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Title: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on May 22, 2019, 06:33:34 pm
Update and change of plans.

Just found out today that we are not gonna use the Bose system, but the plan is to use my JBL PRX700 rig along with the JBL Eon600 rig (615s over 618s) they used last year.

I think on the subwoofer front we'll have a fighting chance of the different model JBLs playing nice together.  And If not we can still do a dual PA setup.

Additional good news, we will have someone running sound from FOH. I feel I can now be less mentally invested in the setup and let him do his thing on the day.

-----------------------

Original Post:

Got a community show coming up next month. Big space outside. No budget for hiring in production. We will be limited to using the equipment we have available, which is a Bose F1 system (2 subs and 2 tops) and a JBL PRX 712 and 718xlf system (2 of each).

I'd like to pile all that gear up with the intention of getting the most summing possible with the least interference. However, neither the differently branded subs (JBL: front-loaded vs. Bose: band-pass) nor the tops (JBL: 12" plus CD horn vs. Bose: 12" plus mini line array) are likely to play well together.

The bandleader suggested we just put one of each cab on each side and daisy chain them from the Main L&R. I'm not convinced that will give us the best results.

My thought is to place like subs together - JBLs on one side and Bose on the other. And then use the two different top types to cover different areas of the audience. The Bose tops would point out a bit use as an outfill of sorts. Then the JBL tops placed as front-fill. I'd try to separate and/or splay the tops to keep the interaction to a minimum. I'd use separate bus sends to control each system (ex: Bose out of Main L&R, JBL from Aux bus) so I'd have discrete control over level, EQ, etc. Mixer does not have output delay so using delay stacks is not a option.

We will not have time to experiment with different layouts before the show.

Any thoughts on the above configuration? Or other suggestions given the equipment limitations?

----------------

I initially left out some info about the band:

We are a function band, so music is everything from classic rock to Motown to modern pop to country. Instrumentation is guitar, bass, drums, 3 vocals. And backing tracks with keys, horns, etc.

There is no stage volume, band is all on in-ears, no amps and electronic drums.

Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on May 22, 2019, 06:35:29 pm
View of stage from back of audience.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on May 22, 2019, 06:37:00 pm
View of audience from stage.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 22, 2019, 06:44:13 pm
View of audience from stage.

Who puts on these events and doesn't budget for production?  The same people that wonder why their events are poorly attended?

Under no circumstances will the sum of these speakers be more than the whole of the JBL system.  You can use the bose for delay fills but you need something that can properly delay those speakers.  You also can't delay subs so they are fills for vocals and other mid/hf content.

You are going to have to be very cognizant of the stage level.  If you get too loud those JBL's will not be able to get on top of the bass/guitar amps and some of the drum kit (assume rock band, if quieter style music you will be in better shape). 

If it is a rock band you will only have enough bass to cover the people 20-30' in front of the stage.

How is the power at that location?  Do you have enough proper, safe and legal power cable?
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on May 22, 2019, 06:59:08 pm
Sorry, left out some info.

There is no stage volume, band is all on in-ears, no amps and electronic drums. IMO this is actually a worse scenario because the PA has to do all the heavy lifting.

We are a function band, so everything from classic rock to motown to modern pop to country.

They regularly have shows here, both local acts and touring, sponsored by the City/Chamber of Commerce. There is stage power and even lighting set up.

Looks like they brought in production for the Market Street Festival on May 3, which featured the Cleverly's. See pic below.

The "Sounds of Summer" event my band is playing features local acts (we are the only ones on the bill for our performance date). I don't know any details about the execution of the series of events other than where it is and we need to bring our own PA.

(https://scontent.fatl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/60438672_2536968779669757_6741784003885400064_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-1.fna&oh=3d0986028069f8225fe442992d8bceef&oe=5D65C37E)



Who puts on these events and doesn't budget for production?  The same people that wonder why their events are poorly attended?

Under no circumstances will the sum of these speakers be more than the whole of the JBL system.  You can use the bose for delay fills but you need something that can properly delay those speakers.  You also can't delay subs so they are fills for vocals and other mid/hf content.

You are going to have to be very cognizant of the stage level.  If you get too loud those JBL's will not be able to get on top of the bass/guitar amps and some of the drum kit (assume rock band, if quieter style music you will be in better shape). 

If it is a rock band you will only have enough bass to cover the people 20-30' in front of the stage.

How is the power at that location?  Do you have enough proper, safe and legal power cable?
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Caleb Dueck on May 22, 2019, 09:22:31 pm
Sorry, left out some info.

There is no stage volume, band is all on in-ears, no amps and electronic drums. IMO this is actually a worse scenario because the PA has to do all the heavy lifting.

We are a function band, so everything from classic rock to motown to modern pop to country.

They regularly have shows here, both local acts and touring. There is stage power and even lighting set up.

Looks like they brought in production for the Market Street Festival on May 3, which featured the Cleverly's. See pic below.

The "Sounds of Summer" event my band is playing features local acts (we are the only ones on the bill for our performance date). I don't know any details about the execution of the series of events other than where it is and we need to bring our own PA.

(https://scontent.fatl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/60438672_2536968779669757_6741784003885400064_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-1.fna&oh=3d0986028069f8225fe442992d8bceef&oe=5D65C37E)

You can do a dual PA.  Each side to have both a JBL and a Bose.  Send the vocals to one system and the band to the other, I'd start with vocals in Bose and band in JBL.  Bose "subs" likely won't get any use.

Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Chris Hindle on May 22, 2019, 11:02:28 pm
You can do a dual PA.  Each side to have both a JBL and a Bose.  Send the vocals to one system and the band to the other, I'd start with vocals in Bose and band in JBL.  Bose "subs" likely won't get any use.
+100
Best deployment of the available gear.
Chris.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: brian maddox on May 22, 2019, 11:17:35 pm
You can do a dual PA.  Each side to have both a JBL and a Bose.  Send the vocals to one system and the band to the other, I'd start with vocals in Bose and band in JBL.  Bose "subs" likely won't get any use.

Agreed.  This will be the best shade of porcine lipstick to use.  Might not even be terrible....
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on May 22, 2019, 11:51:00 pm
I really like the idea of a dual PA.

Might consider using the Bose for vocals and backing tracks. The tracks don't need a ton of sub reinforcement.

Then the JBLs for drums, bass guitar and electric guitar.

Any thoughts on stacking the JBL subs together for the extra gain? (See pic below) Or being outside with such large distance to the audience will it not matter?

I know that those single 18s seem to perform a lot better when they are coupled, both inside and out.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on May 22, 2019, 11:52:51 pm
Or to keep it more "aesthetically pleasing", which I believe is what the bandleader will prefer. Pic below.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Mark Dawson on May 23, 2019, 02:02:56 am
Use the JBL.       Leave the Bose far away from the venue.         Two PRX tops over the subs will work ok for your application.   

Adding the Bose will make the overall sound crappier, and wonít make it Ďlouderí


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 23, 2019, 02:07:40 am
Use the JBL.       Leave the Bose far away from the venue.         Two PRX tops over the subs will work ok for your application.   

Adding the Bose will make the overall sound crappier, and wonít make it Ďlouderí


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I lean towards this but the folks that gave you the dual PA idea or very experienced.

With the silent stage you have a fighting chance.

I was hoping my little poke you could get some funds from the organizers to at least rent you some decent stacks.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on May 23, 2019, 04:13:32 am
You can do a dual PA.  Each side to have both a JBL and a Bose.  Send the vocals to one system and the band to the other, I'd start with vocals in Bose and band in JBL.  Bose "subs" likely won't get any use.

+1.
With that set of equipment, it's about the only thing that'll be worthwhile IMO.

I'd centre-cluster the subs because it's a little more output. When subs are separate, cancellations occur and that's a net loss of LF energy. Putting them close together avoids those cancellations.


If attendance is high, or the audience is far away, this might well be a matter of making sure the PA survives the gig.

Chris
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Kevin McDonough on May 23, 2019, 05:47:35 am
hey

yep agree put both JBL subs together centre stage, they'll sum together and cover the ground as smoothly as possible, should sound fine.

Only thing I'd say is I'd be tempted to put the jbl tops up nice and high on stands and use them to cover the bulk of the audience. If they're up above everyone's heads the sound will carry pretty far. Won't be rock concert volume, but will carry through the audience.

Use the Bose then right at the front of the stage to cover the first few rows, until the JBL takes over.

Unless you've got the ability to delay things and line the phase of everything up it wont be perfect, but would be alright for what it is.

k


Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Roland Clarke on May 23, 2019, 06:28:00 am
+1.
With that set of equipment, it's about the only thing that'll be worthwhile IMO.

I'd centre-cluster the subs because it's a little more output. When subs are separate, cancellations occur and that's a net loss of LF energy. Putting them close together avoids those cancellations.


If attendance is high, or the audience is far away, this might well be a matter of making sure the PA survives the gig.

Chris

Then the cancellations move to the crossover region, itís a yin yang scenario.  By the look of the stage centre subs will be untidy.  I donít think itís going to make much difference.  This is a job for at least a couple of double 18ís (or equivalent) each side and a couple of high powered tops.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Jonathan Hole on May 23, 2019, 08:13:16 am
I echo the dual PA concept as your best chance and given the height of the "stage" I would use F1 tops for vocals and with the bottom of their "array" curved down or pushed in so you cover the crowd below.  If F1 is handling vocals you'll be able sing in front of speakers if needed, not worry about feedback due to limited freq response of those tops.  Vocals don't need subs, so I'd sum the Bose and JBL subs together for the band feed so you get as much low end as possible - just experiment not ideal but hey.  For that setting I think you have to stack left/right as another poster diagrammed, no space for center cluster and delay stacks just not practical looking at that venue.

Long term of course I'd consider selling it all and start building a more modular higher fidelity system that could scale for smaller outdoor gigs as needed. 

Post some pics and let us know how it goes!
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Mike Santarelli on May 23, 2019, 09:11:55 am
Use the JBL.       Leave the Bose far away from the venue.         Two PRX tops over the subs will work ok for your application.   

Adding the Bose will make the overall sound crappier, and wonít make it Ďlouderí


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree with Mark.

I've seen this situation a few times with little or no budget for sound and almost every time a single sub and top per side worked out just fine.  Yes, a big and full sounding system is awesome but without the budget don't sweat it.  Usually they don't want it screaming loud.  The people that want to hear will move closer.  I'd just make it sound good with one system and call it a day. You are not going to get much more from using two systems sharing the same source.  Dual PA will help but its not going have the impact of a larger system.  To get higher levels to the audience you may want to place the PA down on the ground level and crank the tops as high as you can safely get them. I'd also center cluster the subs.

