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Title: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 23, 2019, 12:54:57 pm
I know I have been accused many times of being 'struck down' with G.A.S. ( and for very good reason)... BUT yesterday late morning as I was sitting at my computer minding my own business recovering from a VERY late saturday night ( early morning) show, Chris suddenly announces, " As we don't have that many years left doing this  - maybe we should go out in style and sell everything ( PA FOH) and get a nice Danley system?"... I almost choked on my coffee....
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Bob Stone on September 23, 2019, 01:36:54 pm
What does "G.A.S." mean?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Caleb Dueck on September 23, 2019, 01:38:39 pm
What does "G.A.S." mean?

Gear Acquisition Syndrome.

Chris sounds like a very wise man😁
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Tim Weaver on September 23, 2019, 04:59:50 pm
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/3b7abdd4322c9fb22baec470c7108974/tenor.gif?itemid=4445206)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Taylor Hall on September 23, 2019, 05:00:30 pm
Better use that GAS while the tank is full :P
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Mark Scrivener on September 23, 2019, 06:22:04 pm
I've used that logic many times.....and here I am still kicking, and still applying the "might as well spend it while I still can enjoy it" mantra. Though I always keep in mind my wife's advice - "dying isn't what scares me. Living is freakin' expensive, esp heath care."
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Frank Koenig on September 23, 2019, 06:27:03 pm
Who am I to judge? I've been using the end-game rationalization for years  ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Bolt on September 23, 2019, 08:20:06 pm
I know I have been accused many times of being 'struck down' with G.A.S. ( and for very good reason)... BUT yesterday late morning as I was sitting at my computer minding my own business recovering from a VERY late saturday night ( early morning) show, Chris suddenly announces, " As we don't have that many years left doing this  - maybe we should go out in style and sell everything ( PA FOH) and get a nice Danley system?"... I almost choked on my coffee....

Act quick Debbie! ;)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on September 23, 2019, 09:12:38 pm
I know I have been accused many times of being 'struck down' with G.A.S. ( and for very good reason)... BUT yesterday late morning as I was sitting at my computer minding my own business recovering from a VERY late saturday night ( early morning) show, Chris suddenly announces, " As we don't have that many years left doing this  - maybe we should go out in style and sell everything ( PA FOH) and get a nice Danley system?"... I almost choked on my coffee....

You wonít regret the move from JBL MI to Danley.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Keith Broughton on September 24, 2019, 07:00:36 am
You wonít regret the move from JBL MI to Danley.
You will wonder why you didn't do it sooner! :)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 24, 2019, 12:44:45 pm
Sorry Debbie,  I didn't know I was contagious. :-[
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Taylor Hall on September 24, 2019, 01:09:36 pm
Sorry Debbie,  I didn't know I was contagious. :-[
Just call it an occupational hazard
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 24, 2019, 01:10:13 pm
Sorry Debbie,  I didn't know I was contagious. :-[

Ha ha.... ironically I had read your recent post regarding your Danley purchase - Congrats BTW!..... and normally I would have to say that it put the seed in my mind.....BUT Chris was unaware of it so that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it  ;)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on September 24, 2019, 03:04:45 pm
I know I have been accused many times of being 'struck down' with G.A.S. ( and for very good reason)... BUT yesterday late morning as I was sitting at my computer minding my own business recovering from a VERY late saturday night ( early morning) show, Chris suddenly announces, " As we don't have that many years left doing this  - maybe we should go out in style and sell everything ( PA FOH) and get a nice Danley system?"... I almost choked on my coffee....
Going from your current JBL system to a Danley system is worth it if you are doing outdoor concerts and nice rooms.  If you are mostly playing in noisy bars, I wouldnít spend the money to make the move. Danleys are not a magic bullet for a bad room or environment.
I use the SM80s at the two outdoor summer concert series that I do. I use the K-Arrays almost exclusively for all the indoor concerts I do.






Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Nathan Riddle on September 24, 2019, 03:35:45 pm
Going from your current JBL system to a Danley system is worth it if you are doing outdoor concerts and nice rooms.  If you are mostly playing in noisy bars, I wouldnít spend the money to make the move. Danleys are not a magic bullet for a bad room or environment.
I use the SM80s at the two outdoor summer concert series that I do. I use the K-Arrays almost exclusively for all the indoor concerts I do.

I don't know... I enjoyed running my dLive FX plugin hypabass adding 18-36hz in my TH118's at the last gig :)
oodles of fun.

You should do it Debbie, get a dLive while you're at it :P
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 24, 2019, 03:48:14 pm
Danleys are not a magic bullet for a bad room or environment.


This hadn't even crossed my mind. I do mainly work the small to mid sized bars and restaurants but especially during the summer I get my fair share of outdoor shows plus some nice private work too. So I would put the system to good use.

I don't do this for the money - heck if I did, Chris and I would have starved a LONG time ago. I do this because I thoroughly enjoy every (well almost every  :) ) aspect of the process but mainly when I stand at FOH and I am able to help produce something that can actually make me smile, it is an adrenaline rush for me. When that stops, I'll retire.....
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ivan Beaver on September 24, 2019, 03:52:39 pm
I was VERY addicted to GAS.

It is the worst drug ever invented.

You get more gear, so you can get better gigs, so you can get more gear-to get better gigs etc etc.

I went through 2 periods of that.  After the first, I said I would never touch the stuff again, but I did.  And it was worse the second time.

I "think" I am finally off of it.  But I still enjoy the "taste" when I work-------
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 24, 2019, 03:54:53 pm
How would  a pair of the TH118, with pair of SM80's compare to what I have now -SRX828sp, 2x SRX818sp and 2 x SRX815p in terms of SPL?   
I compared my SRX812p with pair of SM80 a few years ago and the SM80's in comparison seemed to go on forever. We had them side by side outdoors and I could easily walk almost twice as far from the SM80's before I lost them. It was quite eye opening and I never forgot it. The SRX subs I use (basically 4 x 18's) do a really good job for my biggest shows but if I got a pair of the TH118's, would they go as loud / louder?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Rob Spence on September 24, 2019, 04:07:06 pm
How would  a pair of the TH118, with pair of SM80's compare to what I have now -SRX828sp, 2x SRX818sp and 2 x SRX815p in terms of SPL?   
I compared my SRX812p with pair of SM80 a few years ago and the SM80's in comparison seemed to go on forever. We had them side by side outdoors and I could easily walk almost twice as far from the SM80's before I lost them. It was quite eye opening and I never forgot it. The SRX subs I use (basically 4 x 18's) do a really good job for my biggest shows but if I got a pair of the TH118's, would they go as loud / louder?

I canít speak to the 4 18Ē you have but I replaced 4 JTR Growlers with 2 TH118s. The TH118s are more than the 4 Growlers, sound better and I can move them myself. The Growlers were 90lbs and a pain to move for me. The TH118 at 160lbs are easy. I can load, unload and move them around myself. Of course, I never lift them. Just up & down a ramp to the trailer.

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on September 24, 2019, 04:25:11 pm
This hadn't even crossed my mind. I do mainly work the small to mid sized bars and restaurants but especially during the summer I get my fair share of outdoor shows plus some nice private work too. So I would put the system to good use.

I don't do this for the money - heck if I did, Chris and I would have starved a LONG time ago. I do this because I thoroughly enjoy every (well almost every  :) ) aspect of the process but mainly when I stand at FOH and I am able to help produce something that can actually make me smile, it is an adrenaline rush for me. When that stops, I'll retire.....
If you can swing it, get the Danleys but keep a self powered speaker system appropriate for use in the small and mid size bars.
You will probably want to get the Danley system up and running before selling your existing system. Once you use the Danleys in a few different venues, you can judge for yourself if keeping a smaller self powered system makes sense for you.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 24, 2019, 05:31:28 pm
If you can swing it, get the Danleys but keep a self powered speaker system appropriate for use in the small and mid size bars.
You will probably want to get the Danley system up and running before selling your existing system. Once you use the Danleys in a few different venues, you can judge for yourself if keeping a smaller self powered system makes sense for you.

I'd keep either the SRX812p's or the DSR112's and either the SRX818's or the PRX718xlf's for small clubs - at least to start. 
One of the reasons I like the the PRX's for smaller shows is because of their shape. In small venues they don't take up too much space. The SRX 818's stick out a lot more ( but actually are almost identical in size overall).
If I then find that moving the TH118 around isn't an issue, I could then sell everything else and start to take one TH118 to the small shows. This would allow so much more room in my garage ... it's been years.....

It's going to be the weight of those subs that Chris might not like too much so I need to sell them to him at 160lbs - Rob's post is good.
We don't have a ramp like Rob but we move the SRX828 around quite easily between us which is 145lbs plus the weight of after market wheels so probably 155lbs total - within 5 lbs of the TH118.
We have become spoiled with the SRX boxes - at least weight wise....
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ed Hall on September 24, 2019, 05:35:49 pm
How would  a pair of the TH118, with pair of SM80's compare to what I have now -SRX828sp, 2x SRX818sp and 2 x SRX815p in terms of SPL?   
I compared my SRX812p with pair of SM80 a few years ago and the SM80's in comparison seemed to go on forever. We had them side by side outdoors and I could easily walk almost twice as far from the SM80's before I lost them. It was quite eye opening and I never forgot it. The SRX subs I use (basically 4 x 18's) do a really good job for my biggest shows but if I got a pair of the TH118's, would they go as loud / louder?

It's often been said here that 2 TH118 are not enough to keep up with 2 SM80's. Two TH118's per SM80 is a better ratio. Especially outdoors. That's what I'm looking at when I get there. 2 SM80's, 4 TH118's and a DNA20K4.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 24, 2019, 06:10:39 pm
It's often been said here that 2 TH118 are not enough to keep up with 2 SM80's. Two TH118's per SM80 is a better ratio. Especially outdoors. That's what I'm looking at when I get there. 2 SM80's, 4 TH118's and a DNA20K4.

Yes but that is true of most matched systems.... 4 subs to 2 tops to get the most out of the tops . I can get my SRX812's turned up nice and high when I use 4 x 18's  subs. Other times I just match the tops to the subs. If I do go down the Danley road, I doubt I'd 'need' anymore than just the 2 subs total.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Keith Broughton on September 24, 2019, 06:27:25 pm
It's often been said here that 2 TH118 are not enough to keep up with 2 SM80's.
While that's true, I would imagine that 2 TH118 cabs would do most bar gigs so, turn down the SM80s. ;)
I did hear a 2 80 over 4 118 system outdoors and was very impressed!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Jonathan Betts on September 24, 2019, 06:35:59 pm
We regularly do small bar/wedding gigs with just one TH 118.

Go for it Debbie!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ed Hall on September 24, 2019, 07:06:19 pm
I doubt I'd 'need' anymore than just the 2 subs total.
"Need"?  What does that have to do with G.A.S.? ? ?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 24, 2019, 07:50:06 pm
"Need"?  What does that have to do with G.A.S.? ? ?

You are right Ed - those 2 phrases shouldn't appear in the same thread.....
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 24, 2019, 09:35:12 pm
It's often been said here that 2 TH118 are not enough to keep up with 2 SM80's. Two TH118's per SM80 is a better ratio. Especially outdoors. That's what I'm looking at when I get there. 2 SM80's, 4 TH118's and a DNA20K4.
I just got there.  Going to test it this weekend and crank it next weekend.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Caleb Dueck on September 24, 2019, 10:26:10 pm
It's often been said here that 2 TH118 are not enough to keep up with 2 SM80's. Two TH118's per SM80 is a better ratio. Especially outdoors. That's what I'm looking at when I get there. 2 SM80's, 4 TH118's and a DNA20K4.

2-3 TH118XL's per SM80.  More sub is always more better, especially outdoors. 
It's quite difficult to have too much sub :)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Rob Spence on September 24, 2019, 11:46:30 pm
I'd keep either the SRX812p's or the DSR112's and either the SRX818's or the PRX718xlf's for small clubs - at least to start. 
One of the reasons I like the the PRX's for smaller shows is because of their shape. In small venues they don't take up too much space. The SRX 818's stick out a lot more ( but actually are almost identical in size overall).
If I then find that moving the TH118 around isn't an issue, I could then sell everything else and start to take one TH118 to the small shows. This would allow so much more room in my garage ... it's been years.....

It's going to be the weight of those subs that Chris might not like too much so I need to sell them to him at 160lbs - Rob's post is good.
We don't have a ramp like Rob but we move the SRX828 around quite easily between us which is 145lbs plus the weight of after market wheels so probably 155lbs total - within 5 lbs of the TH118.
We have become spoiled with the SRX boxes - at least weight wise....

The neat thing about the TH118 is that it is like having a built in hand truck to move em.

Just put a foot behind a wheel and pull back on the handle till balanced and off you go.
Perhaps a small foldable wheelchair ramp for your trailer? Wheels & the inclined plane are your friend.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Olewiler on September 25, 2019, 07:21:24 am
2-3 TH118XL's per SM80.  More sub is always more better, especially outdoors. 
It's quite difficult to have too much sub :)

That way you can make sure the kick drum and the bass guitar are louder than those pesky vocals. Who wants to hear the words anyways?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Slater on September 25, 2019, 08:04:03 am
How would  a pair of the TH118, with pair of SM80's compare to what I have now -SRX828sp, 2x SRX818sp and 2 x SRX815p in terms of SPL?   
I compared my SRX812p with pair of SM80 a few years ago and the SM80's in comparison seemed to go on forever. We had them side by side outdoors and I could easily walk almost twice as far from the SM80's before I lost them. It was quite eye opening and I never forgot it. The SRX subs I use (basically 4 x 18's) do a really good job for my biggest shows but if I got a pair of the TH118's, would they go as loud / louder?

I have SRX835p (x2) over SRX828p(x2) and have a Danley SM80/TH118 rig.  While the SRX is nice, the Danley sounds cleaner over longer distances, and the subs go lower.  They can also be moved without a second person if needed, and are easier to manage than the SRX rig is.  I use 2 TH118s in smaller areas, and 4 TH118s in larger areas, and run them on their own channel so that I can easily adjust how much is needed.

You won't regret doing this, so go for it!  ;D
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Slater on September 25, 2019, 08:16:55 am
I don't know... I enjoyed running my dLive FX plugin hypabass adding 18-36hz in my TH118's at the last gig :)
oodles of fun.

I've seen that effect, but have never actually tried it.  I might have to experiment with that sometime.  :)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: John Halliburton on September 25, 2019, 08:52:33 am
Going from your current JBL system to a Danley system is worth it if you are doing outdoor concerts and nice rooms.  If you are mostly playing in noisy bars, I wouldnít spend the money to make the move. Danleys are not a magic bullet for a bad room or environment.
I use the SM80s at the two outdoor summer concert series that I do. I use the K-Arrays almost exclusively for all the indoor concerts I do.

Couldn't disagree more.  My Danley rigs cut thru the muck much better, and they're exactly a magic bullet for a bad room.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Mike Monte on September 25, 2019, 09:05:44 am
I get my fair share of outdoor shows

I, like many people, am intrigued by the Danley 80's you all are talking about, however, looking at the shape of the cab, I am wondering if anyone has a neat way of strapping one of those cabs to a sub in a ground-stack scenario?  To me, outdoor gigs usually mean "wind" (besides rain/bugs/mud/locust/famine - lol).  In all seriousness: It seems that the shape of the cab makes strapping an issue....plus the cabs look like they would "catch the wind" pretty easily.
users: What have you found to be the best way to secure them? 
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Taylor Hall on September 25, 2019, 09:48:31 am
I, like many people, am intrigued by the Danley 80's you all are talking about, however, looking at the shape of the cab, I am wondering if anyone has a neat way of strapping one of those cabs to a sub in a ground-stack scenario?  To me, outdoor gigs usually mean "wind" (besides rain/bugs/mud/locust/famine - lol).  In all seriousness: It seems that the shape of the cab makes strapping an issue....plus the cabs look like they would "catch the wind" pretty easily.
users: What have you found to be the best way to secure them?
The SM80 has multiple integrated handles top and bottom, so strapping them down would be no more difficult than any other point source with handles. Lord knows I've had to come up with some creative strapping solutions in the past which would have been no issue SM80. They also have a pole cup on the bottom so when used in conjunction with any other sub that also has a pole cup, you're good to go.
I feel like the overall shape wouldn't make it more prone to catching the wind than any other cabinet. Head-on would be my only concern, but so long as you're using an appropriately set up tripod/crankup or pole on a ground stack you'd be fine. A 50mph gust of wind would exert about 25lbs of force across the face of the cabinet, so more than a lightweight tripod could handle, but nowhere near enough to send a properly strapped stack toppling over.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Nathan Riddle on September 25, 2019, 10:49:15 am
I've seen that effect, but have never actually tried it.  I might have to experiment with that sometime.  :)

you totally should. put in infra mode and turn the boost & infra level all the way up (or thereabouts) then sub level to zero; return to a channel and boomsauce awesome pantleg shaking bass :)

I had lots of headroom with my TH118's in a small-ish bar so I didn't mind flexing sub low octave bass a bit :)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Roch Lafleur on September 25, 2019, 04:12:33 pm
I sold my QRX rig (4x212, 4x 218) in 2015 and replaced it with 4 x TH118s and 2 x SM80s. Outdoor shows almost always get 4 subs. Depending on the stage layout, either 2 per side, 4 across the front or 2 over 2 centre clustered (my favorite set up). Indoors, it depends on the size of room and material being played. I usually mount the SM80s on Duratruss 3900 stands, but if setting the subs under the tops, I'll use K&M telescopic poles into the subs. I always use the BT tilters. Angling the tops down helps in many cases, but it also prevents the tops from spinning around. I have also strapped down the SM80s on scaffolding.

I also have a smaller system consisting of 2 EV SBa760 subs and PRX615 which gets used in smaller clubs (>120pax) where space is at a premium. I have used the PRX over TH118 but there is absolutely no comparison to the SM80s. Even compared to the QRX212 (which I loved), the SM80 remain crystal clear no matter how far back you go (within reason - these are not Jerico!). And these little suckers are loud. I've had more than a few BEs advancing a show and go "so basically what you're telling me is that you have speakers on sticks?". I always tell them the same thing "technically, yes, but please judge with your ears and not your eyes." Once they get to hear the system they are like "yeah, this will work", and they cannot believe those little boxes are a single 12" and the subs are single 18s.

One word of caution, although the SM80s are somewhat light, you either need to get onto a case (or 2nd sub) to put it on a pole, or have 2 almost 6' tall individuals. I'm 6' and a fairly strong (big) guy, but holding the balance at the top of my reach with another guy is always a little stressful. Much easier if we have something to climb on. The BT Tilters also add a few inches.

With all that said, I have zero regrets with my little Danley rig and get excited everytime I get to mix on/play through it. It's perfect for the size of shows I do (mainly smaller festivals, country fairs).

R
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on September 25, 2019, 07:08:05 pm
Couldn't disagree more.  My Danley rigs cut thru the muck much better, and they're exactly a magic bullet for a bad room.

Best regards,

John
I have never found that you can fix a truly poor acoustic space with electronics.
I have had SM80s in bad rooms and the sound is still bad.
In bar situations there is always the power struggle. Crowd is loud, turn up the music, crowd gets louder. I wouldnít spend the money to put a premium system in a noisy bar enviorment. Thatís what JBLs are for.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: John Halliburton on September 26, 2019, 08:52:01 am
I have never found that you can fix a truly poor acoustic space with electronics.
I have had SM80s in bad rooms and the sound is still bad.
In bar situations there is always the power struggle. Crowd is loud, turn up the music, crowd gets louder. I wouldnít spend the money to put a premium system in a noisy bar enviorment. Thatís what JBLs are for.

But when you put a pair of speakers up that have better broad band directivity and better clarity, one is not trying to improve the sound of a bad room thru electronics, but thru better acoustic tools and theory.

Crowd noise comes with any gig, and at some point you just can't worry about it anymore.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 26, 2019, 11:54:45 am
But when you put a pair of speakers up that have better broad band directivity and better clarity, one is not trying to improve the sound of a bad room thru electronics, but thru better acoustic tools and theory.

Crowd noise comes with any gig, and at some point you just can't worry about it anymore.

Best regards,

John
+1

It isn't the air in the room that's bad, It's the walls.
If you can keep the sound on the waterbags, it can mitigate much of the problem.
The Danley tops have fabulous directivity.  Angle them down and you're even better.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Chris Hindle on September 26, 2019, 12:22:58 pm
But when you put a pair of speakers up that have better broad band directivity and better clarity, one is not trying to improve the sound of a bad room thru electronics, but thru better acoustic tools and theory.

Crowd noise comes with any gig, and at some point you just can't worry about it anymore.

Best regards,

John
And don't forget, a speaker that actually puts sound where you need it, and not bouncing off the walls and ceiling will always "sound better", no matter the other room factors.
Chris.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Art Welter on September 26, 2019, 12:53:35 pm
Crowd noise comes with any gig, and at some point you just can't worry about it anymore.
Or get above it with a single 12" speaker per side...
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Jonathan Betts on September 26, 2019, 01:55:57 pm
The Sm 80/TH118 rig performs much better in this crappy room compared to our JBL SRX systems.

https://youtu.be/GUvHTf-79qM
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Rick Powell on September 26, 2019, 06:02:31 pm
When I put my Danley system together, it wasnít for the purpose of making money. I was just tired of playing on various owned or hired systems with varying degrees of quality and wanting to aim for consistency and quality where I couldnít blame the equipment. It fulfilled the need, but had the added bonus of being really flexible and capable for a range of shows including outdoors. Now my son has pretty much taken over the system and hires it out so much that I need to reserve it 6 months ahead for my own gigs🤪! A nice problem to have. 

I do agree with the comment about the SM80s being a little unwieldy for on person to set on speaker poles. My son can do it by jumping on top of the TH118 and pulling them up, but dad always gets a helper.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Thomas Le on September 27, 2019, 11:08:11 am
Debbie, not related to speakers, but G.A.S. is getting on to me in the form of looking around fleabay for a QU16, LOL! I'm currently waiting on the seller to respond to my offer.  :o
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on September 27, 2019, 03:46:10 pm
+1

It isn't the air in the room that's bad, It's the walls.
If you can keep the sound on the waterbags, it can mitigate much of the problem.
The Danley tops have fabulous directivity.  Angle them down and you're even better.

How do you keep the lower frequencies produced by the subs, the sound coming from the guitar amp, bass amp, drum set, and stage monitors off the walls and ceiling?
Putting a pair of speakers on tall poles angled downwards will not control the above mentioned sources of sound that are already bouncing off the walls and ceiling.


Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 27, 2019, 04:08:08 pm
I'd go with 2x SM80's and 2x TH118's. Amp wise I'm thinking the DNA10K amp. I sold all my amps but one when I went powered so now I only have a Crown XLS2000 as  a spare.
How do you guys with Danley systems get on with other amps?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: John L Nobile on September 27, 2019, 04:24:55 pm
I'd go with 2x SM80's and 2x TH118's. Amp wise I'm thinking the DNA10K amp. I sold all my amps but one when I went powered so now I only have a Crown XLS2000 as  a spare.
How do you guys with Danley systems get on with other amps?

When I got our speakers, the amps were not available. If they were available I would have got them in a heartbeat. I did get a Xilica DSP which I believe was what the Danley DSP was. I wound up getting LabGruppen amps (pre Behringer) so I can't complain. They've been excellent.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Corey Scogin on September 27, 2019, 04:29:41 pm
How do you guys with Danley systems get on with other amps?

I use 2x QSC PLD4.5's.
Each runs one top and one sub.
Each sub gets 3 channels in parallel configuration. Each top gets one channel. I'd like to add another amp and use all four channels per sub.

No matter what, I'd recommend 2 amps just for the sake of having a backup. I don't like the idea of only having one amp and no spares. In my arrangement, I could run the whole system off of one amp if one dies. Limping along at lower volume is better than not making sound at all. In truth, it would't really be limping that much. You could do the same (but with more power) with two DNA10Ks.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ivan Beaver on September 27, 2019, 04:56:24 pm
I'd go with 2x SM80's and 2x TH118's. Amp wise I'm thinking the DNA10K amp. I sold all my amps but one when I went powered so now I only have a Crown XLS2000 as  a spare.
How do you guys with Danley systems get on with other amps?
If the system is just the 2 subs and 2 tops, then a decent sized 2 channel amp that is comfortable at 2 ohms will get you by in mono.  Subs on one channel, tops on the other.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on September 27, 2019, 05:03:59 pm
I'd go with 2x SM80's and 2x TH118's. Amp wise I'm thinking the DNA10K amp. I sold all my amps but one when I went powered so now I only have a Crown XLS2000 as  a spare.
How do you guys with Danley systems get on with other amps?
I am using QSC PLX3602 to power the SM80s. Both speakers could be powered by a single amp but as Corey recommends, I use two amps. I position each amp next to the speaker it is driving. This keeps the speaker cable short and I have two amps already on stage and operating in case one amp weíre to fail.  I believe you can order the TH118 with plate amps installed by Danley if you want to go that route.

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Mark Scrivener on September 27, 2019, 05:05:45 pm
I'd go with 2x SM80's and 2x TH118's. Amp wise I'm thinking the DNA10K amp. I sold all my amps but one when I went powered so now I only have a Crown XLS2000 as  a spare.
How do you guys with Danley systems get on with other amps?

Just curious, what sort of ball bark total are we talking for 2x SM80's, 2x TH118's, 2x DNA10K's, speaker cables, covers, stands, etc? Asking for a friend ;-)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Steve Crump on September 27, 2019, 05:20:15 pm
Just curious, what sort of ball bark total are we talking for 2x SM80's, 2x TH118's, 2x DNA10K's, speaker cables, covers, stands, etc? Asking for a friend ;-)



Get a quote from one of the dealers on this forum. I think Mike Pyle can help with that. Then there is no guess work.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Mike Pyle on September 27, 2019, 05:22:26 pm
Just curious, what sort of ball bark total are we talking for 2x SM80's, 2x TH118's, 2x DNA10K's, speaker cables, covers, stands, etc? Asking for a friend ;-)

Check your pm's. ;)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 27, 2019, 05:28:10 pm
Just curious, what sort of ball bark total are we talking for 2x SM80's, 2x TH118's, 2x DNA10K's, speaker cables, covers, stands, etc? Asking for a friend ;-)

I am working with Mike Pyle..... reach out to him.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Rick Powell on September 27, 2019, 06:01:03 pm
I'd go with 2x SM80's and 2x TH118's. Amp wise I'm thinking the DNA10K amp. I sold all my amps but one when I went powered so now I only have a Crown XLS2000 as  a spare.
How do you guys with Danley systems get on with other amps?

Crown ITech 6000 on the TH118s, Crown xti4000 on the SM80s. Use the internal processing with settings provided by other users. I spent about $2k total on them, both used in good condition.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 27, 2019, 06:49:53 pm
The DNA has the presets for their speakers. 
Specific limiters for the speakers in question.
It also has current DRAW limiting, so if you're stuck on a 15 or 20 amp circuit, you can keep from popping breakers.
But once, cry once.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Mark Scrivener on September 28, 2019, 12:15:54 am
Check your pm's. ;)

Thanks Mike!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Slater on September 28, 2019, 07:28:00 am
How do you guys with Danley systems get on with other amps?

I use a Crown I-Tech 9000HD for the SM80s, and a I-Tech 12000-HD (or I-Tech 8000) for each pair of TH118s.  They work really well with the Danleys once you get them setup.  I was able to get my settings from Jonathan Betts, and Ivan.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 28, 2019, 11:04:37 am
I am using QSC PLX3602 to power the SM80s. Both speakers could be powered by a single amp but as Corey recommends, I use two amps. I position each amp next to the speaker it is driving. This keeps the speaker cable short and I have two amps already on stage and operating in case one amp weíre to fail.  I believe you can order the TH118 with plate amps installed by Danley if you want to go that route.

I like the idea of positioning an amp per side - not only would it shorten the SpeakOn cable lengths but it would mean I could use my D Snake outs for one side just like I do with my powered set up - so I'd rely on XLR's for the most part keeping SpeakOns to a minimum. It would be like using a powered system but with the amps just outside the cabs. 
I must admit I have really enjoyed using powered speakers for this reason. Running power to each stack is second nature so that is never a chore. SpeakOns are so heavy and I find them much more difficult to coil after a show.
Only thing is I really like the idea of the DNA amps but would need 2 if I were to adopt this method - this is getting expensive -LOL
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on September 28, 2019, 11:11:29 am
How about a pair of Powersoft T602? One behind each stack would do the job. Output power is 2x 1300/2500/3000w into 8/4/2ohm, both channels driven. If you drive them asymmetrically (ie, bi-amped operation), it'll do something like 4KW into 2ohm on one channel.

