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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Wireless and Communications => Topic started by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 24, 2019, 01:18:02 am

Title: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 24, 2019, 01:18:02 am
Hello everyone!
I'm Rod.
I'm new to the forum, but not new to audio.
Ran my own recording studio for about 10 years, went and got a Production & Engineering diploma from Berklee, finishing my Degree in Leeds, UK at Leeds College of Music, and am now touring with a function band.

Which leads me to the question!
Since we do everything ourselves, including the entire PA, miking, cabling the works, and we sometimes do 3 gigs in 3 consecutive days, it gets REALLY bad having to put all of it up and take it all down each single time.
To alleviate some of the effort, I've been thinking about ways to make it easier, quicker, faster, lighter, simpler.
The band is a 4-piece. Vocals, guitar, bass, drums.
We currently have everything going through an Allen & Heath 16 channel mixer.
I, the drummer, get one AUX cable from the main mixer to a smaller mixer, to get my click and monitoring in my in-ears.
We can't afford to have everyone on in-ears yet, because for the three of them they would have to be wireless (mine aren't, since I'm not going anywhere).

The biggest hassle right now, is miking and cabling the drumset. So, I had an idea.

Putting, for example, a Sennheiser XS system on each of my drums.

Kick, Snare, 3 Toms, 2 overheads.
(https://i.imgur.com/iZYZPI0.jpg)
Now...
- How reliable would this be? Interference wise, etc, with so many of them running next to each other?
- Cost/benefit? I mean each pair of XS transmitter/receiver is 266.
- Anything else I haven't thought about? Other solutions, other ideas?

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Russell Ault on June 24, 2019, 01:23:33 am
Hello everyone!
I'm Rod.

Hi Rod!

Welcome! According to the forum rules, no one is allowed to answer your question until your Display Name is your real, full name, and there's a decent chance a Mod will be along shortly to lock this thread if you don't do so right away...

-Russ
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 24, 2019, 01:30:25 am
Hi Rod!

Welcome! According to the forum rules, no one is allowed to answer your question until your Display Name is your real, full name, and there's a decent chance a Mod will be along shortly to lock this thread if you don't do so right away...

-Russ

Done. Thanks for the heads up!
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Caleb Dueck on June 24, 2019, 02:00:08 am
Done. Thanks for the heads up!

Wireless drums can work, but not well with XS.  You'll want to look at QLX-D, ULX-D, Axient Digital, Lectrosonics, or Sennheiser 6000 or 9000.  All the "fun" of using wireless in different venues plus multiple transmitters together plus companding plus compromised frequency/phase response. 

I'd rather look at internally mic'ed drums and an XLR loom.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 24, 2019, 02:13:59 am
Wireless drums can work, but not well with XS.  You'll want to look at QLX-D, ULX-D, Axient Digital, Lectrosonics, or Sennheiser 6000 or 9000.  All the "fun" of using wireless in different venues plus multiple transmitters together plus companding plus compromised frequency/phase response. 

I'd rather look at internally mic'ed drums and an XLR loom.

So, those two are options I've considered.
The bass drum actually has a MAY miking system installed, with a KELLY SHU mounting system inside. I never take the mic out, I just connect/disconnect the cable.
But, this works becuase I can easily access the mic via the hole in the front head in case it moves (which... after like 30 gigs, it did. Only once, but it did).
As for the toms and snare... You put them in there, you're done. Absolutely unrealistic for someone in my situation where I don't have a drum tech or roadies or anyone else to do anything in case something stops working. Taking a head off to mess with the mic inside is completely out of the question. And this changes nothing for the overheads...

Now, a loop would help, yes, because then it's just one thick ass cable going from the drums to the main mixer, but we still need to run it, tape it to the floor, coil and store it when done, all that jazz. And it's way bigger and heavier than all the wireless transmitters put together, by a lot...
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Steve M Smith on June 24, 2019, 03:14:30 am
welcome to the forum.  A friend of mine used to teach at Leeds Coillege of Music (Berklay McKay).

Whilst is is doable, my worry is that it is just more things with a potential to go wrong.  I like to keep things simple.


Steve.

Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: John Penkala on June 24, 2019, 04:51:07 am
So, those two are options I've considered.
The bass drum actually has a MAY miking system installed, with a KELLY SHU mounting system inside. I never take the mic out, I just connect/disconnect the cable.
But, this works becuase I can easily access the mic via the hole in the front head in case it moves (which... after like 30 gigs, it did. Only once, but it did).
As for the toms and snare... You put them in there, you're done. Absolutely unrealistic for someone in my situation where I don't have a drum tech or roadies or anyone else to do anything in case something stops working. Taking a head off to mess with the mic inside is completely out of the question. And this changes nothing for the overheads...

Now, a loop would help, yes, because then it's just one thick ass cable going from the drums to the main mixer, but we still need to run it, tape it to the floor, coil and store it when done, all that jazz. And it's way bigger and heavier than all the wireless transmitters put together, by a lot...

Well, it looks like you've given the alternatives alot of thought. Let us know how you make out with your new wireless rig. Best of luck.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Erik Jerde on June 24, 2019, 07:24:15 am
A $5 cable beats a $5000 wireless unit every day of the week.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Dave Scarlett on June 24, 2019, 08:22:01 am
You mention that you are using a 16 channel A&H board. If 16 channels does the job you could go with a digital mixer from A&H or Behringer with a stage box to the drum location then some 10 or 15 ft XLR's.
I made that change a a few years ago and set up / tear down is quick and easy.
   
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on June 24, 2019, 11:30:19 am
You mention that you are using a 16 channel A&H board. If 16 channels does the job you could go with a digital mixer from A&H or Behringer with a stage box to the drum location then some 10 or 15 ft XLR's.
I made that change a a few years ago and set up / tear down is quick and easy.
 

A little analog snake too.

I see many acts come around with mics mounted in the shells.  They usually have an XLR connector on the drum itself.  An analog snake to the main snake serves as your look.

I can't imagine this would save more than 10 minutes and I am old fat guy.  In addition to that and the duties of checking RF at each venue and replacing batteries each gig (or charging) seems lots of risk for little gain.  The Senheisers are the wrong choice.   Decent wireless (others in Sennheiser line or the Shure's and Lectrosonic's mentioned.) are quite pricey too.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 24, 2019, 02:04:18 pm
You mention that you are using a 16 channel A&H board. If 16 channels does the job you could go with a digital mixer from A&H or Behringer with a stage box to the drum location then some 10 or 15 ft XLR's.
I made that change a a few years ago and set up / tear down is quick and easy.
 

Now, this is one thing I arrived at, after some consideration! Building myself a little drummer rack with a mixer, and go one cable from that to the main one.
Then I'd get a mixer that allows iPad control because the other issue is, my poor guitarist needs to run back and forth, between the stage and the audience space every time he changes something to listen to it from the crowd's perspective.
Then a small snake from the drums to the new mixer. Hmmm yeah seems better than having to deal with RF from place to place (we tour all over the UK so I'm guessing there's going to be big changes with each location).
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 24, 2019, 02:09:41 pm
A little analog snake too.

I see many acts come around with mics mounted in the shells.  They usually have an XLR connector on the drum itself.  An analog snake to the main snake serves as your look.

I can't imagine this would save more than 10 minutes and I am old fat guy.  In addition to that and the duties of checking RF at each venue and replacing batteries each gig (or charging) seems lots of risk for little gain.  The Senheisers are the wrong choice.   Decent wireless (others in Sennheiser line or the Shure's and Lectrosonic's mentioned.) are quite pricey too.

Yeah. BATTERIES. I'm already quite annoyed at messing with my GoPro batteries... that's true.
As for the mics in the shells, at first I LOVED the idea of having just an XLR connector in the shells and have a plug-and-play drumset. It's already great having that in the kick drum. But, I don't want to drill my wood shells. And the MAY through-vent system I have on the kick is great, but it does come loose sometimes. Can't have that.

