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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Nick Martini on August 31, 2018, 04:37:15 pm

Title: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on August 31, 2018, 04:37:15 pm
Hello everyone, I'm a complete newbie when it comes to audio. With that being said I made the mistake of purchasing this system.

2) Rockville RSG12.28 Dual 12 2000W PA Speakers+Rockville RPA9 DJ Amplifier Amp https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XFRNRS2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_VxAIBbGY7WE26

The system is trash and through testing I found that on the loudest setting it reached a max dB of 85 and an average of 70dB. I'm going to return this system.

I need help choosing something else. I'm looking to spend around $500 and am looking for loudness more than sound quality. Preferably something that can easily hit 100dB and averages around 85dB or even louder is fine. You can always turn down the music. As I said I'm a complete newbie and know little to nothing. I am open to all suggestions.

Thank you in advance,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Roland Clarke on August 31, 2018, 04:40:41 pm
Usual message, you need to go back and change your user name to your real name.

Quick helper, you need a little more budget.  A couple of Altos are the cheapest, decent gear in speakers that I would recommend and $500 wonít stretch to those.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on August 31, 2018, 04:59:35 pm
Usual message, you need to go back and change your user name to your real name.

Quick helper, you need a little more budget.  A couple of Altos are the cheapest, decent gear in speakers that I would recommend and $500 wonít stretch to those.

Hi Ronald, sorry about that; wasn't aware of the name rules. I should be able to get something louder than that for $500, no?  I mean heck my Aiwa exos 9 is louder than that dang system and that's portable and only $300.

Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Jeremy Young on August 31, 2018, 05:55:22 pm
Hi Nick, what is your intended use for the speakers?  Home theatre?  Live music?  Recorded music playback?  Stage Monitors?  Studio Monitors?  Rehearsal spaces?  Tailgate parties?  What sort of spaces are you using them in?  Is this part of a staged purchase for a larger system or a one-off solution?  Do you own any other related gear?

Other than loud and <$500, anything else on the wish-list (like they need to be able to be lifted on a tripod by one person, need to be powered, etc)?  Give us a little more info on what you're trying to achieve, and you might get some more help from the vast experience on these forums.

For what it's worth, a decibel rating (single number like "100dB") without any other information isn't very specific.  At what distance?  At what frequency?  At what speed and weighting?  What did you use to verify the performance of your original purchase? 
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on August 31, 2018, 06:14:29 pm
Hi Nick, what is your intended use for the speakers?  Home theatre?  Live music?  Recorded music playback?  Stage Monitors?  Studio Monitors?  Rehearsal spaces?  Tailgate parties?  What sort of spaces are you using them in?  Is this part of a staged purchase for a larger system or a one-off solution?  Do you own any other related gear?

Other than loud and <$500, anything else on the wish-list (like they need to be able to be lifted on a tripod by one person, need to be powered, etc)?  Give us a little more info on what you're trying to achieve, and you might get some more help from the vast experience on these forums.

For what it's worth, a decibel rating (single number like "100dB") without any other information isn't very specific.  At what distance?  At what frequency?  At what speed and weighting?  What did you use to verify the performance of your original purchase?

Hi Jeremy, thanks for the detailed reply. I will be using this system for a fairly large gym around 30x30 I plan on putting the speaker(s) in the corner(s) and leaving them there basically permanently. Once or twice a year may move them for an outside party. It could be a one-off system or an upgradable system whatever people think would be best.

I don't have too many requests beside I want it to be loud. There's times where 10 people are in the gym being loud. I would like to stick around $500 for now. Sorry but I really don't know much about what's a "good" frequency, spped or weight. I used a generic dB meter. Had it about 24 inches from the system and averaged 70dB with multiple tests.

Thank you,
 Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Jeremy Young on August 31, 2018, 07:00:19 pm
Thanks Nick. 


Your dB meter should have different settings for dB(A) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting) or dB(C) weightings, at the very least.  That's what I was referring to. 


For speed, I meant whether that was a peak measurement or a "slow" (averaged) measurement.  Peak readings will be much higher than slow readings even in the same environment.  These should be switches or buttons on your decibel meter.


Just trying to wrap my head around how loud that box actually is and what you need.  The inverse square law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law) dictates that in a space without acoustic reflections, your dB level will drop by 6dB per doubling of distance.  Most manufacturers rate their products based on a "peak" rating at 1-meter so that prospective users can extrapolate that information into usable information for their application.  So if you need something that's 80dB at 8 meters, it would need to be 98dB at 1 meter or greater.

This gym... is measures 30x30 of what unit of measure?  I don't know where you are, so I don't know whether that's feet or meters or...  "fairly large" could mean different things to different folks here.  There are people here who design and install speaker systems for some of the largest stadiums in the world.

Is this the type of gym where people exercise, or is it a dance class or a gym in a school?  I'm still unclear about what you'er using it for.  Spoken word with a microphone?  Background music?  Music for a dance class?   


The best way to treat these forums is to be as specific as possible.  Assume your reader knows absolutely nothing about who you are, where you're from, and what you call a "gym".  There are members here from every corner of the earth with a huge variety of experience present; terminology can get confusing very quickly. 


If it's for music, you probably want something with some low-end response if it's intended to pump up a sports team during a break.  If it's for spoken word announcements, that would be less of a requirement but in a highly reflective space you might want something with better pattern control. As I'm sure you've noticed there are a huge range of products on the market that we need to start scaling down to find one for your application and budget.


I'd stick to a powered speaker.  It'll make for a more "plug-and-play" experience given your level of understanding.

Off the top of my head, within their price point the EV ZLX series speakers offer a pretty good performance/price ratio in your budget range.  The ZLX-12P (https://www.electrovoice.com/product.php?id=2583) goes for $499 CAD new in most music stores (https://www.avshop.ca/sound-amp-pa-audio/speakers/powered-speakers/electro-voice-zlx-12p-12in-powered-speaker), but I'm assuming your $500 budget is in Canadian Dollars (because I'm from Canada).  EV is a reputable company in the audio world, more so than whoever the heck "Rockville" is.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on August 31, 2018, 07:19:42 pm
Thanks Nick. 


Your dB meter should have different settings for dB(A) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting) or dB(C) weightings, at the very least.  That's what I was referring to. 


For speed, I meant whether that was a peak measurement or a "slow" (averaged) measurement.  Peak readings will be much higher than slow readings even in the same environment.  These should be switches or buttons on your decibel meter.


Just trying to wrap my head around how loud that box actually is and what you need.  The inverse square law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse-square_law) dictates that in a space without acoustic reflections, your dB level will drop by 6dB per doubling of distance.  Most manufacturers rate their products based on a "peak" rating at 1-meter so that prospective users can extrapolate that information into usable information for their application.  So if you need something that's 80dB at 8 meters, it would need to be 98dB at 1 meter or greater.

