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Title: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on October 29, 2018, 08:20:15 pm
Hello everyone,

Iím getting ready to do another show (all EDM DJs) with my equipment which consists of 2 Yamaha SW218v cabinets. The person running the show has access to 2 Peavy QW218 subs that are powered by a QSC PL830. We were both wondering what would happen if we paired them with my subwoofers and ran everything off of the single amp. The PL380 is capable of running at 2ohms providing 4000 watts per channel.

My real question is would there be any significant sound issues running 2 cabinets of one brand of less powerful drivers in line with 2 cabinets of another brand of more powerful drivers. Theyíre both front loaded dual 18Ē cabs with very similar size specs. I donít see if being a huge issue, but I simply donít know enough.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 29, 2018, 08:57:44 pm
Hello everyone,

Iím getting ready to do another show (all EDM DJs) with my equipment which consists of 2 Yamaha SW218v cabinets. The person running the show has access to 2 Peavy QW218 subs that are powered by a QSC PL830. We were both wondering what would happen if we paired them with my subwoofers and ran everything off of the single amp. The PL380 is capable of running at 2ohms providing 4000 watts per channel.

My real question is would there be any significant sound issues running 2 cabinets of one brand of less powerful drivers in line with 2 cabinets of another brand of more powerful drivers. Theyíre both front loaded dual 18Ē cabs with very similar size specs. I donít see if being a huge issue, but I simply donít know enough.

Between the mismatch and the general strain of running the amp @ 2ohms I think your net net will be 0 or perhaps a bit less.  You didn't mention what you had to power your cabinets.

The real questions is do you have the 30amp 120v line that the PL380 requires to come close to delivering rated power?

Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Caleb Dueck on October 29, 2018, 09:05:26 pm
Just use the Peavey subs, PL380 amp, and 30A circuit. Let the Yamaha subs rest at home. 

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on October 29, 2018, 09:07:56 pm
Between the mismatch and the general strain of running the amp @ 2ohms I think your net net will be 0 or perhaps a bit less.  You didn't mention what you had to power your cabinets.

The real questions is do you have the 30amp 120v line that the PL380 requires to come close to delivering rated power?

I typically power my cabs with a couple of crown amps which works, but these EDM guys love a lot of Low end. I know of a guy locally who runs 4 cabinets of dual 18s off of a PL380 with great success so thatís why I thought to ask.

Iím not sure whether he has the 30amp line or not, but Iím also not sure if weíll have 20 or 30amp circuits.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on October 29, 2018, 09:32:13 pm
I suppose I didnít realize that amp would need 30amps to reach its full potential. Sounds like on a 20qmp circuit it might not be that useful to use?
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 29, 2018, 10:07:04 pm
I suppose I didnít realize that amp would need 30amps to reach its full potential. Sounds like on a 20qmp circuit it might not be that useful to use?

Most outlets are 15 amp not 20 but even at 20amp 20*120=2400 watts at 100% conversion (no amp can do that) so anything over 2400 watts is using the reserve in the amp.  EDM music has a high crest factor so uses tons of power.
 
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on October 29, 2018, 10:20:44 pm
Most outlets are 15 amp not 20 but even at 20amp 20*120=2400 watts at 100% conversion (no amp can do that) so anything over 2400 watts is using the reserve in the amp.  EDM music has a high crest factor so uses tons of power.

Understood. Iíll look into whether we have a 30amp circuit or not. Iím inclined to say yes, but Iíll have to check.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Art Welter on October 29, 2018, 11:11:11 pm
Understood. Iíll look into whether we have a 30amp circuit or not. Iím inclined to say yes, but Iíll have to check.
Brian,

EDM music often has a low crest factor which means more average power sent to the drivers even with out clipping the amps. The crest factor can be as little as 3dB, compared with 10 or more in more usual genres, 3 or more times the "cook factor".

Considering the similarity of the subs, doubling up will increase sensitivity by 3 dB, so you would use only half the power for the same SPL level.

Considering the PL380 can use up a 20 amp circuit, best to use your amps for your cabinets so you can split the amps between two circuits.

Considering power compression if only one pair of subs were used, even more than a 6 dB increase in level could be expected using both sets of subs.

Art
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on October 30, 2018, 12:36:10 am
Brian,

EDM music often has a low crest factor which means more average power sent to the drivers even with out clipping the amps. The crest factor can be as little as 3dB, compared with 10 or more in more usual genres, 3 or more times the "cook factor".

Considering the similarity of the subs, doubling up will increase sensitivity by 3 dB, so you would use only half the power for the same SPL level.

Considering the PL380 can use up a 20 amp circuit, best to use your amps for your cabinets so you can split the amps between two circuits.

Considering power compression if only one pair of subs were used, even more than a 6 dB increase in level could be expected using both sets of subs.