Chris
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Geert Friedhof on September 28, 2019, 11:14:43 am
Got to pay if you wanna play...
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 28, 2019, 11:19:57 am
I have limited knowledge of amps really - my last passive system was SRX700 and I had the tops bi-amped and used 3 amps - low, mid and high. I used a DBX drive rack to JBL specs. With that said, once I had it set up, I didn't really think about it.
So....I don't fully understand what this means Chris....
If you drive them asymmetrically (ie, bi-amped operation), it'll do something like 4KW into 2ohm on one channel.




Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 28, 2019, 11:38:23 am
Got to pay if you wanna play...

To an extent. There are many members here getting great results by using other amps.
Considering I would have to purchase 2 amps to configure in this way, I'd still have to spend the same or more than I would getting the 1 DNA amp.  It's not like I am considering using an 'I puke' amp or similar . If I'm going to do this- I'm going to do it right. However, there are still options.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Taylor Hall on September 28, 2019, 11:45:25 am
I have limited knowledge of amps really - my last passive system was SRX700 and I had the tops bi-amped and used 3 amps - low, mid and high. I used a DBX drive rack to JBL specs. With that said, once I had it set up, I didn't really think about it.
So....I don't fully understand what this means Chris....
Basically it it allows the amp to portion its output power in order to send it where it is needed more. So if your low/mid is on ch1 and ch3 and your highs are on ch2 and ch4, as you reduce output to your high channels, your low/mid channels will be able to use that extra power. So under certain loads it can get you as much as 500W (I forget the amount of gain reduction they used for that figure, I think it was around 5-6db so YMMV depending on how your rig is ultimately set up).
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 28, 2019, 12:29:03 pm
I like one amp.
Two amps weigh more than the long Speakon cables
It's also simpler.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Rick Powell on September 28, 2019, 02:33:42 pm
To an extent. There are many members here getting great results by using other amps.
Considering I would have to purchase 2 amps to configure in this way, I'd still have to spend the same or more than I would getting the 1 DNA amp.  It's not like I am considering using an 'I puke' amp or similar . If I'm going to do this- I'm going to do it right. However, there are still options.

Based on what Iíve seen, if I were buying on a tight budget, Iíd probably opt for something like the QSC PLD 4.5 if buying new, and the DNA 20k4 if I could swing the bigger budget. As you say, many good results with a variety of new and ďvintageĒ power.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on September 28, 2019, 02:56:20 pm
I have limited knowledge of amps really - my last passive system was SRX700 and I had the tops bi-amped and used 3 amps - low, mid and high. I used a DBX drive rack to JBL specs. With that said, once I had it set up, I didn't really think about it.
So....I don't fully understand what this means Chris....

The way Powersoft do it is they run alternate channels at -6dB, and test maximum output power, to emulate what would happen if you were, for example, running tweeters on Ch1 and midbass on Ch2. It's a useful data point, as well as the "all channels driven" numbers.
In the case of 2x SM80 and 2x TH118, that would probably apply.

You could run the entire thing on a single T604, but a pair of T602s would mean you can keep SpeakOn cables nice and short, and you get 3dB more grunt.
If you'll only ever have 2x TH118, I'd get the 4ohm model. If there are plans to expand, go for 8ohm.

FWIW, when I was looking around at amps, a T604 was quite a lot cheaper than a PLD4.5. I don't know the pricing situation in the States, though.

Chris
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Caleb Dueck on September 28, 2019, 04:21:45 pm
I'd go with 2x SM80's and 2x TH118's. Amp wise I'm thinking the DNA10K amp. I sold all my amps but one when I went powered so now I only have a Crown XLS2000 as  a spare.
How do you guys with Danley systems get on with other amps?

DNA20k isn't much more money and will power the subs better. 

Powersoft and Lab PLM are other options.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Bolt on September 28, 2019, 04:40:33 pm
To an extent. There are many members here getting great results by using other amps.
Considering I would have to purchase 2 amps to configure in this way, I'd still have to spend the same or more than I would getting the 1 DNA amp.  It's not like I am considering using an 'I puke' amp or similar . If I'm going to do this- I'm going to do it right. However, there are still options.

Amp racks and speak-on cables!  I agree.  I have been running the care-free life of powered speakers for so long, I had forgotten what a PITA 4 50' long speak-on cables were to roll and pack .... especially the sub ones which were 12ga.  If I were to do passive again, I would definitely go 1 amp per side to avoid that ... but then would need either another 4 speak-on cables that were long, OR a spare amp just to be sure.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 28, 2019, 07:19:57 pm
I DID IT!  I spoke with Mike and we are moving ahead!

2 X TH118
2 X SM80
2 X T602 (thanks Chris Grimshaw)
Covers for everything but the amps (for now).
Just need to work out what I need in SpeakOns ...
WOOP WOOP...

Anyone interested in an SRX rig?

(When Chris and I get evicted, is anyone willing to take 2 adults, 3 dogs and a cat? OH and a nice Danley system?)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 28, 2019, 08:19:08 pm
WooHoo! ;D ;D
Corngranulations Debbie!
Just spent the morning tuning my rig and it's amazing!

I think you need to change the title on this post, as you have caught it too. :o
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Jonathan Betts on September 28, 2019, 08:47:42 pm
Nice move Debbie!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 28, 2019, 09:07:23 pm
Amp racks and speak-on cables!  I agree.  I have been running the care-free life of powered speakers for so long, I had forgotten what a PITA 4 50' long speak-on cables were to roll and pack .... especially the sub ones which were 12ga.  If I were to do passive again, I would definitely go 1 amp per side to avoid that ... but then would need either another 4 speak-on cables that were long, OR a spare amp just to be sure.

I'll use short SpeakOns doing things this way with an amp per side but I'll need at least one long one so that if I had an amp go down and had to power both sides from just one amp, I'd have the cabling to do so. Hopefully it will never need to be used though.... I look forward to coiling short SpeakOn cables .... I have really enjoyed my powered system for this reason but an amp per side is a pretty good compromise to get a system of this quality.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 28, 2019, 09:08:27 pm
WooHoo! ;D ;D
Corngranulations Debbie!
Just spent the morning tuning my rig and it's amazing!

I think you need to change the title on this post, as you have caught it too. :o

Thanks Dave - you have 4 subs so I bet your system is stupid loud!
I intend to blame Chris entirely for this moment of weakness......
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 28, 2019, 09:09:26 pm
Nice move Debbie!
Thanks Jonathan... I hope to be able to ask for your help in setting up the Powersofts for the Danley System...
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Rick Powell on September 28, 2019, 11:27:32 pm
Congrats and welcome to the club, youíll love the oomph you can get outdoors. We have the rig cranking tonite in the little town of Toulon, IL on a chilly September night!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Rob Spence on September 29, 2019, 12:02:09 am
I DID IT!  I spoke with Mike and we are moving ahead!

2 X TH118
2 X SM80
2 X T602 (thanks Chris Grimshaw)
Covers for everything but the amps (for now).
Just need to work out what I need in SpeakOns ...
WOOP WOOP...

Anyone interested in an SRX rig?

(When Chris and I get evicted, is anyone willing to take 2 adults, 3 dogs and a cat? OH and a nice Danley system?)

Wow. Congratulations! I am jealous.

You may be able to save some weight by using #12 for the subs and lighter gage for the longer cable to the tops.

Also, for the situation where you want to use one amp, a single #13/4 cable with breakouts for the ends?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Mark Scrivener on September 29, 2019, 02:29:08 am
Awesome!

Just remember, if that backup long SpeakOn becomes too much of a hassle, you can get rid of it for the mere price of an extra T602 :-)

And speaking of which, what was the deciding factor in choosing the Powersoft over the Danley amp?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on September 29, 2019, 04:49:01 am

And speaking of which, what was the deciding factor in choosing the Powersoft over the Danley amp?

I'd guess it was the ability to effectively split the Danley amp in half, and drop half by each stack. There's also the built-in redundancy - a single T602 could run the lot, albeit in mono.

Chris

Late Edit - Debbie, when it comes to SpeakOn cables, all you should need are two short ones (say, 3') to run to the subs, and two longer ones (say, 10') to run up the stands to the mains. All 2-core. 2.5mm cable will do the job just fine.
I think you'll be pleased with the T602s.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 29, 2019, 09:52:49 am
I'd guess it was the ability to effectively split the Danley amp in half, and drop half by each stack. There's also the built-in redundancy - a single T602 could run the lot, albeit in mono.

Chris

Late Edit - Debbie, when it comes to SpeakOn cables, all you should need are two short ones (say, 3') to run to the subs, and two longer ones (say, 10') to run up the stands to the mains. All 2-core. 2.5mm cable will do the job just fine.
I think you'll be pleased with the T602s.

Yes Chris this was EXACTLY my reasoning. Thanks for the advice on the Speakons. Just to be safe I'd also need one long 4 pole and a short jumper so if I did have an amp go down, I'd have the length to cover that situation. I'd hope to never have to use it!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 29, 2019, 09:58:57 am
Wow. Congratulations! I am jealous.

You may be able to save some weight by using #12 for the subs and lighter gage for the longer cable to the tops.

Also, for the situation where you want to use one amp, a single #13/4 cable with breakouts for the ends?

You have Danley too - right? Why jealous? LOL ... thanks Rob.

Yes I can go lighter gauge on the short cables thank goodness. My old SRX700 system - I had the traditional amp rack stage side and
it was like coiling up pythons at the end of the night and my arms would ache the next day.
When i went powered, it was a joy to coil up XLRs so being able to keep to shorter, lighter SpeakOns this time around is a relief and really
the only reason I didn't get the Danley amp.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 29, 2019, 09:59:19 am
Congrats and welcome to the club, youíll love the oomph you can get outdoors. We have the rig cranking tonite in the little town of Toulon, IL on a chilly September night!

Thanks Rick
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 29, 2019, 10:02:05 am
Thanks Dave - you have 4 subs so I bet your system is stupid loud!
I intend to blame Chris entirely for this moment of weakness......

Also let's not forget he is a bass player who doesn't use backline so the PA IS his bass rig. So he has a HUGE vested interest in this purchase..
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Roland Clarke on September 29, 2019, 10:11:05 am
Congratulations!  The tapped horns are great, one will be more than enough in a bar gig, Iíve had to turn down in a 25m x 80m space with two due to noise limits.  It might be worth looking at a couple of small powered for smaller bar gigs.  This would give you the option for something lighter to carry in given situations.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 29, 2019, 10:31:20 am
Congratulations!  The tapped horns are great, one will be more than enough in a bar gig, Iíve had to turn down in a 25m x 80m space with two due to noise limits.  It might be worth looking at a couple of small powered for smaller bar gigs.  This would give you the option for something lighter to carry in given situations.

I am so excited!!.... For now I am keeping my JBL PRX718xlf / Yamaha DSR112 rig for small bars and selling all my SRX pieces.
We have our last outdoor show of the year this coming weekend with the SRX and I'm going to take some good photos of the system.
I'm also putting an ad in Craigslist to advertise the system with some basic photos and inviting anyone to come down to the show to hear it.
I can get by with my PRX/DSR rig till the Danley arrives so selling the SRX shouldn't a be problem.

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: John Halliburton on September 29, 2019, 10:44:45 am
I DID IT!  I spoke with Mike and we are moving ahead!

2 X TH118
2 X SM80
2 X T602 (thanks Chris Grimshaw)
Covers for everything but the amps (for now).
Just need to work out what I need in SpeakOns ...
WOOP WOOP...

Anyone interested in an SRX rig?

(When Chris and I get evicted, is anyone willing to take 2 adults, 3 dogs and a cat? OH and a nice Danley system?)

Congratulations.  As the SM80/TH115 has been my "big rig" for a while now, you will be impressed at what it can do.  Bit less to manage logistically too, which this "halfway to 62" year old appreciates more and more.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 29, 2019, 11:15:46 am
So Debbie, now for a bit of homework:  how does the purchase of all the gear before you made the Danley Decision total up to?  All the JBL/Yamaha and any extras needed to make them work... and comparison to what the Danley priced out at...  You don't need to show the specifics of your deal with Mike or anything private, but trying to see if the 3dB$ works here, or if Buy Once, Cry Once shows the investments to be similar.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Roland Clarke on September 29, 2019, 12:39:34 pm
I hazard at a guess the Danley system is around £15k, perhaps a bit more with the two powersoft amps not sure how this equates in Dollars.  SRX about £6-7k, in the U.K. less in the States.  I think the Danley probably is the best bang for the buck, JTR system would be what, about $10k?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on September 29, 2019, 01:52:52 pm
It has always surprised me that it would take four TH118 to keep up with a pair of SM80. According to the Danley literature, "In many cases a single TH118 will take the
place of 2 standard 2x18Ē front loaded cabinets." So a single TH118 should have similar output to both of your SRX828 combined!
Running two TH118 will be like having four SRX828!
https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/TH118-Specs-V2.0-1.pdf

What are your plans in regard to getting the SM80 up in the air and tilted down? Are you planning on using speaker stands or sub poles?
The SM80 has an 80X80 dispersion so once they are up in the air they will be putting as much sound on the ceiling as they do on the audience unless you tilt them down.
The best solution for tilting down an SM80 seems to be the Nimrod bt-12 as it keeps the center of gravity centered over the stand. http://www.bt-12.com/about.php
You might want to get a pair on order as I believe they ship from the UK.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Mike Pyle on September 29, 2019, 02:11:25 pm

The best solution for tilting down an SM80 seems to be the Nimrod bt-12 as it keeps the center of gravity centered over the stand. http://www.bt-12.com/about.php
You might want to get a pair on order as I believe they ship from the UK.

An alternative would be the Stagehand Systems Anglers sold by LAB member Dave Garoutte.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 29, 2019, 03:25:19 pm
It has always surprised me that it would take four TH118 to keep up with a pair of SM80. According to the Danley literature, "In many cases a single TH118 will take the
place of 2 standard 2x18Ē front loaded cabinets." So a single TH118 should have similar output to both of your SRX828 combined!
Running two TH118 will be like having four SRX828!
https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/TH118-Specs-V2.0-1.pdf

What are your plans in regard to getting the SM80 up in the air and tilted down? Are you planning on using speaker stands or sub poles?
The SM80 has an 80X80 dispersion so once they are up in the air they will be putting as much sound on the ceiling as they do on the audience unless you tilt them down.
The best solution for tilting down an SM80 seems to be the Nimrod bt-12 as it keeps the center of gravity centered over the stand. http://www.bt-12.com/about.php
You might want to get a pair on order as I believe they ship from the UK.

This is more about how powerful the SM80s are than how 'weak' the TH118s are ( they are NOT!).
We did some tuning yesterday in the parking lot and one SM80 has no problem with two THs.
My Angler also helped bringing the edge of the sound field closer to the 'stage', perhaps not requiring front fills.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Bolt on September 29, 2019, 03:27:37 pm
I'll use short SpeakOns doing things this way with an amp per side but I'll need at least one long one so that if I had an amp go down and had to power both sides from just one amp, I'd have the cabling to do so. Hopefully it will never need to be used though.... I look forward to coiling short SpeakOn cables .... I have really enjoyed my powered system for this reason but an amp per side is a pretty good compromise to get a system of this quality.
That sounds like an excellent plan.

For every gig I do where I am tickling the limiters on my PRX subs, I will envy you :)

Really really nice Rig Debbie.

Are you planning on getting small cases for the amps?  I am just remembering a gig where the back of the tent poured water onto the top of my amp rack which blessedly prevented my 2 QSC PLX 3000's and 1 Crown K2 from getting soaked.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on September 29, 2019, 04:19:27 pm
My Angler also helped bringing the edge of the sound field closer to the 'stage', perhaps not requiring front fills.

When you put a product on the market such as your Angler, did you have to have an organization such as UL do testing to determine the load capacity and make sure it is safe to use for it's intended purpose in order to get a product liability policy?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 29, 2019, 05:49:09 pm
So Debbie, now for a bit of homework:  how does the purchase of all the gear before you made the Danley Decision total up to?  All the JBL/Yamaha and any extras needed to make them work... and comparison to what the Danley priced out at...  You don't need to show the specifics of your deal with Mike or anything private, but trying to see if the 3dB$ works here, or if Buy Once, Cry Once shows the investments to be similar.

Well all I can say Tim is that I wish I'd gone for the Danley system years ago before I got the SRX system. Now I lose money selling used of course.
Although the pieces are pricey compared to MI gear, you get what you pay for. As Chris always says, " If you want a plump turkey, you gotta pay for a plump turkey".
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 29, 2019, 05:52:02 pm
It has always surprised me that it would take four TH118 to keep up with a pair of SM80. According to the Danley literature, "In many cases a single TH118 will take the
place of 2 standard 2x18Ē front loaded cabinets." So a single TH118 should have similar output to both of your SRX828 combined!
Running two TH118 will be like having four SRX828!
https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/TH118-Specs-V2.0-1.pdf


This is mind blowing but I have been told this more than once!



What are your plans in regard to getting the SM80 up in the air and tilted down? Are you planning on using speaker stands or sub poles?
The SM80 has an 80X80 dispersion so once they are up in the air they will be putting as much sound on the ceiling as they do on the audience unless you tilt them down.
The best solution for tilting down an SM80 seems to be the Nimrod bt-12 as it keeps the center of gravity centered over the stand. http://www.bt-12.com/about.php
You might want to get a pair on order as I believe they ship from the UK.


Thanks for the heads-up...I have Dave garoutte's Anglers so they will do the job perfectly!!!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 29, 2019, 05:53:38 pm
That sounds like an excellent plan.

For every gig I do where I am tickling the limiters on my PRX subs, I will envy you :)

Really really nice Rig Debbie.

Are you planning on getting small cases for the amps?  I am just remembering a gig where the back of the tent poured water onto the top of my amp rack which blessedly prevented my 2 QSC PLX 3000's and 1 Crown K2 from getting soaked.

Yes I'll need cases.  I case EVERYTHING!!
The T602 is so small though so a rack case almost seems overkill. Not sure what I'll be doing there yet.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 29, 2019, 06:21:13 pm
When you put a product on the market such as your Angler, did you have to have an organization such as UL do testing to determine the load capacity and make sure it is safe to use for it's intended purpose in order to get a product liability policy?
No.
I do my own testing, use high quality materials and over-engineer everything.
The cost of UL listing for such a small market makes it impossible to do so.
I have 100% confidence in my products.
BTW, the other product that serves the same function does not claim to be UL listed.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on September 29, 2019, 07:30:58 pm
Thanks for the heads-up...I have Dave garoutte's Anglers so they will do the job perfectly!!!

Dave's Anglers look really sweet. I watched the youtube video that Corey made showing the operation of the Angler. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpw_seXbJ4k
The Anglers serve the same purpose as the Nimrods but with a much simpler design. Simpler is oft times better.
The Nimrods appear to have much more engineering involved and I really like how the Nimrods tilt the speaker by easily turning a knob. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F-LCakjFXc

Are you going to use speaker stands or sub poles?

Even though the SM80 has some weight to it, the design of the box and the handle placement make it reasonably easy to put up on a pole compared to other speakers in the same weight class. I can put them up on a 6' high pole by myself.
Like any other speaker, it is more difficult taking them off the pole than putting them on.

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Paul Miller on September 29, 2019, 07:31:21 pm
A little late to the party, but congratulations Debbie! I also pulled the trigger on the SM80/TH118XL combo this year. Upgrading from QSC K12s over KW181s, well let's just say the difference was noticeable. I wasn't able to afford a second pair of TH118s at the time, or the DNA amp. So I settled on the DNA SC48 processor and utilize an existing QSC PL340 & 380. I'm planning on adding the second pair of TH118s and DNA20k4 next season. After quickly comparing a setup with one SM80 over a single TH118, to the same setup but with both TH118s, I understand why that combination is the sweet spot.

I will also chime in on how easy it is to move the TH118s. I just turned 50, don't work out, and have no trouble maneuvering them. Currently using K&M sub poles to get the SM80s up in the air. At 65 lbs the SM80s are at the upper end of what I can safely lift, but again the cabinet and handle ergonomics make it easier than you would think.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 29, 2019, 07:48:52 pm


Are you going to use speaker stands or sub poles?

Even though the SM80 has some weight to it, the design of the box and the handle placement make it reasonably easy to put up on a pole compared to other speakers in the same weight class. I can put them up on a 6' high pole by myself.
Like any other speaker, it is more difficult taking them off the pole than putting them on.

This also has been a topic of discussion between Chris and I because he is the one who does all the lifting of speakers. It is true that at the end of the night a speaker appears to weigh twice what it did at the start..... so anything for an easy life at that point.
I have wind up tripods, wind up sub poles, gas assist tripods and gas assist sub poles.
The gas assist sub poles are longer than the wind ups and create a more difficult lift. 
So if we were to use sub poles, we would have to use the wind ups.
The tripods - wind up or gas assist - are much lower to start and make things a bit easier for sure BUT of course take up some room and might not look as neat.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ivan Beaver on September 29, 2019, 07:58:37 pm

The SM80 has an 80X80 dispersion so once they are up in the air they will be putting as much sound on the ceiling as they do on the audience unless you tilt them down.

This is something that is VERY often misunderstood.

Yes the pattern is wider than other "normally rated patterns".

But consider this.  With a narrower pattern horn, the horn MUST be larger to be able to MAINTAIN that actual pattern.

Let's say a "normal 90x40" horn that is 10" is used in a PA on  a stick.   That horn will only control down to around 2500hz.  Below that it get wider and wider and wider.

But with a larger wider pattern horn, that energy is actually controlled to a much lower freq.

So depending on the freq, you could (and probably are) putting MORE energy up on the ceiling than with a large 80* horn.

Just something to consider.

SIZE MATTERS when it comes to horns
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 29, 2019, 08:07:43 pm
A little late to the party, but congratulations Debbie! I also pulled the trigger on the SM80/TH118XL combo this year. Upgrading from QSC K12s over KW181s, well let's just say the difference was noticeable. I wasn't able to afford a second pair of TH118s at the time, or the DNA amp. So I settled on the DNA SC48 processor and utilize an existing QSC PL340 & 380. I'm planning on adding the second pair of TH118s and DNA20k4 next season. After quickly comparing a setup with one SM80 over a single TH118, to the same setup but with both TH118s, I understand why that combination is the sweet spot.

I will also chime in on how easy it is to move the TH118s. I just turned 50, don't work out, and have no trouble maneuvering them. Currently using K&M sub poles to get the SM80s up in the air. At 65 lbs the SM80s are at the upper end of what I can safely lift, but again the cabinet and handle ergonomics make it easier than you would think.

Thanks Paul - you and many others have commented on just how easy the pieces are to move around which makes me (and hubby) very happy. It really is so important to not have to struggle moving speakers from place to place or 'throwing' them up on to stands.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Rob Spence on September 29, 2019, 11:50:16 pm
You have Danley too - right? Why jealous? LOL ... thanks Rob.

Yes I can go lighter gauge on the short cables thank goodness. My old SRX700 system - I had the traditional amp rack stage side and
it was like coiling up pythons at the end of the night and my arms would ache the next day.
When i went powered, it was a joy to coil up XLRs so being able to keep to shorter, lighter SpeakOns this time around is a relief and really
the only reason I didn't get the Danley amp.

I have a pair of TH118s and 2 pair of EV QRX212s. My outdoor gigs tend toward needing wide coverage so the QRX work well.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Rob Spence on September 30, 2019, 12:01:45 am
Yes I'll need cases.  I case EVERYTHING!!
The T602 is so small though so a rack case almost seems overkill. Not sure what I'll be doing there yet.

I have several of the new SKB cases. The 1SKB 2U case is sweet. I love the handles and they have nicer latches than the old ones. Check the depth of your new amps though.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on September 30, 2019, 01:05:37 am
This also has been a topic of discussion between Chris and I because he is the one who does all the lifting of speakers. It is true that at the end of the night a speaker appears to weigh twice what it did at the start..... so anything for an easy life at that point.
I have wind up tripods, wind up sub poles, gas assist tripods and gas assist sub poles.
The gas assist sub poles are longer than the wind ups and create a more difficult lift. 
So if we were to use sub poles, we would have to use the wind ups.
The tripods - wind up or gas assist - are much lower to start and make things a bit easier for sure BUT of course take up some room and might not look as neat.

The photo of the TH118 on the Danley website shows a pole cup where the pole slips in. Hopefully this is an outdated photo and they are now using 20mm threaded pole plates. If not, you will probably want to change that out. Not much fun when you are trying to lift the SM80 off of the pole and the pole comes out of the sub instead.
The TH118 is 40" tall. Add your tilter and a pole and it will be way too high to lift the SM80 on top without some type of step or getting on top of the sub.
Sub pole looks much cleaner and and makes for a smaller footprint but you have the capacity to go much higher with a tripod. If you use a sub pole you probably won't need the tilters unless the subs are up on a high stage.

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 30, 2019, 01:43:09 am
The photo of the TH118 on the Danley website shows a pole cup where the pole slips in. Hopefully this is an outdated photo and they are now using 20mm threaded pole plates. If not, you will probably want to change that out. Not much fun when you are trying to lift the SM80 off of the pole and the pole comes out of the sub instead.
The TH118 is 40" tall. Add your tilter and a pole and it will be way too high to lift the SM80 on top without some type of step or getting on top of the sub.
Sub pole looks much cleaner and and makes for a smaller footprint but you have the capacity to go much higher with a tripod. If you use a sub pole you probably won't need the tilters unless the subs are up on a high stage.
I believe you can chose which pole cup.  I have a pair of each.  When the sub on its side, you can stand on the sub to install the top.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Kemper Watson on September 30, 2019, 07:53:25 am
I have a pair of TH118s and 2 pair of EV QRX212s. My outdoor gigs tend toward needing wide coverage so the QRX work well.

The SM 80's get pretty wide.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Taylor Hall on September 30, 2019, 08:38:05 am
Yes I'll need cases.  I case EVERYTHING!!
The T602 is so small though so a rack case almost seems overkill. Not sure what I'll be doing there yet.
We swooped up a smattering of 3U racks (sometimes called effects racks) a while back off craigslist that we use for small breakout kits (2U amp + 1U crossover for easy 2-way system, 1U wireless mics + 1U comp/limiter + 1U storage for a karaoke setup, etc). You'd be able to mount the amp plus a breakout panel for power/signal/speakon and make it super tidy for fast set/strike.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Olewiler on September 30, 2019, 09:03:31 am
Sub pole looks much cleaner and and makes for a smaller footprint but you have the capacity to go much higher with a tripod.

That really depends on what sub poles and what tripods you have.

 I have 41" high subs and my sub poles are the K/M adjustable model with the locking ends. I know they are 40" tall fully collapsed.  I just measured them. When in use with my subs it puts the bottom of the speaker at 74" off the ground at their lowest setting. Of course even higher with tilters. I need a 6 ft ladder to get the top speakers on them. Often times they are too high for the ceiling and I have to pull out shorter sub poles. When used in my 41" tall subs they will go much higher than any of my standard tripods stands do. Rarely need my ST-132 stands now except when I'm not using subs.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Guilford on September 30, 2019, 09:05:56 am

Anyone interested in an SRX rig?


Ding ding ding! Letís talk. PM me?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 30, 2019, 09:10:16 am
The photo of the TH118 on the Danley website shows a pole cup where the pole slips in. Hopefully this is an outdated photo and they are now using 20mm threaded pole plates. If not, you will probably want to change that out. Not much fun when you are trying to lift the SM80 off of the pole and the pole comes out of the sub instead.
The TH118 is 40" tall. Add your tilter and a pole and it will be way too high to lift the SM80 on top without some type of step or getting on top of the sub.
Sub pole looks much cleaner and and makes for a smaller footprint but you have the capacity to go much higher with a tripod. If you use a sub pole you probably won't need the tilters unless the subs are up on a high stage.

As Dave mentioned I was able to choose 20mm or cup on the TH118.
The tilters Dave made are not very tall and this is actually one of the reasons I prefer them over the competition. They add very little to the height of the sub pole/tripod.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 30, 2019, 09:24:34 am
Ding ding ding! Letís talk. PM me?

Just did.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 30, 2019, 09:36:04 am
We swooped up a smattering of 3U racks (sometimes called effects racks) a while back off craigslist that we use for small breakout kits (2U amp + 1U crossover for easy 2-way system, 1U wireless mics + 1U comp/limiter + 1U storage for a karaoke setup, etc). You'd be able to mount the amp plus a breakout panel for power/signal/speakon and make it super tidy for fast set/strike.