If this a community event you will most likely have older attendees saying it's too loud no matter how soft or loud the pa is.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Mal Brown on May 23, 2019, 10:12:57 am
If it were me I would leave the Bose home...   

You guys booked a gig, knowing the venue, knowing you would have to provide sound and canít actually do a decent job of it while there is no doubt at least one local sound guy struggling to get by...  canít say I have sympathy for you.  Next time, quote enough to do the job right or pass...
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on May 23, 2019, 11:57:16 am
You guys booked a gig, knowing the venue, knowing you would have to provide sound and canít actually do a decent job of it while there is no doubt at least one local sound guy struggling to get by...  canít say I have sympathy for you.  Next time, quote enough to do the job right or pass...

Pretty harsh, Mal, and also pretty off base, IMO.

I am a sideman in this band, doing my best to help make it sound as good as it can in any given circumstance. I have no say over bookings or budgets. I don't control how much the client decides to pay the band for a given engagement or whether they provide production when it's obviously desperately needed.

This particular gig is one the band does yearly in their hometown to be able to play publicly for local friends and fans. We mostly do regional private corporate/wedding work. I'm sure the band is taking a big pay hit just to do the gig. Since us sidemen get our standard rate for the gig, I'm guessing that the show may even be a loss for the business. In any case the bandleaders see a net benefit to doing the gig, despite the financial and logistical limitations.

This gig is not part of some nefarious plan to take work from a local sound company. Hell, in he past I've been that struggling local sound guy..I can assure you that I would not fault a band for doing this gig with their own gear.

I don't know all the specifics, but to bring on sound I'd guess it would double or triple the budget. But the budget for this gig is fixed by the client - a non-profit community event organization funded in part by the City.

How exactly is what we're doing taking work from a struggling local sound guy?

Are you saying the band should pass on the gig as some kind of principled stand against local non-profits not providing a big enough audio budget for their community summer concert series?
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on May 23, 2019, 12:06:28 pm
The Bose PA is owned by the band. That's the main PA. I"m just a sideman. The JBL gear is mine that we've discussed using as supplemental PA for this particular gig.

I'm pretty positive there is nothing I could say that would make the band not want to use their Bose system.

Last year they did this gig (I was not with the band) they used the Bose PA along with a JBL EON600 system (tops over subs) and ran it all together off the L/R mains.

The plan is similar this year as well unless I can come up with a convincing reason not to do it that way.

If anyone has recommended talking points for a dual PA approach, or even not using the Bose PA, I'm all ears.

Use the JBL.       Leave the Bose far away from the venue.         Two PRX tops over the subs will work ok for your application.   

Adding the Bose will make the overall sound crappier, and wonít make it Ďlouderí
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Sean Zurbrick on May 23, 2019, 12:14:28 pm
Another vote to just use the JBLs. Vocals in the Bose will mean either:

1 - Nobody hears the vocals because the JBL will have much greater SPL capability and will stomp on the vocals

OR

2 - To get a good mix you'll have to bring down the volume of the JBLs so that the vocals remain the loudest thing in the mix, as they should be. This effectively lowers your overall output to what the Bose is capable of.


Most "concert in the park" formats I see are "band provides the PA". The production budget is part of the overall compensation. The problem is, the compensation is generally equivalent to a small bar gig. So you can either do the gig with your "bringing a knife to a gunfight" PA system and all walk away with the same profit as normal, or take a portion of your fee to bolster the production and chalk it up to giving the town a kick ass concert.

If it were me I'd either price out a local company to do it all, or try to rent another 2 tops and 2 subs on the same level as the JBL PRX system you have so you can double up the FOH. It won't be perfect as they aren't the best designs to splay 2 mains per side, but frankly it's probably better than what the audience is used to if this is the way the town usually books these types of shows.

The worst option, IMO, would be dragging every amp and speaker you can find and cobbling together a makeshift "wall of sound" system. So, if you do it yourself, just use what you're used to.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Steve Garris on May 23, 2019, 12:23:43 pm
FWIW, I've been doing a low-key, concert in the park event now for about 6 years. We set up a quick, portable system and bands play for 1.5 hours. Mostly rock cover bands, and not at concert levels. I've watched the event grow from 400 to 1000 over the years.

I started doing it with a simple PRX system like yours. After the first 2 years it grew, and I purchased an SRX system for a little more capability, but the PRX system did the job nicely. I too do not recommend mixing those 2 PA's. I do suggest that you have a dedicated guy out front mixing the band. Is this a possibility?

Picture here shows the PRX system. I tried doing a mono sub, but the results were not as good, poorly balanced, so I stick with dual mono with tops on sticks.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Sean Zurbrick on May 23, 2019, 01:26:30 pm
Same here. 2 years in a row we did the 4th of July fireworks concert for a suburb of Columbus, OH. Acceptable $ for the band but we had to provide all production.  A few thousand people in front of us with a few more thousand in ear shot around the park.

It's all about expectations. I found out who had played there in the past, what those bands used for a PA, and knew I'd be able to improve on that with what I could fit in my 5x8 trailer. So I just doubled up my RCF PA and center clustered the 4 subs. No, it wasn't the ideal system, but the folks in charge said it was the best sound they could remember and carried to the other side of the park where the rides were, and hired us a few weeks later for the next year.

