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Title: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Eileen Krause on October 14, 2019, 12:05:53 pm
Friends,
Firstly, thanks to those that take time to offer wisdom and share real world experience!  It's a great resource. 
My small church is looking to install hearing assistance system and I'm "caught" in the middle of the decision between FM system vs Induction Loop. 
Loop install is of course more expensive (although honestly from preliminary opinion the 50x45 sanctuary perimeter with wood pine floors and exposed rafter underneath etc.. would not be a extra extra expensive or problematic wire install)
BUT--  setting aside price difference

Do any of you have real world experience with usage of systems, problems with either technology?
My sound guy agrees with me that FM system is best course and the Williams Sound company rep recommended FM+wifi system .... BUT 3 or 4 of hearing aid members just say-- put in the loop..
for them it's automatic to their t-coil hearing aids and no gadgets or earpieces needed.

It's a tricky "church folks" decision to make as we want to respect the older group and their needs
but it seems like whichever decision we make "someone" will be unhappy ..

Any feedback, wisdom much appreciated..  it's stressful for me as I navigate but I do have assistant pastors assurance that HE will take the complaint department... LOL. 


Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on October 14, 2019, 12:29:20 pm
We went the FM route.  What about the fourth member?  Would it work for them?  What about visitors?  What about someone that hasn't yet been able to afford hearing aids?  A church is for everyone that wants to participate.

Another use we get out of ours-unfortunately, we have had to go to watching exterior doors during services.  Often, ushers watching doors will use our Listen System to "tune in" to the service.

I'm not trying to argue for the FM system-just questions I think you might want to consider.
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Eileen Krause on October 14, 2019, 05:39:32 pm
Steve
thank you so much for your real world feedback.  I absolutely agree with you..  And I am so sorry too that new realities now have our ushers "watching" the entrances and exits..  sad.
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on October 14, 2019, 05:55:56 pm
A few things to consider:

Here's some more information: http://hearing.wustl.edu/Hearing-Assistive-Technology/Hearing-Assistive-Technology-On-the-Go
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Mike Caldwell on October 14, 2019, 07:30:22 pm
The points have pretty much have been covered between FM vs. Loop but I will say
if you go with a FM system get one that operates in the 216mhz band width.

They sound better, less background noise, better range and you have a smaller antenna
to install.

I don't think Williams Sound offers a 216mhz model, Listen Technology does.
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Erik Jerde on October 15, 2019, 12:05:21 am
Loop systems have been known to cause intractable problems with single coil pickups.  If you use any instruments with pickups this should be an important consideration. 
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Eileen Krause on October 15, 2019, 09:51:45 am
Jonathan,
Thank you so much for the bullet point list.  It confirms my research but offers a bit more of the technical issues that can arise with one choice or the other.    I fear I'm reaching analysis paralysis.   :(.   

Do you work in venue/church that uses a system?   

Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Eileen Krause on October 15, 2019, 09:55:34 am
The points have pretty much have been covered between FM vs. Loop but I will say
if you go with a FM system get one that operates in the 216mhz band width.

They sound better, less background noise, better range and you have a smaller antenna
to install.

I don't think Williams Sound offers a 216mhz model, Listen Technology does.

Hi Mike,
Wow, I had not considered.   Adding to the list of considerations.  So do you have personal experience working with the Listen Tech 216 system?
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Eileen Krause on October 15, 2019, 10:03:31 am
Loop systems have been known to cause intractable problems with single coil pickups.  If you use any instruments with pickups this should be an important consideration.

Erik,
Thanks for the tip.  We don't have a worship band..no electric instruments used during service..
Although I could be tempted to whip out my beloved 1967 Strat and play my Hendrix inspired version of How Great thou Art....   😂😂   that would be my finale as I leave the church due to stress caused
from working on church audio/tech.     
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Caleb Dueck on October 15, 2019, 11:53:28 am
Erik,
Thanks for the tip.  We don't have a worship band..no electric instruments used during service..
Although I could be tempted to whip out my beloved 1967 Strat and play my Hendrix inspired version of How Great thou Art....   😂😂   that would be my finale as I leave the church due to stress caused
from working on church audio/tech.   

