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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Rick Powell on October 13, 2018, 09:20:51 pm

Title: Big house bar rig
Post by: Rick Powell on October 13, 2018, 09:20:51 pm
Long-winded post.

One of the clubs we play at is considering purchasing a portable rig for outdoor/indoor use.  Here are the variables.
1. They don't know a lot about pro sound equipment and are relying on ours and others' advice.
2. From May to September most of the bands play outdoors on a big deck. There can be up to 300 people on it, and they are looking to expand even more. A flown rig might be nice, but I think it will be impractical given #3. There are up to 7 bands on a weekend during the busiest days, and never less than 3 in the summer months.
3. From October to April, they move the bands indoors and they generally run one band only, on Saturday nights.
4. Right now the bands set up in the center of the deck facing the short width. Left and right of the band, the deck goes for 30 or 40 feet in each direction. It is probably 30 feet deep in the direction the band plays. Due to the layout of everything else, it is not practical to set the band where they play long-ways down the deck. So the typical 90 degree coverage of a speaker misses some of the crowd right and left of the stage. We have used supplemental speakers (JTR Triple 8s) to provide additional mid-hi coverage width when using our system.
5. They'd like to wheel the rig indoors for the winter. Covering the inside would be a snap compared to covering the outdoor deck. The place might hold 200 people max indoors.
6. We told them, if you are having a house system, you had better have 3 or 4 people on call to run it. You don't want a sound system to be left at the mercy of whatever band comes in, and if you have only one house sound person, they are going to be unavailable sometimes, and sometimes without a lot of notice.

So, one of my first thoughts is for them to look at powered speakers and monitors, a relatively simple digital board and stagebox, and run a Cat 5 cable for both your summer and winter setups so it will be in a permanent, out of the way location. I haven't really thought through solving the wide coverage issue, maybe a powered S.O.S as outward side fills. And then the question of BYOM's and stands vs. having house mics/stands/cords/DIs etc.

I am looking at both equipment recommendations and the business side of doing this, to give them the best advice. We told them that an adequate system is gonna run in the neighborhood of $15k and up, depending on how fancy they want to get.
Title: Re: Big house bar rig
Post by: MikeHarris on October 14, 2018, 04:03:16 am
Moving a system will insure it's not recconnected properly at either location. Look at Martin CDD12 or 15 for all-weather outside...with subs if affordable. They have 100-120 degree coverage below speakers centerline. Powered shouldnt be outside as they will become intermittent and pose a danger eventually. Yamaha DXR12/15 do the job well enough and still leave some pesos in pocket for the rest of system
Title: Re: Big house bar rig
Post by: Dave Garoutte on October 14, 2018, 01:37:20 pm
I help with developing a local beer garden venue.
We simplified setup a lot by installing some wall-mount speaker brackets that use the tripod holes.
Consistent location and more stage room, as well as tip-proof.
Also allows for a variety of speakers depending on provider.

I'll always defer to the Yamahas  DXR or DSR.
Title: Re: Big house bar rig
Post by: Mike Caldwell on October 15, 2018, 08:39:22 am
Your paragraph #6 is spot on.

Unless this club is truly interested in doing it right I would suggest have them rent/lease a real system from a professional company complete with a system tech.

You also need to mention system maintenance to them if they want to go it on their own.
Title: Re: Big house bar rig
Post by: John Halliburton on October 15, 2018, 09:02:42 am
Long-winded post.

One of the clubs we play at is considering purchasing a portable rig for outdoor/indoor use.  Here are the variables.
1. They don't know a lot about pro sound equipment and are relying on ours and others' advice.
2. From May to September most of the bands play outdoors on a big deck. There can be up to 300 people on it, and they are looking to expand even more. A flown rig might be nice, but I think it will be impractical given #3. There are up to 7 bands on a weekend during the busiest days, and never less than 3 in the summer months.
3. From October to April, they move the bands indoors and they generally run one band only, on Saturday nights.
4. Right now the bands set up in the center of the deck facing the short width. Left and right of the band, the deck goes for 30 or 40 feet in each direction. It is probably 30 feet deep in the direction the band plays. Due to the layout of everything else, it is not practical to set the band where they play long-ways down the deck. So the typical 90 degree coverage of a speaker misses some of the crowd right and left of the stage. We have used supplemental speakers (JTR Triple 8s) to provide additional mid-hi coverage width when using our system.
5. They'd like to wheel the rig indoors for the winter. Covering the inside would be a snap compared to covering the outdoor deck. The place might hold 200 people max indoors.
6. We told them, if you are having a house system, you had better have 3 or 4 people on call to run it. You don't want a sound system to be left at the mercy of whatever band comes in, and if you have only one house sound person, they are going to be unavailable sometimes, and sometimes without a lot of notice.