Art

Bam. Thatís everything I needed to know!
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 30, 2018, 01:08:55 am
Brian,

EDM music often has a low crest factor which means more average power sent to the drivers even with out clipping the amps. The crest factor can be as little as 3dB, compared with 10 or more in more usual genres, 3 or more times the "cook factor".

Considering the similarity of the subs, doubling up will increase sensitivity by 3 dB, so you would use only half the power for the same SPL level.

Considering the PL380 can use up a 20 amp circuit, best to use your amps for your cabinets so you can split the amps between two circuits.

Considering power compression if only one pair of subs were used, even more than a 6 dB increase in level could be expected using both sets of subs.

Art
Art is right on the crest factor.  I understood concept but misused the term.

Also the PL380 uses an L5-30P twist lock.  We breaker ours at 30 amps.  The specs do call for 18 amps,  however the math still inidicates a continuous tone that depletes the curve could excedd 18 amps at 120V

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on December 05, 2018, 09:13:26 pm
So Iím back again.. Haha.

PL-380 + Cheap Yami subs = a siezed voice coil in one of the cabs. Iím reslly not surprised and honestly wasnít driving them that hard. Cheap emmenance (I think thatís how itís spelled) drivers just couldnít keep up.

So hereís my new question. Whatís my best option? Hereís what I see:

Replace the one blown driver and continue using both cabinets of SW218vs as I was

Replace all 4 drivers with a nicer set. I found a couple options, but I was considering black widows because theyíre $45 to re-cone if I pop one. Downside to this is putting nicer drivers in cheap MDF cabinets. Theyíve been reinforced, but cheap is cheap.

Replace blown driver, try to sell the cabs cheaply and get new subs. This doesnít fit my budget currently but I think I could ultimately afford something new. Iíve been seriously considering buying another set of SW218vs to run with the ones I had and I suppose thatís still an option. Just wanted to see what people thought.

I donít have a massive budget
I play almost all EDM based music
PL-380 for power
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on December 05, 2018, 09:57:35 pm
So Iím back again.. Haha.

PL-380 + Cheap Yami subs = a siezed voice coil in one of the cabs.
Too bad I am just seeing this thread because that was my prediction when I read your plan to use the PL.


So hereís my new question. Whatís my best option? Hereís what I see:

Replace the one blown driver and continue using both cabinets of SW218vs as I was
You don't have 1 blown driver you have 2 at least... you just don't know it yet, the "survivor" in that box has been cooked within seconds of oblivion and will most likely fail the next time it is used. Same goes for the other box too.

Replace all 4 drivers with a nicer set. I found a couple options, but I was considering black widows because theyíre $45 to re-cone if I pop one.
Black Widows are not an upgrade.. don't be fooled by the power rating, but Lowriders would be and incidentally are what is found in the QW subs.

Iíve been seriously considering buying another set of SW218vs to run with the ones I had and I suppose thatís still an option. Just wanted to see what people thought.
If you do this you want all drivers to match so don't upgrade the boxes you have just get some OEM replacement drivers or recones. Adding more boxes is free output form increased driver displacement which means you can have the same SPL while running all of them at a more conservative power level which gives the drivers a better chance of surviving.
I donít have a massive budget
I play almost all EDM based music
PL-380 for power
What have you got to limit this beast? You really need much better subs but failing that you need something to rein in that amp so it's not vaporizing voice coils. For this genre you don't want more than about 1000w/box which means a limiter at 3dB down from full output.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on December 05, 2018, 10:17:31 pm
Too bad I am just seeing this thread because that was my prediction when I read your plan to use the PL.

 You don't have 1 blown driver you have 2 at least... you just don't know it yet, the "survivor" in that box has been cooked within seconds of oblivion and will most likely fail the next time it is used. Same goes for the other box too.
 Black Widows are not an upgrade.. don't be fooled by the power rating, but Lowriders would be and incidentally are what is found in the QW subs.
 If you do this you want all drivers to match so don't upgrade the boxes you have just get some OEM replacement drivers or recones. Adding more boxes is free output form increased driver displacement which means you can have the same SPL while running all of them at a more conservative power level which gives the drivers a better chance of surviving. What have you got to limit this beast? You really need much better subs but failing that you need something to rein in that amp so it's not vaporizing voice coils. For this genre you don't want more than about 1000w/box which means a limiter at 3dB down from full output.

To be honest I saw it coming as well. Thatís why Iím not particularly upset as I knew better.

I actually misspoke I believe. Iím aware the low riders are better subs and I believe also have inexpensive re-come kits (I think). Thatís the direction I was leaning towards.

I was intentionally planning to use 4 cabs of the SW218s to achieve the same SPL at a lower power level and thus less abuse on each driver. Itís still an option, but trust me Iíd rather just have something better than entry level subs. Budget is the issue. I might just be met with the ďthis is the gear you have, here are the limitsĒ type of Situation.

