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Title: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Jon Brunskill on September 17, 2018, 10:04:59 pm
Hi all,

I recently got hold of these three consoles so I could try them out and choose which one to buy. Thought I'd share it in case anyone else is trying to choose between these three

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZH6nyOjxjU&t=2s&frags=pl%2Cwn


Cheers,

Jon
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mike Caldwell on September 17, 2018, 11:29:06 pm
Hi all,

I recently got hold of these three consoles so I could try them out and choose which one to buy. Thought I'd share it in case anyone else is trying to choose between these three

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZH6nyOjxjU&t=2s&frags=pl%2Cwn


Cheers,

Jon

Just watched your video.
The QU SB can not be used as a stage box in the sense of using it as an external input source for other QU series mixers like you would use a AR2412 or a AB168.
I would be very handy to be able to do that though.

For what it's worth I have a QU Pac and both an AR2412 and AB168.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Jon Brunskill on September 18, 2018, 12:07:46 am
Just watched your video.
The QU SB can not be used as a stage box in the sense of using it as an external input source for other QU series mixers like you would use a AR2412 or a AB168.
I would be very handy to be able to do that though.

For what it's worth I have a QU Pac and both an AR2412 and AB168.

Thanks for that, I thought for some reason it could pass through to the QU mixers. I could see it being a great stage box and monitor mixer set up like that. The QU-Pac does look like a great solution, but I decided to save the extra money and put it towards the rest of the system I'm building up
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mal Brown on September 18, 2018, 12:50:07 am
From an software standpoint, to me the UI-24 is a superior product.  See, the ui-24 is a web server.  That means Browser... no app.  Why is that important ?  Every time the board manufacturer drops a firmware update for the A&H, Mackie, B-Box, Presonus, etc... there will be a new app.  Will the app run on your OS ?  Maybe, maybe not...  I got stung a few times with Presonus and Mackie...  with the UI-24, update the firmware and connect.  As long as your Browser supports html 5, you are good to go.  Brilliant!

The ui-24 also sounds great.  It hangs tough with my SI Expression rigs.  I actually prefer mixing on a Dell 21.5Ē all in one pc with win 10 hard cabled to a wireless router, with the UI-24 hard cabled as well.  We wander with iPads for some of the show but... the big screen is fun to mix on.

Hint.... on the big screen. Open and size multiple browsers.  There is a setting that forces them to follow each other for channel selection...  I set one small one to EQ, another to Aux Contributions.  The main mix is on the bottom with 22 channels exposed.  Select the kick on the bottom and the other windows follow the kick.  So kick Eq and Kick monitor contributions... all in one view of 3 browser Windows...pretty darn cool!
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Tim Hite on September 18, 2018, 06:02:41 am
Very timely, I was pondering these very items this evening.



Hi all,

I recently got hold of these three consoles so I could try them out and choose which one to buy. Thought I'd share it in case anyone else is trying to choose between these three

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZH6nyOjxjU&t=2s&frags=pl%2Cwn


Cheers,

Jon
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Alec Spence on September 18, 2018, 06:26:18 am
From an software standpoint, to me the UI-24 is a superior product.  See, the ui-24 is a web server.  That means Browser... no app.  Why is that important ?  Every time the board manufacturer drops a firmware update for the A&H, Mackie, B-Box, Presonus, etc... there will be a new app.  Will the app run on your OS ?  Maybe, maybe not...  I got stung a few times with Presonus and Mackie...  with the UI-24, update the firmware and connect.  As long as your Browser supports html 5, you are good to go.  Brilliant!
The web server software doesn't make it de facto superior - just different.  Haven't people been burnt with incompatible browsers - including after an apparently innocuous browser update?

In the end, there's no clear winner with any of these boxes, as it all depends on your own criteria.  If the UI24R delivers on it's supposed forthcoming ability to cascade two devices to give double the capacity, then that's a winning expandability in this sector.

Then again, for me the flexibility of the Mixing Station app, and the price, make the XR18 unbeatable for my small event requirements.  In the end, it's all personal - I just wish I'd known about the lightweight cardboard edition...
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Scott Slater on September 18, 2018, 07:06:37 am
From an software standpoint, to me the UI-24 is a superior product.

I really like the idea of an HTML5 based product.  I think other manufacturers should consider this route in the future.  I currently own a Q-Pac and really like it, but was forced to mix a festival type event featuring 5 bands on it this past weekend.  I brought one of our GLD consoles planning to use it, but when we arrived there was no place in to set it up, and it was an area with lots of sand.  For this reason I opted to use the Q-Pac instead, and it worked fine, but I had to use several tablets since the event was so long.  Charging 2 while using one.   I only have 3 iPads and 2 are older models.  For this reason, I have not updated the firmware on the Q-Pac in the past year.  I want to know that it's going to work when I use it, and I have a feeling that if I go to the newest iOS and firmware, that my 2 older tablets will become obsolete.

I just ordered a Ui24R which will give me more devices to be able to work on without having to worry about them becoming obsolete as quickly.  I also like the idea that it can (supposedly) multi-track record directly to a USB stick, and can play break music from a stick using mp3 format.

-Scott
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Taylor Hall on September 18, 2018, 09:18:05 am


In the end, there's no clear winner with any of these boxes, as it all depends on your own criteria.  If the UI24R delivers on it's supposed forthcoming ability to cascade two devices to give double the capacity, then that's a winning expandability in this sector.

I'll be interested to see if any other companies in the digital mixer realm copy this feature. It's kind of a shame that the ui24 doesn't have any kind of expansion slot for AES/Dante/MADI/etc like other rackmounts, it would really make this the device to beat, even if it added a couple hundred bucks to the price.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mal Brown on September 18, 2018, 11:06:26 am
The web server software doesn't make it de facto superior - just different.  Haven't people been burnt with incompatible browsers - including after an apparently innocuous browser update?

Not with html5 compatibility... it is something of a standard and should be around for a long time to come.  There is a lot of industrial strength thin client software out there based on html 5 that is in the hundreds of dollars per seat category...   cad viewers (not cad workstation of course), manufacturing, ERP - yeah, my day gig is spent in that arena working with PDM and PLM products.

The Ui-24 has had 2 firmware updates since itís release with another imminent (supporting cascading boxes) and left no one behind...   I rarely made it through 1 firmware update with either of my 16.4.2 or dl-1608 boards with all connecting devices intact.

Basing the UI on html5 also

1.keeps the App Store out of the distribution loop
2.keeps the developers in one dev environment so they can focus on feature set and reliability and still addresses multiple OS devices.
3.  One dev team to manage, not one per OS (writing for iOS is nothing like writing for Windows. Android oS I have stayed away from due to itís lack of standards, at least early on).

The translates into Soundcraft being able to deliver a high reliability product and react to customer demand faster at the same time...  which they have basically proven at this point,and will cement with the next release.

