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Title: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 11, 2019, 06:18:44 pm
Reference: https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,172121.0.html

As you know, for the Danley system, I have chosen to use a 2 channel amp per side running stereo to be able to utilize the D snake as I did before with the SRX powered system. A lot of the shows will only require one sub but I still want to stick to stereo and keep the cabling tidy - nothing running across the stage. With the powered system it was easy with one sub as it had 2 channels - my stereo field is only really used for guitar and keys and to separate instruments that share the same frequency space.
Would I be best to run the sub separately from an aux and keep it mono ? Otherwise I'll only be sending only one side of the stereo field for everything under 90hz.

I only use the DSP in the Powersoft T602 amps - no other processing.
 
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Scott Holtzman on November 11, 2019, 06:21:58 pm
Reference: https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,172121.0.html

As you know, for the Danley system, I have chosen to use a 2 channel amp per side running stereo to be able to utilize the D snake as I did before with the SRX powered system. A lot of the shows will only require one sub but I still want to stick to stereo and keep the cabling tidy - nothing running across the stage. With the powered system it was easy with one sub as it had 2 channels - my stereo field is only really used for guitar and keys and to separate instruments that share the same frequency space.
Would I be best to run the sub separately from an aux and keep it mono ? Otherwise I'll only be sending only one side of the stereo field for everything under 90hz.

I only use the DSP in the Powersoft T602 amps - no other processing.

I read your question in the other post, and have read it again three times and I don't understand the question. 

The amp is still the central point, you have to cable back to the amp correct?  How does the D-Snake come into play?

From a theoretical standpoint there is no separation at LF as they are unidirectional, however there is LF content in both channels so if you have stereo sources they need to be summed to get a mono base feed. 
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: John Fruits on November 11, 2019, 06:26:34 pm
Congrats on the new supercool toys, ENJOY.  I must point out you could have called this thread "Debbie's Darling Danleys". 
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: brian maddox on November 11, 2019, 06:27:27 pm
Reference: https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,172121.0.html

As you know, for the Danley system, I have chosen to use a 2 channel amp per side running stereo to be able to utilize the D snake as I did before with the SRX powered system. A lot of the shows will only require one sub but I still want to stick to stereo and keep the cabling tidy - nothing running across the stage. With the powered system it was easy with one sub as it had 2 channels - my stereo field is only really used for guitar and keys and to separate instruments that share the same frequency space.
Would I be best to run the sub separately from an aux and keep it mono ? Otherwise I'll only be sending only one side of the stereo field for everything under 90hz.

I only use the DSP in the Powersoft T602 amps - no other processing.

I would use an Aux Send, but that's my preferred method regardless of circumstance. 

Does the DSP in the Amps provide a way to sum Left and Right inputs?  That would provide the same functionality you had before, if that's what you would prefer to do.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 11, 2019, 06:28:06 pm
Congrats on the new supercool toys, ENJOY.  I must point out you could have called this thread "Debbie's Darling Danleys".

ha ha  :D
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 11, 2019, 06:33:57 pm
I read your question in the other post, and have read it again three times and I don't understand the question. 

The amp is still the central point, you have to cable back to the amp correct?  How does the D-Snake come into play?

From a theoretical standpoint there is no separation at LF as they are unidirectional, however there is LF content in both channels so if you have stereo sources they need to be summed to get a mono base feed.

I have gotten used to placing the D snake opposite side of the stage to the mixer - mixer is usually on stage and I mix with iPad. Then of course I have easy access to input on that opposite side of the stage PLUS I can feed the opposite stack from the D snake too.
So I would like to do a similar thing now using the Danleys. Add to that I can place each PS amp stack side and not run cables across the stage. Each amp powers both sub and top each side. 

Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: brian maddox on November 11, 2019, 06:38:16 pm
I have gotten used to placing the D snake opposite side of the stage to the mixer - mixer is usually on stage and I mix with iPad. Then of course I have easy access to input on that opposite side of the stage PLUS I can feed the opposite stack from the D snake too.
So I would like to do a similar thing now using the Danleys. Add to that I can place each PS amp stack side and not run cables across the stage. Each amp powers both sub and top each side.

In this case, i'd use the mixer to "sum" the L and R as it's the simplest choice.  If you don't have matrices to do that with, then Aux fed subs are the next logical choice.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 11, 2019, 06:38:36 pm
I would use an Aux Send, but that's my preferred method regardless of circumstance. 

Does the DSP in the Amps provide a way to sum Left and Right inputs?  That would provide the same functionality you had before, if that's what you would prefer to do.

I am using each amp to power subs channel 1 and top channel 2 so I couldn't sum the channels using this method.
I can only think of 2 ways to do this:
1) Use aux for sub as I suggested before or 
2) Use Alt out (QU PAC mixer) assigning L&R summed to both outputs. This is a 1/4" though from the board BUT XLRM if I go from the D snake.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 11, 2019, 06:39:50 pm
In this case, i'd use the mixer to "sum" the L and R as it's the simplest choice.  If you don't have matrices to do that with, then Aux fed subs are the next logical choice.

LOL - I posted a few seconds after you Brian. Yes I think this is the logical choice.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 11, 2019, 06:59:29 pm
Next question - maybe Chris??

If I choose to send summed signal to one of the amps when using a single sub and want to retain stereo for the tops, then I would need to send 2 feeds that side - 1 aux to the sub and one side main to the top.
I currently have the DSP in the amps set up for one sub and top PER side and only need to input 1 channel from mixer/snake to each amp but both outputs then respond appropriately to feed sub and  top.

Would I now just turn up channel 2 input in Armonia software and program that set in the amp as a 'one sub configuration' preset?
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Dave Garoutte on November 11, 2019, 07:21:36 pm

If your left and right side amps each have two inputs, run L and R main feed to both inputs on each amp.
On the Right side, feed the right input through to the top, and sum the L&R to the sub.
On the Left side, feed the left input through to the top, and sum the L&R to the sub.
This will work for any situation; single sub on either side, or both subs.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Frank Koenig on November 11, 2019, 07:34:25 pm
If your left and right side amps each have two inputs, run L and R main feed to both inputs on each amp.
On the Right side, feed the right input through to the top, and sum the L&R to the sub.
On the Left side, feed the left input through to the top, and sum the L&R to the sub.
This will work for any situation; single sub on either side, or both subs.

Bingo! This is simple enough that even I could remember how it works from one gig to the next. The input matrix on the Powersofts makes it easy to configure. This is assuming you're OK with mono, and not aux-fed, subs. --Frank
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 11, 2019, 07:43:16 pm
If your left and right side amps each have two inputs, run L and R main feed to both inputs on each amp.
On the Right side, feed the right input through to the top, and sum the L&R to the sub.
On the Left side, feed the left input through to the top, and sum the L&R to the sub.
This will work for any situation; single sub on either side, or both subs.

Yes it would be nice to remain consistent in both amps that way.   I believe I need to make a change to the channel input section though as in the photo I provided. This was what Chris posted in the other thread as one of the steps to help me set the DSP so that I could use one channel only to feed both outputs. If I am needing to use both inputs per amp for the single sub configuration, then I will have to adjust those settings and save as a preset I guess..... if turning up channel 2 will prevent channel one from feeding both outputs when I need to use 2 subs then I'll need a separate pre set for the single sub configuration.
Either that or always run 2 inputs per amp regardless of 1 sub or 2 sub set up.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 11, 2019, 07:43:39 pm
Bingo! This is simple enough that even I could remember how it works from one gig to the next. The input matrix on the Powersofts makes it easy to configure. This is assuming you're OK with mono, and not aux-fed, subs. --Frank

Oh I didn't read it that way.... I need stereo tops.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Scott Holtzman on November 11, 2019, 08:32:58 pm
Oh I didn't read it that way.... I need stereo tops.

I don't know the QU, does it have a matrix function?  If it did I would send the L&R stereo to each side as discussed with a high pass as a last measure safety feature.  Then I would run on mono matrix for the sub.  I don't think the aux fed subs give you any real advantage, especially on smaller gigs.  You are already going to have a HPF on the inputs that don't feed require reinforcement of the subwoofers.

I also take it from your statement that the D-Snake has duplicate outputs of the QU?  So the matrix can appear on both sides?  The 1/4 is not an issue as long as it is TRS balanced and you remember to add a TRS to xlr to you standard pack.

Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 11, 2019, 09:32:05 pm
I don't know the QU, does it have a matrix function?  If it did I would send the L&R stereo to each side as discussed with a high pass as a last measure safety feature.  Then I would run on mono matrix for the sub.  I don't think the aux fed subs give you any real advantage, especially on smaller gigs.  You are already going to have a HPF on the inputs that don't feed require reinforcement of the subwoofers.

I also take it from your statement that the D-Snake has duplicate outputs of the QU?  So the matrix can appear on both sides?  The 1/4 is not an issue as long as it is TRS balanced and you remember to add a TRS to xlr to you standard pack.

Yes I can take from either the mixer or the D snake outputs - the snake has all XLR ins and outs. The mixer has all XLR other than TRS alt outs. I take TRS>XLRM and XLRF cables with me every show.


I do have a couple of matrices but only in stereo i believe.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Dave Garoutte on November 11, 2019, 09:43:30 pm
Yes it would be nice to remain consistent in both amps that way.   I believe I need to make a change to the channel input section though as in the photo I provided. This was what Chris posted in the other thread as one of the steps to help me set the DSP so that I could use one channel only to feed both outputs. If I am needing to use both inputs per amp for the single sub configuration, then I will have to adjust those settings and save as a preset I guess..... if turning up channel 2 will prevent channel one from feeding both outputs when I need to use 2 subs then I'll need a separate pre set for the single sub configuration.
Either that or always run 2 inputs per amp regardless of 1 sub or 2 sub set up.

Yes, always 2 inputs to each side.  This makes it so you don't have to change ANYTHING to run any of your sub configurations.
It gives you stereo tops and mono subs, in any setup.
No matrix, no aux fed, just L&R feeds to both amps.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 11, 2019, 10:07:38 pm
Yes, always 2 inputs to each side.  This makes it so you don't have to change ANYTHING to run any of your sub configurations.
It gives you stereo tops and mono subs, in any setup.
No matrix, no aux fed, just L&R feeds to both amps.

I think I'm a little confused. I've got to get the mono summed feeds to the subs from somewhere so I need to use aux or alt outs - no? Also L& R feeds to BOTH amps? yes ... I am confused - my brain hurts now.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Scott Holtzman on November 11, 2019, 10:21:07 pm
I think I'm a little confused. I've got to get the mono summed feeds to the subs from somewhere so I need to use aux or alt outs - no? Also L& R feeds to BOTH amps? yes ... I am confused - my brain hurts now.

That's why I asked you if that board has a matrix.  The matrix would do the summing then you route the matrix to your output.

Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: brian maddox on November 11, 2019, 10:45:10 pm
I think I'm a little confused. I've got to get the mono summed feeds to the subs from somewhere so I need to use aux or alt outs - no? Also L& R feeds to BOTH amps? yes ... I am confused - my brain hurts now.

So what you're doing is feeding L and R to the two inputs on the Powersoft.  Then in the DSP of the Amp you're telling it to sum those two inputs and output that signal to your sub channel and take Only input 1 for your Left top [or input 2 for Right] and feed that out of the second amp channel to your tops.

I wasn't sure that the PowerSoft could mix it's inputs but apparently you can, so this is a good simple solution.  If you decide you want to run stereo subs on a gig, it's just a routing change in your amps which i presume have presets for exactly this kind of situation....
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Dave Garoutte on November 12, 2019, 12:10:18 pm
I think I'm a little confused. I've got to get the mono summed feeds to the subs from somewhere so I need to use aux or alt outs - no? Also L& R feeds to BOTH amps? yes ... I am confused - my brain hurts now.

I made the assumption (no research) that you could sum the L&R in the input routing of the amp.  It takes about two seconds in the DNA amps.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Mike Pyle on November 12, 2019, 01:10:47 pm
Debbie,

In Armonia, or through the amp's front panel interface, you would go to the "Matrix" function in the Config menu. Select the amp channel that you want to sum inputs for, then turn both analog 1 and analog 2 inputs up for that channel. The channel that is NOT using summed inputs would have only analog 1 (left) or analog 2 (right) turned up for stereo input.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Nathan Riddle on November 12, 2019, 01:55:52 pm
I made the assumption (no research) that you could sum the L&R in the input routing of the amp.  It takes about two seconds in the DNA amps.

You can.
Config > Input > Ch. Settings > [Make analog first]
Config > Matrix > Ch. 2 (sub) > [analog 2 level up]

... Mike beat me to it.

This is the easiest thing to do IMO.

Stage Right (house left)
mixer_L-out > T602(Left)_Ch1 > Main L

Stage Left (house right)
mixer_R-out > T602(Right)_Ch1 > Main R
mixer_L-out > T602(Right)_Ch2 > Sub (summed R & L)

Same deal for sub on house left.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Scott Holtzman on November 12, 2019, 04:02:49 pm
You can.
Config > Input > Ch. Settings > [Make analog first]
Config > Matrix > Ch. 2 (sub) > [analog 2 level up]

... Mike beat me to it.

This is the easiest thing to do IMO.

Stage Right (house left)
mixer_L-out > T602(Left)_Ch1 > Main L

Stage Left (house right)
mixer_R-out > T602(Right)_Ch1 > Main R
mixer_L-out > T602(Right)_Ch2 > Sub (summed R & L)

Same deal for sub on house left.

Guys, it needs to be summed in the mixer, she has 1 amp per side and wants to run aux fed.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 12, 2019, 05:28:55 pm
That's why I asked you if that board has a matrix.  The matrix would do the summing then you route the matrix to your output.

My metrices are only stereo.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Scott Holtzman on November 12, 2019, 05:34:33 pm
My metrices are only stereo.

So what are the options of summing two channels in the QU?

Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 12, 2019, 05:44:23 pm
So what are the options of summing two channels in the QU?

The 2 ways I indicated in reply #7. Uisng either a mono aux or summing left and right to ALT out.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Mike Pyle on November 12, 2019, 05:45:01 pm
I thought she wanted aux fed only if it were essential, which it's not.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: John Sulek on November 12, 2019, 05:50:33 pm
Guys, it needs to be summed in the mixer, she has 1 amp per side and wants to run aux fed.

One two channel amp per side which has an input routing matrix in the dsp.
Seems easiest to me to do this at the amp (with less chance of the sum level at the mixer getting inadvertently bumped up or down)Ö.unless you really want aux fed.
Could make another amp preset for aux fed if you want to try that option.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 12, 2019, 06:12:29 pm
Maybe I haven't explained things well - I don't know but this is what I'm going to do unless anyone has a better idea KEEPING a two channel amp each side of the stage powering both a top and a sub each.

I will assign mono summing to both ALT out on the mixer and an output in my D Snake. Then, when I run one sub at a show, on that side I can connect 1 for mono sub and the other for L or R top and connect only one to the top on the side with no sub.
I can then use the same set up when I run 2 subs by using both the ALT out on the mixer and the L+R output in the D snake and then run 2 XLR's per side.

My other option is still aux sub but I'll see how this works for me to start.

My only question at this point is about the channel gain settings on the amps as I mentioned before.
Right now using  left to one amp and right to the other means I have the channel input side set to feed both output channels from channel 1 by having channel 1 gain up full and channel 2 gain off.
Now I need to set the channel input gains so input 1 feeds output 1 and 2 feeds 2.
Do I just turn up channel 2 input like channel 1?
This might sound stupid but I'm just making sure....

Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Robert Lunceford on November 12, 2019, 06:34:45 pm
Maybe I haven't explained things well - I don't know but this is what I'm going to do unless anyone has a better idea KEEPING a two channel amp each side of the stage powering both a top and a sub each.

I will assign mono summing to both ALT out on the mixer and an output in my D Snake. Then, when I run one sub at a show, on that side I can connect 1 for mono sub and the other for L or R top and connect only one to the top on the side with no sub.
I can then use the same set up when I run 2 subs by using both the ALT out on the mixer and the L+R output in the D snake and then run 2 XLR's per side.

My other option is still aux sub but I'll see how this works for me to start.

