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Title: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Daniel Martini on February 16, 2019, 05:06:36 pm
Hello all! This will be my first post on here. Just wanted to say thanks for all of the knowledge you guys have given me over the years about pro audio. I've learned everything from this website/forum thus far and I am truly appreciative of this resource. I know this has been asked a million times before but here is the situation...

I'm in the process of building X4 labhorns... I need tops. I've done extensive research for the right tops to no avail and no consensus. I have X4 JBL Mpro 225 bandpass boxes and my main question is, are these suitable to stack on top of the labs and crossover above 80hz?  If so then my options open up greatly for a mid top box but if not I need to find a full range cab to extend down that far. I don't really want to stack the mpros (two on four) on top of the labs (because imo mpros are pretty janky) but will do so if necessary. Was mainly looking at the EV TX2152 for tops but not sure if they can keep up or if they are a good cab to array. Open to suggestions of tops except eaw that requires the UX 8800.

My requirements are that they need to be array-able ie one for each lab and that they have plenty of kick. In the future I want X8 labs so will need tops that are readily available and able to use in clusters.

For reference the rig includes
X4 Labs
X4 Mpro 225
X1 QSC Powerlight 6.0 II (Labs)
X4 Mackie M1400 (JBL)
X1 Driverack 260
(Need a distro but have no idea where to begin on that)

Mostly will be doing indoor shows (warehouse, club, house,) but will do outdoor in the future.
If i didnt ask this question correctly my apologies and please correct me! Thanks in advance. - Daniel
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Tim Weaver on February 17, 2019, 09:20:54 am
I mean, yeah, you can use them.  They'll probably let the smoke out pretty quick unless you are very careful.


You're gonna need some serious tops to keep up with the subs. Especially 8 of them. You say your not prepared to buy an 8800 for some reason, but that makes me wonder if you really know what kind of investment it will truly take to buy tops for 8 labs and power them properly....

Maybe look at building some of Peter Morris' top cabinets? You may still want a low-mid box between them though.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Steven Eudaly on February 17, 2019, 09:43:54 am
Open to suggestions of tops except eaw that requires the UX8800.

Pretty much any speaker is going to require the manufacturer specified processor for optimum performance whether it be a UX, Lake, DC-One, or [insert any dsp brand/model]. Is there any reason you rule out the UX?

Regarding the original question, IMO the need for "kick bins" is unnecessary. The EV boxes you mentioned would presumably have no issue handling 80Hz and above, however they really aren't designed to be arrayed. They're going to have little pattern control below the operating range of the compression driver. Will they make more noise when clustered together, sure, but not in a constructive or predictable fashion. Adding more cabinets, especially of such different design philosophies will only create more alignment issues and complicate setup with little performance gain. As opposed to breaking up pass bands by adding different subs, I'd be looking at 3-way tops.

You don't mention budget, but based on your suggestions it seems to me like KF650s would be fit your needs, despite the initial bias against its dsp. Lots of output for their size, they array well and you've already got enough amps to biamp or triamp, albeit a bit underpowered. For nearly the same price as those EV boxes, you should be able to find them on the used market. Sell those MP225S boxes to help fund the purchase of the proper processor. As others have said on this forum, if you can't afford the right processing, you can't afford the speakers.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on February 18, 2019, 09:43:26 am
So, 8x Lab horns in the future.

If we say each cab will be 105dB@1w (ignoring the sagging response and assuming it'll flatten when used in multiples) and take 1KW, you're looking at 135dB per box. Eight boxes gives +18dB gain, so 153dB.

Depending on the sort of music you're playing, the subs need to be capable of quite a lot more output than the main speakers. Given the sort of system we're talking about here, it might be of the order of 20dB.

So, you need a main speaker that can put out 133dB.

That's the sort of territory where a good 2x12" direct-radiating cab would manage just fine. Something like 2x Faital Pro 12FH520 with a BMS coaxial compression driver, 800Hz-ish crossover.

Heck, my 2x10" mains would get close, and we're still only looking at one main speaker per side, which is a Good Thing when it comes to coverage and sound quality.


+1 on previous comments about processing. The tuning of a system can make or break it.

