable/disorient ground troops on the battlefield.

A hop skip and a jump to PA audio systems with today's processing power.  Powered boxes with the processing onboard and network controlled.

5 years from now this will be standard at the high end of the industry.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Steve Payne on May 09, 2020, 12:39:10 am
It's not that I am a skeptic, I just have not heard a LA system yet that has made me that excited. Meyers, L'Acoustics, D&B, Martins, JBL's and several others have all done well and honestly sound fine, but none have made me go OMG that is amazing; YET.

Curious what systems have you heard that made you go OMG that is amazing?
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Luke Geis on May 09, 2020, 10:38:06 pm
The L'Acoustics ARC was one, I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Meyer UPJ's for what you would use them for. The Martin W8 was probably the best LA system I have used so far and really was impressed by. It just sounded right from the get-go. I have used and heard several other systems but there was always just something about them. Martin in general just has a sound I prefer I guess, as I have not been disappointed by anything of theirs I have used. I really like the L'Acoustics point source stuff, it too just sounds right from the get-go. I own the JBL SRX 800 stuff and for the price, it kicks some good booty and requires very little work to make me happy. I have an octet of RCF NX series monitors that also for the price really do sound good and measure well. It's not that I am a snob, I just have a sound in my head that I think is right and not many arrays or speakers fall into that idea.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Martin Morris on May 10, 2020, 06:06:04 am
The L'Acoustics ARC was one, I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Meyer UPJ's for what you would use them for. The Martin W8 was probably the best LA system I have used so far and really was impressed by. It just sounded right from the get-go. I have used and heard several other systems but there was always just something about them. Martin in general just has a sound I prefer I guess, as I have not been disappointed by anything of theirs I have used. I really like the L'Acoustics point source stuff, it too just sounds right from the get-go. I own the JBL SRX 800 stuff and for the price, it kicks some good booty and requires very little work to make me happy. I have an octet of RCF NX series monitors that also for the price really do sound good and measure well. It's not that I am a snob, I just have a sound in my head that I think is right and not many arrays or speakers fall into that idea.

Still to this day have not heard a LA system that has made me go hell yeah, must have.

If it sounded right from the get-go and you were really impressed - Isn't that a "Hell Yeah" moment?
Check out the Martin WPL or MLA, which are current systems, unlike the legacy W8.



Cheers
Martin
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Luke Geis on May 10, 2020, 03:13:25 pm
I wouldn't say so. First of all the W8LM is discontinued. Second, it still wasn't so good that I was saying I had to have it. It was just the best sounding and reacting of the ones I had used thus far. From a technology standpoint, it is rather simple and lackluster. Martin just got the sound right ( for me ) with this box. It still exhibits all the typical downsides of common LA systems.

I prefer PA systems that are not really noticed. When you are listening to the band, it just sounds like the band. When you are watching the play or theater performance, it just sounds like the people are saying their dialog and singing their parts, the PA is just in the room. When I notice the PA because of its idiosyncrasies, bad setup, incorrect application, or simply bad mixing, I start to get anxious and bothered. I am a huge fan of letting the engineer do them and accepting that my idea of a good sound is different than others. I feel I can tell the difference between bad engineering and PA systems simply being themselves. I also know that most engineers don't always get to dictate and truly design and select the tools they get stuck with. So with a grain of salt, I realize that not everything is always going to be rainbows, butterflies, and unicorns. I have heard and worked with enough LA and PS systems to have a good idea of what they are capable of, what they should sound like, and how it can be a problem in different applications. So when I hear a system that is of class A caliber and it doesn't impress me, I more or less leave it at that. It is a tool designed to do a task. If I am stuck working with it, I make the best I can of it. There have only been a handful of shows that I have done and only a handful of others I have attended where I feel the sound was absolutely amazing. It can always be better. I like the tools I mentioned because they perform exceptionally well given their applicational use and getting good results is easy. When I don't have to play god with sound is when I am most happy. 
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Doug Fowler on May 10, 2020, 03:31:47 pm
When I notice the PA because of its idiosyncrasies, bad setup, incorrect application, or simply bad mixing, I start to get anxious and bothered.

What, you're still in the business?  :)

Paraphrasing Don and Carolyn Davis, if bad sound were lethal we would all be dead.

I once had a BE tell me he always pulled 1.6K out of EAW systems because of the wood used in construction. 

I had another BE ask me to ask EAW if they could put a "fast" knob on system controllers so he could have faster subs.  This is the same guy who was having trouble with an intermittent headset mic, so to test it he ran a sine wave through the sidefill subs, taped the mic in front, then disappeared to catering.  I returned from catering to find two SB1000s smoking.  Still making noise (sort of) but they were toast.

I have not heard a pro PA so bad I blamed the system since JBL hired Paul Bauman to fix Vertec. 
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 10, 2020, 03:43:50 pm
And that Paul did.  I had a great lunch conversation with him about what he'd walked into when he was hired.  Some of it wasn't too bad and some was what one would expect from JBL 15 years ago.  I like to think a lot of Paul's thinking carried over into the VTX.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 10, 2020, 03:52:44 pm
Luke, you're conflating *voicing* with *performance*.  If you've ever set up a full Meyer rig from scratch you'd know they sound... uh... honest.  If you don't like what you hear, you need to voice the PA to your liking first.  And Bob McCarthy wrote a book (now 3rd edition) about the process of aligning and optimizing a system to enable that...
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Doug Fowler on May 10, 2020, 06:37:05 pm
And that Paul did.  I had a great lunch conversation with him about what he'd walked into when he was hired.  Some of it wasn't too bad and some was what one would expect from JBL 15 years ago.  I like to think a lot of Paul's thinking carried over into the VTX.

