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Title: Network cable for audio
Post by: John L Nobile on November 01, 2018, 05:40:13 pm
I'm looking at getting a DL32 on stage to connect to  FOH and monitor X32's. It's an install so I don't need the expensive rugged cable. Been thinking of just rolling my own but came across this on Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-Snagless-Shielded-Ethernet/dp/B00BIOQ9YS?th=1

I like the shielding and it's Cat6a. I can put ethercon ends on it and should be good to go. Only problem I can see is that it's 26 AWG. I'm just not sure the guage matters.


Thoughts?

Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 01, 2018, 06:04:16 pm
I'm looking at getting a DL32 on stage to connect to  FOH and monitor X32's. It's an install so I don't need the expensive rugged cable. Been thinking of just rolling my own but came across this on Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-Snagless-Shielded-Ethernet/dp/B00BIOQ9YS?th=1

I like the shielding and it's Cat6a. I can put ethercon ends on it and should be good to go. Only problem I can see is that it's 26 AWG. I'm just not sure the guage matters.


Thoughts?

Ordinarily I would say that I think you'd be fine, but I think I bought that exact cable this summer and it failed the pass/fail tests on my Byte Brothers Cable Certifier (which really doesn't certify cables but does measure things better than other measuring devices). Amazon took it back, and I used something else.

I bought  this stuff  (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M9AQNKO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1), but the 200' wasn't available at the time and I got the 150'; several of them, and all passed.

It's rugged and stiff but worked.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Scott Helmke on November 01, 2018, 06:27:18 pm
X32/M32 - I believe you need not only shielded, but Ethercon as well to avoid problems. 
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 01, 2018, 06:57:54 pm
X32/M32 - I believe you need not only shielded, but Ethercon as well to avoid problems.

Yes, just as he said.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: John L Nobile on November 01, 2018, 11:12:54 pm
X32/M32 - I believe you need not only shielded, but Ethercon as well to avoid problems.

Isn't Ethercon just the name of the connector? It's a sleeve that goes over a normal RJ45 shielded connector.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Caleb Dueck on November 02, 2018, 12:05:10 am
Isn't Ethercon just the name of the connector? It's a sleeve that goes over a normal RJ45 shielded connector.
Yes.

If it's install - West Penn, ICE, Belden install cable, Cat5e shielded, Ethercon connectors.  A 500' spool of the above doesn't cost much, and Cat5e isn't hard to terminate.  Solid core from tech plate to tech plate (or punch downs), stranded to the devices.  Keep continuity from chassis to chassis.  Especially in cold or dry climates where static electricity builds up.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Corey Scogin on November 02, 2018, 12:09:57 am
Isn't Ethercon just the name of the connector? It's a sleeve that goes over a normal RJ45 shielded connector.

Yes. There are two primary models for this application:
NE8MC for pre-terminated cables
NE8MC-1 for cables to be terminated after the Ethercon boots are installed

The only difference is the boot.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Scott Helmke on November 02, 2018, 10:03:40 am
Isn't Ethercon just the name of the connector? It's a sleeve that goes over a normal RJ45 shielded connector.

Yes.  It also provides a bit of shielding.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Keith Broughton on November 02, 2018, 11:22:32 am
NE8MC for pre-terminated cables


I had no idea these were available!
Thanks :)
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Brian Jojade on November 02, 2018, 11:49:44 am
Only problem I can see is that it's 26 AWG. I'm just not sure the guage matters.


Thoughts?

For signal cable, the smaller gauge shouldn't matter.  Where it does matter is if you are using ethernet and POE connections. Then the small wire can cause you some issues.

If the wire is completely contained and never moves, you can get away with a lot lesser cable and have it work.  One of the big issues I've seen with AES50 is that any movement of conductors inside of the cable can cause it to freak out.  ie, if someone steps on a cable, you'll hear a pop.  As long as your cable will never be abused like that, then you should be ok.

Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 02, 2018, 11:59:28 am
One of the big issues I've seen with AES50 is that any movement of conductors inside of the cable can cause it to freak out.  ie, if someone steps on a cable, you'll hear a pop.

One needs to look at the cross-section of the cable under consideration.

The cables having this problem seem to be the ones with the twisted pairs touching each other with no filler in between.

One of the reasons to get CAT6 or 6a rather than 5e is that having a longitudinal spacer/spline running through the cable is common if not necessary on the former to achieve spec and rare in the latter. The spline should vastly reduce/eliminate the problem you describe.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: John L Nobile on November 02, 2018, 02:10:32 pm
One needs to look at the cross-section of the cable under consideration.

The cables having this problem seem to be the ones with the twisted pairs touching each other with no filler in between.

One of the reasons to get CAT6 or 6a rather than 5e is that having a longitudinal spacer/spline running through the cable is common if not necessary on the former to achieve spec and rare in the latter. The spline should vastly reduce/eliminate the problem you describe.

I've been looking at 5e and 6a. From what I've read Cat 6 is only rated to 55 meters. Cat 6e is not rated and seems to have been superseded by 6a which is rated to the full 100M. My head is spinning looking at all the different cables and shielding types.

My thought is that good shielding is a priority and there is a spec for a braided shield around all the wires with each pair in a foil shield as well.

Here's a Belden link with a description of UTP/STP etc....
https://www.belden.com/blog/digital-building/stp-utp-ftp-cable-more-7-types-when-to-use-them

Also, here's my 1st choice for Cat5e cable - ToughCableCarrier from Ubiquiti. The x-section shows the shielding

https://www.ubnt.com/accessories/toughcable/

Now to find a good Cat 6a cable
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Jordan Wolf on November 02, 2018, 03:51:46 pm
Now to find a good Cat 6a cable
TMB recently released a CAT6a cable (https://tmb.com/proplex-ethernet/) that is certified to 10Gbps at 100m.

Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on November 02, 2018, 05:41:12 pm
https://linkitaly.com/product/cat7-polyurethane-ethernet-cable/

"Our CAT7 Polyurethane Ethernet Cable undergoes EIA/TIA 568B.2 and ISO/IEC 11801 certification tests in which the complete range of relevant frequencies are analyzed. The test ensures that each value, at every frequency up to 1500 MHz, is compliant with the standard at the specified length. The Eurocable CAT7 Polyurethane Ethernet Cable is the first cable for Dante that was tested successfully to 150 m and is guaranteed to 120M for mobile applications."
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: John L Nobile on November 02, 2018, 06:17:55 pm
https://linkitaly.com/product/cat7-polyurethane-ethernet-cable/

"Our CAT7 Polyurethane Ethernet Cable undergoes EIA/TIA 568B.2 and ISO/IEC 11801 certification tests in which the complete range of relevant frequencies are analyzed. The test ensures that each value, at every frequency up to 1500 MHz, is compliant with the standard at the specified length. The Eurocable CAT7 Polyurethane Ethernet Cable is the first cable for Dante that was tested successfully to 150 m and is guaranteed to 120M for mobile applications."

More cable? My heads gonna explode.

I should be getting the DL32 next week so I better decide what cable to buy. I'd like to use it on a gig next Fri and Sat.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on November 02, 2018, 06:44:39 pm
More cable? My heads gonna explode.

I should be getting the DL32 next week so I better decide what cable to buy. I'd like to use it on a gig next Fri and Sat.

FWIW. Iíve used the ordinary Eurocable Cat6 STP on a standard 75m cable reel with all my cat-based desks, no issues. (Yamaha, Soundcraft, Midas Pro and M32).
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 02, 2018, 09:02:41 pm

Also, here's my 1st choice for Cat5e cable - ToughCableCarrier from Ubiquiti. The x-section shows the shielding

https://www.ubnt.com/accessories/toughcable/


That looks pretty good in both versions, with the Carrier one looking better because of the spline. From what i can tell, though, the individual pairs for both seem encapsulated in a jacket, so that might work fine on its own to reduce crosstalk/induction interference that the spline further reduces.

Does it come terminated in specific lengths or only unterminated? I have a problem with terminating sufficiently well every time so I don't. Looking closer at the data sheet it looks like only unterminated BUT the correct connectors for the cable are available from them. That would be a must-buy, as the problems are often that cables need a specific size of connector and vice versa.

The blurb doesn't say anything about the connector having an insert, which seems important for reliable connections, so be wary. (If your devices only need CAT5e you may be fine doing your own terminations, but if they inherently need CAT6a be very cautious and aware of what you are doing.)
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Nathan Riddle on November 02, 2018, 09:24:51 pm
The blurb doesn't say anything about the connector having an insert, which seems important for reliable connections, so be wary. (If your devices only need CAT5e you may be fine doing your own terminations, but if they inherently need CAT6a be very cautious and aware of what you are doing.)

Agreed, liberty av has the best video on terminating Cat6A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9U84ax50PE0
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Nick Falbo on November 02, 2018, 09:46:40 pm
I'm looking at getting a DL32 on stage to connect to  FOH and monitor X32's. It's an install so I don't need the expensive rugged cable. Been thinking of just rolling my own but came across this on Amazon

https://www.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-Snagless-Shielded-Ethernet/dp/B00BIOQ9YS?th=1

I like the shielding and it's Cat6a. I can put ethercon ends on it and should be good to go. Only problem I can see is that it's 26 AWG. I'm just not sure the guage matters.


Thoughts?



The best thing to do is use the cable specs from Behringer/Midas.

Direct from Behringer/Midas
In order to ensure trouble-free operation when connecting X32 consoles to other X32 mixers or to S16 stage boxes, the following specifications should be met when choosing your cables:

Shielded Cat-5e cables only
Ethercon terminated cable ends
Maximum cable length 100 meters (300 feet)

The one thing that is not noted in this is that the ethercon shells must have continuity through them, to test this take a multimeter put one probe on one ethercon shell and the other probe on the other while the multimeter is set to continuity test. It should either beep or give you an onscreen message saying that there is continuity. This is to show that there is a grounded connection between the shells. If you don't follow these rules then you run the risk of damaging your AES50 ports on your gear, and Music Tribe will NOT offer warranty support on equipment using non spec cables. Many people have found this out the hard way.

You can add ethercon connectors to the cable you found on amazon but it is not a spec cable. The spec calls for Cat5e not Cat6, this is due to the difference in twists of the cable which can lead to sync errors because Cat6 has a higher twist meaning that in 1 foot of Cat6 cable there is more wire length internally vs Cat5e which has less twist to it. The devices were made to work with Cat5e and were not designed for Cat6 variants. The good news is Cat5e is cheaper.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 03, 2018, 11:48:54 am
The spec calls for Cat5e not Cat6, this is due to the difference in twists of the cable which can lead to sync errors because Cat6 has a higher twist meaning that in 1 foot of Cat6 cable there is more wire length internally vs Cat5e which has less twist to it. The devices were made to work with Cat5e and were not designed for Cat6 variants.

Source this paragraph's info, please.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: John L Nobile on November 03, 2018, 12:05:41 pm

The best thing to do is use the cable specs from Behringer/Midas.

Direct from Behringer/Midas
In order to ensure trouble-free operation when connecting X32 consoles to other X32 mixers or to S16 stage boxes, the following specifications should be met when choosing your cables:

Shielded Cat-5e cables only
Ethercon terminated cable ends
Maximum cable length 100 meters (300 feet)

The one thing that is not noted in this is that the ethercon shells must have continuity through them, to test this take a multimeter put one probe on one ethercon shell and the other probe on the other while the multimeter is set to continuity test. It should either beep or give you an onscreen message saying that there is continuity. This is to show that there is a grounded connection between the shells. If you don't follow these rules then you run the risk of damaging your AES50 ports on your gear, and Music Tribe will NOT offer warranty support on equipment using non spec cables. Many people have found this out the hard way.