Chris
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on February 18, 2019, 10:46:18 am
Just looking at the spec sheet for the M225 pro, I'd say the biggest concern is their compression driver.
Plain too weak for the subs you're bringing to the party.
My guess is the dual 15"s would do fine crossing to the Labhorns at 80Hz.

I do think 80Hz is about ideal for crossing the Labs (I own 4).
Impedance goes low and stays low from  90-95Hz up....I speculate more labs were burnt up being used too high, than over driven down low.

That said, I've used the Labs as high as 100Hz very successfully with a number of different tops including a couple mentioned in this thread, the Peter Morris DIYs and kf650/695z.
If you're still into DIY after building the Labs,  highly recommend the Peter Morris boxes.

Some used kf650's would make a nice compliment to the Labs other than their weight.
I agree with all the folks who say you really need the right processing, but i also agree with you about the UX8800...I'd never spring for it (waay overpriced.)  The 3x6 little brother UX3600, which would do the same thing, can be found new for under $1200 however.

When it comes to new boxes in the market...I dunno. 
Where's the boxes with big balls that only reach to 50-80Hz ?? ..that's all the low end really needed.
Why does every body have to make stuff that can also "be used without a sub" ?
But then again, I haven't looked very hard either....
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Steven Eudaly on February 18, 2019, 01:57:41 pm
Just looking at the spec sheet for the M225 pro, I'd say the biggest concern is their compression driver.

Hopefully Daniel will clarify, but based on his wording in the original post I think he may be talking about the JBL MP255S dual 15" bandpass subwoofer, and is contemplating using them as a mid-bass "kick bin" between his Lab subs and whatever mains he decides to go with.

I have X4 JBL Mpro 225 bandpass boxes and my main question is, are these suitable to stack on top of the labs and crossover above 80hz?  If so then my options open up greatly for a mid top box

Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on February 18, 2019, 04:48:56 pm
Hopefully Daniel will clarify, but based on his wording in the original post I think he may be talking about the JBL MP255S dual 15" bandpass subwoofer, and is contemplating using them as a mid-bass "kick bin" between his Lab subs and whatever mains he decides to go with.

Yep, I think you probably read his post more carefully than me
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: duane massey on February 19, 2019, 02:17:19 am
Ditch the MP255S cabs. Buy or build something better.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Daniel Martini on February 19, 2019, 07:20:48 pm
Thanks for all your input everyone! I hear what you're saying about the UX8800. It's a lot of money and so are kf series speakers. Thats my main issue. Am open to them in the future but have recently stumbled upon an opportunity to buy X8 Meyer MSL3a cabs for $3000 total. I think that's a steal even at their age plus he's throwing in the M3A processor. What are you're thoughts on them? They spec down to 75hz but would love to get some DS2 bins to take some of the stress off the tops. All parts are original though and I don't' have an opportunity to inspect the msl's since they are in Florida (I'm in Washington) Also yes Steven and Mark they are the subwoofer bandpass.

Also thanks Tim I will look into the peter morris designs for sure! Definitely not going for the EV either now.

Edit: Here is the link for the sale: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Meyer-MSL-3A-Passive-Loudspeakers-READ/123550897312?hash=item1cc43514a0:g:MSAAAOSwvERcGFyy:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Daniel Martini on February 19, 2019, 07:25:31 pm
So, 8x Lab horns in the future.

If we say each cab will be 105dB@1w (ignoring the sagging response and assuming it'll flatten when used in multiples) and take 1KW, you're looking at 135dB per box. Eight boxes gives +18dB gain, so 153dB.

Depending on the sort of music you're playing, the subs need to be capable of quite a lot more output than the main speakers. Given the sort of system we're talking about here, it might be of the order of 20dB.

So, you need a main speaker that can put out 133dB.

That's the sort of territory where a good 2x12" direct-radiating cab would manage just fine. Something like 2x Faital Pro 12FH520 with a BMS coaxial compression driver, 800Hz-ish crossover.

Heck, my 2x10" mains would get close, and we're still only looking at one main speaker per side, which is a Good Thing when it comes to coverage and sound quality.


+1 on previous comments about processing. The tuning of a system can make or break it.

