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Title: Mid sized system
Post by: W. Mark Hellinger on August 08, 2019, 10:49:50 am
I'm in the market for a new front of house speaker system.  I'm thinking JBL VRX932LAP / VRX918SP.  In the past couple of years I've picked up "quite a few" accounts for annual events:  small county fairs, town festivals, and similar in the area.  I'm dealing with mostly local & regional acts, with the occasional national level act (who understands (eventually) they're playing for a small community event in "fly-over country".  Audience size is generally functionally "a couple hundred" - 1000 (max).  I figure a 932 system is widely known/acceptable as "ok"/suitable for the application, easy two-person set-up, somewhat scale-able, fairly versatile, good cost/benefit ratio, etc...  My question is there an obvious better choice, or is the 932 system a-ok/fine?  Cost effective a-ok/fine is all that's needed.  I figure on initially purchasing 8ea. 932's and 4ea. 918's.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Nathan Riddle on August 08, 2019, 11:00:54 am
I'm in the market for a new front of house speaker system.  I'm thinking JBL VRX932LAP / VRX918SP.  In the past couple of years I've picked up "quite a few" accounts for annual events:  small county fairs, town festivals, and similar in the area.  I'm dealing with mostly local & regional acts, with the occasional national level act (who understands (eventually) they're playing for a small community event in "fly-over country".  Audience size is generally functionally "a couple hundred" - 1000 (max).  I figure a 932 system is widely known/acceptable as "ok"/suitable for the application, easy two-person set-up, somewhat scale-able, fairly versatile, good cost/benefit ratio, etc...  My question is there an obvious better choice, or is the 932 system a-ok/fine?  Cost effective a-ok/fine is all that's needed.  I figure on initially purchasing 8ea. 932's and 4ea. 918's.

Danley SM80 & TH118 & DNA will easily beat that in sound quality, same SPL, close in price.

The only thing is rider acceptance and people hearing with their eyes.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Taylor Hall on August 08, 2019, 11:09:19 am
For that price point you could also look at the RCF HDL10, EAW RSX208L, various Nexo offerings, etc etc, if you're dead set on arrays. Otherwise like Nathan said, there are several point source options that would perform equally well like Danley, RCF, Fulcrum and JTR.

The VRX line is generally put in the "If I have to mix on it, so be it" category around here, and if you're using the passive versions then by god you had better be using amps/processing capable of utilizing the latest factory presets and not futz with them. Period. Additionally, the single-angle nature of the cabinets makes them less versatile in deployment options (and proper coverage) where a cabinet with a full range of angles would be able to adapt to near-endless use cases.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Mal Brown on August 08, 2019, 11:26:07 am
One other small consideration...  flying a system has a real impact on the cos of liability insurance. Looks cool...  comes at a price. In my neck of the woods, the Genie lift crowd is mostly not disclosing that to their carrier or they donít  have one...

I live in a high wind environment for most of the year and ground stacking is the only way to ...ah, fly here. (the genie lift crowd here are crazy in my humble opinion)

We did around 1500 folks last Saturday.  Subs under bakers scaffold (which I really need to paint black) tops above at 4 feet.  Tops are 40x60, 3 per side, deisgned to splay array.  It sounds like your gigs and mine are quite similar.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: W. Mark Hellinger on August 08, 2019, 02:08:56 pm
One other small consideration...  flying a system has a real impact on the cos of liability insurance. Looks cool...  comes at a price. In my neck of the woods, the Genie lift crowd is mostly not disclosing that to their carrier or they donít  have one...

I live in a high wind environment for most of the year and ground stacking is the only way to ...ah, fly here. (the genie lift crowd here are crazy in my humble opinion)

We did around 1500 folks last Saturday.  Subs under bakers scaffold (which I really need to paint black) tops above at 4 feet.  Tops are 40x60, 3 per side, deisgned to splay array.  It sounds like your gigs and mine are quite similar.
I envision we'll generally be ground stacking... 2 - 3 mid-highs (932's) per side.  There will be "some" (a few) events were a load bearing roof/truss may be available where flying may be an option, but I'm not going to count on it.