So, one of my first thoughts is for them to look at powered speakers and monitors, a relatively simple digital board and stagebox, and run a Cat 5 cable for both your summer and winter setups so it will be in a permanent, out of the way location. I haven't really thought through solving the wide coverage issue, maybe a powered S.O.S as outward side fills. And then the question of BYOM's and stands vs. having house mics/stands/cords/DIs etc.

I am looking at both equipment recommendations and the business side of doing this, to give them the best advice. We told them that an adequate system is gonna run in the neighborhood of $15k and up, depending on how fancy they want to get.

Danley OS series.  I wouldn't hang self powered speakers even seasonally outside. And it may not be a bad thing if a pair of OS80 say don't hit the crowd edges outside, as their neighbors may be an issue.  Would they leave the subs outside too?

I think $15k is not enough, period. What are the rigging options?  Is there truss or beam work(as part of the deck construction maybe?). 

Best regards,

John




Title: Re: Big house bar rig
Post by: John Halliburton on October 15, 2018, 09:03:00 am
Long-winded post.

One of the clubs we play at is considering purchasing a portable rig for outdoor/indoor use.  Here are the variables.
1. They don't know a lot about pro sound equipment and are relying on ours and others' advice.
2. From May to September most of the bands play outdoors on a big deck. There can be up to 300 people on it, and they are looking to expand even more. A flown rig might be nice, but I think it will be impractical given #3. There are up to 7 bands on a weekend during the busiest days, and never less than 3 in the summer months.
3. From October to April, they move the bands indoors and they generally run one band only, on Saturday nights.
4. Right now the bands set up in the center of the deck facing the short width. Left and right of the band, the deck goes for 30 or 40 feet in each direction. It is probably 30 feet deep in the direction the band plays. Due to the layout of everything else, it is not practical to set the band where they play long-ways down the deck. So the typical 90 degree coverage of a speaker misses some of the crowd right and left of the stage. We have used supplemental speakers (JTR Triple 8s) to provide additional mid-hi coverage width when using our system.
5. They'd like to wheel the rig indoors for the winter. Covering the inside would be a snap compared to covering the outdoor deck. The place might hold 200 people max indoors.
6. We told them, if you are having a house system, you had better have 3 or 4 people on call to run it. You don't want a sound system to be left at the mercy of whatever band comes in, and if you have only one house sound person, they are going to be unavailable sometimes, and sometimes without a lot of notice.

So, one of my first thoughts is for them to look at powered speakers and monitors, a relatively simple digital board and stagebox, and run a Cat 5 cable for both your summer and winter setups so it will be in a permanent, out of the way location. I haven't really thought through solving the wide coverage issue, maybe a powered S.O.S as outward side fills. And then the question of BYOM's and stands vs. having house mics/stands/cords/DIs etc.

I am looking at both equipment recommendations and the business side of doing this, to give them the best advice. We told them that an adequate system is gonna run in the neighborhood of $15k and up, depending on how fancy they want to get.
Title: Re: Big house bar rig
Post by: Rob Spence on October 15, 2018, 11:40:26 am
One thing I donít like (but many do) about MI powered speakers is that they have way too many adjustments on the rear to screw up the settings. Inevitably, someone will change something just cause they can and the results can vary from lousy sound to perhaps damage.
I find it tedious to have to crawl all over with flashlight checking the back of every speaker and sub just before sound check to make sure nothing got changed in transit or load in. I had the polarity switch on a KW181 get flipped once and the resulting lack of bottom was underwhelming.

In my not so humble opinion, those changes belong in the system processor. Hence, passive system, hence no problem installing power convenient to every installed speaker.

Heck, amps and DSP permanently installed inside. A patch to select inputs and outputs to either inside or out. Two configs in the DSP to select between twice a year.