I built a nice patch bay for my last amp rack but as these amps will be either side of the stage and the only piece of equipment in the case, that wont be necessary this time. I find the 1 u rack cases can make it difficult to connect cables and that 2u or even 3u offer more space for fat fingers!!
I was even thinking about  getting a 3 or even 4 u rack each side and adding a drawer for cables. A 4u rack will stand on its end and take up less space but can I stand an amp on its end?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Taylor Hall on September 30, 2019, 09:41:39 am
I built a nice patch bay for my last amp rack but as these amps will be either side of the stage and the only piece of equipment in the case, that wont be necessary this time. I find the 1 u rack cases can make it difficult to connect cables and that 2u or even 3u offer more space for fat fingers!!
I was even thinking about  getting a 3 or even 4 u rack each side and adding a drawer for cables. A 4u rack will stand on its end and take up less space but can I stand an amp on its end?
I've never had any issues with them on their end. We have a few crown XTI amps that live that way 95% of hte year and never give us trouble when we pull them out.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: John L Nobile on September 30, 2019, 10:34:08 am
Congrats Debbie. You're going to love mixing on this system. Don't be surprised if you use less eq to get clearer sound. Can't wait to hear your "review" after your first live mix.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Geert Friedhof on September 30, 2019, 10:50:22 am
A 4u rack will stand on its end and take up less space but can I stand an amp on its end?

Don't stand it on its end. You need the airflow for cooling, and it is much easier to spill a drink in it.

Put it on its side instead.

And i would get a 3u with a patchpanel and a ventilationpanel with the amp in between.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 30, 2019, 10:52:37 am
I've never had any issues with them on their end. We have a few crown XTI amps that live that way 95% of hte year and never give us trouble when we pull them out.

Good to know - thanks Taylor. If I can use this method then I'd prefer a 3 or 4u rack case.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 30, 2019, 10:53:52 am
Don't stand it on its end. You need the airflow for cooling, and it is much easier to spill a drink in it.

Put it on its side instead.
Isn't that the same thing?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Geert Friedhof on September 30, 2019, 10:58:41 am
Isn't that the same thing?

Uhmm nope. Not in my opinion anyways.

End is backside, where the rear connections etc are. Side is, well, side, you know, where the handles are.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Taylor Hall on September 30, 2019, 11:00:23 am
Good to know - thanks Taylor. If I can use this method then I'd prefer a 3 or 4u rack case.
Also because the haze is now clearing from my morning mind, this was referring to storing the amps, not actual operation. You'll want the cases open on both ends and laid horizontal when in use.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 30, 2019, 11:02:58 am
Uhmm nope. Not in my opinion anyways.

End is backside, whwre the rear connections etc are. Side is, well, side, you know, where the handles are.

I think Taylor and I see the 'end' as the 'side'. I would call the back - the back.  Either way I think we agree.
My intention was to stand the rack on its side NOT its back and that is why a 1 or 2u wouldn't be stable enough.
I could also  'lean' a 1 or 2u by placing a piece of foam under the front end underneath and that way it would be horizontal 'ish'.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 30, 2019, 11:03:53 am
Also because the haze is now clearing from my morning mind, this was referring to storing the amps, not actual operation. You'll want the cases open on both ends and laid horizontal when in use.

Aaaah well that's different. I'd need to use my propped up method in that 'case'.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 30, 2019, 11:10:21 am
What about this?.... the reason I wanted to stand the racks on their sides up against the wall is to protect them from getting knocked in tight spaces.
If I have to keep them horizontal then what about placing them on the subs? I have some really dense rubber foam and I could make 2 pads to isolate the amps from vibration. Would that work?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Taylor Hall on September 30, 2019, 11:12:46 am
I think Taylor and I see the 'end' as the 'side'. I would call the back - the back.  Either way I think we agree.
My intention was to stand the rack on its side NOT its back and that is why a 1 or 2u wouldn't be stable enough.
I could also  'lean' a 1 or 2u by placing a piece of foam under the front end underneath and that way it would be horizontal 'ish'.
So long as there's adequate ventilation you might be ok, though most amp heat sinks are designed to work best with the amp laying horizontal. I've not seen the insides of a Powersoft to see how they're laid out, but given their 1U design I'd assume they primarily use a push/pull fan design similar to rackmount servers rather than relying on natural convection like taller 2U amps with larger heat sinks.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Geert Friedhof on September 30, 2019, 11:19:26 am
On top of the sub: I wouldn't do that. Put one up/under/near your stagebox, and the other one behind the sub.
When outside try to put them under the stage.

Don't overthink it.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on September 30, 2019, 11:19:48 am
I expect the amps will be just fine sat on their side (ie, front and back still exposed, but they're portrait rather than landscape). I've heard of people doing some pretty nasty torture testing on these amps (including running them up to full power for hours in a completely enclosed rack), and they've always come out just fine.

I'd use a 2U case, with a 1U drawer for the SpeakOns. Nice and neat.

Chris
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 30, 2019, 11:52:24 am
On top of the sub: I wouldn't do that. Put one up/under/near your stagebox, and the other one behind the sub.
When outside try to put them under the stage.

Don't overthink it.

I overthink everything but it has served me well over the years. I am a planner and I intend to design a well oiled machine when it comes to deployment of this system. As I am in the planning stage of how I want to keep my set up nice and neat then all these things matter to me before I start purchasing racks, cables and anything else I may need.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Frank Koenig on September 30, 2019, 12:23:50 pm
I expect the amps will be just fine sat on their side (ie, front and back still exposed, but they're portrait rather than landscape).

Agree. These amps are all forced-air cooled and will run fine in any position so long as the airflow is not obstructed. I've run my Powersofts with the rack sitting on its side many times. Now if a fan dies... you're screwed. --Frank
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 30, 2019, 12:48:36 pm
Agree. These amps are all forced-air cooled and will run fine in any position so long as the airflow is not obstructed. I've run my Powersofts with the rack sitting on its side many times. Now if a fan dies... you're screwed. --Frank

Good point Frank - thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 30, 2019, 01:01:06 pm
I like the idea of positioning an amp per side - not only would it shorten the SpeakOn cable lengths but it would mean I could use my D Snake outs for one side just like I do with my powered set up - so I'd rely on XLR's for the most part keeping SpeakOns to a minimum. It would be like using a powered system but with the amps just outside the cabs. 
I must admit I have really enjoyed using powered speakers for this reason. Running power to each stack is second nature so that is never a chore. SpeakOns are so heavy and I find them much more difficult to coil after a show.
Only thing is I really like the idea of the DNA amps but would need 2 if I were to adopt this method - this is getting expensive -LOL

Aww man, I should have seen if you wanted to to come to Ohio and a call for Saturday's show.  We had 2 trunks of NL-4 4 conductor cables (the heavy ones) and another trunk for 3 phase feeder from generator.

Not only do the NL-4's have to go in and out but the feeder, even though we only used 80 feet to go to generator we had to unload all 300+ feet  of 5 conductor #6 that had to be figured 8'd. then undone at show end and loaded out!

We did pretty good, 1.6 hours on the out with just me and a very capable young hand.  It was the best Oktoberfest gig we had worked for the client but the final act, a funk, jazz, pop fusion was the most incredible bunch of guys I have ever worked with. 

Here was the schedule, it was a long day:

Truck Call 7:30AM
On - Site 9AM
Setup (racks and stacks 4 subs 2 tops per side) stage side FOH
Noon - Solo act hits
3-9PM random Oktoberfest bands, dance troupes (yeah tacks) wood chopping and drinking contests support.   
9PM - Midnight (regional 9 piece)
2AM - Truck rolls off property
3:15AM back at shop

Sunday unloaded and de-prepped to get ahead of week.

Not sure if whining or bragging, With friend's you can do both!  Of course it was underbid so I had 2 guys for the in but only one for the out.


Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 30, 2019, 01:40:20 pm
Aww man, I should have seen if you wanted to to come to Ohio and a call for Saturday's show.  We had 2 trunks of NL-4 4 conductor cables (the heavy ones) and another trunk for 3 phase feeder from generator.

Not only do the NL-4's have to go in and out but the feeder, even though we only used 80 feet to go to generator we had to unload all 300+ feet  of 5 conductor #6 that had to be figured 8'd. then undone at show end and loaded out!

We did pretty good, 1.6 hours on the out with just me and a very capable young hand.  It was the best Oktoberfest gig we had worked for the client but the final act, a funk, jazz, pop fusion was the most incredible bunch of guys I have ever worked with. 

Here was the schedule, it was a long day:

Truck Call 7:30AM
On - Site 9AM
Setup (racks and stacks 4 subs 2 tops per side) stage side FOH
Noon - Solo act hits
3-9PM random Oktoberfest bands, dance troupes (yeah tacks) wood chopping and drinking contests support.   
9PM - Midnight (regional 9 piece)
2AM - Truck rolls off property
3:15AM back at shop

Sunday unloaded and de-prepped to get ahead of week.

Not sure if whining or bragging, With friend's you can do both!  Of course it was underbid so I had 2 guys for the in but only one for the out.

And I wasn't working this weekend so I was available.....
That was a LONG day - nice job!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on September 30, 2019, 02:27:29 pm
I built a nice patch bay for my last amp rack but as these amps will be either side of the stage and the only piece of equipment in the case, that wont be necessary this time. I find the 1 u rack cases can make it difficult to connect cables and that 2u or even 3u offer more space for fat fingers!!
I was even thinking about  getting a 3 or even 4 u rack each side and adding a drawer for cables. A 4u rack will stand on its end and take up less space but can I stand an amp on its end?

I have each PLX3602 in a 2 space rack, on it's side, next to each sub stack. I have a short bungee cord that hooks onto the rack handle and onto the sub handle that keeps it from falling over. Not sure if there is a place to hook a bungee on the TH118. Maybe try and utilize the pole cup on the side somehow? Maybe a short 20mm eye-bolt that you can hook a bungee to?
I would put each single space amp into a two space case, install a perforated panel on the empty space in order to have some air flow. You can keep your speaker cables attached to the amp and just fold them into the empty 1 space cavity for storage and transport. Plenty of room since your cables will be short in length.

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Steve Garris on September 30, 2019, 02:29:09 pm
Debbie, I know you are probably in a hurry to sell, but I would love a report on how an 815p sounds over a TH118.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 30, 2019, 02:34:24 pm
Debbie, I know you are probably in a hurry to sell, but I would love a report on how an 815p sounds over a TH118.

You mean the 818 or maybe even better the 828 -right? Well I would like to sell soon because of the space limitations - one of the reasons we are switching to less boxes/same or more output. Having said that I agree it would be a great comparison.....mmm
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 30, 2019, 02:36:31 pm
I have each PLX3602 in a 2 space rack, on it's side, next to each sub stack. I have a short bungee cord that hooks onto the rack handle and onto the sub handle that keeps it from falling over. Not sure if there is a place to hook a bungee on the TH118. Maybe try and utilize the pole cup on the side somehow? Maybe a short 20mm eye-bolt that you can hook a bungee to?
I would put each single space amp into a two space case, install a perforated panel on the empty space in order to have some air flow. You can keep your speaker cables attached to the amp and just fold them into the empty 1 space cavity for storage and transport. Plenty of room since your cables will be short in length.

Good idea Robert - bungee to the cab somehow. 2u would be such a small footprint for sure.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dennis Wiggins on September 30, 2019, 03:09:44 pm
...on it's side, next to each sub stack. I

I ran my amps this way for well over a decade. Never a problem.

-Dennis
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 30, 2019, 03:52:07 pm
I'll have my Danleys setup and blasting this weekend in Oakland's Oaktoberfest (DJ stage) if anyone in the Bay Area wants to hear the SM80s over TH118s.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Nathan Riddle on September 30, 2019, 04:27:13 pm
I am super late to the party.

First, congrats! You'll love it and retire happy instead of dreaming of better sound! :)

But some thoughts as I read through.

Someone else mentioned plate amps. You can actually run two subs off of one plate amp.

Chris mentioned 8ohms vs 4 ohms. I'd get 4ohms no matter what. When run hot they're in power compression and average around 8ohms on my iTech 8k. so with 2 on the same channel its around 4ohms perfect for most amps. and you could get away with 3 on one channel on a super amp...

The pole cups are easy to move around, you can order in any config. But I'd get alteast one M20 screw type and one 35mm pole type and put the pole mount on the sub where you need it (side or stood up).

You will have to re-wire the nl4 connectors on the sub for pass-thru of the 2nd pair of pins for the sm80 if you want to link the system.

Join the FB Danley group for lots of Danley fanboy photos and tech discussion.

You could dial in your own preset with 2ch FFT and a day, or just email DSL/post in DSLUG and get presets in a few minutes.

There's prolly more, but that's what I remember from the thread.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 30, 2019, 04:53:41 pm
I am super late to the party.

First, congrats! You'll love it and retire happy instead of dreaming of better sound! :)

But some thoughts as I read through.

Someone else mentioned plate amps. You can actually run two subs off of one plate amp.

Chris mentioned 8ohms vs 4 ohms. I'd get 4ohms no matter what. When run hot they're in power compression and average around 8ohms on my iTech 8k. so with 2 on the same channel its around 4ohms perfect for most amps. and you could get away with 3 on one channel on a super amp...

The pole cups are easy to move around, you can order in any config. But I'd get alteast one M20 screw type and one 35mm pole type and put the pole mount on the sub where you need it (side or stood up).

You will have to re-wire the nl4 connectors on the sub for pass-thru of the 2nd pair of pins for the sm80 if you want to link the system.

Join the FB Danley group for lots of Danley fanboy photos and tech discussion.

You could dial in your own preset with 2ch FFT and a day, or just email DSL/post in DSLUG and get presets in a few minutes.

There's prolly more, but that's what I remember from the thread.

Thanks Nathan. I ordered M20 pole mount. My gas assist poles have adaptors for either but I've been M20 for years. I have already chosen my components - amps and I am happy with my choices.
I did ask about the plate amps but chose against them. This will work for me and the more I think about it, the happier I am with my choice.

You kinda hit the nail on the head about retiring happy. I have whined about Danley for years but never thought it would happen,  so for me - without getting too soppy - this is a dream come true I suppose.
I spent quite a few years with some nasty health issues to deal with and came away from live music for that reason so I got back into it again a bit later in life and had to catch up- LOL!.
Don't get me wrong - I have thoroughly enjoyed using my SRX systems - 700 and then 800 powered and I have been very happy with the results I was able to get - very happy indeed.  The SRX series is a killer rig and unbeatable in it's class IMHO. Some might say I should have stopped there ... but this move is for a number of reasons:
1) It's Danley.
2) I get the same if not more SPL using less boxes - so less storage and less units to move around and transport ( and load and unload) .
3) It's Danley.
4) I can stop whining which will keep hubby happy.
5) It's Danley
6) My dream came true
7) It's Danley
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Mark Scrivener on September 30, 2019, 05:45:27 pm
......
1) It's Danley.
......
3) It's Danley.
......
5) It's Danley
......
7) It's Danley

So many old commercials come to mind....

"But wait, I could have had a Danley!"
"The time to think about a Danley is before you've bought something else."
"Is it live, or is it Danley?"
"You can pay me now, or you can pay me later."
"Got Danley?"
"Be all you can be"
"Can you hear me now?"
"It's not just a PA, it's a Danley!"
"Don't leave home without it!"
"Just do it!"
"Reach out and touch someone"
"There are some things money can't by. For everything else, there's Danley."
"When you care enough to play through the very best..."
"When it absolutely, positively has to rock the house...."

OK, I'll stop....  :)

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Jeff Lelko on September 30, 2019, 06:36:34 pm
Here was the schedule, it was a long day:

Truck Call 7:30AM
On - Site 9AM
Setup (racks and stacks 4 subs 2 tops per side) stage side FOH
Noon - Solo act hits
3-9PM random Oktoberfest bands, dance troupes (yeah tacks) wood chopping and drinking contests support.   
9PM - Midnight (regional 9 piece)
2AM - Truck rolls off property
3:15AM back at shop

Very nice!  You should see my itinerary for the week of the Fourth of July!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 30, 2019, 10:30:20 pm
And I wasn't working this weekend so I was available.....
That was a LONG day - nice job!

It was a long day.....thanks.  Last band was excellent.

https://youtu.be/nIgwvi8P2NU
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 30, 2019, 11:26:33 pm
I expect the amps will be just fine sat on their side (ie, front and back still exposed, but they're portrait rather than landscape). I've heard of people doing some pretty nasty torture testing on these amps (including running them up to full power for hours in a completely enclosed rack), and they've always come out just fine.

I'd use a 2U case, with a 1U drawer for the SpeakOns. Nice and neat.

Chris

Definitely getting 2 u I think but maybe just slot the cables underneath.

Chris I just saw your other thread about the poor service you have received on the repair of the T 604 amp that bricked.
I had seen it before but didn't put 2 and 2 together till now. Should I be concerned now I am making the purchase of the 2 T602's???
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on October 01, 2019, 01:44:53 am
Chris I just saw your other thread about the poor service you have received on the repair of the T 604 amp that bricked.
I had seen it before but didn't put 2 and 2 together till now. Should I be concerned now I am making the purchase of the 2 T602's???

I was under the impression that PowerSoft was a top of the line product. If I recall, there was a recent thread about Fulcrum no longer offering self powered speakers as they were having too many service issues with the PowerSoft plate amps they were using. Who is the OEM for the Danley DNA amps?

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Mike Pyle on October 01, 2019, 02:37:42 am
Who is the OEM for the Danley DNA amps?

The DNA amps are built by Linea Research.

My one experience with Powersoft service in the USA was very satisfactory. I sent them a K10 that was running hot and they had it fixed and back to me in about a week. The repair cost was reasonable.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on October 01, 2019, 02:46:31 am
Definitely getting 2 u I think but maybe just slot the cables underneath.

Chris I just saw your other thread about the poor service you have received on the repair of the T 604 amp that bricked.
I had seen it before but didn't put 2 and 2 together till now. Should I be concerned now I am making the purchase of the 2 T602's???

Debbie,

I did wonder if it'd be spotted. I think you'll be fine - I've had word that the USA servicing has been overhauled in the past couple of years, meaning they're able to cope with higher demands. Here in Europe, they're actively working on the same process of expanding the service capabilities. Right now, my T604 has "fallen through the cracks", as it were - it's a new product going into an old service centre, while the service centre is being expanded.

From what I can tell, my T604 has also been a totally isolated case. The rest of my T-series amps have been performing flawlessly, and I fully expect yours to do the same.

Chris
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Randy Pence on October 01, 2019, 07:28:41 am
It was a long day.....thanks.  Last band was excellent.

https://youtu.be/nIgwvi8P2NU

They are quite good, but that cowbell player is the star!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 01, 2019, 09:30:08 am
The DNA amps are built by Linea Research.

My one experience with Powersoft service in the USA was very satisfactory. I sent them a K10 that was running hot and they had it fixed and back to me in about a week. The repair cost was reasonable.

Thanks Mike.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 01, 2019, 09:32:01 am
Debbie,

I did wonder if it'd be spotted. I think you'll be fine - I've had word that the USA servicing has been overhauled in the past couple of years, meaning they're able to cope with higher demands. Here in Europe, they're actively working on the same process of expanding the service capabilities. Right now, my T604 has "fallen through the cracks", as it were - it's a new product going into an old service centre, while the service centre is being expanded.

From what I can tell, my T604 has also been a totally isolated case. The rest of my T-series amps have been performing flawlessly, and I fully expect yours to do the same.

Chris

Good - I would assume so from all the positive comments I have read including yours but I figured I'd bring it up. I am really set on them so I didn't want any doubts.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Nimrod Webber on October 01, 2019, 09:58:45 am
The Nimrods appear to have much more engineering involved and I really like how the Nimrods tilt the speaker by easily turning a knob. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F-LCakjFXc

Wow, that YT is really old and outdated (actually need to remove it...) That tilting knob was just an early concept test on the initial prototype.
The design has come a long way since then and the current model has a simple lever for altering the tilt angle.
This tilt lever is easily operated even when the pole/stand is extended and the tilter is under the full load of the cab! Just reach it with your fingers and tilt..
Another important feature on the current model is the Cab-Lock. Very beneficial when tilting non symmetrical cabs.

Easy tilting..  :)   
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Corey Scogin on October 01, 2019, 12:10:38 pm
Sorry for a completely off-topic post but...

I think it's amazing that two forum members designed, build, and sell a product that
1. is very useful for everyone in SOS world
2. is far better than any major manufacturer's similar products

The only products I know of from major manufacturers don't even come close to comparing to Nimrod Webber's BT or Dave Garoutte's Angler in quality or function.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 01, 2019, 12:48:57 pm
Sorry for a completely off-topic post but...

I think it's amazing that two forum members designed, build, and sell a product that
1. is very useful for everyone in SOS world
2. is far better than any major manufacturer's similar products

The only products I know of from major manufacturers don't even come close to comparing to Nimrod Webber's BT or Dave Garoutte's Angler in quality or function.

I agree Corey. I really like my anglers that Dave Garoutte built and there are many testimonials here praising the Nimrod's BT.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Steve Garris on October 01, 2019, 01:26:07 pm
You mean the 818 or maybe even better the 828 -right? Well I would like to sell soon because of the space limitations - one of the reasons we are switching to less boxes/same or more output. Having said that I agree it would be a great comparison.....mmm

No, I meant the 815p top two-way speaker, which I thought you had. I'm curious as to how that would sound sitting on top of a TH118. Do you have the 812p's?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Taylor Hall on October 01, 2019, 01:57:24 pm
No, I meant the 815p top two-way speaker, which I thought you had. I'm curious as to how that would sound sitting on top of a TH118. Do you have the 812p's?
They would probably sound fine, though the smaller SRX cabinets would probably only be able to keep up with a single TH118. Several users have seen that about four of the SRX818 (or KW181) subs will match a single TH118, so the 812/815 tops -would work- but probably will be leaving a fair bit of sub output from the TH118 on the table by being hamstrung by the weaker tops. The SRX835 would have an easier time of it, at the expense of your back.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Frank Koenig on October 01, 2019, 02:08:45 pm
Sorry for a completely off-topic post but...

I think it's amazing that two forum members designed, build, and sell a product that
1. is very useful for everyone in SOS world
2. is far better than any major manufacturer's similar products

The only products I know of from major manufacturers don't even come close to comparing to Nimrod Webber's BT or Dave Garoutte's Angler in quality or function.

Agree. I think it's great. The only reason I haven't bought any (yet) is that I made my own fixed-angle tilters that are OK for now.

The related thing I would really like, that no manufacturer of any scale has done, so far as I know, is make a speaker stand that meets the following requirements:

Works with a 10 ft ceiling -- higher capability for outdoors a bonus.
200 lb capacity.
Erected/struck by one person.
Snatches speaker from ground (dolly) level. No manual lifting required.
Well behaved winch that doesn't get tangled up. Maybe use webbing in place of wire rope.
No or few loose parts to lose.
Industry standard or better stability without guys or ballast.
Attractive and lightweight aluminum construction.

I've been using the Trabes 4.5 towers at "half-mast" (just one piece of truss) and they come close. If I could get something of the same basic design, just a little smaller and easier to put up, I, and I'm guessing others,  would be very happy. I think it's totally doable. (I even played around with a design myself -- Dave knows.) The biggest obstacle probably is product liability insurance, as always in the US.

--Frank
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Geert Friedhof on October 01, 2019, 02:23:34 pm
For easy, small and diverse tilting adaptors have a look at the Martin Audio CDD Live tilters. Quite pricy though.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 01, 2019, 03:01:30 pm
No, I meant the 815p top two-way speaker, which I thought you had. I'm curious as to how that would sound sitting on top of a TH118. Do you have the 812p's?

Oh sorry - my bad . Yes I do have the SRX815p AND 812p. Let's see how long it takes to sell the SRX system......
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 01, 2019, 03:03:52 pm
They would probably sound fine, though the smaller SRX cabinets would probably only be able to keep up with a single TH118. Several users have seen that about four of the SRX818 (or KW181) subs will match a single TH118, so the 812/815 tops -would work- but probably will be leaving a fair bit of sub output from the TH118 on the table by being hamstrung by the weaker tops. The SRX835 would have an easier time of it, at the expense of your back.

I realize this is only on paper but the SRX815 is the same 137db as the SRX835.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: brian maddox on October 01, 2019, 09:46:05 pm
For easy, small and diverse tilting adaptors have a look at the Martin Audio CDD Live tilters. Quite pricy though.

Do you have a iink?  I think i've used what you're referring to and i wasn't super impressed.  But i may be thinking of a different piece of hardware.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Geert Friedhof on October 02, 2019, 07:53:30 am
Do you have a iink?  I think i've used what you're referring to and i wasn't super impressed.  But i may be thinking of a different piece of hardware.

For the 12": https://static.martin-audio.com/downloads/datasheets/accessories/ASF20046%20datasheet.pdf
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on October 02, 2019, 01:02:13 pm
For the 12": https://static.martin-audio.com/downloads/datasheets/accessories/ASF20046%20datasheet.pdf
A friend of mine who is a Martin Audio user looked at those and ended up buying a set of my betas. 
I think he said the Martin ones listed for $700 or so.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Rob Spence on October 02, 2019, 01:27:12 pm
I have a pair of Anglers and BTs. I use them for different uses.
The anglers for my biggish EV ZXa5s and the BT for the DXR10s.

Love them both.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 02, 2019, 01:40:36 pm
So I've decided to go all 12 AWG 2 pole Speakons at 15ft each. Although this length is a bit longer than I need considering each amp will be 'stack side', it allows some flexibility if I had an amp go down.
Without this consideration, I would have gone shorter as was mentioned earlier - perhaps 3-5ft to subs and 8-10ft to the tops but I have to consider failure and that is one of the reasons I got the 2 amps in the first place.
If that occurred, I could use my Neutrik Speakon couplers to connect 2 of the 15's together (twice) for a 30ft run which would be enough to get me out of trouble, and simply jump from the 'working side' to the other stack. I am trying to keep things simple and in the event of an emergency, not have to re-configure and spend a bunch of time re-wiring. Under pressure I tend to get anxious unless I know exactly what I am doing.
Also 12AWG 2 pole cable is SO much easier to coil than heavy duty 4 pole.
I am going to use 2u rack cases and keep the cables in the rack with the amps.
Soooo looking forward to delivery.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 02, 2019, 01:41:28 pm
I have a pair of Anglers and BTs. I use them for different uses.
The anglers for my biggish EV ZXa5s and the BT for the DXR10s.

Love them both.

I don't have the BT's but I love my 'Dave' Anglers.....
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Geert Friedhof on October 02, 2019, 01:55:45 pm
So you are going to use patchpanels, since the T602 has only 4 pole connectors?

BTW: When will you have the system delivered and complete?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Mike Pyle on October 02, 2019, 02:06:23 pm
So you are going to use patchpanels, since the T602 has only 4 pole connectors?

Not necessary. The T602 has the typical pair of speakon connectors.

If Debbie had to run the system on one amp she can parallel using the through connectors on the cabs.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 02, 2019, 02:07:56 pm
So you are going to use patchpanels, since the T602 has only 4 pole connectors?

BTW: When will you have the system delivered and complete?

Wasn't planning to at least at first. Not sure why 12/2 cable wouldn't work - the Speakon connectors are 4 pole. Is there something I am missing?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 02, 2019, 02:12:49 pm
Not necessary. The T602 has the typical pair of speakon connectors.

If Debbie had to run the system on one amp she can parallel using the through connectors on the cabs.

Thanks Mike.....

BTW to all:

Mike Pyle has been guiding and helping me in my decisions. He is the BOMB and could not have been more generous with his time and support throughout this time. I purchased the system through him but got a lot more than I expected. BIG shout out to Mike Pyle!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 02, 2019, 03:02:40 pm
Since you are going with short speaker cables, you might want to get a couple of the "inline NL4 adapters", so that you can hook two cables together if you need to.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Steve Crump on October 02, 2019, 03:07:05 pm
Wasn't planning to at least at first. Not sure why 12/2 cable wouldn't work - the Speakon connectors are 4 pole. Is there something I am missing?


I think Geert may be thinking of the T304 and T604 that only have two speak on connections with two channels at each connection, so when using four channels to separate cabinets a "break out" may be needed. Really doesn't apply to the two channel models.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 02, 2019, 03:11:42 pm
Since you are going with short speaker cables, you might want to get a couple of the "inline NL4 adapters", so that you can hook two cables together if you need to.
Yes Ivan - thanks. I did mention above that I will keep a couple of those close by just for that purpose - I referred to them as couplers. This is what you mean - right?

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 02, 2019, 03:48:38 pm

When will you have the system delivered and complete?

Mike said it takes about 3 weeks for the speakers. I haven't been this excited for a long time.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: John L Nobile on October 02, 2019, 03:55:49 pm
Mike said it takes about 3 weeks for the speakers. I haven't been this excited for along time.

Your excitement is contagious. Now I can't wait either. :)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on October 02, 2019, 03:58:43 pm
Mike Pyle has been guiding and helping me in my decisions. He is the BOMB and could not have been more generous with his time and support throughout this time. I purchased the system through him but got a lot more than I expected. BIG shout out to Mike Pyle!
+1
He da man!