My biggest gripe...  that the Ui based software hasnít been adopted on the SI Expression platform and it is not likely it could be...
(Yes, I suppose I have drunk the Ui 24 Kool-Aid ;-)
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Steve Garris on September 18, 2018, 05:00:41 pm
Not with html5 compatibility... it is something of a standard and should be around for a long time to come.  There is a lot of industrial strength thin client software out there based on html 5 that is in the hundreds of dollars per seat category...   cad viewers (not cad workstation of course), manufacturing, ERP - yeah, my day gig is spent in that arena working with PDM and PLM products.

The Ui-24 has had 2 firmware updates since itís release with another imminent (supporting cascading boxes) and left no one behind...   I rarely made it through 1 firmware update with either of my 16.4.2 or dl-1608 boards with all connecting devices intact.

Basing the UI on html5 also

1.keeps the App Store out of the distribution loop
2.keeps the developers in one dev environment so they can focus on feature set and reliability and still addresses multiple OS devices.
3.  One dev team to manage, not one per OS (writing for iOS is nothing like writing for Windows. Android oS I have stayed away from due to itís lack of standards, at least early on).

The translates into Soundcraft being able to deliver a high reliability product and react to customer demand faster at the same time...  which they have basically proven at this point,and will cement with the next release.

My biggest gripe...  that the Ui based software hasnít been adopted on the SI Expression platform and it is not likely it could be...
(Yes, I suppose I have drunk the Ui 24 Kool-Aid ;-)

Mal, I should fly down and visit you some day when you have a gig. I'm seriously looking at the Ui24 right now, upgrading from a DL1608.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Jon Brunskill on September 18, 2018, 05:49:44 pm
In the end, it's all personal - I just wish I'd known about the lightweight cardboard edition...

That was a limited edition, but I'm more than happy to sell it to you!!!

It's kind of a shame that the ui24 doesn't have any kind of expansion slot for AES/Dante/MADI/etc like other rackmounts, it would really make this the device to beat, even if it added a couple hundred bucks to the price.

I've heard that this is a highly requested feature, but no idea if they are going to do anything about it. It is possible to use Dante Via with the Ui24 over USB, but you would need a seperate laptop to do that.

At the end of the day it's not a high end product, and advanced features at this level are unlikely.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Alec Spence on September 18, 2018, 08:41:45 pm
At the end of the day it's not a high end product, and advanced features at this level are unlikely.
Which is the crux of why it's hard to make a decision at this end of the market.  Expandability is great, but it's unrealistic to expect too much for this price.

Though, as I said before, the ability to join two UI24s together would be quite brilliant.

Currently, the X32 rack with an S16 or S32 box is currently king of the capability pile, with 32 in, 16 out for just over UKP 1,000.  While it has many other tricks going for it, it would be trumped by 2 x UI24 giving 40 in, 20 (I think) out, but for ~40% more cost.

Likewise, in the cheaper direction, the XR18 sacrifices I/O over the UI24R, along with a few other neat features, but is half the price.

I still have reservations on the web interface on the UI mixers - not least my general experience that web interfaces never feel as responsive as client server interfaces.  One question, though - how is it on a phone?  The XR's Mixing Station is obviously better on a bigger screen, but I've mixed happily on my phone - not least on a long show where my tablet went low on battery after 5 hours, where I was relieved to be able to carry on with my phone while the tablet recharged.

I've never really got my head round the QU stuff - there are just a few too many limitations there for me.

It does feel like the game is between Soundcraft & Behringer in this corner of the market, though...
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Jeff Lelko on September 18, 2018, 09:11:46 pm
It does feel like the game is between Soundcraft & Behringer in this corner of the market, though...

Not if you consider the dLive to be a rack mixer, and as of now the ultimate rack mixer at that!  But thatís on the opposite end of the spectrum and far from an apples-to-apples comparison. 

But on topic...

All of these products have a place, limitations, and price points.  Coming from a current Qu-PAC owner/user, I could never see myself using anything without a direct interface (wired or otherwise) for professional applications.  The extra couple hundred of dollars will more than pay for itself if the consequences of losing control of the mix are severe.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 18, 2018, 09:35:22 pm
I really like the idea of an HTML5 based product.  I think other manufacturers should consider this route in the future.  I currently own a Q-Pac and really like it, but was forced to mix a festival type event featuring 5 bands on it this past weekend.  I brought one of our GLD consoles planning to use it, but when we arrived there was no place in to set it up, and it was an area with lots of sand.  For this reason I opted to use the Q-Pac instead, and it worked fine, but I had to use several tablets since the event was so long.  Charging 2 while using one.   I only have 3 iPads and 2 are older models.  For this reason, I have not updated the firmware on the Q-Pac in the past year.  I want to know that it's going to work when I use it, and I have a feeling that if I go to the newest iOS and firmware, that my 2 older tablets will become obsolete.

I just ordered a Ui24R which will give me more devices to be able to work on without having to worry about them becoming obsolete as quickly.  I also like the idea that it can (supposedly) multi-track record directly to a USB stick, and can play break music from a stick using mp3 format.

-Scott

I still have an ipad2 that I no longer take to shows - I use an IPAD PRO with an iPad mini as back up ... but it  runs the current software OK....for now....
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: David Winners on September 18, 2018, 10:20:32 pm
Which is the crux of why it's hard to make a decision at this end of the market.  Expandability is great, but it's unrealistic to expect too much for this price.

Though, as I said before, the ability to join two UI24s together would be quite brilliant.

Currently, the X32 rack with an S16 or S32 box is currently king of the capability pile, with 32 in, 16 out for just over UKP 1,000.  While it has many other tricks going for it, it would be trumped by 2 x UI24 giving 40 in, 20 (I think) out, but for ~40% more cost.

Likewise, in the cheaper direction, the XR18 sacrifices I/O over the UI24R, along with a few other neat features, but is half the price.

I still have reservations on the web interface on the UI mixers - not least my general experience that web interfaces never feel as responsive as client server interfaces.  One question, though - how is it on a phone?  The XR's Mixing Station is obviously better on a bigger screen, but I've mixed happily on my phone - not least on a long show where my tablet went low on battery after 5 hours, where I was relieved to be able to carry on with my phone while the tablet recharged.

I've never really got my head round the QU stuff - there are just a few too many limitations there for me.

It does feel like the game is between Soundcraft & Behringer in this corner of the market, though...

Imo, the king of the capability pile is (2) X32 Racks. Less than $2000, 42 inputs, 28 outputs, 16 effects rack slots. With some creative routing it's an incredibly versatile mixing solution, particularly for bands using in ears. Add in an X-Live and X-WSG card and you have a lot of mixer for not a lot of money.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Alec Spence on September 19, 2018, 04:37:55 am
Imo, the king of the capability pile is (2) X32 Racks. Less than $2000, 42 inputs, 28 outputs, 16 effects rack slots. With some creative routing it's an incredibly versatile mixing solution, particularly for bands using in ears. Add in an X-Live and X-WSG card and you have a lot of mixer for not a lot of money.
Good point that you can exploit features across both X32 Racks if you have this configuration.  But not for the faint hearted, as it'd be two devices separately controlled for mix purposes if you want to use all the FX & IO options.  Otherwise, one X32 Rack is just a (slightly more expensive) S16.