My only question at this point is about the channel gain settings on the amps as I mentioned before.
Right now using  left to one amp and right to the other means I have the channel input side set to feed both output channels from channel 1 by having channel 1 gain up full and channel 2 gain off.
Now I need to set the channel input gains so input 1 feeds output 1 and 2 feeds 2.
Do I just turn up channel 2 input like channel 1?
This might sound stupid but I'm just making sure....

I believe that the ALT OUT on the QU does not follow the master fader, it has it's own independent level control. Also, I don't believe you can adjust the ALT OUT level via iPad. As others have suggested, using the channel summing feature in the power amps will be the most elegant solution.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on November 12, 2019, 06:55:40 pm
My metrices are only stereo.

For a mono sub wouldn't it be easier to use 1 amp setup for processing the tops with the other amp for the single sub configured to mono a Y off the first amps L/R outs and setup for the sub?  Just have both power amps setup on 1 side. Your running 1 sub so have it on that side or center of stage. Most it would take is 1 long Speakon to feed the SM80 on the other side. I don't know what the amps can do but maybe even bridge the sub amp if it will still mono the L/R inputs.
Store the configuration so you'll have it when you need to do this.
Douglas R. Allen
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 12, 2019, 07:00:52 pm
I believe that the ALT OUT on the QU does not follow the master fader, it has it's own independent level control. Also, I don't believe you can adjust the ALT OUT level via iPad. As others have suggested, using the channel summing feature in the power amps will be the most elegant solution.

Alt out DOES follow master fader as well as having an independent level control. I have used it this way many times.
I cannot use summing in the  amps because I am using channel 1 for sub and channel 2 for top in each amp. I don't want summed mono for the tops.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 12, 2019, 07:05:46 pm
For a mono sub wouldn't it be easier to use 1 amp setup for processing the tops with the other amp for the single sub configured to mono a Y off the first amps L/R outs and setup for the sub?  Just have both power amps setup on 1 side. Your running 1 sub so have it on that side or center of stage. Most it would take is 1 long Speakon to feed the SM80 on the other side. I don't know what the amps can do but maybe even bridge the sub amp if it will still mono the L/R inputs.
Store the configuration so you'll have it when you need to do this.
Douglas R. Allen

That is an option but I want to stick to my plan of keeping my Speakon cables short and not crossing the stage, placing an amp per side next to the speaker stacks and being able to utilize my D snake to output the side opposite my mixer.
I used to run my passive SRX system using all amps in one rack - 1 amp for subs, 1 amp for tops but I am doing things a little differently this time.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Scott Holtzman on November 12, 2019, 07:11:39 pm
That is an option but I want to stick to my plan of keeping my Speakon cables short and not crossing the stage, placing an amp per side next to the speaker stacks and being able to utilize my D snake to output the side opposite my mixer.
I used to run my passive SRX system using all amps in one rack - 1 amp for subs, 1 amp for tops but I am doing things a little differently this time.

With all those factors I would just use the crossovers in the amp and run the rig in stereo.  As I mentioned earlier I am sure you have all your inputs high passed appropriately to keep the mud out of your mix so the aux fed some seems like a diminishing return once this entire picture is factored in.

Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Mike Pyle on November 12, 2019, 07:19:19 pm
Alt out DOES follow master fader as well as having an independent level control. I have used it this way many times.
I cannot use summing in the  amps because I am using channel 1 for sub and channel 2 for top in each amp. I don't want summed mono for the tops.

You are misunderstanding the way the matrix in the amp works. If you have a left and right xlr feeding each amp, then the matrix lets you use EITHER input solely for the channel powering the top and BOTH inputs for the channel powering the sub. That means that you can have mono summing for the subs AND left/right stereo for the tops using one amp per side.

You would still probably want to create a preset for this as your summed inputs will have to be set to the correct gain for system balance.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Mac Kerr on November 12, 2019, 07:20:12 pm
That is an option but I want to stick to my plan of keeping my Speakon cables short and not crossing the stage, placing an amp per side next to the speaker stacks and being able to utilize my D snake to output the side opposite my mixer.
I used to run my passive SRX system using all amps in one rack - 1 amp for subs, 1 amp for tops but I am doing things a little differently this time.

Can you not just run the mono sub on aux feed out of 2 connectors, one SR and one SL? You would have R+sub come out of your stage box, and L+sub come out of the console itself?

Mac
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 12, 2019, 07:31:32 pm
You are misunderstanding the way the matrix in the amp works. If you have a left and right xlr feeding each amp, then the matrix lets you use EITHER input solely for the channel powering the top and BOTH inputs for the channel powering the sub. That means that you can have mono summing for the subs AND left/right stereo for the tops using one amp per side.

You would still probably want to create a preset for this as your summed inputs will have to be set to the correct gain for system balance.

Thanks for explaining that Mike. I'll look into  it- still not really clear on it right now.
Looks like I'd use 2 XLRs per side using either method - either summing in the amp or taking a summed L & R from the D snake or the mixer ALT out.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 12, 2019, 07:33:06 pm
Can you not just run the mono sub on aux feed out of 2 connectors, one SR and one SL? You would have R+sub come out of your stage box, and L+sub come out of the console itself?

Mac

I'm trying to choose the best method when only using one single sub.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Mac Kerr on November 12, 2019, 07:39:09 pm
I'm trying to choose the best method when only using one single sub.

It would remain the same, you just wouldn't run the sub feed to one side, or you would, but not deploy the sub.

Mac
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Dave Garoutte on November 12, 2019, 07:50:12 pm
I'm trying to choose the best method when only using one single sub.
That's what my configuration was for.
I think you are over thinking this; it's actually fairly straight forward.
Just L and R sends, no aux sub.

Run full range left and right channel into the A and B inputs of both your amps.
Use the internal crossovers for the outputs for tops and subs.
On the left amp, the left channel goes to the top. (L to L)
On the right amp, the right channel goes to the top. (R to R)
On both amps, the left and right channels are summed internally and sent to the sub with the other output channel than the tops. (L+R to sub).

You will get stereo mains and mono subs, whether you are running one sub on either side or two subs.
You would mute the sub out you aren't using.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 12, 2019, 08:03:54 pm
That's what my configuration was for.
I think you are over thinking this; it's actually fairly straight forward.
Just L and R sends, no aux sub.

Run full range left and right channel into the A and B inputs of both your amps.
Use the internal crossovers for the outputs for tops and subs.
On the left amp, the left channel goes to the top. (L to L)
On the right amp, the right channel goes to the top. (R to R)
On both amps, the left and right channels are summed internally and sent to the sub with the other output channel than the tops. (L+R to sub).

You will get stereo mains and mono subs, whether you are running one sub on either side or two subs.
You would mute the sub out you aren't using.

Thanks Dave....I see that now.
Couldn't get my head around it - maybe I needed a diagram....
Or maybe it is because  I had to make the decision to have my little 13 year old dog go to sleep today and I am not thinking clearly - it has been a very very sad day for our family.
I'm super cut up right now and wanted to distract myself by thinking about my rig - sorry I should have understood this earlier..
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Dave Garoutte on November 12, 2019, 09:14:49 pm
Thanks Dave....I see that now.
Couldn't get my head around it - maybe I needed a diagram....
Or maybe it is because  I had to make the decision to have my little 13 year old dog go to sleep today and I am not thinking clearly - it has been a very very sad day for our family.
I'm super cut up right now and wanted to distract myself by thinking about my rig - sorry I should have understood this earlier..

 :( :( :'(
So sorry.  It sucks losing a pet.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Bob Faulkner on November 12, 2019, 09:36:59 pm
Thanks Dave....I see that now.
Couldn't get my head around it - maybe I needed a diagram....
Or maybe it is because  I had to make the decision to have my little 13 year old dog go to sleep today and I am not thinking clearly - it has been a very very sad day for our family.
I'm super cut up right now and wanted to distract myself by thinking about my rig - sorry I should have understood this earlier..
Sorry to see this Debbie... I understand.  It is one of the most stressful decisions some of us have to make. 
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Nathan Riddle on November 12, 2019, 09:39:59 pm
Thanks Dave....I see that now.
Couldn't get my head around it - maybe I needed a diagram....
Or maybe it is because  I had to make the decision to have my little 13 year old dog go to sleep today and I am not thinking clearly - it has been a very very sad day for our family.
I'm super cut up right now and wanted to distract myself by thinking about my rig - sorry I should have understood this earlier..