I do have plans on getting a second drumset, and it'll probably be acrylic. I've already talked to Forecast drums and they offer the XLR installation on every drum. I'll look into that some more I guess. Maybe I can have the mics inside so steady that they won't move.

Thank you everyone for all the considerations and suggestions! Very good number of replies, great stuff in such a short time. I'm glad I signed up to this forum.
I'll definitely update this with progress!

Cheers!
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Dave Scarlett on June 24, 2019, 03:35:51 pm
Now, this is one thing I arrived on, after some consideration! Building myself a little drummer rack with a mixer, and go one cable from that to the main one.
Then I'd get a mixer that allows iPad control because the other issue is, my poor guitarist needs to run back and forth, between the stage and the audience space every time he changes something to listen to it from the crowd's perspective.
Then a small snake from the drums to the new mixer. Hmmm yeah seems better than having to deal with RF from place to place (we tour all over the UK so I'm guessing there's going to be big changes with each location).

No not a snake but a single CAT5 cable. If you go with Behringer and have less than 8 mics on your kit here's all you need: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1141601-REG/behringer_sd8_i_o_stage_box_with.html

You could then mix on a tablet from anywhere.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 24, 2019, 05:57:21 pm
No not a snake but a single CAT5 cable. If you go with Behringer and have less than 8 mics on your kit here's all you need: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1141601-REG/behringer_sd8_i_o_stage_box_with.html

You could then mix on a tablet from anywhere.

Oh, I should've specified. The A&H console we have doesn't have that option, unfortunately... Would be great though. That console IS getting a bit old, but it's still doing its job... when it finally gives, we'll do that.

In the meantime, on the drums side, I was thinking something more like this:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1360169-REG/presonus_studiolive_16r_16x8_digital_rack_mixer.html

Because:
- Right now I use 7 channels but that might change
- It's also an interface so I could add a laptop and record
- Rack mountable. Protection, transportation etc
- I like PreSonus
- Smallest and most feature packed I could find
- Great value (right?Or no?)
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Caleb Dueck on June 24, 2019, 08:09:00 pm
Oh, I should've specified. The A&H console we have doesn't have that option, unfortunately... Would be great though. That console IS getting a bit old, but it's still doing its job... when it finally gives, we'll do that.

In the meantime, on the drums side, I was thinking something more like this:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1360169-REG/presonus_studiolive_16r_16x8_digital_rack_mixer.html

Because:
- Right now I use 7 channels but that might change
- It's also an interface so I could add a laptop and record
- Rack mountable. Protection, transportation etc
- I like PreSonus
- Smallest and most feature packed I could find
- Great value (right?Or no?)

A&H SQ5.  I don't know how many people would consider Presonus a great value or feature packed or easy to use or great sounding or long lasting... 
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 24, 2019, 08:26:14 pm
A&H SQ5.  I don't know how many people would consider Presonus a great value or feature packed or easy to use or great sounding or long lasting...

Really? I used to teach at a School of Rock and they had one (not the exact same one I just mentioned), and I had one of their headphone units... None of them ever had any issues for the LONG time they saw use (almost 10 years in my studio, about 3 in the school).

The SQ5 is too expensive, too big, not rack mountable.

Care to suggest something better than the PreSonus, that offers at least 16 pres, is an interface, offers the iPad mixing functionality, has front headphone out, occupies just 1U and costs around 700?

Because you see, I should have mentioned the purpose of this little rack is not just for use with my band, but also for any other stuff I might do myself, as a drummer. I want a 4-6U rack I can carry around myself easily.
I'd have a Furman, the 1U mixer, a drawer and then have 1-3 extra spaces for whatever else I might want to add to it later on.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Dave Garoutte on June 24, 2019, 08:53:10 pm
You might consider the Soundcraft UI24.
For not much more cash than the Presonus, you can do the whole band.
It will replace the A&H and you mix off your tablets and phones.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 24, 2019, 10:12:00 pm
You might consider the Soundcraft UI24.
For not much more cash than the Presonus, you can do the whole band.
It will replace the A&H and you mix off your tablets and phones.

Hmmm so the Soundcraft you mentioned is about the same price as the PreSonus I linked. With 8 more channels and included router, it really does look like a better purchase... I wonder why it's so much cheaper(as in cost/benefit, since it's less per channel) though.
But it's 4U. Big. Hmmm.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Russell Ault on June 24, 2019, 11:24:50 pm
Care to suggest something better than the PreSonus, that offers at least 16 pres, is an interface, offers the iPad mixing functionality, has front headphone out, occupies just 1U and costs around 700?

Behringer has a couple of relevant options: XR18 (much cheaper, 2U, less powerful, not expandable) and X32Rack (3U, still cheaper, way more powerful, quite expandable). I'd take both over the PreSonus any day.

Just so you're aware, PreSonus tends to have a very poor reputation among many live sound technicians. The original PreSonus StudioLive is the only console I've ever wanted to throw off a building even when working flawlessly (which it almost never did), and the bad taste it left was very strong. I'm sure PreSonus knows a lot about the needs of the studio, but for live sound they missed the mark on the original StudioLive in almost every way, and many of us aren't yet prepared to forgive them.

-Russ
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 24, 2019, 11:59:43 pm
Behringer has a couple of relevant options: XR18 (much cheaper, 2U, less powerful, not expandable) and X32Rack (3U, still cheaper, way more powerful, quite expandable). I'd take both over the PreSonus any day.

Just so you're aware, PreSonus tends to have a very poor reputation among many live sound technicians. The original PreSonus StudioLive is the only console I've ever wanted to throw off a building even when working flawlessly (which it almost never did), and the bad taste it left was very strong. I'm sure PreSonus knows a lot about the needs of the studio, but for live sound they missed the mark on the original StudioLive in almost every way, and many of us aren't yet prepared to forgive them.

-Russ

AH HA! That makes more sense. I've never seen them used live. That's good to know!!
Hmm. So the X32 is actually 20 more expensive than the Soundcraft Ui24R. But it's, as you said, smaller. 20 for 8 more channels isn't bad at ALL.
I've just never had great experience with Behringer, but to be fair, the last time I used anything they make, was years ago.
So, lemme see. The Ui24R has an onboard router. X32 would require a separate router in my rack, right?
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Mike Caldwell on June 25, 2019, 12:03:40 am
Instead of spending serious cash on a wireless drum mic system I would take a close look of how your complete system is packaged and look for ways to improve that to save time.

As for rack mount mixers, the UI24 is good and also look at the Allen Heath QU Pac.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 25, 2019, 12:33:15 am
Instead of spending serious cash on a wireless drum mic system I would take a close look of how your complete system is packaged and look for ways to improve that to save time.

As for rack mount mixers, the UI24 is good and also look at the Allen Heath QU Pac.

The big time killer is running the cables between the drums and the console + mixing drums again every single gig.
So the first idea was just getting a loop to at least have all the drums inputs at where the drums are and run just one big cable to the console.
But then as I considered it, I thought, why not take the opportunity and build myself a little rig for when I do stuff outside the band?
And thus this thread was born.

Yeah it's looking like it'll be either the Ui24 or the X32. QU Pac is twice the budget...
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on June 25, 2019, 01:30:51 am
The big time killer is running the cables between the drums and the console + mixing drums again every single gig.
So the first idea was just getting a loop to at least have all the drums inputs at where the drums are and run just one big cable to the console.
But then as I considered it, I thought, why not take the opportunity and build myself a little rig for when I do stuff outside the band?
And thus this thread was born.

Yeah it's looking like it'll be either the Ui24 or the X32. QU Pac is twice the budget...

Can we walk through your your setup on your drums?  I just don't understand why it is so time consuming.  Pinning a kit your size is a 10 minute exercise, especially since you can label the snake and loom.

Don't use the internal router of any mixer, they are very low performance and very susceptible to interference.  They also have a sensor that detects when you need them the most and then fail.

Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Steve M Smith on June 25, 2019, 03:32:44 am
So, lemme see. The Ui24R has an onboard router. X32 would require a separate router in my rack, right?


