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Title: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: LeVan Moxley on December 12, 2018, 09:02:19 pm
This video got posted a couple weeks back and I was very impressed with the audio quality.  Mick seems to be holding the 58 a good distance from his mouth.  The vocal clarity is remarkable.  I don't think that there's any way possible for me to get a 58 to sound like this, especially considering parts of the video where he's 10-14" from his mouth.  Am I crazy, ignorant, foolish, etc. or can someone explain to me how this is being accomplished?

Some of the comments in the video description suggest that it's lip-sync.  I've watched it over and over and I don't see it.  Anyway, thanks for your input on this.

I wasn't exactly sure where to post this.  So if this is not the correct board please forgive me.  I realize there are some pro-engineers that frequent here and thought that they could give me some insight.

https://youtu.be/l7GnVHmTiI8 (https://youtu.be/l7GnVHmTiI8)
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Luke Geis on December 12, 2018, 09:42:47 pm
It is very possible and not remarkably hard to do.

The clarity is mostly due to the lack of proximity effect. His voice is likely very well suited for the SM58 and there are other tricks that can be done as well to make the vocal sound less distant.  I would bet a bit of expansion is being used and let's face it, this is a live recording that is produced in the studio, so there is a vault full of studio tricks to make the vocal sound right.

If you get off the mic a little bit to reduce proximity effect you can really clean the vocal sound up. The beauty is that with some multiband dynamics you can tailor each octave to really give up the goods. You can make it sound full when the signal is weak and then the compressor will pull back the lows when the singer gets in on the mic some more. This evens out the tonality of the mic even though his distance changes. A compressor, in general, will make the vocal louder in general and even out the change in SPL when the mic is moved. An expander will help take the background and stage wash out of the mic when he is not singing or pausing for a breath.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: LeVan Moxley on December 12, 2018, 10:01:15 pm
Thanks Luke for the insight.  I understand about the lack of proximity effect because of the distance from the mic.  Yep, tons of things can change in post.  My lack of experience in some of the areas you are referring to makes this vocal clarity seem remarkable to me.  Merry Chistmas.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Art Welter on December 12, 2018, 10:01:50 pm
The vocal clarity is remarkable.  I don't think that there's any way possible for me to get a 58 to sound like this, especially considering parts of the video where he's 10-14" from his mouth.  Am I crazy, ignorant, foolish, etc. or can someone explain to me how this is being accomplished?

Some of the comments in the video description suggest that it's lip-sync. 
LeVan,

Ditto Luke's post, but I've already written mine, so here it is:
Once away from the usual rock & roll "kissing the mic" distance the proximity effect (huge bass boost) of a typical dynamic cardioid mic is reduced, which makes for more "clarity", as long as the vocalist is louder than the ambient level.

A good, strong vocalist can dynamically work the mic at distance when not competing against musicians and monitors playing too loud, especially after rehearsing and singing the song thousands of times.

Using in-ear monitors, a large space, and mains placed quite some distance from the singer gain before feedback in a balanced orchestral situation is not a problem, and the result can be quite pleasant.

That said, a good singer could also re-do the vocal afterwards if the original recording was not quite as good as desired, and you'd not be able to tell whether the new track was lip-synched.

Art
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: LeVan Moxley on December 12, 2018, 10:19:15 pm
Thanks Art.  That's why these people are professionals.  They're great at their profession.  Merry Christmas.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 12, 2018, 11:07:13 pm
Thanks Art.  That's why these people are professionals.  They're great at their profession.  Merry Christmas.

Gosh Mick Hucknall (sp?) still has an amazing voice after all these years. 

One of the dirty little secrets is the better the artist the easier they are to mix.  It's the shity bands in shity rooms that are a pain in the ass.  You never get all they have in the sound check.  Every db of gain before feedback is a precious commodity and the deck is stacked against you.

Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: LeVan Moxley on December 12, 2018, 11:17:00 pm
Gosh Mick Hucknall (sp?) still has an amazing voice after all these years. 

One of the dirty little secrets is the better the artist the easier they are to mix.  It's the shity bands in shity rooms that are a pain in the ass.  You never get all they have in the sound check.  Every db of gain before feedback is a precious commodity and the deck is stacked against you.