I think the two linked UI24s would offer a neater large channel count option, appearing as a single mixer with 40 mic pres, as I understand it.

I'm still firmly in the X32/XR18 camp for many reasons, though there's plenty in the UI24 to look apealing.

Not if you consider the dLive to be a rack mixer, and as of now the ultimate rack mixer at that!  But thatís on the opposite end of the spectrum and far from an apples-to-apples comparison. 

Coming from a current Qu-PAC owner/user, I could never see myself using anything without a direct interface (wired or otherwise) for professional applications.  The extra couple hundred of dollars will more than pay for itself if the consequences of losing control of the mix are severe.
The dLive is nowhere near the budget end that we're talking about here.  Vendors like Studer offer arguably better still rack-only options, but all big money pro stuff.

Are on-board controls any better than a wired laptop/tablet?  If the mixer is in stagebox location, the latter at least allows for a more helpful mix point - and is unlikely to have a cost burden, assuming you already have the device.

But, ultimately, the decisions people make on mixers like this are probably influenced much more heavily by price, channel count & workflow than by sound quality alone...
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Jeff Lelko on September 19, 2018, 06:45:44 am
The dLive is nowhere near the budget end that we're talking about here.

Of course not, but the reason I mention this is that if high input/output options, networking cards, etc., are needed - the options ARE already out there, and honestly I feel that if this sort of system is truly needed then the price of a CDM32 is justified (and isn't really all that much more if compared to cascading numerous lower-cost products).

Are on-board controls any better than a wired laptop/tablet? 

I personally think so, and this is the one thing I'm going to miss when trading out my Qu-PAC for a dLive.  Reliability aside, I see it as a factor of convenience - not having to pull out a computer/tablet/networking equipment just to tweak a setting before sending the gear on the road.  The Qu-PAC's onboard interface has also saved me more than once in the field when either WIFI gets iffy or my tablet needs to recharge or be tasked with something else.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Dave Guilford on September 19, 2018, 08:45:57 am
The last part.  How do you get the other browsers to follow ????

From an software standpoint, to me the UI-24 is a superior product.  See, the ui-24 is a web server.  That means Browser... no app.  Why is that important ?  Every time the board manufacturer drops a firmware update for the A&H, Mackie, B-Box, Presonus, etc... there will be a new app.  Will the app run on your OS ?  Maybe, maybe not...  I got stung a few times with Presonus and Mackie...  with the UI-24, update the firmware and connect.  As long as your Browser supports html 5, you are good to go.  Brilliant!

The ui-24 also sounds great.  It hangs tough with my SI Expression rigs.  I actually prefer mixing on a Dell 21.5Ē all in one pc with win 10 hard cabled to a wireless router, with the UI-24 hard cabled as well.  We wander with iPads for some of the show but... the big screen is fun to mix on.

Hint.... on the big screen p. Open and size multiple browsers.  There is a setting that forces them to follow each other for channel selection...  I set one small one to EQ, another to Aux Contributions.  The main mix is on the bottom with 22 channels exposed.  Elect the kick on the bottom and the other windows follow the kick.  So kick Eq and Kick monitor contributions... pretty darn cool!
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 19, 2018, 01:49:49 pm
The last part.  How do you get the other browsers to follow ????

Because all the control is happening IN the UI.  The browsers are letting you twiddle and see the program in the UI. 
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mal Brown on September 19, 2018, 04:37:57 pm
It is under settings local as I recall.  Iíll hook up and look up tonight.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mal Brown on September 19, 2018, 04:47:29 pm
Mal, I should fly down and visit you some day when you have a gig. I'm seriously looking at the Ui24 right now, upgrading from a DL1608.

It is a serious upgrade!  I used my dL-1608 on literally hundreds of gigs.  Loved it.  The Ui-24 smokes it...

Iíd be happy to host and really that goes for anyone in the northwest...  Iíll be on the deck at Maryhill with my band Saturday 9/22.  Noon to 5 I think.  It would be on the Maryhill Winery website.  Wonít be using the big Dell as we are cramped so Iíll be all IPad this time out.  we stuff a 4 piece with keys and drums into a space that normally holds singles and duoís ...  Itís a fun gig in spite of that though.  Probably my last outdoor date of the season...
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mike Caldwell on September 19, 2018, 06:08:26 pm
[quote author=Jeff Lelko

I personally think so, and this is the one thing I'm going to miss when trading out my Qu-PAC for a dLive.  Reliability aside, I see it as a factor of convenience - not having to pull out a computer/tablet/networking equipment just to tweak a setting before sending the gear on the road.  The Qu-PAC's onboard interface has also saved me more than once in the field when either WIFI gets iffy or my tablet needs to recharge or be tasked with something else.
[/quote]

That's the reason I went with the QU Pac, I wanted compactness
with a form of on board back up and depending on the show the front panel is handy for quick adjustments.

The UI24 is a real mixer and a big upgrade to the UI series.
That said I have a UI16 and it does have a place, I use it for small light weight events and carry it as a back up. 
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Taylor Hall on September 20, 2018, 08:31:59 am
For anyone on the fence, PSSL has the UI24R on sale today for $499!

http://www.pssl.com/Killer-Daily-Deals
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Alec Spence on September 20, 2018, 08:42:31 am
For anyone on the fence, PSSL has the UI24R on sale today for $499!
http://www.pssl.com/Killer-Daily-Deals
Now, that's a superb price.
Between that and the prices on the XR/X32 gear, times are unthinkably good in the tablet mixing world...
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Taylor Hall on September 20, 2018, 08:51:00 am
Now, that's a superb price.
Between that and the prices on the XR/X32 gear, times are unthinkably good in the tablet mixing world...

Or the digital world in general. I remember back with the Yamaha 1v and other "entry level" digital mixers came out, 24 or fewer channels and a $3000 (or more) price tag! Now you can get a similar product for a fraction of the cost.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Marc Sibilia on September 20, 2018, 09:18:22 am
For anyone on the fence, PSSL has the UI24R on sale today for $499!

http://www.pssl.com/Killer-Daily-Deals

On sale is reconditioned.  It is still very tempting.

Marc
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Will Knight on September 20, 2018, 10:21:36 am
For anyone on the fence, PSSL has the UI24R on sale today for $499!

http://www.pssl.com/Killer-Daily-Deals

Just ordered 1.  Factory reconditioned comes with full Manu warranty so if anything goes south, will still be good to go.  Already have the Ui16 which has worked out very well for small gigs.  Assuming this unit holds up, it will eventually replace my Ui16.   
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Jay Marr on September 20, 2018, 10:58:13 am
Wow that's a good price.

Can anyone confirm something that I can't (while surfing the web on my phone).
Do the outputs have Xover filters?   And are Matrix mixes possible (using the Auxes I assume).

