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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Bob Cap on February 27, 2019, 09:29:36 am

Title: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Bob Cap on February 27, 2019, 09:29:36 am
After talking to several people I guess I'm going to throw this out for a final opinion...

Yamaha DZR15  or  Presonus ULT-15

Uses are for SOS and floor monitor applications.

Fire away...

Thanks
Bob Cap
Advanced Audio Inc.
Gilbert, MN
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Steve Garris on February 27, 2019, 01:08:39 pm
After talking to several people I guess I'm going to throw this out for a final opinion...

Yamaha DZR15  or  Presonus ULT-15

Uses are for SOS and floor monitor applications.

Fire away...

Thanks
Bob Cap
Advanced Audio Inc.
Gilbert, MN

One issue with the DZR on the floor is the foam is on the outside of the grill.
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Bob Cap on February 27, 2019, 01:54:42 pm
One issue with the DZR on the floor is the foam is on the outside of the grill.

The photo on Yamaha's site doesn't look that way.

You sure?

How could Yamaha be so stupid?

Anybody else confirm this?

Thanks

Bob

Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Mike Pyle on February 27, 2019, 02:10:16 pm
It is on the outside. It's more like a foam backed perforated fabric.
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Steven Eudaly on February 27, 2019, 02:41:44 pm
People keep making a big deal out of the DZR grill fabric, yet based on the pictures it looks very similar to the grill material on all modern L'Acoustics boxes, which wear quite well.
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Bob Cap on February 27, 2019, 02:56:10 pm
People keep making a big deal out of the DZR grill fabric, yet based on the pictures it looks very similar to the grill material on all modern L'Acoustics boxes, which wear quite well.

That's what I thought.

Back to the topic....Comments on the ULT15 vs DZR15?
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Luke Geis on February 27, 2019, 03:26:11 pm
I would wait a little longer on both of these before pulling the trigger. The DZR is still rather untested in the real world and the specs just don't add up. The Presonus is using a bunch of BS to sell the product. Throw eh....... Most wide coverage horns don't sound too great when off axis and the narrow vertical angle doesn't help any. Narrow coverage horns " throw " better because most of the energy is directed in a particular direction. This improves the odds that it will make it to the back of the room before it bounces off everything else. A wide horizontal angle and a narrow vertical ( which 50* isn't that narrow really for a speaker ) means that they totally negated the idea behind how and why narrow coverage speakers work well when properly deployed. Also, the very high 1.6khz crossover means that you only have that pattern control at best with frequencies above 1.6khz.

The DZR is scary with its specs. We are talking about a speaker that has a continuous power rating of 1,300 watts, has a 2" VC for the compression driver and a 3" VC for the woofer. The CD is crossed over at 1.7khz!!!! That is up there, and the specs suggest a bandwidth of 34hz - 20khz. That is really low for any speaker that is full range to produce at the levels they are stating. The peak spl spec is probably the scariest. 139db is really high for any dual element speaker especially with the power available. 2000 watts peak isn't very much. Based on the peak wattage and the peak SPL, it suggests that the speaker has a 1 watt, 1 meter efficiency right close to 109db!!!! All this at a speaker that costs roughly $1,200. Most speakers that cost 5X as much are not that efficient with dual element designs. The specs stink of BS is basically what I am saying.

The JBL SRX specs also stink of some BS, but at least a little more believable BS. I think the specs suggest that the SRX line has a 1 watt, 1 meter efficiency of 104db. This is plausible at least. The modern crop of super high output speakers are using some strange math to come to their numbers. Some are modest, some are absolute BS and some are in between the two extremes.

I would not put my faith in the Presonus just because they are not exactly known for their speaker designs. I would place a little more faith in the Yamaha, but I would not buy it for the specs, I think they are full of poop; unless we get someone on here that shows us some hard numbers. They are also both brand new offerings and I like waiting a year or so to see two things. How much steam the line picks up ( are people buying it ), and what is the attrition rate ( is it having failures or is easily damaged ).
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Thomas Le on February 27, 2019, 04:45:53 pm
Interesting to see Presonus in this neck of the forum woods.
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Bob Cap on February 27, 2019, 05:14:52 pm
I would wait a little longer on both of these before pulling the trigger. The DZR is still rather untested in the real world and the specs just don't add up. The Presonus is using a bunch of BS to sell the product. Throw eh....... Most wide coverage horns don't sound too great when off axis and the narrow vertical angle doesn't help any. Narrow coverage horns " throw " better because most of the energy is directed in a particular direction. This improves the odds that it will make it to the back of the room before it bounces off everything else. A wide horizontal angle and a narrow vertical ( which 50* isn't that narrow really for a speaker ) means that they totally negated the idea behind how and why narrow coverage speakers work well when properly deployed. Also, the very high 1.6khz crossover means that you only have that pattern control at best with frequencies above 1.6khz.