Chris

Thank you for this info Chris! Very helpful, however I want to avoid building tops (Although the Peter Morris designs have me intrigued)
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on February 20, 2019, 02:21:50 am
Thanks for all your input everyone! I hear what you're saying about the UX8800. It's a lot of money and so are kf series speakers. Thats my main issue. Am open to them in the future but have recently stumbled upon an opportunity to buy X8 Meyer MSL3a cabs for $3000 total. I think that's a steal even at their age plus he's throwing in the M3A processor. What are you're thoughts on them? They spec down to 75hz but would love to get some DS2 bins to take some of the stress off the tops. All parts are original though and I don't' have an opportunity to inspect the msl's since they are in Florida (I'm in Washington) Also yes Steven and Mark they are the subwoofer bandpass.

Also thanks Tim I will look into the peter morris designs for sure! Definitely not going for the EV either now.

Edit: Here is the link for the sale: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Meyer-MSL-3A-Passive-Loudspeakers-READ/123550897312?hash=item1cc43514a0:g:MSAAAOSwvERcGFyy:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true
I have 12 Meyer 650R2's powered by 12x Yammie PS8k's 6 per rack and one Meyer processor per rack.  Some of the subs had been reconed with the wrong kits,  all were redone with proper Meyer kita and fresh ferrofluid by Keith Steele, a Meyer genius and 6 of these actually were part of the Meyer/Gamble rig Steele ran at Nelson Ledges in the 90's.

These boxes have been taken care of and 12 of them are devestating while retaining the Meyer musicality. 

I have entertained replacing these with powered subs as we run them with our 16 boxes of FBT Muse 210LA's. 

If you end up with the Meyer boxes these could be an a good pairing.  They would be less cost than building the labs and we have recone kits and baskets that would go with the deal.

We have these booked all summer and anyone serious needs to come setup and run them to see if they are their cup tea.



Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on February 20, 2019, 03:49:09 am
Thank you for this info Chris! Very helpful, however I want to avoid building tops (Although the Peter Morris designs have me intrigued)

Fair enough.

I had a quick look at the Meyer boxes you've mentioned and I think two per side would do just fine for you. They're 70-degree (horizontal) cabinets, so if you use 2/side you've got 140 degree coverage. I can't really think of a situation where you'd need all eight of them unless you wanted to overlap the coverage for some reason.

That said, 4x for FOH and 2x for monitors (I assume this is a system for DJ use) and 2x spare would be just fine.

Chris
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: John L Nobile on February 20, 2019, 10:44:35 am
Thanks for all your input everyone! I hear what you're saying about the UX8800. It's a lot of money and so are kf series speakers. Thats my main issue. Am open to them in the future but have recently stumbled upon an opportunity to buy X8 Meyer MSL3a cabs for $3000 total. I think that's a steal even at their age plus he's throwing in the M3A processor. What are you're thoughts on them? They spec down to 75hz but would love to get some DS2 bins to take some of the stress off the tops. All parts are original though and I don't' have an opportunity to inspect the msl's since they are in Florida (I'm in Washington) Also yes Steven and Mark they are the subwoofer bandpass.

Also thanks Tim I will look into the peter morris designs for sure! Definitely not going for the EV either now.

Edit: Here is the link for the sale: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Meyer-MSL-3A-Passive-Loudspeakers-READ/123550897312?hash=item1cc43514a0:g:MSAAAOSwvERcGFyy:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true

I still have a pair of MSL3's that were used 6 nights a week for 24 years. And I thought they sounded really good. But it was an install. I wouldn't want to move them.  They're very heavy. I think they're around 240 lbs. And they're very large and awkward. I'm relying more on my SM80's as I can set them up myself and I much prefer the sound. When I do use the Meyers, it's for audience side fills that I leave on the ground. It takes 3 of us to put one up on a sub or flight case.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Steven Eudaly on February 20, 2019, 07:50:07 pm
I assisted another provider in setting up their MSL3 rig for a gig and while it sounded pretty good for the application, it took up a lot of truck space, was heavy and difficult to move. Luckily for this gig the venue had a dock and the speakers were able to roll straight on to their risers, requiring no lifting.

You're going to need dolly plates, access to a truck, and additional labor for setup/strike. These things all add to their operating costs, which is likely why they are being sold for such a low price.