Without digging too deep into the details - loop if designed right (they aren't simple) beats RF.  The number one hesitation for loop is cost.  If cost isn't a big hurdle, and Listen or Williams designs the system themselves - go for it. 
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on October 15, 2019, 12:36:52 pm
Loop systems have been known to cause intractable problems with single coil pickups.  If you use any instruments with pickups this should be an important consideration.

If you exclude the stage from the loop (and keep the loop wire a respectable distance from the stage) you can minimize the effect.

We don't have a worship band..no electric instruments used during service..
Although I could be tempted to whip out my beloved 1967 Strat and play my Hendrix inspired version of How Great thou Art....   😂😂   that would be my finale as I leave the church due to stress caused
from working on church audio/tech.     

You might not use them during regular worship, but what about special events like weddings and memorial services? There is often a desire to have special music, and that *may* include performers using instruments with pickups. Be aware of where your loop is, and instruct performers to stay outside of the loop.
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Eileen Krause on October 15, 2019, 05:35:54 pm
Valid points Jonathan.  Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Mike Caldwell on October 15, 2019, 05:49:15 pm
Hi Mike,
Wow, I had not considered.   Adding to the list of considerations.  So do you have personal experience working with the Listen Tech 216 system?

Yes I do. The installs I have used them work and sound great. As far as range and coverage in those installs I set the power output to the mid level setting and still had great coverage inside. On the high setting I could walk outside around the parking lot and still have good reception.

All of the systems have the neck loop to plug into the body pack receiver for T coil hearing aids. The second report I heard about how those work said it was good.


 
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Steven Cohen on October 25, 2019, 05:12:23 pm
Eileen,

As another poster pointed out you can have a FM system where the receivers have a loop attachment that goes around the user's neck. Think of it as a "Personal loop." This is really the best of both worlds where people without Tele coil hearing aids can use FM receivers, while users with tele coil hearing aids that have the tele coil enabled can be given a receiver with the loop attachment. In fact, for profit venues must have a certain amount of "regular receivers" and a certain amount of "T-coil loop adapters." Listen Technologies has alot of good information on their site about assistive listening systems,

https://www.listentech.com/

Friends,
Firstly, thanks to those that take time to offer wisdom and share real world experience!  It's a great resource. 
My small church is looking to install hearing assistance system and I'm "caught" in the middle of the decision between FM system vs Induction Loop. 
Loop install is of course more expensive (although honestly from preliminary opinion the 50x45 sanctuary perimeter with wood pine floors and exposed rafter underneath etc.. would not be a extra extra expensive or problematic wire install)
BUT--  setting aside price difference

Do any of you have real world experience with usage of systems, problems with either technology?
My sound guy agrees with me that FM system is best course and the Williams Sound company rep recommended FM+wifi system .... BUT 3 or 4 of hearing aid members just say-- put in the loop..
for them it's automatic to their t-coil hearing aids and no gadgets or earpieces needed.

It's a tricky "church folks" decision to make as we want to respect the older group and their needs
but it seems like whichever decision we make "someone" will be unhappy ..

Any feedback, wisdom much appreciated..  it's stressful for me as I navigate but I do have assistant pastors assurance that HE will take the complaint department... LOL.
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Eileen Krause on December 09, 2019, 01:23:27 pm
Eileen,

As another poster pointed out you can have a FM system where the receivers have a loop attachment that goes around the user's neck. Think of it as a "Personal loop." This is really the best of both worlds where people without Tele coil hearing aids can use FM receivers, while users with tele coil hearing aids that have the tele coil enabled can be given a receiver with the loop attachment. In fact, for profit venues must have a certain amount of "regular receivers" and a certain amount of "T-coil loop adapters." Listen Technologies has alot of good information on their site about assistive listening systems,

https://www.listentech.com/

Steve,
Thank YOU so much for your post.  I have an FM demo from Listen Tech folks they have been fantastic support and resource.
The FM works great in our smallish space.  My biggest "problem" is navigating with 8 or 9 people who have hearing aids but dont' really understand "how" their hearing aids work and how to turn T-coil on and off etc.. etc.

