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Title: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: dave briar on May 30, 2019, 11:01:00 am
Yesterday’s post regarding the new firmware for the A&H SQ series included the following:

  V1.4.0
  Additional Features:
  New add-ons available: DeEsser, Multiband Compressors
  (MultiBD3/MultiBD4), Dynamic EQ (DynEQ4)

I’ve always (naively?) assumed that the terms “Multiband compressor” and “Dynamic EQ” were two ways of describing the same functionality. No? 
Title: Re: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: Art Welter on May 30, 2019, 11:12:13 am
I’ve always (naively?) assumed that the terms “Multiband compressor” and “Dynamic EQ” were two ways of describing the same functionality. No?
No.

Here is a good explanation of the differences:

https://www.sonible.com/blog/multiband-compressor-adaptive-dynamic-eq/



Title: Re: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 30, 2019, 11:17:09 am
Yesterday’s post regarding the new firmware for the A&H SQ series included the following:

  V1.4.0
  Additional Features:
  New add-ons available: DeEsser, Multiband Compressors
  (MultiBD3/MultiBD4), Dynamic EQ (DynEQ4)

I’ve always (naively?) assumed that the terms “Multiband compressor” and “Dynamic EQ” were two ways of describing the same functionality. No?

Dynamic EQ is probably meant to emulate the BSS DPR901.  A decent description of use is here:

https://www.waves.com/how-and-when-to-use-dynamic-eq

A discussion of multiband compression (Wave C6 - I love that plugin) is here:

https://www.waves.com/plugins/c6-multiband-compressor

Lots of stuff on U-toob, too, and many articles online about multiband compression in particular.

Although they have some overlapping capabilities, ultimately they are very different beasts.

ps. Was typing while Art posted; the link in his post is well written (hint).
Title: Re: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: dave briar on May 30, 2019, 12:06:22 pm
Dynamic EQ is probably meant to emulate the BSS DPR901.  A decent description of use is here:

https://www.waves.com/how-and-when-to-use-dynamic-eq

A discussion of multiband compression (Wave C6 - I love that plugin) is here:

https://www.waves.com/plugins/c6-multiband-compressor

Lots of stuff on U-toob, too, and many articles online about multiband compression in particular.

Although they have some overlapping capabilities, ultimately they are very different beasts.

ps. Was typing while Art posted; the link in his post is well written (hint).
Thanks guys. I love learning here. 

This sentence proved most salient for me:

But whereas multiband compressors use crossover filters, which affect fairly broad frequency areas, a dynamic EQ allows you to specify the precise frequencies you want to boost (through expansion) or attenuate (through compression).


Title: Re: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 30, 2019, 12:23:05 pm
Thanks guys. I love learning here. 

This sentence proved most salient for me:

But whereas multiband compressors use crossover filters, which affect fairly broad frequency areas, a dynamic EQ allows you to specify the precise frequencies you want to boost (through expansion) or attenuate (through compression).

That's a generalization that ignores the fact that EQs have filters that tend to have lower Q than crossovers, so keep that in mind.
Title: Re: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on May 30, 2019, 12:37:59 pm
Inventing myriad ways to screw up the sound....

JR
Title: Re: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on May 30, 2019, 12:58:56 pm
Inventing myriad ways to screw up the sound....

JR

I think it's just shifting the line between "mixer" and "producer" a bit. I remember watching a video of a well-regarded FOH engineer that was going through their signal chain for processing a snare drum. The height of excitement, I know.
Harmonic exciters (producing additional overtones), a couple of different compressors, and a few other bits, and the sound was very far removed from what the mic was actually picking up.

IMO, when it comes to working with decent musicians, the sound they're producing is the sound they want to put out to the audience. Throw a few natural-sounding mics into sensible positions and you're almost there.