I guess he's still holding on, lol.  Sorry, it was an easy setup.  I totally get the "better the artist, easier to mix" deal.  In my experience that has definitely been the case.  Amen on the headroom with gain before fb.  Thanks.  Merry Christmas
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Josh Hana on December 13, 2018, 12:02:29 am
A few things at play here:
I'm guessing a relatively quiet stage (I'm seeing iems and no wedges, with some plexi shields)
The fact that this was almost certainly multi-tracked and mixed after the fact in a studio (where someone could spend several hours just working on getting a rock solid vocal chain)
And the fact that the guy has a good voice.

The sm58 isn't a cure-all, but there's also a reason it's so ubiquitous. It gets the job done.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Karel Noon on December 13, 2018, 02:09:16 am
I saw two singers doing that on a festival, one of them mick hucknal, the other was Lionel Richie.

What can I say: it all depends on the source!
It was amazing to see how good it worked with simply red, and how bad it was right after that.

So yeah, if you have a real singer, no big deal :)
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Roland Clarke on December 13, 2018, 05:03:46 am
Well we all know how ďrubbishĒ, SM 58ís Sound, all those threads looking for a better mic thatís going to cure all the things wrong with their singer.  My experience has always been that great vocalists sound great on them, Mick is no exception.  I saw them at Brighton, Iím sure it was Chris ďprivetĒ Hedge doing the mix.  When they started it sounded good, I could hear him going through the channels during the first song, tightening things up and it was a good mix throughout the night.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: DavidTurner on December 13, 2018, 08:06:53 am
I think that the short answer is "put it in front of that guy."

A couple of decades ago I was providing PA for a John Anderson show (Swinging, not Roundabout) and was curious to find out how his BE would get that unique John Anderson sound. The answer: put a 58 in front of him and turn it up.

On a similar note, there was a thread in the PSW recording forums a few years ago asking how to get that "John Bonham" drum sound. The reply from a famous recording engineer was: "It helps to have John Bonham playing the drums."

This video got posted a couple weeks back and I was very impressed with the audio quality.  Mick seems to be holding the 58 a good distance from his mouth.  The vocal clarity is remarkable.  I don't think that there's any way possible for me to get a 58 to sound like this, especially considering parts of the video where he's 10-14" from his mouth.  Am I crazy, ignorant, foolish, etc. or can someone explain to me how this is being accomplished?

Some of the comments in the video description suggest that it's lip-sync.  I've watched it over and over and I don't see it.  Anyway, thanks for your input on this.

I wasn't exactly sure where to post this.  So if this is not the correct board please forgive me.  I realize there are some pro-engineers that frequent here and thought that they could give me some insight.

https://youtu.be/l7GnVHmTiI8 (https://youtu.be/l7GnVHmTiI8)
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Chris Hindle on December 13, 2018, 08:31:49 am
On a similar note, there was a thread in the PSW recording forums a few years ago asking how to get that "John Bonham" drum sound. The reply from a famous recording engineer was: "It helps to have John Bonham playing the drums."

Did a festival last century. Playing some Genesis Live while getting things sorted.
The drummer from the headliner comes up to me.. "Those drums sound awesome. Can you make me sound like that?"
Sure I said, pointing to my processing rack. I've got all the goodies, but You CAN play like Phil Collins, right?
Loudest thing at the mic wins. Period.
Chris.
And yes, I still use 58's and 57's, among many others. Not always the best, but certainly never the worst.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: John Halliburton on December 13, 2018, 08:55:49 am
Did a festival last century. Playing some Genesis Live while getting things sorted.
The drummer from the headliner comes up to me.. "Those drums sound awesome. Can you make me sound like that?"
Sure I said, pointing to my processing rack. I've got all the goodies, but You CAN play like Phil Collins, right?
Loudest thing at the mic wins. Period.
Chris.
And yes, I still use 58's and 57's, among many others. Not always the best, but certainly never the worst.

Someone(a well known big time studio engineer whose name escapes me-Swedien maybe?) once said-"if you can't make it sound good with 57s..."

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: DavidTurner on December 13, 2018, 09:05:23 am
I have heard this quote attributed to Phil Ramone: "if you can't get a good sound with a 57 and a porta studio, you won't get a good sound with a U87 and a Neve."

Someone(a well known big time studio engineer whose name escapes me-Swedien maybe?) once said-"if you can't make it sound good with 57s..."