I know these are simple (RTFM) questions, but I'm having trouble finding it quickly, and this deal may sell out fast.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Len Zenith Jr on September 20, 2018, 11:21:55 am
Already sold out. I tried to jump in but they wanted $125 for shipping and $150 for sales tax to Canada. Not that great of a deal after that for us up north.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Tim Hite on September 20, 2018, 11:54:39 am
Thanks Marc, I snagged one. Really unbeatable deal.


On sale is reconditioned.  It is still very tempting.

Marc
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mal Brown on September 20, 2018, 12:06:13 pm
Wow that's a good price.

Can anyone confirm something that I can't (while surfing the web on my phone).
Do the outputs have Xover filters?   And are Matrix mixes possible (using the Auxes I assume).

I know these are simple (RTFM) questions, but I'm having trouble finding it quickly, and this deal may sell out fast.


Matrix mixes are available, aux, vca and sub groups as well.

Aux outs have variable LPF/HPF filters.  Not specifically for x-over use. Tapping about on the demo I was unable to change the slope of the filter.  On the channels, the filters have selectable 12, 24 and 36 dB slopes available.  I may have missed something on the aux filters...
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mal Brown on September 20, 2018, 12:10:21 pm
It is under settings local as I recall.  Iíll hook up and look up tonight.

To have multiple browsers open on one device follow each other ...
Settings, Local, Sync Selected channel.   This is an awesome feature when using a large display.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Jay Marr on September 20, 2018, 01:24:14 pm

Matrix mixes are available, aux, vca and sub groups as well.

Aux outs have variable LPF/HPF filters.  Not specifically for x-over use. Tapping about on the demo I was unable to change the slope of the filter.  On the channels, the filters have selectable 12, 24 and 36 dB slopes available.  I may have missed something on the aux filters...

Thank you
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 20, 2018, 08:49:26 pm
And the VCAs spill too.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 20, 2018, 09:16:12 pm
Not to piss on the party bit last year I stopped buyong things that were a good deal.

Every 6 months we revisit our purchasing plans and buy what we need not what is on sale or catches someone's eye.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Marc Sibilia on September 20, 2018, 09:30:00 pm
Every 6 months we revisit our purchasing plans and buy what we need not what is on sale or catches someone's eye.
You are more experienced, wiser, more disciplined, and make more money at this than I do.

I have something to aspire to.  It is why I hang out here.

Marc
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 20, 2018, 10:08:45 pm
Marc,

I have a warehouse of "good deals" it was pain not intelligence that got us here.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 20, 2018, 10:34:31 pm
You are more experienced, wiser, more disciplined, and make more money at this than I do.

I have something to aspire to.  It is why I hang out here.

Marc

Think of such expenditures as tuition at the Ye Olde Skool of Harde Knoxģ.  You might do well or might be a waste, but until you acquire enough Harde Knox you won't know.

A decade+ ago, I bought an original silver-faced Yammy O1v.  $400 tuition to wrap my head around this whole "mixing with ones and zeros" stuff that the kids were all excited about (I'm an old Analogue Guy).  I'm glad I did; I still own the mixer and it gets used a couple times a year - in some respects it's still superior to a number of new compact mixers - and I learned that digital mixing was the best way for me to deliver on sonic promises I made to clients.  I've blown $$ on stuff that didn't pay back, as well.

Hopefully the UI24 will provide you with growth opportunity.  And you can always sell it if you don't see any value in owning it...
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Tim Hite on September 21, 2018, 05:14:47 am
I need another mixer for a gig next weekend. This just happened to be great timing for a special. I was already writing a PO for a UI16 when I found out about the PSSL deal.

So I ended up spending an extra $100 and got quite a bit more mixer. Something I could do a full band on instead of dragging the X32 out.


Not to piss on the party bit last year I stopped buyong things that were a good deal.

Every 6 months we revisit our purchasing plans and buy what we need not what is on sale or catches someone's eye.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Jay Marr on September 21, 2018, 09:17:52 am
Not to piss on the party bit last year I stopped buyong things that were a good deal.

Every 6 months we revisit our purchasing plans and buy what we need not what is on sale or catches someone's eye.
Different people have different decision drivers/budgets/etc.

So you're not pissing on the party....I will still buy 'good deals' even without a true business need.  I will buy things that sound 'a little better' even if they don't make me more money.
I do make money playing music, but it is not my source of real income.  (and I fully understand that it is for a lot of folks on this board).

Why do I mention this?
Because sometimes people ask for opinions on Mixer A vs. Mixer B....and they get 10 responses of "tell me why you really need a new Mixer", rather than "Yes, B sounds better than A.
I understand people are trying to share what has made their business successful....but some people are not looking for that advice.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 21, 2018, 10:59:26 am
Different people have different decision drivers/budgets/etc.

So you're not pissing on the party....I will still buy 'good deals' even without a true business need.  I will buy things that sound 'a little better' even if they don't make me more money.
I do make money playing music, but it is not my source of real income.  (and I fully understand that it is for a lot of folks on this board).

Why do I mention this?
Because sometimes people ask for opinions on Mixer A vs. Mixer B....and they get 10 responses of "tell me why you really need a new Mixer", rather than "Yes, B sounds better than A.
I understand people are trying to share what has made their business successful....but some people are not looking for that advice.

It's often more germane to ask why a person wants to make what is typically a lateral purchase rather than engage in a pointless discussion about what "better" consists of.  Better for you might be worse for me, because our gray-matter computer's interpretation of human audition is influenced by other parts of our brain.

I don't particularly care for how an X32 sounds but I own 2 of them myself and my employer has a pair also.  They're disposable, mostly, and so they go out on the rodeos and blowing sand gigs and other hostile environment work, and the X32 are good enough for the client and performers.  I'm not buying *subjectively better* mixers for those uses.

You're right that this forum is a crossover between hobbyists, bands running their own sound and small commercial operators.  Only the hobbyists can afford to make incremental, lateral and subjective moves without penalty (unless the significant other has an issue).

If you or your employees are the sole operators or if you have no profit-making requirements, buy and use whatever trips your trigger for whatever reasons.  It's your money and time to use in the way you feel benefits you most... and not all decisions that are commercial (my purchase of the 01V years ago, for example) have to do with that particular item being a profit center, only that such purchases can lead to better future purchase decisions.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 21, 2018, 02:23:57 pm
It's often more germane to ask why a person wants to make what is typically a lateral purchase rather than engage in a pointless discussion about what "better" consists of.  Better for you might be worse for me, because our gray-matter computer's interpretation of human audition is influenced by other parts of our brain.

I don't particularly care for how an X32 sounds but I own 2 of them myself and my employer has a pair also.  They're disposable, mostly, and so they go out on the rodeos and blowing sand gigs and other hostile environment work, and the X32 are good enough for the client and performers.  I'm not buying *subjectively better* mixers for those uses.

You're right that this forum is a crossover between hobbyists, bands running their own sound and small commercial operators.  Only the hobbyists can afford to make incremental, lateral and subjective moves without penalty (unless the significant other has an issue).