PL-380 is down stream from a drivrack PA2 and a Soundcraft Ui16.

Ultimately I am consistently searching for more low end (this is probably obvious by me saying we play EDM and I have entry level subs)  so Iím thinking Iím just going to have to wait, bite the Bullet and buy myself some real subs.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on December 06, 2018, 04:07:14 am
DIY is worth considering.
You lose brand recognition, but the price-to-performance ratio is off the scale.
I'd expect a B&C 18SW115 in a 35Hz tapped horn to cheerfully annihilate the 2x Yamaha 2x18" cabs.

Top-tier drivers are well worth having IME. They sound better, go louder, and last longer under abusive conditions.

Chris

PS - I'm sure the guys around here are sick of me posting it, so PM me for a video of what you can do with 2x15"s a side.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on December 06, 2018, 08:58:33 am
DIY is worth considering.
You lose brand recognition, but the price-to-performance ratio is off the scale.
I'd expect a B&C 18SW115 in a 35Hz tapped horn to cheerfully annihilate the 2x Yamaha 2x18" cabs.

Top-tier drivers are well worth having IME. They sound better, go louder, and last longer under abusive conditions.

Chris

PS - I'm sure the guys around here are sick of me posting it, so PM me for a video of what you can do with 2x15"s a side.

Funny you say that, because those were the exact same drivers I was looking at purchasing. Unfortunately what I am NOT good at is building cabinets and I canít say I know anyone off hand who is.

PMing you now
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 07, 2018, 11:59:39 am
You likely killed the Yammy's with over-excursion, which is the result of operation below cutoff (with EDM, really? /sarc) and with too much power as well (with EDM, really? /sarc).

To do what you want requires vastly more acoustic output capability than you're looking at with swapping drivers.

What are you limitations for size, weight, and cost?
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on December 07, 2018, 02:41:27 pm
You likely killed the Yammy's with over-excursion, which is the result of operation below cutoff (with EDM, really? /sarc) and with too much power as well (with EDM, really? /sarc).

To do what you want requires vastly more acoustic output capability than you're looking at with swapping drivers.

What are you limitations for size, weight, and cost?

I agree with 100% of that. Again, Iím not surprised I lost a driver.

Size and weight are no concern. Iím 22, have a trailer and dollies.

Cost is the biggest factor for me. I also need to do 1 more show on the 21st which means I need to figure out what equipment I will use. If I have to rent, I suppose I can.

I thought about some TH118s, but finding them is hard and finding them for less than $5k seems to be difficult as well. I canít see spending any more than that (if even that) on subs.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Roland Clarke on December 09, 2018, 08:12:35 am
I agree with 100% of that. Again, Iím not surprised I lost a driver.

Size and weight are no concern. Iím 22, have a trailer and dollies.

Cost is the biggest factor for me. I also need to do 1 more show on the 21st which means I need to figure out what equipment I will use. If I have to rent, I suppose I can.

I thought about some TH118s, but finding them is hard and finding them for less than $5k seems to be difficult as well. I canít see spending any more than that (if even that) on subs.

You could consider the diy route.  There are a few decent options, Art Welters Keystone sub, reasonably simple to build and by all reports sound very good. 

There is a Xoc1 TH18, somewhat based on the Danley TH118, though I believe the internals are slightly different.  These have received a lot of praise, even by people who are familiar with the Danley.  I built my own take on these (made some mods to the internals), these are seriously good, but donít try to save money on the drivers.  They are complicated to build, so I did the design on cad and had the cabinets cut on a cnc machine, glued and screwed them together and finally got them sprayed with speaker finish. 

Another option is the Othorn, a 21inch tapped horn, heavy and difficult to construct, but have quite a few fans.  There is also a very good double 18 ported cab on the 18 Sound website, but obviously that will cost more in drivers.  All the above options will compete with good and above commercial options providing you power them correctly and install the righ, high quality drivers.

This is all assuming you have sufficient diy skills or know someone that will do the build for you cheaply.  As a guide, I am building some of the subs for someone at £650 each less the driver which would be about about £1100 total, perhaps around $1500 in the States.  I think the other designs I mentioned would be around this give or take $200, the double 18Ē would obviously cost the price of a second driver so closer $2000.

Downsides, rider acceptance, low resale value, but then they donít cost much.  Iím fortunate in that my customers rarely ask what Iím supplying and just trust that whatever I bring will sound good and do the job.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on December 09, 2018, 08:34:03 am
I think it's worth noting that the Orthorn tapped horn is tuned quite a lot lower than the rest of the designs mentioned here, and will give roughly 10Hz more extension. The down-side is the extra size and weight you'll have to carry while the output levels will be comparable.

