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Title: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Robert Lunceford on January 16, 2019, 09:56:10 pm
Is there a preferred kick drum mic for use on a 20Ē non-ported kick drum? This is for live performance.
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Geert Friedhof on January 16, 2019, 10:14:50 pm
sm58!

Really. Just use sm58 on everything, and i mean everything.
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 16, 2019, 10:37:52 pm
Is there a preferred kick drum mic for use on a 20Ē non-ported kick drum? This is for live performance.

RE-20, MD421.  Nothing too pre-EQ'd like a D112 or Beta 52 (unless the artist asks for it).

One of the best drum kit sounds I've had for jazz as a pair of AKG C460, x-y pair over the drummer.  He wanted a little more bass drum in his wedge, I boosted 60Hz +3dB and he gave me the thumbs up.  Moral of story - you may not "need" a mic (but having one in place is still a good thing).
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Geert Friedhof on January 16, 2019, 10:55:05 pm
RE-20, MD421.  ...

Those would be good choices too, imho. Put the mic more near the rim, instead of the centre of the head. If a Slingerland put it near one of the dampers. Take your time to experiment. I also had good results with placing the mic at the beater head side of the kick.
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Ron Bolte on January 16, 2019, 10:56:21 pm
i like an M88... on the beater side.  I feel like I get a lot more of the nuance of a good jazz player that way.
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Eric Snodgrass on January 16, 2019, 11:46:01 pm
I've had really good results with a Shure KSM32. 
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: duane massey on January 17, 2019, 02:25:12 am
Make certain to listen to a few recordings from the era. Kick drum in traditional small-group jazz is NOT the same thing as more contemporary jazz, and DEFINITELY not like any current music.
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on January 17, 2019, 03:36:39 am
I like my SE Electronics X1D for all kick drum applications. It's pretty much flat, even down to very low frequencies, so it just sounds like whatever instrument you've put it in front of.

Chris
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Jeff Bankston on January 17, 2019, 04:04:07 am
RE-20, MD421.  Nothing too pre-EQ'd like a D112 or Beta 52 (unless the artist asks for it).

One of the best drum kit sounds I've had for jazz as a pair of AKG C460, x-y pair over the drummer.  He wanted a little more bass drum in his wedge, I boosted 60Hz +3dB and he gave me the thumbs up.  Moral of story - you may not "need" a mic (but having one in place is still a good thing).
I use AKG 460 with CK61 capsule for my overheads.
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Steve M Smith on January 17, 2019, 06:35:22 am
sm58!

Really. Just use sm58 on everything, and i mean everything.

Yes.  On a few occasions when I haven't had a 'proper' mic, an SM58 has worked fine.

Go back thirty years and we used SM57s and SM58s on the whole kit.


Steve.
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Scott Helmke on January 17, 2019, 09:09:51 am
Make certain to listen to a few recordings from the era. Kick drum in traditional small-group jazz is NOT the same thing as more contemporary jazz, and DEFINITELY not like any current music.

In jazz the kick drum is used more like another tom.

I personally like the old CAD E100, from a few inches away.
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 17, 2019, 09:57:11 am
In jazz the kick drum is used more like another tom.

I personally like the old CAD E100, from a few inches away.

I love my E100 mics but don't get a chance to use them much.  I got mine after working with "Cello Man" Eugene Friesen, who carried one.
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Steven Eudaly on January 17, 2019, 10:56:20 am
Heil PR40 has always been very neutral (in a good way) for my kick drum uses.
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Mal Brown on January 17, 2019, 11:21:33 am
In my locker, a 421 is usually the call.  I would like to try the Beyer on the beater side though...  might try the 421 that way first.  I donít really need to buy the Beyer just for that I hope ;-)
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on January 17, 2019, 02:03:53 pm
In my locker, a 421 is usually the call.  I would like to try the Beyer on the beater side though...  might try the 421 that way first.  I donít really need to buy the Beyer just for that I hope ;-)

If we're talking about the M88, I don't think there's a situation where it's a poor choice of mic.
Sounds good, rejects off-axis well.

I also have a couple of 201s, which are a similar beast.

Chris
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 18, 2019, 12:55:09 am
If we're talking about the M88, I don't think there's a situation where it's a poor choice of mic.
Sounds good, rejects off-axis well.

I also have a couple of 201s, which are a similar beast.

Chris

The M201 is a great all purpose dynamic that I particularly like on the snare drum; I don't think I've been disappointed with it on any instrument.

The Beyer M88 *in* the kick drum is soooo 1980s, but so would be a Senny MD421.  Both nice mics, never intended to be inside a bass drum with a wood beater.  Early adopters of the M88 found that out.  The TG version was/is much sturdier. :)

The M88 on a jazz bass drum?  It's a little hyped on the top end but I don't think it's detrimental; and supplementing a stereo pair it could be just the thing to "anchor" the center of the drum kit image.
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on January 18, 2019, 02:54:18 am
The M201 is a great all purpose dynamic that I particularly like on the snare drum; I don't think I've been disappointed with it on any instrument.



One of my personal favorites as well.

"If the SM57 were a microphone, it would sound like this."
https://www.electricalaudio.com/item.php?page=140&pic=pictures/140.jpg
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Dave Garoutte on January 18, 2019, 12:16:57 pm

"If the SM57 were a microphone, it would sound like this."


Wait.. then what is it?? :o
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on January 18, 2019, 03:17:15 pm
Wait.. then what is it?? :o

An FX unit that looks like a mic..?

Chris
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Geoff Doane on January 20, 2019, 09:32:17 pm
In jazz the kick drum is used more like another tom.


Question on a university jazz music exam:  What is the purpose of the bass drum in Jazz?