If you or your employees are the sole operators or if you have no profit-making requirements, buy and use whatever trips your trigger for whatever reasons.  It's your money and time to use in the way you feel benefits you most... and not all decisions that are commercial (my purchase of the 01V years ago, for example) have to do with that particular item being a profit center, only that such purchases can lead to better future purchase decisions.

Tim is exactly right, I still purchase things as a hobby, but lately they tend to be less audio oriented.

When the business started out, in my garage it was a hobby gone mad with no plan to make a profit.  Things changed, my day job tenure is winding down, more people are involved now and we grew.  If we make a bad decision on a 10k console we have to live with until it is off the books (or a serious business crisis was created).

The more I do this the more the perceived differences go away.  I have heard awful shows with Soundcraft boards and I saw Bruce Hornseby mixed on an x32 and a dbTech t4 PA and the engineer did a great job with the gear and the room.  JY made a little stage stacked 3 box Kara rig sound beyond amazing for Peter Frampton in a tough room.  The rest of the week was ok to awful, same PA, a few different, all top of the line consoles.

The skills of the people putting the bits together is most of the value we sell. 
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 21, 2018, 02:58:22 pm
The skills of the people putting the bits together is most of the value we sell.

Unfortunately,  Everyone looks at the equipment to pre-decide the quality of the provider.
Just because you drive a Ferrari, doesn't mean you know how to take a corner.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: brian maddox on September 21, 2018, 03:59:50 pm
Unfortunately,  Everyone looks at the equipment to pre-decide the quality of the provider.
Just because you drive a Ferrari, doesn't mean you know how to take a corner.

It's funny.  In Singer/Songwriter/Folk circles there often an inverse relationship between how expensive the guitar is and how good the artist is.  There's no money in Acoustic/Folk music so the Pros and Semi-Pros are lucky if they can make enough to eat.  They sure don't have the cash for a 10,000 dollar instrument.   But the guys with a Day Job and a Dream do...
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 21, 2018, 04:33:13 pm
It's funny.  In Singer/Songwriter/Folk circles there often an inverse relationship between how expensive the guitar is and how good the artist is.  There's no money in Acoustic/Folk music so the Pros and Semi-Pros are lucky if they can make enough to eat.  They sure don't have the cash for a 10,000 dollar instrument.   But the guys with a Day Job and a Dream do...

Yeah, most working folk musicians don't have the coin for a Martin D-28 or one of Bob Taylor's custom instruments.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Taylor Hall on September 21, 2018, 04:36:46 pm
To be fair, a lot of folk musicians can do more with a pair of spoons and a makeshift dobro made from a cigar box than a lot of "modern" musicians.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: John Chiara on September 21, 2018, 04:54:49 pm
Tim is exactly right, I still purchase things as a hobby, but lately they tend to be less audio oriented.

When the business started out, in my garage it was a hobby gone mad with no plan to make a profit.  Things changed, my day job tenure is winding down, more people are involved now and we grew.  If we make a bad decision on a 10k console we have to live with until it is off the books (or a serious business crisis was created).

The more I do this the more the perceived differences go away.  I have heard awful shows with Soundcraft boards and I saw Bruce Hornseby mixed on an x32 and a dbTech t4 PA and the engineer did a great job with the gear and the room.  JY made a little stage stacked 3 box Kara rig sound beyond amazing for Peter Frampton in a tough room.  The rest of the week was ok to awful, same PA, a few different, all top of the line consoles.

The skills of the people putting the bits together is most of the value we sell.
Thus is the deal in many situations. I mixed a Chicago blues act..Toronzo Cannon with an X32 on a $200K D&B rig outdoors last month.
Here is an audience members note to the management...

ďThis message is for everyone who was involved in last nights production of Toronzo Cannon, I would like to say that the sound was absolutely magnificent, it was so crisp and clear, like wearing a pair of great headphones, you could hear every note and every word spoken and sung, just amazing!Ē
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Steve Garris on September 21, 2018, 10:50:51 pm
For anyone on the fence, PSSL has the UI24R on sale today for $499!

http://www.pssl.com/Killer-Daily-Deals

Well dammit, I would have bought that in a hot second but my internet has been down since Wed!
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Nathan Riddle on September 22, 2018, 12:35:49 pm
Well dammit, I would have bought that in a hot second but my internet has been down since Wed!

It went OOS fast so you didn't miss anything
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Dave Pluke on September 22, 2018, 12:54:24 pm
For anyone on the fence, PSSL has the UI24R on sale today for $499!

http://www.pssl.com/Killer-Daily-Deals

That's what I get for being too busy to check this forum on a daily basis  :( .  Let me know if you see that deal again. 

On a slight tangent, what has been the group's experience with ordering "open box", "customer returned" or "reconditioned" products from PSSL?  I ask because I'd ordered such a Gator case for my Souncraft Impact from PSSL.  They estimated a shipping date one week beyond the purchase date, which seemed odd if it was taking up shelf space, processed my payment then, one month later - without explanation - cancelled my order and refunded my money.  No response to my inquiry for an explanation.

Not a good way to begin a relationship...

Dave
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mal Brown on September 23, 2018, 12:45:26 pm
Friday evening I got to mix on a Behringer X18 - Standard software on an Android tablet.   Color me not impressed.  The UIís of the Mackie  DL and Soundcraft UI are so much easier to navigate...

That said, the sound quality was fine.  Mains were QSC KQ-12ís over 181ís which I am very familiar with.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Scott Bolt on September 23, 2018, 01:19:23 pm
Friday evening I got to mix on a Behringer X18 - Standard software on an Android tablet.   Color me not impressed.  The UIís of the Mackie  DL and Soundcraft UI are so much easier to navigate...

That said, the sound quality was fine.  Mains were QSC KQ-12ís over 181ís which I am very familiar with.
My bass player has an XR18 and I have an X32 Rack.  I find that the X32 apps are much more friendly ..... but then again, I have spent more time on them so my opinion may be biased.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Tim Hite on September 23, 2018, 02:00:03 pm
I ordered my Ui24 Thursday and received it Friday. Showed up in a generic box, foamed in place with nothing but a power cable.

Unit looks new and seems to work OK, will start running signal through it Monday.



That's what I get for being too busy to check this forum on a daily basis  :( .  Let me know if you see that deal again. 

On a slight tangent, what has been the group's experience with ordering "open box", "customer returned" or "reconditioned" products from PSSL?  I ask because I'd ordered such a Gator case for my Souncraft Impact from PSSL.  They estimated a shipping date one week beyond the purchase date, which seemed odd if it was taking up shelf space, processed my payment then, one month later - without explanation - cancelled my order and refunded my money.  No response to my inquiry for an explanation.

Not a good way to begin a relationship...

Dave
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Alec Spence on September 23, 2018, 03:47:56 pm
Friday evening I got to mix on a Behringer X18 - Standard software on an Android tablet.   Color me not impressed.  The UIís of the Mackie  DL and Soundcraft UI are so much easier to navigate...

