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Title: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: John L Nobile on March 09, 2020, 03:52:48 pm
I've seen cut offs from 80 to 240 hz for lo cut filters on vocal mics.  I tend to use 100 to 120 hz for male and 120 -150 hz for female.  I was wondering what others like to use.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 09, 2020, 03:55:31 pm
I've seen cut offs from 80 to 240 hz for lo cut filters on vocal mics.  I tend to use 100 to 120 hz for male and 120 -150 hz for female.  I was wondering what others like to use.

Avid's HPF is steep, I find that 150Hz is not uncommon for males, females it depends on how they work the mic and what their singing register is.  I'll go around 1/3 octave high for stock Yamaha HPF slopes.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Joris Jans2 on March 09, 2020, 04:01:49 pm
i just use what i have/need to use.
if you have the possibility use a low-shelf too, helps me clearing up the low end without making thin
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Jim McKeveny on March 10, 2020, 08:13:46 am
It depends. (Thanks Ivan!) How many open vocal mics? How solid is stage? Are there subs? Subs on aux? Is this the a capella bass vocalist? Does a little "girth'/overhang/threshold rumble sound better (on this song/verse/break) than without it? What is the rig+room doing and what is it allowing me to do?

Different consoles/software have different default HF frequencies. What matters most is that they are pre-engaged on the appropriate channels, and easily adjusted during check & performance. No scroll left, scroll down, click-click-click, jogwheel,click-click BS. Touch & Turn please.

Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Caleb Dueck on March 10, 2020, 11:06:15 am
i just use what i have/need to use.
if you have the possibility use a low-shelf too, helps me clearing up the low end without making thin

I was always told to slide the HPF frequency up until it sounds a bit thin, back it off a touch, and you're good; the exact number doesn't matter as it varies.  Depending on mic, as others have said, sometimes a little low-mid EQ or low shelf EQ. 
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: John L Nobile on March 10, 2020, 11:21:52 am
I was always told to slide the HPF frequency up until it sounds a bit thin, back it off a touch, and you're good; the exact number doesn't matter as it varies.  Depending on mic, as others have said, sometimes a little low-mid EQ or low shelf EQ.

I like that method. Basically "use your ears". In this world of on screen graphics I need to remind myself of that so as not to keep falling into the trap of using visuals only. On analog boards you had fixed HPF's. 80, 100 etc. Only the higher end boards had variable HPF's and you used your ears to set the frequency.

Had a BE over the weekend that had HPF too high for my tastes which I thought made vocals sound thin. Made me curious to see what others were using.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: brian maddox on March 10, 2020, 12:19:07 pm
I was always told to slide the HPF frequency up until it sounds a bit thin, back it off a touch, and you're good; the exact number doesn't matter as it varies.  Depending on mic, as others have said, sometimes a little low-mid EQ or low shelf EQ.

Yep, i wind it up until i hear it affecting the vocal then back it back a tad.  Kinda my approach to compressors as well.  Dial it up until i can hear it working, then back it off a tad.

a tad is a little more than a smidge.  for those wondering...
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Dave Garoutte on March 10, 2020, 12:24:45 pm
Yep, i wind it up until i hear it affecting the vocal then back it back a tad.  Kinda my approach to compressors as well.  Dial it up until i can hear it working, then back it off a tad.

a tad is a little more than a smidge.  for those wondering...
But less than a scosh?
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Luke Geis on March 10, 2020, 02:13:18 pm
I use the same approach as Caleb. Wind it up until the vocal sounds thin and then back down until it just starts sounding full again and play in that zone until its right. Sometimes depending on the steepness of the HP filter, I will employ a shelving filter as well. If it seems the HP filter makes the vocal thin, or allows too much boom to go by, I will find where it is just short of too full sounding and then use a shelving filter to further control the low end. I find that once you start getting to around 200hz, you should easily notice it and I think usually somewhere between 160hz and 120hz is where I tend to end up. That being said, it starts with listening first. I shoot for a natural-sounding vocal and err to the thin side. In speech, it is not as pleasant, but when in a band context it is more desirable.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on March 10, 2020, 02:14:58 pm
As everything it all depends. If it's for music, dial it up until it sounds how you want that particular filter to sound.

If it's for speakers covering a big arena or something, I do the same as above: I can crank that HPF to 400 and smash that strip with a compressor, if it sounds like what I want it for that application, including mic work, system-tuning etc.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Caleb Dueck on March 10, 2020, 03:26:51 pm
I shoot for a natural-sounding vocal and err to the thin side. In speech, it is not as pleasant, but when in a band context it is more desirable.

Great point that many novice mixers tend to forget- the overly scooped, cookie-monster thick vocal sound rarely fits the mix well.  And especially poor for speech (IE corporate or HoW) application.