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 13, 2018, 11:46:04 am
Quote from: Chris Hindle link=topic=169551.msg1563368#msg1563368
date=1544707909
Did a festival last century. Playing some Genesis Live while getting things sorted.
The drummer from the headliner comes up to me.. "Those drums sound awesome. Can you make me sound like that?"
Sure I said, pointing to my processing rack. I've got all the goodies, but You CAN play like Phil Collins, right?
Loudest thing at the mic wins. Period.
Chris.
And yes, I still use 58's and 57's, among many others. Not always the best, but certainly never the worst.

Or Genesis's "Seconds Out" live album... (first recording after Peter Gabriel's departure) with Bill Bruford, Phil Collins and Chester Thompson drumming.  Avoid the remastered version put out recently.  Horrible work.  They should have re-mixed rather than do what all they did to the 2 track.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: John L Nobile on December 13, 2018, 11:51:54 am
This guy knows how to use a mic. It's like a manual compressor.  I don't see many singers who know the term mic technique anymore.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on December 13, 2018, 12:49:12 pm
WOW - sheer class. I think he sounds better now than he did back then!....
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Steve Garris on December 13, 2018, 12:53:34 pm
WOW - sheer class. I think he sounds better now than he did back then!....

Yes, it's a beautiful performance and reminds me of the joy that music brings to my life!
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on December 13, 2018, 12:58:45 pm
Yes, it's a beautiful performance and reminds me of the joy that music brings to my life!

Me too Steve. I just wish I was in that category of sound pros who get the opportunity to run sound at shows like that.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: LeVan Moxley on December 13, 2018, 10:01:12 pm
I wonder if Mick did multiple shows when this was recorded at the Ziggo Dome.  There's other videos of the same song on Youtube that were shot on cell phones the night of the show.  There are some obvious differences between those vids and this pro shot.  I remember back in 05 when the Eagles released their Farewell DVD live from Melbourne.  If I recall correctly, they did three shows over three consecutive nights and then combined the best out of the three and made the DVD.  The sound of that DVD is remarkable also.   
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 14, 2018, 12:32:04 am
I wonder if Mick did multiple shows when this was recorded at the Ziggo Dome.  There's other videos of the same song on Youtube that were shot on cell phones the night of the show.  There are some obvious differences between those vids and this pro shot.  I remember back in 05 when the Eagles released their Farewell DVD live from Melbourne.  If I recall correctly, they did three shows over three consecutive nights and then combined the best out of the three and made the DVD.  The sound of that DVD is remarkable also.

That also sounds like the way Peter Gabriel does his live video - usually more than 1 night in the same venue, video is composited, audio is sweetened in the studio (sometimes very obviously so in the video).  Still great documents of the concerts as they might have happened. ;)
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Jim McKeveny on December 14, 2018, 09:54:51 am
My advice to all young soundpeople and vocalists: Learn to love the 58.

Its ubiquity makes it the defacto benchmark for humans-on-a-mic-in-an-amplified-setting...for both listeners and presenters. 
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on December 14, 2018, 10:56:56 am
My advice to all young soundpeople and vocalists: Learn to love the 58.

Its ubiquity makes it the defacto benchmark for humans-on-a-mic-in-an-amplified-setting...for both listeners and presenters.

Doesn't that just contribute to the inertia we see in the industry?

I feel like we're making huge progress in a lot of areas - we're getting bigger sounds out of smaller speakers than ever, and look at the power amplifiers and processing available today. Digital desks have made huge leaps in quality and feature sets.
Stuff that wasn't really possible a couple of decades ago is now available in a 1U chassis.

Why are we still feeding all this wonderful tech with a mic that's verging on antique status?
We spend all this time and effort choosing the best PA, tweaking the angles and making the graphs perfect, and then we grab the mic that's merely good enough..?
No, thanks.

Chris

PS - it's entirely possible that the mic in the video merely looks like a '58. Could be anything behind the grille.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Roland Clarke on December 14, 2018, 12:17:26 pm
Doesn't that just contribute to the inertia we see in the industry?

I feel like we're making huge progress in a lot of areas - we're getting bigger sounds out of smaller speakers than ever, and look at the power amplifiers and processing available today. Digital desks have made huge leaps in quality and feature sets.
Stuff that wasn't really possible a couple of decades ago is now available in a 1U chassis.

Why are we still feeding all this wonderful tech with a mic that's verging on antique status?
We spend all this time and effort choosing the best PA, tweaking the angles and making the graphs perfect, and then we grab the mic that's merely good enough..?
No, thanks.