You can add ethercon connectors to the cable you found on amazon but it is not a spec cable. The spec calls for Cat5e not Cat6, this is due to the difference in twists of the cable which can lead to sync errors because Cat6 has a higher twist meaning that in 1 foot of Cat6 cable there is more wire length internally vs Cat5e which has less twist to it. The devices were made to work with Cat5e and were not designed for Cat6 variants. The good news is Cat5e is cheaper.

Good info. I thought I was overthinking this. I'm going to order the Ubiquiti ToughCable Carrier and roll my own cables. I've made quite a few network cables and they're all still working. And I have a good crimper and testers.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Art Nadelman on November 03, 2018, 12:28:06 pm
Here's a great deal on eBay for an 80 meter (250 ft) cable.  I purchased one for myself and sent customers to him as well.  It's the same cable and spool sold by Mackie, Allen & Heath and no doubt, others for $900.  It's $200 here.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tour-Grade-80-Meter-250-Feet-Cat5e-Reel-w-Neutrik-Locking-EtherCON-Connectors/183511318851?epid=22019132754&hash=item2aba208143:g:ns8AAOSwJjZa8eGo:rk:2:pf:0
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Nick Falbo on November 04, 2018, 07:29:23 pm
Good info. I thought I was overthinking this. I'm going to order the Ubiquiti ToughCable Carrier and roll my own cables. I've made quite a few network cables and they're all still working. And I have a good crimper and testers.

The Ubiquiti ToughCable TC-Pro is good if you are using it for an install, if you are going to lay a cable down on the ground i recommend the Ubiquiti ToughCalbe TC-Carrier due the the fact that it has a braided shield as well as foil shield to toughen the cable and it has the crosstalk divider in it. It is a bit more rigid and harder to roll but it is stronger and will help protect your cable from people stepping on it, etc. Just make sure you terminate them with either metal RJ45 connectors made for shielded cat5e cable..

Here is a link the the ethercon shell that works with pre-assembled cables or homemade cables  https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/836269-REG/neutrik_ne8mc_b_rj_5_cable_connector.html

Make sure you cut the locking tab off the RJ45 connector.

Hope this all helps
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Geert Friedhof on November 04, 2018, 09:05:48 pm
Maybe it's worth mentioning that install cat cables are solid core, and flexible entertainment industry cable is stranded.

Also worth mentining is that the ethercon shells are only compatible with a small amount of Hirose connectors. You need a special tool to terminate those.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Russell Ault on November 05, 2018, 12:53:25 am
Maybe it's worth mentioning that install cat cables are solid core, and flexible entertainment industry cable is stranded.

Also worth mentining is that the ethercon shells are only compatible with a small amount of Hirose connectors. You need a special tool to terminate those.

Rapco's DuraCAT (for example) is available in both a solid and stranded form factor. Signal attenuation in stranded Ethernet cable is typically higher than solid, and the 100m maximum spec for Ethernet assumes that 90% of that distance will be over solid cable. Running the full 100m of stranded cable (especially at Cat5e spec) is likely to not be as reliable as you'd like it to be.

For whatever reason Neutrik hasn't posted their EtherCON RJ45 compatibility PDF to their redesigned website, but that document is still available here (http://www.neutrik.us/zoolu-website/media/download/144/Assembly+Instruction+-+etherCON+Cable+Connector+NE8MC-1). The good news is that, while many of those connectors require proprietary crimp tools (at something like $600 a pop), Canford in the UK makes two listed connectors that both require only a standard crimper (and there maybe others).

-Russ
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 09, 2018, 03:01:09 pm
Rapco's DuraCAT (for example) is available in both a solid and stranded form factor. Signal attenuation in stranded Ethernet cable is typically higher than solid, and the 100m maximum spec for Ethernet assumes that 90% of that distance will be over solid cable. Running the full 100m of stranded cable (especially at Cat5e spec) is likely to not be as reliable as you'd like it to be.

Could you please elaborate on this statement?

Patch cables, which are assumed to be used often and twisted and bent, are supposed to be stranded to withstand that usage. As such, they are subjected to a separate testing standard ("Patch" vs. "Solid" on my tester, meaning Stranded -used for Patch Cords-, or Solid Cable -used for networks and inside a wall therefore not twisted/bent).

The testing standards are more rigorous for the Patch/Stranded cables than for Solid/Network and a cable that will pass the Solid test might not pass the Patch test.

In our PA usage, and especially portable PA, we are using Ethernet cables almost exclusively as Network cables, meaning a direct connection from console to stage box. Even though we might be using stranded cable for that purpose, we should be measuring using the Network/Solid standard.

Without knowing where you got that information, my guess is that it was based on those standards.

And remember that the fact that stranded may attenuate signal more than solid is irrelevant if the cable passes the Certification test (or an approximation of that test for those of us not able to afford USD$10,000+ testers). That test is PASS/FAIL, and although nuances are interesting it's a binary test.

So if a stranded cable that is 100m long passes the test and continues to pass the test, the rest is largely irrelevant, as long as the gear we use conforms with the criteria in the test.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Dave Stevens on November 10, 2018, 11:11:01 pm
We use TMB PolyPro in harsh environments like running through the tray with LX and Auto wire or anything that needs an Ethercon.   The squints use it for data and DMX and Automation uses it for data.  There's easily a few miles of it in the building.  It's what we use for Dante when we have to deploy onto deck or a traffic area.