I think you can safely remove the 'Not' from the title of this thread now.

I already have mine and I'm still excited every time I fire them up.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Greg Harwood on October 02, 2019, 04:04:25 pm
Mike Pyle has been guiding and helping me in my decisions. He is the BOMB and could not have been more generous with his time and support throughout this time. I purchased the system through him but got a lot more than I expected. BIG shout out to Mike Pyle!
[/quote]

Agreed.  Mike has always taken good care of me over the years as well.  Great guy.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 02, 2019, 04:06:23 pm
+1
He da man!

I think you can safely remove the 'Not' from the title of this thread now.

I already have mine and I'm still excited every time I fire them up.

Oh OK - you're right I suppose. Not sure how to do that mind you - LOL...
Title: Re: Not my Not this time - LOL
Post by: Mac Kerr on October 02, 2019, 04:47:41 pm
Oh OK - you're right I suppose. Not sure how to do that mind you - LOL...

There are 2 ways that work for me. The easy one is any future posts you make you give them the new title you want. What I'm not sure regular users have access to is modifying your post after a long time has passed. If it works there will be a modify button nest to quote when you open one of your own posts, you can change the title there. As an admin it is aways there for me on everyone's posts, so I don't know if it's there for others.

Mac
Title: Re: (Maybe it is) my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 02, 2019, 04:58:37 pm
There are 2 ways that work for me. The easy one is any future posts you make you give them the new title you want. What I'm not sure regular users have access to is modifying your post after a long time has passed. If it works there will be a modify button nest to quote when you open one of your own posts, you can change the title there. As an admin it is aways there for me on everyone's posts, so I don't know if it's there for others.

Mac

AAahh thanks Mac... let's see...
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: dave briar on October 02, 2019, 05:07:18 pm

Agreed.  Mike has always taken good care of me over the years as well.  Great guy.


Ditto!!  Three mixers and counting.....
Title: Re: (Maybe it is) my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on October 02, 2019, 07:00:39 pm
AAahh thanks Mac... let's see...

Oh, come on! I was kidding! >:( :o
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: brian maddox on October 02, 2019, 09:10:43 pm
A friend of mine who is a Martin Audio user looked at those and ended up buying a set of my betas. 
I think he said the Martin ones listed for $700 or so.

Yeah, these are the ones i've used.  They work, but i don't love them.  They do serve double duty in that they can be used to create down angle when hanging the cabinets from a truss, but not enough of a down angle IMHO.  Overall i give them a score of Meh.

I've not used either of the units made by members here, but they DO look really cool. 
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Matt Greiner on October 02, 2019, 11:43:47 pm
Thanks Mike.....

BTW to all:

Mike Pyle has been guiding and helping me in my decisions. He is the BOMB and could not have been more generous with his time and support throughout this time. I purchased the system through him but got a lot more than I expected. BIG shout out to Mike Pyle!

I can also attest for Mike Pyle.  From a small order of DI's to my most recent RCF subs, I feel like I get the same level of service from him each time.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 03, 2019, 12:02:15 am
I can also attest for Mike Pyle.  From a small order of DI's to my most recent RCF subs, I feel like I get the same level of service from him each time.

Agree from pallet loads to a set of casters Mike service is always spot on.

Most recently we got a set of Works lifts from him.  He knew I had been looking and had these on demo or something and made us a screaming deal.  Did a super job getting them packed up for shipment too using unistrut on the pallet.  Everything he does is first class.

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Slater on October 03, 2019, 07:27:49 am
I can also attest for Mike Pyle.  From a small order of DI's to my most recent RCF subs, I feel like I get the same level of service from him each time.

+1  I got my Danley's, my dLive, and various other odds and ends from Mike.  Top notch service all the time!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Steve Ferreira on October 03, 2019, 10:29:02 am
Debbie,

I would consider a box like in the link below. Use all NL4 cables. 1 run to each speaker stack and then short cables from the box to each speaker.

http://www.gearboxpro.com/product/10042
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 03, 2019, 10:59:15 am
Debbie,

I would consider a box like in the link below. Use all NL4 cables. 1 run to each speaker stack and then short cables from the box to each speaker.

http://www.gearboxpro.com/product/10042

I had considered doing this Steve, but chose to go with the 2 pole instead.
My reasons being:
1) Because I don't have to feed both sides from one amp (placing an amp per side) there is no need for long lengths across the stage.
2) Keeping to 2 pole means slightly thinner cables that can easily fit into a 2u rack underneath the amp.
3) If an amp goes down, I can quickly feed the down side from the speaker parallel outs on the working side and switch to mono feed from the mixer without touching the amps. This to me was the most efficient and fastest way to get back up and running again.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 03, 2019, 03:10:12 pm
I'm starting to get responses to my SRX ad but some are a distance from me. If I do end up shipping, what is the best way to do this as I've only ever dealt locally in the past.??
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Brian Bolly on October 03, 2019, 03:24:24 pm
I'm starting to get responses to my SRX ad but some are a distance from me. If I do end up shipping, what is the best way to do this as I've only ever dealt locally in the past.??

On a pallet if you're doing more than a pair of boxes, or anything above standard UPS/FedEx size.  Click through Uship.com or freightquote.com to get quotes.  If you're selling 4-6 speakers at a time, boxing them up and doing common carrier (unless you already have all the packing) is a PITA.  Putting on a pallet and dropping off at your local freight depot is significantly easier.  Add 40-50# for a pallet and packing material to your product weight estimate, and your standard pallet size will be 40x48xHEIGHT

TIP: When you run numbers for quotes, figure out which carriers are giving you quotes and where their local terminal is.  Re-run the quote using their zip code as a "from" zip. Dropping off at a terminal saves a bunch of money over residential pickup with lift gate service.  Also, unless your buyers have a commercial address with a dock, see if they can pick up from their receiving terminal as well (use their local terminal zip as the destination for the quotes).  It takes an extra 10 minutes of internet sleuthing to get decent numbers, but could save you 50-75% in shipping costs if you can eliminate residential/lift gate madness.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Taylor Hall on October 03, 2019, 03:29:27 pm
I'm starting to get responses to my SRX ad but some are a distance from me. If I do end up shipping, what is the best way to do this as I've only ever dealt locally in the past.??
Unless you still have the original packaging you may need to go freight, especially on the subs. By the time you buy boxes, get the packing materials to make sure they'll survive the journey and schlep them to the nearest ups store, you'd end up at about the same cost since you'd probably trigger the first oversize dimensional category for either carrier.

I think I saw you had covers for everything so wrap the stew out of them with some stretch wrap and get a cheap poly strapping kit (just the friction tension kind with the little metal hooks, not the clamping kind that use the ratchet tool) and secure it all to the pallet with a few straps. For added peace of mind you can get a pack of moving blankets from harbor freight and toss them over top as well for added cushion and protection. Finding the pallets themselves may be a bit tricky, but if you troll around a few industrial complexes you'll probably find a place or two willing to part with a couple. Be sure to see if they have any non-standard sizes, they'll probably happily part with them rather than cutting them down to fit in a dumpster.
As far as arranging the freight, leave that up to the buyer and be sure they specify liftgate service unless you have a dock where all this is stored.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: David Allred on October 03, 2019, 03:37:25 pm
I had considered doing this Steve, but chose to go with the 2 pole instead.
My reasons being:
1) Because I don't have to feed both sides from one amp (placing an amp per side) there is no need for long lengths across the stage.
2) Keeping to 2 pole means slightly thinner cables that can easily fit into a 2u rack underneath the amp.
3) If an amp goes down, I can quickly feed the down side from the speaker parallel outs on the working side and switch to mono feed from the mixer without touching the amps. This to me was the most efficient and fastest way to get back up and running again.

I think 2-cond for 15ft-er's is a good choice.  Do the Danley subs offer 4-cond in with pass thru to the tops?  I would do that over buying or making a splitter.  That (4-cond in) does eliminate misconnects (at least lessens the chance) for a new helper.

Shipping to my address would be a little cheaper, then you could pick up when you are near.  I'd let you know when they are ready for pick-up.   ;) ;)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 03, 2019, 03:46:53 pm
I think 2-cond for 15ft-er's is a good choice.  Do the Danley subs offer 4-cond in with pass thru to the tops?  I would do that over buying or making a splitter.  That (4-cond in) does eliminate misconnects (at least lessens the chance) for a new helper.

Yes they do - I could still go that route if I choose I suppose. Lots of options...

Shipping to my address would be a little cheaper, then you could pick up when you are near.  I'd let you know when they are ready for pick-up.   ;) ;)

Ha bloody ha!!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 03, 2019, 03:48:02 pm
Thanks all - so I'll look into the drop off/pick up option if it makes that much difference in price.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 03, 2019, 04:21:03 pm
Do the Danley subs offer 4-cond in with pass thru to the tops?
All the NL4's are wired in parallel on both sets of pins.

So there is a "pass though", you just need a specially wired cable with the ends clearly marked what is what.

Currently you can easily rewire the NL4s as needed.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Lee Buckalew on October 03, 2019, 05:10:46 pm
A friend of mine who is a Martin Audio user looked at those and ended up buying a set of my betas. 
I think he said the Martin ones listed for $700 or so.

US retail is $500.00

(edited to add)
I would add that this is not just a tilter that allows the speaker to sit on with a pole mount, it is rated for overhead suspension for hanging a speaker to angle it, etc. when utilizing additional accesories (truss clamps, etc.)  A different design requirement.

Lee
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 03, 2019, 07:16:12 pm
So today was interesting regarding a particular freight shipping company - Fedex.
I went online to get freight quotes from different companies which varied from $350 to $650.
Then I tried Fedex online but the system said I had to have an account number to get a quote .
So I called instead and got through to Fedex Freight and asked for a quote. Quote was $619.
He then told me not to worry because if I sign up for a free account, that will drop 60% to $248.
This seemed a decent deal after seeing those others  earlier so I was transferred to the account department. I set up the account by answering a number of questions to prove I am me and putting  my credit card on file, I  got my new account linked to my profile account online and I thought I was good to go.

So I went online to try to get a quote again and this time I kept seeing 'system error, call customer service'. So I called back again asking for a quote now I had an account set up. Even the freight page on Fedex website indicates 60% discount off first freight ship.
This time I was quoted $1800 - WHAT? The rep told me that didn't look right ( no - really?) but couldn't get the amount to adjust. She said she would have someone call me to get this handled.....
geez.. its never easy - is it?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on October 03, 2019, 08:43:55 pm
This is about the craziest thread ever.  There are now at least four different subject conversations going on.
Danley
Freight
Speaker tilters
Cabling
Mike Pyle
and the list goes on
Veritable party line!

I love this forum and its contributors!
Mix On!!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: brian maddox on October 03, 2019, 08:49:52 pm
This is about the craziest thread ever.  There are now at least four different subject conversations going on.
Danley
Freight
Speaker tilters
Cabling
Mike Pyle
and the list goes on
Veritable party line!

I love this forum and its contributors!
Mix On!!

Comms on every show i did in the 90's before matrix options became more popular.  :)

Crap...  Did i just start a new rabbit trail....
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 03, 2019, 08:51:04 pm
This is about the craziest thread ever.  There are now at least four different subject conversations going on.
Danley
Freight
Speaker tilters
Cabling
Mike Pyle
and the list goes on
Veritable party line!

I love this forum and its contributors!
Mix On!!

I liken it to friends sitting around a table drinking some beers and catching up. The conversation covers just about every subject under the sun over a few hours....
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 03, 2019, 09:26:07 pm
I liken it to friends sitting around a table drinking some beers and catching up. The conversation covers just about every subject under the sun over a few hours....

This is more of the community envisioned by LAB founder Dave Stevens. Strict, forced topicality makes for a Wiki but not so much for making acquaintances and friends with similar aspirations
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 03, 2019, 09:29:51 pm
This is more of the community envisioned by LAB founder Dave Stevens. Strict, forced topicality makes for a Wiki but not so much for making acquaintances and friends with similar aspirations

Like Dave Garoutte -I love the meandering....
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Matt Greiner on October 03, 2019, 11:15:41 pm
So today was interesting regarding a particular freight shipping company - Fedex.
I went online to get freight quotes from different companies which varied from $350 to $650.
Then I tried Fedex online but the system said I had to have an account number to get a quote .
So I called instead and got through to Fedex Freight and asked for a quote. Quote was $619.
He then told me not to worry because if I sign up for a free account, that will drop 60% to $248.
This seemed a decent deal after seeing those others  earlier so I was transferred to the account department. I set up the account by answering a number of questions to prove I am me and putting  my credit card on file, I  got my new account linked to my profile account online and I thought I was good to go.

So I went online to try to get a quote again and this time I kept seeing 'system error, call customer service'. So I called back again asking for a quote now I had an account set up. Even the freight page on Fedex website indicates 60% discount off first freight ship.
This time I was quoted $1800 - WHAT? The rep told me that didn't look right ( no - really?) but couldn't get the amount to adjust. She said she would have someone call me to get this handled.....
geez.. its never easy - is it?

The biggest variable is probably the NMFC (freight class) that they used to calculate their quote.  It's used to standardize the type of freight being shipped among all the companies.  A lower number means less cost.  Several factors go into determining freight class.  Density (dims of the pallet) and how fragile (or not) the items are, and how valuable are just a few of the variables.  As silly as it sounds, it probably costs less to ship a pallet of roof shingles than a pallet of computers, assuming they were the same size of pallet, even though the shingles would weigh much more.

With all that being said, I agree with Taylor's suggestion, make it the responsibility of the purchaser to arrange all the freight.  Having too many people interested in your used gear for sale is a good problem to have, best of luck selling!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 04, 2019, 02:52:54 am
So today was interesting regarding a particular freight shipping company - Fedex.
I went online to get freight quotes from different companies which varied from $350 to $650.
Then I tried Fedex online but the system said I had to have an account number to get a quote .
So I called instead and got through to Fedex Freight and asked for a quote. Quote was $619.
He then told me not to worry because if I sign up for a free account, that will drop 60% to $248.
This seemed a decent deal after seeing those others  earlier so I was transferred to the account department. I set up the account by answering a number of questions to prove I am me and putting  my credit card on file, I  got my new account linked to my profile account online and I thought I was good to go.

So I went online to try to get a quote again and this time I kept seeing 'system error, call customer service'. So I called back again asking for a quote now I had an account set up. Even the freight page on Fedex website indicates 60% discount off first freight ship.
This time I was quoted $1800 - WHAT? The rep told me that didn't look right ( no - really?) but couldn't get the amount to adjust. She said she would have someone call me to get this handled.....
geez.. its never easy - is it?

Check out freightquote.com  you can't do better on your own.  I have used uship too, that's a different animal though.

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Taylor Hall on October 04, 2019, 06:58:37 am
I agree with Scott. Going through the hassle of setting up accounts with individual carriers is rarely worth it unless you've got some serious volume of shipments. Going with a broker like freghtquote, unishippers or uship will get you better rates and also access to pretty much every carrier under the sun.

Something else that I forgot to mention is to BUY THE INSURANCE for whatever carrier you go with. It's 20 bucks or so and will cover anything that happens to it during transit.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 04, 2019, 10:23:51 am
I requested a quote through FreightPros and got $274 for both cabs palletized including insurance. One more quote to come back....
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: David Allred on October 04, 2019, 12:04:01 pm
I requested a quote through FreightPros and got $274 for both cabs palletized including insurance. One more quote to come back....
I don't have any experience other than what tips I have heard.
Find a freight carrier that has a terminal in the source city and a terminal in your city, or near where you can travel a small distance to pick at the terminal.  Regular routes... terminal to terminal are cheapest.  What I have heard anyway.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 04, 2019, 12:47:45 pm
We always ship terminal to terminal.  Cheaper, we don't have to sit and wait for delivery, and any damage claim can be filed before accepting the shipment at the receiving terminal.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Brian Bolly on October 04, 2019, 12:57:10 pm
This is more of the community envisioned by LAB founder Dave Stevens. Strict, forced topicality makes for a Wiki but not so much for making acquaintances and friends with similar aspirations

Where's the "Like" button when you need it?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 04, 2019, 01:12:36 pm
I requested a quote through FreightPros and got $274 for both cabs palletized including insurance. One more quote to come back....

I realized a short while ago that although I covered the weight for the wheels, covers and packaging, I forgot to include the pallet - doh!

I have written to the 2 guys who have shown interest and told them to call the guy I spoke to at Freight Pros and get all the  details if they wish to proceed.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 04, 2019, 01:13:57 pm
We always ship terminal to terminal.  Cheaper, we don't have to sit and wait for delivery, and any damage claim can be filed before accepting the shipment at the receiving terminal.

Yes Tim it does make a difference in cost - my quote was for terminal to terminal.  I hadn't considered the other advantages you mention though...thanks for that.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: David Allred on October 04, 2019, 01:41:18 pm
Yes Tim it does make a difference in cost - my quote was for terminal to terminal.  I hadn't considered the other advantages you mention though...thanks for that.
And the whole.. "gotta have a dock or pay a premium for a lift gate truck."
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 04, 2019, 07:54:50 pm
We always ship terminal to terminal.  Cheaper, we don't have to sit and wait for delivery, and any damage claim can be filed before accepting the shipment at the receiving terminal.

Yes, and you can put the pallet in your van and then set the gear on it.  A pallet jack and a ramp can be a bitch.  They will just fork it out of your van at the terminal.

When receiving they will drop the pallet by the dumpster or scrap pallet pile.  We can unpack and move it into the truck item by item.

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 04, 2019, 08:50:43 pm
Yes, and you can put the pallet in your van and then set the gear on it.  A pallet jack and a ramp can be a bitch.  They will just fork it out of your van at the terminal.

When receiving they will drop the pallet by the dumpster or scrap pallet pile.  We can unpack and move it into the truck item by item.
And the whole.. "gotta have a dock or pay a premium for a lift gate truck."

And the correct answer is "D", all the above!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ed Hall on October 05, 2019, 08:05:10 pm
Wow, Shipping seems like a real PITA for one offs.  This is why I chose to drive over 750 miles to pick up 4 JTR Growlers.
It was a nice one day road trip. I got to have dinner with an old friend I hadn't seen in years, and it only cost me about $165 in fuel and tolls.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 06, 2019, 12:11:36 am
Wow, Shipping seems like a real PITA for one offs.  This is why I chose to drive over 750 miles to pick up 4 JTR Growlers.
It was a nice one day road trip. I got to have dinner with an old friend I hadn't seen in years, and it only cost me about $165 in fuel and tolls.

One of my interested buyers is in CA and I am in NC so that's a bit too far. Ironically we are visiting CA at the end of this month - I wish I could take them with me.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Barry Reynolds on October 06, 2019, 01:18:14 am
One of my interested buyers is in CA and I am in NC so that's a bit too far. Ironically we are visiting CA at the end of this month - I wish I could take them with me.

Debbie, I shipped two SRX718s via UShip.com recently for $350.  Just on casters and covers.  No boxes, no pallets, no trouble.

It is free to solicit bids without obligation.  You only pay upon delivery.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Marc Vangrunderbeek on October 06, 2019, 05:29:07 am
I DID IT!  I spoke with Mike and we are moving ahead!

2 X TH118
2 X SM80
2 X T602 (thanks Chris Grimshaw)
Covers for everything but the amps (for now).
Just need to work out what I need in SpeakOns ...
WOOP WOOP...

Anyone interested in an SRX rig?

(When Chris and I get evicted, is anyone willing to take 2 adults, 3 dogs and a cat? OH and a nice Danley system?)

Iím curious why you choose TH118 instead of TH118XL
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 06, 2019, 05:38:06 am
Iím curious why you choose TH118 instead of TH118XL

Me too I didn't catch that.

Now I have an another reason to come visit!

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on October 06, 2019, 07:13:29 am
I'd guess it's because the XL is 5" taller and 25lbs heavier, in exchange for a few Hz more low-frequency response that might not be needed.

Chris
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 06, 2019, 10:45:53 am
I'd guess it's because the XL is 5" taller and 25lbs heavier, in exchange for a few Hz more low-frequency response that might not be needed.

Chris

This^
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Rob Spence on October 07, 2019, 01:12:11 pm
One of my interested buyers is in CA and I am in NC so that's a bit too far. Ironically we are visiting CA at the end of this month - I wish I could take them with me.


If you drive, a small uhaul trailer could combine with some nice sightseeing.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on October 07, 2019, 01:27:43 pm
This^
Based on this weekend,s octoberfest DJ gig, The non-XL goes plenty low, and musically.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Steve Ferreira on October 07, 2019, 01:54:42 pm
This thread has really go me thinking of selling my SRX 700s for some Danley's. Watching videos and searching the net really has me debating if I should or not.

Ivan,
Is there a Canadian distributor? Mainly in the Toronto, Ontario area.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 07, 2019, 02:03:15 pm


If you drive, a small uhaul trailer could combine with some nice sightseeing.

Mmm.. it takes 5 days there and 5 days back Rob...
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 07, 2019, 02:07:11 pm
Based on this weekend,s octoberfest DJ gig, The non-XL goes plenty low, and musically.

Good to hear Dave  - there is no way I would ever need the XL's. I bet the 4 TH118's were thumping!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Rob Spence on October 07, 2019, 02:28:43 pm
Mmm.. it takes 5 days there and 5 days back Rob...

So?  😁
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Guilford on October 07, 2019, 03:32:48 pm
This thread has really go me thinking of selling my SRX 700s for some Danley's. Watching videos and searching the net really has me debating if I should or not.

Ivan,
Is there a Canadian distributor? Mainly in the Toronto, Ontario area.

 Let me know when you are ready. I am in Buffalo New York and Iíve made a trip up to Toronto before to pick up SRX 700 Rig
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 07, 2019, 07:16:55 pm


Ivan,
Is there a Canadian distributor? Mainly in the Toronto, Ontario area.
I don't follow the distributor network.  Sorry.

skip@danleysoundlabs.com  is the regional manager for the upper east coast US and some of Canada.

I would start by contacting him.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on October 07, 2019, 11:29:28 pm
This thread has really go me thinking of selling my SRX 700s for some Danley's. Watching videos and searching the net really has me debating if I should or not.

Ivan,
Is there a Canadian distributor? Mainly in the Toronto, Ontario area.
Authorized Canadian dealer right here. You can email me at sales@exetermusic.com
Cheers
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 08, 2019, 04:03:48 pm
Just made up all my SpeakON cables. One question.... When using the neutrik NL4MMX SpeakON coupler to connect 2 x 15ft SpeakON cables,  is there any (much) loss compared to using 1 x 30ft cable?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Taylor Hall on October 08, 2019, 04:18:18 pm
Just made up all my SpeakON cables. One question.... When using the neutrik NL4MMX SpeakON coupler to connect 2 x 15ft SpeakON cables,  is there any (much) loss compared to using 1 x 30ft cable?
I wager you'd be hard pressed to find a difference unless your two 15ft cables were of different gauge wire.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 08, 2019, 04:21:50 pm
I wager you'd be hard pressed to find a difference unless your two 15ft cables were of different gauge wire.

Thanks Taylor. This would only be in an emergency if one amp went down. I am keeping to the short length cables with an amp per stack and I didn't want to keep a long cable with me just for that purpose. I hope I NEVER have to use this method but it makes sense to be prepared  so I can get through a show running mono.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dennis Wiggins on October 08, 2019, 08:53:22 pm
Based on this weekend,s octoberfest DJ gig, The non-XL goes plenty low, and musically.

Would the DJ "monitors" be a candidate for reverse tilt?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Rick Powell on October 08, 2019, 09:23:24 pm
Just made up all my SpeakON cables. One question.... When using the neutrik NL4MMX SpeakON coupler to connect 2 x 15ft SpeakON cables,  is there any (much) loss compared to using 1 x 30ft cable?

Looked up the Neutrik SpeakON specs for the 4 pole coupler. Minimal resistance of 3mOhm after a lifetime of use, rated 15A continuous. Iíd say you are good in a pinch as long as your cables are OK.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 11, 2019, 04:41:30 pm
Looked up the Neutrik SpeakON specs for the 4 pole coupler. Minimal resistance of 3mOhm after a lifetime of use, rated 15A continuous. Iíd say you are good in a pinch as long as your cables are OK.

Thanks Rick
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 11, 2019, 04:46:49 pm
My Powersoft amps arrived today .... I was so excited till I turned one on and realized I am out of my depth with this. I am used to plugging in, turning the knob and off I go. My last system comprised Crown XTI6002's and  DBX drive rack which was SO easy to program. This might as well be rocket science - this poor old brain don't get it!

So first I need to download Armonia. The manual states PC XP and higher - I am ALL MAC. First problem.
From there I haven't a clue......gonna need some assistance - HELP???


I dragged out my old Toshiba laptop which surprisingly fired up once plugged in...
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Frank Koenig on October 11, 2019, 07:19:26 pm
My Powersoft amps arrived today .... I was so excited till I turned one on and realized I am out of my depth with this. I am used to plugging in, turning the knob and off I go. My last system comprised Crown XTI6002's and  DBX drive rack which was SO easy to program. This might as well be rocket science - this poor old brain don't get it!

Debbie, fear not. Armonia is not so bad. If I were closer I'd walk you through it. It has a lot of stuff for managing big systems that you can cheerfully ignore.

Once you get it to find your devices and store a .pawx file then all you need to see is the "System List" tab. Turn on the amps, start Armonia, get a cup of coffee (it's slow), Click on the stupid "ball" icon in the upper left and tell it to open the .pawx file. In the system list click on "Details" for the amp you're interested in. This will create a tab for that amp that will persist for the session and open the main control window for that amp. From there it's pretty self-explanatory. The have funny names for things like "Ways" and "Scheme". But once you get in there it's all the familiar stuff: input routing, input EQ, output EQ, limiters, clip limiter.

Let us know if you get stuck anywhere and be assured it sucks less than some control programs.

--Frank
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 11, 2019, 08:03:27 pm
Debbie, fear not. Armonia is not so bad. If I were closer I'd walk you through it. It has a lot of stuff for managing big systems that you can cheerfully ignore.

Once you get it to find your devices and store a .pawx file then all you need to see is the "System List" tab. Turn on the amps, start Armonia, get a cup of coffee (it's slow), Click on the stupid "ball" icon in the upper left and tell it to open the .pawx file. In the system list click on "Details" for the amp you're interested in. This will create a tab for that amp that will persist for the session and open the main control window for that amp. From there it's pretty self-explanatory. The have funny names for things like "Ways" and "Scheme". But once you get in there it's all the familiar stuff: input routing, input EQ, output EQ, limiters, clip limiter.

Let us know if you get stuck anywhere and be assured it sucks less than some control programs.

--Frank

Thanks Frank.

My first problem was I don't have PCís - Iím all Mac and Armonia is not compatible with Mac - surprisingly..
So, I grabbed my old Toshiba ( as I said in my last post) which I havenít even looked at for 3 years and which also has a defective battery but once plugged into the mains it fortunately booted up for me. It took the first couple of hours just to get it up to date and it is a dog too use but it is working.
Then, I managed to download the Armonia application and started to check it out. I registered as a user and whilst attempting to set up my system virtually, I tried to get the Danley settings Mike gave me into the application but it is looking for extension .PAWT and Mike sent me  .PAWX which you are saying is correct. I Armonia does not seem to recognize what I am trying to do.  Also the software did not recognize the Danley .SPK extensions that Mike provided for me.
I haven't even got close to how Iím going to download the settings into the amps yet.

I have Chris helping me because he is better with PC's but we are both limping through a bit and are now stuck.
I really need some guidance because this is a little beyond my capabilitiesÖ.I wish you were closer too!!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Taylor Hall on October 11, 2019, 08:09:41 pm
I would look into getting a copy of Parallels, it will let you run Windows in a virtual environment on your Mac and let you use all the same ports and network connections so you won't have to lug around two laptops.

I wish I knew more about Armonia (or had any Powersoft gear for that matter!) to be able to help out, hopefully the lightbulb comes on sooner than later!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 11, 2019, 08:15:10 pm
I would look into getting a copy of Parallels, it will let you run Windows in a virtual environment on your Mac and let you use all the same ports and network connections so you won't have to lug around two laptops.

I wish I knew more about Armonia (or had any Powersoft gear for that matter!) to be able to help out, hopefully the lightbulb comes on sooner than later!

Thanks Taylor - good to know but I have no intention of taking lap tops to shows - I need to be ready to plug and play.

edit for spelling
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Frank Koenig on October 11, 2019, 09:12:40 pm
I have no intension of taking lap tops to shows.

The only reason to run Armonia at a show is if you're pushing it and want to watch the limiters, or are bored and want to check "Live Impedance" to get that healthy speaker glow and live your intergalactic space ship control room fantasy.