Here's a pic of the stage and modest PA (circa 2010)

https://photos.app.goo.gl/prBt6tmbQCwD95Pa9 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/prBt6tmbQCwD95Pa9)
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Craig Leerman on May 23, 2019, 01:52:51 pm
I would use the JBLs as the main PA and put the subs together in the center to get some extra dB.  Then I would place the Bose system outside the main PA and point them off to the sides to cover a wider area. If folks want to hear they usually sit in front of the stage. With the Bose you will get a wider area of coverage so folks can congregate off to the sides.

I would not mix the 2 systems together because they are different.

Craig
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on May 23, 2019, 04:25:37 pm
A lot of valuable input, I really appeciate it.

The layout of the venue makes it difficult to apply some of the ideas. I'll try to be descriptive as possible, and you can reference the pics I attached in the first couple of posts in the thread.

The Stage area is at the top of steps. The PA is typically positioned SR and SL. The horizontal distance from the 'stage lip' down the steps to the beginning of the audience area is at least 30'. So system SPL will be down ~20db before we even reach the first pair of ears.

There is no place at the front of the stage to place coupled subwoofers, unless they are placed at one side of the stage, or they are placed at the bottom of the steps - 30' away from the rest of the PA (which makes no sense).

It's possible to place the entire PA at the bottom of the steps, just a few feet from the front on the audience (and on the same horizontal plane). See pic below.

Again, it will be over 30' away from the performers. We do not have a way to apply delay to the speakers (Mixer is a Behringer XR18). However, the stage is silent (no amps, no acoustic drums, all on in-ears) except for the natural level of the vocals. Not sure if this option is even worth considering. It will provide much more SPL to the audience area, but the distance from the stage may cause more as yet unidentified issues than it's worth.

We will not have a tech to run sound from FOH during the show. We will soundcheck from out from using wireless and iPads, but it will be a set it and forget it after first downbeat.
-------------

Options:

A - Use both JBL and Bose systems together set up on the wings of the stage. All speakers driven from the main LR mixer outputs. This is the planned set up unless I can convince band otherwise.
B - Use both systems, run in dual mono set up on stage wings. JBL can to the heavy lifting (instruments), Bose can handle the vocals and tracks. Each system to be driven discretely from their own output bus.
C - Use just the JBL's on the stage wings, leave the Bose in the truck. <<bandleader is unlikely to go for this option.

D, E, F - Any of the above options, but placing the PA at audience level, ~30 in front of the band but directly in front of the audience.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on May 23, 2019, 05:31:47 pm
Is the concrete pad at the bottom of the stairs big enough for the band? I'd be temped to setup there  and maybe build a temporary drum riser from a couple pallets and a sheet or two of plywood setup so the kit sits back on the first step... just to create a little more room if necessary.  And run the PA L and R but spay the Bose system hard L and R for added coverage, setup like this right in the audience will help with SPL but hurt coverage unless the two systems are splayed some.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: brian maddox on May 23, 2019, 06:06:50 pm
....

We do not have a way to apply delay to the speakers (Mixer is a Behringer XR18).

...

Don't want to derail the thread, but just for the added info.  You CAN delay the output of an XR18 by inserting a Stereo delay on your output buss and setting the mix to 100 percent and the feedback to zero.  I've done exactly this when using these mixers for tiny broadcast events to time align for lip sync.  Works just fine.

[Back to our regularly scheduled broadcast....]
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on May 23, 2019, 06:09:25 pm
Is the concrete pad at the bottom of the stairs big enough for the band? I'd be temped to setup there  and maybe build a temporary drum riser from a couple pallets and a sheet or two of plywood setup so the kit sits back on the first step... just to create a little more room if necessary.  And run the PA L and R but spay the Bose system hard L and R for added coverage, setup like this right in the audience will help with SPL but hurt coverage unless the two systems are splayed some.
I thought of that too. It seems like the concrete pad is definitely big enough. My guess is that bands don't set up there, because (in the voice of a hypthetical event organizer) "why would you set up down here, we got a big stage up there with lights at the top of the steps?"

Lights are an issue too since we'll be playing as it gets dark. We could set up a small, lighting set up but it will be very minimal compared to the system that's set up over the stage.

I'll suggest it as an option. I don't know about putting together a drum riser, we'd have to see what people in the band have laying around. My guess is it'll be a tough sell (both setting up on the pad and trying to put together a drum riser) since the band's tendency will be to do things they same as they've done at this gig in the past.

Here are a couple more pics of the space.

This is from the back of the stage during a performance of the Cleverlys earlier this month. Whatever audio production was provided for that show is not being provided for ours (but AFAIK, the lights are permanent).

(https://scontent.fatl1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/60342539_2534778579888777_8965022718843944960_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-2.fna&oh=7470e6eab2a1ab3747f06e2b7bc389b0&oe=5D95C754)

Here's another shot of the audience at that show, perspective is from off of stage right. Note the concrete pad. Also note the closest audience member is probably at least 50-60' from the PA, which is out of view of the picture to the left.

(https://scontent.fatl1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/60670834_2534780226555279_705576376983355392_o.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-2.fna&oh=f9125ab1ac57ad1e709ae6d1611b4f11&oe=5D52CFBA)
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on May 23, 2019, 06:38:35 pm
How many outputs are available on the XR18? IOW what is left after you do the IEMs on it?
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on May 23, 2019, 06:46:04 pm
How many outputs are available on the XR18? IOW what is left after you do the IEMs on it?
IEMs run on Buses 1-4. Usually Bus 6 is used an an Aux sub output. But that can be reconfigured.

