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Title: Network config - questions
Post by: David Allred on September 12, 2019, 12:56:39 pm
I recently added a 2nd laptop to separate audio (MR18, Venu360, and DR260 via network/usb convertor) from lighting control. 
I had a 5-port switch in the rack housing the above on stage hardwired to the mix position (laptop) with an Airport Express for routing.  All IP's assigned dynamically by the AE.
I added another 5-port switch at the mix position for the 2 laptops.  I also connect wirelessly with a tablet.

I did a several day burn-in to check for disconnections, laptop lock-ups (main reason for the 2nd laptop), etc.

I experienced several connection losses to the MR18.  The network was still intact, but I have to re-link the software to the box.  The was no activity or inputs sources during the burn-in.  The duration of connectivity varied, but being set-up in a spare room, I would check randomly, as convenient.  Laptop set to never turn off screen or sleep.  (win7)

Question 1 - Would lack of activity cause a software disconnection?
Question 2 - What would cause the loss of software connection?
Question 3 - DCHP related?

I would consider going to static addressing if it would fix this problem. 

Question 4 - If the laptops are assigned static IP's, will that affect them trying to get onto another network wirelessly for internet without reconfiguring?

Thanks.

Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: Brian Adams on September 12, 2019, 01:39:02 pm
It's hard to know exactly what's going on with your network without seeing it, but my guess is that it's the laptop or software on the laptop losing the connection, not the network or the mixer. Most mixers are controlled for the duration of a show, maybe all day, but not typically several days in a row of being connected and not used. And if restarting the software fixes the problem, the problem is likely with the software.

This is not DHCP related, although if these devices are always on the same network there's no reason not to set them static. Using DHCP, once your equipment gets an address from the router it will continue getting the same address each time it's connected, unless it remains unconnected longer than the lease time (typically 30 days by default). A static IP will ensure that it always gets the same address no matter what, which is useful, but that's not causing your disconnects.

If your laptops are connected to the router wirelessly and have a static IP, you will have to change that before putting them on another network (unless the other network has the same network prefix/subnet and nothing already at your IP address, which is unlikely). It's also probably unlikely that you'll connect to a wired network other than this one, so you can set the wired address to static without affecting the wifi address, since they're separate network adapters within the machine.
Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: Taylor Hall on September 12, 2019, 01:42:46 pm
Is the MR18 dropout occurring on the tablet or laptop or both? Also, what app/program is being used to control it? Were you able to see if it was the laptop/tablet that was losing connection and not the mixer?

#1 is plausible but would depend on the software being used, I personally have not experienced this with our M32 using mixing station or M32 Edit, both wired and wireless.

#2 Most portable devices have pretty intensive power management routines baked into the OS. Tablets and the like are harder to dial it back on, but laptops are a bit easier. In windows you can open the power settings in the control panel and look at the advanced settings there. There are a few guides online about what to look for depending on the make/model laptop you have, different OEMs have different options.

#3 Unlikely unless you are seeing the IP of your mixer change in the software when you go to reconnect

#4 Potentially, yes. It depends on how the other networks are configured, so there's a good chance you'll have to go back to letting DHCP sort it out. You can get around this (on a laptop at least) by getting an additional USB wifi dongle and assigning your static settings there, then simply disable it when you're not running FOH.
Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 12, 2019, 09:57:17 pm
I recently added a 2nd laptop to separate audio (MR18, Venu360, and DR260 via network/usb convertor) from lighting control. 
I had a 5-port switch in the rack housing the above on stage hardwired to the mix position (laptop) with an Airport Express for routing.  All IP's assigned dynamically by the AE.
I added another 5-port switch at the mix position for the 2 laptops.  I also connect wirelessly with a tablet.

I did a several day burn-in to check for disconnections, laptop lock-ups (main reason for the 2nd laptop), etc.

I experienced several connection losses to the MR18.  The network was still intact, but I have to re-link the software to the box.  The was no activity or inputs sources during the burn-in.  The duration of connectivity varied, but being set-up in a spare room, I would check randomly, as convenient.  Laptop set to never turn off screen or sleep.  (win7)

Question 1 - Would lack of activity cause a software disconnection?
Question 2 - What would cause the loss of software connection?
Question 3 - DCHP related?

I would consider going to static addressing if it would fix this problem. 

Question 4 - If the laptops are assigned static IP's, will that affect them trying to get onto another network wirelessly for internet without reconfiguring?

Thanks.

Do you have the power save features turned off in the hardware setup for your laptop, BIOS and Windows?  With power API's today they all work together and have to be all off.

Better yet, install Linux on a dedicated laptop, Midas has a version for Linux!