Chris
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Roland Clarke on December 09, 2018, 11:06:48 am
I think it's worth noting that the Orthorn tapped horn is tuned quite a lot lower than the rest of the designs mentioned here, and will give roughly 10Hz more extension. The down-side is the extra size and weight you'll have to carry while the output levels will be comparable.

Chris

This is indeed the case.  What I think needs to be considered is wether having a speaker reproduce 20hz in concert sound is of any real use.  My 18 inch tapped horns will do 30hz before rolling off (I actually have a 24db/Oct filter at 28hz, this helps protects the driver).  I suspect some EDM freaks will like what the Othorn can do, but itís a trade off.  With 20hz tuning, you could expect potential issues at 40 and 80 hz, within your low pass range, higher tuning of around 30-35hz should leave only one within the pass-band.  At Plasa this year I heard some cardioid horn subs that although their low corner was 38hz, sounded very big and full.  Obviously we could debate for hours, but in my experience, flat 20hz subs give little benefit for the vast majority of gigs.  YMMV of course. 😊
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on December 09, 2018, 11:21:34 am
Unfortunately what I am NOT good at is building cabinets and I canít say I know anyone off hand who is.


As much as I agree with you guys about DIY subs, OP did say they are a no go.....
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Roland Clarke on December 09, 2018, 12:49:00 pm
As much as I agree with you guys about DIY subs, OP did say they are a no go.....

That will teach me not to skim threads!  There are people on the threads for these subs who will undertake third party builds, and often you can see pictures of their work, so itís not beyond the realms of possibility.  The other alternative is to look for something decent secondhand, not so easy I feel, good isnít cheap, cheap isnít usually any good.

As an aside, my build was prompted through needing a rig for small, medium size, gigs.  I used to hire, until fees, vs rates made it unviable.  I bought a small srx rig, 812ís, 828, but it runs out of headroom and Iím either nursing it close to the edge or compromising to keep it within limitation.  Working for clients with D&B, Líacoustic, Meyer, KV2, etc, meant I wanted to get something this standard, but with prices around £30-40,000 not realistic for the amount of gigs I needed to supply kit for and client budgets.  Going the DIY option, can indeed work, however, I would caution getting caught up with some of the ďtweakĒ brigade, some diy designs are just impractical and miss basic design objectives and donít cut corners in terms of build quality and drivers.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on December 09, 2018, 04:31:26 pm
As much as I agree with you guys about DIY subs, OP did say they are a no go.....

It's not completely out of the realm of possibility, it's just highly unlikely. I have no wood working tools myself so I would HAVE to find someone who has the tools and is willing to help/not charge an insane amount of money.

I have kept a close eye on the used market near me, but I haven't seen much of anything worth my time. It's mostly JBL stuff or inexpensive powered gear. Granted I don't know of many used sites that tailor specifically to audio. I've found a few but 99% of the ads are sold or thousands of miles away. I am in the Austin Texas area.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 09, 2018, 05:37:04 pm
It's not completely out of the realm of possibility, it's just highly unlikely. I have no wood working tools myself so I would HAVE to find someone who has the tools and is willing to help/not charge an insane amount of money.

I have kept a close eye on the used market near me, but I haven't seen much of anything worth my time. It's mostly JBL stuff or inexpensive powered gear. Granted I don't know of many used sites that tailor specifically to audio. I've found a few but 99% of the ads are sold or thousands of miles away. I am in the Austin Texas area.

What skills outside of EDM/audio do you have?  I ask because the "maker movement" is very strong (and I'd be surprised if there wasn't a workshop group or two in the Austin area) and having skills you can barter is a respected thing.  Maker-spaces usually have well equipped shops in woodworking, metals, industrial sewing, 3D printing, laser/plasma/water cutting tools.  The primary restriction is not doing commercial production but building some subs for yourself is probably okay.  You'll have to join up, pay membership and hourly shop fees, etc but having a nice shop and meeting some good, helpful people is well worth it.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on December 09, 2018, 07:19:27 pm
What skills outside of EDM/audio do you have?  I ask because the "maker movement" is very strong (and I'd be surprised if there wasn't a workshop group or two in the Austin area) and having skills you can barter is a respected thing.  Maker-spaces usually have well equipped shops in woodworking, metals, industrial sewing, 3D printing, laser/plasma/water cutting tools.  The primary restriction is not doing commercial production but building some subs for yourself is probably okay.  You'll have to join up, pay membership and hourly shop fees, etc but having a nice shop and meeting some good, helpful people is well worth it.

I would call myself a man of many trades. I can (and have done) do just about anything I set my mind to from rebuilding an engine to mixing sound. I wasn't aware of maker shops, but that might certainly be something I can look into.