So after 4 monitor mix sends - Main Left and Right as well as Bus 5 and 6 - 4 total outs theoretically available for use.

Don't want to derail the thread, but just for the added info.  You CAN delay the output of an XR18 by inserting a Stereo delay on your output buss and setting the mix to 100 percent and the feedback to zero.  I've done exactly this when using these mixers for tiny broadcast events to time align for lip sync.  Works just fine.

[Back to our regularly scheduled broadcast....]

We use three out of four of the effects banks. So one could potentially be used on a bus or main out as a speaker delay.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on May 23, 2019, 07:54:59 pm
Here are a couple more pics of the space.

This is from the back of the stage during a performance of the Cleverlys earlier this month. Whatever audio production was provided for that show is not being provided for ours (but AFAIK, the lights are permanent).

(https://scontent.fatl1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/60342539_2534778579888777_8965022718843944960_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-2.fna&oh=7470e6eab2a1ab3747f06e2b7bc389b0&oe=5D95C754)


See that pic makes it look like the band is right under the bridge/overpass/roadway whereas the previous pics make that structure appear to be far off in the background. That changes things, setup the band in the typical space at top of the stairs but still try to use the different speakers systems to cover different crowd zones because they won't interact nicely at all.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 24, 2019, 02:20:27 am
Pretty harsh, Mal, and also pretty off base, IMO.

I am a sideman in this band, doing my best to help make it sound as good as it can in any given circumstance. I have no say over bookings or budgets. I don't control how much the client decides to pay the band for a given engagement or whether they provide production when it's obviously desperately needed.

This particular gig is one the band does yearly in their hometown to be able to play publicly for local friends and fans. We mostly do regional private corporate/wedding work. I'm sure the band is taking a big pay hit just to do the gig. Since us sidemen get our standard rate for the gig, I'm guessing that the show may even be a loss for the business. In any case the bandleaders see a net benefit to doing the gig, despite the financial and logistical limitations.

This gig is not part of some nefarious plan to take work from a local sound company. Hell, in he past I've been that struggling local sound guy..I can assure you that I would not fault a band for doing this gig with their own gear.

I don't know all the specifics, but to bring on sound I'd guess it would double or triple the budget. But the budget for this gig is fixed by the client - a non-profit community event organization funded in part by the City.

How exactly is what we're doing taking work from a struggling local sound guy?

Are you saying the band should pass on the gig as some kind of principled stand against local non-profits not providing a big enough audio budget for their community summer concert series?

No Mal is exactly spot on.  This happens all the time, and the result is your band is not presented in the best light, the folks attending have a very fatiguing experience and overall it sucks.  I suppose you are going to mix from stage too?

It starts with the producer of the events.  They don't have the budget, don't know what questions to ask and have probably never hired production.

It then goes to an eager band that negotiates and accepts the gig.  Mal's point is very valid.  You guys could have said no.  If you are truly powerless I would do my job, play the bass, stay out of site as much as possible and watch the shit show ensue.

Then once the gig is accepted you end up earning way less than you should have and abuse your PA equipment by pushing it way outside it's design limits.

The problem is the same attitude usually extends to safety and other important issues.  Someone will pay $1000 for portable toilets without a thought but comes unglued at that same amount for someone to bring in 50k worth of production gear and labor.

It doesn't have to be this way.  We do these lawn chair gigs all summer long.  The good ones properly fund production (some even go too far hiring in Stagelines for poorly attended gigs, good salesmanship I guess) and start off with safe staging and power.  It's really a drop in the bucket compared to other expenses and done correctly the guests have such a better time.

Mal wasn't insulting you, you are trapped in a paradigm that you think you "have to do the gig".  No is a powerful word.  If enough people used it the world would be a better place.

Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 24, 2019, 10:20:37 am
No Mal is exactly spot on.  This happens all the time, and the result is your band is not presented in the best light, the folks attending have a very fatiguing experience and overall it sucks.  I suppose you are going to mix from stage too?

It starts with the producer of the events.  They don't have the budget, don't know what questions to ask and have probably never hired production.

It then goes to an eager band that negotiates and accepts the gig.  Mal's point is very valid.  You guys could have said no.  If you are truly powerless I would do my job, play the bass, stay out of site as much as possible and watch the shit show ensue.

Then once the gig is accepted you end up earning way less than you should have and abuse your PA equipment by pushing it way outside it's design limits.

The problem is the same attitude usually extends to safety and other important issues.  Someone will pay $1000 for portable toilets without a thought but comes unglued at that same amount for someone to bring in 50k worth of production gear and labor.

It doesn't have to be this way.  We do these lawn chair gigs all summer long.  The good ones properly fund production (some even go too far hiring in Stagelines for poorly attended gigs, good salesmanship I guess) and start off with safe staging and power.  It's really a drop in the bucket compared to other expenses and done correctly the guests have such a better time.

Mal wasn't insulting you, you are trapped in a paradigm that you think you "have to do the gig".  No is a powerful word.  If enough people used it the world would be a better place.

What's with the dog pile here?

Patrick is a hired gun, a side man.  He has zero power or authority.  How the band is presented is - in theory - not his problem.  He's trying to minimize the shit show by pushing the envelope regarding his status and position with the band.