Most of the events we're picking up are from where a local college left-off (as the school's new administration has seemingly decided to discontinue the school's long-standing off-campus/regional entertainment business/"public service").  The college has been using a 932/918 system for a number of years, and it's been reportedly well received as "fine" (depending on which student was at the board) according to the various event organizers we've been dealing with.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: W. Mark Hellinger on August 08, 2019, 02:16:20 pm

The VRX line is generally put in the "If I have to mix on it, so be it" category around here, and if you're using the passive versions then by god you had better be using amps/processing capable of utilizing the latest factory presets and not futz with them. Period.
I figure on going with the active models:  VRX932LAP & VRX918SP, which if I understand correctly comes with on-board DSP... which is set by the factory... can't be noodled with... just plug and play and what it is, is what it is.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Dave Pluke on August 08, 2019, 04:24:32 pm
The VRX line is generally put in the "If I have to mix on it, so be it" category around here, and if you're using the passive versions then by god you had better be using amps/processing capable of utilizing the latest factory presets and not futz with them. Period. Additionally, the single-angle nature of the cabinets makes them less versatile in deployment options (and proper coverage) where a cabinet with a full range of angles would be able to adapt to near-endless use cases.

I agree.

As I recall, I've only heard one VRX932 system that left me saying; "Hey, that sounded pretty good!".  It was in a Church Installation and credit to the folks who installed it and were running it.

More often than not, they've sounded harsh to me. Surprised the heck out of me when the "new Turbosound" copy came out - but the wisdom of that whole thing is another conversation.

I would take a serious look at RCF in the same general price range. Unless there are local market conditions that favor the VRX.

Dave


Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Scott Holtzman on August 08, 2019, 04:26:35 pm
I envision we'll generally be ground stacking... 2 - 3 mid-highs (932's) per side.  There will be "some" (a few) events were a load bearing roof/truss may be available where flying may be an option, but I'm not going to count on it.

Most of the events we're picking up are from where a local college left-off (as the school's new administration has seemingly decided to discontinue the school's long-standing off-campus/regional entertainment business/"public service").  The college has been using a 932/918 system for a number of years, and it's been reportedly well received as "fine" (depending on which student was at the board) according to the various event organizers we've been dealing with.

Fine is what they are on there best day.

Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: drew gandy on August 08, 2019, 09:28:01 pm
The college has been using a 932/918 system for a number of years,

Hi Mark!  It's good to see your name on here again. 

Are they perchance selling this system since they will now have no need for it? 
If this system is available used for a very good price then it might be a good move, particularly since you know it meets the expectations.  But I would suggest that you look for a different brand/model if you're planning to buy new.  Not only are most of us underwhelmed by it acoustically, but it's kind of long in the tooth now (as much as I hate to realize how many years have passed - I just blinked and now it's 10 years later!). 

Lastly, I generally wouldn't recommend a vertically articulated array if the majority of your gigs are ground stack.  For the same kind of money I think you could get a pair of Danley SH96HO and a nice amp.  Although it's a very different form factor, it should be pretty easy to hand truck into position on a typical outdoor stage.   And it's in another league as far as sound quality, not to mention being able to handle larger crowds when necessary. 

Now, if you need a SOS system, then that's a different story.   
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Dave Garoutte on August 08, 2019, 10:51:07 pm
Love my new SM80 / TH118 rig.
Looks are deceiving.  Punchy and articulate, but plenty loud.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Jeffrey Knorr - CobraSound.com on August 09, 2019, 10:54:19 am
I'm in the market for a new front of house speaker system.  I'm thinking JBL VRX932LAP / VRX918SP.  In the past couple of years I've picked up "quite a few" accounts for annual events:  small county fairs, town festivals, and similar in the area.  I'm dealing with mostly local & regional acts, with the occasional national level act (who understands (eventually) they're playing for a small community event in "fly-over country".  Audience size is generally functionally "a couple hundred" - 1000 (max).  I figure a 932 system is widely known/acceptable as "ok"/suitable for the application, easy two-person set-up, somewhat scale-able, fairly versatile, good cost/benefit ratio, etc...  My question is there an obvious better choice, or is the 932 system a-ok/fine?  Cost effective a-ok/fine is all that's needed.  I figure on initially purchasing 8ea. 932's and 4ea. 918's.

Hi Mark!