Chris

PS - it's entirely possible that the mic in the video merely looks like a '58. Could be anything behind the grille.

Good conspiracy theory, except that itís been much publicised his love for a standard 58 for live for quite a long time.

On the other point, for all the developments in audio, mics havenít changed much, proven by the love for vintage neumanns, AKGís and other great dynamic mics like Sennheiser 421ís/441ís, Beyer m88ís.  A lot of newer mics have had quick surges of interest, but then people sink back to 57ís, 58ís.  All mics have their flaws, even expensive new ones.  Perhaps we should talk about different rather than better? 🤔
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: John L Nobile on December 14, 2018, 12:31:20 pm
My advice to all young soundpeople and vocalists: Learn to love the 58.

Its ubiquity makes it the defacto benchmark for humans-on-a-mic-in-an-amplified-setting...for both listeners and presenters.

I'd like to know how many pros DON'T have a 58/57 in their mic closet.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Chris Hindle on December 14, 2018, 12:31:45 pm

Why are we still feeding all this wonderful tech with a mic that's verging on antique status?
We spend all this time and effort choosing the best PA, tweaking the angles and making the graphs perfect, and then we grab the mic that's merely good enough..?
No, thanks.

Well, it works.
They're very consistent.
Everyone knows what they "sound" like (whether they think it's good or bad)
Every musician should know how to work a 58
They're pretty cheap, and they can be found anywhere.
They put up with shit that will kill a lot of mics.
and they just work.
Sure, I have "better", but I can always get a good show with a box of 57's and 58's.
Hey, I'm old too. That doesn't make me obsolete.......
Chris.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 14, 2018, 01:20:10 pm
Doesn't that just contribute to the inertia we see in the industry?

I feel like we're making huge progress in a lot of areas - we're getting bigger sounds out of smaller speakers than ever, and look at the power amplifiers and processing available today. Digital desks have made huge leaps in quality and feature sets.
Stuff that wasn't really possible a couple of decades ago is now available in a 1U chassis.

Why are we still feeding all this wonderful tech with a mic that's verging on antique status?
We spend all this time and effort choosing the best PA, tweaking the angles and making the graphs perfect, and then we grab the mic that's merely good enough..?
No, thanks.

Chris

PS - it's entirely possible that the mic in the video merely looks like a '58. Could be anything behind the grille.

And it could be that, unlike Lucas electrical systems in cars or appliances, the SM58 just works?  What about pistonic transducers?  Why don't we just dump them because electrostatic loudspeakers "sound better"?

I have a pile of "new" products that have failed in various ways over their short lives and I have cases full of products that were designed years ago that continue to perform well.  I have some new stuff in cases that spend most of their time unused because the industry veterans pick the classics they know and trust.

Perhaps it's because I've worked with SM58s all my life but for all its alleged shortcomings it's versatile, rugged and reasonably consistent especially for the price.  There are 'better' mics out there, some of them made by Shure, but nobody else has an equal to the 58.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Luke Geis on December 14, 2018, 01:45:43 pm
I don't own any SM58's.......anymore.........because stolen..........not mad though........... :)

Microphones are much like guitars. The design that was pretty much brand new and popular in the 50's and 60's are the industries top sellers today still. Same with guitar amps really. The number one amp company that is required to be in anyone's backline is Fender; who has been making essentially the same amps since he was repairing radio's and building Telecasters. The ubiquity of the SM58 is no different, it is classic, it is simple, it works great and it's affordable.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: LeVan Moxley on December 14, 2018, 03:09:19 pm
Yep, Mick definitely knows how to work that 58.  Here's some effective proximity effect usage...wait...is that redundant, lol?  Man...this sounds great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL-fJbggkWA
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Miguel Dahl on December 14, 2018, 04:11:32 pm
Yep, Mick definitely knows how to work that 58.  Here's some effective proximity effect usage...wait...is that redundant, lol?  Man...this sounds great.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL-fJbggkWA

Wow. It's actually almost hard to believe that that mic on the vid is the one picking up the vocals heard in the video. Mic in face, nice and clear, mic the same distance as NYC - Beijing, nice and clear.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: LeVan Moxley on December 14, 2018, 04:54:24 pm
Wow. It's actually almost hard to believe that that mic on the vid is the one picking up the vocals heard in the video. Mic in face, nice and clear, mic the same distance as NYC - Beijing, nice and clear.