This gym... is measures 30x30 of what unit of measure?  I don't know where you are, so I don't know whether that's feet or meters or...  "fairly large" could mean different things to different folks here.  There are people here who design and install speaker systems for some of the largest stadiums in the world.

Is this the type of gym where people exercise, or is it a dance class or a gym in a school?  I'm still unclear about what you'er using it for.  Spoken word with a microphone?  Background music?  Music for a dance class?   


The best way to treat these forums is to be as specific as possible.  Assume your reader knows absolutely nothing about who you are, where you're from, and what you call a "gym".  There are members here from every corner of the earth with a huge variety of experience present; terminology can get confusing very quickly. 


If it's for music, you probably want something with some low-end response if it's intended to pump up a sports team during a break.  If it's for spoken word announcements, that would be less of a requirement but in a highly reflective space you might want something with better pattern control. As I'm sure you've noticed there are a huge range of products on the market that we need to start scaling down to find one for your application and budget.


I'd stick to a powered speaker.  It'll make for a more "plug-and-play" experience given your level of understanding.

Off the top of my head, within their price point the EV ZLX series speakers offer a pretty good performance/price ratio in your budget range.  The ZLX-12P (https://www.electrovoice.com/product.php?id=2583) goes for $499 CAD new in most music stores (https://www.avshop.ca/sound-amp-pa-audio/speakers/powered-speakers/electro-voice-zlx-12p-12in-powered-speaker), but I'm assuming your $500 budget is in Canadian Dollars (because I'm from Canada).  EV is a reputable company in the audio world, more so than whoever the heck "Rockville" is.

Hi Jeremy, thanks again for the response. The measurement I gathered was based off of dB(A) and a slow or average measurement. Idk if you ever have used a JBL charge 3, but their max volumes are similar.

Sorry should of explained better it is around 30feet x 30feet. It is a weight lifting gym, the people that workout here love to have the music blasting. We all used to workout at a gym that had a $10,000 Bose system that would literally shake things off the wall.

I'd love to be able to hook my phone or tablet up to the speaker and blast music to keep people pumped up during their workout. Everyone that comes here typically listens to rap so some bass would be nice, but isn't a requirement.

I'm located in Massachusetts so I will be US currency. Sorry I haven't been more specific I'm fairly ignorant around this subject.

Thanks ,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Jeremy Young on August 31, 2018, 07:52:49 pm
Hi Nick.  Thanks for all the clarifications.  Fortunately for you, given the currency your budget just increased by about 30%, haha.

Most of my experience is with products that are outside your budget (sorry) but also have much stricter requirements for sound quality or projection over distance. 

I'll echo what I said before and suggest looking to one of the more "pro" brands (JBL, Yamaha, EV, Yorkville, QSC, etc) and consider one of their entry level active speakers.  The ZLX-12P from EV that I mentioned earlier would be right at home in the application you describe, but they are around $400 USD each from what I can find online.  That said, even without a subwoofer I think you'd be pretty pleased with the low-end. They also make a version with a 15" woofer which extends a little lower in response, but just one of them would eat up your budget.  These are relatively light weight so hauling them out to a party will still be possible. They make wall-brackets for them, or you can just put it on a speaker tripod.  They have a 90-degree nominal horizontal coverage pattern which would work well in your corner application. Plus having the speaker in the corner will help increase the low-frequency performance.  If you like it and decide you need some more low-end later down the road, you could add a subwoofer from that lineup easily enough.


In such a small space, you may not need two speakers.  One might give you enough coverage, and enable you to get something that lasts a little longer and takes up less floor space (tripod legs) than two speakers for your budget.

Is there anywhere in your area that will let you rent something for a day and try it out in the space?  It's a cheap way to find out if it'll work for you, and what it's like to move it into place etc.  That is, cheaper than spending money on something that you now can't use.

There's no free lunch, so expecting $10k system performance from a $500 rig just won't happen.  Hopefully some others with more experience in this end of the pool can chime in now that we've got a better idea of your needs.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Scott Bolt on August 31, 2018, 07:58:30 pm
One of these would be best:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-DXR15-15-Active-Speaker/202418893678?epid=593001743&hash=item2f211b336e:g:O3IAAOSwumFbhleZ:sc:ShippingMethodExpress!48165!US!-1

A little less bass and smaller:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-DXR12-12-Active-Loud-Speaker/173461590216?epid=2254427161&hash=item28631dd0c8:g:NmMAAOSwsndbbM5m:sc:ShippingMethodExpress!48165!US!-1

You won't need 2 for that room.

These will get WAY louder than 10 of the ones you had, and will sound better doing it.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on August 31, 2018, 08:11:30 pm
Hi Nick.  Thanks for all the clarifications.  Fortunately for you, given the currency your budget just increased by about 30%, haha.

Most of my experience is with products that are outside your budget (sorry) but also have much stricter requirements for sound quality or projection over distance. 

I'll echo what I said before and suggest looking to one of the more "pro" brands (JBL, Yamaha, EV, Yorkville, QSC, etc) and consider one of their entry level active speakers.  The ZLX-12P from EV that I mentioned earlier would be right at home in the application you describe, but they are around $400 USD each from what I can find online.  That said, even without a subwoofer I think you'd be pretty pleased with the low-end. They also make a version with a 15" woofer which extends a little lower in response, but just one of them would eat up your budget.  These are relatively light weight so hauling them out to a party will still be possible. They make wall-brackets for them, or you can just put it on a speaker tripod.  They have a 90-degree nominal horizontal coverage pattern which would work well in your corner application. Plus having the speaker in the corner will help increase the low-frequency performance.  If you like it and decide you need some more low-end later down the road, you could add a subwoofer from that lineup easily enough.


In such a small space, you may not need two speakers.  One might give you enough coverage, and enable you to get something that lasts a little longer and takes up less floor space (tripod legs) than two speakers for your budget.

Is there anywhere in your area that will let you rent something for a day and try it out in the space?  It's a cheap way to find out if it'll work for you, and what it's like to move it into place etc.  That is, cheaper than spending money on something that you now can't use.

There's no free lunch, so expecting $10k system performance from a $500 rig just won't happen.  Hopefully some others with more experience in this end of the pool can chime in now that we've got a better idea of your needs.

Hi Jeremy,

Thanks for the detail responses; I truly appreciate the time you've taken to help me out. I wish I had more to spend , but I think something around $500 will do for now. Maybe I'll start out with one of EV 15" speakers and get another one a little further down the line.

Are you talking about the ZLX-15p? I have a guitar center near me. Not sure if they have have some sort of renting option or not. Would love to get my hands on one of these to see how they perform. Maybe some day I'll have $10k to throw into a Bose system haha.

With my price point and the specs I'm looking for you'd say a stand alone pa speaking from a high rep company would be my best bet?