My next grievance with home built subs is rider issues. While that's not an issue for me yet, I think it will be in the foreseeable future. That's part of the reason I had been trying to keep my eyes peeled for some Danley subs. Home built would certainly help me reduce cost though. Sounds like I need to do some more personal research.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Rob Spence on December 10, 2018, 01:09:18 am
I would call myself a man of many trades. I can (and have done) do just about anything I set my mind to from rebuilding an engine to mixing sound. I wasn't aware of maker shops, but that might certainly be something I can look into.

My next grievance with home built subs is rider issues. While that's not an issue for me yet, I think it will be in the foreseeable future. That's part of the reason I had been trying to keep my eyes peeled for some Danley subs. Home built would certainly help me reduce cost though. Sounds like I need to do some more personal research.

I had been wanting Danley subs for quite a while and a year ago was able to pick up some used ones from a company needing cash to pay for their upgraded rig. Glad I did.
Patience.


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Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on December 10, 2018, 03:50:39 am
I would call myself a man of many trades. I can (and have done) do just about anything I set my mind to from rebuilding an engine to mixing sound. I wasn't aware of maker shops, but that might certainly be something I can look into.

My next grievance with home built subs is rider issues. While that's not an issue for me yet, I think it will be in the foreseeable future. That's part of the reason I had been trying to keep my eyes peeled for some Danley subs. Home built would certainly help me reduce cost though. Sounds like I need to do some more personal research.

I run a full custom-built PA system. Haven't hit rider issues yet. I just send out the specs of the system (2x10" mains, 1300W RMS, 2600W peak, 15" subs, 1000W RMS, 2000W peak, tri-amped, digital processing) and the artist's management is usually happy with that, including Artists You've Heard Of.

Having a video of the system set up in a large space seems to help.

FWIW, for EDM I'd go straight for Orthorns. I had a DJ recently where most tracks had the 31Hz bar on my RTA lit up solidly, which has got me re-thinking my current subs which are flat-to-40Hz, but don't do much below that.

Chris
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on December 10, 2018, 04:25:36 pm
So I think Iíve made a decision.

I believe Iím going to try and purchase 4 B&C 18SW115s and put them in my Yami cabs for the time being. I have a couple more shows coming and need something. Iím aware these drivers will not see their full potential in these cabs, but thatís okay.

I found the 50 page thread on DIY about the Orthorn cabs and my spidey senses started tingling especially when I realized he had already green lit the 18SW115s for use. All of my drivers would be right at home in those cabs when I have the time and money to be able to build/have them built. Not to mention if I want to upgrade to 21s down the line I can do so easily. I could build 2 initially then build even 2 more if I wanted to stick with 18s.

Any objections to this idea?
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Rob Spence on December 10, 2018, 09:39:48 pm
So I think Iíve made a decision.

I believe Iím going to try and purchase 4 B&C 18SW115s and put them in my Yami cabs for the time being. I have a couple more shows coming and need something. Iím aware these drivers will not see their full potential in these cabs, but thatís okay.

I found the 50 page thread on DIY about the Orthorn cabs and my spidey senses started tingling especially when I realized he had already green lit the 18SW115s for use. All of my drivers would be right at home in those cabs when I have the time and money to be able to build/have them built. Not to mention if I want to upgrade to 21s down the line I can do so easily. I could build 2 initially then build even 2 more if I wanted to stick with 18s.

Any objections to this idea?

I did not look up the specs on your chosen drivers so...

Just because some drivers are awesome in some other boxes does not mean they will work worth a damn in some other box.

There is science in choosing replacement drivers so make sure the parameters on these are compatible with the parameters of the OEM drivers.

By this i donít mean things like watts or impedance.
There are these things called Theil Small parameters and they are what matter.

You did check those, right?



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Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Roland Clarke on December 11, 2018, 04:43:59 am
The 18sw115 driver is a popular choice.  I use them in my tapped horns and I believe Danley use them in their th18, they are also a recommended driver for Art Welters keystone sub.  My only reservation re using them with the Orthorn, would be the lower tuning.  In the above mentioned designs most people are high passing at around 28-30hz and running them lower will likely reduce their maximum spl.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on December 11, 2018, 01:53:32 pm
I did not look up the specs on your chosen drivers so...

Just because some drivers are awesome in some other boxes does not mean they will work worth a damn in some other box.

There is science in choosing replacement drivers so make sure the parameters on these are compatible with the parameters of the OEM drivers.

By this i donít mean things like watts or impedance.
There are these things called Theil Small parameters and they are what matter.

You did check those, right?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

In my case with the Yami cabs, I am going off of another post in this forum. A guy beefed his cabs and replaced the drivers with B&C 18SW100s with good success. The cab requirements for the 115s seem to be similar enough I think they will also work well. The guys who did that swap ran the specs from the eminence software and the 100s were a fit.