For traditional install routes, back to the offices, green room, dressing rooms, lobby, etc we've been using https://www.amazon.com/1000ft-Cat5e-Solid-Network-Unshielded/dp/B073HKNP9N/ref=sr_1_19?ie=UTF8&qid=1541906096&sr=8-19&keywords=bulk+cat5e+cable .  It's a bit stiff for portable apps but it's labeled as UL listed and performs as it should.  We've got Fluke cable cert tools but don't really use them unless there is an issue.

For example we used at least 5 boxes last dark to replace our point to point comm with Omega HD, PL comm to Helixnet, BTR packs to Free Speak and 60 plus camera network to all IP cams for our HD change over.  Some of the Helixnet stations are over 300' but we're using Trendnet PoE injectors for them and they perform as expected even over the limit.  For the Dante apps it's rare I get more than 50'-100' on each side before it goes into the building audio fiber system.  We're up to our asses in control ethernet as well.  Nomadlink, LCS, HiQnet and some dinosaur Ilon based RMS.

Here's the PoE box...

http://www.trendnet.com/products/proddetail?prod=175_TPE-115Gi
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Andrew Broughton on November 11, 2018, 08:41:40 pm
Anyone used the Ethernet to 4 XLR breakout boxes? Seems that the cable needs to be shielded for these to work properly, but is it individual pair shields, or overall shield? I assume also that the shields would be tied together on all 4 lines?
How well does this work for (unbalanced) clear-com? Dave Rat seems to think it works fine, but I wouldn't mind hearing other's experience...

I'm in the market for a 4-channel ethernet snake. The ones I've seen before were HUGE! way bigger than 4 individual CAT5/6 cables.
Anyone found one that's reasonably flexible, smaller diameter, shielded?
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Caleb Dueck on November 12, 2018, 12:24:15 am


I'm in the market for a 4-channel ethernet snake. The ones I've seen before were HUGE! way bigger than 4 individual CAT5/6 cables.
Anyone found one that's reasonably flexible, smaller diameter, shielded?

Flexible, small diameter - and shielded don't go together.  I found two models but discovered most Cat snakes aren't shielded.  I don't remember right off what we ended up using, PM me and I'll dig it up.  It may have been multiple single cables, as it was multiple power, Cat6, and SDI. 

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on November 12, 2018, 02:31:24 am
Radial Catapult are shielded if you use a shielded network cable.
You get a common shield for all four lines, but it seems to work ok.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Russell Ault on November 12, 2018, 04:43:35 am
Anyone used the Ethernet to 4 XLR breakout boxes? Seems that the cable needs to be shielded for these to work properly, but is it individual pair shields, or overall shield? I assume also that the shields would be tied together on all 4 lines?
How well does this work for (unbalanced) clear-com? Dave Rat seems to think it works fine, but I wouldn't mind hearing other's experience...

At least over short distances I've run them with UTP without any issues (although obviously phantom doesn't work without a shield). Even at longer distances the common mode rejection of twisted pair should obviate most of the need for shielding, but that does rely on how well balanced your inputs and outputs are. I definitely tend to think of them as shield-optional, especially for line-level signals. Heck, I've even run Ethernet and analogue audio down the same Cat5e run (two pairs of each), and not even over a particularly high-quality cable, without any noticeable noise or packet loss. Cat5e is pretty good stuff...

-Russ
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Scott Helmke on November 12, 2018, 08:40:38 am
Anyone used the Ethernet to 4 XLR breakout boxes? Seems that the cable needs to be shielded for these to work properly, but is it individual pair shields, or overall shield? I assume also that the shields would be tied together on all 4 lines?
How well does this work for (unbalanced) clear-com? Dave Rat seems to think it works fine, but I wouldn't mind hearing other's experience...

We do it now and then, using UTP in a 4-channel ethernet snake. No big issues. I built a couple party-line to Ethercon boxes, uses two of the pairs to make the ground connection. No real problems running Clear-Com over a 300' snake, though you have to be careful not to hang more than a couple beltpacks on the far side (skinny wire).

Quote
I'm in the market for a 4-channel ethernet snake. The ones I've seen before were HUGE! way bigger than 4 individual CAT5/6 cables.

Yeah, it's a bit large when you buy a 4-banger in that form. On the upside it'll be a lot lighter than equivalent copper pairs, and the filler and padding does a good job protecting the wire. We've got several that get rented on a semi-regular basis (over several years) and I think maybe once has a line gone bad.

BTW, we changed most of our Ethercon 4-channel snakes to have the 4th line be regular RJ45 ends ("ProShell" end from TMB) instead of Ethercon. Drastically reduces having to replace the parts that get lost when somebody removes the Ethercon so they can connect their laptop to a speaker processor over the snake.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Thomas Dameron on November 13, 2018, 01:32:41 pm
Scott,

That's a good idea about putting an rj45 on the 4th channel.

How have you had success with com?  I spec'ed a system using the 3ch TMB wiring to ensure that the grounds were wired.  I've had very mixed results with com.  Using a mix of 1ch clear-com, 2ch CC with a TW-1 and 2ch RTS, I've probably only had a 50% rate of it working at all and only 25% success rate of it working without excessive noise. 

I'm using Rapco Ether-Shield quad, so it is shielded but I didn't want to rely on that foil shield to carry signal, so I went with the 3ch wiring where the grounds are shared between channels but on actual conductors.  I'm not running anything other than com over the adapters.

Direct link to the pdf wasn't attaching correctly.  Follow thing link then go to cut sheets for the 3ch wiring.
https://tmb.com/sneak-snake/ (https://tmb.com/sneak-snake/)

thomas d.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Andrew Broughton on November 15, 2018, 02:20:45 pm
Thanks, everyone!