Debbie, sorry for the loss.

If distractions are helpful then we're here to help.

But by all means; put this on the back burner if it feels necessary.

All the best,
Nathan


That's what my configuration was for.
I think you are over thinking this; it's actually fairly straight forward.
Just L and R sends, no aux sub.

Run full range left and right channel into the A and B inputs of both your amps.
Use the internal crossovers for the outputs for tops and subs.
On the left amp, the left channel goes to the top. (L to L)
On the right amp, the right channel goes to the top. (R to R)
On both amps, the left and right channels are summed internally and sent to the sub with the other output channel than the tops. (L+R to sub).

You will get stereo mains and mono subs, whether you are running one sub on either side or two subs.
You would mute the sub out you aren't using.

^^ this is what I was trying to get at earlier.

Except forgo the 4 cables constantly. You only need two cables when running stereo.
You need 3 cables when running one sub.

If I'm thinking this through properly...
This actually works out well as you don't need multiple presets or to even think about maintaining sub/top ratio.
The +6dB gained from summing L+R makes up for the loss of the 2nd sub.

It becomes automatic.
No messing with console settings or summing the alt outs.
No aux subs.
No 100ballion presets.
KISSaint

In Armonia+
Config > Input > Ch. Settings > [Make analog first]
Config > Matrix > Ch. 2 (sub) > [analog 2 level up]

Single sub:
Stage Right (house left)
mixer_L-out > T602(Left)_Ch1 > Main L

Stage Left (house right)
mixer_R-out > T602(Right)_Ch1 > Main R
mixer_L-out > T602(Right)_Ch2 > Sub (summed R & L)

Stereo Subs:
Stage Right (house left)
mixer_L-out > T602(Left)_Ch1 > Main L + Sub L

Stage Left (house right)
mixer_R-out > T602(Right)_Ch1 > Main R + Sub R
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Robert Lunceford on November 13, 2019, 01:41:32 am
Have you considered running a single PRX sub with the SM80s for your smaller jobs?
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Paul Miller on November 13, 2019, 05:05:10 am
Debbie I'm so sorry you had to put your dog to sleep. This Danley business can wait, just take care of yourself. I'll be keeping you and little doggo Dunkley in my thoughts.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Scott Olewiler on November 13, 2019, 09:07:12 am
With all those factors I would just use the crossovers in the amp and run the rig in stereo.  As I mentioned earlier I am sure you have all your inputs high passed appropriately to keep the mud out of your mix so the aux fed some seems like a diminishing return once this entire picture is factored in.
I agree with the Scott's assessment of diminishing returns on all of this.

Debbie,

Understanding your desire to not lose any content when only using one sub, but are you actually panning anything that has a lot of sub content in it in the first place? Except for a stereo keyboard, or pre recorded stuff; I don't see that you're really going to lose much sonically only using one sub in a stereo configuration.

I'm thinking that most things that are typically panned would be high passed enough to either not be in the subs, or in the case of small room;  where you typically would be only using one sub aren't in the FOH enough to notice, like drums.

Before you get too complicated and start running all these addition cables to your amps you might want to set up your next gig in stereo, then try try turning off one sub in the stereo configuration,of course  turning  it up to compensate for the lost volume and then see what you're actually losing sonically.

Depending how you typically set you HPFs, you may find you're not losing anything.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 13, 2019, 09:55:15 am
I agree with the Scott's assessment of diminishing returns on all of this.

Debbie,

Understanding your desire to not lose any content when only using one sub, but are you actually panning anything that has a lot of sub content in it in the first place? Except for a stereo keyboard, or pre recorded stuff; I don't see that you're really going to lose much sonically only using one sub in a stereo configuration.

I'm thinking that most things that are typically panned would be high passed enough to either not be in the subs, or in the case of small room;  where you typically would be only using one sub aren't in the FOH enough to notice, like drums.

Before you get too complicated and start running all these addition cables to your amps you might want to set up your next gig in stereo, then try try turning off one sub in the stereo configuration,of course  turning  it up to compensate for the lost volume and then see what you're actually losing sonically.

Depending how you typically set you HPFs, you may find you're not losing anything.

Thanks Scott - good idea and good points.  That would be an easy and fast test for me - will do.


BTW - Thank you everyone for all the kind comments regarding my sweet little Bella. She certainly stole my heart.
I have owned dogs and cats all my life and have loved and still love each and every single one of them but sometimes one takes all of your heart - Bella was the one.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: John Sulek on November 13, 2019, 11:57:53 am
Sorry to hear about the loss of your beloved dog.

When you feel up to being distracted by gear...
One other benefit of doing the sub signal summing internally in the amps is that you would still have your alt output free for record/delay/etc.
Dave's pencil cad drawing is the best explanation yet.
No extra cabling required, as no matter how you do this (summed at mixer/aux fed/summed at amps), there will be two signal cables required to each amp. With your D snake and console on opposite sides they are just short jumpers.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Eric Snodgrass on November 13, 2019, 01:42:19 pm
Doing it internally in the amp, with summing the L/R signal to the sub channel, seems to defeat the purpose of Aux-fed subs, since at that point every input channel being sent to the top will still be sent to the sub anyway. 
Deb, you still have to send two channels to each amp.  Just use a mono Aux out on the SQ (or QuPac) as you sub feed.  Use the Local output on the console to feed the sub channel on the closer amp and assign that same Aux output to one of the outs on the dSnake box to feed the sub channel on the far amp.  Then you can dial in the channels you want to go to the subs on that Aux mix. 
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 13, 2019, 02:13:56 pm
Well I am drowning myself in gear/ music / software today to stay distracted - I've cried too much so I gotta get back on track. Sorry to share so much guys....and again thank you for your support.

Anyway, I am playing with Armonia right now checking out what I can do there.
I have created a new preset with what I believe gets me the inputs set for 2 channels per amp leaving the presets I already have which I had previously set for 1 XLR input to 2 outputs in stereo per amp.
So now I just have to find out how to sum mono the TH118 side in Armonia if I go the route of summing in the amp.
If I stick with mono sum from the mixer then I'm good to go that way as I have assigned a mono feed from both mixer and D Snake.
If I go with aux subs then I'm set that way too using the same cabling. I do have all my HP filters set on each channel as Scott mentioned earlier so aux sub might not benefit me much but is still an option.

As well as the 3 different ways to sum mono when using the single sub, as have been covered,  there is also the other suggestion made earlier by simply leaving the sub/s to run stereo and when removing one sub, checking out if there is any noticeable material missing below 90hz.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: David Allred on November 13, 2019, 03:23:32 pm
Do "smaller" shows also mean a vehicle not capable of carrying the 2nd sub? 
And... does a "smaller" show mean that there is physically no room for the 2nd sub?
If the answer to both is NO, why not use both subs and avoid all this configuration headache? 
Except for extreme circumstance (long load in/out distances or stairs), total time increase of what... 5 mins?
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 13, 2019, 04:25:41 pm
Do "smaller" shows also mean a vehicle not capable of carrying the 2nd sub? 
And... does a "smaller" show mean that there is physically no room for the 2nd sub?
If the answer to both is NO, why not use both subs and avoid all this configuration headache? 
Except for extreme circumstance (long load in/out distances or stairs), total time increase of what... 5 mins?

Mainly the second scenario really - although getting 2 TH118's in the van wouldn't work so well either so we'd have to take the trailer with us and sometimes that is problematic - parking etc. Sometimes we take 2 vehicles to local shows because it is easier to park them than a trailer.
We have always 'scaled' to the show but to be honest, if using one sub was going to cause a real headache then your suggestion of using both would be the obvious solution. However,  the configurations presented are so easy to carry out, that it seems silly to bring an extra  160lb sub to a show that doesn't require it. Adding one XLR cable to the set up is a much easier option than adding the second TH118.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Brian c Thomas on November 14, 2019, 05:28:20 pm
Not sure of your van size, but I have fit 4x TH118 and 2x SM80 in a rather compact Astrovan when needed.  Itís tight, but they do fit in some small spaces.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Dave Garoutte on November 14, 2019, 10:40:09 pm
Not sure of your van size, but I have fit 4x TH118 and 2x SM80 in a rather compact Astrovan when needed.  Itís tight, but they do fit in some small spaces.