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Steve Loewenthal on August 31, 2018, 08:22:47 pm
1 used QSC HPR 1521i
More than enough to be this space.
Also fits your budget.
Link below is 1 example.
https://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/QSC/HPR152i-Powered-Monitor-114175605.gc
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on August 31, 2018, 08:26:46 pm
One of these would be best:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-DXR15-15-Active-Speaker/202418893678?epid=593001743&hash=item2f211b336e:g:O3IAAOSwumFbhleZ:sc:ShippingMethodExpress!48165!US!-1

A little less bass and smaller:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-DXR12-12-Active-Loud-Speaker/173461590216?epid=2254427161&hash=item28631dd0c8:g:NmMAAOSwsndbbM5m:sc:ShippingMethodExpress!48165!US!-1

You won't need 2 for that room.

These will get WAY louder than 10 of the ones you had, and will sound better doing it.

Hi Scott,

Thanks a lot for the reply I will definitely look into both of these speakers. Looks like the Yamaha may be a little expensive at the moment. Could save a little more for them.

Thanks,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on August 31, 2018, 08:29:18 pm
1 used QSC HPR 1521i
More than enough to be this space.
Also fits your budget.
Link below is 1 example.
https://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/QSC/HPR152i-Powered-Monitor-114175605.gc



Hi Steve ,

Thanks a lot for the reply. Looks like an awesome speaker. I'll have to go to my local guitar center and see if they have one in stock.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Steve Loewenthal on August 31, 2018, 08:35:01 pm
I'll have to go to my local guitar center and see if they have one in stock.

Unlikely you will find one of these in stock at your local GC. This is a used speaker.  Unlikely that you will find them new anywhere. They were replaced by a newer model from QSC. 10 years ago these speakers were considered entry level at the professional level. There may still be a few rental companies that have these in their inventory, but by now, most have replaced them with newer things.
 
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Jeremy Young on August 31, 2018, 08:36:29 pm
Hey nick, just a random thought.  How did you hook up your music to the amp that came with your underwhelming speakers? Depending on the sensitivity of the amp, you may not have had a strong enough signal to drive it to full power.  A couple new cables or a preamp would be a lot cheaper than a whole new speaker.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Jeff Lelko on August 31, 2018, 08:38:26 pm
Looks like an awesome speaker. I'll have to go to my local guitar center and see if they have one in stock.

Hi Nick.  I still use an inventory of QSC HPR152i and 122i speakers on the majority of my jobs.  Theyíre definitely good speakers, but also 10 years old give or take.  Not that this is inherently bad, but just something to keep in mind.  The HPR152i also weighs 100 pounds. 

The question you ask is very common here - youíll be best served by either determining what it is you actually need and fit your budget to it, rent what you need until you can afford to own it, or settle with the very cheap products you can buy at the local music shop and live within the limits that they have.  Best of luck though!
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on August 31, 2018, 09:14:59 pm
Unlikely you will find one of these in stock at your local GC. This is a used speaker.  Unlikely that you will find them new anywhere. They were replaced by a newer model from QSC. 10 years ago these speakers were considered entry level at the professional level. There may still be a few rental companies that have these in their inventory, but by now, most have replaced them with newer things.

Oh okay, I'll check out some of the reviews online to see how I feel about the speaker and make a decision from there. Thank you for giving me that option.

Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on August 31, 2018, 09:19:14 pm
Hey nick, just a random thought.  How did you hook up your music to the amp that came with your underwhelming speakers? Depending on the sensitivity of the amp, you may not have had a strong enough signal to drive it to full power.  A couple new cables or a preamp would be a lot cheaper than a whole new speaker.

Hi Jeremy,

So I have some live wire elite speakon to speakon cables going from channel a to the speaker and then from channel b to the speaker. Have the amp set on stereo mode and have the loudest dB setting on the amp. I wonder if the amp isn't powerful enough.

Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on August 31, 2018, 09:24:55 pm
Hi Nick.  I still use an inventory of QSC HPR152i and 122i speakers on the majority of my jobs.  Theyíre definitely good speakers, but also 10 years old give or take.  Not that this is inherently bad, but just something to keep in mind.  The HPR152i also weighs 100 pounds. 

The question you ask is very common here - youíll be best served by either determining what it is you actually need and fit your budget to it, rent what you need until you can afford to own it, or settle with the very cheap products you can buy at the local music shop and live within the limits that they have.  Best of luck though!

Hi Jeff,

Thank you for the reply. I don't really mind that the speaker are around 10 years old. Some of the older stuff is made better ( well made not with Audio equipment, I'm thinking more on the automotive side) . Thanks for the tips though.

Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Stephen Kirby on August 31, 2018, 09:57:42 pm
Hi Jeremy,

So I have some live wire elite speakon to speakon cables going from channel a to the speaker and then from channel b to the speaker. Have the amp set on stereo mode and have the loudest dB setting on the amp. I wonder if the amp isn't powerful enough.

Nick
That explains how passive speakers are connected, and that is correct.

What are you using for the source?  Phone or iPod?  DJ mixer?  How much output comes from the source and the sensitivity of the amplifier will play a large part in how loud it goes and was the basis of the question.

Most of the better mid-range powered speakers like the Yamahas will have a pair of RCA jacks that would let you directly connect a phone or iPod.  Most basic stereo power amplifiers as found in a PA need a signal level boost from a phone to deliver full level.

You probably don't need stereo for this application.  In fact music mixed with things to one side or the other won't sound as good to the people nearby.  Given the noise floor of a gym, weights and machines clanking, and the probable desire for energy in the form of pumping bass, I would look into the best powered 15" two way from a name brand that you can afford.

BTW, Bose is not a name brand.  Most sound professionals consider them to be overprice and poorly performing.  As mentioned the low end would be Alto progressing up though the lower level EVs like the ZLX, the Yamahas and then off beyond your price range.

Rather than the local Guitar Center, which will try very hard to sell you whatever they have in stock, where are you located?  Many folks on this forum are also representatives or dealers and one in your region can probably get you a better deal on something better suited to your application.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Rob Spence on August 31, 2018, 11:08:46 pm
I have DXR10s and am in MA.

They have 3 inputs on the back. 2 are stereo.
I run my phone through a Radial SB-5 and into the TRS inputs. That will drive the speaker to its limits.

You might find a dealer here that can beat Guitar center.

Where in MA are you? I am near Westford.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on August 31, 2018, 11:19:36 pm
That explains how passive speakers are connected, and that is correct.

What are you using for the source?  Phone or iPod?  DJ mixer?  How much output comes from the source and the sensitivity of the amplifier will play a large part in how loud it goes and was the basis of the question.

Most of the better mid-range powered speakers like the Yamahas will have a pair of RCA jacks that would let you directly connect a phone or iPod.  Most basic stereo power amplifiers as found in a PA need a signal level boost from a phone to deliver full level.

You probably don't need stereo for this application.  In fact music mixed with things to one side or the other won't sound as good to the people nearby.  Given the noise floor of a gym, weights and machines clanking, and the probable desire for energy in the form of pumping bass, I would look into the best powered 15" two way from a name brand that you can afford.

