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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Brian Adams on July 23, 2019, 03:11:21 pm

Title: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: Brian Adams on July 23, 2019, 03:11:21 pm
I just picked up some single phase Prostar hoists and I'm considering connector options for them. These are the only single phase motors in my inventory, or in the inventory of any company I know in the area, and I got them so I'd have motors I could use in places you normally can't.

I'm leaning towards using Neutrik True1 connectors for power rather than twistlocks, due to their smaller size, weather resistance, and the fact that they actually lock. I'm in the process of moving my stage power over to True1 quads, so it would be consistent with that cabling. If I go the True1 route, I'll probably go XLR for control.

Can anyone think of a reason I shouldn't do this? I don't have a whole lot of experience with True1 connectors yet, but they seem like they'll be durable. And it seems like it would be easy enough to have a controller built using those connectors as well, or to modify an existing one.
Title: Re: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: Taylor Hall on July 23, 2019, 03:21:26 pm
It really comes down to whether the motor's power requirements fall within the specs of the powercon connector (250V 20A) and that the cable being used will fit through the strain relief. The latter will probably be the main concern as people have run into that issue a lot in the past with beefier cables used in the speakon versions.
Title: Re: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: Rob Spence on July 23, 2019, 03:42:57 pm
If it were me, I would not use 3 pin XLRs for motor control. Perhaps 4 pin?

I get a bad feeling thinking about some worker plugging a mixer input or output into a motor.
Title: Re: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: Brian Adams on July 23, 2019, 05:12:27 pm
If it were me, I would not use 3 pin XLRs for motor control. Perhaps 4 pin?

I get a bad feeling thinking about some worker plugging a mixer input or output into a motor.

Thanks Rob, that's a fair point. I'm not sure exactly what that would do to the motor or the equipment, but it definitely wouldn't be good. 4 pin XLR is rated for 10A, 5 and 6 are 7.5A, and 7 pin is 5A. I think any of them would handle the control voltage and current, which is really low. Good idea!

Taylor, the motors spec a 2.7A draw at full load, so any normal power connector should handle the current.
Title: Re: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: Weogo Reed on July 23, 2019, 08:05:12 pm
Hi Brian,

We recently got an electrical car.
I bought an EVSE(charging management device) that is dual voltage  -  120V or 240V.  OpenEVSE.com
I terminated it with TrueOne.  The 240V socket at home is TrueOne, and I have a 120V Edison~TrueOne adapter cable for use at friends homes.
Am quite happy with it. 

In addition to cable OD, another possible fly in the ointment is the possibility of plugging a 120V-only device in to a 240V TrueOne socket. 
Label connections well, meter before plugging in. 

Thanks and good health,  Weogo
Title: Re: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: Rob Spence on July 23, 2019, 10:04:50 pm
Thanks Rob, that's a fair point. I'm not sure exactly what that would do to the motor or the equipment, but it definitely wouldn't be good. 4 pin XLR is rated for 10A, 5 and 6 are 7.5A, and 7 pin is 5A. I think any of them would handle the control voltage and current, which is really low. Good idea!

Taylor, the motors spec a 2.7A draw at full load, so any normal power connector should handle the current.

I donít expect the sound gear to hurt the motor but I am sure connecting the motor control to a mixer would not be good.
Title: Re: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: Mark Cadwallader on July 23, 2019, 10:10:39 pm
Although Brian didn't specify, because he is making stage power quad boxes with True 1, I assumed he had a 120 volt system.
Title: Re: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: Russell Ault on July 24, 2019, 01:15:43 am
Although Brian didn't specify, because he is making stage power quad boxes with True 1, I assumed he had a 120 volt system.

The fear would be that some day on some cross-rental you'd find a burnt-out motor plugged into a True1 with 208V on it. Assuming the motors are only 120V, the advantage of using an L5 connector is that the chances of it seeing the wrong voltage are smaller.

-Russ
Title: Re: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: Josh Rawls on July 28, 2019, 12:48:53 pm
A company I work for uses NL-8 connectors. Works great!

At the motor you have both power and control going into a NL-8. At the controller side you have a NL-8 breakout to power and control. Use couplers to join the NL-8 run to each end.

Just one cable to run, and cables you likely have on hand anyways.
Title: Re: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 28, 2019, 01:07:43 pm
A company I work for uses NL-8 connectors. Works great!

At the motor you have both power and control going into a NL-8. At the controller side you have a NL-8 breakout to power and control. Use couplers to join the NL-8 run to each end.