But she brings the rest of the PA and the band!
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 14, 2019, 10:49:10 pm
But she brings the rest of the PA and the band!

Yes - pretty much!!!..
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 24, 2019, 09:39:52 am
Used it last night - one sub config. I must have looked such an idiot with a pathetic huge grin across my face the whole night.
It wasn't the biggest of venues so I had to keep my levels lower than I wanted to - I so wanted to let rip! 4 piece rock band - vocals, guitar, bass and drums.

I set the T602's at 0db sub and -12db top for system balance which was where I had it set at my house but once I started playing canned music through the system I  immediately realized that Chris Grimshaw in my last thread was spot on and I needed to be at 0db/-6db for perfect balance.

My first thoughts?.... That TH118 has to be the most musical, clean, defined sub I have ever heard. Kick and bass sounded so good.  I could hear every single note played under 100hz even from the MP3 break music tracks.
It made me realize the subs I had been using had a 'wishy washy' sound to them lacking in definition. The SRX818 and SRX828 are very good subs and most certainly the best I'd used till now but the TH118 is a level above.
The SM80's sounded clean and smooth.  I think I got my amp preset EQ's pretty close to where they need to be - I used a combination of the info provided to me by the helpful peeps here and tweaked to my own liking. The EQ ended up being a slightly modified version of the recommended Danley settings that Mike gave me.
The horns didn't sound harsh at all and I was able to get vocals and guitar to cut through pretty well but stay warm and rich.

The place was thumping and I loved it!...... I won't need to use the second sub for while due to the next few shows being smallish venues but that will be an experience for sure.
The overall level was about the same as what it would have been on my powered system with the master fader on the mixer sitting at 0db.

Setup was a breeze and I am so happy I chose the method I did with keeping each amp stack side and using longer XLR's than Speakons. I had the amp rack on the sub side of the stage placed just behind the sub facing out - out of the way but easily accessible to me if I needed to make any changes. The other rack just stood by the wall on the other side next to the speaker tripod.

I love the recessed Speakon inputs on the SM80's - it keeps the cable looking so neat and tidy.
I got a couple of 90 degree speakon plugs for the TH118's so the cable lays flat against the cab - less strain at the Speakon and doesn't stick out.

I used a 20" sub pole - the speaker could have been a little higher but 20" is about the highest we can lift without using a ladder and in a bar/small club it was enough.

So first time out - very happy indeed. Now I need a good sized venue, both subs, turn up and let her go!!!

Ooh - a couple more things I almost forgot.
I had zero problems with the sound bouncing around even though the room wasn't the best. The system made it easier to 'contain'  the sound.
Also one of the things that always has to be consideration for me is because I use a headset mic to sing, sometimes depending on where I am positioned to mix, I can get a little high frequency feedback - didn't happen last night at all.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: John Halliburton on November 24, 2019, 11:13:44 am

My first thoughts?.... That TH118 has to be the most musical, clean, defined sub I have ever heard. Kick and bass sounded so good.  I could hear every single note played under 100hz even from the MP3 break music tracks.
It made me realize the subs I had been using had a 'wishy washy' sound to them lacking in definition. The SRX818 and SRX828 are very good subs and most certainly the best I'd used till now but the TH118 is a level above.
The SM80's sounded clean and smooth.  I think I got my amp preset EQ's pretty close to where they need to be - I used a combination of the info provided to me by the helpful peeps here and tweaked to my own liking. The EQ ended up being a slightly modified version of the recommended Danley settings that Mike gave me.
The horns didn't sound harsh at all and I was able to get vocals and guitar to cut through pretty well but stay warm and rich.

I love the recessed Speakon inputs on the SM80's - it keeps the cable looking so neat and tidy.
I got a couple of 90 degree speakon plugs for the TH118's so the cable lays flat against the cab - less strain at the Speakon and doesn't stick out.

I used a 20" sub pole - the speaker could have been a little higher but 20" is about the highest we can lift without using a ladder and in a bar/small club it was enough.

Ooh - a couple more things I almost forgot.
I had zero problems with the sound bouncing around even though the room wasn't the best. The system made it easier to 'contain'  the sound.
Also one of the things that always has to be consideration for me is because I use a headset mic to sing, sometimes depending on where I am positioned to mix, I can get a little high frequency feedback - didn't happen last night at all.

Exactly.  I've been telling folks these things for years.  Better sound, easier work for the engineer.  I just demo'd a pair of SH95 I have to the Irish pub I'm house engineer at, looking to replace the 20 year old Bag End TA12xx cabinets there.  Set them up on stands right next to those, and had my TH Mini subs on the floor in between coupled.

Needless to say, the difference was night and day.  The house sub is a single 15" Eminence driver I designed and built years ago(so you know it was better than they usual stuff. ;D), but the difference in kick and bass playing was very evident, let alone with the difference in the tops.

Best regards,

John

Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on November 24, 2019, 02:47:23 pm
Used it last night - one sub config. I must have looked such an idiot with a pathetic huge grin across my face the whole night.
It wasn't the biggest of venues so I had to keep my levels lower than I wanted to - I so wanted to let rip! 4 piece rock band - vocals, guitar, bass and drums.

I set the T602's at 0db sub and -12db top for system balance which was where I had it set at my house but once I started playing canned music through the system I  immediately realized that Chris Grimshaw in my last thread was spot on and I needed to be at 0db/-6db for perfect balance.

My first thoughts?.... That TH118 has to be the most musical, clean, defined sub I have ever heard. Kick and bass sounded so good.  I could hear every single note played under 100hz even from the MP3 break music tracks.
It made me realize the subs I had been using had a 'wishy washy' sound to them lacking in definition. The SRX818 and SRX828 are very good subs and most certainly the best I'd used till now but the TH118 is a level above.
The SM80's sounded clean and smooth.  I think I got my amp preset EQ's pretty close to where they need to be - I used a combination of the info provided to me by the helpful peeps here and tweaked to my own liking. The EQ ended up being a slightly modified version of the recommended Danley settings that Mike gave me.
The horns didn't sound harsh at all and I was able to get vocals and guitar to cut through pretty well but stay warm and rich.

The place was thumping and I loved it!...... I won't need to use the second sub for while due to the next few shows being smallish venues but that will be an experience for sure.
The overall level was about the same as what it would have been on my powered system with the master fader on the mixer sitting at 0db.

Setup was a breeze and I am so happy I chose the method I did with keeping each amp stack side and using longer XLR's than Speakons. I had the amp rack on the sub side of the stage placed just behind the sub facing out - out of the way but easily accessible to me if I needed to make any changes. The other rack just stood by the wall on the other side next to the speaker tripod.

I love the recessed Speakon inputs on the SM80's - it keeps the cable looking so neat and tidy.
I got a couple of 90 degree speakon plugs for the TH118's so the cable lays flat against the cab - less strain at the Speakon and doesn't stick out.

I used a 20" sub pole - the speaker could have been a little higher but 20" is about the highest we can lift without using a ladder and in a bar/small club it was enough.

So first time out - very happy indeed. Now I need a good sized venue, both subs, turn up and let her go!!!

Ooh - a couple more things I almost forgot.
I had zero problems with the sound bouncing around even though the room wasn't the best. The system made it easier to 'contain'  the sound.
Also one of the things that always has to be consideration for me is because I use a headset mic to sing, sometimes depending on where I am positioned to mix, I can get a little high frequency feedback - didn't happen last night at all.

I believe this to be fake news. Not a picture in sight!  ;D ;D  Glad you like the new system. Now that you've had your first night on them do you still feel you need a B system and will want to go out with it?  How was the Coaxial Tops. Sound different or close enough to what you had that it didn't take much to get where you wanted to be? Keep the reports coming if you have the time!
Douglas R. Allen
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 24, 2019, 03:33:20 pm
I believe this to be fake news. Not a picture in sight!  ;D ;D  Glad you like the new system. Now that you've had your first night on them do you still feel you need a B system and will want to go out with it?  How was the Coaxial Tops. Sound different or close enough to what you had that it didn't take much to get where you wanted to be? Keep the reports coming if you have the time!
Douglas R. Allen

Aaahhh.... I'm not much of a picture taker but I so wish I had - darn!