Are they a good solution for your sonic dilema? Maybe so. But you need to consider the logistic consequences before committing to such a system or they could create more issues for your business model than they solve.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Daniel Martini on February 21, 2019, 12:27:01 am
After considering the size/weight of the Meyers I don't think Im going to go for them. They're just too much right now. I am opening up to the idea of KF650's considering I can use a much less expensive processor on them then the UX. How many would I need per side to keep up with 8 Labs? Also very much open to  other cabs besides EAW so throw some out if you guys can. It's just hard for me to gauge how much top end I will need to cover outdoor crowds. And yes the primary genre will be electronic.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on February 21, 2019, 03:52:11 am
After considering the size/weight of the Meyers I don't think Im going to go for them. They're just too much right now. I am opening up to the idea of KF650's considering I can use a much less expensive processor on them then the UX. How many would I need per side to keep up with 8 Labs? Also very much open to  other cabs besides EAW so throw some out if you guys can. It's just hard for me to gauge how much top end I will need to cover outdoor crowds. And yes the primary genre will be electronic.
Using a different processor with the KF's is silly.  They just aren't the same.  Just lime JBL SRX and VRX with V5 tunings.  It makes them all new boxes.

I believe Mal Brown another member here has KF's and,the processor.  You might want to reach out to him.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Daniel Martini on February 24, 2019, 05:25:20 pm
Just to give a little update about the situation we ended up going with the 8 MSL3's! Also snagged an m-3a processor as well so we should be good to go! I need to cross the labs though so Im probably still going to buy a driverack 260. Can i run limiting, crossover points etc through the driverack into the meyer processor or will that mess with the operation of it? I guess I could start another thread about it. I'm also not sure if the msl's have xovers in them or if the m-3a takes care of all of that, so i guess ill give meyer a call. Could run aux to subs as well I suppose. Lastly the meyers have EP-4 connectors and my mackies m1400's have speakon outs. What is the best way to adapt for that???
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 25, 2019, 12:52:11 pm
Just to give a little update about the situation we ended up going with the 8 MSL3's! Also snagged an m-3a processor as well so we should be good to go! I need to cross the labs though so Im probably still going to buy a driverack 260. Can i run limiting, crossover points etc through the driverack into the meyer processor or will that mess with the operation of it? I guess I could start another thread about it. I'm also not sure if the msl's have xovers in them or if the m-3a takes care of all of that, so i guess ill give meyer a call. Could run aux to subs as well I suppose. Lastly the meyers have EP-4 connectors and my mackies m1400's have speakon outs. What is the best way to adapt for that???
Use the Meyer processor for the MSL3s, and the 260 for overall tone as needed.

You can set a prelimiter with the 260.

the best way to deal with different connectors is simply to change them to what you need.

You can use adapters, but that is just more possible failure points, and things to lose or forget.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: John L Nobile on February 25, 2019, 01:10:56 pm
Just to give a little update about the situation we ended up going with the 8 MSL3's! Also snagged an m-3a processor as well so we should be good to go! I need to cross the labs though so Im probably still going to buy a driverack 260. Can i run limiting, crossover points etc through the driverack into the meyer processor or will that mess with the operation of it? I guess I could start another thread about it. I'm also not sure if the msl's have xovers in them or if the m-3a takes care of all of that, so i guess ill give meyer a call. Could run aux to subs as well I suppose. Lastly the meyers have EP-4 connectors and my mackies m1400's have speakon outs. What is the best way to adapt for that???

I once used the M3A without the sense connectors plugged in. Just once. The audio would periodically cut out briefly. I was told that it was normal for that to happen without the sense cable connected. Keep that in mind if you're making speakons.
BTW, the MSL3's don't sound very good without the processor. You may need more than one.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Daniel Martini on February 26, 2019, 08:54:49 pm
Thanks Ivan & John! Very confused about the sense connectors but I will give Meyer a call. Will post pics and updates periodically if anyone is interested. You all have been very helpful!
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Steven Eudaly on February 26, 2019, 10:11:40 pm
Will post pics and updates periodically if anyone is interested. You all have been very helpful!