That the short-sighted and short-pursed organizers don't seem to care about audio (but they installed permanent lighting) is too bad for the event series in general but is their decision to make.  It's a local band day in the local park for the local folks.

Do we need a new forum for "you suck at managing your band"?  Who wants to be the moderator?>
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on May 24, 2019, 10:59:14 am
That is a very interesting place to put a stage. I am sure there is a good joke about a troll under the bridge but I canít think of one now. What is the bridge used for is it a thru road with vehicle traffic? How much noise is there due to what is happening on the bridge?

Back to the speaker system. I have done a dual system setup where we put the vocals in one speaker and the instruments in the other and I loved it, I wish I could do this more often. You can use the left send for the vocals speakers and the right send for the instrument speakers. If you have enough outputs I would even put different things in the different subs that you have. Put the kick in one type of sub and put the bass guitar in the other type. I would also see if there is a way to put your speakers down the stairs a little bit. You might be able to put some wood on the next step down from where you would put the speakers to get an even surface to put them on. 
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Mike Santarelli on May 24, 2019, 12:57:16 pm

Someone will pay $1000 for portable toilets without a thought but comes unglued at that same amount for someone to bring in 50k worth of production gear and labor.




Scott,

I think Iím going to have to quote you when negotiating from now on. Great line.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Tracy on May 24, 2019, 04:23:25 pm
I think I'd opt for the JBL system alone, with subs either side of stage. Dual PA is cool but I suspect the extra time and effort to get it going won't yield all that much improvement.

The JBL tops won't cover 360į so why bother covering it with the subs?  Let there be power alley. If you can make the spread between the stacks somewhat narrow it will widen power alley a bit. Put the subs inboard and the tops outboard.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for &quot;Concert in the Park&quot; Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Pat Cognitore on May 24, 2019, 04:34:02 pm
Update and change of plans.

Just found out today that we are not gonna use the Bose system, but the plan is to use my JBL PRX700 rig along with the JBL Eon600 rig (615s over 618s) they used last year.

I think on the subwoofer front we'll have a fighting chance of the different model JBLs playing nice together.  And If not we can still do a dual PA setup.

Additional good news, we will have someone running sound from FOH. I feel I can now be less mentally invested in the setup and let him do his thing on the day.

Thanks again everyone for all the input. I will post back when we get through the gig in a couple of weeks.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for &quot;Concert in the Park&quot; Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Craig Leerman on May 25, 2019, 04:15:38 am
Hey Pat,

Thanks for trying to make the gig sound good. You deserve an Attaboy award! Tell your bandleader I said you need more money.  ;D

Seriously it amazes me how many bands donít care about their own sound, or how they present themselves. I appreciate the fact that you seem to be doing everything in your power to make things work out.  KUDOS!

Let us know how things worked out.

Craig
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for &quot;Concert in the Park&quot; Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 25, 2019, 04:49:38 am
I am sorry was so hard on you.  We do a lot of these style events and work hard to make them special.

Communities that invest in them see so many intangible returns, it frustrates  me when folks enable this behavior

Your desire to make the best of what you have is commendable.

I hope things turn out well.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

Title: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: John Ferreira on May 25, 2019, 06:20:17 am
I would use the JBLs as the main PA and put the subs together in the center to get some extra dB.  Then I would place the Bose system outside the main PA and point them off to the sides to cover a wider area. If folks want to hear they usually sit in front of the stage. With the Bose you will get a wider area of coverage so folks can congregate off to the sides.

I would not mix the 2 systems together because they are different.

Craig

Absolutely what Craig said above ^^

I also own PRX 712 (and SRX 812), and the only other suggestion is try to run them as flat as you can if you need volume.
The subs get approximately 3 dB from being close to the ground, so do not lift them up, and another 3dB if you put them together from coupling. You probably already know all that.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for &quot;Concert in the Park&quot; Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Steve Garris on May 25, 2019, 02:12:28 pm

Additional good news, we will have someone running sound from FOH. I feel I can now be less mentally invested in the setup and let him do his thing on the day.


This is the most important thing, no matter what equipment you use. Glad to hear you got someone!
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Robert Lunceford on May 25, 2019, 04:56:38 pm
Got a community show coming up next month. Big space outside. No budget for hiring in production. We will be limited to using the equipment we have available, which is a Bose F1 system (2 subs and 2 tops) and a JBL PRX 712 and 718xlf system (2 of each).

I'd like to pile all that gear up with the intention of getting the most summing possible with the least interference. However, neither the differently branded subs (JBL: front-loaded vs. Bose: band-pass) nor the tops (JBL: 12" plus CD horn vs. Bose: 12" plus mini line array) are likely to play well together.

The bandleader suggested we just put one of each cab on each side and daisy chain them from the Main L&R. I'm not convinced that will give us the best results.

My thought is to place like subs together - JBLs on one side and Bose on the other. And then use the two different top types to cover different areas of the audience. The Bose tops would point out a bit use as an outfill of sorts. Then the JBL tops placed as front-fill. I'd try to separate and/or splay the tops to keep the interaction to a minimum. I'd use separate bus sends to control each system (ex: Bose out of Main L&R, JBL from Aux bus) so I'd have discrete control over level, EQ, etc. Mixer does not have output delay so using delay stacks is not a option.

We will not have time to experiment with different layouts before the show.