My $0.02



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Title: Re: Big house bar rig
Post by: Rick Powell on October 15, 2018, 09:59:18 pm
Lots of good comments so far. The idea of having a protected rack and processor inside, and moving speakers around as needed (Speakon wall plates? On both interior and exterior stages) is an interesting one.

John, they could probably do a decent speaker hang from the exposed roof truss over the deck (properly designed and rigged) but I think they are looking more at a rig that they could wheel indoors and outdoors as needed. Last weekend they had the Friday band play indoors, and the Sat/Sun bands played outdoors. I donít think they are keen on having to hoist speakers up and down, much less on a weekly basis during the season where the weather is changing and they have to make an indoor/outdoor call (the deck is covered so rain is not so much an issue as the cold).
Title: Re: Big house bar rig
Post by: Scott Olewiler on October 16, 2018, 12:02:45 pm
Lots of good comments so far. The idea of having a protected rack and processor inside, and moving speakers around as needed (Speakon wall plates? On both interior and exterior stages) is an interesting one.

John, they could probably do a decent speaker hang from the exposed roof truss over the deck (properly designed and rigged) but I think they are looking more at a rig that they could wheel indoors and outdoors as needed. Last weekend they had the Friday band play indoors, and the Sat/Sun bands played outdoors. I donít think they are keen on having to hoist speakers up and down, much less on a weekly basis during the season where the weather is changing and they have to make an indoor/outdoor call (the deck is covered so rain is not so much an issue as the cold).

Passive seems to be the way to go.

I think moving mixer and associated items, ( cables, snakes, ) is going to be more of a problem than moving speakers in and out unless you rack mount the mixer including permanently attached drop snakes. 

Everything  including digital tablet controlled mixer and powered amps completely mounted  and connected in a rolling case, where you can pull out the snake input box,  drop it on the stage, with a speakon  panel clearly labeled A, B, etc with corresponding labels on back of passive speakers.  Subs are on locking wheels , sub pole and tops remain on them.  Roll out three main FOH items, mixer rack case and two wheeled stacks.  Roll out a single dolly with wedges.  Another box with mics, stands etc. 5 items to move, connections are minimal. Leave side fill needed outside permanently installed there.  There is no reason everything can't stay connected except for speaker cables and mic cables.

Create a default show on the mixer and reset it to that after every band.




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Title: Re: Big house bar rig
Post by: Brian Jojade on October 16, 2018, 10:23:35 pm
For this type of venue, the best bet would be to contract a sound company that would be responsible for everything, especially since they are not planing on a permanent type install.

Hiring a company means all they have to do is write a check and everything is handled.


If they just go out and buy gear but don't have techs to operate and maintain it, it WILL end up a broken pile of mess.  Ask every bar ever that thought they could just put in a system and have it work for people that came in without supervision.

A budget of $15K might be reasonable, if that's the maintenance budget to take care of gear each year that is installed. :)

Really though, if they are looking at every piece that is needed to put in a sound rig including design, setup, mixer, cables, stands, storage, etc, you're going to be hard pressed to get something for $15K unless you are looking at bottom of the barrel MI level stuff.
Title: Re: Big house bar rig
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on October 18, 2018, 07:45:44 am
I'm with everyone on passive speakers internally. When you install the speakon wall plates definitely make sure they get specced with dust covers and that they are used and get replaced if broken.

For the stage cabling and such may I suggest something with a remote stage box(x/m32 with dl stage boxes) but the stage boxes remain in the cupboard with the amps. You then install 2-3 multicores to each stage with a weather-resistant multipin connector, something probably bayonet type with water and dust proof rating so that you can just move 2-3 drop snakes between the two stages and connect a network cable to the console.

What is happening for lighting at this time?

What's happening for power?
If they want to do this properly then maybe they should be looking at having a california(or something to code, I'm in another country) at each and have a house distro that they just move between the two stages?

Convenience costs money, this needs to be made clear to them. I really think you can find some passive boxes that will work well enough as a compromise in both venues yet still sound good. The speakon connectors just need to be well labeled and they will be at least mildly idiot proof(although I've met enough people who do not know how to connect/disconnect a speakon connector that I cannot guarantee that)