Please keep us posted on your progress. Half the fun of helping others is seeing them [hopefully] succeed!
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on February 27, 2019, 03:40:46 am
Please keep us posted on your progress. Half the fun of helping others is seeing them [hopefully] succeed!
Indeed,  interested to know how it goes. 

I still think you should buy my 12 650R2's so you would be all Meyer! 

Have fun.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Daniel Martini on February 27, 2019, 02:45:18 pm
Ok! And I would Scott but I'm dead set on labs ;). Does anyone know if the m-3t processor would work just the same as the m-3a btw? Also is it possible to have one input into the hi sense from both channel's of an amp? Since I won't be needing the lo sense for subs I'd like to not have to buy four m-3a's but would rather consolidate.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 28, 2019, 08:27:17 am
Thanks Ivan & John! Very confused about the sense connectors but I will give Meyer a call. Will post pics and updates periodically if anyone is interested. You all have been very helpful!
The sense lines are for the limiters in the processor.  Community used to used them on their products back around the same time.

That way you can use an amp with any gain (I think Meyer said there is a minimum gain-NOT power output- the amp needed-but not remember exactly), and the limiters would "fire" when needed, without having to tell the processor what the gain of the amp was.

If the sense lines are not hooked up, the processor could get "confusing" ideas about what to do with the signal flow, because it is "looking for" the voltage coming back from the amp (via the sense lines)
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Mal Brown on February 28, 2019, 01:07:07 pm
Using a different processor with the KF's is silly.  They just aren't the same.  Just lime JBL SRX and VRX with V5 tunings.  It makes them all new boxes.

I believe Mal Brown another member here has KF's and,the processor.  You might want to reach out to him.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

I have 6 Renkus Trap40/60 over EAW La400s , 2 per side.  4 way using old BSS mini drives, tuned with smaart.   My traps have dual compression drivers on a manifold and 2 6.5 in cone driver firing into the horn.  Not young, not light, but well maintained and a really nice sounding rig.  In my neck of the woods, there are no venues that rig wont handle.  While I would like a cool RCF or DB Ingenia rig... this one is paid for;-)
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Daniel Martini on February 28, 2019, 01:34:18 pm
The sense lines are for the limiters in the processor.  Community used to used them on their products back around the same time.

That way you can use an amp with any gain (I think Meyer said there is a minimum gain-NOT power output- the amp needed-but not remember exactly), and the limiters would "fire" when needed, without having to tell the processor what the gain of the amp was.

If the sense lines are not hooked up, the processor could get "confusing" ideas about what to do with the signal flow, because it is "looking for" the voltage coming back from the amp (via the sense lines)

I'm getting that part for sure. My question is can I just use one m-3a for four amps but just connect the sense to one amp? I'll be using the mackies (425 a side @4ohm)  but if I have to connect both sides out from the amp into the sense then back out into a single input into the msl3a won't that be 850 watts? Or am I missing something? Is this where putting the amp in parallel mode comes in? For reference here is the schematic... https://meyersound.com/download/m-3a-resources/?wpdmdl=3160&masterkey=58b8aec1e3071
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on February 28, 2019, 06:09:11 pm
I'm getting that part for sure. My question is can I just use one m-3a for four amps but just connect the sense to one amp? I'll be using the mackies (425 a side @4ohm)  but if I have to connect both sides out from the amp into the sense then back out into a single input into the msl3a won't that be 850 watts? Or am I missing something? Is this where putting the amp in parallel mode comes in? For reference here is the schematic... https://meyersound.com/download/m-3a-resources/?wpdmdl=3160&masterkey=58b8aec1e3071

Hi Daniel, I am so lost following this thread.....
What possible connection is there between the mackies and the m3-a?
Get the Meyer's right, sub to taste I think...
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: John L Nobile on February 28, 2019, 06:42:17 pm
I'm getting that part for sure. My question is can I just use one m-3a for four amps but just connect the sense to one amp? I'll be using the mackies (425 a side @4ohm)  but if I have to connect both sides out from the amp into the sense then back out into a single input into the msl3a won't that be 850 watts? Or am I missing something? Is this where putting the amp in parallel mode comes in? For reference here is the schematic... https://meyersound.com/download/m-3a-resources/?wpdmdl=3160&masterkey=58b8aec1e3071

I've used 1 processor with 2 amps before. I just used the sense on 1 amp. Ideally you want the same model amps. I guess you could tap 4 leads from the Speakon, put banana plugs on them and plug em into the sense inputs. As long as the lo and hi go to the proper inputs, you should be fine.

Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on February 28, 2019, 09:33:13 pm
It's very important to make sure the amp gain is per the Meyer spec.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on February 28, 2019, 11:25:56 pm
I guess you could tap 4 leads from the Speakon, put banana plugs on them and plug em into the sense inputs. As long as the lo and hi go to the proper inputs, you should be fine.
What??!! No!!!

That would short all 4 amps together. And let the magic smoke out very quickly.

If the amplifiers for each passband are the same just use one sense line.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on March 01, 2019, 09:33:46 am
What??!! No!!!

That would short all 4 amps together. And let the magic smoke out very quickly.

If the amplifiers for each passband are the same just use one sense line.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Haha,  Danger Will Robinson...

The output from the processor goes to all amps' parallel inputs (subject to same passband and maintaining a 600 ohm load.)
The sense line should go on the amp with the highest voltage gain. Otherwise there will be no protection on amps with more gain than the amp the sense line is hooked to.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: John L Nobile on March 01, 2019, 12:21:31 pm
What??!! No!!!

That would short all 4 amps together. And let the magic smoke out very quickly.

If the amplifiers for each passband are the same just use one sense line.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Probably didn't explain that very well. Easier to picture with banana plugs and transfer that method to your speakons.

I'm still using older amps with banana terminals for my MSL3's and 650's. Amps are big and heavy but they stay in one room so I never have to lift them.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Daniel Martini on March 01, 2019, 04:00:57 pm
Haha,  Danger Will Robinson...

The output from the processor goes to all amps' parallel inputs (subject to same passband and maintaining a 600 ohm load.)
The sense line should go on the amp with the highest voltage gain. Otherwise there will be no protection on amps with more gain than the amp the sense line is hooked to.


Ok this makes sense and I will do this. For the record the mackies have banana outs and I will be using those instead of speakons. I understand now that you only need one amp sensing (and all the amps are the same so thats not an issue). The speakers and processor are still on there way (From Florida Ugh) so will experiment when they get here and keep you guys updated. HOWEVER I still don't understand why I need to connect one side of an amp to "Lo Sense" and one side to "Hi Sense". Why can't I just use one side and run a full range signal??  Isn't the "LO" for subwoofers or is the MSL3 bi amped??  Ive never worked with EP-4 connectors sooo. If anyone is in the the Seattle area who is familiar with vintage Meyer rigs I would love a hand setting this up and will compensate handsomely! Pm Me.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Steven Eudaly on March 01, 2019, 04:32:20 pm
Yes, the MSL3 must be bi-amped. Use amp channel 1 to run the LF section and channel 2 for the HF section. Connect the sense lines to their corresponding channels.  There are two different sense channels because each passband requires different limiting.

EDIT: You could, presumably, swap the EP4 connectors for NL4 pretty easily. If your M1400s have NL4 connectors that are set up to drive both channels down one cable (I cannot seem to find any info online about whether or not they do) you could really really simplify and standardize your cabling. Use the banana jacks for the sense leads and a single speakon output to drive both channels of the cabinet.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Art Welter on March 01, 2019, 04:42:59 pm

 Why can't I just use one side and run a full range signal??  Isn't the "LO" for subwoofers or is the MSL3 bi amped??  Ive never worked with EP-4 connectors sooo.
The MSL3 is bi-amped, a pair of the EP-4 connectors drive the pair of 12" ("LO"), the other pair drive the high frequency driver ("HI").
Early MSL3 also had piezo tweeters passively crossed in with the HF driver.
Each cabinet has an in and out EP-4, so a single four conductor cord from the amp rack and jumper cords can be used to drive multiple cabinets.

Having separate sense voltage lines allow the low and high drivers to be protected for their individual voltage vs frequency parameters.