Anyway.... I've got the DZR's coming and I know I can put them to good use ... however, I am more tempted to use the single Danley system where I can in smaller venues in place of a compact power system.

The SM80 tops do sound quite different to the SRX812's or DSR112's. I noticed the lack of a horn to my ears but not in a bad way - there were no real missing frequencies in the upper frequencies - just different.
I will need to do some tweaking once I get into a bigger room.
I did spend a bit of time over the evening making sure to get vocals and guitar to cut through the mix - not so much the cymbals as they could also cut through acoustically.
It's all matter of getting used to the sound of the Danleys and not trying to emulate the speakers I have been used to for so long.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 25, 2019, 09:47:26 am

The overall level was about the same as what it would have been on my powered system with the master fader on the mixer sitting at 0db.


That is an often used type of statement, but has little to no actual meaning.

The only thing that was comparable was the total gain was the same for a particular SPL.  The output capability could be totally different.

That could easily change either way simply by adding or removing gain from one system.

I have seen sales guys use amps with a higher gain as having "louder watts".  NO, just the sensitivity was different on the amps.

I will say that at least it gives you an idea of "where to start".  But remember that you should be able to turn it up more and get greater output, when you get into a larger space.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Dave Garoutte on November 25, 2019, 11:51:59 am
It's shocking how loud and clean this system will get. ;D
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: John L Nobile on November 25, 2019, 12:07:02 pm
It's shocking how loud and clean this system will get. ;D

+1

And so easy to deploy.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 25, 2019, 01:00:37 pm
That is an often used type of statement, but has little to no actual meaning.

The only thing that was comparable was the total gain was the same for a particular SPL.  The output capability could be totally different.

That could easily change either way simply by adding or removing gain from one system.

I have seen sales guys use amps with a higher gain as having "louder watts".  NO, just the sensitivity was different on the amps.

I will say that at least it gives you an idea of "where to start".  But remember that you should be able to turn it up more and get greater output, when you get into a larger space.

I was referring to where I had the amps set at 0db /-6db that Chris had suggested. It basically gave me exactly the levels I would have expected if I had used my usual powered set up at 0db tops/ whatever 3 o'clock means on a PRX718 sub.
Of course I am looking forward to  getting the whole system up in a bigger place and pushing the amps a bit more for overall volume.
THEN - and only then - will I be happy ......mwahahahahahahahaha......
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Dave Garoutte on November 25, 2019, 08:43:14 pm
......mwahahahahahahahaha......
LOL
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Kemper Watson on November 26, 2019, 07:50:09 am
It's shocking how loud and clean this system will get. ;D

Most first time bands look at my rig and tell me they are going to supplement it with something they have brought. At that point I bring up program material to half and have them stand 50 ft out. Then we walk out another 75-100 feet. Then I turn it up to the last green light. It freaks a lot of them out.. 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: John Halliburton on November 26, 2019, 08:46:24 am
+1

And so easy to deploy.

+2, +3, +4, etc. To both "loud and clear", and "easy to deploy".

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Dave Garoutte on November 26, 2019, 12:55:11 pm
Most first time bands look at my rig and tell me they are going to supplement it with something they have brought. At that point I bring up program material to half and have them stand 50 ft out. Then we walk out another 75-100 feet. Then I turn it up to the last green light. It freaks a lot of them out.. 8) 8) 8)
Yup.
I've done a couple of House music DJ events, and they always look with dismay at what I brought.
Then it gets cranked up and jaws drop.
Always amazed and complimentary.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: John L Nobile on November 26, 2019, 01:47:59 pm
Yup.
I've done a couple of House music DJ events, and they always look with dismay at what I brought.
Then it gets cranked up and jaws drop.
Always amazed and complimentary.

I would imagine that this happens with most if not all Danley speakers.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Chris Hindle on November 26, 2019, 07:43:29 pm
I would imagine that this happens with most if not all Danley speakers.
"Here, let me back up and un-hitch the subwoofer......"
Chris.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Scott Slater on November 27, 2019, 09:17:40 am
Most first time bands look at my rig and tell me they are going to supplement it with something they have brought.

Haha, I've gotten that "Dude seriously, this is all you're bringing?" look many times when they see the Danley rig.  Only later to be amazed.  :P ;D
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Dave Guilford on November 27, 2019, 11:08:50 am
Ok Iíll bite.  What types of events are you guys doing? 

Trying to see if an SM80/th118 rig work for me.  I do a lot of summer beer tents, small-to-medium ďparty in the parkĒ types of things (400-1500 people), and occasional bar gigs.

Currently using SRX725/728 stack, properly powered. 3 or 4 times a year Iíll get a bigger where I build a double stack with 2 subs and 2 tops per side.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Taylor Hall on November 27, 2019, 11:16:21 am
Sounds well within the scope of what they can handle. Probably overkill for bar settings, but the directionality of the tops would make for much better intelligibility so you don't have to crank them like a traditional SOS setup.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Jonathan Betts on November 27, 2019, 02:49:37 pm
Ok Iíll bite.  What types of events are you guys doing? 

Trying to see if an SM80/th118 rig work for me.  I do a lot of summer beer tents, small-to-medium ďparty in the parkĒ types of things (400-1500 people), and occasional bar gigs.

Currently using SRX725/728 stack, properly powered. 3 or 4 times a year Iíll get a bigger where I build a double stack with 2 subs and 2 tops per side.

Small private parties to full day festivals.

The headliner at this festival had a draw of around 1200

https://youtu.be/e65ewX0ZBY8

Opening act you can see the TH -118ís

https://youtu.be/5jes7Jkx91s

Opera house 500 capacity:


https://youtu.be/alMP0mAukkM
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Kemper Watson on November 27, 2019, 04:10:41 pm
Ok Iíll bite.  What types of events are you guys doing? 

Trying to see if an SM80/th118 rig work for me.  I do a lot of summer beer tents, small-to-medium ďparty in the parkĒ types of things (400-1500 people), and occasional bar gigs.

Currently using SRX725/728 stack, properly powered. 3 or 4 times a year Iíll get a bigger where I build a double stack with 2 subs and 2 tops per side.


City events with 700-1000 people. Plenty of headroom.. Jazz on the Lawn type events the rig doesn't break a sweat..
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: John L Nobile on November 27, 2019, 04:17:15 pm
Keep in mind that with SM80's you will need subs for music events. They work great on their own for speeches and comedy shows.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Kemper Watson on November 27, 2019, 04:27:19 pm
Keep in mind that with SM80's you will need subs for music events. They work great on their own for speeches and comedy shows.

Most of my smaller shows get one sub a side. Over 700 I bring four..
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Dave Guilford on November 27, 2019, 06:22:50 pm


City events with 700-1000 people. Plenty of headroom.. Jazz on the Lawn type events the rig doesn't break a sweat..

What about rock n roll with similar size audience?
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 27, 2019, 07:37:49 pm
What about rock n roll with similar size audience?
Kemper is running the Danley TH212 subs, so not your normal sub
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Jeff Lelko on November 27, 2019, 09:43:31 pm
Trying to see if an SM80/th118 rig work for me.

Hi Dave, Iíll throw in my two cents as someone who has heard this system in person at a venue I regularly provide sound for but wasnít sold. 

Hereís the link (https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,167310.0.html) from the demo thread.

Without rambling on too much, thereís no doubt that the SM80 over TH118 rig is hard to beat both in bang-to-buck and in form factor.  I think youíd be very hard-pressed to find something with more usable output that can fit in a small vehicle for under the roughly $20-25K that youíd pay for an SM80 over 2x TH118/side system.  That said, is it the right system for you?  As always, it depends...  For me, it wasnít.

As mentioned further up, using subwoofers with the SM80 is mandatory for anything needing full-range playback.  Itís not even a ďnice to haveĒ in the sense how you can limp along a standard 2-way 12Ē or 15Ē box if needed...you will get basically no usable output below the advertised frequency response.  For me thatís a dealbreaker.  The majority of my sound work is for the corporate and municipal market, so despite using an SOS rig more often than not I donít want to NEED subwoofers on every job I play just to make the one song the client needs played to sound right.  In these cases Iím better served with the QSC HPR boxes that I already own, or upgrading to an RCF or Fulcrum option to cover my smaller to medium-sized work.  Iíd think a small band playing in a small corner or venue would face the same situation and come to the same conclusion.