All of them with on board routers should be used with separate routers.  Those built in are terrible.


Steve.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on June 25, 2019, 05:13:31 am
Honestly we can mic up a 6 piece DW running 16 channels in 10-15 minutes? What does your mic setup look like?

Also you may need to get some sub snakes and then make some custom looms. This doesn't need to be difficult. Shorten the cables that you already have to the point where you drop your sub snake and then tape/tie/lace the most convenient cables together.

Generally for me I have a loom for OH L and tom 1(you can probably add snare and kick to that) and then another for Tom2 and OH R(you can add tom 3 to that). I then have separate ones for the snare (top and bottom) and for the two floor toms(remember big kit). I don't run a hats mic, correct OH placement and a competent drummer makes that useless.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Mike Caldwell on June 25, 2019, 08:08:19 am
For a standard set up I'll drop a 12 channel sub snake at the drums, that will pick the drum inputs and some back line. I have made some shorter cables to go from the drum mics to the sub snake. Depending on your mic choices put some 90 degree female connectors on your drum cables to allow for more clearance in tight spots and it looks cleaner as well.

 
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 25, 2019, 08:13:32 am
Can we walk through your your setup on your drums?  I just don't understand why it is so time consuming.  Pinning a kit your size is a 10 minute exercise, especially since you can label the snake and loom.

Don't use the internal router of any mixer, they are very low performance and very susceptible to interference.  They also have a sensor that detects when you need them the most and then fail.

Right. So the mics are the Sennheiser e600 kit. So no mic stands other than the overheads.
Here's the rundown:
- Kick has a KELLY SHU mount, the mic stays in there. I run the cable from the vent at the top of the kick, using the MAY system.
- Snare, rack toms 1 and 2 on their own stand, and floor tom use the 4 mics in the set attached to their rims
- Overheads

Doesn't sound like much, I know. And with the whole band running cables and plugging in, it really doesn't take more than the mentioned 10-15 minutes, but because the only mixer that's being used, both for monitoring and FOH, is on stage with us, the cables have to all run around the drums (the mixer is always to my right side because that's where Rob the guitarist/engineer stands).
On my left I have my little mixer just to have a level for my click track and monitoring everyone else in my wired in-ears, and an iPad which is how we play the backing tracks.

So it's 7 XLR + 1 stereo RCA to mini jack for the iPad, going all to the left of the drumset then around behind me to the mixer on my right side.
That side is also usually where the entrance/exit to the stage is, so we have to tape all those cables to the floor there so we don't trip on them etc.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 25, 2019, 08:14:11 am

All of them with on board routers should be used with separate routers.  Those built in are terrible.


Steve.

Ah HA! Good to know.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Dave Garoutte on June 25, 2019, 12:15:31 pm
Since you are mixing for the one band / drums, you can save your scene/mix in the UI or XR so you don't have to start from scratch each show.  Levels, effects, dynamics, monitor mixes, routing can all be saved.
Given a consistent line-up, you would basically be plug and play, other than the venue differences.
BTW, the UI has one of the best interfaces out there, super configurable.
As to the built in WiFi, they work fine until they don't.  When the UI has dropped out, it just stops controlling things.  Re-connecting causes no audible problems.  But an external router is definitely more reliable.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 25, 2019, 03:21:39 pm
Hi Rod, and welcome to the LAB forums.

As you have studio background you might want to borrow or hire the Senny system and record your drums with them, and then record using the same mics with wired connections.  Compare and contrast and you'll hear why Erik Jerde said what he did in reply #7... well, sort of.  At the US$5k mark the wireless is getting darn close to a cable but at the prices most of us can afford the step down in quality is apparent.

For the most part, time saving is found in pre-packaging the mics, DIs and cabling.  If your band sets up the same way most of the time this will likely give you a much better result than wireless mics on the drum kit.  Cable looms and sub-snakes are your friends and since this is for the same band with (hopefully) similar physical set up each time, you can customize the looms & subsnakes to your needs.

If you use a drum rack rather than individual stands you can affix the drum mic cable loom to it for transport; you'll not need to do anything but mount your mics, plug them in, and then plug the loom into the mixer/sub snake/digital snake box.  Build a loom of mic cables to run to stage left and stage right from your on-stage mixer; only 1 thing to coil up at the end of the night.  Get Z-Bars for the guitar amps, hang a Senny e906, etc to get rid of GTR mic stands.  Run a sub-snake down front to pick up the downstage vocals, horns or keys, etc.  If a general area needs more than 1 mic cable it's probably worth building a loom or if the cable run length is over 25 ft or so a sub-snake is probably better.

Delegating tasks to the band members is important, too.  In a celebrity impersonation show I worked with the cast was responsible for setting the front line monitor wedges, running the speaker cable loom to them and plugging them in, running a down stage AC power stringer for fans and performer "practicals", and setting out any mics and stands the cast used.  The orchestra (band) members were responsible for anything within an arm's reach of their performance area.  Wedge, mic stands, helping run looms or sub snakes, stage AC power.  I did all the patching at the main snake and did a line check from the monitor console as we went along.  From the time we had AC power to stage left, audio was ready for sound check and rehearsals in <60 minutes.  Around 38-42 inputs, 8-10 piece orchestra, 5-6 cast members.  And that 60 minutes included putting out set pieces and risers, but not final dressing of the stage.

There is a sticky thread at the top of the Lounge index about the best way to integrate a band IEM rig with a house or festival PA system.  I mention that because there is much discussion of how to package for speedy deployment and compact transport & operation.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

Edit ps: I see you're in the UK.  You'll have to do the metric conversions... ;)
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 25, 2019, 03:33:29 pm
Since you are mixing for the one band / drums, you can save your scene/mix in the UI or XR so you don't have to start from scratch each show.  Levels, effects, dynamics, monitor mixes, routing can all be saved.
Given a consistent line-up, you would basically be plug and play, other than the venue differences.
BTW, the UI has one of the best interfaces out there, super configurable.
As to the built in WiFi, they work fine until they don't.  When the UI has dropped out, it just stops controlling things.  Re-connecting causes no audible problems.  But an external router is definitely more reliable.

Yeah the saving of scenes is the #1 reason why I immediately considered digital. I started with an analog in the studio, when I went digital... My god the ease.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 25, 2019, 03:38:04 pm
Hi Rod, and welcome to the LAB forums.

As you have studio background you might want to borrow or hire the Senny system and record your drums with them, and then record using the same mics with wired connections.  Compare and contrast and you'll hear why Erik Jerde said what he did in reply #7... well, sort of.  At the US$5k mark the wireless is getting darn close to a cable but at the prices most of us can afford the step down in quality is apparent.

For the most part, time saving is found in pre-packaging the mics, DIs and cabling.  If your band sets up the same way most of the time this will likely give you a much better result than wireless mics on the drum kit.  Cable looms and sub-snakes are your friends and since this is for the same band with (hopefully) similar physical set up each time, you can customize the looms & subsnakes to your needs.

If you use a drum rack rather than individual stands you can affix the drum mic cable loom to it for transport; you'll not need to do anything but mount your mics, plug them in, and then plug the loom into the mixer/sub snake/digital snake box.  Build a loom of mic cables to run to stage left and stage right from your on-stage mixer; only 1 thing to coil up at the end of the night.  Get Z-Bars for the guitar amps, hang a Senny e906, etc to get rid of GTR mic stands.  Run a sub-snake down front to pick up the downstage vocals, horns or keys, etc.  If a general area needs more than 1 mic cable it's probably worth building a loom or if the cable run length is over 25 ft or so a sub-snake is probably better.

