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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Wireless and Communications => Topic started by: Rob Spence on September 12, 2019, 01:57:51 pm

Title: WWB question - location?
Post by: Rob Spence on September 12, 2019, 01:57:51 pm
I am redoing my frequency coordination for an upcoming event in the Boston area. I know the repack happened recently which is why I want to do this.

So, I have a couple of WWB questions.

I have latest version of WWB installed.

My inventory seems correct and it has the frequencies my units are currently set to. These were set at beginning of summer before repack.

I have updated the Show Properties with current info.

My units are Shure ULX J1 and Sennheiser A band.

When analyzing and calculating, how does it choose the center of the event? I know I set it once before but I canít find it.

In the frequency coordination tab, all units have different frequencies than inventory. Is there a way to set them to what the inventory shows and then analyze to see if they are still ok?

I would love to simply leave the units where they are if I can and not reprogram on site to remove a task.

Thanks to all for all the great help here.

S/rob
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Russell Ault on September 12, 2019, 03:45:10 pm
In the frequency coordination tab, all units have different frequencies than inventory. Is there a way to set them to what the inventory shows and then analyze to see if they are still ok?

The easiest way I know of it achieve this is to delete all the channels in the Coordination Workspace (use the "Clear Coordination Workspace" button that looks like a trash can) and then use the "Select Frequencies from Inventory..." button on the "Add Frequencies" tab. Everything you add to the Coordination Workspace this way will include whatever frequency it's currently set to in the Inventory. Then you can set the Compatibility modes as you normal would and use the Analyze function (check the box to get detailed information about what is and isn't working).

After running an "Analyze", every compatible frequency will be highlighted in green, with incompatible ones in red. Press the "Lock Compatible Frequencies, Unlock All Others" button (it's the lock with the green check-mark), then run the "Calculate" function. This will only re-calculate the frequencies that failed the analysis, meaning you'll only need to reprogram problem channels instead of all of them. The rest of the process (verifying the results work for you, Deploying the coordination to Inventory, etc.) should then be the same as normal.

-Russ
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Rob Spence on September 12, 2019, 03:53:33 pm
The easiest way I know of it achieve this is to delete all the channels in the Coordination Workspace (use the "Clear Coordination Workspace" button that looks like a trash can) and then use the "Select Frequencies from Inventory..." button on the "Add Frequencies" tab. Everything you add to the Coordination Workspace this way will include whatever frequency it's currently set to in the Inventory. Then you can set the Compatibility modes as you normal would and use the Analyze function (check the box to get detailed information about what is and isn't working).

After running an "Analyze", every compatible frequency will be highlighted in green, with incompatible ones in red. Press the "Lock Compatible Frequencies, Unlock All Others" button (it's the lock with the green check-mark), then run the "Calculate" function. This will only re-calculate the frequencies that failed the analysis, meaning you'll only need to reprogram problem channels instead of all of them. The rest of the process (verifying the results work for you, Deploying the coordination to Inventory, etc.) should then be the same as normal.

-Russ

Thanks.

What about where is my venue location set?
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on September 12, 2019, 04:40:55 pm
Thanks.

What about where is my venue location set?

You can also save under a new name and play around with that version of you coordination. What version of WWB are you using? They have made some recent changes. The newest one is using a database look up when you enter the location for the coordination. But I have been warned that the database is flawed. See this thread. https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,171985.0.html
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Mac Kerr on September 12, 2019, 04:54:13 pm
You can also save under a new name and play around with that version of you coordination. What version of WWB are you using? They have made some recent changes. The newest one is using a database look up when you enter the location for the coordination. But I have been warned that the database is flawed. See this thread. https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,171985.0.html

I think his question is where in WWB do I enter the location for the coord. I have the same question.

Mac
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: John Sulek on September 12, 2019, 06:07:51 pm
I think his question is where in WWB do I enter the location for the coord. I have the same question.