One last thing, the Airport is acting as a wireless bridge.  No routing is done at all.  You have one network, a routers job is to forward packets between networks.

Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: David Allred on September 12, 2019, 10:08:30 pm
Do you have the power save features turned off in the hardware setup for your laptop, BIOS and Windows?  With power API's today they all work together and have to be all off.

Better yet, install Linux on a dedicated laptop, Midas has a version for Linux!

One last thing, the Airport is acting as a wireless bridge.  No routing is done at all.  You have one network, a routers job is to forward packets between networks.

The Airport is handing out the ip addresses.  Not sure about the bios settings, but the laptop screen was on when the MR18 Edit had to reconnect.
Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 13, 2019, 02:36:18 am
The Airport is handing out the ip addresses.  Not sure about the bios settings, but the laptop screen was on when the MR18 Edit had to reconnect.

I suggest you read our network primer.  The AE answers requests for addresses via a protocol called DHCP.  Dynamic Host Control Protocol.

Back to my point.  Screen is not relevent network sleep mode may have engaged.  You must check the BIOS, device software and Windows settings.

Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: Rory Buszka on September 13, 2019, 09:39:39 am

One last thing, the Airport is acting as a wireless bridge.  No routing is done at all.  You have one network, a routers job is to forward packets between networks.


This is technically incorrect. The router's job, most simply, is to assign IP addresses and then forward packets to the outputs that have those addresses connected. You need exactly one router on a network, even if it is isolated from the rest of the world. If you have two computers then you need a router between them. (Yes, it is possible to configure a peer to peer network over a crossover LAN cable, but it would be pedantic to mention that since it's not relevant to the situation.)

Modern routers have much more to do, like wireless protocols, port forwarding, security, yada yada.

I got a certification in this stuff about 19 years ago while I was still in high school so it's possible things have moved on but the basics of how TCP/IP networks work haven't changed.
Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: David Allred on September 13, 2019, 10:01:13 am
I suggest you read our network primer.  The AE answers requests for addresses via a protocol called DHCP.  Dynamic Host Control Protocol.

Back to my point.  Screen is not relevent network sleep mode may have engaged.  You must check the BIOS, device software and Windows settings.

Read the prime thread.  Is this vvv what you are talking about?
https://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/stop-network-adapter-from-getting-disabled-in-windows-7/

Searched around for bios network settings.   Found comments about "S1 - S3", but no info about where those are in bios, or even what they do... other than that they are levels.  I'm working with a Dell Latitude if that helps.
Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 13, 2019, 01:13:12 pm
This is technically incorrect. The router's job, most simply, is to assign IP addresses and then forward packets to the outputs that have those addresses connected. You need exactly one router on a network, even if it is isolated from the rest of the world. If you have two computers then you need a router between them. (Yes, it is possible to configure a peer to peer network over a crossover LAN cable, but it would be pedantic to mention that since it's not relevant to the situation.)

Modern routers have much more to do, like wireless protocols, port forwarding, security, yada yada.

I got a certification in this stuff about 19 years ago while I was still in high school so it's possible things have moved on but the basics of how TCP/IP networks work haven't changed.

Scott is well aware, he founded and owned an ISP and paging/cellular company.  If you guys want to play "show me yours and I'll show you mine" with certifications it's probably best done behind closed doors. ::)

The Consumer term "router" is just that, for consumers and not industrial or IT use.  I've posted in these and other forums about the semantics of it all and usually find all I've accomplished is pissing off people who are positive they're right because the product box from Best Buy or Staples says "router" on it.
Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: Jason Joseph on September 13, 2019, 02:06:21 pm
Read the prime thread.  Is this vvv what you are talking about?
https://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/stop-network-adapter-from-getting-disabled-in-windows-7/

Searched around for bios network settings.   Found comments about "S1 - S3", but no info about where those are in bios, or even what they do... other than that they are levels.  I'm working with a Dell Latitude if that helps.

Control Panel -> Power Options -> Change Plan Settings (Most likely set to balanced) -> Advanced Settings (look for wireless adapter or network settings and ensure your network card isnt set to sleep to save power)

Another way is to use the performance profile that will force your laptop to use high power resources by default..
Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: Rob Spence on September 13, 2019, 09:45:48 pm
This is technically incorrect. The router's job, most simply, is to assign IP addresses and then forward packets to the outputs that have those addresses connected. You need exactly one router on a network, even if it is isolated from the rest of the world. If you have two computers then you need a router between them. (Yes, it is possible to configure a peer to peer network over a crossover LAN cable, but it would be pedantic to mention that since it's not relevant to the situation.)