What are your thoughts on the Elite core connectors?
https://elitecoreaudio.com/store/elite-core-cs45-converta-shell-connector.html
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Gary Weller on November 15, 2018, 11:00:43 pm
Thanks, everyone!

What are your thoughts on the Elite core connectors?
https://elitecoreaudio.com/store/elite-core-cs45-converta-shell-connector.html

I don't see how they would have continuity. Looks to have a rubber ring where it detaches. Unless the inner part makes a strong connection. I don't think I'd want them if I was depending on a fully shielded connection shell to shell.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 16, 2018, 06:05:53 am
Thanks, everyone!

What are your thoughts on the Elite core connectors?
https://elitecoreaudio.com/store/elite-core-cs45-converta-shell-connector.html

Use an Ethercon barrel and a short RJ45 jumper.  There is no ground continuity on the Converta-Shell.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Andrew Broughton on November 17, 2018, 02:19:28 am
Great stuff, guys!
That's why I love this forum. Real info from people actually using the stuff.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Dan Richardson on November 17, 2018, 10:49:36 am
There is no ground continuity on the Converta-Shell.
Absolutely true. It's mated to a non-conductive plastic shell. But does there need to be, if you have a shielded RJ45 inside it?

The problem I have with my Converta-Shells is that the removable sleeve is held in place by friction against the rubber o-ring, and that's only barely adequate. When the o-ring inevitably cracks or just comes off, the sleeve is loose and can fall right off. The concept is very handy, though, so I found beefier o-rings.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 17, 2018, 12:09:31 pm
Absolutely true. It's mated to a non-conductive plastic shell. But does there need to be, if you have a shielded RJ45 inside it?


"It depends."

If you're using this for M32/X32 then the answer is absolutely YES, you do need end-to-end DC continuity between Ethercon shells.

For other devices?  I can't say for certain... but it's better to have and not need than to need and not have.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Dan Richardson on November 19, 2018, 12:56:39 pm
If you're using this for M32/X32 then the answer is absolutely YES, you do need end-to-end DC continuity between Ethercon shells.

Really? Behringer didn't connect the ground pin, or didn't use grounding RJ45 jacks? Huh.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 19, 2018, 01:38:21 pm
Really? Behringer didn't connect the ground pin, or didn't use grounding RJ45 jacks? Huh.

You must be new here.  This has been documented extensively.  Whatever Behringer did with the AES50 ports on those models requires ground continuity between Ethercon shells in addition to shielded RJ45.  No other Midas or K-T products seem to have this absolute need.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Dan Mortensen on November 20, 2018, 09:43:27 am
No other Midas or K-T products seem to have this absolute need.

This isn't quite true. Zapping a Midas Pro 3 (at least) with either UTP or without Ethercons gives the same signal interruption as an X32 gets, but not quite as easily, meaning it takes a few more zaps to get the undesired effect. For perhaps that reason, there have been minimal to no reported complaints about it with Midas.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Andrew Broughton on November 20, 2018, 01:10:30 pm
Direct from Behringer/Midas
In order to ensure trouble-free operation when connecting X32 consoles to other X32 mixers or to S16 stage boxes, the following specifications should be met when choosing your cables:

Shielded Cat-5e cables only
Ethercon terminated cable ends
Maximum cable length 100 meters (300 feet )

Link?
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Nick Falbo on November 23, 2018, 09:52:36 pm
Link?

https://behringerwiki.musictribe.com/index.php?title=X32_RACK%3A_AES50_cabling_requirements
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Nick Falbo on November 23, 2018, 10:13:48 pm
Source this paragraph's info, please.

Direct from the Music Tribe wiki https://behringerwiki.musictribe.com/index.php?title=X32_RACK%3A_AES50_cabling_requirements

Also here is some information on the differneces between cat5e and cat6+
https://www.multicominc.com/training/technical-resources/cat5-vs-cat6-cable/
https://customcable.ca/cat5-vs-cat6/
Direct quote "While Cat5e cable features 1.5-2 twists per cm, Cat6 cables are more tightly wound and feature 2 or more twists per cm. (The amount of twists per cm varies upon each cable manufacturer)."
https://planetechusa.com/blog/ethernet-different-ethernet-categories-cat3-vs-cat5e-vs-cat6-vs-cat6a-vs-cat7-vs-cat8/

Some cat6 cables with a lower twist rate (2 twists per cm) should work fine, but others with a higher twist rate will not. This is not a problem in ethernet networks because of the way ethernet works, but AES50 only uses the physical layer (OSI-layer 1) which is the connections, but everything else is different, so it can not be held to the same standards that ethernet based networking (hence why you can't use ethernet switches and other network gear on an AES50 network) is which is where most people make their mistakes.

http://www.hedd.audio/en/aes50-open-audio-ethernet-protocol/

AES50 is frame based and not packet based as ethernet is which is why you can not expect the same outcome using basic networking ideology
http://www.aes-media.org/sections/uk/Conf2011/Presentation_PDFs/07%20-%20Al%20Walker%20-%20Applications%20in%20Live%20Convert%20Sound.pdf

Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Andrew Broughton on November 24, 2018, 12:36:42 pm
https://behringerwiki.musictribe.com/index.php?title=X32_RACK%3A_AES50_cabling_requirements
Is the WIKI written by Music Group/Tribe/Gang?
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Nick Falbo on November 28, 2018, 11:41:26 pm
Is the WIKI written by Music Group/Tribe/Gang?

Yes, it is their part of their official site.