I use Powersofts for multiple speaker systems in multiple configurations and put a tape label on the amp rack to remind me which configuration it's in. No Armonia required at the show. I do always have the laptop, and a backup USB flash drive, along just in case something is messed up. I assume that you, as I, set your sub delay (and gain?) from the mixer's main/matrix.

You're going love this once you learn it.

--Frank
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 11, 2019, 09:34:33 pm
The only reason to run Armonia at a show is if you're pushing it and want to watch the limiters, or are bored and want to check "Live Impedance" to get that healthy speaker glow and live your intergalactic space ship control room fantasy.

I use Powersofts for multiple speaker systems in multiple configurations and put a tape label on the amp rack to remind me which configuration it's in. No Armonia required at the show. I do always have the laptop, and a backup USB flash drive, along just in case something is messed up. I assume that you, as I, set your sub delay (and gain?) from the mixer's main/matrix.

You're going love this once you learn it.

--Frank

Yes , I want to do everything from the mixer - I have no need to be anything other than 'old school' in that regard.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on October 11, 2019, 09:41:44 pm
Would the DJ "monitors" be a candidate for reverse tilt?
Yup, But I just made some pins to hook the tops to the subs and tilted the whole mess.
The next day, I just used the tops.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on October 12, 2019, 04:34:42 am
Thanks Taylor - good to know but I have no intention of taking lap tops to shows - I need to be ready to plug and play.

edit for spelling

FWIW, I take a laptop to shows. It's an older model Lenovo Yoga, which folds back on itself to become a tablet. I keep it light, having REW, Armonia and Foobar2000 on it, and that's about it. It gets thrown in the "I.T." bag with the iPads, and I grab it when I want/need it. As Frank said, often just to watch things and feel like I'm on a spaceship.


I'm pretty sure you'll need to be running Armonia Plus for the T-series amps. Here's how to do it:

- Connect the amps (by Cat5) to your network. You can daisy chain them. With that in place, connect the laptop to the same network (over WiFi is fine), and open Armonia.
- At the bottom, click "Match", and then "Discovery" at the top right. That should net you a list of amplifiers on your network.
- Click "Add All" to put them in your work space.

You'll get something like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/2VGa6Pz.png)

Now, Danley doesn't appear in the Speaker Preset list, so we're going to be putting numbers in ourselves. You'll need to ask Danley for what the numbers should be, I'm just going to show you where to put them.

First up, click the little arrow/pointer icon next to the "add" button at the bottom, and then double-click on an amplifier. You'll get this:

(https://i.imgur.com/qRjuoFJ.png)

Click the circled bit.

... and make your screen look like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/g5ROD4q.png)

That means both amplifier channels are going to respond to the input on Ch1. Don't worry about if it's Dante/AES/analogue - there's an automatic backup structure, and it'll work with whichever you plug in.

Next, we're going to look at crossover & EQ stuff:

(https://i.imgur.com/Cb5EDdy.png)

This is where the info from Danley will come in. I could guess at what might be needed, but it'd almost certainly be wrong.

Next, we're going to go to the limiter page:
(https://i.imgur.com/Cb5EDdy.png)


With that lot in place, you should be just about set. Navigate down the tabs on the left to the icon that looks like a floppy disk drive, and you'll be able to save that as a "snapshot" of the amplifier's overall condition. Standby mode, mains limiting, the lot.

Since you're in the USA, and you don't want to use a laptop each time, it might be prudent to come up with a couple of different snapshots that have different mains current limiters in place. It's not a big deal here in the UK (we can pull 13A continuous at 240v, and the fuses will pass 30A for a second), but it sounds like you guys have real trouble with tripping breakers, so being able to clamp the mains current down will be beneficial.


Anyway, save some snapshots.

With those in place, you can recall them at a gig from the amp front panel. I'd also recommend saving to the laptop and a pendrive, which I'd tape inside the amp rack.

You can then move the preset from your laptop to the second amplifier by clicking the arrow icon at the bottom, and double-clicking the second amp.


Good luck, and if you've got any questions, as away.

Chris

PS - If you want to run subs on Aux (not my jam, but there you go), keep it as two separate inputs. Feed left/LF to one amp, and right/LF to the other. There's XLR daisy-chaining on the back of the amps. Might help:

L/R/LF from desk, feed L/LF to first amp, LF from first amp to second amp, R from desk to second amp.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 12, 2019, 10:18:10 am
FWIW, I take a laptop to shows. It's an older model Lenovo Yoga, which folds back on itself to become a tablet. I keep it light, having REW, Armonia and Foobar2000 on it, and that's about it. It gets thrown in the "I.T." bag with the iPads, and I grab it when I want/need it. As Frank said, often just to watch things and feel like I'm on a spaceship.


I'm pretty sure you'll need to be running Armonia Plus for the T-series amps. Here's how to do it:

- Connect the amps (by Cat5) to your network. You can daisy chain them. With that in place, connect the laptop to the same network (over WiFi is fine), and open Armonia.
- At the bottom, click "Match", and then "Discovery" at the top right. That should net you a list of amplifiers on your network.
- Click "Add All" to put them in your work space.

You'll get something like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/2VGa6Pz.png)

Now, Danley doesn't appear in the Speaker Preset list, so we're going to be putting numbers in ourselves. You'll need to ask Danley for what the numbers should be, I'm just going to show you where to put them.

First up, click the little arrow/pointer icon next to the "add" button at the bottom, and then double-click on an amplifier. You'll get this:

(https://i.imgur.com/qRjuoFJ.png)

Click the circled bit.

... and make your screen look like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/g5ROD4q.png)

That means both amplifier channels are going to respond to the input on Ch1. Don't worry about if it's Dante/AES/analogue - there's an automatic backup structure, and it'll work with whichever you plug in.

Next, we're going to look at crossover & EQ stuff:

(https://i.imgur.com/Cb5EDdy.png)

This is where the info from Danley will come in. I could guess at what might be needed, but it'd almost certainly be wrong.

Next, we're going to go to the limiter page:
(https://i.imgur.com/Cb5EDdy.png)


With that lot in place, you should be just about set. Navigate down the tabs on the left to the icon that looks like a floppy disk drive, and you'll be able to save that as a "snapshot" of the amplifier's overall condition. Standby mode, mains limiting, the lot.

Since you're in the USA, and you don't want to use a laptop each time, it might be prudent to come up with a couple of different snapshots that have different mains current limiters in place. It's not a big deal here in the UK (we can pull 13A continuous at 240v, and the fuses will pass 30A for a second), but it sounds like you guys have real trouble with tripping breakers, so being able to clamp the mains current down will be beneficial.


Anyway, save some snapshots.

With those in place, you can recall them at a gig from the amp front panel. I'd also recommend saving to the laptop and a pendrive, which I'd tape inside the amp rack.

You can then move the preset from your laptop to the second amplifier by clicking the arrow icon at the bottom, and double-clicking the second amp.


Good luck, and if you've got any questions, as away.

Chris

PS - If you want to run subs on Aux (not my jam, but there you go), keep it as two separate inputs. Feed left/LF to one amp, and right/LF to the other. There's XLR daisy-chaining on the back of the amps. Might help:

L/R/LF from desk, feed L/LF to first amp, LF from first amp to second amp, R from desk to second amp.

Thanks Chris - I am using your instructions to progress. I have managed to update the firmware in the amps and I am at the EQ screen. Not sure how to differentiate between channel 1 and 2 though - remember I need to run the sub from channel 1 and top from channel 2.

Is it analog 1 and analog 2?

I've got to the limiter section but your screen shot is of the EQ section (duplicated)... so I'm not sure what to populate. I do have some limiter settings from Danley but there are a lot more parameter options than I have number for so I am not sure exactly which numbers are needed and which are not.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on October 12, 2019, 12:49:52 pm
Woops, looks like I messed up the images slightly.

The tabs across the top (once you're at the EQ page) are the processing for each channel.
I've labelled up (on the left-hand side) where to click to access the processing for Ch1 and Ch2.

Chris
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 12, 2019, 01:00:05 pm
Woops, looks like I messed up the images slightly.

The tabs across the top (once you're at the EQ page) are the processing for each channel.
I've labelled up (on the left-hand side) where to click to access the processing for Ch1 and Ch2.

Chris

yes I have already been playing with the limiter screen. My problem is that there are so many limiter options available and I only have basic numbers so not sure what goes where. Eg... on the Danley sheet Mike provided me, I see RMS limiter, Thermal limiter with attack and release settings and XMax limiter settings.
However, in Armonia, I see RMS limiter WITH release and attack settings, Peak limiter with same, Clip limiter with same, True power with same, Current limiter with same.
I have no clue what to put where.....
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Frank Koenig on October 12, 2019, 01:20:38 pm
I'm pretty sure you'll need to be running Armonia Plus for the T-series amps. Here's how to do it:

That's a nice tutorial. I didn't realize that the T-series requires you to use Armonia+, so I was referring to Armonia (classic) that I still can use with  K-series and Ottocanali. I looked at A+ when it came out but it didn't solve any problem I thought I had so I stuck with Armonia. PS appears to continue to support it for now. I see what they called "Scheme" for K and "Ways" for Otto they now call "Design" for T. Maybe one day they'll settle on a translation. But it looks like the actual controls are pretty much the same for all of them. The full matrix for input routing on the Otto is pretty nice and I see that T has that, too.

--Frank

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 12, 2019, 01:47:42 pm
I am trying to register the amps online but the activation link PS sent me doesn't work so I've sent them a message....bit frustrating.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 12, 2019, 03:05:58 pm
Regarding EQ: The Danley DSP settings document I have for SM80 shows freq, Q and gain which I am used to but it also has some values for bandwidth. I don't see this is an option on the EQ page on Armonia. Is it important and if so where would I find it on Armonia?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Rob Spence on October 12, 2019, 03:39:47 pm
Regarding EQ: The Danley DSP settings document I have for SM80 shows freq, Q and gain which I am used to but it also has some values for bandwidth. I don't see this is an option on the EQ page on Armonia. Is it important and if so where would I find it on Armonia?

Q & Bandwidth are two ways of describing the width of the filter or slope.

Some DSPs want one and some want the other. JR and Ivan have expressed frustration with the industry failing to standardize on a definition.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 12, 2019, 04:46:01 pm
Where is Danley in all of this configuration stuff?  They should have a preset file that just works.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on October 12, 2019, 04:58:41 pm
IIRC, Ivan was working with an X8 to derive some presets. Not sure of the progress of that, though.

Chris
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Nathan Riddle on October 12, 2019, 07:57:41 pm
Where is Danley in all of this configuration stuff?  They should have a preset file that just works.

For their amps. And old powersoft...?

I would imagine buying a non Danley amp with a Danley system is understood to "you can roll your own".

T series is new. Seems armonia files need to be updated to armonia+ since Mike Pyle sent her the K series presets.

That's not to say that Danley can't/won't help people out. But we already need to get Debbie/anyone to the point of being able to configure the amps from Her laptop with A+ and then convert the files. Non trivial tasks for the uninitiated when software that can do complicated stuff is normally very confusing for simple tasks.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ed Hall on October 12, 2019, 07:58:21 pm
Regarding EQ: The Danley DSP settings document I have for SM80 shows freq, Q and gain which I am used to but it also has some values for bandwidth. I don't see this is an option on the EQ page on Armonia. Is it important and if so where would I find it on Armonia?

Here (http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-bandwidth.htm) is a link to a page to convert Bandwidth and Q. Welcome to the world of system tech.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 13, 2019, 08:07:37 pm
Rob and Ed  : Thanks - makes sense.
Chris: Ivan provided Mike spk2 file. Also, thank you so much for all the info you have provided.

Having spent yesterday evening at a show and today rehearsing, I will continue tomorrow to try to get the amps programmed up.
My stumbling block right now is making sure I have the Limiter section values all plugged in right. I am getting confused with
there being so many limiter type options and the fact they already have preset values in them .
I need to make sure I have good handle on what that screen is all about with so many different limiter terms.
I have the EQs and crossovers  pretty much dialed in I think.
I worry that I'll connect everything up when the speakers arrive and blow something up!!!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on October 14, 2019, 12:50:17 am

I worry that I'll connect everything up when the speakers arrive and blow something up!!!

I think your eardrums will blow first. :o
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on October 14, 2019, 03:26:54 am

I worry that I'll connect everything up when the speakers arrive and blow something up!!!

It's unlikely. So long as your highpass filters are set properly (ie, the drivers are protected from mechanical damage), the speakers will tell you they're in distress well before melting.

If in doubt, push the fader slowly while listening.

Amusing side-story:
- Distributor brought some T-series amps for me to try out in a local venue (I know the owner, and had permission to make some noise)
- Chap admits it's the first time those amps have been connected to speakers, as this was the first demo in the UK of these amps
- Spend a little while dialling in processing
- Run up some music, sounds okay
- Push the fader a bit, and there's a rattling noise on kick drums. Strange.
- Listen for a while trying to find the source, and it's the HF drivers
- Check processing again, all the EQs and crossovers have magically been flattened, and the HF drivers were receiving full-band signal. That rattling was the diaphragms hitting the phase plugs.
- Dial in processing again, all sounds good.
- Later, I opened up the HF drivers to inspect for damage. Not a scratch.

Good-quality equipment is remarkably tolerate to abuse. I honestly expect you'd be fine to run without limiters, so long as you can hear the speakers and will turn it down if it's obvious the system is being pushed too hard.

Chris
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 14, 2019, 06:20:12 am
It's unlikely. So long as your highpass filters are set properly (ie, the drivers are protected from mechanical damage), the speakers will tell you they're in distress well before melting.

If in doubt, push the fader slowly while listening.

Amusing side-story:
- Distributor brought some T-series amps for me to try out in a local venue (I know the owner, and had permission to make some noise)
- Chap admits it's the first time those amps have been connected to speakers, as this was the first demo in the UK of these amps
- Spend a little while dialling in processing
- Run up some music, sounds okay
- Push the fader a bit, and there's a rattling noise on kick drums. Strange.
- Listen for a while trying to find the source, and it's the HF drivers
- Check processing again, all the EQs and crossovers have magically been flattened, and the HF drivers were receiving full-band signal. That rattling was the diaphragms hitting the phase plugs.
- Dial in processing again, all sounds good.
- Later, I opened up the HF drivers to inspect for damage. Not a scratch.

Good-quality equipment is remarkably tolerate to abuse. I honestly expect you'd be fine to run without limiters, so long as you can hear the speakers and will turn it down if it's obvious the system is being pushed too hard.

Chris

I have not blown a speaker (personally, had others damage my gear) in 20 years and I wqs really abusing that rig.

I have however dropped a KW181 off the back of a truck and knocked the magnet off (it's riveted) so stupidity knows no bounds.

I think of Debbie dropped one of jer speakers she would have a heart attack on the spot.   Whoever gets her JBL rig is lucky!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 14, 2019, 12:05:59 pm
IIRC, Ivan was working with an X8 to derive some presets. Not sure of the progress of that, though.

Chris
I have some Armonia presets, but Powersoft wanted their amp back, so we don't have one to create presets on.  So it came to a halt.

 
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on October 14, 2019, 12:47:15 pm
I have some Armonia presets, but Powersoft wanted their amp back, so we don't have one to create presets on.  So it came to a halt.

Maybe this would help .... IIR replicator (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMN8QSaHWJ4&feature=youtu.be&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=iir_filter_conversion_new_in_fir_designer&utm_term=2019-10-14)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 14, 2019, 02:07:52 pm
Here are my Limiter screens for TH118 and SM80. I have only entered some values in RMS limiter - all the other were pre populated.
I had to take the photos with my phone because I couldn't get screen print to work ( like I said, my old laptop is bit of a dog)


EDIT: It looks like my last few changes did not save and I took these shots before I realized. I've gone back in and made the changes:
I now have limiter release on the SM's at 1.5s and on the TH118's at 4.5s as per the Danley workup Mike provided me.
Everything else remans the same.
All the other available limiter values have been disabled so I only have RMS activated.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 14, 2019, 02:15:55 pm
Here are the EQ/crossover settings I have applied:
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 14, 2019, 02:28:16 pm
Chris, I followed your instructions to the letter. Thank you so much for the time you spent laying it all out for me step by step.
I am a little more comfortable using Armonia now - although there are still aspects of it that I don't understand and for my application I probably don't want to- LOL.
The speakers are not here yet but when they arrive of course I want to connect this bad boy up and experience the Danley THANG.
I made sure to set the previous 'gain' screen to just how you showed to enable connection to only one input of the amp from the mixer so If my screenshots for EQ/Crossover and Limiting look right, could you confirm I am safe to go ahead?
I presumably need to bring down the tops to match the bottoms, so would I be OK to keep the gain settings on full saved to the snapshot and just adjust the levels on the front panels at shows?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 14, 2019, 03:20:41 pm
I have not blown a speaker (personally, had others damage my gear) in 20 years and I wqs really abusing that rig.

I have however dropped a KW181 off the back of a truck and knocked the magnet off (it's riveted) so stupidity knows no bounds.

I think of Debbie dropped one of jer speakers she would have a heart attack on the spot.   Whoever gets her JBL rig is lucky!

Yes - I'd have to be hospitalized......I wish I could find used equipment like this when I am in the market.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 14, 2019, 04:13:00 pm
One more thing..... Powersoft provides 3 region specific power cords.
As these are not the usual IEC or powercons, I believe they are called C-19, I'd like to always have a spare with me and I was wondering if I could use one of the other regional cords by either cutting off the plug OR getting an adaptor of sorts.... thoughts?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Jeffrey Knorr - CobraSound.com on October 14, 2019, 04:40:53 pm
One more thing..... Powersoft provides 3 region specific power cords.
As these are not the usual IEC or powercons, I believe they are called C-19, I'd like to always have a spare with me and I was wondering if I could use one of the other regional cords by either cutting off the plug OR getting an adaptor of sorts.... thoughts?

Yes, you could cut the end off of one of the other cables and wire your desired plug on.  We're working on an install now with Powersoft amps.  We're going to keep the other cables for spares just in case one of the US cables goes missing.

Jeff
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 14, 2019, 05:11:57 pm
Yes, you could cut the end off of one of the other cables and wire your desired plug on.  We're working on an install now with Powersoft amps.  We're going to keep the other cables for spares just in case one of the US cables goes missing.

Jeff

I think I'll do that. Is one Australian and the other EU?. The EU one has no ground.... bit worrying??
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Taylor Hall on October 14, 2019, 05:30:57 pm
I think I'll do that. Is one Australian and the other EU?. The EU one has no ground.... bit worrying??
Aussie plugs should resemble a grounded US plug but with slightly angled hot/neutral prongs and a flat ground prong.

That would be interesting if they ship that amp with a type-C cable as those are for low-amperage applications (I think somewhere around 2-3A, my Euro code is a bit fuzzy). Is it a flat-ish plug end (https://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plugs-and-sockets/c/) with only two round prongs? Or a round plug (https://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plugs-and-sockets/f/) with two round prongs and a metal lip and/or hole in the top center of the face of the plug surface?

I wouldn't operate the amp without a ground, especially since it's part of the IEC connector on the amp itself.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 14, 2019, 06:30:01 pm
Aussie plugs should resemble a grounded US plug but with slightly angled hot/neutral prongs and a flat ground prong.

That would be interesting if they ship that amp with a type-C cable as those are for low-amperage applications (I think somewhere around 2-3A, my Euro code is a bit fuzzy). Is it a flat-ish plug end (https://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plugs-and-sockets/c/) with only two round prongs? Or a round plug (https://www.worldstandards.eu/electricity/plugs-and-sockets/f/) with two round prongs and a metal lip and/or hole in the top center of the face of the plug surface?

I wouldn't operate the amp without a ground, especially since it's part of the IEC connector on the amp itself.

Yes so one is Aussie and the other is EU - only 2 round prongs and NO ground.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Mike Pyle on October 14, 2019, 06:35:04 pm
Yes so one is Aussie and the other is EU - only 2 round prongs and NO ground.

The ground is either a hole in the face of the plug or exposed metal strips on the sides.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 14, 2019, 06:39:22 pm
The ground is either a hole in the face of the plug or exposed metal strips on the sides.

Aaah... yes I see that. So the ground pin is in the receptacle?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 14, 2019, 06:47:35 pm
Would this work so I don't have to 'cut the cord' ??
https://www.signalandpower.com/collections/usa-canada-mexico-japan-taiwan/products/australia-as3112-to-usa-nema-5-15p
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 14, 2019, 06:49:30 pm
Would this work so I don't have to 'cut the cord' ??
https://www.signalandpower.com/collections/usa-canada-mexico-japan-taiwan/products/australia-as3112-to-usa-nema-5-15p

I would not even consider this.  Just cut the plug off and install a high quality leviton commercial plug.

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 14, 2019, 06:54:48 pm
I would not even consider this.  Just cut the plug off and install a high quality leviton commercial plug.

Sounds good to me - will do.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Geert Friedhof on October 14, 2019, 07:47:09 pm
European colourcode:

blue - neutral
brown or black- hot
yellow/green - ground
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 14, 2019, 08:14:07 pm
European colourcode:

blue - neutral
brown or black- hot
yellow/green - ground

Thanks Geert - I believe it was the same in the UK from what I remember ( I've lived here for most of my adult life so I forget stuff these days)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Taylor Hall on October 14, 2019, 08:48:15 pm
Aaah... yes I see that. So the ground pin is in the receptacle?

Yep, either a prong sticks out of the outlet or the metal lip grounds directly to the outlet itself.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 14, 2019, 09:23:23 pm
Thanks Geert - I believe it was the same in the UK from what I remember ( I've lived here for most of my adult life so I forget stuff these days)

I always have to lookup the brown/blue.  Never can keep it memorized sufficiently that I trust myself.  Last time was wiring some LED floods in my backyard into the box so had to look it up while on the ladder! 
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on October 15, 2019, 03:51:36 am
I made sure to set the previous 'gain' screen to just how you showed to enable connection to only one input of the amp from the mixer so If my screenshots for EQ/Crossover and Limiting look right, could you confirm I am safe to go ahead?
I presumably need to bring down the tops to match the bottoms, so would I be OK to keep the gain settings on full saved to the snapshot and just adjust the levels on the front panels at shows?

Your settings look fine to me.

Instead of setting the LF/HF balance every show, I'd go with a nominal setting and tweak it if you think it's necessary. Saves you dialing in -12dB, -11dB, -12dB... For the next three shows.



With regards to cables, I'd cut the cable and add the connectors you want to use. Mine turned up with a few different EU connectors (all grounded), so I grabbed a couple of the big ones and put 13A plugs on them. I've thought about getting some 16A Ceeform connectors, too, but I haven't hit the limits of a 13A plug yet.

The power situation is quite different in the USA, so I'd suggest making up a couple of different cables so you've got options for domestic and high-power use.

Chris
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 15, 2019, 08:27:14 am
I always have to lookup the brown/blue.  Never can keep it memorized sufficiently that I trust myself.  Last time was wiring some LED floods in my backyard into the box so had to look it up while on the ladder!
Here is how I remember it.

Think of the sky as blue and it would be "up or high" and the ground would be brown, and be low.

Now just REVERSE that and you have Brown hot/high and Blue low.

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: David Allred on October 15, 2019, 09:18:28 am
Here is how I remember it.

Think of the sky as blue and it would be "up or high" and the ground would be brown, and be low.

Now just REVERSE that and you have Brown hot/high and Blue low.
DC powered photo and proximity sensors use BR(+), Blue(-) as a standard, so the EU standard is easy for me.  But here is a trick.  If you burn red (hot) it will turn brown(+).  Green is obviously ::) ground.  Blue is neutral (it flows wherever gravity takes it).
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 15, 2019, 09:23:27 am
I remember years ago the color code being much more obvious so I checked and lo and behold prior to 1977, in the UK it used to be red-live, black-neutral and green-earth(ground). Perhaps it changed to confirm with the EU.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 15, 2019, 09:44:45 am
Check the conductor size on the cables intended for 240V use - they're likely smaller.  Use the largest conductor cable for your 120V spare.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 15, 2019, 09:57:38 am
Check the conductor size on the cables intended for 240V use - they're likely smaller.  Use the largest conductor cable for your 120V spare.

The US cable shows 1.31mm and the other 2 show 1.5mm
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 15, 2019, 11:43:04 am
The US cable shows 1.31mm and the other 2 show 1.5mm
You're in!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 15, 2019, 01:15:27 pm
You're in!

Cool - thanks Tim.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: David Allred on October 15, 2019, 01:30:57 pm
You're in!

.008" difference........15%. 
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 15, 2019, 01:49:59 pm
.008" difference........15%.

David-

The point to my post was that power cables used in 240v service can have HALF of the ampacity (and thus a smaller size) of cables used for 120v service.  That the supplied cables for 240v service have larger conductors, even by a small amount, is a big plus for Debbie's intended use as spares.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: David Allred on October 15, 2019, 03:36:17 pm
David-

The point to my post was that power cables used in 240v service can have HALF of the ampacity (and thus a smaller size) of cables used for 120v service.  That the supplied cables for 240v service have larger conductors, even by a small amount, is a big plus for Debbie's intended use as spares.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: David Allred on October 15, 2019, 03:40:49 pm
David-

The point to my post was that power cables used in 240v service can have HALF of the ampacity (and thus a smaller size) of cables used for 120v service.  That the supplied cables for 240v service have larger conductors, even by a small amount, is a big plus for Debbie's intended use as spares.

Oops.  Should have replied to Debbie's size notes.  I was only providing info about the difference.  From your reply, it sounds like 15% more wire might not be as big of a deal at 240v, but at 120v, it might?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 15, 2019, 08:27:18 pm
Oops.  Should have replied to Debbie's size notes.  I was only providing info about the difference.  From your reply, it sounds like 15% more wire might not be as big of a deal at 240v, but at 120v, it might?

At 2x the voltage the current is 50% so it would be no surprise if the conductors were smaller.  Since she will be re-terminating one of the "other" cables I wanted her to make sure it had the same conductor size as her 120v cable; in her case it's actually larger. :D
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 16, 2019, 04:27:31 am
The US cable shows 1.31mm and the other 2 show 1.5mm

Is that the outside diameter of the cable or the individual conductors?   That seems like an OD measurement which may or may not correlate to the conductors in the cable due to the amount of dielectric or buffering.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on October 16, 2019, 05:31:33 am
Looking at the cables I received from Powersoft, I'd bet it's the conductor area in square millimetres.

I got 1x 1.25mm^2 and 2x 1.5mm^2 cables, all with different connectors. I cut the 1.5mm^2 ones and put 13A UK plugs on there.

Chris
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 16, 2019, 10:12:06 am
Not sure if you can see enough detail here due to the size restriction on uploading but here are the 3 cables:
1) EU
2) AUS
3) US

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 16, 2019, 10:12:46 am
2)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 16, 2019, 10:13:15 am
3)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 16, 2019, 01:05:39 pm
Your settings look fine to me.

Instead of setting the LF/HF balance every show, I'd go with a nominal setting and tweak it if you think it's necessary. Saves you dialing in -12dB, -11dB, -12dB... For the next three shows.



With regards to cables, I'd cut the cable and add the connectors you want to use. Mine turned up with a few different EU connectors (all grounded), so I grabbed a couple of the big ones and put 13A plugs on them. I've thought about getting some 16A Ceeform connectors, too, but I haven't hit the limits of a 13A plug yet.

The power situation is quite different in the USA, so I'd suggest making up a couple of different cables so you've got options for domestic and high-power use.

Chris

So... SM80 8ohms - 400w,
        TH118  4 ohms - 1700w

         T602 @ 4ohms - 2500w and @ 8ohms - 1300w.

So I could run the TH118 side of the amp at 15db and SM80 side at perhaps 7db ? Maybe a bit less as a starting point?

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on October 17, 2019, 03:20:53 am

So I could run the TH118 side of the amp at 15db and SM80 side at perhaps 7db ? Maybe a bit less as a starting point?

I'm not sure why you'd want to run up at +15dB. The amps natively have 32dB of gain, which is more than enough - you can get enough signal in there to utilise full output from pretty much any mixing desk, even the cheap Behringer notepad we all probably have in the back of the store.

Now, if it was mine I'd actually set the SM80 at 0dB, and the TH118 at -6dB. That's based on the voltage sensitivity of each cabinet, and my desire for a PA system without the "LF haystack" that some engineers seem to favour. I like my system flat, so that what goes in from the desk is what comes out as sound.

Of course, I've never set up a Danley system myself so YMMV. I'm sure other forum members will weigh in.

Chris
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 17, 2019, 11:07:42 am
I'm not sure why you'd want to run up at +15dB. The amps natively have 32dB of gain, which is more than enough - you can get enough signal in there to utilise full output from pretty much any mixing desk, even the cheap Behringer notepad we all probably have in the back of the store.