Mixing Station, right?  It may not be pretty, and in its default configuration it's a little uninspiring.  The real power comes in the customisation of layouts and layers - this isn't immediately obvious, and takes a while to get into.  Once mastered, Mixing Station can become a really comfortable solution.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Tim Hite on September 23, 2018, 05:03:06 pm
Mixing Station is a separate app from the M Air software?

I saw there were a few other control options. Wishing for one to work on my iPhone in a pinch when the iPad goes down.

Mixing Station, right?  It may not be pretty, and in its default configuration it's a little uninspiring.  The real power comes in the customisation of layouts and layers - this isn't immediately obvious, and takes a while to get into.  Once mastered, Mixing Station can become a really comfortable solution.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Alec Spence on September 23, 2018, 07:22:31 pm
Mixing Station is a separate app from the M Air software?

I saw there were a few other control options. Wishing for one to work on my iPhone in a pinch when the iPad goes down.
Yup, in the Play Store, the official "X AIR" app is rather old and crusty.  The developer continued it independently as "Mixing Station X Air" - much better.  The free version is great, but the £5 cost for the Pro version is money very well spent.

I believe the Apple app is only for iPad and not iPhone.  But, as I don't do iStuff, I can't be 100% sure of that.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Tim Hite on September 23, 2018, 07:26:19 pm
Yeah the Apple app only works on iPad, which I get caught out by from time to time when my tablet dies. Would love to be able to jump on the phone for backup purposes or on long shows.

OTOH, this has occasionally provided excellent learning opportunities for my helper dude.


Yup, in the Play Store, the official "X AIR" app is rather old and crusty.  The developer continued it independently as "Mixing Station X Air" - much better.  The free version is great, but the £5 cost for the Pro version is money very well spent.

I believe the Apple app is only for iPad and not iPhone.  But, as I don't do iStuff, I can't be 100% sure of that.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 23, 2018, 08:31:51 pm
Yup, in the Play Store, the official "X AIR" app is rather old and crusty.  The developer continued it independently as "Mixing Station X Air" - much better.  The free version is great, but the £5 cost for the Pro version is money very well spent.


I wondered why the 2 apps were so similar - this explains it - thanks.
I agree - the PRO version is really worth the upgrade for all the customizing features it offers.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mal Brown on September 24, 2018, 12:50:02 am
Based on my experience...  Soundcraft for the win...  really 3rd party apps ?
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 24, 2018, 01:48:13 am
Based on my experience...  Soundcraft for the win...  really 3rd party apps ?

In the case of the X/M ecosystem, yes.  Developer David Giga created Mixing Station; it was better than Behringer's app and the base version was free.  For ~$5 the Pro version gets you more layers and more customization than possible in the other versions.

David is responsive to user bug reports and solicits user input and experiences to guide feature development in his apps.  I think Behringer put most of their software efforts into the X/M32 Edit for PC and Mac and left the Android app market to him (intentionally or not).  Behringer still has a monitor mixing app.

David also has Mixing Station for Allen-Heath's Qu and GLD mixers, too.  I admit that 3rd party development in audio control apps isn't common, but it's begin done.

BTW, if the Ui24 didn't use a web browser y'all would be waiting on Soundcraft to develop a fully functional app for it...  App development seems to be a software bottleneck for some manufacturers:  look how long it takes Yamaha to write suitable apps... or Avid Venue - no app, you use telnet to remote control the host (console) computer.   Just sayin'... 8)
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Alec Spence on September 24, 2018, 09:16:23 am
Based on my experience...  Soundcraft for the win...  really 3rd party apps ?
That attitude is a bit like the "no open source" view that many corporate IT clients take, where a paid application must be better than a free one.

In the end, if an app works well and is well supported, that's far more important to me than who's provided it.  And vendors to have pretty poor track records in updating their apps.  Soundcraft have been good at updating their firmware/app for the UI24 so far - the same can't be said for the UI12/16 which left users in the lurch for a long time before an update made things less bad.  And they were always iPad only for their VI/SI desks, which sucked.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Jay Marr on September 24, 2018, 09:33:51 am
Based on my experience...  Soundcraft for the win...  really 3rd party apps ?

Yes, and thank god!

Behringer/Midas/A&H don't have to hire an Android Dev Team because David G. is building their apps for them = Lower Cost to build/support the products.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Gary Weller on September 24, 2018, 10:36:14 am
Soundcaft's app for the Si is in terrible need of updating, It's fine for what it does, but it doesn't do much of anything compared to Behringer and the rest (haven't used Yamaha's).

You can't access the FX controls or even a tap tempo button. When I have to use an Si desk, I usually stay at the desk after walking the room with the app to tweak.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 24, 2018, 12:28:53 pm
Here's my occasional call for all Soundcraft SI users to ask Dave at Dev-Core to develop a Mix Station version for us!
I'd pay $100 for it.  I'm happy to pay more than $10 for a tool that took a jillion hours of development, and help me make a living.
The UI app is so useful, it reminds me how awful ViSi is.
SC hasn't even updated their firmware for a year or two.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Dave Pluke on September 24, 2018, 12:55:03 pm
The UI app is so useful, it reminds me how awful ViSi is.

+1

I'd hoped the acquisition of the Ui line would have a (positive) domino effect on the Si/Vi software.  No such luck  :( .

Dave
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Gary Weller on September 24, 2018, 01:51:17 pm
Here's my occasional call for all Soundcraft SI users to ask Dave at Dev-Core to develop a Mix Station version for us!
I'd pay $100 for it.  I'm happy to pay more than $10 for a tool that took a jillion hours of development, and help me make a living.
The UI app is so useful, it reminds me how awful ViSi is.
SC hasn't even updated their firmware for a year or two.

I requested that when he had a poll on which new desk to make an app for about a year ago, guess there wasn't enough requests for it.

While I don't own an Si desk, the band I mix for does so I use theirs instead of bringing out my desk.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mal Brown on September 24, 2018, 06:52:27 pm
not really sure why the SI Expression desk and app are here but whatever... I own a 1 and a 3 and mini stage box.  Love the desks, hate the app.  Which has nothing to do with the rest of this thread.   

I really donít see how maintaing 2 source code libraries make a product less expensive, easier/faster to maintain.  Written by a subcontractor or not.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on September 24, 2018, 08:14:14 pm

I really donít see how maintaing 2 source code libraries make a product less expensive, easier/faster to maintain.  Written by a subcontractor or not.

Who cares if there is 1, 2 or even 10 program interfaces ?  OEM's or 3rd party's? 
All I care is that at least one of them works the way I like....and really, the more choices the better.
Thank goodness when a platform is in circulation enough to draw 3rd party developer's programs, especially when OEM interfaces come up short.
Plus, Who's going to bother to maintain interfaces they don't use?...
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 24, 2018, 10:43:10 pm
Who cares if there is 1, 2 or even 10 program interfaces ?  OEM's or 3rd party's? 
All I care is that at least one of them works the way I like....and really, the more choices the better.
Thank goodness when a platform is in circulation enough to draw 3rd party developer's programs, especially when OEM interfaces come up short.
Plus, Who's going to bother to maintain interfaces they don't use?...