In the case of the Orthorn, Ricci green lit the 115s as being acceptable in those cabs. Thatís what I was going off of..
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Rob Spence on December 12, 2018, 12:07:51 am
In my case with the Yami cabs, I am going off of another post in this forum. A guy beefed his cabs and replaced the drivers with B&C 18SW100s with good success. The cab requirements for the 115s seem to be similar enough I think they will also work well. The guys who did that swap ran the specs from the eminence software and the 100s were a fit.

In the case of the Orthorn, Ricci green lit the 115s as being acceptable in those cabs. Thatís what I was going off of..

What does ďacceptable ď in this context mean? Compatible parameters for the cabinet design? Sounds ok?


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Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on December 12, 2018, 09:36:53 am
What does ďacceptable ď in this context mean? Compatible parameters for the cabinet design? Sounds ok?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Yes comparable parameters for can design and volume. The guys who did this reported a significant increase in performance over the stock drivers.

I feel youíre quite skeptical of it. Do you have thoughts for another route? I just donít see being able to get 2-4 cabs purchased and built within the next couple of months.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on December 12, 2018, 10:42:13 am
Rob's trying to warn that simply swapping speakers around won't always give better performance.
Your best bet is to take 10 minutes, fire up WinISD and make sure the 18SW115 will give decent performance in the cabinets you have.

FWIW, I'd still want 21"s in the Orthorn. Dropping an 18" in there will likely give a peakier response with lower maximum output. I'd expect output to be decent for sure, but the cabinet is really designed to get the most out of a high-power 21" unit.

Chris
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Josh Ricci on December 12, 2018, 11:13:22 am
The Othorn tuning is at about 27 or 28Hz in order to reach a solid 25Hz with headroom. High pass should be set at about 23Hz. The 18SW115 will work in the cab, meaning the response and behavior should be good, however it will have about 4dB less headroom than the 21SW152, 21NLW9601, 21DS115, etc.... This may not sound like much but it is. I really recommend using a 21" driver if at all possible. Tuning lower than most cabs requires extra driver displacement. You need all that you can get. By all accounts these do quite well with EDM.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on December 12, 2018, 11:22:08 am
The Othorn tuning is at about 27 or 28Hz in order to reach a solid 25Hz with headroom. High pass should be set at about 23Hz. The 18SW115 will work in the cab, meaning the response and behavior should be good, however it will have about 4dB less headroom than the 21SW152, 21NLW9601, 21DS115, etc.... This may not sound like much but it is. I really recommend using a 21" driver if at all possible. Tuning lower than most cabs requires extra driver displacement. You need all that you can get. By all accounts these do quite well with EDM.

Straight from the man himself I guess.

My biggest issue is being caught between having working equipment now and having better equipment later. I know what the long-term best choice is. Just a difficult pill to swallow.

I suppose for the time being I can rent subs and try to sell off mine. Although I don't see them being worth much of anything with 1 bad driver and potentially more hurt. Fortunately replacement stock drivers for the yami cabs are very cheap.

My next pressing issue is finding someone to build them. I did some searches for speaker cabinet builders in the Austin area but only seemed to come up with people who build cabs for guitars.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on December 12, 2018, 11:24:59 am
What kind of tops are people using with these Othorns?

I'm using Peavy SP4 IIs currently. I am actually quite happy with how they sound, but ultimately they're not really meant to be used with subs. I don't have any intention of changing these soon because they ARE working well, but I'm curious as to what else is being used.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Jeremy Young on December 12, 2018, 01:48:34 pm
Brian, if I were in your shoes, I would replace the Yammy drivers with the OEM originals, and then try to sell them. 

Then set aside your money for something that meets your criteria and rent until you have it.  If you're not charging enough for your services to be able to cross-rent equipment when necessary, you're not charging enough.

Putting non-OEM drivers into the Yamaha subs might be suitable for the short-term for your needs but it doesn't sound like it's the long-term solution.  If a potential buyer for the Yamahas already has a few of those cabs, they won't want non-Yamaha drivers in them.  It also sounds like your plan would involve using those non-OEM drivers in a different project later, meaning you'd still need some drivers to put in there in order to sell them.

Personally I'd rather store/transport/deploy as few cabinets as possible to reach my goals, rather than just buying more of the Yamaha cabinets to get to your desired SPL.

However, this is against what you've said you can do with your budget currently, and you mentioned having shows coming up and I don't know what cross-rental rates/availability are like in your area, or what your storage/transport/labour limitations are, so take this as just one perspective.  I've spent a lot of money on gear, and it gets more expensive whenever you try to compromise performance for a "deal" in the short term, because in the long term you end up buying what you should have on day one and spend more money in lessons (blown drivers, time researching and replacing drivers and having discussions like this) and whatever your "deal" gear depreciated in the meantime.  Buy once, cry once. 