Mac

Under the frequency coordination tab...spectrum tab on lower right...hit the gear for TV channels...that will open a pane where you can enter zip code or lat/long, distance and other options then hit search. When the list populates, hit save and the search results will be the TV channels to avoid.
Unless someone knows a faster way.
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Russell Ault on September 12, 2019, 06:56:01 pm
Under the frequency coordination tab...spectrum tab on lower right...hit the gear for TV channels...that will open a pane where you can enter zip code or lat/long, distance and other options then hit search. When the list populates, hit save and the search results will be the TV channels to avoid.
Unless someone knows a faster way.

Depends on whether you want accurate results or not. I haven't found the databases WWB accesses to be particularly up-to-date, at least in North America. If you can't do a scan, I'd recommend using other online tools to look up the TV stations to avoid and then enter them into that pane in WWB manually; I'd skip WWB's geographic look-up tools entirely.

-Russ
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Rob Spence on September 12, 2019, 06:57:28 pm
Under the frequency coordination tab...spectrum tab on lower right...hit the gear for TV channels...that will open a pane where you can enter zip code or lat/long, distance and other options then hit search. When the list populates, hit save and the search results will be the TV channels to avoid.
Unless someone knows a faster way.

Thanks very much.
About half my radios need new frequencies but only 2 of the ones for Saturday do.

Too bad there isnít a simple check box to take the zip code from the avenue address.

Now I gotta figure out if my results a valid.
Where should I look for better data?

Is it good enough after finding better data to simply check/uncheck boxes in the tv channel list?

Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Rob Spence on September 12, 2019, 07:03:47 pm
Depends on whether you want accurate results or not. I haven't found the databases WWB accesses to be particularly up-to-date, at least in North America. If you can't do a scan, I'd recommend using other online tools to look up the TV stations to avoid and then enter them into that pane in WWB manually; I'd skip WWB's geographic look-up tools entirely.

-Russ

My radios donít scan. My venue is outdoors in Somerville directly across the river from the new Encore casino.
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on September 12, 2019, 07:18:31 pm
I think his question is where in WWB do I enter the location for the coord. I have the same question.

Mac

John has answered that question.

I was asking what version because the latest version that I have 6.13.0.168 when you get to the place to enter the location either zip code or Longitude and Latitude that whole page has drastically changed. And I don't know any more how reliable that whole procedure is because of the inaccuracies that are mentioned in the link I posted. I actually wasn't even assuming that he was using a current enough version of WWB that where you put in the location would be in the place that John pointed to.

I don't remember at what version number it was where WWB changed drastically but it is still version 6 but somewhere around V6.12 (I think) it changed drastically. So much so that I was surprised they didn't call it V7. I really like all of the changes they have made and that is rare for me. I am usually a hold out when there are drastic changes. I still have a shortcut on my desktop for version 5 of WWB and as I was writing this I opened it up and I realized I haven't used it in such a long time I don't remember how to use it. 

They very recently changed some things in the latest version of WWB and one of the changes is that the location (if you have internet service) will look up the data for the location you enter, on line. After my last reply to this thread I played around and tried to do a TV station lookup in WWB and discovered if you don't have an internet connection is seems to use an internal database to do the look up.

I as I write this am trying to see what happens when I look up Denver Colorado zip 80022 (looking out to 50 miles) and I picked that location out of the blue. When unplugged from the internet I get 19 TV channels. When I reconnect to the internet and run the TV lookup again I get 27 TV channels found but only 15 selected because I have "Only select high powered TV ChannelsĒ checked (that is a new feature). So it is ignoring for the coordination the Low powered TV channels. And the TV channels it is finding in the online Database are not the same as the off line. Some of them are still in the 600MHz band so this isnít totally repacked yet.

This is some of my findings.
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Rob Spence on September 12, 2019, 07:32:09 pm
John has answered that question.