Recording class in college, prof played a full rock band mix, and asked us how the vocals sounded.  "Great!" 
Soloed just the vocals and asked us again - "Wow, they're a bit too thin." 
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on March 10, 2020, 03:31:01 pm
Solo a metal-kick too, it wouldn't sound very good either, but in the mix it fills in what it's supposed to fill in and sounds good, in the mix :)
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on March 10, 2020, 03:40:26 pm
I agree with Caleb, Brian and Luke..... when I first saw this post I wasn't sure how to answer because I don't necessarily think about the numbers as much as listen for what I believe is the most suitable freq to roll off.
When I run sound for bands other than ours, I will set each vox channel to 100hz as a starting point but then adjust accordingly when band starts playing/singing.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Caleb Dueck on March 10, 2020, 03:53:19 pm
Subs on aux?

Another good point often overlooked - if there is zero vocal routed to the subwoofers, the HPF isn't quite as critical, may not need to be as aggressive, and likely has less need of an additional low shelf cut.

The worst are stereo (non-aux-fed) systems with a huge sub haystack.  "Low mids are completely gone, but 55Hz is still flat!"
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: John L Nobile on March 10, 2020, 04:00:38 pm
Another good point often overlooked - if there is zero vocal routed to the subwoofers, the HPF isn't quite as critical, may not need to be as aggressive, and likely has less need of an additional low shelf cut.

The worst are stereo (non-aux-fed) systems with a huge sub haystack.  "Low mids are completely gone, but 55Hz is still flat!"

I've been thinking of going aux fed subs for this reason. Might try it next time I get a chance to mix.

I remember an old method of using 2 channels for your lead singer/MC. One is eq'd for singing while the other is eq'd for a nice fat FM DJ sound and flipping between singing and talking.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Ike Zimbel on March 11, 2020, 03:58:54 pm
But less than a scosh?
Is that an Imperial, or Metric, scosh?
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Riley Casey on March 11, 2020, 06:54:11 pm
High pass filters are good for what ails ya'.  I use them on all inputs including bass and kick drum. It simply tightens everything up. Just need to know what the fundamental of various instruments are.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: brian maddox on March 12, 2020, 12:17:05 am
Is that an Imperial, or Metric, scosh?

All these measurements are in 'Murica
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on March 12, 2020, 08:32:22 am
High pass filters are good for what ails ya'.  I use them on all inputs including bass and kick drum. It simply tightens everything up. Just need to know what the fundamental of various instruments are.

It is amazing just how good I can get bass and kick to sound by sweeping the HP on those channels and bringing up the HP a little higher than one might usually - on the bass channel sometimes as high as 65hz or so. It can really allow the instruments to cut through the mix.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on March 12, 2020, 09:06:49 am
It is amazing just how good I can get bass and kick to sound by sweeping the HP on those channels and bringing up the HP a little higher than one might usually - on the bass channel sometimes as high as 65hz or so. It can really allow the instruments to cut through the mix.

This is good advice and one of those things that doesn't seem right on paper but holds up in live mixing. Certainly in some gym , barn, high reverb time venues.  (Depending on what is desired) It is easy to try and use if needed.
How's the Danley rig going? Any outdoor shows this summer?

Douglas R. Allen
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Mike Caldwell on March 12, 2020, 09:55:00 am
If your program content is a person or two doing a speaking presentation you may find yourself sliding the HP some as well as some "dynamic eq" tweaks as the mic technique varies through the presentation.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Ike Zimbel on March 12, 2020, 10:00:39 am
This is good advice and one of those things that doesn't seem right on paper but holds up in live mixing. Certainly in some gym , barn, high reverb time venues.  (Depending on what is desired) It is easy to try and use if needed.
How's the Danley rig going? Any outdoor shows this summer?

Douglas R. Allen
My take on this is that for years, we, as an industry, struggled to get enough bass (LF response) out of our systems, especially in terms of LF extension. Well, that problem has long since been solved, and now it's quite common to have too much LF response and extension. This means that many systems have the the LF response to do, say EDM gigs. The problem then becomes that if you're not mixing that type of music, you can end up with bowel moving kick drum and bass guitar that is not suited to the style of music being mixed, by default. So, yes, please high pass the bass and kick (and whatever else needs LF management...keyboards etc.) to suit the type of music you are mixing.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Dave Pluke on March 12, 2020, 11:44:32 am
On analog boards you had fixed HPF's. 80, 100 etc.

And, often, the Low EQ pot fixed at nearly the same frequency - which always confounded me.

Lots of good advice here.  I haven't seen anyone mention lavalier mics yet, though, which I tend to HP at slightly higher frequencies than handhelds.

Dave
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on March 12, 2020, 01:05:14 pm
This is good advice and one of those things that doesn't seem right on paper but holds up in live mixing. Certainly in some gym , barn, high reverb time venues.  (Depending on what is desired) It is easy to try and use if needed.
How's the Danley rig going? Any outdoor shows this summer?