On the flip side, the SM80 has its upper limits too.  While an SM80 over TH118 rig would offer some additional output and clarity using less boxes than my current larger rig (2 or 3 U15s over 3 UCS1s per side), it wouldnít open the door for any new business to extend my upper-end capabilities.  Though more expensive, Iíd personally see a much better return on investment with something like an SH46 array or small Jericho rig that would really shine in larger venues. 

In short, if youíre okay with using basically the same setup at any given venue (minus adjustments in subwoofer count) regardless of size and want a premium SOS rig than Iíd say go for it!  Otherwise, the system has its uses but isnít a magic bullet by any means.  While temping, I still donít see the SM80 in my future.  Hope this helps as some input that differs from the usual viewpoint! 
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Dave Garoutte on November 28, 2019, 02:31:19 am

On the flip side, the SM80 has its upper limits too.  While an SM80 over TH118 rig would offer some additional output and clarity using less boxes than my current larger rig (2 or 3 U15s over 3 UCS1s per side), it wouldnít open the door for any new business to extend my upper-end capabilities.  Though more expensive, Iíd personally see a much better return on investment with something like an SH46 array or small Jericho rig that would really shine in larger venues. 


But the SH and Jericho are quite a bit heavier, so become a different level of wrangle also.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Caleb Dueck on November 28, 2019, 02:52:50 am
But the SH and Jericho are quite a bit heavier, so become a different level of wrangle also.

It's all perspective.  If you're looking at EV/QSC/JBL/Mackie/etc speakers on a stick - SM80/TH118XL are amazing.  If you're looking at KF850, Flash/Flood, line arrays - then SH46's or J7's are a better fit.   
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Scott Slater on November 28, 2019, 08:40:29 am
What about rock n roll with similar size audience?

Works fine. I'm using a pair of SM80s over 4 TH118s for similar sized crowds and rock bands.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Steve Ferreira on November 28, 2019, 09:59:16 am
Ok Iíll bite.  What types of events are you guys doing? 

Trying to see if an SM80/th118 rig work for me.  I do a lot of summer beer tents, small-to-medium ďparty in the parkĒ types of things (400-1500 people), and occasional bar gigs.

Currently using SRX725/728 stack, properly powered. 3 or 4 times a year Iíll get a bigger where I build a double stack with 2 subs and 2 tops per side.

I'm in the same boat. I have the same exact setup as you do powered with ITechs. The largest room I do is 1200 people seated with dinner and then dance. I have to setup delay speakers as I don't want to blast the people at the front to get sound to the back of the room. The delays have worked well in this case.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on November 28, 2019, 01:22:31 pm
I'm in the same boat. I have the same exact setup as you do powered with ITechs. The largest room I do is 1200 people seated with dinner and then dance. I have to setup delay speakers as I don't want to blast the people at the front to get sound to the back of the room. The delays have worked well in this case.
Ya, and the delays don't really need to be anything special. Where it's not practical to run cable, I've been using a couple of those small Yorkville rechargeable speakers with an IEM system run off a matrix and it totally gets the job done (at least for my level of show).
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: John A Chiara on November 29, 2019, 10:27:09 pm
Iím of a similar view. The combo of 2 SM80ísover 4TH118xl is really
Good. However it doesnít compare to my new
setup of 4TH118xls and my Community 2 SLS960 with a 2x12 in
between flown as a horizontal array. The flown rig is flat to about 60 and gives
me tons of capability for low mid guitar stuff and thick vocals if needed and keeping the subs right out of it. I canít afford to upgrade so next summer this setup will see lots of use.

Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Doug Fowler on November 29, 2019, 11:50:43 pm
Iím of a similar view. The combo of 2 SM80ísover 4TH118xl is really
Good. However it doesnít compare to my new
setup of 4TH118xls and my Community 2 SLS960 with a 2x12 in
between flown as a horizontal array. The flown rig is flat to about 60 and gives
me tons of capability for low mid guitar stuff and thick vocals if needed and keeping the subs right out of it. I canít afford to upgrade so next summer this setup will see lots of use.

John -

What 2x12 are you using?  That was always the rub with 960s, not enough grunt for rock guitar.

Xover settings?
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: John A Chiara on November 30, 2019, 01:30:48 am
John -

What 2x12 are you using?  That was always the rub with 960s, not enough grunt for rock guitar.

Xover settings?
SBS22ís loaded with Lab12ís. Plenty of grunt from 3 boxes. Run on almost no power. Flip in some MaxxBass in the 22ís and you can almost do full range playback at pretty good levels. Powering with Crest Powerlite 5.0 DSP amps and they are pretty impressive and cost almost nothing.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Robert Lunceford on November 30, 2019, 09:08:45 pm
SBS22ís loaded with Lab12ís. Plenty of grunt from 3 boxes. Run on almost no power. Flip in some MaxxBass in the 22ís and you can almost do full range playback at pretty good levels. Powering with Crest Powerlite 5.0 DSP amps and they are pretty impressive and cost almost nothing.

That sounds like a interesting deployment. Do you have any photos?
You are powering the Danley subs with the Crest amps as well?
Is the MaxxBass the hardware unit or a plug in?
I have the MaxxBCL hardware and it is truly a ďmagic boxĒ.
Since it essentially doubles the perceived output of your subs in two rack spaces, it is a money and space saver. How much money and space would it take to double your TH118XLs?
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: John A Chiara on November 30, 2019, 11:36:38 pm
That sounds like a interesting deployment. Do you have any photos?
You are powering the Danley subs with the Crest amps as well?
Is the MaxxBass the hardware unit or a plug in?
I have the MaxxBCL hardware and it is truly a ďmagic boxĒ.
Since it essentially doubles the perceived output of your subs in two rack spaces, it is a money and space saver. How much money and space would it take to double your TH118XLs?
TH118XLs are on a Behringer Inuke 12,000 DSP. MaxxBass hardware. I did not use them on the Danleyís. Tried it on my old TH115 system and it wasnít very helpful. Iím going to be putting an Aphex Dominator II in the chain and experimenting. I have lots of experience with the Compellor/Dominator combo as well from years of club work on small systems tweaked to within an inch of their life. Itís a cool
Sounding analog mastering setup.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Robert Lunceford on December 01, 2019, 03:04:03 am
TH118XLs are on a Behringer Inuke 12,000 DSP. MaxxBass hardware. I did not use them on the Danleyís. Tried it on my old TH115 system and it wasnít very helpful. Iím going to be putting an Aphex Dominator II in the chain and experimenting. I have lots of experience with the Compellor/Dominator combo as well from years of club work on small systems tweaked to within an inch of their life. Itís a cool
Sounding analog mastering setup.

Interesting. My subs are front loaded 18" and the MaxxBCL works great with them. Maybe the Waves processing doesn't work well with the tapped horn.
Why does the forum show you as a one star newbie? You've been on this forum for as long as I can remember.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: John A Chiara on December 01, 2019, 09:06:27 am
Interesting. My subs are front loaded 18" and the MaxxBCL works great with them. Maybe the Waves processing doesn't work well with the tapped horn.
Why does the forum show you as a one star newbie? You've been on this forum for as long as I can remember.
I couldnít get my old account to sign on.
The Maxxbass works best with reflex boxes because it generates harmonics that are heard better with speakers you can see!! I have even used it with Lab subs and it does its thing...just not as obviously.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 01, 2019, 10:49:00 am
I couldnít get my old account to sign on.
The Maxxbass works best with reflex boxes because it generates harmonics that are heard better with speakers you can see!! I have even used it with Lab subs and it does its thing...just not as obviously.