Delegating tasks to the band members is important, too.  In a celebrity impersonation show I worked with the cast was responsible for setting the front line monitor wedges, running the speaker cable loom to them and plugging them in, running a down stage AC power stringer for fans and performer "practicals", and setting out any mics and stands the cast used.  The orchestra (band) members were responsible for anything within an arm's reach of their performance area.  Wedge, mic stands, helping run looms or sub snakes, stage AC power.  I did all the patching at the main snake and did a line check from the monitor console as we went along.  From the time we had AC power to stage left, audio was ready for sound check and rehearsals in <60 minutes.  Around 38-42 inputs, 8-10 piece orchestra, 5-6 cast members.  And that 60 minutes included putting out set pieces and risers, but not final dressing of the stage.

There is a sticky thread at the top of the Lounge index about the best way to integrate a band IEM rig with a house or festival PA system.  I mention that because there is much discussion of how to package for speedy deployment and compact transport & operation.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

Edit ps: I see you're in the UK.  You'll have to do the metric conversions... ;)

Thank you!

And yeah, we don't use any amps actually. guitar goes straight from the FX pedalboard to the console and PA. Rob says, since it's function and we're there as basically a human jukebox, it's not worth it carrying, miking and setting up amps. I think he's right.
The only reason we still use floor wedges for monitoring is because we can't afford in-ears for everyone, because theirs would have to be wireless.
The goal is to always go smaller and smaller. The in-ears are in the list of next steps, right along with a BOSE PA so we can also reduce our PA size but keep it loud enough.
By the way, any input on the BOSE stuff? I've never used it but I keep hearing good things about it.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 25, 2019, 03:42:03 pm
Also, here's a quick question about these mixers:
All of them have a USB port for playing stuff from a pen drive.
But, in my use case, we use an iPad to play the stuff. It'd be nice if I could use the USB to both charge it and play, instead of having to use a charger + audio cable. The lightning cable would also be more secure. Had a problem last gig with the mini-jack cable coming off the top of it.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Dave Garoutte on June 25, 2019, 03:44:08 pm

By the way, any input on the BOSE stuff? I've never used it but I keep hearing good things about it.


Not so much here.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Russell Ault on June 25, 2019, 03:52:53 pm
By the way, any input on the BOSE stuff? I've never used it but I keep hearing good things about it.

For most of what they manufacture, they aren't tools I'd ever choose to use (even if that meant mixing on a PreSonus). Their install products aren't terrible (ControlSpace has its quirks, but what in that space doesn't), but the rest? Nope.

-Russ
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 25, 2019, 04:03:49 pm
BOSE.

Buy
Other
Sound
Equipment
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 25, 2019, 04:37:10 pm
BOSE.

Buy
Other
Sound
Equipment

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Too good, mate.

On a slightly separate topic: Since all of you have been recommending using an external router, do you guys have a recommendation of one that's in 1U format? I'd hate to build a beautiful rack and have a regular, ugly ass, loose upside down spider-looking router sitting on top of it.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on June 25, 2019, 04:40:58 pm
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Too good, mate.

On a slightly separate topic: Since all of you have been recommending using an external router, do you guys have a recommendation of one that's in 1U format? I'd hate to build a beautiful rack and have a regular, ugly ass, loose upside down spider-looking router sitting on top of it.

No, you don't want to put a wireless unit down low in a rack.  It needs to have line of sight.   Besides you don't need a router, just an access point.  Some have great form factors that you can mount on a mic stand or something to get the height you need.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 25, 2019, 05:02:00 pm
No, you don't want to put a wireless unit down low in a rack.  It needs to have line of site.   Besides you don't need a router, just an access point.  Some have great form factors that you can mount on a mic stand or something to get the height you need.

Right. I forgot about the height thing. Crap. That's probably why I can't find a lot of 1U ones. Hmmm.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Mike Caldwell on June 25, 2019, 07:47:14 pm
Also, here's a quick question about these mixers:
All of them have a USB port for playing stuff from a pen drive.
But, in my use case, we use an iPad to play the stuff. It'd be nice if I could use the USB to both charge it and play, instead of having to use a charger + audio cable. The lightning cable would also be more secure. Had a problem last gig with the mini-jack cable coming off the top of it.

On mixers that support audio playback from a USB stick load your tracks to the USB stick and play them directly from the mixer. They all have a player menu that shows the files.
If your busy mixing someone else with an iPad could play the files.

For back up have a couple USB sticks with the needed files on them and or course the iPad as well.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Jason Glass on June 25, 2019, 07:47:48 pm
The only reason we still use floor wedges for monitoring is because we can't afford in-ears for everyone, because theirs would have to be wireless.

Are their guitars wireless?  If not, there's no good reason at all that they can't loom IEM cables with their guitar cables.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 25, 2019, 08:08:09 pm
Are their guitars wireless?  If not, there's no good reason at all that they can't loom IEM cables with their guitar cables.

No, but the singer's mic is, so at the very least she needs wireless.
Also there's different tunings so it's not the same guitar for the entire show. The IEM running with the guitar cable is a second unplug and plug... Remember we have NOBODY helping us.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Jason Glass on June 25, 2019, 08:57:35 pm
No, but the singer's mic is, so at the very least she needs wireless.
Also there's different tunings so it's not the same guitar for the entire show. The IEM running with the guitar cable is a second unplug and plug... Remember we have NOBODY helping us.

OK, leave her on wedges with her RF mic.  She'll love her mix more than she ever has when the rest of the band is on IEM.  Maybe run the hardwired GTR IEM mixes cables separately from the GTR cables if that's more suitable.  Trailing two cables per player is not a showstopper when they're accustomed to one cable.  Unless you're playing stadiums, then of course that might not work.  But on anything less than a 30 ft. x 40 ft. deck, it's trivial for most pro musicians to comfortably manage.  I've worked with several top-A-level players who actually prefer this scenario to wireless!  Because they hold pristine sound in highest regard over all else.  In stadiums!

The GTR cable can go to the same input on the pedalboard regardless of guitar/tuning/whatever.  Looming GTR and IEM together makes no difference which guitar is on the player and instrument changes are the same as with a single cable.  Pop the connector out of the guitar, take the guitar off, put the new guitar on, pop the connector into the new guitar.  All the while the IEM cable remains attached.

The bottom line is that if a player is otherwise tethered by any one cable throughout their performance, wireless becomes a matter of convenience and not of necessity.  And RF audio is always inferior to cable, no matter how expensive.  Always.

I'm just trying to help you guys have the best playing experience that you can, even if you have a small budget.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Xiang Cao on June 25, 2019, 11:51:56 pm
Do you have to use 7 mics on your drums? If it is just a bar gig, kick/snare/overhead is more than enough.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: David Winners on June 26, 2019, 02:00:54 pm
OK, leave her on wedges with her RF mic.  She'll love her mix more than she ever has when the rest of the band is on IEM.  Maybe run the hardwired GTR IEM mixes cables separately from the GTR cables if that's more suitable.  Trailing two cables per player is not a showstopper when they're accustomed to one cable.  Unless you're playing stadiums, then of course that might not work.  But on anything less than a 30 ft. x 40 ft. deck, it's trivial for most pro musicians to comfortably manage.  I've worked with several top-A-level players who actually prefer this scenario to wireless!  Because they hold pristine sound in highest regard over all else.  In stadiums!

The GTR cable can go to the same input on the pedalboard regardless of guitar/tuning/whatever.  Looming GTR and IEM together makes no difference which guitar is on the player and instrument changes are the same as with a single cable.  Pop the connector out of the guitar, take the guitar off, put the new guitar on, pop the connector into the new guitar.  All the while the IEM cable remains attached.

The bottom line is that if a player is otherwise tethered by any one cable throughout their performance, wireless becomes a matter of convenience and not of necessity.  And RF audio is always inferior to cable, no matter how expensive.  Always.

I'm just trying to help you guys have the best playing experience that you can, even if you have a small budget.