Modern routers have much more to do, like wireless protocols, port forwarding, security, yada yada.

I got a certification in this stuff about 19 years ago while I was still in high school so it's possible things have moved on but the basics of how TCP/IP networks work haven't changed.

I have seen Apple devices have a bridge setting. He may be right.
Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: Geert Friedhof on September 13, 2019, 10:12:59 pm
This is technically incorrect. The router's job, most simply, is to assign IP addresses and then forward packets to the outputs that have those addresses connected. You need exactly one router on a network, even if it is isolated from the rest of the world. If you have two computers then you need a router between them. (Yes, it is possible to configure a peer to peer network over a crossover LAN cable, but it would be pedantic to mention that since it's not relevant to the situation.)

Modern routers have much more to do, like wireless protocols, port forwarding, security, yada yada.

I got a certification in this stuff about 19 years ago while I was still in high school so it's possible things have moved on but the basics of how TCP/IP networks work haven't changed.

You're mistaken. Get another certificate.
Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: Russell Ault on September 13, 2019, 11:35:19 pm
This is technically incorrect. The router's job, most simply, is to assign IP addresses and then forward packets to the outputs that have those addresses connected. You need exactly one router on a network, even if it is isolated from the rest of the world. If you have two computers then you need a router between them. (Yes, it is possible to configure a peer to peer network over a crossover LAN cable, but it would be pedantic to mention that since it's not relevant to the situation.)

Before Scott comes back I'd suggest you take another look at the OSI model. You need zero or more routers on a network depending on what you are trying to achieve. Moving data between computers on Ethernet networks is controlled at the layer 2 level and technically requires nothing more than a hub (although a switch is greatly preferable). Routers are only required to move data between network segments, not within them, and if your network only has one segment (e.g. 90%+ of show networks without Internet access) then a router is optional.

-Russ
Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 14, 2019, 12:39:40 am

I have no clue who you got your network certification from but I hope either you didn't pay much or your didn't pay attention.

Not one thing but every single point in this post is totally incorrect.  Beyond incorrect, it's a fabrication in your mind of how networks operate.

This is technically incorrect. The router's job, most simply, is to assign IP addresses

Incorrect, DHCP servers listen for broadcast messages and send back an IP assignment to the requestor.  A router may or may not have a DHCP service built in for convenience but it has nothing to do with routing.

Quote
and then forward packets to the outputs that have those addresses connected.

Incorrect,  a router accepts packets on an interface, which is assigned an IP address, which is usually, but not necessarily, the default gateway for the given network the interface is assigned to.  The router then looks at it's routing table and forward that packet out another interface on the router.

Quote
You need exactly one router on a network, even if it is isolated from the rest of the world. If you have two computers then you need a router between them. (Yes, it is possible to configure a peer to peer network over a crossover LAN cable, but it would be pedantic to mention that since it's not relevant to the situation.)

This is a total swing and a miss.  First off you are conflating routing (layer 3 tcp/IP) with switching (which isn't even required) which is layer 2.

A network switch contains a table of MAC addresses attached to each port and forwards Ethernet frames from one port to another based on the MAC address.  A switch has absolutely no concept of what an IP address is.

Crossover cables are not needed anymore.  Any network chipset built in the last decade or more has auto MDI/MDI-X switching.  You can connect two computers with an Ethernet cable and the interfaces will come up. 

Quote
Modern routers have much more to do, like wireless protocols, port forwarding, security, yada yada.

port forwarding and access lists have been around since Cisco cranked out IOS 9.1 in 1991 !  I think you are referring to firewall features, which really have nothing to do with IP routing either but are included in most modern appliances.  Today's firewalls pull threat fingerprints from the cloud, perform stateful packet inspection and host of other security functions. 

"wireless protocols" not sure what you mean here either.  Some network appliances have a wireless access point built in.  Wifi is a layer 2 protocol and again, has nothing to do with routing or IP.

Many people use the term "router" to refer to a network appliance that typically contains an IP router with at least two interfaces (LAN and WAN), a network switch, a DHCP server and basic firewall features.  So called "wireless routers" add the access point.  There are many more appliances that are basically egg laying milk pigs.

Quote

I got a certification in this stuff about 19 years ago while I was still in high school so it's possible things have moved on but the basics of how TCP/IP networks work haven't changed.

I would not normally be so harsh but you just had to brag that you had a CCNA.  I was a Cisco Network Academy instructor, helping shape skulls full of mush into network technicians.  I taught for 2 years then was a sub for a few more.  After that I came to the stark realization that teaching is an amazing skill and one I do not possess.  I do however test well and passed my CCIE Carrier on the 1st run.  I failed the practical however due to very poor time management.


Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: Geert Friedhof on September 14, 2019, 06:21:50 am
You use an USB network dongle?

Try this: https://www.windmill.co.uk/usb.html
Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: David Allred on September 16, 2019, 09:58:12 am

Let get back to what's important... me  ;D ;D ;D.
So I changed all the power settings in windows and bios, and the network section as noted above.  This made no difference with the M-Air Edit losing connection.
I should add that I have not been connecting to the network via wifi during this trial.

I have tried many different things and will note them and the results below.
LAN only:
Laptop 1 - full network - Edit loses connection after time (re-connects manually), Venu360 app stays connected, Belkin Network to USB to serial DR260 software has C++ runtime errors after time.
Laptop 1 - Direct to MR18 (no network) - Stayed connected longer, but still lost connection.
Laptop 2 - Full network - Maintained connection (Edit only).
---

LAN & WIFI:
Laptop 1 - full network - No errors or loss of connection.
---

LAN only:
Laptop 1 & Laptop 2 - Full network - Both running Edit software, L1 running 360 & 260 softwares also - No disconnects or errors over night.


Comments:
Prior to adding the 2nd switch and laptop 2, I always connected to WIFI also.  So this is not necessarily a new problem.
MR18 Edit & adaptor/software for DR260 have issues running LAN only (laptop 1).
Venu360 software has no issues LAN only (laptop 1).
MR18 Edit runs fine on LAN only (laptop 2).
All runs fine if connected WIFI also (laptop 1).
All runs fine if Edit is running on both laptops and no WIFI. 


Edit versions are the same on l1 & l2.  Un-install / re-install Edit on laptop 1?


Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: Geert Friedhof on September 18, 2019, 06:30:28 am
Usually it is not a good idea to have 2 network connections to the same network, i.e. Wlan and lan when troubleshooting.

Check the metric of the connections. Open a command window, and type: netstat -rn | more

Look for the metric values. There should be 2 of them. One for each connection. The connection with the lowest value will be used for the network. Let us know the values.

Also for the troubled laptop
- os
- lan driver make/type, version, date


Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: David Allred on September 18, 2019, 09:08:15 am
Usually it is not a good idea to have 2 network connections to the same network, i.e. Wlan and lan when troubleshooting.

Check the metric of the connections. Open a command window, and type: netstat -rn | more

Look for the metric values. There should be 2 of them. One for each connection. The connection with the lowest value will be used for the network. Let us know the values.

Also for the troubled laptop
- os
- lan driver make/type, version, date

Win7 home prem  sp1
Intel 82567LM Gigabit network connection
V- 10.1.9.0
4/7/10

See the image to get the metrics info you need from netstat.
Thanks
Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: Rob Spence on September 18, 2019, 04:11:42 pm
Do you have the WIFI on the computer turned on?
Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: David Allred on September 18, 2019, 04:29:24 pm
Do you have the WIFI on the computer turned on?

Yes, currently, but see post #15.
Clarify that the wifi on the computer is always on, but wifi on & off in #15 refers to connected to the this audio network vs my homes wifi internet.
Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: Geert Friedhof on September 19, 2019, 05:03:50 am
Looks like you didn't connect to the lan.

Anyways. We will do this again later.

First install the latest driver from intel
https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/18713/Ethernet-Intel-Network-Adapter-Driver-for-Windows-7-?product=32208

You need either the 32 bit or the 64 bit. You can find out by looking at the system info.

Test and let us know.

Title: Re: Network config - questions
Post by: David Allred on September 20, 2019, 08:51:22 am
Looks like you didn't connect to the lan.

Anyways. We will do this again later.

First install the latest driver from intel
https://downloadcenter.intel.com/download/18713/Ethernet-Intel-Network-Adapter-Driver-for-Windows-7-?product=32208

You need either the 32 bit or the 64 bit. You can find out by looking at the system info.

Test and let us know.

OK. Here is the new info. (edited for higher res pic)

Updated to driver ver - 10.1.17.0
Date - 10/20/11

Netstat info in pic.

Performance:  LAN only (wifi not connected to this network).... ran over night without the MR-Edit losing connection to the MR18.  So far, so good.

During all this time the Belkin network-USB hub ate a bad burrito and gave up the ghost.  It stopped letting the DR260 "port" connect, then the entire hub disappeared.  This happened before the driver change and continues after the update.  Instead of buying another USB hub I will go old school and use a channel (recently made available by going mono for playback) on my 4-chan mix to stage snake for the serial connection.

Next tests, if this continues well, is to revert to earlier sleep and screen settings.

If this is the end, thanks all... particularly Geert ;) for finding the needle in the haystack.