Now, if it was mine I'd actually set the SM80 at 0dB, and the TH118 at -6dB. That's based on the voltage sensitivity of each cabinet, and my desire for a PA system without the "LF haystack" that some engineers seem to favour. I like my system flat, so that what goes in from the desk is what comes out as sound.

Of course, I've never set up a Danley system myself so YMMV. I'm sure other forum members will weigh in.

Chris
I suppose because the output of the amp matches the subs well for program material I based it on that. The tops will handle less.
My powered speakers have never run on 0db so I thought I'd need to be higher than that.

I just put my amps in the racks. I have deep racks that are 8" deeper than the back of the amps so I was wondering if this would be enough to allow air flow to the amps if I kept the backs on the amps and sat them on stage on their backs. I am just working out how I want to put everything together.
I wanted to put the racks on their sides but they won't stand up that way due to the latch placement.
I could make some sort of little stand I suppose if needed but if I can keep them on their backs, I wouldn't have to and then I'll keep the cables connected and leave them in the rack for speed.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Harris on October 17, 2019, 12:40:34 pm
If you leave the back cover on, what's your plan for airflow?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 17, 2019, 12:47:10 pm
Not sure if you can see enough detail here due to the size restriction on uploading but here are the 3 cables:
1) EU
2) AUS
3) US

Mp can't see but can you show the innerconductors ?  Do the cables have a size on them like 14/3.  When you strip them it will be intuitively obvious. 
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: David Allred on October 17, 2019, 12:47:37 pm
I suppose because the output of the amp matches the subs well for program material I based it on that. The tops will handle less.



A lot of the "wattage" output will be naturally reduced by the proportional signal energy going into that side of the amp.  Let the limiters limit were they should, balance to get the sound you want., and re-check the limiters if required.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Rob Spence on October 17, 2019, 02:31:52 pm
I suppose because the output of the amp matches the subs well for program material I based it on that. The tops will handle less.
My powered speakers have never run on 0db so I thought I'd need to be higher than that.

I just put my amps in the racks. I have deep racks that are 8" deeper than the back of the amps so I was wondering if this would be enough to allow air flow to the amps if I kept the backs on the amps and sat them on stage on their backs. I am just working out how I want to put everything together.
I wanted to put the racks on their sides but they won't stand up that way due to the latch placement.
I could make some sort of little stand I suppose if needed but if I can keep them on their backs, I wouldn't have to and then I'll keep the cables connected and leave them in the rack for speed.

I have my AR2412 in a rack case and I often want to stand it on the rear so the connectors are facing up.
Since the rack cover is pretty deep, I screwed some rubber feet with standoffs into the rear rack rails leaving an inch or so clearance for airflow. Works a treat.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on October 17, 2019, 03:14:26 pm

I just put my amps in the racks. I have deep racks that are 8" deeper than the back of the amps so I was wondering if this would be enough to allow air flow to the amps if I kept the backs on the amps and sat them on stage on their backs. I am just working out how I want to put everything together.
I wanted to put the racks on their sides but they won't stand up that way due to the latch placement.
I could make some sort of little stand I suppose if needed but if I can keep them on their backs, I wouldn't have to and then I'll keep the cables connected and leave them in the rack for speed.

Take a 1 1/2" hole saw to the top and bottom of the case and hot glue some wire mesh to the inside to keep the bugs out.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on October 17, 2019, 04:30:12 pm
I suppose because the output of the amp matches the subs well for program material I based it on that. The tops will handle less.
My powered speakers have never run on 0db so I thought I'd need to be higher than that.

I just put my amps in the racks. I have deep racks that are 8" deeper than the back of the amps so I was wondering if this would be enough to allow air flow to the amps if I kept the backs on the amps and sat them on stage on their backs. I am just working out how I want to put everything together.
I wanted to put the racks on their sides but they won't stand up that way due to the latch placement.
I could make some sort of little stand I suppose if needed but if I can keep them on their backs, I wouldn't have to and then I'll keep the cables connected and leave them in the rack for speed.


IIRC, the JBL SRX line had very low input sensitivity, so it needed to be run wide open on the cabinets. How about your Yamaha DSR112s?

I'm trying to envision what you mean about the racks being on their back. ie, wires to the floor? If so, that'll block some air flow for sure. Dave's idea of cutting some holes in the rack would work.
If it was mine, I'd grab a couple of strips of 18mm plywood, paint them black, and screw them to the amp rack as skids so it'll stand on its side.

Chris
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Geert Friedhof on October 17, 2019, 07:43:52 pm
I suppose because the output of the amp matches the subs well for program material I based it on that. The tops will handle less.
My powered speakers have never run on 0db so I thought I'd need to be higher than that.

I just put my amps in the racks. I have deep racks that are 8" deeper than the back of the amps so I was wondering if this would be enough to allow air flow to the amps if I kept the backs on the amps and sat them on stage on their backs. I am just working out how I want to put everything together.
I wanted to put the racks on their sides but they won't stand up that way due to the latch placement.
I could make some sort of little stand I suppose if needed but if I can keep them on their backs, I wouldn't have to and then I'll keep the cables connected and leave them in the rack for speed.

*sigh*

Hence my recommendation for (at least) 3u racks, with patchpanels. On their backs the racks will only be more unstable, because higher, cabling and no airflow. Don't use 1u drawers. They only take up space, money and weight. Just put the powercable from the back in the empty space. Handles and latches are always in the way. You can put some small rubber feet on one side. Place the amp in the lower spot. If you don't it is nearly impossible to remove the speakons and xlr's.

Good luck.

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 17, 2019, 08:32:45 pm

IIRC, the JBL SRX line had very low input sensitivity, so it needed to be run wide open on the cabinets. How about your Yamaha DSR112s?

I'm trying to envision what you mean about the racks being on their back. ie, wires to the floor? If so, that'll block some air flow for sure. Dave's idea of cutting some holes in the rack would work.
If it was mine, I'd grab a couple of strips of 18mm plywood, paint them black, and screw them to the amp rack as skids so it'll stand on its side.

Chris

The DSR's are usually set at about 12 o'clock with the PRX718's at about 4 o'clock for small clubs

Yes- this was my concern but I thought perhaps with the extra space at the back of the amp, it  would help with air flow - I suppose it would still be too risky so I'm not going down that road.

Actually I took a couple of pieces of 2x4 and just placed them on the floor and the case stood nice and solid so maybe I will just work something like that.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 17, 2019, 08:36:08 pm
I have my AR2412 in a rack case and I often want to stand it on the rear so the connectors are facing up.
Since the rack cover is pretty deep, I screwed some rubber feet with standoffs into the rear rack rails leaving an inch or so clearance for airflow. Works a treat.

I have an AR2412 in a deep rack case also and I'd love to put it on its back.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 17, 2019, 08:36:35 pm
Take a 1 1/2" hole saw to the top and bottom of the case and hot glue some wire mesh to the inside to keep the bugs out.


Oooooh....thoughts...
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 17, 2019, 08:38:44 pm
*sigh*

Hence my recommendation for (at least) 3u racks, with patchpanels. On their backs the racks will only be more unstable, because higher, cabling and no airflow. Don't use 1u drawers. They only take up space, money and weight. Just put the powercable from the back in the empty space. Handles and latches are always in the way. You can put some small rubber feet on one side. Place the amp in the lower spot. If you don't it is nearly impossible to remove the speakons and xlr's.

Good luck.

I don't want bigger than 2u - the cables fit great in the slot of each one without drawers. I'm going to use the ply attachments to the side of the rack cases and put them on their sides.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on October 18, 2019, 03:03:47 am
The DSR's are usually set at about 12 o'clock with the PRX718's at about 4 o'clock for small clubs


12 o'clock on the Yamaha = 0dB on the Powersoft. Unless you're connecting an early-2000s MP3 player direct to the inputs, 0dB will be fine.

A couple of bits of wood for the amp racks wouldn't be a bad thing - think of them like the wooden blocks that get used for monitors to change the projection angle. Someone suggested rubber feet, which is another good idea.

Chris
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: David Allred on October 18, 2019, 09:41:45 am
I have an AR2412 in a deep rack case also and I'd love to put it on its back.

That's what the guy dancing with Lady Gaga on (then off) stage thought as well.  Ouch, but a story to tell the grandkids, maybe. :-[
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on October 18, 2019, 11:55:42 am
I suppose because the output of the amp matches the subs well for program material I based it on that. The tops will handle less.
My powered speakers have never run on 0db so I thought I'd need to be higher than that.

I just put my amps in the racks. I have deep racks that are 8" deeper than the back of the amps so I was wondering if this would be enough to allow air flow to the amps if I kept the backs on the amps and sat them on stage on their backs. I am just working out how I want to put everything together.
I wanted to put the racks on their sides but they won't stand up that way due to the latch placement.
I could make some sort of little stand I suppose if needed but if I can keep them on their backs, I wouldn't have to and then I'll keep the cables connected and leave them in the rack for speed.
Buy two Gator GR-2L racks for your amps. They have integrated molded feet on the sides so they can be stood up on their sides. Stand them up on their sides against the sides of each sub.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 18, 2019, 02:57:10 pm
Buy two Gator GR-2L racks for your amps. They have integrated molded feet on the sides so they can be stood up on their sides. Stand them up on their sides against the sides of each sub.

We went with G-Tour cases. I already owned one that I had 'lent' to a friend and just had returned. I grabbed a second one.
Having paid so much for good quality amps, we decided to house them in stronger cases.

I want some rear rack ears now....
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 18, 2019, 03:44:55 pm
12 o'clock on the Yamaha = 0dB on the Powersoft. Unless you're connecting an early-2000s MP3 player direct to the inputs, 0dB will be fine.

A couple of bits of wood for the amp racks wouldn't be a bad thing - think of them like the wooden blocks that get used for monitors to change the projection angle. Someone suggested rubber feet, which is another good idea.

Chris

Thanks Chris. I'll use your suggestion to start and tweak from there.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on October 18, 2019, 04:30:06 pm
We went with G-Tour cases. I already owned one that I had 'lent' to a friend and just had returned. I grabbed a second one.
Having paid so much for good quality amps, we decided to house them in stronger cases.

I want some rear rack ears now....

For your purposes the GR series will offer more than adequate protection for your amps, plus they are lighter than the G Tour and are already equipped with rear rack ears. They will also be easy to deploy.
I would not cut holes in the G Tour cases in order to ventilate them if you decide to use them for your amps.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 18, 2019, 05:03:49 pm
For your purposes the GR series will offer more than adequate protection for your amps, plus they are lighter than the G Tour and are already equipped with rear rack ears. They will also be easy to deploy.
I would not cut holes in the G Tour cases in order to ventilate them if you decide to use them for your amps.

Maybe but these are built like tanks and as the amps are only 16lbs, they aren't that heavy.  I don't see where the GR series comes with rack ears, how would they know which ears would be needed?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 18, 2019, 05:15:15 pm
As an update.... I sold the SRX818sp's to a forum member in CA (freight shipped),  the SRX812's to a buyer in VA, I have a pending sale for the SRX828sp to a  forum member here in the Raleigh area and I only have the SRX815's left.
I am tempted to keep them because they are the only 15's I have now.  The SM80's and the DSR112's don't have great low frequency response and are best used with subs. 
So if I had a duo, lounge act or drummer wedge application to fill,   these would come in handy. The low end thump on the SRX815's is very impressive.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on October 18, 2019, 05:20:45 pm
Maybe but these are built like thanks and as the amps are only 16lbs, they aren't that heavy.  I don't see where the GR series comes with rack ears, how would they know which ears would be needed?
I am not sure what you mean. The GR series has rack ears both front and rear and have pre-tapped holes to mount both one and two space units.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on October 18, 2019, 05:24:34 pm
As an update.... I sold the SRX818sp's to a forum member in CA (freight shipped),  the SRX812's to a buyer in VA, I have a pending sale for the SRX828sp to a  forum member here in the Raleigh area and I only have the SRX815's left.
I am tempted to keep them because they are the only 15's I have now.  The SM80's and the DSR112's don't have great low frequency response and are best used with subs. 
So if I had a duo, lounge act or drummer wedge application to fill,   these would come in handy. The low end thump on the SRX815's is very impressive.
Yes, if you want to be able to do shows without subs, you should keep your 15s. I canít speak about the DSR112 but you really do need subs with the SM80 for full range music programs.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 18, 2019, 05:24:48 pm
I am not sure what you mean. The GR series has rack ears both front and rear and have pre-tapped holes to mount both one and two space units.

Don't you mean rack rails? Rack ears are what you attach to the amp to support it.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on October 18, 2019, 05:38:42 pm
Don't you mean rack rails? Rack ears are what you attach to the amp to support it.
Ah ha, you are correct. I did mean rack rails.
Powersoft sells the rear rack ears as an accessory?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 18, 2019, 11:03:29 pm
Ah ha, you are correct. I did mean rack rails.
Powersoft sells the rear rack ears as an accessory?

I don't see them on the PS website.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Mike Pyle on October 19, 2019, 12:32:53 am
Audiopile sells generic rack ears that can probably be adapted.

https://www.audiopile.net/ERD

Note: Audiopile (Mark & Liz) and Audiopyle (me) are different companies. Thank you.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 19, 2019, 10:48:38 am
Audiopile sells generic rack ears that can probably be adapted.

https://www.audiopile.net/ERD

Note: Audiopile (Mark & Liz) and Audiopyle (me) are different companies. Thank you.

Oh thanks Mike - I was looking for generics and couldn't find what I wanted. I've used Audiopile before - nice folks.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: John Fruits on October 19, 2019, 11:06:19 am
Note: Audiopile (Mark & Liz) and Audiopyle (me) are different companies. Thank you.

And none of y'all can spell write! ;)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Mike Pyle on October 19, 2019, 11:12:54 am
And none of y'all can spell write! ;)

We CAN, but we refuse to join the rank and phile.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 21, 2019, 05:02:12 pm
I am SO EXCITED!!!..My speakers are scheduled to be delivered tomorrow.

I have taken all the info I have been given by some of the helpful folks here and I have done what I can with the amp software. THANK YOU so much for all your help...

Can I ask if the following looks right? The last time I went into the program (a few days ago) I messed up some settings so I had to go in today and re do...


I have the EQ and C/O settings provided by Danley - no issues there other than a -9.6 db at 387Hz drop that looks a bit extreme.
I have the analog input set as per Chris in reply #244

The limiter settings have been a challenge because I don't understand the differences in the types that well but this is what I have:

TH118 -
RMS Limiter......82v,  attack .01s,  release .02s, threshold -3.1db
Peak Limiter.....140v,  attack .3ms,  release 3ms, threshold -3.1db
Clip Limiter ...... not enabled
True Power .......not enabled
Current Limiter......15A,  attack .01s,  release .02s

SM80 -
RMS Limiter....56v,  attack .02s,   release .03s, threshold -3.1db
Peak Limiter ....80v,  .3ms attack,   3ms release, threshold -3.1db
Clip Limiter .....not enabled
True Power.....not enabled
Current Limiter.....15A, attack .01s, release .02s
 
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on October 21, 2019, 05:54:18 pm
I am SO EXCITED!!!..My speakers are scheduled to be delivered tomorrow.

I have taken all the info I have been given by some of the helpful folks here and I have done what I can with the amp software. THANK YOU so much for all your help...

Can I ask if the following looks right? The last time I went into the program (a few days ago) I messed up some settings so I had to go in today and re do...


I have the EQ and C/O settings provided by Danley - no issues there other than a -9.6 db at 387Hz drop that looks a bit extreme.
I have the analog input set as per Chris in reply #244

The limiter settings have been a challenge because I don't understand the differences in the types that well but this is what I have:

TH118 -
RMS Limiter......82v,  attack .01s,  release .02s, threshold -3.1db
Peak Limiter.....140v,  attack .3ms,  release 3ms, threshold -3.1db
Clip Limiter ...... not enabled
True Power .......not enabled
Current Limiter......15A,  attack .01s,  release .02s

SM80 -
RMS Limiter....56v,  attack .02s,   release .03s, threshold -3.1db
Peak Limiter ....80v,  .3ms attack,   3ms release, threshold -3.1db
Clip Limiter .....not enabled
True Power.....not enabled
Current Limiter.....15A, attack .01s, release .02s

Congratulations! Be sure to start a new thread. A " First gig with the Danley Setup " kind of post so people won't have to wade through this one. Will you have it out for next weekend?
Douglas R. Allen
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 21, 2019, 08:08:59 pm
Congratulations! Be sure to start a new thread. A " First gig with the Danley Setup " kind of post so people won't have to wade through this one. Will you have it out for next weekend?
Douglas R. Allen

Thanks Doug..... no not this weekend, we have a smallish show. I'll spend the next couple of weeks playing with everything.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on October 22, 2019, 03:50:14 am

The limiter settings have been a challenge because I don't understand the differences in the types that well but this is what I have:

TH118 -
RMS Limiter......82v,  attack .01s,  release .02s, threshold -3.1db
Peak Limiter.....140v,  attack .3ms,  release 3ms, threshold -3.1db
Clip Limiter ...... not enabled
True Power .......not enabled
Current Limiter......15A,  attack .01s,  release .02s

SM80 -
RMS Limiter....56v,  attack .02s,   release .03s, threshold -3.1db
Peak Limiter ....80v,  .3ms attack,   3ms release, threshold -3.1db
Clip Limiter .....not enabled
True Power.....not enabled
Current Limiter.....15A, attack .01s, release .02s


Debbie,

I think Ivan should take a look at these. I think you have them set conservatively - I'm certain you'll be fine to hook everything up and have a listen, but I think you might be able to get more out of the cabinets.


In order:
- RMS Limiter looks at longer-term signal levels. I'd use that to catch long-term thermal overload, so I'd expect long attack and release times of the order of a couple of seconds for the subs.
- Peak Limiter is what's built into most speaker processors, probably so you can copy/paste settings across. It's acting as a fast compressor.
- Clip Limiter is a hard clamp on the output - the output voltage will not exceed this setting.
- True Power is the Powersoft way of limiting thermal overload - the amplifier looks at the voltage and current output to calculate how much real power is being delivered to the drivers. Having gone through their papers, it's a good method and I'd recommend using it.
- Current limiter would probably be the equivalent of the Peak Limiter, but for current instead of voltage.


If it was my system, I'd use the clip and True Power limiters to catch short-term (mechanical) damage and long-term (thermal) damage. However, that's me coming at it as a speaker designer - I didn't design your system, but if I was given those components to use, that's how I'd do it.

As an end user, I'd recommend that you double-check your settings with Danley before taking the rig to war volume for any length of time. I'm pretty certain your limiters are set conservatively, which is fine, but leaves performance on the table.

Chris
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 22, 2019, 12:28:06 pm

Debbie,

I think Ivan should take a look at these. I think you have them set conservatively - I'm certain you'll be fine to hook everything up and have a listen, but I think you might be able to get more out of the cabinets.


In order:
- RMS Limiter looks at longer-term signal levels. I'd use that to catch long-term thermal overload, so I'd expect long attack and release times of the order of a couple of seconds for the subs.
- Peak Limiter is what's built into most speaker processors, probably so you can copy/paste settings across. It's acting as a fast compressor.
- Clip Limiter is a hard clamp on the output - the output voltage will not exceed this setting.
- True Power is the Powersoft way of limiting thermal overload - the amplifier looks at the voltage and current output to calculate how much real power is being delivered to the drivers. Having gone through their papers, it's a good method and I'd recommend using it.
- Current limiter would probably be the equivalent of the Peak Limiter, but for current instead of voltage.


If it was my system, I'd use the clip and True Power limiters to catch short-term (mechanical) damage and long-term (thermal) damage. However, that's me coming at it as a speaker designer - I didn't design your system, but if I was given those components to use, that's how I'd do it.

As an end user, I'd recommend that you double-check your settings with Danley before taking the rig to war volume for any length of time. I'm pretty certain your limiters are set conservatively, which is fine, but leaves performance on the table.

Chris

Thanks Chris...... it still is baffling to me so I need to get some help on that. I need to get these Limiter settings right before the first show.


Look what just arrived - Chris's new bass rig!!! (excuse the gaudy foam pieces in different colors - LOL)

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 22, 2019, 12:33:47 pm
All I have on the Danley papers regarding Limiter settings is this:

TH118 - RMS Limiter 82v,
Thermal Limiter 41v, 3s attack, 1.5x release,
XMAX 82v @ 30hz

SM80 - RMS Limiter 56v
Thermal Limiter 28v, 1s attack, 1.5x release,
Xmax 56v @ 120hz

I just don't know how to fill in the gaps or whether I should simply just NOT set limiters and be done with it.
I need some guidance with this because it is doing my head in!!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Nathan Riddle on October 22, 2019, 12:58:12 pm
All I have on the Danley papers regarding Limiter settings is this:

TH118 - RMS Limiter 82v,
Thermal Limiter 41v, 3s attack, 1.5x release,
XMAX 82v @ 30hz

SM80 - RMS Limiter 56v
Thermal Limiter 28v, 1s attack, 1.5x release,
Xmax 56v @ 120hz

I just don't know how to fill in the gaps or whether I should simply just NOT set limiters and be done with it.
I need some guidance with this because it is doing my head in!!

hpf set? yes.
xover set? yes.
Then play on.

The sm80's have sentinel protection.
the th118's can take a beating.
KISS (keep it simple saint)
have fun

I am SO EXCITED!!!..My speakers are scheduled to be delivered tomorrow.

I have taken all the info I have been given by some of the helpful folks here and I have done what I can with the amp software. THANK YOU so much for all your help...

Can I ask if the following looks right? The last time I went into the program (a few days ago) I messed up some settings so I had to go in today and re do...


I have the EQ and C/O settings provided by Danley - no issues there other than a -9.6 db at 387Hz drop that looks a bit extreme.
I have the analog input set as per Chris in reply #244

The limiter settings have been a challenge because I don't understand the differences in the types that well but this is what I have:

TH118 -
RMS Limiter......82v,  attack .01s,  release .02s, threshold -3.1db
Peak Limiter.....140v,  attack .3ms,  release 3ms, threshold -3.1db
Clip Limiter ...... not enabled
True Power .......not enabled
Current Limiter......15A,  attack .01s,  release .02s

SM80 -
RMS Limiter....56v,  attack .02s,   release .03s, threshold -3.1db
Peak Limiter ....80v,  .3ms attack,   3ms release, threshold -3.1db
Clip Limiter .....not enabled
True Power.....not enabled
Current Limiter.....15A, attack .01s, release .02s


To be clear, for your use case Debbie it is of my opinion that you do not need anything other than the RMS limiter & clip limiter.

If you really want to be safe (EDM sine waves) then add the true power limiter at 41v 3s attack 1.5x release.

I have run mine with 58v thermal limiters HARD (edm sine waves) and no issues. Ivan is a bit conservative IMO.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: David Allred on October 22, 2019, 01:04:38 pm
All I have on the Danley papers regarding Limiter settings is this:

TH118 - RMS Limiter 82v,
Thermal Limiter 41v, 3s attack, 1.5x release,
XMAX 82v @ 30hz

SM80 - RMS Limiter 56v
Thermal Limiter 28v, 1s attack, 1.5x release,
Xmax 56v @ 120hz

I just don't know how to fill in the gaps or whether I should simply just NOT set limiters and be done with it.
I need some guidance with this because it is doing my head in!!

Not a snarky question, but for future Danley speaker upgrade purchasers.

Would  Danley amps completely eliminate this confusion?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Nathan Riddle on October 22, 2019, 01:07:21 pm
Not a snarky question, but for future Danley speaker upgrade purchasers.

Would  Danley amps completely eliminate this confusion?

yes. (not a snarky reply.)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 22, 2019, 01:22:20 pm
I am SO EXCITED!!!..My speakers are scheduled to be delivered tomorrow.

I have taken all the info I have been given by some of the helpful folks here and I have done what I can with the amp software. THANK YOU so much for all your help...

Can I ask if the following looks right? The last time I went into the program (a few days ago) I messed up some settings so I had to go in today and re do...


I have the EQ and C/O settings provided by Danley - no issues there other than a -9.6 db at 387Hz drop that looks a bit extreme.
I have the analog input set as per Chris in reply #244

The limiter settings have been a challenge because I don't understand the differences in the types that well but this is what I have:

TH118 -
RMS Limiter......82v,  attack .01s,  release .02s, threshold -3.1db
Peak Limiter.....140v,  attack .3ms,  release 3ms, threshold -3.1db
Clip Limiter ...... not enabled
True Power .......not enabled
Current Limiter......15A,  attack .01s,  release .02s

SM80 -
RMS Limiter....56v,  attack .02s,   release .03s, threshold -3.1db
Peak Limiter ....80v,  .3ms attack,   3ms release, threshold -3.1db
Clip Limiter .....not enabled
True Power.....not enabled
Current Limiter.....15A, attack .01s, release .02s
The peak limiter on Powersoft amps is a "true peak" number.  That means that it is the PEAK of the voltage, not the RMS of the "maximum"

The term "peak" often gets confused.

Let's take the TH118.  The "RMS" or continuous power is rated at 82V.  So 6dB higher (the peaks in the power test waveform) would be 164V.  But that is the RMS of the "maximum" (Peak) value.  To get the peak voltage (as used by Powersoft and some others) you multiply that by 1.414 and you get 232V.

However, if you want to be a little conservative, set it for the 162V.  That is what I do, just to be safe.  But I wanted to explain the meaning of "peak" as far as Powersoft is concerned.

I set the "RMS" limiter 1x the time of the highpass filter.  Some will argue that it should be 2x, but I am more for protection, than sonic purity, when you start to get towards the limit of the loudspeaker.  1x is a bit more conservative.  So for a HP of 25Hz it would be 40ms or 0.04seconds  A release of 15x is a good starting point, so 0.6seconds

I ALWAYS engage any clip limiter.  That is for a sonic quality issue more than anything, to keep the amp from clipping (or clipping very much).

The true power is what I would call the Thermal limiter.  Often this is the MOST IMPORTANT limiter.  For the TH118, I suggest around 1/4 power and a 3 second attack time, with a 1.5 to 2x release time.  Remember that this is a WATTAGE limiter, so if you hook up 2 cabinets to the same channel, that limiter will be double that of a single cabinet.  The VOLTAGE limiters will stay the same.

I would set the current limiters based on the true power calculations.  For the TH118 that would be the square root of P/R with the power being at 1/4 power.  So you end up with 7.3A with a 3 second attack time.

I am not sure if the version of software you have, has a excursion limiter.  If so, I would HIGHLY suggest using it.  Set it for the RMS power level and for the HP freq of the xover.

For the SM80, the same thing applies, but some of the numbers will be different.

Set the RMS attack time around 8ms (0.08seconds)

Set the peak for 112V (again being 3dB conservative)

The true power is still set around 1/4 the "RMS" power, but with an attack time of around 1 second.  Release 1.5-2 seconds.

Remember that the SM80 has a two stage limiter built in for the HF driver, the Sentinel.

I know all of this sound confusing, but when set properly, you should be able to pound the crap out of the speakers and be OK.  Don't be afraid to hit the limiters pretty hard (if you have all of them set properly).

As a joke (but not really kidding that much), as long as the limiter lights are off more than they are on, you should be fine.  Don't worry about flashing them, they are just doing their job. 

Now if you hear the system "pumping", that is a different story, soncially.  You should still be fine powerwise, but it may not sound like you want it to.

DO NOT be scared.  Go out and have some fun.  But be forwarded-you might get addicted.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 22, 2019, 01:26:06 pm
Not a snarky question, but for future Danley speaker upgrade purchasers.

Would  Danley amps completely eliminate this confusion?
When you use the Danley amps, and recall the proper preset, all the limiters are all set, along with eq and suggested HP and LP filters.

Only the limiters are locked out, so you adjust the xover filters as needed.

You can't store any adjust preset (in the particular preset), but you can store your preset in a blank position if you want to.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Carneval on October 22, 2019, 01:30:47 pm
I am SO EXCITED!!!..My speakers are scheduled to be delivered tomorrow.

I have taken all the info I have been given by some of the helpful folks here and I have done what I can with the amp software. THANK YOU so much for all your help...

Can I ask if the following looks right? The last time I went into the program (a few days ago) I messed up some settings so I had to go in today and re do...