So you mean it works best with speakers with more distortion--------------------
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: John A Chiara on December 01, 2019, 01:08:08 pm
So you mean it works best with speakers with more distortion--------------------
Exactly! Any box with the speaker NOT front facing obviously lowers distortion out front in a good design.
My club system depends on the Maxxbass. Usually running the whole PA, monitors and band on one circuit. Luckily my reference for low frequencies came from TH115ís and TH215ís...so Iím pretty good at Ďfakingí a facsimile when necessary under limited circumstances! Also have a Danley sub in my mastering setup in the studio, and 6 Lab Subs in my installed system. Hardest part for newbies is getting a reference on real low end and how to use it musically.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Mark Scrivener on December 01, 2019, 09:13:22 pm
Just to clarify - are you guys using the MaxxBCL or are you hosting the Maxxbass plugin in your live rig? And if the latter, how are you hosting the software?
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Robert Lunceford on December 01, 2019, 09:27:17 pm
Just to clarify - are you guys using the MaxxBCL or are you hosting the Maxxbass plugin in your live rig? And if the latter, how are you hosting the software?
Iím using the hardware unit. AES out of mixer into AES input of the MaxxBCL.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Mark Scrivener on December 01, 2019, 11:02:15 pm
Iím using the hardware unit. AES out of mixer into AES input of the MaxxBCL.

That's what I was guessing. Sadly the MaxxBCL is no longer produced, so looks like software is the only option. The thought of running an entire show off a laptop gives me pause. I've used laptops for synths, lights, special processing on a channel or two, backing tracks, but never for the full FOH. It's one thing to have backing tracks or a synth fail...quite something else to have the entire sound system go down due to a computer issue.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on December 01, 2019, 11:08:01 pm
That's what I was guessing. Sadly the MaxxBCL is no longer produced, so looks like software is the only option. The thought of running an entire show off a laptop gives me pause. I've used laptops for synths, lights, special processing on a channel or two, backing tracks, but never for the full FOH. It's one thing to have backing tracks or a synth fail...quite something else to have the entire sound system go down due to a computer issue.

Why wouldn't you use it as an insert that can be bypassed in the event of a failure?
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on January 16, 2020, 07:32:11 am
     
  Debbie;

  How is the new system? Still going out with it? Haven't heard much and was wondering how you like it now that you've had it for awhile. Hoping to see some pictures and video's.

     Kindest regards;

          Douglas R. Allen
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on January 16, 2020, 01:25:04 pm
     
  Debbie;

  How is the new system? Still going out with it? Haven't heard much and was wondering how you like it now that you've had it for awhile. Hoping to see some pictures and video's.

     Kindest regards;

          Douglas R. Allen

I had a bunch of small shows over the holidays and we are taking some time off to work in a new singer in the band so I haven't used the system as much as I want to - it is eating me alive!!!!
However, the shows we have done so far I have absolutely LOVED the results.  I don't have to work very hard to get a good sound but more importantly I can get a good sound in a not so good sounding rooms.
One thing that won't affect most but is a good indication of how feedback resistant the SM80's are....as you probably know, I sing from the FOH position through a wireless headset mic in our main band and in the past this has caused me pause when it comes to FOH positioning.
I find I have to be closer to the stage than I would like so as to reduce vocal latency and to 'be part of the band' yet if I am too close, I risk feedback from my mic  ...but then  of course I would prefer to be in a decent mixing position farther back - so I have to make compromises and walk back using my iPad regularly to check the sound.  Finding that sweet spot has been tough. However, because the Danley system is more feedback resistant - perhaps the Dual Concentric design? - I can position myself anywhere I want to now and I get zero feedback problems...... An added benefit I didn't know I would get but for me has been a HUGE bonus.

The bass through those TH118's is rich and so defined so happy hubby in that department.
Vocals cut through well - I think I just had to get used to the sound of not hearing a horn. I have dialed in those mid to upper frequencies now and boy does it sound good.
I am doing what others said might happen and I am finding myself working at slightly louder levels than before (oops) YET I get no complaints because the sound is so darn good.

I will get some pickies soon. I've never been much of a picture taker - once I get to a show, I get in the zone and I forget about everything else I'm afraid...

Next show for me where PA is needed is mid Feb where I will only use one TH118 but I can get pretty loud in there so that will be a good blow out for me.

I have an outdoor show coming up in March where I have been using the SRX800 system for 5 years and before that for about 3 years I used the SRX700 system so I'll be able to compare apples to apples using just 1 x TH118 and 1 x SM80 per side.  I'll definitely get some picks at that one.

Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: John Fruits on January 16, 2020, 03:44:13 pm
The bass through those TH118's is rich and so defined so happy hubby in that department.

I will get some pickies soon. I've never been much of a picture taker - once I get to a show, I get in the zone and I forget about everything else I'm afraid...
Hmmmmm, if memory serves, it was hubby who first suggested getting a Danley system.  Methinks he had a hidden agenda.
I should point out that the word pickies is easily misread as pickles!!!
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on January 16, 2020, 04:12:21 pm
Hmmmmm, if memory serves, it was hubby who first suggested getting a Danley system.  Methinks he had a hidden agenda.
I should point out that the word pickies is easily misread as pickles!!!
Hah - yes, it was hubby who suggested the Danley. And there I was thinking it was for ME!

In fact when I type 'pickies' - spell check corrects too pickles...
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 16, 2020, 04:44:34 pm
Because we all know how well *sound* shows up in pickles... er, pictures.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on January 16, 2020, 04:52:59 pm
   Debbie;
 
   Thanks for the reply!
Looking forward to the pictures and even a low quality cell phone video should you find someone to do a quick one in the crowd. Glad it passes the "hubby approval" also.  :)

  Thanks again;
  Douglas R. Allen




I had a bunch of small shows over the holidays and we are taking some time off to work in a new singer in the band so I haven't used the system as much as I want to - it is eating me alive!!!!
However, the shows we have done so far I have absolutely LOVED the results.  I don't have to work very hard to get a good sound but more importantly I can get a good sound in a not so good sounding rooms.
One thing that won't affect most but is a good indication of how feedback resistant the SM80's are....as you probably know, I sing from the FOH position through a wireless headset mic in our main band and in the past this has caused me pause when it comes to FOH positioning.
I find I have to be closer to the stage than I would like so as to reduce vocal latency and to 'be part of the band' yet if I am too close, I risk feedback from my mic  ...but then  of course I would prefer to be in a decent mixing position farther back - so I have to make compromises and walk back using my iPad regularly to check the sound.  Finding that sweet spot has been tough. However, because the Danley system is more feedback resistant - perhaps the Dual Concentric design? - I can position myself anywhere I want to now and I get zero feedback problems...... An added benefit I didn't know I would get but for me has been a HUGE bonus.

The bass through those TH118's is rich and so defined so happy hubby in that department.
Vocals cut through well - I think I just had to get used to the sound of not hearing a horn. I have dialed in those mid to upper frequencies now and boy does it sound good.
I am doing what others said might happen and I am finding myself working at slightly louder levels than before (oops) YET I get no complaints because the sound is so darn good.

I will get some pickies soon. I've never been much of a picture taker - once I get to a show, I get in the zone and I forget about everything else I'm afraid...

Next show for me where PA is needed is mid Feb where I will only use one TH118 but I can get pretty loud in there so that will be a good blow out for me.

I have an outdoor show coming up in March where I have been using the SRX800 system for 5 years and before that for about 3 years I used the SRX700 system so I'll be able to compare apples to apples using just 1 x TH118 and 1 x SM80 per side.  I'll definitely get some picks at that one.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: John L Nobile on January 16, 2020, 05:05:24 pm
I don't get to use my SM80's very often anymore but they always impress. Next Saturday I'm going to deploy them as sidewash. They work really well for that as well. I have 5 teenage singers (at least I hope they're singers). They want a clean stage. I put one SM LPM in each corner and the SM80's for sidewash. Clean and great coverage.
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Frank Koenig on January 16, 2020, 07:09:07 pm
Because we all know how well *sound* shows up in pickles... er, pictures.

(http://cucumber.jpg)
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on January 16, 2020, 08:24:09 pm
(http://cucumber.jpg)

HA HA - Is he singing this??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNby0X5AOIU
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Dave Garoutte on January 16, 2020, 09:07:10 pm
Or, 'I don't want a pickle, just want to ride on my motorsickle'.  ;D
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Craig Leerman on January 17, 2020, 12:38:40 am
Pickles or it didnít happen!  ;D
Title: Re: My new Danley System
Post by: Mark Scrivener on January 17, 2020, 12:46:51 am
Or, 'I don't want a pickle, just want to ride on my motorsickle'.  ;D

And I don't wanna die.....just wanna ride on my motor cy kle.

Such a poet that Arlo....