BTW, Bose is not a name brand.  Most sound professionals consider them to be overprice and poorly performing.  As mentioned the low end would be Alto progressing up though the lower level EVs like the ZLX, the Yamahas and then off beyond your price range.

Rather than the local Guitar Center, which will try very hard to sell you whatever they have in stock, where are you located?  Many folks on this forum are also representatives or dealers and one in your region can probably get you a better deal on something better suited to your application.

Hi Stephen,

So I have a rca to Bluetooth adapter and have my phone hooked up to it. I have also used rca to aux. No matter what I can't get this system to play loud. I have an extremely base boosted song that I tried and even that wasn't loud.

The reason I have it set to stereo is because the customer service person from Rockville suggested I do that, but these guys seem to know just about as much as I do about audio (near nothing).

Good to know about the Bose. I know they're definitely overpriced, but I always thought they made top of the line products. I guess not. Good to know.

I'm from Bristol County Mass, so if anyone has any suggestions they would be highly appreciated.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on August 31, 2018, 11:22:43 pm
I have DXR10s and am in MA.

They have 3 inputs on the back. 2 are stereo.
I run my phone through a Radial SB-5 and into the TRS inputs. That will drive the speaker to its limits.

You might find a dealer here that can beat Guitar center.

Where in MA are you? I am near Westford.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Hi Rob,

Thank you for the reply. I am located in Bristol County, but am in the Westford area every now and then.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 01, 2018, 12:00:42 am
Hi Nick-

Oh are you in for a world of hurt.  At the levels your "muscle Marys" will want this to run at, an "extremely bass boosted" track will end up destroying your speakers, no matter what they are.

Preventing system destruction by end users is a lot of what makes installed sound systems - in places where you'd not think of such problems - very expensive.

A "business class hotel" I was working in had to replace all the ballroom ceiling speakers, cones partly shredded, burned voice coils, etc.  Not a run away feedback problem from a lectern mic but the *bus boys and housemen* playing hip hop from their phones.  They saw what the in-house AV company used to interface phones and laptops (a Rapco "BLOX" product) and bought one on Amazon.  They played their streaming play lists at full level, even boosting lows on their phones trying to get _car stereo_ sound.

While replacing the speakers was expensive the hotel had to pony up some big $$ to have their control & processing updated (and the Crestron stuff programmed again) to keep their lowest paid help from destroying the system *again*.

End users, in general, are not savvy and they don't care (they'll beat it like it owes them money).  They're so used to hearing lots of distortion that they don't associate it with a system on the road to destruction.  And they don't care (did I say that already?), but when it ceases to work at all, the equipment was defective because "if it wasn't meant to go louder why can I turn the knob further?"  :o

In the end you'll need a subwoofer (or 2) to take the low end load off the main loudspeaker...

But see if you can find a used Yamaha DXR15.  It has a surprising amount of low end and reasonably good protective limiting.  Defeat any bass-boosting processing on the internal amplifier (DSP & HPF both "off").  Use the RCA inputs (Input 3, IIRC) for your Bluetooth adapter and set the Input 3 knob around 12 o'clock (0dB).

Amp and speaker in one package, about 50 lbs.

Price should be $500-600.  You can get mounting brackets and suspension hardware from any Yamaha dealer, has built in speaker stand cup on the botton.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 01, 2018, 02:14:55 am
+1 for DXR15.
Ebay has several used ones from dealers for around $630 now.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Steve Loewenthal on September 01, 2018, 07:42:05 am
End users, in general, are not savvy and they don't care (they'll beat it like it owes them money).
...
In the end you'll need a subwoofer (or 2) to take the low end load off the main loudspeaker...

If you can increase the budget and also get a decent subwoofer, you can also get away with a much smaller top. 1 good sub + a DXR10 will probably do better for your application than just about any 15 inch main by itself.

Perhaps, getting only a subwoofer now and keeping your current speakers (for now) might be a better use of your money. You will need to remove the low frequencies from your main speakers once you have the sub. Most of the powered subwoofers have a built in crossover to do this. Some amplifiers also have a low cut option.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 10:07:58 am
Hi Nick-

Oh are you in for a world of hurt.  At the levels your "muscle Marys" will want this to run at, an "extremely bass boosted" track will end up destroying your speakers, no matter what they are.

Preventing system destruction by end users is a lot of what makes installed sound systems - in places where you'd not think of such problems - very expensive.

A "business class hotel" I was working in had to replace all the ballroom ceiling speakers, cones partly shredded, burned voice coils, etc.  Not a run away feedback problem from a lectern mic but the *bus boys and housemen* playing hip hop from their phones.  They saw what the in-house AV company used to interface phones and laptops (a Rapco "BLOX" product) and bought one on Amazon.  They played their streaming play lists at full level, even boosting lows on their phones trying to get _car stereo_ sound.

While replacing the speakers was expensive the hotel had to pony up some big $$ to have their control & processing updated (and the Crestron stuff programmed again) to keep their lowest paid help from destroying the system *again*.

End users, in general, are not savvy and they don't care (they'll beat it like it owes them money).  They're so used to hearing lots of distortion that they don't associate it with a system on the road to destruction.  And they don't care (did I say that already?), but when it ceases to work at all, the equipment was defective because "if it wasn't meant to go louder why can I turn the knob further?"  :o

In the end you'll need a subwoofer (or 2) to take the low end load off the main loudspeaker...

But see if you can find a used Yamaha DXR15.  It has a surprising amount of low end and reasonably good protective limiting.  Defeat any bass-boosting processing on the internal amplifier (DSP & HPF both "off").  Use the RCA inputs (Input 3, IIRC) for your Bluetooth adapter and set the Input 3 knob around 12 o'clock (0dB).

Amp and speaker in one package, about 50 lbs.

Price should be $500-600.  You can get mounting brackets and suspension hardware from any Yamaha dealer, has built in speaker stand cup on the botton.

Hi Tim,

I think you misread my post. the "extremely bass boosted" track was used to test the speakers I have now. It isn't something that I listen to on a daily basis.

Like I said I know near nothing about audio, but I'm not looking to listen to music so loud that it destroys the speaker. As I've stated the speakers I have now at their loudest point is similar to standalone bluetooth speaker. Yes, pathetic. I don't know if the amp isn't powerful enough to run the speakers or if the numbers they have listed are wrong. All I know is this company is sleezy. I was told by the manager to "turn the dB knobs up to make the sound louder" when I tried that the sound would get quieter. I then sent the amp in for RMA. Got the new amp in and same exact thing happen. When I relayed this information to the manager I was told it was the cables. I went out and bought new speakon to speakon cables, but nope that wasn't the issue. I come to find out the manager, manual, amp, and website is wrong. The dB knobs are supposed to have a - next to them and not a +.... Either something is still wrong or these speakers are complete trash.