Any thoughts on the above configuration? Or other suggestions given the equipment limitations?

----------------

I initially left out some info about the band:

We are a function band, so music is everything from classic rock to Motown to modern pop to country. Instrumentation is guitar, bass, drums, 3 vocals. And backing tracks with keys, horns, etc.

There is no stage volume, band is all on in-ears, no amps and electronic drums.

You have both speaker systems at your disposal to set up and do a real world test. Why not set them up, listen, and come to your own conclusion.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Tracy on May 27, 2019, 04:11:22 am
and another 3dB if you put them together from coupling.

I'd say it's more a matter of how they sum rather than if they sum. I'm not convinced power alley is all that bad a thing.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on May 27, 2019, 11:23:48 am
You have both speaker systems at your disposal to set up and do a real world test. Why not set them up, listen, and come to your own conclusion.
The systems are not together in one place, they're in entirely different states, actually. The man-hours that would've been required to get them together and then do testing would total more than than the actual gig will entail. Hence my solicitation of opinions on this forum.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 27, 2019, 11:26:27 am
I'd say it's more a matter of how they sum rather than if they sum. I'm not convinced power alley is all that bad a thing.

Everything in audio involves compromise.  Of the various subwoofer compromises, power alley is low on my list of things to "fix".

Some folks obsess of it and I guess everyone needs a hobby but the vast majority of punter comments on subs do not involve power alley.  IOW "fixing" it might be a great academic and physical exercise but only a few ticket buyers will notice in a show with live music played by live musicians.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for &quot;Concert in the Park&quot; Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Jay Barracato on May 27, 2019, 04:43:12 pm
Everything in audio involves compromise.  Of the various subwoofer compromises, power alley is low on my list of things to "fix".

Some folks obsess of it and I guess everyone needs a hobby but the vast majority of punter comments on subs do not involve power alley.  IOW "fixing" it might be a great academic and physical exercise but only a few ticket buyers will notice in a show with live music played by live musicians.
Especially indoors where more than likely it is just being moved around, and there is always the rear lobes bleeding back on stage.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Robert Lunceford on May 27, 2019, 11:21:53 pm
The systems are not together in one place, they're in entirely different states, actually. The man-hours that would've been required to get them together and then do testing would total more than than the actual gig will entail. Hence my solicitation of opinions on this forum.

My misunderstanding, I thought that all the speakers were owned by various members of the band.
Now that you have read through five pages of suggestions, how would you have set up the speakers had the decision been left up to you?
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Kirby Yarbrough on May 29, 2019, 09:29:07 am
porcine lipstick

Outstanding.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 29, 2019, 11:29:21 am
Everything in audio involves compromise.  Of the various subwoofer compromises, power alley is low on my list of things to "fix".

Some folks obsess of it and I guess everyone needs a hobby but the vast majority of punter comments on subs do not involve power alley.  IOW "fixing" it might be a great academic and physical exercise but only a few ticket buyers will notice in a show with live music played by live musicians.
Agreed, this goes right along with one of my favorite sayings  "Just because we can does not mean we should".

The whole power alley thing get really blown out of proportion when you go inside, and then the room modes become the dominating factor, not power alley.

Outside it can be more of an issue, but often those who don't like split subs because of the lobes, completely forget about the fact that with center subs it is going to be much louder down front in the middle than anywhere else.

Does that matter?  It depends on the show.  In some cases, a more even (in terms of average SPL over the whole seating area) result is achieved with split subs.

Agreed it is all about compromise.  And understanding what the compromise is.

There is no "one method fits all".  It all depends on the particular show, the audience area etc.  Then you choose what is best for that show.  Tomorrow may be a completely different setup
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on May 29, 2019, 02:14:16 pm
My misunderstanding, I thought that all the speakers were owned by various members of the band.
Now that you have read through five pages of suggestions, how would you have set up the speakers had the decision been left up to you?
They are all owned by the band members, we're just spread out a bit across two states.

The gig has yet to come (it's in two weeks), and the situation has changed a bit (for the better) since my original post. I added an update in the OP to clarify the situation.

OP: https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,171127.msg1576391.html#msg1576391 (https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,171127.msg1576391.html#msg1576391)

To answer your question - left to my own devices I probably would've set both the JBL and Bose up and ran them as a dual PA. I would've tried out both systems together with each instrument and made an assessment at that time whether extra output was achieved, and even if so was it worth any potential degradation in sound quality.

TBH, I think the best we can hope for at this gig is that they audience can here the music where they are seated, at a decent quality level. We have no hope of achieving high SPL at the 75-200+' distances we're dealing with short of bring in a serious concert system.

-------------------

Couple of other things to fill in the blanks. (Please note I had no say in these decisions.)

The band had inquired of the promoter to hire in audio production. That was a no go.

The looked into hiring a local company out of their own pocket. It was decided that just didn't make sense from a cost perspective and to just cover the gig with the gear they could source from within the band. Hopefully with the JBL PRX and Eon systems will get the job done.

Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on June 13, 2019, 12:28:04 pm
The gig is tonight, just learned yesterday that we're back to using the Bose and PRX700 systems, as the Eon600 wasn't available. We'll have a tech running audio from FOH and each system will be on a discrete output bus so the option to run a dual PA is there.

I'll put up a post-mordem when I can.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Mark Scrivener on June 13, 2019, 03:04:35 pm
Patrick,

Hope the gig is a smashing success. I can totally relate to your situation...it happens more often than not, at least in my area. From what I see where I live....