Answer:  To hold up the ride cymbal.

On a gig a few years ago (I was the recording mobile tech, not recording engineer or FOH) with the jazz drummer that played on a certain animated Christmas special that everyone has heard of, I was assisting with mic'ing up the stage.  The RE had worked with this drummer many times in the past, and already had his mic preferences selected, when the artist stated, "No bass drum mic.  It's too tempting."  I'm pretty sure he was concerned about FOH, not the recording when he said that, but it was obvious that this was not a negotiable point.

So, instead of the M88 that was destined for the kick, the C414-ULS that was originally going to go on the floor tom was placed about 3 feet out in front as an "ambient" mic (circled in blue).  I think the only others were a B&K 4011 on snare and a pair of Schoeps Colettes as overheads. 

It worked.

GTD

Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on January 21, 2019, 04:00:30 pm
  I think the only others were a B&K 4011 on snare ....

GTD

Now THAT is a fun mic on snare.
Actually, on anything that makes sound. My old boss used to say that they were well suited for anything from Melodica to a F16.

Try it on kick as well if you have the option.
 
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 21, 2019, 08:00:40 pm
I don't jazz gig much, but when I have, I've been happy with my (old) SM91 sitting on the floor in front of the kick and a pair of OH....
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Robert Patch on January 28, 2019, 08:15:52 pm
I do mostly jazz and for closed back bass drum I use a Beyerdynamic TG-X50 with very good results.  I use a completely different mic for kick drums  :D
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Jay Barracato on January 28, 2019, 08:41:59 pm
I do mostly jazz and for closed back bass drum I use a Beyerdynamic TG-X50 with very good results.  I use a completely different mic for kick drums  :D
Did a jazz crooner whose pianist was the musical director of the trio ( bass and vocal-the name of the act, piano, and drums). The mic didn't matter because the pianist had me turn down to basically off everything but the vocal mic and the piano.

At that point I am trying to explain that the only drums in the FOH system is the bleed through the stereo 414's on the lidless grand

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Stephen Kirby on January 28, 2019, 10:05:21 pm
RE-20 is kind of a standard.  With no port, another option is a ribbon a bit out in front.  One of the most amazing kick drums sounds I ever got was with a Coles out front of the drum.  But a Cascade Fathead or even an MXL R40 would give a balanced sound that isn't as "thumpy" as an RE-20.
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on January 29, 2019, 01:23:19 pm
RE-20 is kind of a standard.  With no port, another option is a ribbon a bit out in front.

Question about using ribbons live - how much trouble is the rear lobe of the figure-of-8 pattern?
I've a Cadenza ribbon here that gets used occasionally, and I'd like it to see more use if there's something it's likely to do well.

Chris
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on January 29, 2019, 01:51:07 pm
Question about using ribbons live - how much trouble is the rear lobe of the figure-of-8 pattern?
I've a Cadenza ribbon here that gets used occasionally, and I'd like it to see more use if there's something it's likely to do well.

Chris

I sometimes use Royer 121 on guitar amps, it works rather well. Not had any issues in terms of feedback and haven't noticed any significant noise issues.
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Stephen Kirby on January 29, 2019, 07:31:23 pm
Question about using ribbons live - how much trouble is the rear lobe of the figure-of-8 pattern?
I've a Cadenza ribbon here that gets used occasionally, and I'd like it to see more use if there's something it's likely to do well.

Chris
With a loud source like a kick drum or guitar amp the gain isn't high enough for the rear lobe to pick up wedges enough to cause problems.  Might be an issue with an acoustic guitar or something.  Never done that.
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on January 30, 2019, 07:42:00 am
With a loud source like a kick drum or guitar amp the gain isn't high enough for the rear lobe to pick up wedges enough to cause problems.  Might be an issue with an acoustic guitar or something.  Never done that.

I can see potential for ribbon mics in live sound, even on quieter sources. The good ones have symmetrical pickup patterns at all frequencies, so if you carefully aim the null, direct sound from the wedges should be zero.
Of course, that pesky thing called acoustics will mess that up in a lot of situations.

I suspect that an outdoor festival with all the musicians on a single mic would probably benefit from the absolute rejection of the PA system from the figure-of-8 pattern, but such events are pretty rare over here.

Chris
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Scott Helmke on January 30, 2019, 09:10:04 am
I can see potential for ribbon mics in live sound, even on quieter sources. The good ones have symmetrical pickup patterns at all frequencies, so if you carefully aim the null, direct sound from the wedges should be zero.
Of course, that pesky thing called acoustics will mess that up in a lot of situations.

I suspect that an outdoor festival with all the musicians on a single mic would probably benefit from the absolute rejection of the PA system from the figure-of-8 pattern, but such events are pretty rare over here.

I've used figure-8 patterns with condensor mics live. It's all about where you aim the other side of the pattern, ideally straight up into empty air.  The side nulls of a figure-8 are deeper than anything you can get from a cardioid.  For instance a single figure-8 mic overhead on a vibraphone can work really well.
Title: Re: Jazz Kick Mic
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 30, 2019, 03:22:37 pm
I've used figure-8 patterns with condensor mics live. It's all about where you aim the other side of the pattern, ideally straight up into empty air.  The side nulls of a figure-8 are deeper than anything you can get from a cardioid.  For instance a single figure-8 mic overhead on a vibraphone can work really well.

Have you tried it on hammered dulcimer?  The acoustic output isn't as loud as vibes but the area to cover is about the same...

Anyone here worked with the Joshua Messick Trio?  Lots of percussion too, and a cello.  Great guys to work with and their music is waaaay cool.

Thanks for the thought-nudge, Scott!