Those were my initial thoughts also.  But judged by the responses on here, it's common place to get these kind of results from a 58.  I've still got a lot to learn.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: brian maddox on December 14, 2018, 05:21:33 pm
Those were my initial thoughts also.  But judged by the responses on here, it's common place to get these kind of results from a 58.  I've still got a lot to learn.

It is not "common place" to get these results with ANY vocal mic used this way in a live environment.  But given the relatively moderate stage volume, the proficiency of this particular singer, and the fact that this was processed on a NLE using any and every tool available makes the end result understandable.

That last point bears repeating.  Processing audio in a Non-linear DAW opens up a level of control and manipulation that's simply not available during a "Live" event.  Think of it this way.  If i put a compressor on a mic in a Live Event, the compressor can't react to the signal until it actually "hears" it.  That's where you get that "pumping" sound under heavy compression.  But in a NLE, the compressor can cheat and look ahead to see what's coming and roll into that compression in a much smoother way than is possible in a live environment. 

I'm sure this sounded great to the live audience as well.  But i doubt it sounded quite This Great.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Mike Caldwell on December 14, 2018, 05:28:19 pm
The problem with videos like this is that people will try to copy that kind of mic technique because it sounded good on the video and have neither the vocal chops or the proper stage set up to attempt it on.
I can almost hear "turn my monitor up, I can't hear myself"
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: LeVan Moxley on December 14, 2018, 06:11:48 pm
In a "concert setting/recording for media distribution" setting like this, don't they usually run two consoles, one for FOH and one for recording?  Obviously having the ability to mix all this post let's it become as good as it can be.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Scott Helmke on December 14, 2018, 06:26:57 pm
In a "concert setting/recording for media distribution" setting like this, don't they usually run two consoles, one for FOH and one for recording?  Obviously having the ability to mix all this post let's it become as good as it can be.

Standard would be splitting all the sources for recording, direct to ProTools. But also the recording engineer will mix (on her own console or maybe just laptop) a "live" stereo recording as a reference/backup in case something goes wrong with the multitrack recording.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Luke Geis on December 14, 2018, 06:40:20 pm
Commonplace, absolutely not. There have been instances where I swear I had CD quality vocal sound from even basic systems, but it was only with certain singers. It truly comes down to the singer's voice and their ability to control the mic. You can get pretty far using tools, but the symbiotic relationship between the singer and the mic are truly where it starts. If it is right at the source, it should be pretty hard to mess it up later.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: brian maddox on December 14, 2018, 07:21:12 pm
Commonplace, absolutely not. There have been instances where I swear I had CD quality vocal sound from even basic systems, but it was only with certain singers. It truly comes down to the singer's voice and their ability to control the mic. You can get pretty far using tools, but the symbiotic relationship between the singer and the mic are truly where it starts. If it is right at the source, it should be pretty hard to mess it up later.

this^^

I tell the story often of mixing the National Christmas Tree Lighting in DC with a variety of talent singing accompanied by the Army Band.  A [still teen-aged] Leann Rhimes walked up to the single Mic [it might have been an SM58, although i think it was probably an SM85] downstage and launched into a song for soundcheck.  I'll never forget that feeling of raising the fader, reaching for the EQ as one does to "fix" someone's voice, and realizing there was literally nothing to fix.  The girl could just flat out SING and i just needed to stay out of the way.  HPF and bring the fader up.  Done!

Real Actual Talent makes us idiot sound guys look REALLY good!  :)
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Mike Caldwell on December 14, 2018, 08:13:39 pm
this^^

I tell the story often of mixing the National Christmas Tree Lighting in DC with a variety of talent singing accompanied by the Army Band.  A [still teen-aged] Leann Rhimes walked up to the single Mic [it might have been an SM58, although i think it was probably an SM85] downstage and launched into a song for soundcheck.  I'll never forget that feeling of raising the fader, reaching for the EQ as one does to "fix" someone's voice, and realizing there was literally nothing to fix.  The girl could just flat out SING and i just needed to stay out of the way.  HPF and bring the fader up.  Done!

Real Actual Talent makes us idiot sound guys look REALLY good!  :)


While not always a Leann Rhimes type of moment we have all had
the multi band festival days and just about the time you begin to wonder what's wrong a polished pro act gets on stage and all you do is push up the faders and make it look easy.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Roland Clarke on December 15, 2018, 09:59:32 am
It is not "common place" to get these results with ANY vocal mic used this way in a live environment.  But given the relatively moderate stage volume, the proficiency of this particular singer, and the fact that this was processed on a NLE using any and every tool available makes the end result understandable.