You can get to it through https://www.musictribe.com/brand/c/Behringer/downloads
Select mixers in category, digital in sub category, X32 in product, documentation in type, then wiki in sub type and it brings up that wiki. On the left hand side you can select the product and find the AES50 cable requirements. I am not sure why they don't make it easier to find out this information. It is also listed in the X32 manual under AES50 Requirements. It is a bit hard to find and some people have had problems with ESD (electro static discahrge) from not using cables that are up to spec. Many people have also fried the AES50 ports by using non spec cables or cables without EtherCon ends due to ESD. The problem is behringer/midas cut corners to bring us the console in the price range it is. The midas pro series does not have these same issues but they are at a much higher price point so in this case you really do get what you pay for.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Caleb Dueck on November 29, 2018, 12:03:20 am
I wouldn't call the Pro series drama-free when it comes to cables.  That's one of their weaknesses, the AES50 protocol, and how it's implemented in the Pro series. 

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Luke Geis on November 29, 2018, 12:33:49 am
I have been using the GLS Audio Ethercon cables with 0 issues. It is a cat6 and somewhat tactical. It is made with solid core wires, has the twisted pair separator in it, a rugged jacket, is grounded and has removable ends so you can connect it to non-ethercon devices. The price is good too. I wouldn't say it is tour grade, but it is certainly more than good enough for your typical GS, local festivals and corporate needs. I am perhaps spoiled, but I am the only guy in my area with this type of cable and others that have used it are impressed. Most everyone else around me is just using bulk shielded cat5e that they terminate and it is always bright blue or white and you can't lay it flat and straight to save your life. This cables can be laid flat and straight, it just doesn't do tight bends very well.

https://www.glsaudio.com/GLS-Audio-150-Feet-etherCON-Compatible-RJ45-CAT6-G-Shell-G45-Cable_p_1894.html
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Dan Richardson on November 29, 2018, 09:22:13 am
I have been using the GLS Audio Ethercon cables with 0 issues.

With what mixer? I use them all day with my A&H mixers, but that's the Converta-Shell connector referenced several points above as a no-go with the o.p.'s Behringer gear.

As for 0 issues, I had one fail a few months in. Bad crimp in a connector. Replace the RJ45 and all good again.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Luke Geis on November 29, 2018, 02:37:46 pm
I have been using mine with an X32R and an M32R with a DL32 stage box. One year in and not one hiccup.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: David Winners on November 30, 2018, 06:46:31 am
I'm surprised that Rat Sound SuperCAT isn't mentioned here. It is designed specifically to meet networking requirements as well as audio.

http://www.ratsoundsales.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=Soundtools-Supercatlite (http://www.ratsoundsales.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=Soundtools-Supercatlite)

A variety of adapters and break out boxes are available.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Andrew Broughton on November 30, 2018, 12:16:47 pm
I'm surprised that Rat Sound SuperCAT isn't mentioned here.
Is it CAT6a shielded?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Gary Weller on November 30, 2018, 02:00:24 pm
I have been using the GLS Audio Ethercon cables with 0 issues. It is a cat6 and somewhat tactical. It is made with solid core wires, has the twisted pair separator in it, a rugged jacket, is grounded and has removable ends so you can connect it to non-ethercon devices. The price is good too. I wouldn't say it is tour grade, but it is certainly more than good enough for your typical GS, local festivals and corporate needs. I am perhaps spoiled, but I am the only guy in my area with this type of cable and others that have used it are impressed. Most everyone else around me is just using bulk shielded cat5e that they terminate and it is always bright blue or white and you can't lay it flat and straight to save your life. This cables can be laid flat and straight, it just doesn't do tight bends very well.

https://www.glsaudio.com/GLS-Audio-150-Feet-etherCON-Compatible-RJ45-CAT6-G-Shell-G45-Cable_p_1894.html
If yours is grounded, it's the first one I've seen. Have you actually checked it with a meter? I ordered one and when it arrived, I checked and it didn't have continuity between the metal on the RJ-45's. I sent it back. I checked a friends cable too and it also wasn't.
From your link in the description: "Drain wire (ground) lifted at one end to prevent unwanted noise and hum."
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Gary Weller on November 30, 2018, 02:04:58 pm
Is it CAT6a shielded?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
From their site:"The SuperCAT Sound is a premium shielded (U/FTP) CAT5e cable. Its specifications exceed standard CAT5e, CAT 6, and CAT 7. Comprised of 12 conductor cable with four twisted pairs each having an individual drain wire. "
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Andrew Broughton on November 30, 2018, 02:37:03 pm
From their site:"The SuperCAT Sound is a premium shielded (U/FTP) CAT5e cable. Its specifications exceed standard CAT5e, CAT 6, and CAT 7. Comprised of 12 conductor cable with four twisted pairs each having an individual drain wire. "
So no, then?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Gary Weller on November 30, 2018, 03:32:10 pm
So no, then?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
No, it's CAT5E.
http://www.ratsoundsales.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=soundtools-supercatsound
Link to product with video description by Dave Rat.

Here's a link to a CAT6A shielded cable with ethercons but small gauge 26awg if you're in the US.

https://nelsonaudio.com/store/items/nelson-audio-&-light-100ft-phantomcat-cable
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Nick Falbo on November 30, 2018, 11:56:56 pm
Personally this is what I use with the X32 and M32. It is the spec cable that Behringer sells for the X32. It is very rugged, has dual shielding consisting of a foil shield and an additional metal braid shield to help with EMI and ESD protection as well as add structural integrity to the cable. It also has dual jacket layers to help protect the cables. It is Super strong, comes terminated with EtherCON shells that have continuity at the shell which is required for the X32/M32. You can use 2 of these cables with a  Neutrik NE8FF if you need more than 50m (164ft).  The best part is, it comes with the cable reel. They are not cheap though, but you really do get what you pay for with this cable.

http://www.musictribe.com/Categories/Klarkteknik/Mixers/Accessories/NCAT5E-50M/p/P0AUK

Here is the shopping link to the cable
https://www.fullcompass.com/prod/273717-klark-teknik-ncat5e-50m-50m-reel-of-cat5e-network-cable?gclid=Cj0KCQiA3IPgBRCAARIsABb-iGI9wAJMJ_5E9OL42W5hGVgcXdPgAzd4zT64noBYbU9UPw5dJ45Yc5AaAlolEALw_wcB
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Dan Mortensen on January 05, 2019, 04:46:34 pm

Several references


Thanks for doing the work to back up your comments. My apologies for taking so long to reply.