I have the EQ and C/O settings provided by Danley - no issues there other than a -9.6 db at 387Hz drop that looks a bit extreme.
I have the analog input set as per Chris in reply #244

The limiter settings have been a challenge because I don't understand the differences in the types that well but this is what I have:

TH118 -
RMS Limiter......82v,  attack .01s,  release .02s, threshold -3.1db
Peak Limiter.....140v,  attack .3ms,  release 3ms, threshold -3.1db
Clip Limiter ...... not enabled
True Power .......not enabled
Current Limiter......15A,  attack .01s,  release .02s

SM80 -
RMS Limiter....56v,  attack .02s,   release .03s, threshold -3.1db
Peak Limiter ....80v,  .3ms attack,   3ms release, threshold -3.1db
Clip Limiter .....not enabled
True Power.....not enabled
Current Limiter.....15A, attack .01s, release .02s

Congrats on the upgrade and welcome to the dark side! A good friend of mine just got a Danley system and I'm meeting him at the ballroom in the North Raleigh Marriott (across from Crabtree mall) on Sunday 8/3 to help him with dialing in some presets. We're gonna set up my SMAART rig and get everything aligned and EQ'd properly. You're welcome to bring your system out as well if you want any help with getting it dialed in. I'm not sure exactly what time he has the room reserved but I would guess sometime in the late morning through the afternoon.  I'll also have some Go2's, FLX12, THMini, and Mini15 if you wanted to hear any of them.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 22, 2019, 01:41:59 pm
Congrats on the upgrade and welcome to the dark side! A good friend of mine just got a Danley system and I'm meeting him at the ballroom in the North Raleigh Marriott (across from Crabtree mall) on Sunday 8/3 to help him with dialing in some presets. We're gonna set up my SMAART rig and get everything aligned and EQ'd properly. You're welcome to bring your system out as well if you want any help with getting it dialed in. I'm not sure exactly what time he has the room reserved but I would guess sometime in the late morning through the afternoon.  I'll also have some Go2's, FLX12, THMini, and Mini15 if you wanted to hear any of them.

Oooooh...... that would be great. Your date of 8/3 isn't correct I assume and I hope it isn't 11/3 because I will be in CA.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 22, 2019, 01:43:27 pm
Not a snarky question, but for future Danley speaker upgrade purchasers.

Would  Danley amps completely eliminate this confusion?

I was going to get the DNA10 but then decided I wanted to have 2 separate amps for various reasons (deployment, redundancy etc) and couldn't afford 2 of the DNA amps.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 22, 2019, 01:47:30 pm
hpf set? yes.
xover set? yes.
Then play on.

The sm80's have sentinel protection.
the th118's can take a beating.
KISS (keep it simple saint)
have fun


To be clear, for your use case Debbie it is of my opinion that you do not need anything other than the RMS limiter & clip limiter.

If you really want to be safe (EDM sine waves) then add the true power limiter at 41v 3s attack 1.5x release.

I have run mine with 58v thermal limiters HARD (edm sine waves) and no issues. Ivan is a bit conservative IMO.

This makes me feel better Nathan... I am always so very careful and conservative when I run my equipment - I never run anything hard so I doubt I will get any problems by not enabling some of the Limiter features.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Carneval on October 22, 2019, 02:27:06 pm
Oooooh...... that would be great. Your date of 8/3 isn't correct I assume and I hope it isn't 11/3 because I will be in CA.

You're right, I was way off on the date. It's actually 11/3. I'm a diehard Ravens fan, and we play the Patriots at 8pm that day so I think that's where the 8 came from lol.

That's too bad you can't make it. If you have any issues getting your system up and running let me know and we can figure out another time/place.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Carneval on October 22, 2019, 02:31:18 pm
I know all of this sound confusing, but when set properly, you should be able to pound the crap out of the speakers and be OK.  Don't be afraid to hit the limiters pretty hard (if you have all of them set properly).

As a joke (but not really kidding that much), as long as the limiter lights are off more than they are on, you should be fine.  Don't worry about flashing them, they are just doing their job. 

Now if you hear the system "pumping", that is a different story, soncially.  You should still be fine powerwise, but it may not sound like you want it to.

DO NOT be scared.  Go out and have some fun.  But be forwarded-you might get addicted.

This! I went many years setting and running things very conservatively because I was afraid to blow up an expensive speaker. Recently I had a customer blow up a subwoofer and I was really surprised to learn that the replacement driver was under $300. I guess that's a benefit of Danley using off-the-shelf drivers.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 22, 2019, 02:34:59 pm
Ivan is a bit conservative IMO.
I would much rather have the loudspeaker continue working thoughout the night and the next day, than to have the music stop and get a phone call the next day.

Keeping it making music is more important than a couple of extra dB that only a couple of people will notice.

EVERYBODY will notice if the loudspeaker dies.  It kinda kills the party pretty quick ya know.

Yes, I will agree that some of my settings are conservative.  I don't like living on the edge.

It also depends on how the system is operated, is it being monitored? or just "left up to the DJ" to have at it as he pleases?  It makes a difference.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 22, 2019, 02:37:09 pm
You're right, I was way off on the date. It's actually 11/3. I'm a diehard Ravens fan, and we play the Patriots at 8pm that day so I think that's where the 8 came from lol.

That's too bad you can't make it. If you have any issues getting your system up and running let me know and we can figure out another time/place.

Darn it - just my luck. I would love to get together another time though.....
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 22, 2019, 02:39:22 pm
The peak limiter on Powersoft amps is a "true peak" number.  That means that it is the PEAK of the voltage, not the RMS of the "maximum"

The term "peak" often gets confused.

Let's take the TH118.  The "RMS" or continuous power is rated at 82V.  So 6dB higher (the peaks in the power test waveform) would be 164V.  But that is the RMS of the "maximum" (Peak) value.  To get the peak voltage (as used by Powersoft and some others) you multiply that by 1.414 and you get 232V.

However, if you want to be a little conservative, set it for the 162V.  That is what I do, just to be safe.  But I wanted to explain the meaning of "peak" as far as Powersoft is concerned.

I set the "RMS" limiter 1x the time of the highpass filter.  Some will argue that it should be 2x, but I am more for protection, than sonic purity, when you start to get towards the limit of the loudspeaker.  1x is a bit more conservative.  So for a HP of 25Hz it would be 40ms or 0.04seconds  A release of 15x is a good starting point, so 0.6seconds

I ALWAYS engage any clip limiter.  That is for a sonic quality issue more than anything, to keep the amp from clipping (or clipping very much).

The true power is what I would call the Thermal limiter.  Often this is the MOST IMPORTANT limiter.  For the TH118, I suggest around 1/4 power and a 3 second attack time, with a 1.5 to 2x release time.  Remember that this is a WATTAGE limiter, so if you hook up 2 cabinets to the same channel, that limiter will be double that of a single cabinet.  The VOLTAGE limiters will stay the same.

I would set the current limiters based on the true power calculations.  For the TH118 that would be the square root of P/R with the power being at 1/4 power.  So you end up with 7.3A with a 3 second attack time.

I am not sure if the version of software you have, has a excursion limiter.  If so, I would HIGHLY suggest using it.  Set it for the RMS power level and for the HP freq of the xover.

For the SM80, the same thing applies, but some of the numbers will be different.

Set the RMS attack time around 8ms (0.08seconds)

Set the peak for 112V (again being 3dB conservative)

The true power is still set around 1/4 the "RMS" power, but with an attack time of around 1 second.  Release 1.5-2 seconds.

Remember that the SM80 has a two stage limiter built in for the HF driver, the Sentinel.

I know all of this sound confusing, but when set properly, you should be able to pound the crap out of the speakers and be OK.  Don't be afraid to hit the limiters pretty hard (if you have all of them set properly).

As a joke (but not really kidding that much), as long as the limiter lights are off more than they are on, you should be fine.  Don't worry about flashing them, they are just doing their job. 

Now if you hear the system "pumping", that is a different story, soncially.  You should still be fine powerwise, but it may not sound like you want it to.

DO NOT be scared.  Go out and have some fun.  But be forwarded-you might get addicted.

Thanks Ivan.

I am unable to set Peak to 162v - it is 'over the amplifier  threshold' and will only allow up to 140v.

I would set Clipping- but again I am unsure what to punch in there.

I messing with it right now and I am changing some values ....
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Nathan Riddle on October 22, 2019, 02:49:43 pm
This makes me feel better Nathan... I am always so very careful and conservative when I run my equipment - I never run anything hard so I doubt I will get any problems by not enabling some of the Limiter features.

Seriously, though. Go out and have fun. Forget trying to set perfect limiters and all that other stuff. Play music and enjoy it :)

When I first joined this forum I was so nervous about setting my DSP (hpf, xover, limiter, compression, eq, delay, etc) 'correctly' to the point that it can ruin just enjoying yourself and the music.

While everything I've learned from PSW has been invaluable and extremely helpful for designing and installing passive/active it can needlessly complicate things that are easy to get 90% of the way there (hpf, xover, basic EQ) [provided good source material, speakers, and amps]. That last 5% takes SMAART and a day. That very last 5% is a series of compromises and advanced tuning techniques that I don't think many can manage.

From my perspective, the good-natured intent of the forum is precluding you from having fun :) Go out and throw some sound and shake the neighbors. You're not going to hurt anything.

If I were you here's what I'd do.
1) obtain favorite FLAC/WAV music & player
2) SQ6 > amps > speakers
3) set hpf (30hz, 24BW)
4) set xover (whatever DSL recommends [90/120])
5) turn on clip limiter
6) RMS limiter 82v
7) turn it up and enjoy musics
8) join DSLUG on FB and post pretty pics for us to see :)

Yeah, no EQ to start. Try the DSL EQ in/out pick whichever you prefer.
When I worked on a friend's SM80/TH115 system with QSC PLD 4.5's I had much less EQ on the SM80's than the DSL presets suggest.
IIRC there's a peak at 3k or 4k thats annoying, beyond that they're pretty good out of the box.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Nathan Riddle on October 22, 2019, 02:54:54 pm
I would much rather have the loudspeaker continue working thoughout the night and the next day, than to have the music stop and get a phone call the next day.

Keeping it making music is more important than a couple of extra dB that only a couple of people will notice.

EVERYBODY will notice if the loudspeaker dies.  It kinda kills the party pretty quick ya know.

Yes, I will agree that some of my settings are conservative.  I don't like living on the edge.

It also depends on how the system is operated, is it being monitored? or just "left up to the DJ" to have at it as he pleases?  It makes a difference.

I completely agree and do the same when applying what you taught me when commissioning systems that I am unsure who will use it.

In Debbie's case, I'm doubtful she's going to push her system (especially the SM80's) to where conservative limiters are needed. Especially for the first time setup.

All this techno talk is boring. Go listen to your new speakers Debbie!! :)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 22, 2019, 03:09:59 pm
Seriously, though. Go out and have fun. Forget trying to set perfect limiters and all that other stuff. Play music and enjoy it :)

When I first joined this forum I was so nervous about setting my DSP (hpf, xover, limiter, compression, eq, delay, etc) 'correctly' to the point that it can ruin just enjoying yourself and the music.

While everything I've learned from PSW has been invaluable and extremely helpful for designing and installing passive/active it can needlessly complicate things that are easy to get 90% of the way there (hpf, xover, basic EQ) [provided good source material, speakers, and amps]. That last 5% takes SMAART and a day. That very last 5% is a series of compromises and advanced tuning techniques that I don't think many can manage.

From my perspective, the good-natured intent of the forum is precluding you from having fun :) Go out and throw some sound and shake the neighbors. You're not going to hurt anything.

If I were you here's what I'd do.
1) obtain favorite FLAC/WAV music & player
2) SQ6 > amps > speakers
3) set hpf (30hz, 24BW)
4) set xover (whatever DSL recommends [90/120])
5) turn on clip limiter
6) RMS limiter 82v
7) turn it up and enjoy musics
8) join DSLUG on FB and post pretty pics for us to see :)

Yeah, no EQ to start. Try the DSL EQ in/out pick whichever you prefer.
When I worked on a friend's SM80/TH115 system with QSC PLD 4.5's I had much less EQ on the SM80's than the DSL presets suggest.
IIRC there's a peak at 3k or 4k thats annoying, beyond that they're pretty good out of the box.


Just did a couple of screenshots.....TH118 SM80 limiter settings.
I don't have Clip set - what should I use there?
Other than that if these look OK then I'll keep them. If not, unless anyone has 'better' numbers, then I'm going to disable all limiter settings and use the amps relying on my judgement until I can get better values. Or just use clip values ...

Yeah I just want to try my new speakers out but feel I don't have all the info I need and yes- it is starting to become frustrating...
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 22, 2019, 03:29:18 pm
Debbie, Debbie, Debbie.  You're overthinking this for first time use.  Set it up in the garage and torture the rig with some of your raw 'virtual soundcheck' files.  You'll soon find out that at most any tolerable listening level you're unlikely be into any of the limiters.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Nathan Riddle on October 22, 2019, 03:37:04 pm
^^ What Tim said.

Whatever settings you have RIGHT now is fine.

Play music, be happy :)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ed Hall on October 22, 2019, 03:42:51 pm
Yeah I just want to try my new speakers out but feel I don't have all the info I need and yes- it is starting to become frustrating...

Debbie,
Take a deep breath and have some fun with it. Like Tim said you'll likely feel it's loud enough long before you get to limiting.  If you feel too frustrated, just get up and walk away from it for a few minutes, send me a message and I'll gladly trade some JBL 812 and 828 for it!
 ;D
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 22, 2019, 04:07:46 pm
Thanks Ivan.

I am unable to set Peak to 162v - it is 'over the amplifier  threshold' and will only allow up to 140v.

I would set Clipping- but again I am unsure what to punch in there.

I messing with it right now and I am changing some values ....
Then I would go with 140V.  That is just the limit of the amplifier.

Think of it this way-if you set it to 140V "peak", then the actual voltage (as read on an RMS meter) will be 99V.  That is only 1.6dB over the 82V continuous.

So basically you will have a hard time damaging the sub, because you will "run out of amplifier", before you run out of speaker.

Go have some FUN listening, and don't worry about the limiters, unless you get into stupid loud territory.  That is when the limiters will be an issue anyway.

Let's just say that with a single TH118 per SM80, you will run out of sub before you run out of top.  And the amp is the limiting factor there is the amp.  So just don't let the amp limit itself to much and don't worry about it.

Personally I feel you are worrying WAY to much about this.  Most people don't even run limiters (at least properly set anyway).

Music is about fun, go have some.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 22, 2019, 04:31:59 pm
I'm happy now - I just listened to the rig for the first time.......oh yes, oh yes, oh yes. That was using an iPod and it sounded amazing. I have some recordings on my thumb drives so I'll be mixing the rest of the evening....
BTW - I removed ALL limiters and the EQ I had set for the tops. Hard to believe it could sound that much better to be honest but now I'm up and running I can tweak as I go to improve on what I have.
I appreciate all the help - I really do. I'm just so crazy about getting the numbers right and yes - I do overthink EVERYTHING.. just ask Chris.

BTW.... at one point whilst playing the music, I hit the gain button on the amp to bring up one side and didn't realize just how quickly it scrolled. Oh boy - good job the mixer level was down a touch and I was bending down below the speaker level. That blew the cobwebs away for sure!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Nathan Riddle on October 22, 2019, 04:43:02 pm
I'm happy now - I just listened to the rig for the first time.......oh yes, oh yes, oh yes. That was using an iPod and it sounded amazing. I have some recordings on my thumb drives so I'll be mixing the rest of the evening....
BTW - I removed ALL limiters and the EQ I had set for the tops. Hard to believe it could sound that much better to be honest but now I'm up and running I can tweak as I go to improve on what I have.
I appreciate all the help - I really do. I'm just so crazy about getting the numbers right and yes - I do overthink EVERYTHING.. just ask Chris.

BTW.... at one point whilst playing the music, I hit the gain button on the amp to bring up one side and didn't realize just how quickly it scrolled. Oh boy - good job the mixer level was down a touch and I was bending down below the speaker level. That blew the cobwebs away for sure!

This is what us DSL users love to hear :)

Seriously, pics or it didn't happen ;)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Uwe Riemer2 on October 22, 2019, 04:52:19 pm

Just did a couple of screenshots.....TH118 SM80 limiter settings.
I don't have Clip set - what should I use there?
Other than that if these look OK then I'll keep them. If not, unless anyone has 'better' numbers, then I'm going to disable all limiter settings and use the amps relying on my judgement until I can get better values. Or just use clip values ...

Yeah I just want to try my new speakers out but feel I don't have all the info I need and yes- it is starting to become frustrating...

The way you set the limiters, the attack/release time for the SM80 is longer than for the TH118, but should be shorter actually.
this comes from a small conversion mistake: 8ms are 0.008 seconds, not 0.08 seconds
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 22, 2019, 05:21:22 pm
This is what us DSL users love to hear :)

Seriously, pics or it didn't happen ;)

Well, I did post the pic when they first arrived and here is another set up. I need to get more though ...
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Nathan Riddle on October 22, 2019, 05:24:11 pm
Well, I did post the pic when they first arrived and here is another set up. I need to get more though ...

Okay now boost 30hz about 9dB on the mixer and play some smooth jazz with a good bass line :D
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 22, 2019, 06:08:06 pm
Well, I did post the pic when they first arrived and here is another set up. I need to get more though ...

Your garage is cleaner than my living room, lol.

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dennis Wiggins on October 22, 2019, 08:28:23 pm
Well, I did post the pic when they first arrived and here is another set up. I need to get more though ...
When listening and "dialing in" params, I suggest using just one "stack" at a time. It is way easier to pick out what is going on when just one cabinet is putting out the frequencies in question.

Use the one in the middle, as it is less affected by corner wall reflections.

You can trust that the other side will sound the same.  ;)

Have fun!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 22, 2019, 08:54:44 pm
When listening and "dialing in" params, I suggest using just one "stack" at a time. It is way easier to pick out what is going on when just one cabinet is putting out the frequencies in question.

Use the one in the middle, as it is less affected by corner wall reflections.

You can trust that the other side will sound the same.  ;)

Have fun!

Good advice.....I didn't really have the time to place the speakers as I would have liked so I used a mono feed and listened to each side. Then I used stereo just for fun. I didn't use the session to dial in anything, just to listen .....
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Caleb Dueck on October 22, 2019, 09:05:16 pm
Good advice.....I didn't really have the time to place the speakers as I would have liked so I used a mono feed and listened to each side. Then I used stereo just for fun. I didn't use the session to dial in anything, just to listen .....

Looks great!  Try to borrow some more subs, three TH118XL's per SM80 and let the system really run. 
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Craig Leerman on October 23, 2019, 12:18:10 am
congrats on the upgrade!


Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 23, 2019, 11:09:22 pm
Thanks for all the Congrats!!..... I have been using the recording from this past saturday to mix the band through the new system and noticeably I am getting an amazing thumping kick sound and warm rich bass - no changes to usual EQ, dynamics etc on the mixer. Also great separation between vocals and guitar. I don't think I have ever heard my drum overhead mic sound so good either. 
I am SO looking forward to using this rig in anger!!!

Also, I did in fact change my mind on the rack case style.  As I said before the handles and latches protrude too far on the gator G-Tour - REALLY nice strong cases but no way to stand them up on their sides - even if only when storing.  Upsetting because I wanted the strength and protection of the cases but didn't want to have to mess with home made stands or 2x4's at shows. Not enough room to add feet and make stable....
So instead I got a couple of matching light-weight ABS style (Chinese made) cases same brand as some I already own that have served me well ( my QU Pac, Chris's Line 6 G90 and my radial DI are in the same case - just different sizes). This design does have feet on the side and offers adequate protection.
I chose 3u and I placed the amps in the middle u so the racks don't want to topple over. They came today.
I also got some vented panels that finish the look. I'm getting a couple of large laptop sleeves and placing them underneath the amps to store Speakon cables and power cords.  Just waiting for my rear rack ears and job done!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on October 24, 2019, 12:36:48 pm
Hey Debbie,
Well, you've joined the rest of us kool-ade drinkers.  :o  No going back now. It's amazing how easy it is to mix when you can hear everything.
Have fun!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Tom Roche on October 24, 2019, 03:34:16 pm
I am SO looking forward to using this rig in anger!!!

Ha ha!  I love it.  I'm looking foward to hearing your thoughts after running the system in the wild.  The pull to call Mike Pyle and get a quote is quite strong after following this thread.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on October 24, 2019, 05:23:26 pm
Well, I did post the pic when they first arrived and here is another set up. I need to get more though ...
Have you decided how you are going to get the SM80s up in the air?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 24, 2019, 05:29:03 pm
Have you decided how you are going to get the SM80s up in the air?

The same way I have always done it. Lift onto tripod/sub pole and raise.,,, why-  is something different about the SM80's?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on October 24, 2019, 05:41:16 pm
I'm happy now - I just listened to the rig for the first time.......oh yes, oh yes, oh yes. That was using an iPod and it sounded amazing. I have some recordings on my thumb drives so I'll be mixing the rest of the evening....
BTW - I removed ALL limiters and the EQ I had set for the tops. Hard to believe it could sound that much better to be honest but now I'm up and running I can tweak as I go to improve on what I have.
I appreciate all the help - I really do. I'm just so crazy about getting the numbers right and yes - I do overthink EVERYTHING.. just ask Chris.

BTW.... at one point whilst playing the music, I hit the gain button on the amp to bring up one side and didn't realize just how quickly it scrolled. Oh boy - good job the mixer level was down a touch and I was bending down below the speaker level. That blew the cobwebs away for sure!
When I first got my SM80s I set them up side by side with my K-Array KR200s which are a column array.  I invited a friend over, who is another live sound engineer, to listen. We both agreed that they sounded different but couldnít say that one sounded better than the other.
When I used the SM80s for the first time at a large outdoor event I noticed that the level where the K-Arrays had sounded a bit pushed, the Danleys were cruising.
I imagine the Danleys are a huge improvement over the JBLs. Just wait until you get them outdoors and turn them up.

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on October 24, 2019, 05:48:05 pm
The same way I have always done it. Lift onto tripod/sub pole and raise.,,, why-  is something different about the SM80's?
I was asking if you were planing on using tripods or sub poles. Is there a deployment where you would ever use tripods instead of the sub poles?
Are you able to get them onto your sub poles while standing at ground level or do you need to use a step or ladder?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 24, 2019, 06:24:44 pm
I was asking if you were planing on using tripods or sub poles. Is there a deployment where you would ever use tripods instead of the sub poles?
Are you able to get them onto your sub poles while standing at ground level or do you need to use a step or ladder?

The subs have pole mounts on the top and both sides so if I had to, I could lay on its side and the mount that way.  I do keep a short step ladder in the van so theres that too. I have gas assist poles and tripods so its an easy raise either way.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: John L Nobile on October 24, 2019, 09:12:53 pm
Congrats on the new speakers Debbie. If you like them now, wait till you mix a band on them. And especially when you get in a really bad sounding room you've worked in before. The room won't sound any better but you'll be able to hear things more clearly.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 27, 2019, 09:56:15 pm
Congrats on the new speakers Debbie. If you like them now, wait till you mix a band on them. And especially when you get in a really bad sounding room you've worked in before. The room won't sound any better but you'll be able to hear things more clearly.

Thanks John...

I sold the last of my SRX system today - the SRX815p's and the SRX828sp. So my SRX818sp's went to California, my SRX812p's went to Virginia and my pieces today went to South Carolina - nothing stayed in NC. .....
It was a sad day - especially as I waved the last of my SRX rig goodbye.... for about 2 minutes till I turned around and said, "Well Danley - how yoo doin'?"
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 28, 2019, 08:12:53 am

It was a sad day - especially as I waved the last of my SRX rig goodbye.... for about 2 minutes till I turned around and said, "Well Danley - how yoo doin'?"
I guess you will find out on your next gig-------------------
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Rory Buszka on October 28, 2019, 10:36:01 am
I was asking if you were planing on using tripods or sub poles. Is there a deployment where you would ever use tripods instead of the sub poles?
Are you able to get them onto your sub poles while standing at ground level or do you need to use a step or ladder?

IMO it's always better to use tripods instead of sub poles because you can move everything around independently. You can cluster the subs together on one side, put them on the floor in the center below a raised stage lip, or even try something crazy like corner-loading them. So at least bring the tripods with you for your setup.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 28, 2019, 10:53:02 am
IMO it's always better to use tripods instead of sub poles because you can move everything around independently. You can cluster the subs together on one side, put them on the floor in the center below a raised stage lip, or even try something crazy like corner-loading them. So at least bring the tripods with you for your setup.

I always take both for a show unless I know the set up.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Geert Friedhof on October 28, 2019, 12:02:42 pm
I always either stack, fly or polemount for foh. I do sometimes use tripods for monitors for the wannabe deadmaus of the day, when the budget is not enough for subs, or i just don't care...
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on October 28, 2019, 04:40:19 pm
I always take both for a show unless I know the set up.

If you always use the sub poles you will be able to use the same short speaker cables and preset the delay in your amp for the tops. If you start moving things around, such as center cluster subs, you will need longer speaker cables and you will need to adjust the delay for each different deployment. 
Much easier set up if the subs and tops are in-line  with each other. Plug and play.
The foot print of the sub will most likely be smaller than a spread tripod, and it is less likely to be knocked over.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 28, 2019, 04:54:52 pm
If you always use the sub poles you will be able to use the same short speaker cables and preset the delay in your amp for the tops. If you start moving things around, such as center cluster subs, you will need longer speaker cables and you will need to adjust the delay for each different deployment. 
Much easier set up if the subs and tops are in-line  with each other. Plug and play.
The foot print of the sub will most likely be smaller than a spread tripod, and it is less likely to be knocked over.

Fortunately I have cable length options and the amps have presets that I can recall according to deployment specifics.
When I use tripods , I am careful to keep the tripod pole in line with the sub pole mount to avoid delay selection.
The TH118 has 3 pole mount locations so I can stand it up using the top mount or lay it down on either side using one of the side pole mounts.
Then there is the tripod option on top of that.
So my decision will be based on basically the same criteria I use now: -
Will I have a stage edge or step ladder to allow for easy mounting on poles with subs upright?...
If not, should I place sub on its side to allow for easier height to mount tops?
OR do I have enough space to place tripods?
Will tripods cause delay preset selection to become necessary? 
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on October 28, 2019, 05:19:49 pm
Fortunately I have cable length options and the amps have presets that I can recall according to deployment specifics.
When I use tripods , I am careful to keep the tripod pole in line with the sub pole mount to avoid delay selection.
The TH118 has 3 pole mount locations so I can stand it up using the top mount or lay it down on either side using one of the side pole mounts.
Then there is the tripod option on top of that.
So my decision will be based on basically the same criteria I use now: -
Will I have a stage edge or step ladder to allow for easy mounting on poles with subs upright?...
If not, should I place sub on its side to allow for easier height to mount tops?
OR do I have enough space to place tripods?
Will tripods cause delay preset selection to become necessary?
Iím not sure how you would be able to keep the sub and top cabinets aligned vertically when using tripods.
The FAQ page on the Danley website explains how to align tops with a tapped horn sub by delaying the tops. I imagine the delay would be different when using tripods and clustered subs compared with using sub poles. The delay value would also be different depending on how far the subs are from the tops.


Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Corey Scogin on October 28, 2019, 05:33:47 pm
Iím not sure how you would be able to keep the sub and top cabinets aligned vertically when using tripods.
The FAQ page on the Danley website explains how to align tops with a tapped horn sub by delaying the tops. I imagine the delay would be different when using tripods and clustered subs compared with using sub poles. The delay value would also be different depending on how far the subs are from the tops.

The part you're looking to align is the phase response between the top and sub -- around 120Hz in this case. That's a wavelength of around 9ft. A few inches one way or another shouldn't matter enough to become problematic.

Edit: I didn't notice that you mentioned clustered subs. I thought you just meant "anything but sub poles'.
If the subs and tops are in a straight line, the listener spaced equally between the subs and the tops gets the best phase response unless adjustments are made to the timing.
Of course, the phase response of the subs may be off there depending on room reflections!  Too bad physics doesn't make things easy.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on October 28, 2019, 09:24:19 pm
Do we have an approximate delay for when running SM80s on sub poles over Th118s?
I had a hard time getting a clean sub trace in SMAART because of where I can test easily.
Very reflective 'alley'.  And a ton of freeway noise.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on October 28, 2019, 09:29:18 pm
BTW Mike Pyle's shop is in Windsor, which has been evacuated.
Fingers crossed for him and everyone else in harm's way.
Crazy dry winds yesterday gusting to 90 MPH!
The power at my shop just came back on after two days.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Jonathan Betts on October 28, 2019, 10:33:19 pm
Do we have an approximate delay for when running SM80s on sub poles over Th118s?
I had a hard time getting a clean sub trace in SMAART because of where I can test easily.
Very reflective 'alley'.  And a ton of freeway noise.

2.8ms delay on the SM80
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 28, 2019, 10:44:55 pm
BTW Mike Pyle's shop is in Windsor, which has been evacuated.
Fingers crossed for him and everyone else in harm's way.
Crazy dry winds yesterday gusting to 90 MPH!
The power at my shop just came back on after two days.

