ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Sam Costa on January 11, 2020, 03:21:02 pm

Title: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: Sam Costa on January 11, 2020, 03:21:02 pm
Are there a way to use the headphone output on iPads or tablets when mixing using digital rack consoles like Midas MR18, Soundcraft Ui24, etc? Sure would be a useful tool sometimes.
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: dave briar on January 11, 2020, 04:04:23 pm
Are there a way to use the headphone output on iPads or tablets when mixing using digital rack consoles like Midas MR18, Soundcraft Ui24, etc? Sure would be a useful tool sometimes.
That would be handy but my assumption is that most apps simply send/receive control sequences rather than audio. That said, MixingStation uses PAFL from the mixer to feed its RTA display but I知 not aware of a way to gain access to that audio.
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: Dave Garoutte on January 11, 2020, 05:26:55 pm
I just did a gig with my Ui24 where I ran the headphone outs into an IEM Tx.  The headphones into a belt pack Rx.  Worked great.  Full mobility.
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: Ed Hall on January 11, 2020, 09:19:42 pm
I just did a gig with my Ui24 where I ran the headphone outs into an IEM Tx.  The headphones into a belt pack Rx.  Worked great.  Full mobility.

This is exactly the idea I was just kicking around in my head for use with my X32 rack. Thanks for the proof of concept.

Did you delay the headphones to time align to your "FOH"?

Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: Lou Kohley on January 11, 2020, 09:47:18 pm
You can try Soundcaster.
I use it to have wireless cue.

You can run it on the ipad at the same time as the console control software.
You need a mac on the other end but I always have my laptop by the console.

LOU
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: Brian Jojade on January 11, 2020, 09:47:27 pm
The problem with using the headphone jack on the tablet is the latency of WIFi. While this would be less of an issue with running sound from FOH compared to a singer trying to use it, it seems as manufacturers simply haven't found it important or of high enough quality to put it into their products.

With WIFI 6, the latency issues should be solvable so maybe we'll start seeing this in the next few years.  It sure would be helpful!
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: Mike Caldwell on January 12, 2020, 12:35:50 am
This is exactly the idea I was just kicking around in my head for use with my X32 rack. Thanks for the proof of concept.

Did you delay the headphones to time align to your "FOH"?

That's exactly what I do with my A&H QU Pac when I know I'll be needing some quick handy PFL.

Along those same lines I use a wireless headset mic for talk back, for that I actually have the receiver mounted in the rack with the mixer.
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: Dave Garoutte on January 12, 2020, 04:09:35 pm
This is exactly the idea I was just kicking around in my head for use with my X32 rack. Thanks for the proof of concept.

Did you delay the headphones to time align to your "FOH"?

Tiny bar gig and way too loud from the stage, so I only needed to hear the soloed vocals to fiddle.
If I was in a proper venue I would look into that, but if you're walking around, any delay is only good at one distance anyway.
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: dave briar on January 13, 2020, 12:43:41 am
The problem with using the headphone jack on the tablet is the latency of WIFi. While this would be less of an issue with running sound from FOH compared to a singer trying to use it, it seems as manufacturers simply haven't found it important or of high enough quality to put it into their products.
Just curious, would you how much latency are we talking about?  My use case would be for walking around when I知 50-75ms/ft in front of the mains anyway. 
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: Scott Olewiler on January 13, 2020, 09:20:08 am
Just curious, would you how much latency are we talking about?  My use case would be for walking around when I知 50-75ms/ft in front of the mains anyway.

Latency aside, how would you  feed the headphone out on the iPad in the first place?  Granted, I've never actually checked it out(and I'm nowhere near a mixer to try) but to the best of my knowledge none of the mixing apps I've worked with send sound to the tablet output, do they?
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: Taylor Hall on January 13, 2020, 09:33:48 am
I know Behringer/Midas has an app that acts as an IEM feed for performers (X/M-32-Q) which might serve your purposes, but would take up routing space in the console.
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: Dan Richardson on January 13, 2020, 11:36:48 am
I know Behringer/Midas has an app that acts as an IEM feed for performers (X/M-32-Q) which might serve your purposes, but would take up routing space in the console.

Does what now? Q is just a limited control app.
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: Dan Richardson on January 13, 2020, 11:41:12 am
Just curious, would you how much latency are we talking about?  My use case would be for walking around when I知 50-75ms/ft in front of the mains anyway.