I personally run this way. I have a Behringer Powerplay headphone amp on a small bracket on my mic stand. The sends from the board feed it. I have 20' instrument cables with 25' x1/8" TRS cables taped to them. Works great. Sounds better than wireless for sure.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 26, 2019, 02:11:36 pm
OK, leave her on wedges with her RF mic.  She'll love her mix more than she ever has when the rest of the band is on IEM.  Maybe run the hardwired GTR IEM mixes cables separately from the GTR cables if that's more suitable.  Trailing two cables per player is not a showstopper when they're accustomed to one cable.  Unless you're playing stadiums, then of course that might not work.  But on anything less than a 30 ft. x 40 ft. deck, it's trivial for most pro musicians to comfortably manage.  I've worked with several top-A-level players who actually prefer this scenario to wireless!  Because they hold pristine sound in highest regard over all else.  In stadiums!

The GTR cable can go to the same input on the pedalboard regardless of guitar/tuning/whatever.  Looming GTR and IEM together makes no difference which guitar is on the player and instrument changes are the same as with a single cable.  Pop the connector out of the guitar, take the guitar off, put the new guitar on, pop the connector into the new guitar.  All the while the IEM cable remains attached.

The bottom line is that if a player is otherwise tethered by any one cable throughout their performance, wireless becomes a matter of convenience and not of necessity.  And RF audio is always inferior to cable, no matter how expensive.  Always.

I'm just trying to help you guys have the best playing experience that you can, even if you have a small budget.

She's been complaining about not hearing herself, or having to have the wedges too loud so she can. It's probably my fault, being a hard hitter.
If anyone needs in ears it's her. Being also a singer myself, I can't begin to tell ya how huge of a difference it makes, for singing.
But I'll definitely run the wired IEM idea by the two axemen.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 26, 2019, 02:13:04 pm
Do you have to use 7 mics on your drums? If it is just a bar gig, kick/snare/overhead is more than enough.

Yes. I have to.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 26, 2019, 03:29:40 pm
Yes. I have to.

I mic up the whole kit and decide which ones to turn on/up/off at sound check.  It's much easier than trying to add mics while the show is running or delaying sound check. 8)
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on June 26, 2019, 06:10:00 pm
I mic up the whole kit and decide which ones to turn on/up/off at sound check.  It's much easier than trying to add mics while the show is running or delaying sound check. 8)

My man!
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Scott Helmke on June 28, 2019, 11:14:50 am
She's been complaining about not hearing herself, or having to have the wedges too loud so she can. It's probably my fault, being a hard hitter.
If anyone needs in ears it's her. Being also a singer myself, I can't begin to tell ya how huge of a difference it makes, for singing.
But I'll definitely run the wired IEM idea by the two axemen.

At some point the ear starts overloading, and when it does there's a huge loss of vocal clarity. I wouldn't be surprised if lowering the overall volume would help.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on July 01, 2019, 10:36:14 pm
So!
I've made my decision. I'm going with the Soundcraft. Should be getting it in the next month or so.
Now, the next step is the rack case, and what else I should put in there, I kinda brushed on this before.
An often overlooked part but one that's absolutely crucial, is a power unit, right?
So, I look at Furman units.
I was used to seeing the ones with the american plugs in the back so the IEC ones confused me a little bit, but I now see how this is actually BETTER.
Now, the real question in my mind is...

Looking at the options on Thomann.de, there's quite a few Furmans.

The two I have in front of me here are:
https://www.thomann.de/gb/furman_m10x_e.htm
https://www.thomann.de/gb/furman_plpro_dmc_e.htm

Both of them have 10 outlets at the back and one on the front.
But, the more expensive one has:
- Front USB charging port
- Pull-out lights
- Resets per bank of 5 instead of one reset for all 10
- Voltage indicator
- Dimmer

Now, these features are all 100% convenience, right? Both units will provide clean, safe, gear-life-extending power.
One gig we did, the power installation was so bad that we had to use the iPad on battery power because when plugged in it'd hum like a MOFO.

Now, I'm pretty sure I'm missing something, because the price difference of FIVE TIMES more between them, can definitely not be justified by the convenience features alone.
Is the expensive one worth it? Do I need it?

Then all in all, the rack is looking like it'll be an 8U wheeled gator case.
Soundcraft 4U
Power conditioner 1U
An actual outlets rack unit like this (https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_t_racks_power_7_s_gb.htm) 1U
And a drawer for storage, or maybe just blanks 2U

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 02, 2019, 05:03:07 am
So!
I've made my decision. I'm going with the Soundcraft. Should be getting it in the next month or so.
Now, the next step is the rack case, and what else I should put in there, I kinda brushed on this before.
An often overlooked part but one that's absolutely crucial, is a power unit, right?
So, I look at Furman units.
I was used to seeing the ones with the american plugs in the back so the IEC ones confused me a little bit, but I now see how this is actually BETTER.
Now, the real question in my mind is...

Looking at the options on Thomann.de, there's quite a few Furmans.

The two I have in front of me here are:
https://www.thomann.de/gb/furman_m10x_e.htm
https://www.thomann.de/gb/furman_plpro_dmc_e.htm

Both of them have 10 outlets at the back and one on the front.
But, the more expensive one has:
- Front USB charging port
- Pull-out lights
- Resets per bank of 5 instead of one reset for all 10
- Voltage indicator
- Dimmer

Now, these features are all 100% convenience, right? Both units will provide clean, safe, gear-life-extending power.
One gig we did, the power installation was so bad that we had to use the iPad on battery power because when plugged in it'd hum like a MOFO.

Now, I'm pretty sure I'm missing something, because the price difference of FIVE TIMES more between them, can definitely not be justified by the convenience features alone.
Is the expensive one worth it? Do I need it?

Then all in all, the rack is looking like it'll be an 8U wheeled gator case.
Soundcraft 4U
Power conditioner 1U
An actual outlets rack unit like this (https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_t_racks_power_7_s_gb.htm) 1U
And a drawer for storage, or maybe just blanks 2U

Thoughts?

Quote
Now, these features are all 100% convenience, right? Both units will provide clean, safe, gear-life-extending power.
One gig we did, the power installation was so bad that we had to use the iPad on battery power because when plugged in it'd hum like a MOFO.

Come on you said you went to engineering school, these things provide extra margin to the dealer while providing no more protection than a $2.00 surge suppressor.  They may filter a little bit of noise.

You need to put a small, high quality UPS in the rack to achieve your goals.

Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 02, 2019, 08:51:50 am
Most "power conditioners" are not.  They are MOV-based surge protectors built into a rack mount power bar.  They provide convenience and a modicum of surge protection but that is all... and that may be all you need.

I suggest an uninterruptible power supply like for a computer or office equipment.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Dave Garoutte on July 02, 2019, 12:38:46 pm
Forget the Furman.
Absolutely add a UPS.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on July 02, 2019, 04:56:07 pm
Come on you said you went to engineering school, these things provide extra margin to the dealer while providing no more protection than a $2.00 surge suppressor.  They may filter a little bit of noise.

You need to put a small, high quality UPS in the rack to achieve your goals.

I did!!! But I'm biased because Berklee was insane with the level of gear they had. It was all thousands and thousands of outboard gear. Including the very expensive Furman units...

But this is the other side of it. Live sound, which means a LOT of more risks come into play, including damaging the gear cuz it'll get transported so much.

I did think about an UPS.
Looking into that now.

You guys are awesome!
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 02, 2019, 11:49:05 pm
I did!!! But I'm biased because Berklee was insane with the level of gear they had. It was all thousands and thousands of outboard gear. Including the very expensive Furman units...

But this is the other side of it. Live sound, which means a LOT of more risks come into play, including damaging the gear cuz it'll get transported so much.

I did think about an UPS.
Looking into that now.

You guys are awesome!

I have no doubt that Berklee spent a whole lot of money on gear that spec'd by a vendor and that power conditioner was .0005% of the purchase price so nobody cared.

Now that we have to be stewards of our own resources we need to be a bit more selective.  If I see an FOH rack with a UPS it elevates my opinion of the operator, a Furman does the opposite.  A well thought out integrated distro/break out panel is a similar benefit.  JBL doesn't put them in zillion dollar power and processing racks!