First, note that most or all the sources you quote are old, either from before the X32 was introduced or slightly after. There has been a lot discovered since then, and the price and availability of CAT6a (for example) have respectively plummeted and soared. So using higher grade CAT cable is not the burden it was at that time.

Second, I have not been able to find any documentation that using a higher resolution cable diminishes performance of lower resolution signals, although you say:


Some cat6 cables with a lower twist rate (2 twists per cm) should work fine, but others with a higher twist rate will not. This is not a problem in ethernet networks because of the way ethernet works, but AES50 only uses the physical layer (OSI-layer 1) which is the connections, but everything else is different, so it can not be held to the same standards that ethernet based networking (hence why you can't use ethernet switches and other network gear on an AES50 network) is which is where most people make their mistakes.

but I couldn't find a source for the higher-twist cable not working for AES50 in any of the documentation you provided. Or anywhere else.

The fact that Ethernet switches do not work for AES50 is a red herring, since AES50 and Ethernet are different protocols. You CAN extend AES50 using AES50 extenders but there does not seem to be a hub/switch equivalent.

Lastly, AES50 is a Standard agreed upon by manufacturers, scientists, and other interested parties, and the resulting equipment is built to conform to the specs in the Standard document.

The entirety of the Standards document (AES50-2011) that relates to the cable is:

"4 Physical Interface 4.1 Physical medium

"HRMAI uses a four-pair twisted pair data cable. The minimum specification shall be Category 5 as defined by TIA/EIA-568-B.2, although the use of more stringently-specified cable such as Category 6 is recommended.

"The use of screened (shielded) twisted pair (STP) cable is recommended."

The end.

So when that document was written only CAT5 was commonly available (not CAT5e), so although equipment built to the standard would perform adequately, the authors and signatories agreed that "more stringently-specified cable...is recommended". (I skipped over CAT6 because we now know that it has limitations that CAT6a doesn't have.)

Please tell the old wives to stop telling their tales.

*I must point out that I am not an IT professional and have not been trained on this in any way, other than Hard Knocks U plus keeping an open ear for new info to explain these devices that I have and use.

**Thanks to my Internet buddy Robert for getting me to look at the Standards document.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Dan Mortensen on January 05, 2019, 04:50:57 pm
You can use 2 of these cables with a  Neutrik NE8FF if you need more than 50m (164ft). 

http://www.musictribe.com/Categories/Klarkteknik/Mixers/Accessories/NCAT5E-50M/p/P0AUK

If you connect two of these together, it's true that you will have exactly 100 meters of cable but the presence of the coupler should cause it to fail the certification tester. If it does actually work, you will still be on the ragged edge of performance as well as having a failure point in the middle.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Robert Lofgren on January 05, 2019, 05:01:10 pm
Iím blushing already  8)

**Thanks to my Internet buddy Robert for getting me to look at the Standards document.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Hunk Huang on July 07, 2019, 10:46:06 pm
I don't see how they would have continuity. Looks to have a rubber ring where it detaches. Unless the inner part makes a strong connection. I don't think I'd want them if I was depending on a fully shielded connection shell to shell.
(https://scontent.fkhh1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/66345349_2590186384326394_4456856613524865024_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_oc=AQma_23kiNJkRV6-PunwZZ9SxPR7BwM3jnJ7n_OA1od8rld0oNGogE-oVeMVwHob9hY&_nc_ht=scontent.fkhh1-2.fna&oh=2e2a3eaac42928cb5fee398b41644c61&oe=5DC431D1)
This grounding point is not connected to any housing
He caused the grounding area to be insufficient
Insufficient compatibility with general STP RJ45
Title: Posting Rules
Post by: Mac Kerr on July 07, 2019, 10:50:08 pm
As an RJ45 connector, it should have enough grounding area itself.
Unfortunately, this is not

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
admin
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Hunk Huang on July 07, 2019, 10:56:28 pm
Thanks for doing the work to back up your comments. My apologies for taking so long to reply.

First, note that most or all the sources you quote are old, either from before the X32 was introduced or slightly after. There has been a lot discovered since then, and the price and availability of CAT6a (for example) have respectively plummeted and soared. So using higher grade CAT cable is not the burden it was at that time.

Second, I have not been able to find any documentation that using a higher resolution cable diminishes performance of lower resolution signals, although you say:

but I couldn't find a source for the higher-twist cable not working for AES50 in any of the documentation you provided. Or anywhere else.

The fact that Ethernet switches do not work for AES50 is a red herring, since AES50 and Ethernet are different protocols. You CAN extend AES50 using AES50 extenders but there does not seem to be a hub/switch equivalent.

Lastly, AES50 is a Standard agreed upon by manufacturers, scientists, and other interested parties, and the resulting equipment is built to conform to the specs in the Standard document.

The entirety of the Standards document (AES50-2011) that relates to the cable is:

"4 Physical Interface 4.1 Physical medium

"HRMAI uses a four-pair twisted pair data cable. The minimum specification shall be Category 5 as defined by TIA/EIA-568-B.2, although the use of more stringently-specified cable such as Category 6 is recommended.

"The use of screened (shielded) twisted pair (STP) cable is recommended."

The end.

