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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Tim Weaver on October 20, 2019, 09:08:19 am

Title: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: Tim Weaver on October 20, 2019, 09:08:19 am
I have a house network with a Vlan for audio stuff. All my Dante and other audio bits are on that Vlan. FWIW, 3 Yamaha CL's 2 stageboxes, dante IEM packs, couple of computer, etc. All of this runs on 2 switches. One at FOH and one at the stage.

Also on this network are 2 waves impact servers (redundant), a single YSG card in the console, and the host computer running soundgrid. These are all plugged into the same switch.

Last week we upgraded switches (netgear crap, one was wonky, replaced both). We then enabled IGMP Snooping to handle the multicast traffic. I didn't catch it then, but I get to show day and my Soundgrid stuff can't talk to each other. Does soundgrid use multicast? Or does anyone have an idea on why the console, host, and server can't talk to each other anymore?

Thanks....
Title: Re: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: Tim Weaver on October 20, 2019, 09:14:20 am
forgot to add, this is strictly to run plugins on my broadcast mixer. I'm not using protools or any other waves products. In fact, if I could host waves plugins on a dedicated PC and rout it with Dante, I'd probably give up the Impact servers. I'm about done with Waves software.
Title: Re: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: Brian Bolly on October 20, 2019, 09:17:37 am
Are the switches you're using qualified Waves Soundgrid switches (https://www.waves.com/support/network-switches-for-soundgrid-systems)?

I seriously wouldn't have my Waves switches attached to anything else except devices that are doing Waves, VLAN or not.  And the Netgear GS108 is about as cheap as they get.
Title: Re: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: Tim Weaver on October 20, 2019, 09:43:27 am
Are the switches you're using qualified Waves Soundgrid switches (https://www.waves.com/support/network-switches-for-soundgrid-systems)?

I seriously wouldn't have my Waves switches attached to anything else except devices that are doing Waves, VLAN or not.  And the Netgear GS108 is about as cheap as they get.

We are using Netgear GC728XP. It worked with the older netgear switches, and these are brand new and higher spec. Unfortunately I have no control over what switches are used for the network, and I can't take the host computer off the dante network.

The new switches are not on that list, but they are a new product from what I gather. It may not have been updated to reflect these switches.
Title: Re: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: Brian Bolly on October 20, 2019, 10:16:06 am
We are using Netgear GC728XP. It worked with the older netgear switches, and these are brand new and higher spec. Unfortunately I have no control over what switches are used for the network, and I can't take the host computer off the dante network.

The new switches are not on that list, but they are a new product from what I gather. It may not have been updated to reflect these switches.

Do you have a dual NIC card/adapter option on the host computer?  Waves is a fickle beast and the more simple the setup the better.  If you can isolate the Waves side of things, especially if that host machine is also doing Dante related work, do it.

Unless you have it in writing from Waves that those particular Netgear switches have been certified by them, I wouldn't trust them - I'd get one of the GS108s, get the Waves side of things on its own network with its own switch that only does that, and be done with it. 
Title: Re: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: Benjamin Krumholz on October 20, 2019, 10:37:43 am
We are using Netgear GC728XP. It worked with the older netgear switches, and these are brand new and higher spec. Unfortunately I have no control over what switches are used for the network, and I can't take the host computer off the dante network.


Couple Options: Create another Vlan on the new Switch for the SoundGrid Network devices. Connect all your Soundgrid cards and Servers to that VLAN. Use a USB or Thunderbolt NIC on the control computer to access Soundgrid Network. Then use the Built in NIC to access Dante. Or Vise Versa.

Hear Technologies makes a Dante to Soundgrid Bridge.
https://www.waves.com/hardware/hear-technologies-wsg-bridge
Use your old switches to make a separate "Soundgrid Network" with their own switches.. Transfer audio between networks with the Bridge.