Now I know with $500 I'm not going to get anything too impressive, but I know I can get something louder than a $200 JBL standalone speaker. I will look for a used DXR15 for now and look to get a sub a littler further down the road.

Thank you for the reply,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 10:10:12 am
+1 for DXR15.
Ebay has several used ones from dealers for around $630 now.


Hi Dave,

Thank you for the reply, it seems like a lot of people are in favor of the DXR15.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 10:12:42 am
If you can increase the budget and also get a decent subwoofer, you can also get away with a much smaller top. 1 good sub + a DXR10 will probably do better for your application than just about any 15 inch main by itself.

Perhaps, getting only a subwoofer now and keeping your current speakers (for now) might be a better use of your money. You will need to remove the low frequencies from your main speakers once you have the sub. Most of the powered subwoofers have a built in crossover to do this. Some amplifiers also have a low cut option.

Hi Steve,

That's definitely an option. I think the speakers I have now almost definitely going to be returned. If these speakers (ones I have now) have as much power as they state, they should be louder than they currently are. I think I'll most likely go with one DXR15 or maybe the DXR10 and a sub for now.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Steve Loewenthal on September 01, 2018, 10:44:27 am
If you can get your money back on the current speakers by all means do so.
In your application (in most really) you will be happier with a sub and a 10 inch top rather than a 15 inch top and no sub.

On another note, in your original post you stated you were "looking for loudness more than sound quality". While I understand your thinking, you should never exceed the limits of whatever you get, otherwise you risk blowing the speakers and end up with no sound at all. Once you start hearing distortion (ie bad sound quality) in the system, it often means you are damaging the speakers. The members of this forum are very unlikely to recommend things that have loudness with bad sound quality.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 10:53:44 am
If you can get your money back on the current speakers by all means do so.
In your application (in most really) you will be happier with a sub and a 10 inch top rather than a 15 inch top and no sub.

On another note, in your original post you stated you were "looking for loudness more than sound quality". While I understand your thinking, you should never exceed the limits of whatever you get, otherwise you risk blowing the speakers and end up with no sound at all. Once you start hearing distortion (ie bad sound quality) in the system, it often means you are damaging the speakers. The members of this forum are very unlikely to recommend things that have loudness with bad sound quality.

Hi Steve,

Yes, I can send them back, which I'm almost definitely going to do. I will look into the sub and 10 inch speaker. Thank you for your help.

Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Johannes Halvorsen on September 01, 2018, 11:10:25 am
Uhm... I think this is a case where one actually should recomend some consumer grade/hifi solution or perhaps a pair of active Behringers.

Find a pair of 10-20 year old e.g. Cervin Vega hifi-speakers with a 15" woofer and an old Peavey CS800 amp or something equivalent. Poney up 50-100 bucks for a dead simple mixer or find a used preamp in your local junkstore.

You don't HAVE to sell a tractor or a sports car when someone comes along asking for pointers on decent bicykles. ;)
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Jeff Lelko on September 01, 2018, 11:20:39 am
Uhm... I think this is a case where one actually should recomend some consumer grade/hifi solution or perhaps a pair of active Behringers.

I wouldn't disagree.  Pretty much every gym I've ever been to has gone this route, and if the coverage area in only 30x30ft this is a reasonable option.  After upgrading to my QSC HPRs mentioned further up I sold my "starter system" to a local dance studio who's been using it ever since.  It's nothing fancy but is all they need and gets the job done just fine.  Maybe you (Nick) could find someone nearby looking to do the same thing? 
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 11:37:35 am
I wouldn't disagree.  Pretty much every gym I've ever been to has gone this route, and if the coverage area in only 30x30ft this is a reasonable option.  After upgrading to my QSC HPRs mentioned further up I sold my "starter system" to a local dance studio who's been using it ever since.  It's nothing fancy but is all they need and gets the job done just fine.  Maybe you (Nick) could find someone nearby looking to do the same thing?

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the reply, I'll definitely look into some consumer grade/hifi solutions. Do you have any recommendations for my price point? I wish I knew more about this stuff, but unfortunately I don't.

Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Thomas Le on September 01, 2018, 11:45:13 am
Surprised no one mentioned the Yamaha DBR, a step lower but still good quality powered speakers. Probably pair up with a DXS12 and you got a kickin' setup if you can spring up more cash. The used route would be a pair of Yamaha S115IV or S115V on a 500w Yamaha EMX box mixer.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 11:51:37 am
Surprised no one mentioned the Yamaha DBR, a step lower but still good quality powered speakers. Probably pair up with a DXS12 and you got a kickin' setup if you can spring up more cash. The used route would be a pair of Yamaha S115IV or S115V on a 500w Yamaha EMX box mixer.

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for the reply, do you think going used would be my best place sense I'll probably get more bang for my buck?

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Jeff Lelko on September 01, 2018, 12:02:46 pm
Hi Jeff,

Thanks for the reply, I'll definitely look into some consumer grade/hifi solutions. Do you have any recommendations for my price point?

No worries.  Unfortunately I don't know that area of the industry well enough to make a strong recommendation on anything.  I've just seen plenty of gyms, studios, etc., that have a basic Walmart sound system hung up on the wall and that seems to work well enough for them.  I'm sure you could find something there that will fit your budget, probably with money left over.

Buying used can definitely get you better equipment at a good price.  As Tim mentioned though, once you start drifting into prosumer and pro-level gear, it's not user-proof out of the box.  You also kind of have to know what you're shopping for (which is more or less the point of this thread).  Since it hasn't come up yet, I'll throw in a vote for a Mackie SRM450.  You should be able to buy 1 new or a pair used for within your budget...and there's no shortage of used SRM450s looking for a buyer.  Boxes like the aforementioned Yamahas or QSC HPRs will walk all over these, but they're not bad speakers and are very cost effective.  They sound better with a sub or two, but still a better investment than a Walmart DJ system.  Good luck!
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 12:02:56 pm
If I were to get a DXR 15 and wanted to add a second one a little further down the line how would I link them?

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 12:06:04 pm
No worries.  Unfortunately I don't know that area of the industry well enough to make a strong recommendation on anything.  I've just seen plenty of gyms, studios, etc., that have a basic Walmart sound system hung up on the wall and that seems to work well enough for them.  I'm sure you could find something there that will fit your budget, probably with money left over.

Buying used can definitely get you better equipment at a good price.  As Tim mentioned though, once you start drifting into prosumer and pro-level gear, it's not user-proof out of the box.  You also kind of have to know what you're shopping for (which is more or less the point of this thread).  Since it hasn't come up yet, I'll throw in a vote for a Mackie SRM450.  You should be able to buy 1 new or a pair used for within your budget...and there's no shortage of used SRM450s looking for a buyer.  Boxes like the aforementioned Yamahas or QSC HPRs will walk all over these, but they're not bad speakers and are very cost effective.  They sound better with a sub or two, but still a better investment than a Walmart DJ system.  Good luck!