The DZR is scary with its specs. We are talking about a speaker that has a continuous power rating of 1,300 watts, has a 2" VC for the compression driver and a 3" VC for the woofer. The CD is crossed over at 1.7khz!!!! That is up there, and the specs suggest a bandwidth of 34hz - 20khz. That is really low for any speaker that is full range to produce at the levels they are stating. The peak spl spec is probably the scariest. 139db is really high for any dual element speaker especially with the power available. 2000 watts peak isn't very much. Based on the peak wattage and the peak SPL, it suggests that the speaker has a 1 watt, 1 meter efficiency right close to 109db!!!! All this at a speaker that costs roughly $1,200. Most speakers that cost 5X as much are not that efficient with dual element designs. The specs stink of BS is basically what I am saying.

The JBL SRX specs also stink of some BS, but at least a little more believable BS. I think the specs suggest that the SRX line has a 1 watt, 1 meter efficiency of 104db. This is plausible at least. The modern crop of super high output speakers are using some strange math to come to their numbers. Some are modest, some are absolute BS and some are in between the two extremes.

I would not put my faith in the Presonus just because they are not exactly known for their speaker designs. I would place a little more faith in the Yamaha, but I would not buy it for the specs, I think they are full of poop; unless we get someone on here that shows us some hard numbers. They are also both brand new offerings and I like waiting a year or so to see two things. How much steam the line picks up ( are people buying it ), and what is the attrition rate ( is it having failures or is easily damaged ).

Specs are specs, Same thing as BS. That's why I'm asking for info on a board that I've been on for years. If you needed to replace 10 monitor/sos asap what would you buy?
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: James Paul on February 27, 2019, 05:19:19 pm
Printed specs, marketing, construction & materials, pricing, and shy of any real world road test of either cabinet aside, I submit if intended for professional use that service after sale be considered.
Presonus = 6 year warranty, service @ Baton Rouge, LA
Yamaha  = 7 year warranty, service @ USA 
 https://www.yamaha.com/paragon/servicerlocator/?_ga=2.64900457.796844696.1551304562-1563154105.1551304562

https://usa.yamaha.com/files/CA_Warranties_Eng_Fra_0158971d9b07b825ff5cafd0db023af9.pdf
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 27, 2019, 06:09:55 pm
Specs are specs, Same thing as BS. That's why I'm asking for info on a board that I've been on for years. If you needed to replace 10 monitor/sos asap what would you buy?
That ticks all your boxes - 15" woofer, self powered, SoS socket?

JBL SRX815P.  Big.  Heavy.  Lots of output and it sounds good...

Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Luke Geis on February 27, 2019, 06:30:28 pm
JBL SRX is still my current winner. Hands down still the best all-around box you can get. Big and bulky, but a solid performer that sounds great. Networking, features and specs aside, it is a great sounding tool and is priced rather well. It gets more than loud enough for everything I have used it for.

I have been investing in RCF NX12SMA's lately. I own 6 now and another two here shortly. They sound great, get loud enough for monitors, corporate and modest rock bands, are easy to deploy ( light and small ) and are priced rather well ( talk to Mike Pyle ). The specs they have are modest I believe. I think they can actually produce the numbers they boast.

Presonus: Never have been known for speaker production. Simple as that.



Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Dave Garoutte on February 27, 2019, 06:58:42 pm
+1 on the RCF NX12SMA's for purpose built floor monitors.
For SOS, it's more problematic.
For both . . .
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Mike Pyle on February 27, 2019, 07:02:54 pm
You probably need to go with something like the NX45A to get the component quality of the ART500A in a wood cabinet. I imagine most people are not that familiar with the 500A, but it basically had a full wood structure skinned in plastic. About 80 lbs, full 2" horn throat with a massive compression driver, low crossover point and a BIG sound.