Chris
Title: Re: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: dave briar on May 30, 2019, 02:17:33 pm
That's a generalization that ignores the fact that EQs have filters that tend to have lower Q than crossovers, so keep that in mind.
Ok, that makes sense. So is there a use case be that would favor a C6 over a F6 assuming you had both available?
Title: Re: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on May 30, 2019, 02:28:13 pm
Ok, that makes sense. So is there a use case be that would favor a C6 over a F6 assuming you had both available?
Perhaps describe the problem(s) you are trying to fix.

Multi-band compression has a long history dating back to the FM radio loudness wars when station engineers tried to be the loudest station on the radio. The early stuff used loudspeaker crossovers and simple limiters. Crude but made them sound different and louder. Far from good practice.

Dynamic EQ is a newer (but not new) animal trying to force a desired target spectral balance. I can imagine some future DSP based mixer that can mimic any result you ask for... (make me sound like Madonna  :o ).  Luckily for me, I should already be dead by then.  8)

JR 
Title: Re: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 30, 2019, 02:31:34 pm
Perhaps describe the problem(s) you are trying to fix.

Multi-band compression has a long history dating back to the FM radio loudness wars when station engineers tried to be the loudest station on the radio. The early stuff used loudspeaker crossovers and simple limiters. Crude but made them sound different and louder. Far from good practice.

Dynamic EQ is a newer (but not new) animal trying to force a desired target spectral balance. I can imagine some future DSP based mixer that can mimic any result you ask for... (make me sound like Madonna  :o ).  Luckily for me, I should already be dead by then.  8)

JR

Then not only will you sound like Madonna, you'll smell like her, too!

Okay, that was a cheap shot... you'll smell like her cologne. :D
Title: Re: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: dave briar on May 30, 2019, 03:10:12 pm
Perhaps describe the problem(s) you are trying to fix.
Mine was mostly an academic question as I don’t have access to either  :-\.  The main thing I can see using it for is the classic taming a female vocal up near 2,800. I mainly mix whatever band gets booked and so like to keep it simple but see that need commonly.  In a more sophisticated role I’ve seen a C6 used on an instrument group with the sidechain trigger of (I believe) an entire vocal group to help carve out space for the vocals.  That would be interesting to play with for the few bands I mix repeatedly and have mature show files for.
Title: Re: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on May 30, 2019, 05:06:19 pm
Perhaps describe the problem(s) you are trying to fix.


I am not the OP but the problem I have been trying to fix is when doing a musical theater show there are times when the teenage girls all singing together get loud and screechy. The loud part is supposed to be that way the screechy part isn’t, it is due to lack of training and talent in general. I have been using 2 Midas M32 mixers for these shows and I have used the Combinator in these mixers which seems to be a multiband compressor and it helps but I think I could do better with a Dynamic EQ instead. But that is not available in these mixers.

I feel I am in general a purist and always shoot for what goes in is what comes out. I have never felt the need for a Dynamic EQ or a Multiband compressor in any concert work I do just in the theatrical shows.   
Title: Re: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on May 31, 2019, 01:07:20 pm
I am not the OP but the problem I have been trying to fix is when doing a musical theater show there are times when the teenage girls all singing together get loud and screechy. The loud part is supposed to be that way the screechy part isn’t, it is due to lack of training and talent in general. I have been using 2 Midas M32 mixers for these shows and I have used the Combinator in these mixers which seems to be a multiband compressor and it helps but I think I could do better with a Dynamic EQ instead. But that is not available in these mixers.

I feel I am in general a purist and always shoot for what goes in is what comes out. I have never felt the need for a Dynamic EQ or a Multiband compressor in any concert work I do just in the theatrical shows.   

May I ask why you think you'd be better off with a MBC than a DEQ?
Title: Re: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on May 31, 2019, 01:27:26 pm
I am not the OP but the problem I have been trying to fix is when doing a musical theater show there are times when the teenage girls all singing together get loud and screechy. The loud part is supposed to be that way the screechy part isn’t, it is due to lack of training and talent in general. I have been using 2 Midas M32 mixers for these shows and I have used the Combinator in these mixers which seems to be a multiband compressor and it helps but I think I could do better with a Dynamic EQ instead. But that is not available in these mixers.
I do not recognize "screechy" as an objective technical description.  ;D You suggest it has something to do with technique and experience so can I speculate it is dissonance from poor harmony? I don't know how to mitigate that with dynamic level or eq processing.