PS. Same as Steven E wrote at the same time, about 40 years after the cabinets were made :^)

Art
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Daniel Martini on March 01, 2019, 07:45:46 pm
OHH! Ok now I understand!! Thanks Steven and Art! (Btw love your designs Art). I'm still gonna have a professional come and wire this up for me when they arrive. I hate to say It but this is over my head as I've only been doing this for about 5 years. Would rather have it done correctly. So like I said anyone in the PNW who is up for a challenge or any recommendations for meyer pros in the northwest please contact/let me know! Will definitely keep you guys updated with pics and info.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Daniel Martini on March 16, 2019, 06:33:47 pm
Hi guys! Meyers came in!!!! You guys were right they are MASSIVE. I have no idea how im gonna get them on labs except to buy a hoist or something :/

Anyway Art, Steven I know you said these were bi-amped but i only see one input and still don't understand the amp channel 1 to lows and channel 2 to highs thing. Like I literally don't understand how to wire channel 1 & 2 and combine them together to one output (presumably putting out 850 watts if my math is correct) if that is what everyone is suggesting. Was going to run 8 meyers off 4 mackie amps with two running per amp but if they need to be biamped then i don't see this happening. Very much a novice at this level of pro sound btw. Here are some picture! ...

https://i.imgur.com/SaNcYBW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/eKCxpY2.jpg
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Dave Garoutte on March 16, 2019, 08:09:27 pm
Note that there are four pins on the connector.
Two for lows and two for highs.
Which is which I can't say.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on March 16, 2019, 08:09:31 pm
Hi guys! Meyers came in!!!! You guys were right they are MASSIVE. I have no idea how im gonna get them on labs except to buy a hoist or something :/

Anyway Art, Steven I know you said these were bi-amped but i only see one input and still don't understand the amp channel 1 to lows and channel 2 to highs thing. Like I literally don't understand how to wire channel 1 & 2 and combine them together to one output (presumably putting out 850 watts if my math is correct) if that is what everyone is suggesting. Was going to run 8 meyers off 4 mackie amps with two running per amp but if they need to be biamped then i don't see this happening. Very much a novice at this level of pro sound btw. Here are some picture! ...

https://i.imgur.com/SaNcYBW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/eKCxpY2.jpg
The one input has 4 pins 2 are +/- for highs and two are for +/- on lows

The Meyer processor splits the highs and lows.  Let's just take one amp and one speaker.  L/R from board to processor input,. LF output from processor to channel 2 input on amp,. HF from processor to channel 1 input on amp.  Channel 1 output of amp to HF input on speaker,. Channel 2 output of amp to LF input on speaker.


Not sure about the 850 watt thing, just leave that alone for now. Once you get them playing we can talk about voltage limiter settings for protection.

As far as moving them, to say you have a task ahead of you with the logistics on those things is an understatement.  You can't get too big a caster for your wheel boards.  If I had to move those I would be looking at some 18" wheels so I could push it with one finger.   (I am only partially kidding).  Maybe you can get one of those forklifts with the sulkie on the back.  Just tell the clubs you need a 30" aisle for your material handling stuff.  ROFL.

Have fun

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Daniel Martini on March 18, 2019, 02:20:30 am
Hahaha. Did a little research on here... looks like this might suffice! https://www.amazon.com/Wesco-260002-Hydraulic-Pedalift-Capacity/dp/B000KL38W6?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&psc=1

Thoughts?

Also Scott thanks for the walk through of the wiring! However according to your instructions, If i wire both left and right outputs from my amp into one ep-4 input connection into the msl then that means I'm only able to run one speaker off one amp? I was told I would be able to run all 8 msl's off 4 mackies??
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on March 18, 2019, 02:24:25 am
Hmmm...a $1200 material list.

Anyway, you would simply put the cabinets in parallel.  Just make sure you don't present too low impedance to the amps. 

Does this make sense?

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Daniel Martini on March 18, 2019, 09:35:07 am
I'm not following :/
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: John L Nobile on March 18, 2019, 10:14:20 am
Hahaha. Did a little research on here... looks like this might suffice! https://www.amazon.com/Wesco-260002-Hydraulic-Pedalift-Capacity/dp/B000KL38W6?source=ps-sl-shoppingads-lpcontext&psc=1

Thoughts?