You can easily do better price-wise than what you see online, especially if you're buying 10 in a single order.
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 27, 2019, 07:32:45 pm
You probably need to go with something like the NX45A to get the component quality of the ART500A in a wood cabinet. I imagine most people are not that familiar with the 500A, but it basically had a full wood structure skinned in plastic. About 80 lbs, full 2" horn throat with a massive compression driver, low crossover point and a BIG sound.

You can easily do better price-wise than what you see online, especially if you're buying 10 in a single order.

I liked the NX45a I heard on a stick, never heard one on the floor as a wedge.  The thing I noticed was how consistent the H/V coverage was in the acoustic crossover, and sonically the mid was very clear.
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Tim Halligan on February 27, 2019, 09:24:20 pm
Interesting Unsettling to see Presonus in this neck of the forum woods.

FTFY

Cheers,
Tim
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Brian Bolly on February 28, 2019, 03:49:59 am
Specs are specs, Same thing as BS. That's why I'm asking for info on a board that I've been on for years. If you needed to replace 10 monitor/sos asap what would you buy?

Rather than steering this back down the path of suggesting more boxes, between the two I'd do the DZR for several reasons:

- Bigger voice coils
- Better warranty
- Actual dual angle wedge (can be a Left or Right; can be deployed in mirrored pairs)
- Real monitor wedge angle (50 vs 30)
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on February 28, 2019, 05:08:58 am
Specs are specs, Same thing as BS. That's why I'm asking for info on a board that I've been on for years. If you needed to replace 10 monitor/sos asap what would you buy?

Personally, I'd buy some proper monitors that can be used on a stick than a speaker on a stick that can be used as a monitor.

I'm not a fan of the multipurpose speaker as monitor, I think it's too huge a compromise.

IMHO.

Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Bob Faulkner on February 28, 2019, 07:42:00 am
Not too long ago,  I listened to a Personus setup (15"??) a bar-band was using.  It sounded  fine to me.  Though, not sure what was pushing the signal to it (they had an IPAD, but I never saw what "console" they were using).  According to Presonus, their speakers are actually designed by WorxAudio.

The specs on the Yamaha don't seem right.  Not sure what their "Dynamic" power means as it doesn't follow the normal power rating references.  The Presonus specs look more honest.

The DZR would look good (on a stick) with the cloth front (almost looks well suited for corporate gigs), but not sure sure I would like a cloth front for monitor applications.  The Presonus looks more viable for bar gigs and monitor use.  For the Yamaha, I would be concerned about tearing the cloth... from loading-in, loading-out and moving other gear around them.  The front seems to delicate for heavy/consistent use.

I do like Yamaha; I have the DSR15 line for smaller FOH shows and 8 passive 12" monitor speakers.

Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Bob Cap on February 28, 2019, 09:15:26 am
Personally, I'd buy some proper monitors that can be used on a stick than a speaker on a stick that can be used as a monitor.

I'm not a fan of the multipurpose speaker as monitor, I think it's too huge a compromise.

IMHO.

What do you suggest?
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Steven Eudaly on February 28, 2019, 09:22:11 am
For all the reasons previously mentioned (ergonomics, specs, warranty, cosmetics, brand reputation, value) my vote is for the Yamaha.

Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Jeffrey Knorr - CobraSound.com on February 28, 2019, 10:57:08 am
After talking to several people I guess I'm going to throw this out for a final opinion...

Yamaha DZR15  or  Presonus ULT-15

Uses are for SOS and floor monitor applications.

Fire away...

Thanks
Bob Cap
Advanced Audio Inc.
Gilbert, MN

If those are the only horses in the race, I'd vote for the Yamaha.  However, as was already mentioned in this thread, I also think that the RCF NX series would be a better option.  IEC connectors on floor monitors are a major nuisance and shouldn't be used on a pro stage.  The NX45 is the closest thing to what you're used to.  Almost all of the others mentioned would be a downgrade in terms of drivers.   Maybe a package of RCF NX45A and/or NX-12SMA/NX-15SMA would be ideal?  We've used and sold a bunch of the NX-12SMA's ourselves--they're great sounding, very compact, and affordably priced boxes.  The NX45A should take that quality to a new level in regard to output.  One last point, I'm a HUGE fan of co-axial speakers for monitors.  They usually lead to better and more stable GBF and are often smaller/lighter for tight stages.