That last point bears repeating.  Processing audio in a Non-linear DAW opens up a level of control and manipulation that's simply not available during a "Live" event.  Think of it this way.  If i put a compressor on a mic in a Live Event, the compressor can't react to the signal until it actually "hears" it.  That's where you get that "pumping" sound under heavy compression.  But in a NLE, the compressor can cheat and look ahead to see what's coming and roll into that compression in a much smoother way than is possible in a live environment. 

I'm sure this sounded great to the live audience as well.  But i doubt it sounded quite This Great.

Outside of vocal tuning and editing, much of what is available to studio engineers is available live these days.  Avid S6l aims to do exactly that!  Obviously things like smashing a vocal 6:1 on a compressor with 10-15 dB of reduction, live is probably not a good idea.  We, by consequence, have some advantages over studio sound.  Due to power compression and other factors, itís much easier to make a BD slam live and studios have to work much harder to achieve that.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Keith Broughton on December 15, 2018, 10:52:22 am
Quote
the symbiotic relationship between the singer and the mic are truly where it starts
YES!
End of story. :)
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Jon Brunskill on December 15, 2018, 06:08:15 pm
this^^

I tell the story often of mixing the National Christmas Tree Lighting in DC with a variety of talent singing accompanied by the Army Band.  A [still teen-aged] Leann Rhimes walked up to the single Mic [it might have been an SM58, although i think it was probably an SM85] downstage and launched into a song for soundcheck.  I'll never forget that feeling of raising the fader, reaching for the EQ as one does to "fix" someone's voice, and realizing there was literally nothing to fix.  The girl could just flat out SING and i just needed to stay out of the way.  HPF and bring the fader up.  Done!

Real Actual Talent makes us idiot sound guys look REALLY good!  :)

This is so true. I mixed a 20 piece big band last night, along with 7 singers, and for 6 of them I was all over the EQ, tweaking through the show trying to get them to sit right. One singer must have 30+ years under her belt singing jazz and blues professionally, she needed no EQ, no compression, just a wireless 58 and HPF. She took the other singers to school.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Jerry Ziarko on December 16, 2018, 12:20:54 pm
In a "concert setting/recording for media distribution" setting like this, don't they usually run two consoles, one for FOH and one for recording?  Obviously having the ability to mix all this post let's it become as good as it can be.

Just as a photo of a celebrity doesn't make it to print without editing, (Photoshop etc) live concert video footage does not make it to air without remix and mastering. While live to video/audio may have happened decades ago, there is no reason not to take advantage of technological advances to put out a stellar product in the modern era.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Tim Weaver on December 18, 2018, 02:40:50 pm
This is why I don't understand why so many people bag on the '58. It's a great mic! Is it the greatest in every circumstance? Propbably not, BUT it will absolutely work in every circumstance. You can't say that about any other mic out there.

The regular old 58 still has the most natural top end of any live vocal mic in the business. AND it has a nice and wide pickup pattern to let PROs work it like Mick shows us in this vid. It's no wonder it sounds great. The 58 doesn't add any thing weird and Mick is an absolute pro!
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: drew gandy on January 04, 2019, 01:53:10 pm
Gosh Mick Hucknall (sp?) still has an amazing voice after all these years. 

One of the dirty little secrets is the better the artist the easier they are to mix.  It's the shity bands in shity rooms that are a pain in the ass.  You never get all they have in the sound check.  Every db of gain before feedback is a precious commodity and the deck is stacked against you.

Didn't we talk on here years ago about 1000 person soft seat theaters being the preferred venue for our "craft"?  I don't do much band work anymore and I honestly don't miss it much.  It was so rare for me to actually "mix the band".  Most gigs are just damage control and/or politics and logistics.  Hearing damage is one of the biggest reasons I avoid the band gigs now.   I think I still have pretty decent hearing (another audiogram is actually long overdue) and I've decided that there are very few bands who are worth risking it for. 

Anyway, I add to the chorus that some musicians and singers can just light up a mic with pleasantness in a magical way.  Others not so much.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Roland Clarke on January 06, 2019, 02:26:45 pm
Just as a photo of a celebrity doesn't make it to print without editing, (Photoshop etc) live concert video footage does not make it to air without remix and mastering. While live to video/audio may have happened decades ago, there is no reason not to take advantage of technological advances to put out a stellar product in the modern era.