I was asking what version because the latest version that I have 6.13.0.168 when you get to the place to enter the location either zip code or Longitude and Latitude that whole page has drastically changed. And I don't know any more how reliable that whole procedure is because of the inaccuracies that are mentioned in the link I posted. I actually wasn't even assuming that he was using a current enough version of WWB that where you put in the location would be in the place that John pointed to.

I don't remember at what version number it was where WWB changed drastically but it is still version 6 but somewhere around V6.12 (I think) it changed drastically. So much so that I was surprised they didn't call it V7. I really like all of the changes they have made and that is rare for me. I am usually a hold out when there are drastic changes. I still have a shortcut on my desktop for version 5 of WWB and as I was writing this I opened it up and I realized I haven't used it in such a long time I don't remember how to use it. 

They very recently changed some things in the latest version of WWB and one of the changes is that the location (if you have internet service) will look up the data for the location you enter, on line. After my last reply to this thread I played around and tried to do a TV station lookup in WWB and discovered if you don't have an internet connection is seems to use an internal database to do the look up.

I as I write this am trying to see what happens when I look up Denver Colorado zip 80022 (looking out to 50 miles) and I picked that location out of the blue. When unplugged from the internet I get 19 TV channels. When I reconnect to the internet and run the TV lookup again I get 27 TV channels found but only 15 selected because I have "Only select high powered TV ChannelsĒ checked (that is a new feature). So it is ignoring for the coordination the Low powered TV channels. And the TV channels it is finding in the online Database are not the same as the off line. Some of them are still in the 600MHz band so this isnít totally repacked yet.

This is some of my findings.

I am using the latest ( 6.13.0.168 ).

I had a bunch of tv channels from last spring. I unchecked everything and rescanned and it listed more. I should look to see if there are still 600+ MHz channels listed.

Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Rick Earl on September 12, 2019, 07:42:43 pm
My radios donít scan. My venue is outdoors in Somerville directly across the river from the new Encore casino.

As mentioned in another thread,https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,171985.0.html (https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,171985.0.html) by Henry Cohen, https://www.rabbitears.info/ (https://www.rabbitears.info/) is probably the most up-to-date reference for local TV.  Sometimes you have to enter the data manually if they don't show up in the WWB database look-up.  Rabbit Ears can pin-point your location vi. GPS coordinates and give you predicted signal strength for all local TV.  I like to back it up with a scan as well, but I find this is better than relying on WWB alone.
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Russell Ault on September 12, 2019, 09:51:37 pm
Is it good enough after finding better data to simply check/uncheck boxes in the tv channel list?

Yup! As I understand it, all WWB is doing is asking you which TV stations it should exclude from assigning frequencies in, and the calculations don't care if you get the data from its internal look-up or enter it manually. I don't believe it's doing anything else in the background with that location data.

-Russ
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on September 12, 2019, 10:29:47 pm
I am using the latest ( 6.13.0.168 ).

I had a bunch of tv channels from last spring. I unchecked everything and rescanned and it listed more. I should look to see if there are still 600+ MHz channels listed.

You could do a lookup in https://www.rabbitears.info/ (I have never used it but as you can see others recommend it). And then you can (as you asked) check the TV channels in use in that area. https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=11482 I donít know if this helps you but this is the first time I have used Rabbitears but I think these are the stations you would need to worry about. I would hope that the casino is far enough away to not cause you any problem with any wireless they might be using. And since you donít have the ability to scan then you might just need to take a chance. 

I donít know how many wireless mics of each brand and band that you have but I did a rough coordination using the info you gave and will email a WWB show file if you message me an email address to use. I got 11 channels of Shure ULX J1 and 7 Sennheiser EW100 G3 (just a guess) A band.
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Rob Spence on September 12, 2019, 10:58:23 pm
You could do a lookup in https://www.rabbitears.info/ (I have never used it but as you can see others recommend it). And then you can (as you asked) check the TV channels in use in that area. https://www.rabbitears.info/searchmap.php?request=result&study_id=11482 I donít know if this helps you but this is the first time I have used Rabbitears but I think these are the stations you would need to worry about. I would hope that the casino is far enough away to not cause you any problem with any wireless they might be using. And since you donít have the ability to scan then you might just need to take a chance. 