Great to see you back on the Forum!  I agree with everything said so far in this thread.  The VRX boxes are pretty harsh to deal with--also, deploying 4/side would become a bit cumbersome without flying.  The DSL SM80, SH46, SH96 boxes are really good for these types of events.  I would also consider Fulcrum FA22AC and JTR 3TX.  One final contender to throw in the mix, the RCF TTL6A.  I have a customer that uses the RCF's flown from lifts with excellent results.  The SM80, 3TX, and FA22AC could all easily be put on a heavy duty crank stand and elevated to 10+ feet--this makes deployment SUPER easy.  I labored for years dealing with stacking speakers on scaffold or flying speakers from scaffold--it's a tremendous amount of work for these type of events. 

Please let me know if I can help further.

Thank you,

Jeff

Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: W. Mark Hellinger on August 09, 2019, 02:40:59 pm
Hi Mark!

Great to see you back on the Forum!  I agree with everything said so far in this thread.  The VRX boxes are pretty harsh to deal with--also, deploying 4/side would become a bit cumbersome without flying.  The DSL SM80, SH46, SH96 boxes are really good for these types of events.  I would also consider Fulcrum FA22AC and JTR 3TX.  One final contender to throw in the mix, the RCF TTL6A.  I have a customer that uses the RCF's flown from lifts with excellent results.  The SM80, 3TX, and FA22AC could all easily be put on a heavy duty crank stand and elevated to 10+ feet--this makes deployment SUPER easy.  I labored for years dealing with stacking speakers on scaffold or flying speakers from scaffold--it's a tremendous amount of work for these type of events. 

Please let me know if I can help further.

Thank you,

Jeff
Thanks Jeff for the specific recommendations.  You folks have me reconsidering.  I like the 932's for the seeming ease of use and no-brainer (employee friendly) operation, as well as cost, availability, commonality & general acceptance, etc...  I guess most everything is a compromise solution... and the only seeming down-side to the 932's is compromised performance.  (everything is a-ok, fine except for "that")

What we currently have and have been using for about 20 years works fine... but it's a big, heavy, sledgehammer that requires a crew of more than 2, and definitely a crew of more than 1... which is becoming the single biggest factor.  Actually "labor" is the single biggest factor.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Don T. Williams on August 09, 2019, 04:09:29 pm
From an audio quality stand-point, and from a practical set-up stand point, I think almost all the suggested alternatives are a better choice than the VRX.  A few of these are at the limits of a one-man set up.  I've been really impressed with the RCF TTL6, but at 117 lbs. you might need help. One other contender to consider would be 2 per side of the DB Technologies IG3 or IG4 in their inverted stacked & coupled configuration.  Very much a one man carry/lift and reasonably priced.  Like others, I don't think I've ever heard a VRX 932 system that I liked and I'm surprised it is generally accepted (or tolerated).
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: gordonmcgregor on August 09, 2019, 05:15:09 pm
I can second the dbTech IG3s we've got 4 and they are impressive for their size and cost, db Tech also sell a single 18 sub model DVA1518 which matches these very well.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Caleb Dueck on August 09, 2019, 07:40:25 pm
Another option I would demo is TW Audio T24N tops, Danley TH118XL subs, and Powersoft DSP amps.  Single person setup and can cover a surprisingly large area.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: W. Mark Hellinger on August 09, 2019, 08:02:35 pm
Another option I would demo is TW Audio T24N tops, Danley TH118XL subs, and Powersoft DSP amps.  Single person setup and can cover a surprisingly large area.
Demo-ing is rather out of the realistic realm of possibilities... short of going to Namm or some such thing.  The good-ole LAB (here) is likely as close as I'll get to demo-ing.  "Some" consider where I live is in the middle of nowhere... which... depending on one's perspective is arguably fairly close to the mark (we can see the middle of nowhere from our front porch).
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on August 09, 2019, 08:07:37 pm
A few have chimed in so I will to. I have 2 of the DB Ingenia IG4T's and 2 subs. Light, great sound and I've done the 300 to 350 people shows with ease. Doubled up with enough subs I've heard nothing but good reviews on them. Its worth taking a good look at them.

Douglas R. Allen
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: John Rendell on August 09, 2019, 10:40:25 pm
I owned 6 VRX932 LAPS and 8 VRX918 LAPS. I bought it with my eyes and the JBL name as well as the ability to cross rent them with another provider.

Could not wait to get rid of them.