If you need low freq performance, have you looked at the JTR Captivator 218Pro (http://jtrspeakers.com/captivator-218pro.html)?
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on December 12, 2018, 02:35:17 pm
Many years ago when dinosaurs walked the planet and us poor musicians didn't have a pot to pee in, instead of buying speakers/subs, I used to replace blown speakers in old cabinets all the time and I didn't have anything like the knowledge or experience I have now (and no-one to guide me like you guys)
Celestions were readily available in the UK then - probably still are and got used for everything it seemed.
I'd say my success rate from guessing what would work and what wouldn't was probably about 80% plus so I suppose I got lucky.
I enjoyed the DIY sided of things but tried to pick up pre made cabs so I didn't have to make them myself - I'd gut them and refurbish...... those were the days.....
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Rob Spence on December 12, 2018, 03:01:12 pm
+1 to replacing the blown drivers with OEM. Throttle back a bit so you are not throwing money away on blown drivers.

In 30+ years I have replaced only a couple of drivers and I know why.

Another plus for renting when you need more low end is that you can think of it as auditioning and you get to try em in your rig. It will bring more confidence to your eventual purchase.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on December 12, 2018, 05:01:17 pm
Build cabinets to driver's specs; as opposed to selecting drivers to cabinet's specs...

That's for best results,
that's why OEM driver replacement tends to work best. 
There are exceptions to OEM replacement being best of course, but you have to be able to model to find them.

If you are committed to the 18SW115's (excellent driver) , I'd look at the numerous cabinet designs built for them, on diyaudio.

IMO, DIY subs are the one place we can still save alot of $$$, and play up with the top tier.. no matter how high their bar.
I've yet to see a commercial design I'd rather have over my current DIY subs...
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on December 12, 2018, 05:19:40 pm
Alright. I'm on board.

I'm going to replace the drivers in the 1 bad cabinet with OEMs and continue to use them until they are sold. I'll throttle back on them and cross rent when I need it. The subs I rent are DIY and pretty similar to my Yamis, but more powerful. I can afford to rent from them.

Once I have those cabinets sold I think I'll build the Othorns in the 21" variant and call it a day. I don't know a lot about those JTR subs but the little I read seemed to show good things. I'll continue to look into them as well.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Jeremy Young on December 13, 2018, 04:30:08 pm
Brian, I own a pair of the JTR Orbit Shifter Pro subwoofers in 4-ohm.  By all measures they are a top quality subwoofer, easy to move with one person, make a lot of noise with minimal input but can handle a lot of power if you've got it.  If your clients aren't demanding major name-brands, they are worth considering.

The reason I didn't suggest those particular ones is that they are designed more for output above 40hz (these things with kick drum are unreal) but fall off quickly in the mid-30's so for your EDM application you might find them lacking low end response.  The 218 design is tuned lower in a similar sized cabinet, so more in line with your needs.  The specs they list on the website are very "realistic", and not the optimistic marketing hype that some manufacturers use.

There's a write-up on the 218's elsewhere on this forum, here's a link. (https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,168146.0.html)
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on December 13, 2018, 07:11:46 pm
Brian, I own a pair of the JTR Orbit Shifter Pro subwoofers in 4-ohm.  By all measures they are a top quality subwoofer, easy to move with one person, make a lot of noise with minimal input but can handle a lot of power if you've got it.  If your clients aren't demanding major name-brands, they are worth considering.

The reason I didn't suggest those particular ones is that they are designed more for output above 40hz (these things with kick drum are unreal) but fall off quickly in the mid-30's so for your EDM application you might find them lacking low end response.  The 218 design is tuned lower in a similar sized cabinet, so more in line with your needs.  The specs they list on the website are very "realistic", and not the optimistic marketing hype that some manufacturers use.

There's a write-up on the 218's elsewhere on this forum, here's a link. (https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,168146.0.html)

My clients are not asking for really anything yet, so I don't think it'll be an issue. For the stuff we're doing I don't think I should actually be concerning myself with riders.

I will take a serious look at those 218s. I did see that thread, but hadn't fully explored it. The price point of those is certainly very attractive and everything I've read concerning JTR products has been good. I run a PL-380 currently which I believe will meet my needs for some time to come.

Thank you for that recommendation. It's true us EDM guys love the low end and every small system in this area really falls apart below 40hz. If I could get into that lower range, I'd be setting myself apart.

EDIT: Please excuse my ignorance, but can I expect to pay the $1899 "Manufacture direct" price tag, or would that only be for dealers?
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on December 14, 2018, 03:51:37 am
My clients are not asking for really anything yet, so I don't think it'll be an issue. For the stuff we're doing I don't think I should actually be concerning myself with riders.

I will take a serious look at those 218s. I did see that thread, but hadn't fully explored it. The price point of those is certainly very attractive and everything I've read concerning JTR products has been good. I run a PL-380 currently which I believe will meet my needs for some time to come.