I would still get a USB NIC for the Remote control computer.. No problem to use a dongle for the Dante connection if you want to keep the built in NIC for the Soundgrid Network


Title: Re: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: Tim Weaver on October 20, 2019, 10:57:01 am
Do you have a dual NIC card/adapter option on the host computer?

I use the built in ethernet nic for Dante (and used to be soundgrid too) and use the wifi for non essential stuff, vnc, web, etc/.
Title: Re: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: Tim Weaver on October 20, 2019, 11:03:31 am
Couple Options: Create another Vlan on the new Switch for the SoundGrid Network devices. Connect all your Soundgrid cards and Servers to that VLAN. Use a USB or Thunderbolt NIC on the control computer to access Soundgrid Network. Then use the Built in NIC to access Dante. Or Vise Versa.

Hear Technologies makes a Dante to Soundgrid Bridge.
https://www.waves.com/hardware/hear-technologies-wsg-bridge
Use your old switches to make a separate "Soundgrid Network" with their own switches.. Transfer audio between networks with the Bridge.

I would still get a USB NIC for the Remote control computer.. No problem to use a dongle for the Dante connection if you want to keep the built in NIC for the Soundgrid Network

This might have to be the answer I guess.

I have a Cisco SG300 sitting here unused. We had a pair of those running the Dante just for this room, but then we expanded to sending dante between buildings, etc. IT wanted the same switches everywhere for easier management. It was an issue getting the Cisco switches to live happily on the predominatly netgear network.
Title: Re: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: Andrew Hollis on October 21, 2019, 11:15:46 am
Test your devices by connecting them directly to each other.
If it still doesnít work itís not your switch/network, itís the devices.

Thereís more to it than IGMP so look into that too:
https://www.audinate.com/sites/default/files/PDF/adding-dante-to-your-network-audinate.pdf
Title: Re: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: Tim Weaver on October 21, 2019, 01:45:04 pm
Test your devices by connecting them directly to each other.
If it still doesnít work itís not your switch/network, itís the devices.

Thereís more to it than IGMP so look into that too:
https://www.audinate.com/sites/default/files/PDF/adding-dante-to-your-network-audinate.pdf

To be clear, I'm not having any problems (currently) with dante. It's getting soundgrid to live peacefully on the same network as Dante. Soundgrid is Waves' proprietary version of digital audio transport. As of right now I have to use soundgrid to connect the console to the servers and the imac host running the multirack host software.
Title: Re: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: Andrew Hollis on October 21, 2019, 03:56:51 pm
To be clear, I'm not having any problems (currently) with dante. It's getting soundgrid to live peacefully on the same network as Dante. Soundgrid is Waves' proprietary version of digital audio transport. As of right now I have to use soundgrid to connect the console to the servers and the imac host running the multirack host software.

Yes I understand. Ruling out a network by connecting devices directly works for any type of device.

Dante does not have any special mechanism to prevent other devices from appearing on a network, so it may be worth confirming WSG is happy standalone first. Other than viewing the switch config directly, there's little to go on here. You could pop Wireshark onto the switch to see if it's capturing any WSG packets.

Itís not officially supported by WSG, but Iíve converged WSG with Dante and other data without issues.
Title: Re: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: Russell Ault on October 21, 2019, 04:38:32 pm
Ruling out a network by connecting devices directly works for any type of device.

It doesn't really work with SoundGrid devices, though, because there are at least three devices (I/O, SoundGrid Server, computer running MultiRack) that need to be able to talk to each other before anything will start passing audio.

For what it's worth, SoundGrid is a layer 2 protocol (like EtherSound and CobraNet) which is why it tends to be more switch-picky than Dante is. Unlikely Dante, to my knowledge Waves isn't pushing SoundGrid as a "whole-campus" audio solution, and most of the switches on the (very small) compatibility list are 16 ports or smaller.

I would echo the comments above that separating SoundGrid traffic onto its own dedicated switch is probably the easiest and fastest solution; it should be relatively cheap, too (especially if all of the Waves-related equipment is in the same room together).