1. Other than weddings, corporate gigs, and big A list shows, there is is little to no money in live performance. The wedding and corporate gigs aren't the "art" most artists desire and people playing A list shows aren't reading the LAB Lounge. What's the old joke - a Jazz musician is someone who takes a $5k instrument in a $500 car 50 miles to play a gig for $5. Sadly this is much closer to the truth than most realize.

2. The band is often clueless about live sound and treats the PA as an afterthought. Hiring a sound guy isn't even on their radar. They are only aware of the sound on the stage and the reaction from their fanboy friends. If they only knew what they sounded like in the audience....

Many times I've been a hired gun (guitarist) and found myself pushing to insure the sound is acceptable. I'm lucky in that I run a recording studio, so I guess that gives me credibility when I advise them on live sound. Still it can be an uphill battle.

I've also found things can change dramatically once you arrive at the gig. Despite assurances that the venue was informed and on board with the plan, you may find someone you didn't even know existed has (or thinks they have) authority and insists on a setup that makes no sense.

I guess my best advise is to be ready for anything, and know when to just shut up and play your instrument. You can lead a horse to water......
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on June 16, 2019, 03:54:35 pm
The gig went great. The JBL and Bose systems got used together, it sounded fine. I'm sure there was some unwanted cancellation going on but overall both systems combined to give greater SPL and the music was heard by all. Particularly the kids that dance up on the steps and at the front of the stage the whole show.

I ended up with a busted JBL top, I think an issue with the amp that I had previously re-surfaced at this gig. The amp repair I had done last year was $300 so I'm thinking that PRX712 may be going in the trash bin, because I'm not dropping another $300 on a discontinued model. Unless anyone has a line on a complete plate amp replacement as a reasonable cost. I've got no JBL service center within 180 miles, and the closest one is the one that 'fixed' it last time.

Some shots from the gig below. If I come across any video from the show I'll post it up.
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on June 16, 2019, 04:03:55 pm
Just found this overhead photo of the venue. Don't ask my why every sits so far away from the stage. The concrete slab at the bottom right of the pic is about 45' out from the stage. So the actual "front row" of the audience is 100'+ from the PA. Ridiculous.

(https://scontent.fatl1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/64235242_2275857335802587_2826548519010041856_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_oc=AQnFhAV8qWqLXsc2u0YSElHOUAmvvRnd0hmLlIjK_32w15I-Rh8FLF56LvDwB52g9iE&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-2.fna&oh=59ac87572467469b25a3ec5180760dbf&oe=5DC618D0)

And one from back of the crowd by the food/drink vendors.

(https://scontent.fatl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/64535520_2275857272469260_6264324051641040896_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_oc=AQkcxmBLzaTLdBGL5nkUzap0QFhOeY4meyT_NUdnwR5U--FHNpQBdvrNvNezMdNL-WM&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-1.fna&oh=031b42bb172450cf052cbce0611f49c8&oe=5DC6B489)
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Scott Holtzman on June 16, 2019, 05:39:38 pm
Just found this overhead photo of the venue. Don't ask my why every sits so far away from the stage. The concrete slab at the bottom right of the pic is about 45' out from the stage. So the actual "front row" of the audience is 100'+ from the PA. Ridiculous.

(https://scontent.fatl1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/64235242_2275857335802587_2826548519010041856_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_oc=AQnFhAV8qWqLXsc2u0YSElHOUAmvvRnd0hmLlIjK_32w15I-Rh8FLF56LvDwB52g9iE&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-2.fna&oh=59ac87572467469b25a3ec5180760dbf&oe=5DC618D0)

And one from back of the crowd by the food/drink vendors.

(https://scontent.fatl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/64535520_2275857272469260_6264324051641040896_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_oc=AQkcxmBLzaTLdBGL5nkUzap0QFhOeY4meyT_NUdnwR5U--FHNpQBdvrNvNezMdNL-WM&_nc_ht=scontent.fatl1-1.fna&oh=031b42bb172450cf052cbce0611f49c8&oe=5DC6B489)

Why does everyone sit so far back from the stage?
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on June 16, 2019, 07:15:13 pm
Why does everyone sit so far back from the stage?

So they don't hurt their necks having to look up so hi when they are too close?
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Scott Holtzman on June 16, 2019, 08:28:40 pm
So they don't hurt their necks having to look up so hi when they are too close?

Lol
Title: Re: Suggestions for PA setup for "Concert in the Park" Bose and JBL PRX content
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on June 16, 2019, 09:10:29 pm
Why does everyone sit so far back from the stage?
Smart-ass.  ;D

Apparently its like this at every show here. They put on a handfull of shows each year - local bands and national acts - the crowd always sits back. Some type of odd spectator-groupthink? The first people to arrive decide, 'Hey, I don't want to be too close. This is good.' Then everyone else who arrives after accepts that as the "Front Row". At 120' from the stage.

I was told there have been times when folks sitting 200' away say "can you turn the music up?" and they are told "no, but why don't you move closer?"

-------------------------------------------------

I forgot to mention that we did briefly kick around the idea of placing the PA on the ground at the foot of the steps (30' in front of the band), but it really wouldn't work because there are a bunch of kids (like...100) running around that area and climbing the steps and adjacent ramps. Not feasible or safe to place the stacks there.