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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Lighting Forum => Topic started by: Miguel Dahl on January 19, 2019, 11:19:56 am

Title: Networking: Dante with DMX / ArtNet on the same cable?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on January 19, 2019, 11:19:56 am
I'm a soundguy, this si my first visit to the lighting-subforums here.

I'm trying to make my company be more efficient, instead of using a plethora of different cat-cables I'm looking into how much I can trunk down to one cable and the same switches. I spoke to our lighing-guy, and got the response of "uugh, why? that can't be done".

So the question is. Is anyone using the same network for Dante with ArtNet and / or just dmx over ethernet? Does it "work", any pitfalls? I'm thinking about VLAN for the lighting-stuff. Sorry for a newb question, but I feel I need some input to base my further research on.
Title: Re: Networking: Dante with DMX / ArtNet on the same cable?
Post by: frank kayser on January 19, 2019, 11:03:53 pm
I think the number of channels used in the DMX universe will play a part in how much of the wire will be used.  More channels, more packets.  Thankfully the Artnet IV released in 2016 is much more data efficient.


Dante I also assume is going to be variable bandwidth use as well. 


So I guess one consideration is the size of your rig/show and the lighting show.
Title: Re: Networking: Dante with DMX / ArtNet on the same cable?
Post by: Erik Jerde on January 19, 2019, 11:20:24 pm
Do a little googling to help you figure out your show specific bandwidth usage.  I have an install where there are clans for Dante primary, secondary, lighting, comms, and general production.  Zero problems.  Iím planning to upgrade to 2 port lag groups trunking between each switch but thatís more to do with redundancy than bandwidth.  I have dedicated Dante primary switches.  Dante secondary shares hardware.
Title: Re: Networking: Dante with DMX / ArtNet on the same cable?
Post by: Erik Jerde on January 19, 2019, 11:22:42 pm
Also, what is ďjust dmx over Ethernet?Ē 
Title: Re: Networking: Dante with DMX / ArtNet on the same cable?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on January 21, 2019, 03:40:57 pm
The bandwith will be pretty low. I'm currently just researching this for for a simple "one technichian" thing. Where for instance I'm doing a small corporate thing where I can trigger cues to light up just a few positions and just some general lighting and still have focus on my sound console.

As for "just DMX" over ethernet I thought one can send DMX straight from the laptop through the NIC. Maybe I'm wrong about this. I'm running show cue systems so I guess I'd need an usb -> DMX adapter, which in that case I guess I'd need to run a DMX line to the stage.
Title: Re: Networking: Dante with DMX / ArtNet on the same cable?
Post by: Erik Jerde on January 21, 2019, 05:12:33 pm
The bandwith will be pretty low. I'm currently just researching this for for a simple "one technichian" thing. Where for instance I'm doing a small corporate thing where I can trigger cues to light up just a few positions and just some general lighting and still have focus on my sound console.

As for "just DMX" over ethernet I thought one can send DMX straight from the laptop through the NIC. Maybe I'm wrong about this. I'm running show cue systems so I guess I'd need an usb -> DMX adapter, which in that case I guess I'd need to run a DMX line to the stage.

Canít sent DMX from the NIC.  DMX is a different signaling standard than Ethernet.
Title: Re: Networking: Dante with DMX / ArtNet on the same cable?
Post by: Lyle Williams on January 21, 2019, 08:36:49 pm
I see no problems from a bandwidth point of view in a small rig.

Keeping fault-finding domains clearly separated can be a good thing.  Eg, if the sound guys are having dante problems they may blame the dmx, and ask that it be disconnected.  Once they have sorted out their sound problems, the time impacts might have made life hell for the lighting guys.

Title: Re: Networking: Dante with DMX / ArtNet on the same cable?
Post by: James Feenstra on January 23, 2019, 12:45:00 am
you'll definitely want to set up separate vlans for dante and for artnet/sacn

I'd also not really trust a single point of failure for both audio and lighting, but that's just me
Title: Re: Networking: Dante with DMX / ArtNet on the same cable?
Post by: Mal Brown on January 23, 2019, 11:19:05 am
For me... I keep audio on a LAN (Dante, Madi, etc) and use wireless to get lighting from FOH or Booth to the future by position.  I use the inexpensive Donner Units.  Iíve been between 100 and 150 feet out with no issues.  I ran with a simple dmx controller and transmitter at FOH all last season.  1 receiver per each of 6 positions .  Daisy chained by wire to the individual fixtures at each position.

Alternatively run a separate cat 5 from lighting controller/pc / wireless router to something like an Enttech or DMXKing open DMX converter and cable or Donner Dongle from there.   I did that when using Luminaire a few years back.   Luminaire didnít make the cut for me so I went back to hardware.
Title: Re: Networking: Dante with DMX / ArtNet on the same cable?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on January 25, 2019, 02:08:10 pm
For me... I keep audio on a LAN (Dante, Madi, etc) and use wireless to get lighting from FOH or Booth to the future by position.  I use the inexpensive Donner Units.  Iíve been between 100 and 150 feet out with no issues.  I ran with a simple dmx controller and transmitter at FOH all last season.  1 receiver per each of 6 positions .  Daisy chained by wire to the individual fixtures at each position.

Alternatively run a separate cat 5 from lighting controller/pc / wireless router to something like an Enttech or DMXKing open DMX converter and cable or Donner Dongle from there.   I did that when using Luminaire a few years back.   Luminaire didnít make the cut for me so I went back to hardware.

I'm looking into an Enttech usb->DMX which I can use with SCS. But then I'd need to run a DMX cable to the splitter. Running one extra cable isn't the biggest hassle in the world. Maybe I'll just skip the thought of just using cat5 for everything and use my time elsewhere using standard cables for the different signals going.
Title: Re: Networking: Dante with DMX / ArtNet on the same cable?
Post by: Lyle Williams on January 25, 2019, 02:44:31 pm
You can out ordinary DMX512 (the serial RS485-based stuff normally found on an XLR5 or XLR3) over Cat5 wiring.  It doesn't have to be put onto ethernet first if you have a spare cable run.

If you are running dante at 100Mbit/s, then only wires 1,2,3&6 are being used for ethernet on Cat5.  You could make an adapter to allow DMX to be carried on the unused pairs (4&5, 7&8.)   Gigabit ethernet on Cat5 sadly uses all four pairs so another cable would be required.
Title: Re: Networking: Dante with DMX / ArtNet on the same cable?
Post by: Erik Jerde on January 25, 2019, 10:24:08 pm
I'm looking into an Enttech usb->DMX which I can use with SCS. But then I'd need to run a DMX cable to the splitter. Running one extra cable isn't the biggest hassle in the world. Maybe I'll just skip the thought of just using cat5 for everything and use my time elsewhere using standard cables for the different signals going.

I think you're fine running it over the network.  VLANs is a smart idea.  You should be running at least two cables anyways between your two switches.  Link aggregation groups (LAG) gives you more bandwidth and always on redundancy should one cable fail, get unplugged, or otherwise get damaged.  You can then standardize your long runs as just good high quality ethernet cables (or fiber if you want) and not have to carry additional long DMX cables.  Plus if you ever need more universes you're already set to go, no more additional cables to add to the mix.