Hi Jeff,

Awesome. I think I'll probably stick to one of the PA speakers for now, with that being said I'll definitely look into the Mackie. For now I think I'll aim for a speaker or two and add a sub maybe next year.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Scott Bolt on September 01, 2018, 12:58:43 pm
If I were to get a DXR 15 and wanted to add a second one a little further down the line how would I link them?

Thank you,
Nick

If you have only 1 speaker, you would need to drive it from a mono source.  Your iphone (as an example) has a stereo output jack (head phones are 2 speakers).  You need to be able to pan the stereo signal to one side for a single speaker.

For a dual speaker setup, the stereo source will have 2 outputs.  You can easily get a cheep cable that will split the stereo jack into 2 mono jacks.  Each one goes to a speaker.

Another method is that you can run a cable from one speaker to the other and share the mono signal.

A DXR10 plus a DXS12 would indeed be a nice setup; however, I think you would have to more than double your budget to get into this system.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 01, 2018, 01:16:27 pm
If I were to get a DXR 15 and wanted to add a second one a little further down the line how would I link them?

Thank you,
Nick

You might try looking at a picture of the back of the DXR - it has an output that can be used to send the signal (mixed to mono) to another DXR or similar speaker.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 01:56:19 pm
If you have only 1 speaker, you would need to drive it from a mono source.  Your iphone (as an example) has a stereo output jack (head phones are 2 speakers).  You need to be able to pan the stereo signal to one side for a single speaker.

For a dual speaker setup, the stereo source will have 2 outputs.  You can easily get a cheep cable that will split the stereo jack into 2 mono jacks.  Each one goes to a speaker.

Another method is that you can run a cable from one speaker to the other and share the mono signal.

A DXR10 plus a DXS12 would indeed be a nice setup; however, I think you would have to more than double your budget to get into this system.

Hi Scott,

Thank you for the reply, would a mixer be necessary for a setup like this? I was just at guitar center and the guy I was speaking too was insisting that I need a mixer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see the need for a mixer for the application I'm going to use these speakers for.

I was looking into a DCR10 and a Dxs12 and doesn't look like I'll be able to afford both of those at the moment.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 01:58:41 pm
You might try looking at a picture of the back of the DXR - it has an output that can be used to send the signal (mixed to mono) to another DXR or similar speaker.

Tim,

You're real pleasant to people who don't know what they're talking about, huh? As I've said before, I know little to nothing about audio and how these speakers/systems work. That's why I'm on this forum; to get information from people like you who actually know what they're talking about.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 02:09:22 pm
This system

https://www.amazon.com/JBL-PRX425-Speakers-PRX-418S-Subwoofers/dp/B00L6JHHUU/ref=sr_1_11?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1535825067&sr=1-11&keywords=jbl+pa+speaker

is used for $500, what kind of amp would I need for something like this? Should I stay away from something like this and focus more on the powered PA speakers?

UPDATE: just looked further into this... price is way too good to be true. Has to be a scam.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 01, 2018, 02:14:47 pm
Tim,

You're real pleasant to people who don't know what they're talking about, huh? As I've said before, I know little to nothing about audio and how these speakers/systems work. That's why I'm on this forum; to get information from people like you who actually know what they're talking about.

Thank you,
Nick

Nick - Tim was being helpful and made a good suggestion to you. Check out some of the suggestions made here (google them) and take a look at the backs of the speakers. That way you get an idea of how you can connect them up.
I also would recommend a DXR15 - used to have one and they ROCK hard for their size - great low end.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Johannes Halvorsen on September 01, 2018, 02:21:39 pm
Tim,

You're real pleasant to people who don't know what they're talking about, huh? As I've said before, I know little to nothing about audio and how these speakers/systems work. That's why I'm on this forum; to get information from people like you who actually know what they're talking about.

Thank you,
Nick
Nick: Just a friendly note here... You have just asked for help on learning how to parallell park in a forum for Nascar/F1/WRC drivers. Marvel in the fact that they bother to share their knowledge with us, rather than get buthurt.

This is NOT a beginners forum, but unlike other places you usualy get solid answers here in stead of bullshit if you ask beginner questions. Suck it up and put some effort into understanding the answers you get. Tim, and others like him, is an absolute treassure trove of knowledge if you are actually here to learn. But don't expect them to treat you like a fragile child.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 02:25:59 pm
Nick - Tim was being helpful and made a good suggestion to you. Check out some of the suggestions made here (google them) and take a look at the backs of the speakers. That way you get an idea of how you can connect them up.
I also would recommend a DXR15 - used to have one and they ROCK hard for their size - great low end.

Hi Debbie,

I know Tim was being helpful, if he didn't want to be he wouldn't of posted. Maybe I'm reading his comments wrong, but that's the second post that has seemed semi snotty to me . I know you can't sense tone through a written message, but still. Thank you very much for the suggestion. Seems like almost everyone is in favor of the DXR15.

Just thinking for the future - do you think I would be better off with two DXR 15s or something like a single JBL PRX835?

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 02:28:50 pm
Nick: Just a friendly note here... You have just asked for help on learning how to parallell park in a forum for Nascar/F1/WRC drivers. Marvel in the fact that they bother to share their knowledge with us, rather than get buthurt.

This is NOT a beginners forum, but unlike other places you usualy get solid answers here in stead of bullshit if you ask beginner questions. Suck it up and put some effort into understanding the answers you get. Tim, and others like him, is an absolute treassure trove of knowledge if you are actually here to learn. But don't expect them to treat you like a fragile child.

Johannes,

I understand Tim is just sharing his knowledge, but I didn't realize that this forum wasn't exactly for beginners and I apologize for that. This forum seemed like a reliable source to ask my question. I'm sure all of you know 10x or more than I know about this subject. I appreciate the time all of you have taken to respond.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on September 01, 2018, 02:32:52 pm
If I were to get a DXR 15 and wanted to add a second one a little further down the line how would I link them?

Yamaha has this all figured out for you. On the back panel you will find a set of stereo RCA inputs where a phone or some such device can be connected, this input is summed to mono and both channels are played through the speaker when you are just using one box.. no special cables or other external devices needed. You can also connect a second speaker via the Link Out XLR connector and with the flick of a switch send it either a mono summed signal or the Right channel of your stereo source while the original speaker plays the Left channel.

(http://www.m4music.com/image/cache/data/DXR15%20C-500x500.jpg)
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 02:38:19 pm
Yamaha has this all figured out for you. On the back panel you will find a set of stereo RCA inputs where a phone or some such device can be connected, this input is summed to mono and both channels are played through the speaker when you are just using one box.. no special cables or other external devices needed. You can also connect a second speaker via the Link Out XLR connector and with the flick of a switch send it either a mono summed signal or the Right channel of your stereo source while the original speaker plays the Left channel.

(http://www.m4music.com/image/cache/data/DXR15%20C-500x500.jpg)

Hi Paul,

Thank you very much. After looking at the rear of the unit I thought that is how it worked, but the detailed response from you will definitely help for the future if end up getting this unit.