Apple's AirPlay, for instance, has a fixed latency of 2 full seconds. Better is certainly possible, but WIFI is not a reliable streaming protocol.
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: Taylor Hall on January 13, 2020, 11:45:44 am
Does what now? Q is just a limited control app.
Yeah, its designed as a performer-controlled monitoring app, it doesn't affect anything going out to the main LR. So if you wanted to listen in you could hop in that app, select your channel(s) and then hop back into your mixing app and go from there.
Not an ideal setup by any means, but I don't know of any other method of accomplishing this short of plugging some kind of BT or other wireless dongle into the console's headphone jack which opens its own can of worms...
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: brian maddox on January 13, 2020, 02:06:53 pm
Yeah, its designed as a performer-controlled monitoring app, it doesn't affect anything going out to the main LR. So if you wanted to listen in you could hop in that app, select your channel(s) and then hop back into your mixing app and go from there.
Not an ideal setup by any means, but I don't know of any other method of accomplishing this short of plugging some kind of BT or other wireless dongle into the console's headphone jack which opens its own can of worms...

The X32Q app does NOT pass audio to the control iOS device.  It is only for adjusting mixes
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: Russell Ault on January 13, 2020, 06:57:40 pm
Just curious, would you how much latency are we talking about?  My use case would be for walking around when I知 50-75ms/ft in front of the mains anyway.

As a point of reference, Wavetool (https://wavetool.fi/) (a very useful piece of theatre-oriented RF microphone monitoring software) offers audio streaming to iOS clients over Wi-Fi with configurable latency. My recollection is that the lowest setting is 50ms, which is pretty unstable even on decent wireless, so I tend to think of 100ms as a practical minimum latency over Wi-Fi for applications that are dropout-tolerant. Depends on what you're willing to put up with, of course.

-Russ
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: Ed Hall on January 13, 2020, 07:29:20 pm
Tiny bar gig and way too loud from the stage, so I only needed to hear the soloed vocals to fiddle.
If I was in a proper venue I would look into that, but if you're walking around, any delay is only good at one distance anyway.

After I hit Post I thought about it some more. In venues where this would be an option, delaying them would be unnecessary. Like you said its mostly blending vocals to the stage volume in a smaller area. If I'm in a venue where that would be a consideration I would have a proper FOH and console.
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: Keith Broughton on January 15, 2020, 05:36:36 am
For an iPad, you can use an Apple TV audio out connected to the input of the console.
Older versions of ATV can be had cheap.
I'm not sure the newer versions have a 3.5mm output, I think it's optical so a converter would be required.
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: Jerome Malsack on January 15, 2020, 09:24:33 am
I have been watching a tool called AudioFusion. 

Brandon Leafblad <leafblad@AUDIOFUSIONSYSTEMS.COM>
Tue 11/5/2019 7:31 PM
Hi Jerome,

We値l likely have to wait until after the Android version is out before we attack the Windows version.

So That All May Hear,

Brandon Leafblad
www.audiofusionsystems.com
+1-512-689-3667


This uses a macbook to setup and pass audio to an ipad or iphone to be used as IEM.   they are working on Android and hope to replace the macbook with an PC one day. 
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: brian maddox on January 15, 2020, 11:49:40 am
I have been watching a tool called AudioFusion. 

Brandon Leafblad <leafblad@AUDIOFUSIONSYSTEMS.COM>
Tue 11/5/2019 7:31 PM
Hi Jerome,

We値l likely have to wait until after the Android version is out before we attack the Windows version.

So That All May Hear,

Brandon Leafblad
www.audiofusionsystems.com
+1-512-689-3667


This uses a macbook to setup and pass audio to an ipad or iphone to be used as IEM.   they are working on Android and hope to replace the macbook with an PC one day.

I've been watching this too.

They're billing this as a IEM replacement, but i'm skeptical because of latency issues that are inherent in the WiFi protocol. But for use as a cueing system for a remote mixing situation, this may be just the thing.
Title: Re: Using headphone in iPad/tablets?
Post by: Brian Jojade on January 17, 2020, 01:48:37 pm
The latency in WIFI will depend on which type of WIFI you are using.  On a 2.4ghz connection, using WIFI 5, under best case scenarios, you're looking at least 50ms.  Add in any traffic on the network and that tight could cause you issue.  This is why Apple's Airplay has a 2 second buffer.  Obviously 2 seconds is unusable for live monitoring.

On a 5ghz WIFI 5 connection, you can get a workable latency under 10ms.  5ghz WIFI has a much lower jitter time than 2.4ghz, meaning the stream is more predictable.  This is hugely important for streaming purposes.

WIFI 6 promises even better latency, although it's only available on the newest devices.  Within the next year or two, I'm sure we'll start to see solutions over WIFI 6 for this sort of thing.