Vertec suffered like KF760 did: users were not locked out of the system controller.

Question: are there any A level systems currently produced that do not lock out users?
Title: Re: Lime Arrays- Fruit Cup Processing for more Vitamin C
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 10, 2020, 11:17:12 pm
Vertec suffered like KF760 did: users were not locked out of the system controller.

Question: are there any A level systems currently produced that do not lock out users?

I think Riley Casey has the last unlocked VerTec rig in the USA, FWIW. ;)

I'm scratching my head and can't think of any rider-accepted A level rig that has open processing.

Well if that's the case I'm sure it sounded as good as possible.

Oh shit I modified rather than quoting. Sorry about that!

Doug, you having those fat-finger moments, too?  I thought that was just me.

That didn't come across the way I meant it to - nothing wrong with Riley's VerTec rig, he's got clients that like it and the service he provides.  One doesn't see *new* A level rigs with open processing anymore.  Sorry Riley, I wasn't trying to disparage your gear or work.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays that advertise digital steering. How does this actually work ?
Post by: Luke Geis on May 10, 2020, 11:45:21 pm
Having set up Meyer systems among others from scratch, I would say that they all have A sound. Honest, pure, true, charactered or whatever that sound may be is not the issue. Again, realize I didn't say that any of them sounded bad, just that none sounded so good I was clamoring to get one. D&B has a sound, Meyer has a sound, Vertec has a sound, this is also combined with each of the systems own ways of dealing with the inherent issues of a LA system. The Q shift as you walk from the front row to the back, the off-axis response of the array, the splash off the back of the array, heck even the way the subs are implemented. With D&B and their cardioid subs, it is a rather weird experience being a Monitor engineer for a band that is all IEM and all you can really hear is the splash off the back of the main hangs and the raw acoustic drum kit banging away.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays- Fruit Cup Processing for more Vitamin C
Post by: Doug Fowler on May 10, 2020, 11:55:12 pm
I think Riley Casey has the last unlocked VerTec rig in the USA, FWIW. ;)

I'm scratching my head and can't think of any rider-accepted A level rig that has open processing.

Well if that's the case I'm sure it sounded as good as possible.

Oh shit I modified rather than quoting. Sorry about that!

DOH let's try this again. I'm sure Riley's Vertec sounded as good as possible.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays- Fruit Cup Processing for more Vitamin C
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 11, 2020, 12:36:03 am
DOH let's try this again. I'm sure Riley's Vertec sounded as good as possible.

Yeah, that didn't come out the way I intended.  Riley's rig is not lacking, by all accounts.  That's probably why it's still making money for him.

Title: Re: Lime Arrays- Fruit Cup Processing for more Vitamin C
Post by: Doug Fowler on May 11, 2020, 01:46:09 am
Yeah, that didn't come out the way I intended.  Riley's rig is not lacking, by all accounts.  That's probably why it's still making money for him.

Fscking quarantine fat finger shit. 😂

Riley and Steve Payne are East Coast Regional Sound Company Kings for good reason.
Title: Re: Lime Arrays- Fruit Cup Processing for more Vitamin C
Post by: Steve Payne on May 11, 2020, 04:23:49 pm
Fscking quarantine fat finger shit. 😂

Riley and Steve Payne are East Coast Regional Sound Company Kings for good reason.

Thanks for the kind nod, Doug.  It might be pointed out that Soundworks liquidated the last of it's Turbosound Flex Array inventory over the winter and are now employing latest generation Martin Audio Wavefront Precision systems, including WPL, WPC and WPS.  These all happen to be very much dsp controlled zone based systems as per the OP's original question.  To the OP:  The voicing on these systems throughout the WP line is very similar and much to our liking, though that could certainly be a matter of taste.  What goes beyond matter of taste and is completely measurable is the incredible consistency these systems achieve in both level and frequency response throughout the entire defined audience listening area.  There is plenty of info as well as the control software available for download from the Martin site which goes into considerable detail as to how they achieve these results. 
Title: Re: Lime Arrays- Fruit Cup Processing for more Vitamin C
Post by: Lee Buckalew on May 12, 2020, 10:52:48 am
Thanks for the kind nod, Doug.  It might be pointed out that Soundworks liquidated the last of it's Turbosound Flex Array inventory over the winter and are now employing latest generation Martin Audio Wavefront Precision systems, including WPL, WPC and WPS.  These all happen to be very much dsp controlled zone based systems as per the OP's original question.  To the OP:  The voicing on these systems throughout the WP line is very similar and much to our liking, though that could certainly be a matter of taste.  What goes beyond matter of taste and is completely measurable is the incredible consistency these system achieve in both level and frequency response throughout the entire defined audience listening area.  There is plenty of info as well as the control software available for download from the Martin site which goes into considerable detail as to how they achieve these results.

As Steve has said Wavefront Precision does a fantastic job of even coverage both in terms of SPL and frequency response.
MLA does an even better job of control and consistency.
 
There are 3 MLA webinars tomorrow for anyone who has been following this thread and wants to know more about it and have the chance to ask questions of the factory. 
I have included the link here to the MLA webinar registration page; https://register.gotowebinar.com/rt/5123946692843307788 (https://register.gotowebinar.com/rt/5123946692843307788)

Here is a link to the Training Page that has information regarding all of their upcoming webinars as well as links to be able to watch previous training sessions and webinars.
https://martin-audio.com/training (https://martin-audio.com/training)

Hopefully I have added the links correctly for anyone interested.  If not I imagine someone will let me know.

Lee