Is it possible to give the best singer in the group more level and the lesser singers less level, to reduce the interference which is worst case for all getting equal level. Of course this is just a WAG. Maybe you could capture a multitrack recording of the crew and mess around offline with alternate remedies.
Quote
I feel I am in general a purist and always shoot for what goes in is what comes out. I have never felt the need for a Dynamic EQ or a Multiband compressor in any concert work I do just in the theatrical shows.   
Good luck but some things are difficult to fix even with technology..

JR

PS: FWIW last century I speculated about "smart" mixing systems that could read the mind of inexperienced operators, and give them what they didn't even know they wanted. EQ and mix levels would target a template of some common (good) musical mixes.  Of course this was impractical, because entry level inexperienced operators are unwilling and incapable of paying the premium prices such processing power would require. 
Title: Re: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on May 31, 2019, 03:07:03 pm
May I ask why you think you'd be better off with a MBC than a DEQ?

I said the complete opposite of that. I said "I think I could do better with a Dynamic EQ instead."
Title: Re: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on May 31, 2019, 03:27:09 pm
I do not recognize "screechy" as an objective technical description.  ;D You suggest it has something to do with technique and experience so can I speculate it is dissonance from poor harmony? I don't know how to mitigate that with dynamic level or eq processing.

Is it possible to give the best singer in the group more level and the lesser singers less level, to reduce the interference which is worst case for all getting equal level. Of course this is just a WAG. Maybe you could capture a multitrack recording of the crew and mess around offline with alternate remedies. Good luck but some things are difficult to fix even with technology..

JR

PS: FWIW last century I speculated about "smart" mixing systems that could read the mind of inexperienced operators, and give them what they didn't even know they wanted. EQ and mix levels would target a template of some common (good) musical mixes.  Of course this was impractical, because entry level inexperienced operators are unwilling and incapable of paying the premium prices such processing power would require.

From Websters Dictionary -
screech - /skrēCH/ - a shrill, high pitched, harsh shriek or sound. screechy adj.

If you had ever had to deal with a bunch of teenage girls in some of the musicals I have done you would probably understood what I mean. Or if you were ever around an exuberant bunch of teenage girls you would know what I am trying to describe. I don't want the sound system to linearly amplify this sound so I feel a dynamic EQ could help tame it better. If I don't do something like I have recently I get complaints from some people in the audience. And it really is uncomfortable to have to listen to.

Edit to add: They have NO control of their dynamics, this is the lack of training. At these times they are just screaming (screeching) at the top of their lungs.
Title: Re: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on May 31, 2019, 03:42:48 pm
if it is just HF,  de-essers have been around forever... most are just a fast attack/fast release wideband limiter with a bandpass in the side chain making it responsive to just HF content.   

Maybe take the teenage girls out drinking and smoking the night before so their vocal cords thicken up and make their voices lower.  :o

I repeat maybe grab a multi track recording of the regular suspects and experiment offline.

JR
Title: Re: Multiband comp vs Dynamic EQ?
Post by: Dan Richardson on June 03, 2019, 10:57:00 am
I am not the OP but the problem I have been trying to fix is when doing a musical theater show there are times when the teenage girls all singing together get loud and screechy. The loud part is supposed to be that way the screechy part isn’t, it is due to lack of training and talent in general. I have been using 2 Midas M32 mixers for these shows and I have used the Combinator in these mixers which seems to be a multiband compressor and it helps but I think I could do better with a Dynamic EQ instead.

That second highest band in the Combinator is a useful tool. On the LS-9, I would enable a de-esser and pull the threshold and the frequency down.