I am tossed between the simplicity of the IOS x32 interface and the customized layers of the MSP/Android app for x/m32.  I have seen almost all the apps and to me it is well known and very stable.

Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mal Brown on September 25, 2018, 11:11:28 am
Who cares if there is 1, 2 or even 10 program interfaces ?  OEM's or 3rd party's? 
All I care is that at least one of them works the way I like....and really, the more choices the better.
Thank goodness when a platform is in circulation enough to draw 3rd party developer's programs, especially when OEM interfaces come up short.
Plus, Who's going to bother to maintain interfaces they don't use?...

My point is to the manufacturer, not the end user.  For the manf, it is more expensive to maintain separate source code trees ( required when supporting multiple OSís) than a single.  That necessarily spreads your development resources out.  Some development is focused on new features but some is focused simply on changes in the OS so your device isnít stranded in one release of the OS or another...  so the app approach comes along with non-feature related development that has to be done- which adds no real value to the end user, other than device compatibility.

The beauty of Soundcraftís approach is a single source code base is supporting many multiple devices and OSís.  All you need is html 5 browser support...   That letís SC be more responsive to the end users feature requests - which on the UI 24 they have been to date... from a software development and Product Management point of view itís brilliant

I also hoped that Danny Olesh and his development team would be able to work on the ViSI app and whip into shape.  For the most part all we use it for is ringing out monitors and roughing in monitor mixes. I personally would take the SI boards out more often if that app was better as I like mixing on glass and wandering... doubtful that Samsung/Harmon will allow that to happen.  Also doubtful that the shortcomings of the UI 12 and 16 boards will be addressed.  Those were purchased by SC and while the 24 has some physical similarities, under the hood itís a completely new box from my understanding.  Hard to see and ROI for them there.  They bought the concept and ran with it...

Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Jay Marr on September 25, 2018, 11:16:45 am
I am tossed between the simplicity of the IOS x32 interface and the customized layers of the IOS app for x/m32.  I have seen almost all the apps and to me it is well known and very stable.

This caught my eye.  Are there customizable layers in the IOS app for X32?  (hoping that is the case and I have just never recognized that feature)
Or did you mean the Android app?
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 25, 2018, 11:27:26 am
My point is to the manufacturer, not the end user.  For the manf, it is more expensive to maintain separate source code trees ( required when supporting multiple OSís) than a single.  That necessarily spreads your development resources out.  Some development is focused on new features but some is focused simply on changes in the OS so your device isnít stranded in one release of the OS or another...  so the app approach comes along with non-feature related development that has to be done- which adds no real value to the end user, other than device compatibility.

The beauty of Soundcraftís approach is a single source code base is supporting many multiple devices and OSís.  All you need is html 5 browser support...   That letís SC be more responsive to the end users feature requests - which on the UI 24 they have been to date... from a software development and Product Management point of view itís brilliant

I also hoped that Danny Olesh and his development team would be able to work on the ViSI app and whip into shape.  For the most part all we use it for is ringing out monitors and roughing in monitor mixes. I personally would take the SI boards out more often if that app was better as I like mixing on glass and wandering... doubtful that Samsung/Harmon will allow that to happen.  Also doubtful that the shortcomings of the UI 12 and 16 boards will be addressed.  Those were purchased by SC and while the 24 has some physical similarities, under the hood itís a completely new box from my understanding.  Hard to see and ROI for them there.  They bought the concept and ran with it...

Behringer does not maintain the source code for Mixing Station, it's the property of David G.  They have licensed some code from him for us in their own apps, IIRC, but they neither own nor maintain it.

What's up with the push back, Mal?  I agree that manufacturers have the best opportunity to write apps to control their products but we can see that for whatever reasons, almost EVERY SINGLE MANUFACTURER does a pretty lousy job of it.

I'm happy David G wrote mixing station and continues to improve it.  The twits at Soundcraft, Avid and other big-gun manufacturers are inexplicable in their failure to write effective control apps or, in the case of Avid, write them at all.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Scott Holtzman on September 25, 2018, 11:51:24 am
This caught my eye.  Are there customizable layers in the IOS app for X32?  (hoping that is the case and I have just never recognized that feature)
Or did you mean the Android app?

Yes, late night typo fixed.


Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Steve Garris on September 25, 2018, 03:23:47 pm
Those were purchased by SC and while the 24 has some physical similarities, under the hood itís a completely new box from my understanding. 

Can you elaborate on that for me? I recall reading something about this a year ago on these forums, but I couldn't find it in a search.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Chuck Simon on September 26, 2018, 08:27:49 am
You can't access the FX controls or even a tap tempo button. When I have to use an Si desk, I usually stay at the desk after walking the room with the app to tweak.

Damn, they haven't improved that?  That is one of the main reasons I still use my Presonus RM16 more than my Impact.  I was hoping the UI 24 might be a good choice for more channels than the Presonus, but I don't know.....
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Tom Burgess on September 26, 2018, 11:56:33 am
Can you elaborate on that for me? I recall reading something about this a year ago on these forums, but I couldn't find it in a search.
Harman purchased the Ui series / concept from an Aussie company called SM Pro Audio.

http://www.smproaudio.com/index.php/en/

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1062989-REG/sm_pro_audio_umix_16_digital_mixer.html

Title: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Scott Olewiler on September 26, 2018, 06:04:32 pm
I have been playing with the UIR24 interface for over an hour. I like it but is there no way to delay the L/R outputs?  I see how to delay the aux outputs but if there's no way to delay the mains back to the back line I don't want it.

EDIT- Nevermind a little RTFM solved it.

Seriously considering replacing my 5 year old dl1608 now.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Michael Lascuola on September 27, 2018, 12:01:35 am

On a slight tangent, what has been the group's experience with ordering "open box", "customer returned" or "reconditioned" products from PSSL? 
6 months ago I ordered a refurb Mackie DC16 Control Surface (Axis) from PSSL, and it has worked out really well for me.  The Dante connection has saved me more than once this summer in congested areas where the Wi-Fi was almost unusable.

For those of you who have used both the Soundcraft and Master Fader on a DL32R, how does the Soundcraft app compare?  I'm quite happy with Master Fader, but for comparison, have only used the XR-18 app, which I feel is less mature.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mal Brown on September 27, 2018, 12:39:23 am
Behringer does not maintain the source code for Mixing Station, it's the property of David G.  They have licensed some code from him for us in their own apps, IIRC, but they neither own nor maintain it.

What's up with the push back, Mal?  I agree that manufacturers have the best opportunity to write apps to control their products but we can see that for whatever reasons, almost EVERY SINGLE MANUFACTURER does a pretty lousy job of it.

I'm happy David G wrote mixing station and continues to improve it.  The twits at Soundcraft, Avid and other big-gun manufacturers are inexplicable in their failure to write effective control apps or, in the case of Avid, write them at all.