Glad you are having fun here.  You have been a good sport to the chop busting. 
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 03, 2019, 12:23:23 pm
I have no doubt that Berklee spent a whole lot of money on gear that spec'd by a vendor and that power conditioner was .0005% of the purchase price so nobody cared.

Now that we have to be stewards of our own resources we need to be a bit more selective.  If I see an FOH rack with a UPS it elevates my opinion of the operator, a Furman does the opposite.  A well thought out integrated distro/break out panel is a similar benefit.  JBL doesn't put them in zillion dollar power and processing racks!

Glad you are having fun here.  You have been a good sport to the chop busting.

Furman, Mackie, most of the other successful marketers of power or audio products (Crown's trumpeting of damping factor, etc) got their market share by getting buyers to believe there was some "secret sauce" somewhere.  You can't see it, you can't taste it, you can't hear it... but it's there according to the marketing spin.  "Power conditioner" would seem to indicate the need for "power shampoo".  Lather, rinse, repeat.

If one operates in environments where voltage surges are common, possibly a better choice of product would come from SurgeX.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: lindsay Dean on July 03, 2019, 01:48:10 pm
I realize I'm a little late to the party on the miking up drums question ..........have you checked out the new Yamaha module that goes on the bass drum and covers all the other drums.
    you can set midi signals, you can mix your own drums, you can use samples it's a pretty cool deal for under $600 and sounds great
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Tim Weaver on July 03, 2019, 02:39:29 pm
Admittedly I just skimmed this whole thread, but I'll jump in here because I don't think anyone mentioned this piece of kit to you:

http://whirlwindusa.com/media/uploads/drumdrop_600w.jpg

You can get this without the multipin part which I would recommend. That adds cost and complexity to a setup that at your level you just don't need.

Take this drum drop, label each xlr with the corresponding drum mic and it takes about 30 seconds to plug it all in. Get LP rim mounts for you mics (I prefer LP claws) and there you go. Drums don't take long at all if you just do a little pregaming with the labels and stuff.


BTW, you could go wireless at GREAT expense and then you'll spend all that time you saved trying to get all your wireless stuff talking to each other without interference. AND you'll spend a ton of dough on batteries. AND it'll sound like crap on drums because of the compander. AND you'll just go back to xlr eventually anyway.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Tim Weaver on July 03, 2019, 02:46:58 pm
I did things a little different when I was running my own soundco. I built 2 Three channel subsnakes with long fans on the female end. One hit the kick, snare, an hat and the other hit 2 racks and a floor. Most club gigs don't need overheads, but if you insist on using them I just used mic cable and home ran those. If the drumset was a 4 piece I would use one of the Tom lines for a close-in ride mic.

These 3 channel snakes were about 20 feet long and wrapped around to the 12 channel sub snake that I would drop somewhere close to the drum set. So 6 or 8 of the channels were drums, then that left me 6 or 4 channels to catch the bass, keys, guitars, nose flute, whatever....


Use subsnakes and shorter xlr, and your life will be much easier.


P.S. when you build things yourself you can get fancy and color-code wires and/or use right angle XLR where needed.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on July 03, 2019, 03:31:39 pm
I have no doubt that Berklee spent a whole lot of money on gear that spec'd by a vendor and that power conditioner was .0005% of the purchase price so nobody cared.

Now that we have to be stewards of our own resources we need to be a bit more selective.  If I see an FOH rack with a UPS it elevates my opinion of the operator, a Furman does the opposite.  A well thought out integrated distro/break out panel is a similar benefit.  JBL doesn't put them in zillion dollar power and processing racks!

Glad you are having fun here.  You have been a good sport to the chop busting.

I mean this is clearly not my first rodeo... the roasting is part of the thing.
In general, as a rule of life, I find that pride only gets in the way...
I came here cuz I needed help, and as such I should have a humble attitude otherwise it'll discourage people from helping me.
So what if there's one or two "mean" comments? We're all colleagues at the end of the day, right? We share the struggle of the music business.
This is truly helping a lot so, I have no complaints!
:-)
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Brian Adams on July 03, 2019, 06:48:27 pm
The suggestion of a loom is a good one. The DrumDrop is sort of like a loom, but I think it falls short in that all the cables are the same length. They're correct for maybe 2-3 drums, but the rest are either too long or too short. Plus they're more difficult to put angled connectors on than Neutrik XX series connectors.

I made a loom for one band I work with that's long enough to get to the floor behind the drum riser, which is great for a clean looking stage. The cables are all the length they need to be and it sets up really fast. I'm considering building another with a multipin on the end, but right now I just leave it plugged into a box with a mult out and it works fine.

I don't think you'll find anything better than a loom that's made to length.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Tim Weaver on July 03, 2019, 09:08:44 pm


I don't think you'll find anything better than a loom that's made to length.


This....


I still like to make 2 looms so each can go off the side to go behind the drums. No cables in front except for the kick, but if you've got a SHU mount you won't have that cable in front either.  I also used an X/Y pair of overheads that came up behind my drummer for overheads. Our drum kit looked cool. Well, it did to me anyway......

Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on July 10, 2019, 04:05:57 pm
Alright gents!
I think I have my shopping list.

The rack (https://www.thomann.de/gb/skb_roto_molded_6u_shallow_rack.htm)
Ui24R (https://www.thomann.de/gb/soundcraft_ui24.htm)
Power cable (https://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_extension_cable_iec_05m.htm)
Blank panel (https://www.thomann.de/gb/adam_hall_87221stl_urackblende_1_he.htm)
UPS unit (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007VHDKNY/?coliid=I1NF12Q9AMWSMQ&colid=2RCP09BVH6FGG&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)
Touchscreen (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01F3636V0/?coliid=I3TH41BPDDXWO8&colid=2RCP09BVH6FGG&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)

I also got this router: LINK (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01NAYG15H/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

Am I missing anything?
Cheers!
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 11, 2019, 01:11:12 am
Alright gents!
I think I have my shopping list.

The rack (https://www.thomann.de/gb/skb_roto_molded_6u_shallow_rack.htm)
Ui24R (https://www.thomann.de/gb/soundcraft_ui24.htm)
Power cable (https://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_extension_cable_iec_05m.htm)
Blank panel (https://www.thomann.de/gb/adam_hall_87221stl_urackblende_1_he.htm)
UPS unit (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007VHDKNY/?coliid=I1NF12Q9AMWSMQ&colid=2RCP09BVH6FGG&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)
Touchscreen (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01F3636V0/?coliid=I3TH41BPDDXWO8&colid=2RCP09BVH6FGG&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)

I also got this router: LINK (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01NAYG15H/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

Am I missing anything?
Cheers!

Negative on that router.  Those things don't even cover a hotel room.  I carry one so I can connect multiple devices when the hotel Internet only allows one MAC address per room.  They are crappy little underpowered widgets.

You need to check out the wireless thread and get a proper access point that you get up into line of site.

Since you will be controlling from drums I would hard wire that interface for safety.

Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Tim Weaver on July 11, 2019, 02:03:54 am
Alright gents!
I think I have my shopping list.

The rack (https://www.thomann.de/gb/skb_roto_molded_6u_shallow_rack.htm)
Ui24R (https://www.thomann.de/gb/soundcraft_ui24.htm)
Power cable (https://www.thomann.de/gb/stairville_extension_cable_iec_05m.htm)
Blank panel (https://www.thomann.de/gb/adam_hall_87221stl_urackblende_1_he.htm)
UPS unit (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007VHDKNY/?coliid=I1NF12Q9AMWSMQ&colid=2RCP09BVH6FGG&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)
Touchscreen (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01F3636V0/?coliid=I3TH41BPDDXWO8&colid=2RCP09BVH6FGG&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)

I also got this router: LINK (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01NAYG15H/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

Am I missing anything?
Cheers!

I see a touchscreen, but I don't see a computer to run it. Are you repurposing something you already have?

Honestly I'd get a cheapish android tablet. It's already got the touchscreen built in, and they are fairly durable. Traveling with a full sized monitor is kind of a pain.