If I get another PA it will be Danley.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: John Schalk on August 10, 2019, 08:57:43 am
I'll throw in my $0.02 which is to second several of the points that have already been made.  Firstly, if you're not going to be flying the speakers, I can't see any reason to choose VRX when there are so many better sounding ground stack or pole mountable options available today.  Second, VRX is 10+ year old design, so unless you're getting a deal on a used system, I think you should look at some newer products.  Third, while I don't own any of the dbTech Ingenia speakers, I've spent some time modeling the response in Ease Focus and I'd encourage you to look at a couple of the YouTube videos that demonstrate how well they are designed for stacking and coupling.  Light enough for one person too.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Kemper Watson on August 10, 2019, 01:05:39 pm
Danley SM80 & TH118 & DNA will easily beat that in sound quality, same SPL, close in price.

The only thing is rider acceptance and people hearing with their eyes.

This system will easily do what you need.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Lee Douglas on August 10, 2019, 01:35:53 pm
Is crossing renting a concern? 
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: W. Mark Hellinger on August 10, 2019, 03:07:23 pm
Is crossing renting a concern?
no... not likely... or not likely enough to be any sort of consideration.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Steve Garris on August 10, 2019, 03:12:38 pm
Just my 2 cents... I'm currently running a small SRX800 powered SOS rig, and my summer concert series gets up to 500-600 people. It's not concert levels, but everyone loves it.

If and when I do a PA upgrade I'm seriously looking at the JTR option - 3TX tops with 60x90 horns and the Orbit Shifters. The tops are 50 lbs. I've never heard the system but like you, I'd be relying on this forum for the recommendation. If not, I plan on just doubling my subs from (2) 18's to (4) 18's and calling it done.

One thing I've learned from this forum is there's not a lot of love for the VRX!
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: W. Mark Hellinger on August 12, 2019, 12:33:08 am
You folks have certainly given me some food for thought.  With that I'm doing a lot of reconsidering and research.  It seems at this time a point source system seems the way to go to yield the results that would justify upgrading from what I'm currently running.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Nathan Riddle on August 12, 2019, 02:40:00 pm
You folks have certainly given me some food for thought.  With that I'm doing a lot of reconsidering and research.  It seems at this time a point source system seems the way to go to yield the results that would justify upgrading from what I'm currently running.

Checkout the Danley FB group 'DSLUG' for some first-hand comparisons to vrx and big shows with SM80 while you're doing your research. Also a fun community :)
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Lance Hallmark on August 14, 2019, 05:02:05 pm
I have three small-medium sized systems that I feel can cover most of the shows you are talking about:
4 Danley TH-118, 2 SH-69, 1 DNA20k
2 JTR Orbit Shifters, 2 Noesis 3TX, Crown XTI600s, Powersoft K10
2 Yamaha DSR112, 4 Yorkville LS801p
* I have used the Noesis 3TX with 8 Yorkville Subs and they were still only running about 75%
* The Yamaha tops would be good for 2-300
* Would need additional subs for larger/louder EDM/Bass shows. I will be adding more Danley/JTR
   subs at some point.

All three sound very clear with good bass. (The Yorkvilles don't go as low but are strong 60-90 hz.) The Danley & JTR rigs are a level above the Yamaha/Yorkville system.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: W. Mark Hellinger on September 13, 2019, 11:09:02 am
An update:  So-far I've resigned myself to continuing (I guess I'll just stay married) with what I have for my small "band in a van" system... which is two stacks (or four stacks) of JBL SRX712M's over EAW SB-330 subs for FOH and 4ea. 712M's for monitors... all Peavey IPR powered.  For now anyway.  The system sounds ok... it's certainly heads above anything else commonly used in the area for the type of application.  It's very reliable (never an embarrassment out in public), versatile, sets-up and packs-up really quick and easy, low AC power requirement, there's minimal fussing about and it works well with baby sitters as well as has gotten to be "comfortable fit", and is cheap to keep.

However: The Nexo PS10-R2 & LS600 system has caught my eye.  It's been years since I've heard a Nexo system... I think it was a Nexo Alpha system, but I recall being really impressed with the punch and clarity for the seeming size.  The draw-backs are: The lack of availability in my area, the dependency, weight, and such involved with the processors or dedicated NXAPM's, and the price is some consideration.

I had the rare opportunity (via a guest bass player) to mix my little system over the Labor Day Weekend's performances, and got it sounding "arguably good".