Also Scott thanks for the walk through of the wiring! However according to your instructions, If i wire both left and right outputs from my amp into one ep-4 input connection into the msl then that means I'm only able to run one speaker off one amp? I was told I would be able to run all 8 msl's off 4 mackies??

One more thing to carry around and it's not light either.
Lifting MSL3's on subs for me has always involved at least 3 guys. 4 is better. I've done it with 2 but I was younger then and the other guy was big and strong. And make sure you strap them down. They move and tip easily.

Wiring seems to be a challenge. Best thing would be to custom build a patch panel to your amps. Or have someone make that for you. It would make setups so much faster, easier and flexible.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 18, 2019, 02:18:44 pm
I'm not following :/

The snarky side of me says "sell all your gear, you're too ignorant to use it."

However, ignorance can be remediated, so here's my attempt:

The MSL3 have a pair of jacks on the back that are wired in *parallel*.  That means that each connector's pins are connected to its corresponding pin on the other connector.  IOW, pin 1 on the top connector is wired to pin 1 on the bottom connector, and (for illustrative purposes, not as a matter of fact) connected to the + terminal of the Low section; pin 2 on the top connector is wired to pin 2 of the bottom connector and to the negative terminal of the Low section; pin 3 wired to pin 3 and the + terminal of the High section, ditto for pin 4 tp the negative terminal.  Note that loudspeaker manufacturers differ on which pairs of pins are used to connect the HF/LF and yours may be different from my explanation, but the concept of parallel connection is the same regardless.

You use a short cable to connect 2 MSL3 to each other, and a longer cable to connect them to the amp.  Each amplifier can drive 2 speakers this way.

If this doesn't clear up things for you, sell.... or hire someone to put this rig together.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: John L Nobile on March 18, 2019, 03:11:43 pm
Look on Meyer's website and download any MSL3 docs you can find. Wiring for EP4 connectors has always been this for me and is also what Meyer shows

Pin 1 = Lo + (hot)
Pin 2 = Lo - (common)
Pin 3 = Hi - (common)
Pin 4 = Hi + (hot)

To be safe, do a continuity check between Pins 3 & 4 to the hi end driver before connecting your amp. You don't know the history of these so they may have been rewired.

But as Tim said, if this confuses you, get some help. And ask questions.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 18, 2019, 04:50:34 pm

Also Scott thanks for the walk through of the wiring! However according to your instructions, If i wire both left and right outputs from my amp into one ep-4 input connection into the msl then that means I'm only able to run one speaker off one amp? I was told I would be able to run all 8 msl's off 4 mackies??

You can run 2 cabinet in parallel off of each amp.  It should work fine.

There are a couple of ways of doing that, either add more jacks to the cabinets or home run each cable and make a patch panel that will parallel 4 sets/pairs of connectors.
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Daniel Martini on March 20, 2019, 01:32:08 am
Thanks John, Tim and Ivan! That helped significantly! Will most likely have someone help me build a patch bay. I'm so used to just plug and play neutrik that I never expected this to be so challenging but I want to persevere. Im 23 so I have a lot to learn about vintage gear and I definitely don't want to sell these because even if they are almost 40 years old they are still Meyer and I'm already in love with them lol. Ordered the EP-4's and gonna give this a go! 
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on March 20, 2019, 02:46:43 am
Thanks John, Tim and Ivan! That helped significantly! Will most likely have someone help me build a patch bay. I'm so used to just plug and play neutrik that I never expected this to be so challenging but I want to persevere. Im 23 so I have a lot to learn about vintage gear and I definitely don't want to sell these because even if they are almost 40 years old they are still Meyer and I'm already in love with them lol. Ordered the EP-4's and gonna give this a go!
Wouldn't you really be in love with all Meyer?  I still have those 12 650R2's .  The racks are cabled and ready to go.  Tell you what you buy the subs I will make you your panels for your mains!

Just having fun, this is not a hard pitch.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Daniel Martini on March 20, 2019, 08:23:05 pm
I'll PM you!
Title: Re: Kick bins and tops for labs.
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on March 23, 2019, 04:54:34 am
Would it be possible to simply convert the cabs to SpeakOn connectors?
I feel like that'd avoid a lot of messing around.

Chris