Thinking into the future - do you think I would be better off with two DXR 15s or something like a single JBL PRX835?

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 01, 2018, 02:39:44 pm
It's probably time for you to go online and look at the suggestions offered you here.

If you're paying $500 for a passive speaker, how does an amp fit into your budget?
A single decent powered speaker as noted in this thread is going to get you the best sound quality, volume , and value for your money. 

Nobody here is being snotty.  I've seen it when they are!
It's now up to you to do some work.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 02:45:10 pm
It's probably time for you to go online and look at the suggestions offered you here.

If you're paying $500 for a passive speaker, how does an amp fit into your budget?
A single decent powered speaker as noted in this thread is going to get you the best sound quality, volume , and value for your money. 

Nobody here is being snotty.  I've seen it when they are!
It's now up to you to do some work.

Hi Dave,

Well I've been doing some thinking and I could be wrong , but it seems like I may be better off waiting and doing some more saving. Not that $500 can't get me something nice, but from what I've seen $1,000 - $1,500 will most likely be a more accurate budget for what I'm looking for.

Thank you,
Nick 
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Steve Loewenthal on September 01, 2018, 03:50:39 pm
If you are willing to go to the used market, then $500 will get you real close.
Although I originally recommended a used QSC HPR 152, I am now convinced that you will be better off putting more of your budget into a subwoofer.

IMO, you would be satisfied with pretty much any of the recommendations that have been suggested thus far on this thread. All of them are orders of magnitude better than what you currently have.

Depending on what you ultimately get, you may or may not need a mixer. If you do need one, you can probably get something that will do the job for under $50. If you end up with a powered speaker that has the RCA jacks on the back, then you will (probably) not need a mixer. Once you ultimately decide what to get, post back on this thread and the members will chime in on whether a mixer will be of use.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Jeff Lelko on September 01, 2018, 03:54:49 pm
Well I've been doing some thinking and I could be wrong , but it seems like I may be better off waiting and doing some more saving. Not that $500 can't get me something nice, but from what I've seen $1,000 - $1,500 will most likely be a more accurate budget for what I'm looking for.

I wouldn't disagree with your analysis.  It just really depends on what it is you actually need and what all it needs to do.  Keep in mind that the majority of us here are working professionals that own/use/sell sound equipment (or full-up production companies) and get paid for providing good results.  That's why you're getting the suggestions you have so far.  I don't mean that in a negative or condescending way at all!  I just volunteer that information because if all you need is some basic background music at your gym, you can probably find something to work for within your budget, understanding that it might not be top quality or performance.  For what it's worth the $10,000 system you reference at the beginning of this thread is still small chips for a lot of us, Bose aside.  Flip side, I've been in some rehearsal studios for dance/performance groups you've heard of who just use a Walmart sound system or a Fender all-in-one for rehearsal backing tracks, and it obviously works out just fine for them. 

Ask yourself what level of audio capability you need, and then what you're willing to pay for it.  I think you have some good suggestions here that will work for both within your budget and for 2-3x it.  We all certainly do our best trying to give suggestions, but there's also a limit to what a forum can do.  If you're really looking to step up to a larger system but have limited knowledge on how to build/operate it, your money might be best spent by hiring someone to handle the purchase and installation for you.  That way you'll get good results with less financial risk on your part should things not go as planned.  Best of luck with the decision! 

Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Steve Loewenthal on September 01, 2018, 04:00:20 pm
I want to emphasize one more note: For this room, you only want a single speaker placed in a corner. (Others on this thread are more knowledgeable about placement than me so I may end up being corrected about this.) In any case, a single speaker (from any of the recommendations thus far) can go loud enough in a space of that size to cause serious hearing damage.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 04:20:53 pm
If you are willing to go to the used market, then $500 will get you real close.
Although I originally recommended a used QSC HPR 152, I am now convinced that you will be better off putting more of your budget into a subwoofer.

IMO, you would be satisfied with pretty much any of the recommendations that have been suggested thus far on this thread. All of them are orders of magnitude better than what you currently have.

Depending on what you ultimately get, you may or may not need a mixer. If you do need one, you can probably get something that will do the job for under $50. If you end up with a powered speaker that has the RCA jacks on the back, then you will (probably) not need a mixer. Once you ultimately decide what to get, post back on this thread and the members will chime in on whether a mixer will be of use.

Hi Steve,

I think for right now I'm going to get a single speaker and then eventually get the subwoofer. With that being said I can't decide if I should get one dxr15 now and then next year get another. Or if I should do a little more saving and get something like a JBl srx835p. Ok, wasn't sure if the mixer was needed sense there is input on the rear of these units.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 04:39:15 pm
I wouldn't disagree with your analysis.  It just really depends on what it is you actually need and what all it needs to do.  Keep in mind that the majority of us here are working professionals that own/use/sell sound equipment (or full-up production companies) and get paid for providing good results.  That's why you're getting the suggestions you have so far.  I don't mean that in a negative or condescending way at all!  I just volunteer that information because if all you need is some basic background music at your gym, you can probably find something to work for within your budget, understanding that it might not be top quality or performance.  For what it's worth the $10,000 system you reference at the beginning of this thread is still small chips for a lot of us, Bose aside.  Flip side, I've been in some rehearsal studios for dance/performance groups you've heard of who just use a Walmart sound system or a Fender all-in-one for rehearsal backing tracks, and it obviously works out just fine for them. 

Ask yourself what level of audio capability you need, and then what you're willing to pay for it.  I think you have some good suggestions here that will work for both within your budget and for 2-3x it.  We all certainly do our best trying to give suggestions, but there's also a limit to what a forum can do.  If you're really looking to step up to a larger system but have limited knowledge on how to build/operate it, your money might be best spent by hiring someone to handle the purchase and installation for you.  That way you'll get good results with less financial risk on your part should things not go as planned.  Best of luck with the decision!

Hi Jeff,

I'm sure I could do with one DXR15, but I'm the type of person that likes to have the best of the best consumer grade. I guess when I joined the forum I didn't realize that this was a pro forum. I'm glad people like yourself are helping such a noobie like myself. I'm not shocked it crazy some of the systems they have out there on the market. I guess I never realized that you could easily spend $10k for a single speaker.

Ultimately, Im looking for something that can shake that walls if need be, but I definitely won't have it that loud all the time. I'm willing to wait a year and save if that's what people suggest. I also would be fine with getting a dxr15 now and another next year. That is a good possibility, I never really thought about having a company install something for me. Maybe that would be my best bet.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 01, 2018, 05:14:43 pm
Tim,

You're real pleasant to people who don't know what they're talking about, huh? As I've said before, I know little to nothing about audio and how these speakers/systems work. That's why I'm on this forum; to get information from people like you who actually know what they're talking about.