It leads to a lot of frustration on their part.. and I have been noticing that some of their audiologists are not super good at helping/advising them how to use in the real world.
I had one email me that she was "surprised" that the FM system with the neck loop lanyard could work with T-coil...  oh boy.. the technology has been around for 15 years at least.
I am trying to work one on one with each person and doing my best to be patient-- then again with xmas pageant week.. I am already burnt out.
BUT I have a younger engineer buddy who is supposed to help "grandma"
( aka me) out this week.. 
Full speed ahead, damn the torpedoes.  ;D

Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Mike Caldwell on December 09, 2019, 04:30:17 pm
Steve,
Thank YOU so much for your post.  I have an FM demo from Listen Tech folks they have been fantastic support and resource.
The FM works great in our smallish space.  My biggest "problem" is navigating with 8 or 9 people who have hearing aids but dont' really understand "how" their hearing aids work and how to turn T-coil on and off etc.. etc.



What frequency group did you get for the demo?
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Eileen Krause on December 10, 2019, 08:46:32 pm
What frequency group did you get for the demo?
Hey Mike,
Thanks for asking.  Iím using 72Mhz demo.  Coverage is good.  No interference.  And for our 65 x 45 rectangular sanctuary seems good.

As mentioned above, my biggest hurdle is each of the hearing aid folks who donít really understand functioning of their hearing aids.
Have you dealt with that issue? 
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Jonathan Johnson on December 11, 2019, 02:13:57 pm
As mentioned above, my biggest hurdle is each of the hearing aid folks who donít really understand functioning of their hearing aids.
Have you dealt with that issue?

Old folks struggling with technology? Say it ain't so!

I do find it troubling that their audiologists apparently struggle with technology, too, and don't understand how their own products work with induction loops. I guess that's just more proof of the disconnect between engineering and sales.
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Mike Caldwell on December 11, 2019, 05:18:42 pm
Old folks struggling with technology? Say it ain't so!



Trust me it's not always the "old folks" who struggle with technology.
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Eileen Krause on December 11, 2019, 05:37:25 pm
Old folks struggling with technology? Say it ain't so!

I do find it troubling that their audiologists apparently struggle with technology, too, and don't understand how their own products work with induction loops. I guess that's just more proof of the disconnect between engineering and sales.

Jonathan,
I think a big part of the problem is that by the time someone gets the hearing aid there is a lot built up frustration- from years of losing hearing etc..

And then when they are at the audiologists getting recommendations for devices I also wonder how carefully things are laid out--  I mean in terms of communication.

It's like going to the doctor for a serious problem and they are talking and your brain is only taking in so much-- because you're upset that your losing hearing, getting old.. etc..  and when you leave the appointment you don't remember half of what they said..

 So might be best to have someone with you who can be objective and get all the information.    I have sympathy for the folks.  As someone who has started facing my own serious physical "limits" in my life at 67 it is frustrating...  Losing, it plays games with your head.   Not able to do things that used to be a breeze.. well it's interesting, new phases of life.   I'm grateful to be here.

 
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Eileen Krause on December 11, 2019, 05:38:19 pm
Trust me it's not always the "old folks" who struggle with technology.

Amen to that Mike!
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Erik Jerde on December 12, 2019, 02:59:19 am
Old folks struggling with technology? Say it ain't so!

I do find it troubling that their audiologists apparently struggle with technology, too, and don't understand how their own products work with induction loops. I guess that's just more proof of the disconnect between engineering and sales.