So when that document was written only CAT5 was commonly available (not CAT5e), so although equipment built to the standard would perform adequately, the authors and signatories agreed that "more stringently-specified cable...is recommended". (I skipped over CAT6 because we now know that it has limitations that CAT6a doesn't have.)

Please tell the old wives to stop telling their tales.

*I must point out that I am not an IT professional and have not been trained on this in any way, other than Hard Knocks U plus keeping an open ear for new info to explain these devices that I have and use.

**Thanks to my Internet buddy Robert for getting me to look at the Standards document.
Please also note that aes50 is a non-standard protocol.
Does he fully consider the SKEW DELAY @ PAIR-PAIR problem?
Can you allow the AUDIO DATA and SYNC to be DELAY 55ns?
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Erik Jerde on July 08, 2019, 01:08:20 am
Please also note that aes50 is a non-standard protocol.
Does he fully consider the SKEW DELAY @ PAIR-PAIR problem?
Can you allow the AUDIO DATA and SYNC to be DELAY 55ns?

How do you expect to be taken seriously when you state that an open standard protocol is non-standard?
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Hunk Huang on July 08, 2019, 03:42:34 am
How do you expect to be taken seriously when you state that an open standard protocol is non-standard?
Aes50 is the AES standard. I admit this.
But he is absolutely not compatible with TIA-568
TIA-568 allows 100M 50ns skew delay
This is not synchronized for audio data and sync.

https://www.flukenetworks.com/knowledge-base/dtx-cableanalyzer/delay-skew (https://www.flukenetworks.com/knowledge-base/dtx-cableanalyzer/delay-skew)
(http://nwzimg.wezhan.hk/contents/sitefiles3600/18004501/images/227979.jpg)
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Luke Geis on July 11, 2019, 01:24:49 am
I am admittedly late to my response on whether the GLS Audio Snake is grounded at both ends. It is not. The one I got was a Cat6A though, so perhaps that made a difference? In either case, I have NEVER had an issue with it. I have since bonded the other end to ground so there is now continuity at both ends for the drain wire. I also picked up another cable from Elite Core that is a Cat5E and it is bonded on both ends to the drain wire. Again no issues with it.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Rob Spence on July 11, 2019, 08:08:43 am
FWIW I know in the past there have been some issues with the X32 that have been discussed on various forums - earthing, shielded, non shielded cables etc. especially with the early X32ís.

A friend of mine has had issue with his X32 using cables that should have been perfectly fine. Not sure if he ever got to the bottom of it.  I suspect there may have been issues that we havenít been told about in some of the Behringer production runs- donít know. I donít think itís an issue with the cables or AES50.   What worked on my Pro2 often had issues on his X32.

I seem to recall that the required cable for the X32 was not the same as for the Pro series.

Each vendor specifies the required cables for each product.

An earlier post stated Cat5e only for the X32. Higher numbers do not indicate better. They may or may not work in any given implementation.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Dan Mortensen on July 11, 2019, 02:48:02 pm
An earlier post stated Cat5e only for the X32. Higher numbers do not indicate better. They may or may not work in any given implementation.

On what do you base this opinion (the "may not work" part)?

Searching has not found any proof that higher rated cable does not work where lower rated cable does work.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Rob Spence on July 11, 2019, 07:23:34 pm
On what do you base this opinion (the "may not work" part)?

Searching has not found any proof that higher rated cable does not work where lower rated cable does work.

Depends on how good the implementation of a given protocol is for a product. Just because it has an RJ45 jack (look that up), doesnít mean the circuits behind it are robust.

Just look at the brouhaha over the ESD issues the X32 had.
People who used cables other than that specified sometimes had issues. Not ok for pro work.
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Caleb Dueck on July 11, 2019, 09:58:19 pm
I seem to recall that the required cable for the X32 was not the same as for the Pro series.

This is just from memory, but the Pro 1/2 were different - something about the shields of the Ethercon connectors weren't grounded inside the mixer?  This was based on an email forwarded from Midas from a previous employer, I don't have a link to an actual document. 
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Dan Mortensen on July 12, 2019, 02:41:41 am
Depends on how good the implementation of a given protocol is for a product. Just because it has an RJ45 jack (look that up), doesnít mean the circuits behind it are robust.

While I know what an RJ45 jack is, I'm not sure how that or the rest of what you wrote above relates to your statement that a cable that is designed to pass signal better than a lesser cable actually performs worse in a circuit designed for the lesser cable.

Just look at the brouhaha over the ESD issues the X32 had.
People who used cables other than that specified sometimes had issues. Not ok for pro work.

The issues were from people using exactly the cable that Behringer specified at the time, which was unshielded CAT5e, with Ethercon not necessary. The quote in the Behringer literature, which you can't find anymore, was something like "any CAT 5e cable that can be found in any hardware or other store".
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on July 13, 2019, 05:32:16 am
This is just from memory, but the Pro 1/2 were different - something about the shields of the Ethercon connectors weren't grounded inside the mixer?  This was based on an email forwarded from Midas from a previous employer, I don't have a link to an actual document.

Yes, STP for X/M32 line and UTP for the ProLine.  If you use a ProLine stage box like a DL153 etc. with a X/M32 you'll still use the STP. I was looking at the DL153 for stage boxes so I contacted Midas and that was the reply I got from them.

Douglas R. Allen
Title: Re: Network cable for audio
Post by: William Schnake on July 13, 2019, 07:07:36 pm
This is just from memory, but the Pro 1/2 were different - something about the shields of the Ethercon connectors weren't grounded inside the mixer?  This was based on an email forwarded from Midas from a previous employer, I don't have a link to an actual document.

We use UTP CAT6 on our Pro 1 and Pro 2, 150' run with no issues as of yet.  We are now 2 year in to this system.  We are also running to either a DL251 or DL151 and DL153.  Just depends on which rack we take to a given show.

Bill