Thank you for that recommendation. It's true us EDM guys love the low end and every small system in this area really falls apart below 40hz. If I could get into that lower range, I'd be setting myself apart.

EDIT: Please excuse my ignorance, but can I expect to pay the $1899 "Manufacture direct" price tag, or would that only be for dealers?

Don't worry about riders. If it comes up, tell them you've got this many 21" tapped horns which provide full power to below 30Hz. You'll be fine.

With regards to pricing, why not get in touch with JTR direct? By all accounts the owner is a pleasure to deal with. I believe he does post around here from time to time.

Chris
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Jeremy Young on December 14, 2018, 12:23:15 pm


EDIT: Please excuse my ignorance, but can I expect to pay the $1899 "Manufacture direct" price tag, or would that only be for dealers?


Yes. 
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Greg Harwood on December 18, 2018, 10:08:06 am
OP...if you haven't looked into BassBoss yet, I would recommend checking them out.  They make a bunch of different subs geared toward DJ/EDM type stuff.  They play loud and low.  I got to hear a local BassBoss demo and heard almost every sub they offer and I was blown away.  They have a 21" sub that made the hair on my arms stand at attention and rumbled my innards at about 25ft away.  Check them out.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on December 18, 2018, 04:19:55 pm
OP...if you haven't looked into BassBoss yet, I would recommend checking them out.  They make a bunch of different subs geared toward DJ/EDM type stuff.  They play loud and low.  I got to hear a local BassBoss demo and heard almost every sub they offer and I was blown away.  They have a 21" sub that made the hair on my arms stand at attention and rumbled my innards at about 25ft away.  Check them out.

I have quite a lot of experience with BassBoss actually and in the sake of not putting my foot in my mouth, I'm just going to leave it at I'm not interested in their products. Especially not at the price point.

Thank you though!
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Greg Harwood on December 18, 2018, 04:32:03 pm
I have quite a lot of experience with BassBoss actually and in the sake of not putting my foot in my mouth, I'm just going to leave it at I'm not interested in their products. Especially not at the price point.

Thank you though!

Fair enough.  Didn't see anyone mention them so I thought I'd bring them up.  I have no other experience with them outside of the demo.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on December 18, 2018, 04:57:10 pm
Fair enough.  Didn't see anyone mention them so I thought I'd bring them up.  I have no other experience with them outside of the demo.

Several of the clubs in my area use them and those of us who have an idea of what quality sound is (just compared to the drunk people in the club) have been disappointed with the sound of the products. Despite that, those subs definitely raise hairs and go quite low.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Mike Pyle on December 18, 2018, 05:18:22 pm
Several of the clubs in my area use them and those of us who have an idea of what quality sound is (just compared to the drunk people in the club) have been disappointed with the sound of the products. Despite that, those subs definitely raise hairs and go quite low.

A number of folks here are familiar with Bassboss and would disagree with your opinion.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Brian Strachan on December 18, 2018, 05:25:43 pm
A number of folks here are familiar with Bassboss and would disagree with your opinion.

And they are certainly welcome to disagree! Again I donít mean to talk down about the system. Perhaps the people in my area are running it poorly, but thatís just been our opinion. I also am not in the position to spend almost $5,000 on 1 subwoofer.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 20, 2018, 12:39:28 pm
Several of the clubs in my area use them and those of us who have an idea of what quality sound is (just compared to the drunk people in the club) have been disappointed with the sound of the products. Despite that, those subs definitely raise hairs and go quite low.

I've not heard any of David Lee's products other than his subs but I'd be very, very surprised if his top boxes sounded bad when powered, processed and installed/used as BassBoss specifies.  Unless the well is already poisoned, I'd suggest you call David and ask him about what you've noticed and see if Owners Doing Stupid Shit could account for what you observed.

Pleasing drunk people pays the bills even if they flock to what you or I might think of as lousy sound.  I'd also be surprised if your dissatisfaction is with the subwoofers.  While not a "value" brand in the slightest, BassBoss generally outperforms or matches stuff with more highly regarded names and even higher prices.  Whether or not that represents a good investment for owners is a decision they have to make.
Title: Re: Mixmatching subs?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 20, 2018, 05:51:05 pm
. I also am not in the position to spend almost $5,000 on 1 subwoofer.
It is not the price of the cabinet that you should be concerned with.


But rather the price vs performance ratio.

As an example, would you rather have 1 cabinet that costs $5000, that outperforms 4 cabinets that cost a total of $5000?

Unless you are into "cabinet count" and that is all that matters (it is to some people), it should be the performance/dollar that is of greatest interest.

Now maybe you don't need $5000 worth of performance, maybe $1000 worth of performance is all you need.  If so, then a better quality cabinet is a waste of money.

With any loudspeaker, the fewer you can use to get the performance needed, the better it will overall perform.