Tim, the deal for me is that for the Ui-24,Soundcraft has basically hit it out of the park.  Ok, they bought the concept... but they leveraged the great software concept with Scís undeniable sound quality in hardware.  Then they got out of the way and Ltd Danny Olesh and team execute.  And execute they have... Do I wish they could permute the ui software to my investment is SI... oh man...

(My SI 3 is on Reverb...)

So my day gig is software.  Has been since the early 80ís.  Iíve been the equity stake, product manager, project manager, Support Manager, implementation guy and at times coder...  Soundcraftís approach to this generation is truly next level design.  It was a smart buy...  not getting in the way of innovation ?  Even smarter...

If you want a look at what I do today. Hit YouTube and check out the Insitu ScanEagle...  I guarantee it will be entertaining...
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mal Brown on September 27, 2018, 12:46:49 am
6 months ago I ordered a refurb Mackie DC16 Control Surface (Axis) from PSSL, and it has worked out really well for me.  The Dante connection has saved me more than once this summer in congested areas where the Wi-Fi was almost unusable.

For those of you who have used both the Soundcraft and Master Fader on a DL32R, how does the Soundcraft app compare?  I'm quite happy with Master Fader, but for comparison, have only used the XR-18 app, which I feel is less mature.

Master Fader is my second favorite control app...  A browser connected to UI -24 is First...  a ton more power.  I sold my dL-1608 about a year ago so Iím out of touch...
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Frank Koenig on September 27, 2018, 01:30:41 am
If you want a look at what I do today. Hit YouTube and check out the Insitu ScanEagle...  I guarantee it will be entertaining...

Insitu! Holy crap. I hung out with those guys when they were developing their first UAS here in Menlo Park (adjacent to Palo Alto, where I still am) before they moved to Hood River, and long before they sold to Boeing. Must have been mid '90s. That led to my doing a control systems gig at Abe Karem's Frontier Systems, which, oddly, led to doing the motorized faders on Digidesign's (now Avid's) first live sound board. I'm still in touch with one of the original Insitu guys, Siggy. Small world stuff. Apologies. --Frank
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Marc Sibilia on September 27, 2018, 02:22:36 am
Insitu! Holy crap. ... I'm still in touch with one of the original Insitu guys, Siggy. Small world stuff. Apologies. --Frank
Double small world.  I worked with Siggy at Aurora, and Tad McGeer and I had the same adviser in grad school. 

More on topic, I am finding the interface on the Ui24R very intuitive (I haven't read the manual yet.  Only question I have is whether mine has something other than the default admin password, because I can't seem to get into the network setup yet.  I may have to do a hard reset.

Marc
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Tim Hite on September 27, 2018, 03:45:24 am
Default admin credentials are:

UN: admin
PW: admin

That didn't work on mine so I did a network reset and it went back to default. Didn't need to do the full reset with the USB stick trick. . .



Double small world.  I worked with Siggy at Aurora, and Tad McGeer and I had the same adviser in grad school. 

More on topic, I am finding the interface on the Ui24R very intuitive (I haven't read the manual yet.  Only question I have is whether mine has something other than the default admin password, because I can't seem to get into the network setup yet.  I may have to do a hard reset.

Marc
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Alec Spence on September 27, 2018, 09:26:17 am
For those of you who have used both the Soundcraft and Master Fader on a DL32R, how does the Soundcraft app compare?  I'm quite happy with Master Fader, but for comparison, have only used the XR-18 app, which I feel is less mature.
Remember, the XR18 has different apps for different platforms, each with completely different interfaces.  The Windows and Android apps are superb and very functional, the iPad app rather less so.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Roy Curet on September 27, 2018, 01:44:41 pm
I'm thinking about a UI24. Has anyone used one with a large touch screen connected by HDMI?
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mal Brown on September 27, 2018, 02:09:06 pm
I'm thinking about a UI24. Has anyone used one with a large touch screen connected by HDMI?

Folks in the Facebook group do it.  When I was looking at hdmi touch screens, a win 10 AMD based Dell All in One was basically $100 to $150 more.  I did that.  I like it a lot.  The direct connected hdmi is lower resolution and doesnít support all the display modes as a result.  Which for many uses is probably fine.  I wanted higher resolution and more open browsers though.

For sound co dates I have the Dell tethered via a 100í cat5 cable at FOH.  On band dates, I typically just use the iPad as Iím playing bass- same display as you would have on the hdmi touch screen.

I play mostly small rooms and when itís larger I have one of my FOH guys mix so I can focus on playing and singing and frankly enjoying the large stage experience, revenue be damned ;-)

So depending on your usage, you could be a happy camper with either approach.
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mal Brown on September 27, 2018, 02:31:37 pm
Frank and Marc- How about that.  Thereís a few of the old timers (Hood River old timers that is) still around.  Tadís house burned in a fire a few years back.  He lived about a mile up the hill.  Wind in a different direction it would have been mine...   He rebuilt and I believe it is the property of his ex now...  we donít travel in the same circles.  So neighborhood set is all I hear.  Reference John Prine ď In a town this sizeĒ ;-)
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Tim Hite on September 27, 2018, 02:41:17 pm
With an iPad there is a way to add the UI page to your home screen and make it full screen on your tablet. I am much happier now that I have done that and can launch the UI software like an app from my home screen.

Open ui.io in IOS Safari
Select share from the upper right menu
Select 'add to home screen'

and you're done.

There's also a way to do it on android, but I didn't read that one.

I'm thinking about a UI24. Has anyone used one with a large touch screen connected by HDMI?
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Frank Koenig on September 27, 2018, 07:20:28 pm
Frank and Marc- How about that.  Thereís a few of the old timers (Hood River old timers that is) still around.  Tadís house burned in a fire a few years back.  He lived about a mile up the hill.  Wind in a different direction it would have been mine...   He rebuilt and I believe it is the property of his ex now...  we donít travel in the same circles.  So neighborhood set is all I hear.  Reference John Prine ď In a town this sizeĒ ;-)

I think I saw the effects of that fire when I drove up the Columbia Gorge last January. I'm sure Tad had some interesting historical items related to Insitu and other projects and hope that not too much was lost. Here I recall it was Siggy, Mimi, Guppy, Amy, the dog (whose name also ended in "y"), and Tad. I lost track of Guppy, but always expect to see him pop up in Aviation Week. Tad certainly has. Pretty amazing group of folks, and I was so fortunate to get to know them for a while. Thanks for jogging the memories. Back to the regular scheduled programming. --Frank
Title: Re: My shootout: behringer XR18 vs soundcraft Ui24R vs Allen & Heath QU-SB
Post by: Mal Brown on September 28, 2018, 02:56:27 am
What you saw was the results of the Eagle Creek Fire.  That happened about a year ago and was some scary stuff.  Then Santa Rosa happened and what we had felt like small potatos...   the fire that took Tadís place was a few years back.  I have some pretty good video of a bold max pilot,working it... there are old pilots, bold pilots but no old bold pilots...  the kmax guys are a breed apart... crazy mofo!