I donít know how many wireless mics of each brand and band that you have but I did a rough coordination using the info you gave and will email a WWB show file if you message me an email address to use. I got 11 channels of Shure ULX J1 and 7 Sennheiser EW100 G3 (just a guess) A band.

Thanks.

My email isnít a secret...
 rob at lynx audio services (1 word) dot com

I have 12 ch of ULX J1 and 3 ch of Senn.

For this gig it is 5 ULX and a Sennheiser IEM transmitter to a EW100 receiver 500 ft away for remote speakers.

When I checked, 1 ULX and my Sennheiser link were affected.

I will put in the data from rabbit ears tomorrow and see how it looks.

I only touch WWB once a year or so except for this year and with all the changes I have to learn all over each time.
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on September 12, 2019, 11:36:08 pm
Thanks.

My email isnít a secret...
 rob at lynx audio services (1 word) dot com

I have 12 ch of ULX J1 and 3 ch of Senn.

For this gig it is 5 ULX and a Sennheiser IEM transmitter to a EW100 receiver 500 ft away for remote speakers.

When I checked, 1 ULX and my Sennheiser link were affected.

I will put in the data from rabbit ears tomorrow and see how it looks.

I only touch WWB once a year or so except for this year and with all the changes I have to learn all over each time.

I sent you 2 different show files and I hope this works for you.

I know what you mean about only using something infrequently and having to relearn it. That happens to me when I use certain digital mixers very infrequently. I have been using WWB very regularly so I am pretty quick with it.
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: John Sulek on September 13, 2019, 09:51:22 am
Depends on whether you want accurate results or not. I haven't found the databases WWB accesses to be particularly up-to-date, at least in North America. If you can't do a scan, I'd recommend using other online tools to look up the TV stations to avoid and then enter them into that pane in WWB manually; I'd skip WWB's geographic look-up tools entirely.

-Russ

I don't use WWB as much as I do IAS, but either way I build a csv file from scans taken in the venue and work from there.
For any tour pre planning or looking ahead...I see what rabbitears has to say or who's posted a recent scan on bestaudio.com.
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Rob Spence on September 13, 2019, 01:23:38 pm
I sent you 2 different show files and I hope this works for you.

I know what you mean about only using something infrequently and having to relearn it. That happens to me when I use certain digital mixers very infrequently. I have been using WWB very regularly so I am pretty quick with it.

I loaded up the 12&3 show and see four frequencies on ch33 which rabbit ears lists as WCVB-TV?

Also, two frequencies are on ch22 which has a listing on rabbit ears.

Perhaps someone can help me understand the notations on rabbit Ears?
I am guessing
the (H) means high power station?
## arrow ## is a move?
Dunno what (G) means?
What is the green highlight?
What is the magenta highlight? I see those also have an X instead of a broadcasting icon?

Thank you. Getting closer.

Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Rob Spence on September 13, 2019, 01:25:50 pm
I don't use WWB as much as I do IAS, but either way I build a csv file from scans taken in the venue and work from there.
For any tour pre planning or looking ahead...I see what rabbitears has to say or who's posted a recent scan on bestaudio.com.

I am not sure I can afford one but what tool will scan and give me results I could put in a csv file?
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Rick Earl on September 13, 2019, 01:59:48 pm
I am not sure I can afford one but what tool will scan and give me results I could put in a csv file?