Douglas R. Allen

First one coming up this weekend for St Paddys day - first time with both subs and I am excited. I promise I'll take pictures this time!
Apparently the downtown parade has been cancelled due to 'the virus' so our organizer is even more determined to have a successful event.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: John L Nobile on March 12, 2020, 01:17:34 pm

I haven't seen anyone mention lavalier mics yet, though, which I tend to HP at slightly higher frequencies than handhelds.

Dave

Yes. High enough to get rid of splosives and pops. Also a little higher for headset mics.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on March 12, 2020, 01:31:01 pm
I hate HPF'ing lav or headworn too high. With the lack of low end it sounds almost like they are screaming or shouting, when they are just speaking. It's more "piercing" and not very pleasant. When possible I run lavs or headsets through tops only. If it's for a commentator just for plain public announcements, I can run it higher as the intelligibility over distance is more important. But for a plain speech in controlled environment, not so much.

Everyone knows that lower frequencies travels further. But in a speaking situation.. more lows sound like they are closer to you, because they don't have to raise their voice in a natural speaking-situation. When someone is shouting to you from a distance, they are using the upper range in their voice, you don't hear as much lows.

In a setting like a corp event or something and the speaker is wearing a lav or headworn, I always try to make it sound like that person is close to me when speaking, not 20m away even though the speakers are 20m away from my position. I do that with lows.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Luke Geis on March 12, 2020, 03:54:30 pm
I have found good success with Hi-passing lavs in much the same way I mentioned before. As high up as I can till it sound thin and then back down till it just sounds natural. Err to the thin side to reduce plosives. I then run a compressor pre eq to finish dealing with plosives. You want a fairly high ratio around 4:1 or so and then you need it to be set for as fast of an attack as it will allow. The release also needs to be fast. Set the threshold so that it is almost always compressing a couple of db, but when a plosive goes in, it compresses 10db or more. You need it to release quickly so that the next word isn't compressed. If done right it will almost act as an auto leveler and really clamp down on the plosives. Because the compressor is set pre EQ, the low-end media during a plosive will dominate the level and trigger the compressor. The fast attack and release just clamp down on the offending level quickly and then return to normal just as quickly. The vocal will almost always have some small amount of compression, perhaps a couple to few db or so, but a well-controlled plosive will have 10db or more of compression. When done well, a plosive will be hard to tell was even there with minimal effect on the rest of the signal.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on March 12, 2020, 05:33:01 pm
First one coming up this weekend for St Paddys day - first time with both subs and I am excited. I promise I'll take pictures this time!
Apparently the downtown parade has been cancelled due to 'the virus' so our organizer is even more determined to have a successful event.

Have a good show and stay safe and healthy! Looking forward to a picture or two!
Douglas R. Allen
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Patrick Tracy on March 12, 2020, 09:01:50 pm
I've seen cut offs from 80 to 240 hz for lo cut filters on vocal mics.  I tend to use 100 to 120 hz for male and 120 -150 hz for female.  I was wondering what others like to use.

As needed.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on March 13, 2020, 03:00:32 am
Have a good show and stay safe and healthy! Looking forward to a picture or two!
Douglas R. Allen


I am heading out to meet the Dunkley's and check out the Danley's will let y'all know.  This is my first time hearing a Danley in the wild.



Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Luke Geis on March 13, 2020, 03:27:07 am
Nice Scott!!! Looking forward to the report.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on March 13, 2020, 03:36:55 am
Nice Scott!!! Looking forward to the report.


Thanks will do, wish that Debbie was actually performing her mixing/backup vocal roll but she is running for other acts.  I would have liked to have seen that.


I just checked in for my flight.  I am gold stats on AA and generally would never get an upgrade on a Friday flight.  It's only myself and one other passenger in first.  Freaky.



Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Chris Hindle on March 13, 2020, 08:35:38 am

Thanks will do, wish that Debbie was actually performing her mixing/backup vocal roll but she is running for other acts.  I would have liked to have seen that.


I just checked in for my flight.  I am gold stats on AA and generally would never get an upgrade on a Friday flight.  It's only myself and one other passenger in first.  Freaky.
Cheaper for them to pay you to use your own plane..... 8)
Chris.
Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on March 13, 2020, 03:10:17 pm
Cheaper for them to pay you to use your own plane..... 8)
Chris.


I wish I still had a medical.  Still working through some issues on that.  Been grounded for over a year. 



Title: Re: What freq do use for vocal locut?
Post by: Chris Hindle on March 14, 2020, 01:02:54 am

I wish I still had a medical.  Still working through some issues on that.  Been grounded for over a year.
Shit. Sorry to hear that Scott.
Tough to have clipped wings.
Hope you will get re-certified.

Best regards,
Chris.