I totally agree with you, but I also find that the more hands off you can be with a 58, the better it usually sounds.  The number of times Iíve seen someone tweak a 58 channel only for it to subtly degrade with the more processing added.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 06, 2019, 03:30:44 pm
And then there's the distinct possibility that the vocal was re-recorded in the studio.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on January 06, 2019, 06:58:12 pm
And then there's the distinct possibility that the vocal was re-recorded in the studio.

It is possible.

I worked with a guy in a local no name band a few years ago (he was no Mick Hucknall ) on their demo recording. On a couple of the songs, I suggested doubling his voice. The re-recorded vocal track was so close to the original, it was hard to tell any difference at all. He could sing the vocal EXACTLY the same way each time - weird.....
So, it is not impossible that this track was a re-recording depending on just how close the overdub vocal track was to the original - and if anyone could do it, Mick could.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 06, 2019, 09:36:04 pm
It is possible.

I worked with a guy in a local no name band a few years ago (he was no Mick Hucknall ) on their demo recording. On a couple of the songs, I suggested doubling his voice. The re-recorded vocal track was so close to the original, it was hard to tell any difference at all. He could sing the vocal EXACTLY the same way each time - weird.....
So, it is not impossible that this track was a re-recording depending on just how close the overdub vocal track was to the original - and if anyone could do it, Mick could.
I think Mick can duplicate his performance with craft and skill

Watch Peter Gabriel's video of the Secret World or Growing up tours - depending on the song it can be pretty obvious that Peter's mics you see in the video are not necessarily what you are hearing in the soundtrack.

I watched the first minute of the video link LeVan posted.  I'd wager it's a studio replacement.

The question is "do we watch a Simply Red w/orchestra documentary" or do we watch a re-presentation of a concert where all parties have a stake in the artistic and commercial outcomes?
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Karel Noon on January 07, 2019, 04:03:58 pm

I watched the first minute of the video link LeVan posted.  I'd wager it's a studio replacement.


With todayís processing options and the fact that we all believe MH can deliver such a performance I would doubt its re recorded.

Time is money, he can sing, ad a plug-in or five and off you go.

And as I said before, I have seen him live, that pretty close to that video, so probably the same Plugins and the same talent working together  ;D
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 07, 2019, 05:56:40 pm
With todayís processing options and the fact that we all believe MH can deliver such a performance I would doubt its re recorded.

Time is money, he can sing, ad a plug-in or five and off you go.

And as I said before, I have seen him live, that pretty close to that video, so probably the same Plugins and the same talent working together  ;D

As Mick pulls off the mic (over 30cm) you don't hear any bleed.  Nothing.  No additional orchestra, no "ambiance".

That's not a matter of plugins, that's a replacement.  This is identical to the Peter Gabriel replacement.  When Mick gets back on top of the mic there is no change in tonality, zero, zip, nada.  While a certain amount of that can be corrected with dynamic EQ, it cannot be eliminated 100%.

Again, I'm not disparaging Mick's talent, quite to the contrary.  I'm only saying that what you hear is not what was recorded in situ.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Luke Geis on January 11, 2019, 09:17:32 pm
There are recording tools that are essentially auto faders and I would will a bet adaptive EQ ( not much further from Multiband dynamics ) that can really make it seem like a re-recording. There is also some really really good noise reduction software out there now that is only just short of miracle status. The iZotope stuff is really scary good in the right hands.
Title: Re: How do you get an SM58 to sound like this? NEW Simply Red Concert Vid
Post by: Jelmer de Jong on January 24, 2019, 02:17:15 pm
As Mick pulls off the mic (over 30cm) you don't hear any bleed.  Nothing.  No additional orchestra, no "ambiance".

That's not a matter of plugins, that's a replacement.  This is identical to the Peter Gabriel replacement.  When Mick gets back on top of the mic there is no change in tonality, zero, zip, nada.  While a certain amount of that can be corrected with dynamic EQ, it cannot be eliminated 100%.

Again, I'm not disparaging Mick's talent, quite to the contrary.  I'm only saying that what you hear is not what was recorded in situ.
Very low stage volume, very low house volume and some clever use of ambience/crowd mics to mask the bleed when he pulls te mic to far away.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR4picpDIVE