The RF Explorer - either the original version in various flavors https://www.seeedstudio.com/ham-radio-instruments-c-874.html?cat=876 (https://www.seeedstudio.com/ham-radio-instruments-c-874.html?cat=876) or the Pro Edition from RF Venue https://www.rfvenue.com/products/rf-explorer-pro-audio (https://www.rfvenue.com/products/rf-explorer-pro-audio) will work.  There is a free software interface or RF Venue also has a software package for the unit, both will create .csv files from the scan.  For the most part, I find this scanner does what I need to do accurately enough. 
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Steve Litscher on September 13, 2019, 02:40:31 pm
WOW - that Seed Studio RF Explorer looks like an incredible deal. I was shopping around on other sites and was thinking I might have to spend 4 figures for something... is the Seed RF Explorer 3G Combo really good enough to use for IEM channel searching in a new venue?
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: John Sulek on September 13, 2019, 02:49:45 pm
I am not sure I can afford one but what tool will scan and give me results I could put in a csv file?

An RFexplorer would work, I use a TTi .
There is a list with links on Pete Erskine's excellent site bestaudio.com. Look under the "scans" tab.
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Rick Earl on September 13, 2019, 03:04:53 pm
WOW - that Seed Studio RF Explorer looks like an incredible deal. I was shopping around on other sites and was thinking I might have to spend 4 figures for something... is the Seed RF Explorer 3G Combo really good enough to use for IEM channel searching in a new venue?

I can only answer based on my experience.  The seed studio and the RF Venue behave exactly the same in my software.  I know some people say they are off a bit from the expensive calibrated instruments.  Right now, the overlay of RF Explorer and Shure Axiant Digital Scans I have are almost identical and withing the tuning parameters of all of my wireless.  I have not had any issues from my scans and coordination using it.  I however, am not  a full time RF coordinator like some of the others on this forum, their experience runs much deeper than mine, so I would always defer to their opinion.
 I have invested in a Rohde & Schwarz spectrum analyzer with tracking generator, but I am still learning how to use it, but it does not fit in my travel kit at all like the RF Explorer does.
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Rob Spence on September 13, 2019, 04:49:49 pm
Thank you to everyone.

I will update after tomorrow.
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Don Boomer on September 13, 2019, 06:37:50 pm
Allow me to share a tip whether you use our RF Explorer PAE or any of the other silver scanners ...

Extent the range of your scans by 50MHz above and below your frequencies of interest. Coordination programs are only as good as the data you feed them and itís becoming apparent that out of band interference is contributing garbage in the band you need to use.

Basically the T-mobile 71 band, even though it starts at 620MHz is contributing intermod/noise down to about 550MHz. On the other end of the band LED lighting and video walls may be bumping up your noise floor up into the low 500s.

I confirmed with one of the Shure engineers responsible for WWB that the program would consider out of band info when calculating frequencies. I assume that it is similar for IAS and the others as well.
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Rob Spence on September 16, 2019, 10:09:51 pm
Kevin, thanks again.

I loaded up 6 of your frequencies. 5 to ULX and one to the IEM Sennheiser TX.
On site I powered up the receivers ( I would have preconfigured but the gear was loaded) and 3 had full scale RF. I set the frequencies and all the RF strength meters were dark. Yay! Problem free wireless mics all day.

The IEM TX went to a paddle at 13í. 500+ ft away, another paddle at 12í fed a Sennheiser RX and I had 5 of 6 bars and flawless audio all day at a beer garden.

I have ordered the inexpensive RF explorer and plan to go visit my usual outdoor sites and do some scans.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: WWB question - location?
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on September 16, 2019, 10:52:12 pm
Kevin, thanks again.

I loaded up 6 of your frequencies. 5 to ULX and one to the IEM Sennheiser TX.
On site I powered up the receivers ( I would have preconfigured but the gear was loaded) and 3 had full scale RF. I set the frequencies and all the RF strength meters were dark. Yay! Problem free wireless mics all day.

The IEM TX went to a paddle at 13í. 500+ ft away, another paddle at 12í fed a Sennheiser RX and I had 5 of 6 bars and flawless audio all day at a beer garden.

I have ordered the inexpensive RF explorer and plan to go visit my usual outdoor sites and do some scans.

Thanks again.

I am glade to hear that it went well.