Oh no .... sorry to hear that. Lets hope they contain it soon and that Mike returns with no damage.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Frank Koenig on October 28, 2019, 11:02:07 pm
I had a hard time getting a clean sub trace in SMAART because of where I can test easily.
Very reflective 'alley'.  And a ton of freeway noise.

If you want to verify the published reference delay in your setup you can get a pretty good estimate using near field measurements. This should work well as neither the SM80 nor the TH118 has any ports -- all the sound comes out of one hole. Near field measurements are pretty immune to variations in the measurement environment and, in my experience, give quite accurate results for phase -- not so much for magnitude. But most folks end up setting relative sub/top gain by ear anyway. So long as you have a good idea what the actual acoustic crossover frequency is for your relative gain settings it should work well. As was pointed out above, a ms this way or that won't matter much anyway.

And all you folks up in the Sonoma area, I'm following closely and thinking of you. I don't think there's much I can do but if there's anything let me know.

--Frank

PS: Here's the good map for the fire:

https://sonomacounty.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=2cb4401e1fc0494dbf9d9e22aa794617 (https://sonomacounty.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=2cb4401e1fc0494dbf9d9e22aa794617)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 29, 2019, 12:06:28 am
If you want to verify the published reference delay in your setup you can get a pretty good estimate using near field measurements. This should work well as neither the SM80 nor the TH118 has any ports -- all the sound comes out of one hole. Near field measurements are pretty immune to variations in the measurement environment and, in my experience, give quite accurate results for phase -- not so much for magnitude. But most folks end up setting relative sub/top gain by ear anyway. So long as you have a good idea what the actual acoustic crossover frequency is for your relative gain settings it should work well. As was pointed out above, a ms this way or that won't matter much anyway.

And all you folks up in the Sonoma area, I'm following closely and thinking of you. I don't think there's much I can do but if there's anything let me know.

--Frank

PS: Here's the good map for the fire:

https://sonomacounty.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=2cb4401e1fc0494dbf9d9e22aa794617 (https://sonomacounty.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=2cb4401e1fc0494dbf9d9e22aa794617)

So Debbie, Frank is spot on,  Measure, adjust, measure again.  You seem to be in a bit of shock or overwhelmed by everything in a desire to get it perfect.   You other system wasn't perfect either and the setting were hidden deep from you.  Nothing has really changed other than they are more expensive.  They will sound great with your presets.  That is a starting place and you can move forward from there.  It is doubtful with your skillful ear you will damage anything even without limiters. 

My advice, get a few gigs under your belt and enjoy them.  Get to know them, how little EQ is required to get them to sound good.  Most important have fun.

After that, get some measurement software (SMAART is the gold standard of course by Audiotools on an iPad with the measurement mic is great and REW is free and will give you phase and magnitude info).  Post the traces and everyone will help you learn about system optimization.  It's just another step in your journey.  No need to sweat it.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 29, 2019, 10:12:15 am
So Debbie, Frank is spot on,  Measure, adjust, measure again.  You seem to be in a bit of shock or overwhelmed by everything in a desire to get it perfect.   You other system wasn't perfect either and the setting were hidden deep from you.  Nothing has really changed other than they are more expensive.  They will sound great with your presets.  That is a starting place and you can move forward from there.  It is doubtful with your skillful ear you will damage anything even without limiters. 

My advice, get a few gigs under your belt and enjoy them.  Get to know them, how little EQ is required to get them to sound good.  Most important have fun.

After that, get some measurement software (SMAART is the gold standard of course by Audiotools on an iPad with the measurement mic is great and REW is free and will give you phase and magnitude info).  Post the traces and everyone will help you learn about system optimization.  It's just another step in your journey.  No need to sweat it.

I have never used measurement tools personally so it would be good to get some help there - Scott isn't far from me and at some point I'd like to get with him and go over fine tuning what I have. Till then, I'm quite happy with what I've done so far and I have everything ready to go. No shows this weekend - visiting friends  in CA but 2 next weekend so I'll be using the rig for the first time.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Taylor Hall on October 29, 2019, 10:22:35 am
I would second just playing around with REW to dip your toes in the measurement world. It's really straightforward to use and requires very minimal extra hardware (just a measurement mic and USB interface which you would need for a SMAART rig anyways) to get going. At the very least it will give you a usable response curve to see what's happ'nin and quickly identify anything your ears may have overlooked. Plus it's free software so that's always nice :)

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 29, 2019, 10:38:04 am
For which spot in the room, horizontally and/or vertically (in this case) are we aligning for?  Are we aligning for propagation delay differences between sub and top, or for the distance in height between the sub and top?

If the former, good.  If the latter... uh... which elevation is the alignment point?  Yes, as you change distance between sub and top there is a time change... but for whom and *does it matter*?

Likewise, one or two lucky people most benefit for a time alignment between center clustered subs and tops on each side - so pick the spot(s) or... heresy for sure - it doesn't matter nearly as much as all the hand waving and clutching of pearls would indicate.

Pick your spot (maybe you'll be the lucky person) but for everyone else in the room, it's a compromise of varying proportions.  There is no definitive answer.

Tim "Mr. Alignment" Mc, -Jamie Anderson Smaart class of 2004
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 29, 2019, 10:52:13 am
I have never used measurement tools personally so it would be good to get some help there - Scott isn't far from me and at some point I'd like to get with him and go over fine tuning what I have. Till then, I'm quite happy with what I've done so far and I have everything ready to go. No shows this weekend - visiting friends  in CA but 2 next weekend so I'll be using the rig for the first time.

Can't wait to hear reviews.  Travel safe
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 29, 2019, 10:54:37 am
For which spot in the room, horizontally and/or vertically (in this case) are we aligning for?  Are we aligning for propagation delay differences between sub and top, or for the distance in height between the sub and top?

If the former, good.  If the latter... uh... which elevation is the alignment point?  Yes, as you change distance between sub and top there is a time change... but for whom and *does it matter*?

Likewise, one or two lucky people most benefit for a time alignment between center clustered subs and tops on each side - so pick the spot(s) or... heresy for sure - it doesn't matter nearly as much as all the hand waving and clutching of pearls would indicate.

Pick your spot (maybe you'll be the lucky person) but for everyone else in the room, it's a compromise of varying proportions.  There is no definitive answer.

Tim "Mr. Alignment" Mc, -Jamie Anderson Smaart class of 2004

Tim,  it's data, right now she is inputting numbers with little context.  Now she can visualize the interaction.  As Frank pointed out, near field.

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Robert Lunceford on October 29, 2019, 01:01:25 pm
I have never used measurement tools personally so it would be good to get some help there - Scott isn't far from me and at some point I'd like to get with him and go over fine tuning what I have. Till then, I'm quite happy with what I've done so far and I have everything ready to go. No shows this weekend - visiting friends  in CA but 2 next weekend so I'll be using the rig for the first time.
The Danley FAQ page explains how to align the top with the sub without the need for measurement tools It is done by just using your ears and reversing the phase of the subwoofer.
What part of California are you visiting?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 29, 2019, 01:05:01 pm
Tim,  it's data, right now she is inputting numbers with little context.  Now she can visualize the interaction.  As Frank pointed out, near field.

Hi Scott, my point is that *some* alignment is very valuable, some less so, and some is close to pointless.  It's up to the user to decide but as was pointed out up-thread, *vertical* distance changes of the magnitude we're discussing here get close to the pointless.  In arenas with both flown and ground stacked subs it's another matter (and opportunity to beam-steer some sub energy) but when we're talking a couple of feet, there is not a significant improvement to be had at the point of acoustic crossover WRT coverage.

Align for a mythical planar wave front from the tops and subs, irrespective of the fairly small distance between them.  I promise you all there will be no improvement in coverage except at *ONE* vertical location in the listening area.  Is it worth the effort?  Maybe, but for everyone else in the room it makes zero, zip, nada difference and anything that changes the sub v top arrival times at the ears of any random listener will negate the effort.

I've spent 15 years making measurements and the key to them is to know what can be improved via measurement and what is folly.  Y'all are taking the fun and new discovery out of Debbie's new system by suggesting she *needs* to do stuff that frankly is like a British fox hunt - the unspeakable in full pursuit of the inedible (metaphorically, anyway).

None of this is necessary for her to take out the new rig and enjoy mixing on it, receive compliments on the rig, and otherwise not be swallowed up in efforts unnecessary to the debut of the system.

The Danley FAQ page explains how to align the top with the sub without the need for measurement tools It is done by just using your ears and reversing the phase of the subwoofer.
What part of California are you visiting?

^^^ THIS RIGHT HERE.  Thank you for being the voice of simplicity, Robert.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Jonathan Betts on October 29, 2019, 01:45:17 pm
Iím right there with Tim and others on this one. I just normally role with numbers that the fine folks at Danley provided me. My rig sounds great outdoors and in nice sounding halls. If the system sounds bad I know itís either the band or the room or both. If I have time or the curiosity I may measure. It rarely makes a difference sonically either way.  IMO, for  my level of production itís a waist of time.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Frank Koenig on October 29, 2019, 01:50:11 pm
No one is suggesting that we go into a gig and try to design the sub/top crossover from scratch. That is why it is useful to have a reference delay (my term) that assumes the sub and top are equidistant from the listener. In the absence of good measurement conditions this can be approximately VERIFIED by near-field measurement. If what you get is way off from the published settings it will be highly informative to figure out why. (With all the DSP and digital interconnects we use these days it is not impossible, even for experts, to screw up somewhere.) Furthermore, knowing the reference delay lets you estimate a reasonable sub/top delay in situations where the desired sweet spot is not equidistant from the speakers. You can use a range finder, tape measure, a mic cable, your shoes, or your eyeballs to come up with a reasonable estimate. And while not perfect throughout the venue it is still better to be within, say, +/- 120 deg (which theoretically results in a 6 dB magnitude variation) than to be 180 deg out.

I've read plenty about system alignment and attended numerous seminars on the subject (most recently two weeks ago at AES in New York) and one theme that remains constant is that the main purpose of in-the-field measurement is to verify proper system operation. Never was it said that because we can't align within 1 deg everywhere that system alignment is useless and we shouldn't even bother. Flogging a dead horse.

--Frank
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 29, 2019, 02:02:56 pm
The Danley FAQ page explains how to align the top with the sub without the need for measurement tools It is done by just using your ears and reversing the phase of the subwoofer.
What part of California are you visiting?

Temecula and San Diego. We used to live there.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Steve Garris on October 29, 2019, 02:05:19 pm
Temecula and San Diego. We used to live there.

Wow! I'm planning a move to Temecula. Loved it and San Diego! Hopefully next summer.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: David Allred on October 29, 2019, 02:05:25 pm
Iím right there with Tim and others on this one. I just normally role with numbers that the fine folks at Danley provided me. My rig sounds great outdoors and in nice sounding halls. If the system sounds bad I know itís either the band or the room or both. If I have time or the curiosity I may measure. It rarely makes a difference sonically either way.  IMO, for  my level of production itís a waist of time.

I sympathize with Debbie.  She bought a Mazerati because she heard it'll do 185.  The problem is that her eyes begin to blur at 165 and can't read the speedometer after that to confirm that she is getting all it can give.  The Camaro she sold could do 125 all day but would get loose above that.  All her friends are telling her that 165 is plenty fast and not worry about that extra 20.  :)
Bad analogy, sorry.  :-[
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 29, 2019, 02:29:19 pm
I sympathize with Debbie.  She bought a Mazerati because she heard it'll do 185.  The problem is that her eyes begin to blur at 165 and can't read the speedometer after that to confirm that she is getting all it can give.  The Camaro she sold could do 125 all day but would get loose above that.  All her friends are telling her that 165 is plenty fast and not worry about that extra 20.  :)
Bad analogy, sorry.  :-[

LOL - I like it!!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Jonathan Betts on October 29, 2019, 05:53:19 pm
Iím really looking forward to hearing her thoughts on the rig once she has had some time with it.

Have fun Debbie!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 29, 2019, 07:16:45 pm
Wow! I'm planning a move to Temecula. Loved it and San Diego! Hopefully next summer.

Nice Steve.... I loved it there - best climate there is and beautiful but it just got too busy for us after 12 years. It became very difficult for Chris to run his business (day job) with such traffic congestion.
We are looking forward to seeing our friends again though...We are staying with our old guitarist we played with for some years ... we have a LOT of fond memories...
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Dave Garoutte on October 29, 2019, 10:09:23 pm
Wait.. You have a Maserati? :o
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 29, 2019, 10:10:18 pm
Iím really looking forward to hearing her thoughts on the rig once she has had some time with it.

Have fun Debbie!

Me too.  It will be a unique perspective. 
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 29, 2019, 10:13:59 pm
No one is suggesting that we go into a gig and try to design the sub/top crossover from scratch. That is why it is useful to have a reference delay (my term) that assumes the sub and top are equidistant from the listener. In the absence of good measurement conditions this can be approximately VERIFIED by near-field measurement. If what you get is way off from the published settings it will be highly informative to figure out why. (With all the DSP and digital interconnects we use these days it is not impossible, even for experts, to screw up somewhere.) Furthermore, knowing the reference delay lets you estimate a reasonable sub/top delay in situations where the desired sweet spot is not equidistant from the speakers. You can use a range finder, tape measure, a mic cable, your shoes, or your eyeballs to come up with a reasonable estimate. And while not perfect throughout the venue it is still better to be within, say, +/- 120 deg (which theoretically results in a 6 dB magnitude variation) than to be 180 deg out.

I've read plenty about system alignment and attended numerous seminars on the subject (most recently two weeks ago at AES in New York) and one theme that remains constant is that the main purpose of in-the-field measurement is to verify proper system operation. Never was it said that because we can't align within 1 deg everywhere that system alignment is useless and we shouldn't even bother. Flogging a dead horse.

--Frank

Frank - That's similar to my thinking.  I know that there is not much opto to a speaker on a stick but Debbie didn't have big comfort with the deep settings on the SRX system and now has moved up to a level where understanding what the settings do and how to set them so they best match how you work. That's one of the things that separates the pro gear from the prosumer. 

I think using other peoples settings out of context is just a bad idea for many reasons.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Art Welter on October 30, 2019, 01:20:42 pm
The Danley FAQ page explains how to align the top with the sub without the need for measurement tools It is done by just using your ears and reversing the phase of the subwoofer.
Not quite.
The quote:

"Depending on the crossover freq and delay used, sometimes it is best to flip the polarity of the tapped horn in order to get the best response. This will need to be either measured or tested to be sure what is best. Here is a simple test to get close. Choose whatever crossover freq you want and put that frequency Ė ( use a sine wave) into the system-driving both the Tapped horn and the full range loudspeaker. Increase the delay time on the full range loudspeaker until you get a null and adjust so you get the maximum null. If you donít get a null-but rather something that sounds like a bump, try reversing the polarity and adjust again. When you have the delay time in the deepest part of the null-invert the polarity on the sub and you will be done. The lower freq the Tapped horn goes, the longer the delay time will generally be. But in the range of 3-20ms would be typical-but it could be longer or shorter depending on the particular setup."

So, depending on the acoustic crossover point determined by the LF "haystack" desired, and how low the SM-80 will be used, on a set up like Debbie's, the top delay time might vary from around 3ms to 9ms.

Like Ivan says, "it depends" ;^).

Art

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 30, 2019, 01:47:48 pm
Not quite.
The quote:

"Depending on the crossover freq and delay used, sometimes it is best to flip the polarity of the tapped horn in order to get the best response. This will need to be either measured or tested to be sure what is best. Here is a simple test to get close. Choose whatever crossover freq you want and put that frequency Ė ( use a sine wave) into the system-driving both the Tapped horn and the full range loudspeaker. Increase the delay time on the full range loudspeaker until you get a null and adjust so you get the maximum null. If you donít get a null-but rather something that sounds like a bump, try reversing the polarity and adjust again. When you have the delay time in the deepest part of the null-invert the polarity on the sub and you will be done. The lower freq the Tapped horn goes, the longer the delay time will generally be. But in the range of 3-20ms would be typical-but it could be longer or shorter depending on the particular setup."

So, depending on the acoustic crossover point determined by the LF "haystack" desired, and how low the SM-80 will be used, on a set up like Debbie's, the top delay time might vary from around 3ms to 9ms.

Like Ivan says, "it depends" ;^).

Art
And just to add, the actual delay is NOT just the physical distance.  The various filters used will have a "delay" (Phase shift/ie time shift) that should not be forgotten.

Also the physical distance is NOT (I repeat NOT!!!) the distance between the top and the sub (and whatever delay the sub has in it), but RATHER, the distance between the top and the sub (and associated internal delay) to A PARTICULAR LISTENING POSITION.

Each position will have a different delay time associated with it (basic triangulation math).

So you choose a "representative" location and go with it.  You CANNOT get it perfect for everybody, unless the sub and top are in the same physical position, so the distance does not vary between each device and the listener.

This is true for ANY sub/top setup.

Hence the reason a single box (if it will provide the response and SPL needed) is the best solution.  Because you will get the same sound at the different seats, no fussing with delays or trying to figure out what seat is the best.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: John L Nobile on October 30, 2019, 01:55:07 pm


Hence the reason a single box (if it will provide the response and SPL needed) is the best solution.

Agreed but the problem is that you have to move it. Works for installs though.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on October 30, 2019, 02:03:55 pm
And just to add, the actual delay is NOT just the physical distance.  The various filters used will have a "delay" (Phase shift/ie time shift) that should not be forgotten.

Also the physical distance is NOT (I repeat NOT!!!) the distance between the top and the sub (and whatever delay the sub has in it), but RATHER, the distance between the top and the sub (and associated internal delay) to A PARTICULAR LISTENING POSITION.

Each position will have a different delay time associated with it (basic triangulation math).

So you choose a "representative" location and go with it.  You CANNOT get it perfect for everybody, unless the sub and top are in the same physical position, so the distance does not vary between each device and the listener.

This is true for ANY sub/top setup.

Hence the reason a single box (if it will provide the response and SPL needed) is the best solution.  Because you will get the same sound at the different seats, no fussing with delays or trying to figure out what seat is the best.

Does this hold true even when the top box and sub enclosure are closer than 1/4 wavelength of the crossover point? Say even as close as 30 degrees off before correct delay is added? With a crossover point of 80hz and the size of the 80hz wave would they combine as a single wave front? Especially with the top box sitting on top of the sub? Or some lobbing , missalignment still occure?

Douglas R. Allen
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Frank Koenig on October 30, 2019, 02:04:24 pm
"Depending on the crossover freq and delay used, sometimes it is best to flip the polarity of the tapped horn in order to get the best response. This will need to be either measured or tested to be sure what is best. Here is a simple test to get close. Choose whatever crossover freq you want and put that frequency Ė ( use a sine wave) into the system-driving both the Tapped horn and the full range loudspeaker. Increase the delay time on the full range loudspeaker until you get a null and adjust so you get the maximum null. If you donít get a null-but rather something that sounds like a bump, try reversing the polarity and adjust again. When you have the delay time in the deepest part of the null-invert the polarity on the sub and you will be done. The lower freq the Tapped horn goes, the longer the delay time will generally be. But in the range of 3-20ms would be typical-but it could be longer or shorter depending on the particular setup."

This could work but there is some risk of landing on a less than optimum phase crossing. You'll end up with matched phase delay but there is no guarantee that you'll end up with matched group delay. It can look pretty ambiguous sometimes, even with a proper phase display, whether to flip polarity and delay half a cycle, or not.

Will you still get through the gig if you're off by a half or full cycle? Of course. You can get through the gig with no alignment by opening up a gap in the sub/top overlap. But we're trying to optimize here.

I think once you're familiar with a particular setup (and know your reference delay) this can effectively be used as a verification method in a sufficiently reflection-free environment.

--Frank

Thinking about this a little more, the WIDTH of the null can give you some information about group delay. A wider null would indicate a better match of phase slope in the vicinity of the crossover.

Just watch out for those room modes when listening to sine waves :)  -F

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Frank Koenig on October 30, 2019, 02:22:21 pm
Does this hold true even when the top box and sub enclosure are closer than 1/4 wavelength of the crossover point? Say even as close as 30 degrees off before correct delay is added? With a crossover point of 80hz and the size of the 80hz wave would they combine as a single wave front? Especially with the top box sitting on top of the sub? Or some lobbing , missalignment still occure?

Douglas R. Allen

Here's a rule of thumb:

https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,172048.0.html (https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,172048.0.html)

--Frank
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 30, 2019, 02:39:50 pm
I'm stupid excited about using this system - I keep connecting the amps to Armonia and playing around with them.
If I were a guitarist or keyboard player and had purchased a new guitar or keyboard, I could have been having fun day one but with a new PA, I have no choice but to wait for the first show that comes along - no fair.....

I'm loving the amount of room we now have in the garage having moved the SRX system - double 18", 2 single 18"s, 2 15' tops and 2 12' tops. Neither of us realized it would make as much difference as it has. I didn't get to keep the 15's which I would have done by now if they hadn't sold on the last ad renewal. 15's are handy to have around ....
However, does this mean I have more room for more equipment???  LOL.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: David Allred on October 30, 2019, 03:45:42 pm
I'm stupid excited about using this system - I keep connecting the amps to Armonia and playing around with them.
If I were a guitarist or keyboard player and had purchased a new guitar or keyboard, I could have been having fun day one but with a new PA, I have no choice but to wait for the first show that comes along - no fair.....

I'm loving the amount of room we now have in the garage having moved the SRX system - double 18", 2 single 18"s, 2 15' tops and 2 12' tops. Neither of us realized it would make as much difference as it has. I didn't get to keep the 15's which I would have done by now if they hadn't sold on the last ad renewal. 15's are handy to have around ....
However, does this mean I have more room for more equipment???  LOL.
If only your had had the forethought to record straight off the inputs to a (however many channels you use) multitrack one of your shows.   ::)
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on October 30, 2019, 04:25:55 pm
If only your had had the forethought to record straight off the inputs to a (however many channels you use) multitrack one of your shows.   ::)

I already did David - this is what allowed me to get a quick comparison and do a bit of mixing the first time I checked out the Danley rig last week. Thing is I can't get the level of volume here that I will at a show. So yes - I've had  bit of a taster - or should I say teaser?
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Ed Hall on October 30, 2019, 04:37:14 pm
However, does this mean I have more room for more equipment???  LOL.

Uh oh! are you relapsing already?

Remember, the Danley system wasn't YOUR G.A.S.!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 10, 2019, 07:10:51 pm
Plans didn't go as intended this weekend...
We ended up using the PRX system instead fro the following reasons:
1) Neither venue was very big so it made more sense to use the smaller powered system.
2) I was a mess the last few days and sadly in no state of mind to go the Danley way and needed to keep things simple and quick. We visited our sick friend in California last weekend and while we were away, my little 13 year old dog Bella, became very sick very quickly and we are losing her to kidney failure.
I am devastated and wanted to leave the Danley experience till a happier time.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Geert Friedhof on November 10, 2019, 07:53:18 pm
Sorry to hear about your friend and your best friend, Bella.

I lost my very best friend, a Chodsky Pes called Blesk, in february after he was diagnosed with hart failure in august last year. He was almost 11.

Carpe diem!




Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on November 10, 2019, 07:58:27 pm
Plans didn't go as intended this weekend...
We ended up using the PRX system instead fro the following reasons:
1) Neither venue was very big so it made more sense to use the smaller powered system.
2) I was a mess the last few days and sadly in no state of mind to go the Danley way and needed to keep things simple and quick. We visited our sick friend in California last weekend and while we were away, my little 13 year old dog Bella, became very sick very quickly and we are losing her to kidney failure.
I am devastated and wanted to leave the Danley experience till a happier time.

Sorry to hear about Bella. I lost one of my 10 year old Doxies "Lucy" not long ago to the same thing. Its always tough. Spend time with her if you can. There are things in life that just can't be changed or predict. I found out my wife has stage 4 breast cancer in late September that is in her spine, skull and ribs and a week later my father of 87 years pasted away. My fun shows are few at this moment and to be honest I've been passing them off to who I can. Perhaps spending too much time here to keep busy as she sleeps.  :-[ I can understand how it takes the drive out of shows. Life sometimes is not easy.

True love shows itself as hurt when a person or pet passes. It shows you truly cared.
Kindest Regards;
Douglas R. Allen

Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Geert Friedhof on November 10, 2019, 08:20:20 pm
True love shows itself as hurt when a person or pet passes. It shows you truly cared.

Nicely spoken
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: dave briar on November 10, 2019, 09:04:23 pm
My sincerest sympathies to you both.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on November 11, 2019, 12:37:10 am
Plans didn't go as intended this weekend...
We ended up using the PRX system instead fro the following reasons:
1) Neither venue was very big so it made more sense to use the smaller powered system.
2) I was a mess the last few days and sadly in no state of mind to go the Danley way and needed to keep things simple and quick. We visited our sick friend in California last weekend and while we were away, my little 13 year old dog Bella, became very sick very quickly and we are losing her to kidney failure.
I am devastated and wanted to leave the Danley experience till a happier time.

So sorry Debbie - Thoughts and prayers
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: John L Nobile on November 11, 2019, 10:39:57 am
my little 13 year old dog Bella, became very sick very quickly and we are losing her to kidney failure.
I am devastated and wanted to leave the Danley experience till a happier time.

Very sorry to hear that. It's very sad to lose a dog. They quickly become family. I've had 2 and I still miss them.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 11, 2019, 03:18:08 pm
Thank you for all the kind words guys - I really appreciate that. I LOVE my 3 dogs and dread them getting old or sick.

My update on my little Bella - hopeful ....
We went to our scheduled appointment today and quite honestly after her decline this weekend, we feared the worst But the doctor and I are not giving up so I have returned home with a 1000ml bag of fluids. I am to administer 100ml per day for 10 days and then check her levels again. Home dialysis for doggies...
She had an anti nausea shot and 100ml fluids as well as her blood test - 3 sticks - and she was such little trooper. She hasn't eaten yet but I hope she does later....

Through all of this I did think of a PA question for you guys.
As you know, for the Danley system, I have chosen to use a 2 channel amp per side running stereo to be able to utilize the D snake as I did before with the SRX powered system. A lot of the shows will only require one sub but I still want to stick to stereo and keep the cabling tidy - nothing running across the stage. With the powered system it was easy with one sub as it had 2 channels - my stereo field is only really used for guitar and keys and to separate instruments that share the same frequency space.
Would I be best to run the sub separately from an aux and keep it mono ? Otherwise I'll only be sending only one side of the stereo field for everything under 90hz.
 
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: John L Nobile on November 11, 2019, 03:35:13 pm
I can't remember what you're using for processing. And this thread's too looong to look back. Maybe start a new one?

I sum to mono on my processor.
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on November 11, 2019, 04:16:41 pm
I can't remember what you're using for processing. And this thread's too looong to look back. Maybe start a new one?

I sum to mono on my processor.

OK - starting a new thread:

https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?action=post;board=10.0
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Don T. Williams on November 11, 2019, 04:42:14 pm
Hope Bella is better!
Title: Re: Not my G.A.S this time - LOL
Post by: Scott Holtzman on November 11, 2019, 05:30:44 pm
Thank you for all the kind words guys - I really appreciate that. I LOVE my 3 dogs and dread them getting old or sick.

My update on my little Bella - hopeful ....
We went to our scheduled appointment today and quite honestly after her decline this weekend, we feared the worst But the doctor and I are not giving up so I have returned home with a 1000ml bag of fluids. I am to administer 100ml per day for 10 days and then check her levels again. Home dialysis for doggies...
She had an anti nausea shot and 100ml fluids as well as her blood test - 3 sticks - and she was such little trooper. She hasn't eaten yet but I hope she does later....

Through all of this I did think of a PA question for you guys.
As you know, for the Danley system, I have chosen to use a 2 channel amp per side running stereo to be able to utilize the D snake as I did before with the SRX powered system. A lot of the shows will only require one sub but I still want to stick to stereo and keep the cabling tidy - nothing running across the stage. With the powered system it was easy with one sub as it had 2 channels - my stereo field is only really used for guitar and keys and to separate instruments that share the same frequency space.
Would I be best to run the sub separately from an aux and keep it mono ? Otherwise I'll only be sending only one side of the stereo field for everything under 90hz.

Run the cable around the back of the stage.

The only reason to not run cables on an elevated stage (even if it is just a lip) is aesthetic.  On a flat performance area it's safety.  Even on big weddings if you have an elevated stage cables get run up front.  By the time lighting, audio and video are done it's usually quite the pile of cables, and it is sorta expected.  If it's a skirted stage of course you can push the cables under the stage.

 
Title: As Debbie so succinctly put it...
Post by: Mac Kerr on November 11, 2019, 05:47:20 pm
OK - starting a new thread:

Start a new thread.