Back when I still did IT work one of my clients was an ENT practice.  They had audiologists on staff who did a lot of hearing aid work.  They were as technologically incompetent as any other general user.  You have to work hard to get one who understands more than their simple toolset and who really has any comprehension of adjusting aids for something other than picking up conversation.

HA programming software is universally a dumpster fire too BTW.
Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Eileen Krause on December 31, 2019, 11:03:27 pm
Back when I still did IT work one of my clients was an ENT practice.  They had audiologists on staff who did a lot of hearing aid work.  They were as technologically incompetent as any other general user.  You have to work hard to get one who understands more than their simple toolset and who really has any comprehension of adjusting aids for something other than picking up conversation.

HA programming software is universally a dumpster fire too BTW.

Hi,
Regarding HA programming software -  yes I am seeing the nightmare with that..  itís a shame.

I Wanted to report back that for our small church the Listen Technology FM72 system is really a good solution.  And the sales and tech people at Listen Tech were helpful and supportive. 
Another Cool thing is that I can easily move the system to our parish hall when we have large meetings, lectures there. .
thanks again for those who contributed hereó  as always a great resource.

Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Chuk Gleason on January 01, 2020, 09:31:54 pm
Eileen, where are you located? 

A good source of information is often your state's disability services organizations.   I'm near Raleigh, NC, and several years ago attended a couple conference sessions for disability issues, pointed directly at hearing assistance esp. for churches.  Very instructive.


Fun fact:  Hearing loss and the attendant separation of the sufferer from interaction with their worship service is a major reason older people leave churches as their hearing deteriorates.  They get frustrated at not being 'up to speed' on things, at not being able to follow worship services, conversational flow, etc.   So, doing work for helping your hard-of-hearing members is a mizpah. 


In NC, it's https://www.ncdhhs.gov/assistance/hearing-loss/deaf-services


FWIW, I help sound at my church, and about 8 years ago a member family donated a hearing assistance system (think it's a Williams Sound VP-37; transmitter & receivers are switchable for frequency) and several of the receivers.  We just feed a separate mix-bus off our board to the transmitter.  We have a Midas M32R console, and can nicely tailor that feed in a separate mix-bus, similar to our floor monitors;

Good luck!

Title: Re: Hearing Assistance FM72 vs Induction Loop
Post by: Steven Cohen on January 09, 2020, 12:36:16 pm
Just want to pass on some recent news. Bluetooth low energy products will be coming on-line over the next few years. I suspect that this technology will be used in assistive listening systems as hearing aids will use this technology. If you are in a position to wait a year to see how this technology integrates into assistive listening systems, I would wait. If you need to meet ADA requirements now, I would do so with the most inexpensive solution possible so you do not have a large investment when/if you want to change to Bluetooth LE. That being said the ADA may have to be amended with dropping the rule that businesses need to supply assistive listening receivers.


 
Friends,
Firstly, thanks to those that take time to offer wisdom and share real world experience!  It's a great resource. 
My small church is looking to install hearing assistance system and I'm "caught" in the middle of the decision between FM system vs Induction Loop. 
Loop install is of course more expensive (although honestly from preliminary opinion the 50x45 sanctuary perimeter with wood pine floors and exposed rafter underneath etc.. would not be a extra extra expensive or problematic wire install)
BUT--  setting aside price difference

Do any of you have real world experience with usage of systems, problems with either technology?
My sound guy agrees with me that FM system is best course and the Williams Sound company rep recommended FM+wifi system .... BUT 3 or 4 of hearing aid members just say-- put in the loop..
for them it's automatic to their t-coil hearing aids and no gadgets or earpieces needed.

It's a tricky "church folks" decision to make as we want to respect the older group and their needs
but it seems like whichever decision we make "someone" will be unhappy ..

Any feedback, wisdom much appreciated..  it's stressful for me as I navigate but I do have assistant pastors assurance that HE will take the complaint department... LOL.