How are you connecting all your mics to the mixer? I would still recommend a subsnake. It could be as simple as running your existing XLR in a well thought-out manner, then tape it together with friction tape wherever you can. Say you run 8 channels of mics. At the mixer end, you'll have a bundle of 8 xlr cables taped together. As it gets closer to each drum mic that cable splits out of the loom and has a few feet of "free end". Everything gets labeled. This is the fastest way.

I toured with a band that was big enough to play festivals, but small enough that we played the 5pm afternoon slot where you have 15 minutes to be up and running after the last band's last note. We could be up and making noise in ten minutes easy, and that is all because every mic line in my kit was labeled and if it was routed close to any other mic line, those were loomed together. In the end there were 5 looms for 24 inputs. So we had 5 things to roll out and plug in.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Dave Garoutte on July 11, 2019, 02:35:35 am
I see a touchscreen, but I don't see a computer to run it. Are you repurposing something you already have?
The UI has an output for a big monitor/touchscreen.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Hunk Huang on July 11, 2019, 03:48:15 am
Hello everyone!
I'm Rod.
I'm new to the forum, but not new to audio.
Ran my own recording studio for about 10 years, went and got a Production & Engineering diploma from Berklee, finishing my Degree in Leeds, UK at Leeds College of Music, and am now touring with a function band.

Which leads me to the question!
Since we do everything ourselves, including the entire PA, miking, cabling the works, and we sometimes do 3 gigs in 3 consecutive days, it gets REALLY bad having to put all of it up and take it all down each single time.
To alleviate some of the effort, I've been thinking about ways to make it easier, quicker, faster, lighter, simpler.
The band is a 4-piece. Vocals, guitar, bass, drums.
We currently have everything going through an Allen & Heath 16 channel mixer.
I, the drummer, get one AUX cable from the main mixer to a smaller mixer, to get my click and monitoring in my in-ears.
We can't afford to have everyone on in-ears yet, because for the three of them they would have to be wireless (mine aren't, since I'm not going anywhere).

The biggest hassle right now, is miking and cabling the drumset. So, I had an idea.

Putting, for example, a Sennheiser XS system on each of my drums.

Kick, Snare, 3 Toms, 2 overheads.
(https://i.imgur.com/iZYZPI0.jpg)
Now...
- How reliable would this be? Interference wise, etc, with so many of them running next to each other?
- Cost/benefit? I mean each pair of XS transmitter/receiver is 266.
- Anything else I haven't thought about? Other solutions, other ideas?

Thanks in advance!

This is not a good note
You should learn about
"Three order intermodulation interference "
Radio channels will become increasingly scarce
What you need is a network interface box.
And put it next to DRUM SET
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Dave Scarlett on July 11, 2019, 09:09:13 am
Back to the power thing... and a good DVM too right?
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Tim Weaver on July 11, 2019, 03:55:07 pm
The UI has an output for a big monitor/touchscreen.

Oh cool. Thats something I did not know.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on July 11, 2019, 06:09:56 pm
Ok, let's answer the questions.
The first thought was a tablet, yes. But I'd NEVER go Android, so, iPad.
But, then that's too expensive for just this, and a waste of an amazing tablet honestly.
So, I'll instead spend a fraction of what a tablet would cost and get a BIG screen.
I'll have a case for it too so it won't be such a hassle.

Now power: I took you guys' advice and ditched the Furman for a UPS as you can see there. Will add some weight but I suspect it'll be worth it, right.

Roger on the router. Will look at something stronger. I did get that little one for now, because I'm not even sure we will need a router for the small places we play, BUT I wanted to be a little more confident in the signal strength, so since I have this little one here already, I'll test it a bit.

As for how to hook it up, I wanted to do the snake, but then I'd need two longer leads on one end for the overheads, and then all those cables are ONLY usable as a bundle. Considering the pros and cons, I think I'll go with 8 separate cables, BUT I'll zip tie or tape them together for use.
The unit will be right beside my drums so 5m cables all around should suffice.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 11, 2019, 07:03:45 pm
Ok, let's answer the questions.
The first thought was a tablet, yes. But I'd NEVER go Android, so, iPad.
But, then that's too expensive for just this, and a waste of an amazing tablet honestly.
So, I'll instead spend a fraction of what a tablet would cost and get a BIG screen.
I'll have a case for it too so it won't be such a hassle.

Now power: I took you guys' advice and ditched the Furman for a UPS as you can see there. Will add some weight but I suspect it'll be worth it, right.

Roger on the router. Will look at something stronger. I did get that little one for now, because I'm not even sure we will need a router for the small places we play, BUT I wanted to be a little more confident in the signal strength, so since I have this little one here already, I'll test it a bit.

As for how to hook it up, I wanted to do the snake, but then I'd need two longer leads on one end for the overheads, and then all those cables are ONLY usable as a bundle. Considering the pros and cons, I think I'll go with 8 separate cables, BUT I'll zip tie or tape them together for use.
The unit will be right beside my drums so 5m cables all around should suffice.

You don't need a router at all, you need an Access Point.  You aren't connecting to another network so you are not routing any traffic.  Hence the router part goes unused.  Save your money and just get an enterprise class AP like the Ubiquity Unifi 

Why would you never use an Android?  Open Source rocks. you like spending more money for the Apple logo?  This message is brought to you on an IBM Thinkpad X1 Carbon running Fedora Linux. 

Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on July 11, 2019, 07:25:14 pm
You don't need a router at all, you need an Access Point.  You aren't connecting to another network so you are not routing any traffic.  Hence the router part goes unused.  Save your money and just get an enterprise class AP like the Ubiquity Unifi 

Why would you never use an Android?  Open Source rocks. you like spending more money for the Apple logo?  This message is brought to you on an IBM Thinkpad X1 Carbon running Fedora Linux.

Yes. I like paying more money for the Apple logo. And I'm in their ecosystem. Mac Pro, Apple Watch, iPhone. It already hurts my cells, thinking about adding a WINDOWS PC to my audio rack. I might actually put a mac mini instead, if I can muster the . But, Mac OSX isn't built for use with a touch interface, so... that's tricky. I REALLY don't want to add a keyboard and a mouse to the setup... UNLESS it was something like this:

(https://www.racksolutions.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/3//9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/8/180-5551_2_.png)

That was actually the first idea I had when I started thinking about this rack. It's a 1U, rugged, secure as hell, compact, just GREAT solution.
But, I want a shallow case, so that won't fit. Also it's heavy. Also it's expensive. Also it needs a computer, which I'm not getting. Yet. Also it'd be probably really hard to find a 1U KVM like that with a touchscreen that's in the list of approved touchscreens for use with the Ui24R.

But, at home I actually use Windows more than MacOS because I'm a gamer, and I stream on Twitch and shit, so can't really escape the PC. But Android? Just no.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Dave Garoutte on July 11, 2019, 10:21:07 pm
If you end up going Ipad, Get a one or two generation old one on ebay.  WAY cheaper.  The processing is all done in the UI, so you don't need much.
It will run on pretty much anything, even your phone.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 12, 2019, 04:23:21 am
But Android? Just no.

Why?  Android is a great OS.  Been using Mixing Station for 5 years or so on a Galaxy Tab and it is an awesome app.  Android is stable, extensible etc.

I suppose you don't like Linux either? 

Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on July 12, 2019, 09:20:38 am
Why?  Android is a great OS.  Been using Mixing Station for 5 years or so on a Galaxy Tab and it is an awesome app.  Android is stable, extensible etc.

I suppose you don't like Linux either?

Because, for one thing, it's different on every device you run it based on manufacturer. If you ever need support, or a quick tip or something, odds are nobody around you is gonna have the same phone, therefore not the same version of android.
Second, the number of apps available is ridiculously smaller. Many, many apps are only available for iOS.
Third, every app that has an iOS version, is better in the iOS version. The Android ones are always buggier, with less features, slower, you name it. Very few exceptions here.
And then there's the device quality. Android devices are cheap for a reason. And it's not just the absence of the Apple logo.