We are an RCF dealer but I try to only recommend and sell products that we would be proud to use ourselves.

If cost were no object, I'd be steering you to Fulcrum Acoustic FW15's and Powersoft X series. :)

Thank you,

Jeff
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Bob Cap on February 28, 2019, 01:56:47 pm
If those are the only horses in the race, I'd vote for the Yamaha.  However, as was already mentioned in this thread, I also think that the RCF NX series would be a better option.  IEC connectors on floor monitors are a major nuisance and shouldn't be used on a pro stage.  The NX45 is the closest thing to what you're used to.  Almost all of the others mentioned would be a downgrade in terms of drivers.   Maybe a package of RCF NX45A and/or NX-12SMA/NX-15SMA would be ideal?  We've used and sold a bunch of the NX-12SMA's ourselves--they're great sounding, very compact, and affordably priced boxes.  The NX45A should take that quality to a new level in regard to output.  One last point, I'm a HUGE fan of co-axial speakers for monitors.  They usually lead to better and more stable GBF and are often smaller/lighter for tight stages.

We are an RCF dealer but I try to only recommend and sell products that we would be proud to use ourselves.

If cost were no object, I'd be steering you to Fulcrum Acoustic FW15's and Powersoft X series. :)

Thank you,

Jeff

Jeff, why get the 15" over 12". Our old RCF boxes were 15. But looking at the specs (for what they are good for) The 12" keeps up to the 15" pretty well.
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on February 28, 2019, 03:16:43 pm
What do you suggest?

EAW Microwedge 12/15 or d&b M4/Max2.
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Jeffrey Knorr - CobraSound.com on March 01, 2019, 09:39:07 am
Jeff, why get the 15" over 12". Our old RCF boxes were 15. But looking at the specs (for what they are good for) The 12" keeps up to the 15" pretty well.

My monitors have always been 12".  I suggested the 15" versions just to get closer to what you have been using.  If you don't need the additional low-end of the 15", I would go for the 12" every day.

Jeff
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Christopher Irwin on March 01, 2019, 02:34:45 pm
or d&b M4/Max2.

Is there a big difference in real-world use between the M4 and Max2? I've been slowly transitioning my university's inventory over to d&b - wedges are next on the list. Specs seem fairly comparable, and of course price is always a factor, so the cheaper one (Max2) will likely win out unless there is a good reason to spend the extra $$.

This would be to replace JBL JRX's (which are terrible) - we are a university that rarely sees big name shows come through, so it's more everyday use with a variety of student musician type concerts and lots of corporate style work, and then the once or twice a year B level band that comes through; that said, we care about quality and take pride in our work (thus d&b)!
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Steven Eudaly on March 01, 2019, 04:14:58 pm
Is there a big difference in real-world use between the M4 and Max2? I've been slowly transitioning my university's inventory over to d&b - wedges are next on the list. Specs seem fairly comparable, and of course price is always a factor, so the cheaper one (Max2) will likely win out unless there is a good reason to spend the extra $$.

We bought 12x Max2s in the summer of 2016 when they were still a very new box. Touring folks consistently think they're M4s. When the d&b applications people came for our in-house training, when first hearing the Max2, one of them even commented something along the lines "there's going to be some people upset they spent extra for the M4."

My only two gripes about the Max2s are 1) they are 6 lbs heavier and 2) the handles are not meant for one-handed carry. We power them with D20s and they absolutely rip. Everyone loves them.
Title: Re: Multi use powered cabinets
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on March 02, 2019, 03:10:45 pm
Is there a big difference in real-world use between the M4 and Max2? I've been slowly transitioning my university's inventory over to d&b - wedges are next on the list. Specs seem fairly comparable, and of course price is always a factor, so the cheaper one (Max2) will likely win out unless there is a good reason to spend the extra $$.

This would be to replace JBL JRX's (which are terrible) - we are a university that rarely sees big name shows come through, so it's more everyday use with a variety of student musician type concerts and lots of corporate style work, and then the once or twice a year B level band that comes through; that said, we care about quality and take pride in our work (thus d&b)!

Max2 can be used with any amp so M4 could be more reliable over the years since you have to use a d&b amp for it.
M4 is also louder and a bit more stable when things go to 11