So I don't know.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Renard Hurtado on September 13, 2019, 08:15:25 pm
I have three small-medium sized systems that I feel can cover most of the shows you are talking about:
4 Danley TH-118, 2 SH-69, 1 DNA20k
2 JTR Orbit Shifters, 2 Noesis 3TX, Crown XTI600s, Powersoft K10
2 Yamaha DSR112, 4 Yorkville LS801p
* I have used the Noesis 3TX with 8 Yorkville Subs and they were still only running about 75%
* The Yamaha tops would be good for 2-300
* Would need additional subs for larger/louder EDM/Bass shows. I will be adding more Danley/JTR
   subs at some point.

All three sound very clear with good bass. (The Yorkvilles don't go as low but are strong 60-90 hz.) The Danley & JTR rigs are a level above the Yamaha/Yorkville system.


I have read about the 3TX a lot on this forum. The setup you mentionedusing 8 L800 subs is almost like the setup I have been using during Carnival parades.

I use four pogee 3x3 tops and 8 L800 powered subs, this to cover 1000 people, using 4 3T instead of the ( Heavy Apogee 3X3, what will I ack or not ( besides weight) ?

In other wordscan I replace 4 Apogee 3x3 with 4 3Tx
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 13, 2019, 08:37:40 pm
An update:  So-far I've resigned myself to continuing (I guess I'll just stay married) with what I have for my small "band in a van" system... which is two stacks (or four stacks) of JBL SRX712M's over EAW SB-330 subs for FOH and 4ea. 712M's for monitors... all Peavey IPR powered.  For now anyway.  The system sounds ok... it's certainly heads above anything else commonly used in the area for the type of application.  It's very reliable (never an embarrassment out in public), versatile, sets-up and packs-up really quick and easy, low AC power requirement, there's minimal fussing about and it works well with baby sitters as well as has gotten to be "comfortable fit", and is cheap to keep.

However: The Nexo PS10-R2 & LS600 system has caught my eye.  It's been years since I've heard a Nexo system... I think it was a Nexo Alpha system, but I recall being really impressed with the punch and clarity for the seeming size.  The draw-backs are: The lack of availability in my area, the dependency, weight, and such involved with the processors or dedicated NXAPM's, and the price is some consideration.

I had the rare opportunity (via a guest bass player) to mix my little system over the Labor Day Weekend's performances, and got it sounding "arguably good".

So I don't know.

If most of the gigs you do have decent power dump those IPR7.5's and,get Lab Gruppen fp6400.  You will think you got new subs.  I tried so hard to like the IPR's they suck.
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: John Halliburton on September 14, 2019, 10:44:04 am
As others have said, a pair of SM80(or SM80m for more versatility and a bit more low end if using solo on stands) and a pair of TH118(or two pair for a more ideal match up) is a surprisingly impressive small rig.

Add a pair of Duratruss crank stands, some speaker tilters, and go!

I was just at an outdoor gig with mine, acoustic music, bit of a breeze, but was barely ticking over for a few hundred folks as far as 200' out and had no trouble hitting a comfortable sound level, and the clarity held up really well.  At one point, I had to crank a track off a smart phone for a dressage demonstration where the riding area's closest distance was 75' away from my house left speaker.  No problem with anyone hearing that...

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Dustin Campbell on September 16, 2019, 02:57:50 pm
Hi Mark!

Great to see you back on the Forum!  I agree with everything said so far in this thread.  The VRX boxes are pretty harsh to deal with--also, deploying 4/side would become a bit cumbersome without flying.  The DSL SM80, SH46, SH96 boxes are really good for these types of events.  I would also consider Fulcrum FA22AC and JTR 3TX.  One final contender to throw in the mix, the RCF TTL6A.  I have a customer that uses the RCF's flown from lifts with excellent results.  The SM80, 3TX, and FA22AC could all easily be put on a heavy duty crank stand and elevated to 10+ feet--this makes deployment SUPER easy.  I labored for years dealing with stacking speakers on scaffold or flying speakers from scaffold--it's a tremendous amount of work for these type of events. 

Please let me know if I can help further.

Thank you,

Jeff

Those RCF-TTL6A's look awesome! They are a contender for my next upgrade
Title: Re: Mid sized system
Post by: Jeffrey Knorr - CobraSound.com on September 17, 2019, 10:12:10 am
Those RCF-TTL6A's look awesome! They are a contender for my next upgrade

Hi Dustin,

My Customer has been extremely happy with his TTL6A purchase so far.  Please let me know if you have any questions on them!

Thank you,

Jeff