I'm ok using my Windows PC because I was a PC user before I was a Mac one, so I've been building and configuring PCs since the days where having a Floppy disk drive was cutting edge... I had one on my 386 PS/1 system, with 40mb HDD and 4mb RAM (LOL).
But man, when I got my first Mac... I wished really hard I'd been on that side longer.
I still pray gaming becomes just as widespread on macs so that I can fully switch again.

But for audio stuff? Situations where I really need things to JUST WORK and not crash at all? Apple all the way.

As for Linux, I have nothing against it, except the stuff I was talking about with Android above. If you want to tinker with your OS, customize it to your heart's content, and your idea of fun is to be on your own whenever you have any issues, then hey, Linux is great!
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Dave Garoutte on July 12, 2019, 11:53:39 am
Well, I have several apps that my friends can't find for the Apple-verse.
For a small developer with a limited market, dealing with Apple can be a no-go.
To me it's not about the number of apps, just the right ones.
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 12, 2019, 04:51:09 pm
Because, for one thing, it's different on every device you run it based on manufacturer. If you ever need support, or a quick tip or something, odds are nobody around you is gonna have the same phone, therefore not the same version of android.
Second, the number of apps available is ridiculously smaller. Many, many apps are only available for iOS.
Third, every app that has an iOS version, is better in the iOS version. The Android ones are always buggier, with less features, slower, you name it. Very few exceptions here.
And then there's the device quality. Android devices are cheap for a reason. And it's not just the absence of the Apple logo.

I'm ok using my Windows PC because I was a PC user before I was a Mac one, so I've been building and configuring PCs since the days where having a Floppy disk drive was cutting edge... I had one on my 386 PS/1 system, with 40mb HDD and 4mb RAM (LOL).
But man, when I got my first Mac... I wished really hard I'd been on that side longer.
I still pray gaming becomes just as widespread on macs so that I can fully switch again.

But for audio stuff? Situations where I really need things to JUST WORK and not crash at all? Apple all the way.

As for Linux, I have nothing against it, except the stuff I was talking about with Android above. If you want to tinker with your OS, customize it to your heart's content, and your idea of fun is to be on your own whenever you have any issues, then hey, Linux is great!

Damn, you haven't just drank the Apple Kool-Aid you have immersed yourself in it and possibly aspirated some.

First off the Android Play store has 1.5M apps to Apple's 1.2M apps.  Your statement about app quality is dubious at best.  The Mixing Station app is native Android and the Apple version is less mature.

Apple makes it much harder for small developers than Android to contribute to the community.

Certainly the top apps Facebook, Twitter, Instagram et al all have feature parity between the two platforms.

Android phones are not all inexpensive either.  Have you priced a Pixel?  I have an LG V30 and it is a $900 list price phone that is every bit as well made as any Foxcon Apple product. 

Same thing with laptops, I have an IBM X1 Carbon and it is nicer than the current Macbook Pro, which I have to buy because we have them in our rental inventory for video and Ableton work.  I run Linux on my laptop and you haven't ventured a comment on that.

Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Rodrigo C Goncalves on July 14, 2019, 03:04:54 am
Damn, you haven't just drank the Apple Kool-Aid you have immersed yourself in it and possibly aspirated some.

First off the Android Play store has 1.5M apps to Apple's 1.2M apps.  Your statement about app quality is dubious at best.  The Mixing Station app is native Android and the Apple version is less mature.

Apple makes it much harder for small developers than Android to contribute to the community.

Certainly the top apps Facebook, Twitter, Instagram et al all have feature parity between the two platforms.

Android phones are not all inexpensive either.  Have you priced a Pixel?  I have an LG V30 and it is a $900 list price phone that is every bit as well made as any Foxcon Apple product. 

Same thing with laptops, I have an IBM X1 Carbon and it is nicer than the current Macbook Pro, which I have to buy because we have them in our rental inventory for video and Ableton work.  I run Linux on my laptop and you haven't ventured a comment on that.

None of that matters because, EVERY single argument to either side is going to be what's better for whoever is typing the argument. Apple is better for me. The end.
Now that we've sidetracked a bit from the topic, let me pull it back:

I have news about the rig I'm ending up getting.

Now it'll be:

UPS (https://smile.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007VHDKNY/?coliid=I1NF12Q9AMWSMQ&colid=2RCP09BVH6FGG&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)
Touchscreen monitor (https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01NH5KUCX/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Rack VESA mount (https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002D1GG0C/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Rack case (https://www.thomann.de/gb/skb_r106w_rolling_compact_rig.htm)
Ui24R (https://www.thomann.de/gb/soundcraft_ui24.htm)
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Dave Garoutte on July 15, 2019, 01:32:18 am
Cool, Have fun! :D
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 15, 2019, 11:13:38 am
Because, for one thing, it's different on every device you run it based on manufacturer. If you ever need support, or a quick tip or something, odds are nobody around you is gonna have the same phone, therefore not the same version of android.
Second, the number of apps available is ridiculously smaller. Many, many apps are only available for iOS.
Third, every app that has an iOS version, is better in the iOS version. The Android ones are always buggier, with less features, slower, you name it. Very few exceptions here.
And then there's the device quality. Android devices are cheap for a reason. And it's not just the absence of the Apple logo.

I'm ok using my Windows PC because I was a PC user before I was a Mac one, so I've been building and configuring PCs since the days where having a Floppy disk drive was cutting edge... I had one on my 386 PS/1 system, with 40mb HDD and 4mb RAM (LOL).
But man, when I got my first Mac... I wished really hard I'd been on that side longer.
I still pray gaming becomes just as widespread on macs so that I can fully switch again.

But for audio stuff? Situations where I really need things to JUST WORK and not crash at all? Apple all the way.

As for Linux, I have nothing against it, except the stuff I was talking about with Android above. If you want to tinker with your OS, customize it to your heart's content, and your idea of fun is to be on your own whenever you have any issues, then hey, Linux is great!

If an app works on an Android device then support is a non-issue.  The device largely either works or it does not (like most electronic stuff).  Support comes in when it doesn't work or there is some OS tweak that breaks an app.  So far, owning Samsung Galaxy phones and tablets from Google Nexus, ZTE, and Asus, I've not experienced *apps* working differently (display resolution is the biggest factor in affecting the look/feel of an app, but that's not actually breaking the app).

Your non-use of Android is a personal choice, just like my choice to NEVER own any Apple product unless required for my work.  I had a personal run-in with some asshole from Cupertino, of whose feet the sycophants lined up to kiss.  I think his name was Steve... at any rate, his douche-bagness was sufficient to delay my event in another part of the public facility and made the firm I worked for look bad to its client.  Eventually I had to buy a iPad to run Midas Mixtender.  That's all it was used for, not a game, song, or video on it.  Never set up an iTunes (RIP) account.

My advice is to use what works for your business/profession and get whatever tickles your fancy for personal use.  If those are the same, fine.  Do not presume there is some perceived, inherent superiority or you'll by buying Bose PA....
Title: Re: Wireless drums?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 15, 2019, 02:33:27 pm
None of that matters because, EVERY single argument to either side is going to be what's better for whoever is typing the argument. Apple is better for me. The end.
Now that we've sidetracked a bit from the topic, let me pull it back:

I have news about the rig I'm ending up getting.

Now it'll be:

UPS (https://smile.amazon.co.uk/dp/B007VHDKNY/?coliid=I1NF12Q9AMWSMQ&colid=2RCP09BVH6FGG&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)
Touchscreen monitor (https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01NH5KUCX/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Rack VESA mount (https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002D1GG0C/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Rack case (https://www.thomann.de/gb/skb_r106w_rolling_compact_rig.htm)
Ui24R (https://www.thomann.de/gb/soundcraft_ui24.htm)

Looks like you got your rig speced out well so Apple bashing is a lot more fun!