-Russ
Title: Re: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: Tim Weaver on October 21, 2019, 06:13:19 pm
It doesn't really work with SoundGrid devices, though, because there are at least three devices (I/O, SoundGrid Server, computer running MultiRack) that need to be able to talk to each other before anything will start passing audio.

For what it's worth, SoundGrid is a layer 2 protocol (like EtherSound and CobraNet) which is why it tends to be more switch-picky than Dante is. Unlikely Dante, to my knowledge Waves isn't pushing SoundGrid as a "whole-campus" audio solution, and most of the switches on the (very small) compatibility list are 16 ports or smaller.

I would echo the comments above that separating SoundGrid traffic onto its own dedicated switch is probably the easiest and fastest solution; it should be relatively cheap, too (especially if all of the Waves-related equipment is in the same room together).

-Russ

Well, I just had a mini epiphany. A dante mini-ygdai card is only 650 bucks. I have 2 impact servers with the yamaha cards to go with them to sell. Then I could use any host I want to.

The Dante card lets me have 16 channels in and out of the desk which I can dedicate to inserts. That and a copy of Live Professor effectively replaces all the soundgrid stuff that I have and it will sit on the regular dante network just fine. I fact, I could even share those plug ins with other consoles if the need arises. Not to mention it opens up my world to non-waves plug ins as well.
Title: Re: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: Russell Ault on October 21, 2019, 07:33:52 pm
Well, I just had a mini epiphany. A dante mini-ygdai card is only 650 bucks. I have 2 impact servers with the yamaha cards to go with them to sell. Then I could use any host I want to.

The Dante card lets me have 16 channels in and out of the desk which I can dedicate to inserts. That and a copy of Live Professor effectively replaces all the soundgrid stuff that I have and it will sit on the regular dante network just fine. I fact, I could even share those plug ins with other consoles if the need arises. Not to mention it opens up my world to non-waves plug ins as well.

That's all true, with a couple caveats: your round-trip latency will increase by an order of magnitude, and your reliability will suffer (SoundGrid servers don't cough the way general purpose computers do).

-Russ
Title: Re: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: Benjamin Krumholz on October 21, 2019, 07:36:42 pm
The Dante card lets me have 16 channels in and out of the desk which I can dedicate to inserts. That and a copy of Live Professor effectively replaces all the soundgrid stuff

I have never heard of the Live Professor Program before.... Interested to see what the plugin performance comparison is between this and the impact server. I am sure it depends on the computers processor..
That would still be one big advantage of running the server.. You can add processing power as you need with the waves servers..
Also if you do not have touring shows coming in and demanding the Waves Platform, then i would be less beholden.
Title: Re: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on October 21, 2019, 07:54:47 pm
LiveProfessor is really nice, I use it a lot for reverbs.
Title: Re: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: Tim Weaver on October 21, 2019, 07:59:31 pm
That's all true, with a couple caveats: your round-trip latency will increase by an order of magnitude, and your reliability will suffer (SoundGrid servers don't cough the way general purpose computers do).

-Russ

This is for a broadcast mixer so latency isn't as much of a problem. And I will probably dedicate a computer just for this. Maybe a mac mini. I don't really do reverbs on my plugins. It's mostly dynamics and then some waves tune real time.
Title: Re: Any Soundgrid/Network wizards out there?
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on October 21, 2019, 10:32:14 pm
This is for a broadcast mixer so latency isn't as much of a problem. And I will probably dedicate a computer just for this. Maybe a mac mini. I don't really do reverbs on my plugins. It's mostly dynamics and then some waves tune real time.

I really think latency still will be a problem if you are adding processing to individual channel inserts.   If you use a Dante Accelerator card for the computer running your plugins that will help, but the latency hit with DVS is huge compared to soundgrid.   Before you sell off all the waves stuff,  I would try to figure out a way to test this setup, renting a Dante card maybe.