Just one cable to run, and cables you likely have on hand anyways.

It's actually a Code-violating idea.  SpeakON connnectors are not Listed for this use.  And if using regular speaker cable, it's certainly not to Code.
Title: Re: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: Craig Hauber on July 28, 2019, 01:58:28 pm
Thanks Rob, that's a fair point. I'm not sure exactly what that would do to the motor or the equipment, but it definitely wouldn't be good. 4 pin XLR is rated for 10A, 5 and 6 are 7.5A, and 7 pin is 5A. I think any of them would handle the control voltage and current, which is really low. Good idea!

Taylor, the motors spec a 2.7A draw at full load, so any normal power connector should handle the current.

I haven't been inside any of these newer motors, but I do remember the control voltage for a CM lodestar was essentially line voltage -and if anything went wrong, had enough current to heat up and melt the low voltage lines that a client was using. 
I remember having to service that rig and ended up just putting it back to stock 4-pin twist lock using 14-4 S-cable.  I never liked the idea of line voltage in an xlr connector anyways.
The mini Socapex or Veam type connectors were the way to go if you wanted power and control all in one line.  I don't know if I would use NL-8 either, they aren't rated for non-speaker loading and one good pull under full load may arc and burn those delicate little contact fingers instantly.
Title: Re: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: John Sulek on July 28, 2019, 02:39:37 pm
A company I work for uses NL-8 connectors. Works great!

At the motor you have both power and control going into a NL-8. At the controller side you have a NL-8 breakout to power and control. Use couplers to join the NL-8 run to each end.

Just one cable to run, and cables you likely have on hand anyways.

Aside from the code issues which are quite valid....there is a very good reason that most production houses make the motor cables a different connector than speaker or signal distribution. You are dealing with line voltage. Bad things can happen.
Ever seen a motor soco and lx soco cross patched...exciting!
Title: Re: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: Eric Snodgrass on July 28, 2019, 03:35:37 pm
Ever seen a motor soco and lx soco cross patched...exciting!

Oh yes.  Very exciting.
Years ago I was helping load in a sound system for a new production.  Powered Meyer line arrays using socapex to carry the power.  Unfortunately the shop sent out the wrong socapex - the wiring configuration of the socapex cable differed from the socapex breakout.  We found this out the hard way - turning on the power to one speaker cabinet and hearing the loudest sound I've ever heard come out of a speaker.  The miswiring caused power to go through the signal cables too, frying an XTA processor and a couple of console channels. 
The speaker?  It was fine.  The only damage to the entire speaker cabinet was that the onboard amp module had a burnt resistor. 
Title: Re: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: Hunk Huang on July 31, 2019, 09:00:23 pm
A company I work for uses NL-8 connectors. Works great!

At the motor you have both power and control going into a NL-8. At the controller side you have a NL-8 breakout to power and control. Use couplers to join the NL-8 run to each end.

Just one cable to run, and cables you likely have on hand anyways.
true1 is CBC connector
NL8 and old powercon is not
Title: Re: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: Riley Casey on July 31, 2019, 09:04:09 pm
What is "CBC" in this context?

true1 is CBC connector
NL8 and old powercon is not
Title: Re: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: Brian Adams on August 01, 2019, 10:18:18 am
What is "CBC" in this context?

I had to search for that term, but it's exactly what I expected:

connector with breaking capacity - CBC (abbreviation)   
   connector specially designed to be engaged or disengaged in normal use when live or under load

http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=581-27-72 (http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/display?openform&ievref=581-27-72)


I appreciate all the advice in this thread. It seems that XLR probably isn't a great choice for the control, since it's only rated for 50v.

I suppose I could use True1 for the control as well as line, which would minimize the chances of patching something where it doesn't belong.
Title: Re: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: Brian Larson on August 04, 2019, 07:15:36 pm


II suppose I could use True1 for the control as well as line, which would minimize the chances of patching something where it doesn't belong.


Thatís a lateral, if not more dangerous move. Then line voltage could be plugged into the control line. At least swap the control to the female version of a true1 so they arenít facing the same way and any connections to the motor control would be downstream (not powerING, but getting power FROM).
Title: Re: Powercon True1 for 1ph motor power?
Post by: Brian Adams on August 04, 2019, 11:35:04 pm

Thatís a lateral, if not more dangerous move. Then line voltage could be plugged into the control line. At least swap the control to the female version of a true1 so they arenít facing the same way and any connections to the motor control would be downstream (not powerING, but getting power FROM).

That would be the obvious choice, same way dual twist connectors are opposite.