Thank you,
Nick

Nick, I presumed you were able to do an internet search so I indicated as to what to look for.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 01, 2018, 05:21:47 pm
Hi Dave,

Well I've been doing some thinking and I could be wrong , but it seems like I may be better off waiting and doing some more saving. Not that $500 can't get me something nice, but from what I've seen $1,000 - $1,500 will most likely be a more accurate budget for what I'm looking for.

Thank you,
Nick

You've discovered that incremental growth is difficult. :)

That's why I suggested the DX15 - it can get you by for awhile and it's pretty painless to add one of Yamaha's subwoofers, adding another DX15, etc.  Yamaha did the heavy "brain" lifting for us.

That speaker gets hella loud, sounds good doing it and can survive a fair bit of abuse.  You can put one in right now and save up for the sub.

I'd not go the route of home stereo speakers unless you have a pawn shop source that sells them for $20/pair.  You'll need a continuous supply of them if your weight lifters like it as loud as cycling and other exercise styles... just sayin'.

Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 01, 2018, 08:07:42 pm
You've discovered that incremental growth is difficult. :)

That's why I suggested the DX15 - it can get you by for awhile and it's pretty painless to add one of Yamaha's subwoofers, adding another DX15, etc.  Yamaha did the heavy "brain" lifting for us.

That speaker gets hella loud, sounds good doing it and can survive a fair bit of abuse.  You can put one in right now and save up for the sub.

I'd not go the route of home stereo speakers unless you have a pawn shop source that sells them for $20/pair.  You'll need a continuous supply of them if your weight lifters like it as loud as cycling and other exercise styles... just sayin'.

Hi Tim,

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Thanks for the reply. Ok, seems like I'm pretty set on a DXR15. Unless people think it would be better to save for something like a JBL srx835p? I think no matter what I go with I'll end up adding a sub in a year or so. I think I'll stay away from the home theater systems. I've had fairly poor luck with them in the past .

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Scott Bolt on September 02, 2018, 11:52:57 am
Hi Scott,

Thank you for the reply, would a mixer be necessary for a setup like this? I was just at guitar center and the guy I was speaking too was insisting that I need a mixer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see the need for a mixer for the application I'm going to use these speakers for.

I was looking into a DCR10 and a Dxs12 and doesn't look like I'll be able to afford both of those at the moment.

Thank you,
Nick

Ok, Iím an idiot for not realizing there is a stereo input on the back of the DXR. 

You donít need a mixer.  Anyone who says so is an idiot too 😀

I am certain you will find that a single DXR15 in this space is more bottom end than any sane human being can tolerate.

Until you hear it, you canít possibly understand just how loud this thing is going to be in that room.  I would be shocked if you end up using even half of the power it is capable of
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Dennis Wiggins on September 02, 2018, 12:09:43 pm
You've discovered that incremental growth is difficult. :)

That's why I suggested the DX15 - it can get you by for awhile and it's pretty painless to add one of Yamaha's subwoofers, adding another DX15, etc.  Yamaha did the heavy "brain" lifting for us.

That speaker gets hella loud, sounds good doing it and can survive a fair bit of abuse.  You can put one in right now and save up for the sub.


If the intentions are to add a sub soon after, would starting with a DXR12 be a better option? I haven't seen any discussion of that specific model. I own DXR10s and they have their place, but I would like to read about real experiences with the 12s. 

My "bigger" setup uses Impulse 1012 (12") over a dual 18 sub and the difference in clear fullness of the midrange (more of it) is very pronounced, as is the overall perceived undistorted output level.

Should I expect the same from a DXR12?

-Dennis
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on September 02, 2018, 12:28:39 pm
If the intentions are to add a sub soon after, would starting with a DXR12 be a better option?

A 10" or 12" top with a 15" or 18" sub is a better system than a 15" fullrange box in every way, but if the customer doesn't have the $$ to buy the sub/sat system up front the the 15 fullrange is the better buy. One of these DXR15s mounted in a corner will produce very impressive "fullrange" sound, and for recorded music at least it doesn't suffer any clarity issues IMO when high passed over subs so it's still a good move with future upgrades in mind.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: George Friedman-Jimenez on September 02, 2018, 01:32:33 pm
In a 30x30 (square) room, there will be a lot of unevenness of loudness in the low frequencies. Most likely your gym is not acoustically treated so I would not get too compulsive about trying to optimize the low frequency output to a professional level with a subwoofer. I have DXR10s and a sub, but I think you will be very pleasantly surprised how nice a single DXR15 will sound for your application. Stereo would be nice for the 1 or 2 people optimally located in the room to perceive the stereo soundstage, and wasted on the rest. The redundancy of having 2 speakers in case one breaks during a show is not necessary for a gym install with a high quality speaker. Street price of the DXR15 is only a couple hundred over your $500 budget and I am guessing without actually seeing/hearing the gym space that spending double that on a DXR10 and DXS12 sub, or a used top/sub system, would only improve the sound a small amount in that room.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 02, 2018, 07:17:25 pm
Ok, Iím an idiot for not realizing there is a stereo input on the back of the DXR. 

You donít need a mixer.  Anyone who says so is an idiot too 😀

I am certain you will find that a single DXR15 in this space is more bottom end than any sane human being can tolerate.

Until you hear it, you canít possibly understand just how loud this thing is going to be in that room.  I would be shocked if you end up using even half of the power it is capable of

Hi Scott,

No worries at all, yeah I didn't think a mixer was necessary. I think I'm going to go with the single DXR15, hoping I can find one used for around $500, but I looks like I'll probably have to spend around $650. Wow seems like this thing is dang loud haha.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 02, 2018, 07:18:51 pm
If the intentions are to add a sub soon after, would starting with a DXR12 be a better option? I haven't seen any discussion of that specific model. I own DXR10s and they have their place, but I would like to read about real experiences with the 12s. 

My "bigger" setup uses Impulse 1012 (12") over a dual 18 sub and the difference in clear fullness of the midrange (more of it) is very pronounced, as is the overall perceived undistorted output level.

Should I expect the same from a DXR12?

-Dennis

Hi Dennis,

As of right now I think I'll go with a DXR15 and then add a sub next year. If I have some extra cash I may even get a sub and another DXR15 next year.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 02, 2018, 07:21:39 pm
In a 30x30 (square) room, there will be a lot of unevenness of loudness in the low frequencies. Most likely your gym is not acoustically treated so I would not get too compulsive about trying to optimize the low frequency output to a professional level with a subwoofer. I have DXR10s and a sub, but I think you will be very pleasantly surprised how nice a single DXR15 will sound for your application. Stereo would be nice for the 1 or 2 people optimally located in the room to perceive the stereo soundstage, and wasted on the rest. The redundancy of having 2 speakers in case one breaks during a show is not necessary for a gym install with a high quality speaker. Street price of the DXR15 is only a couple hundred over your $500 budget and I am guessing without actually seeing/hearing the gym space that spending double that on a DXR10 and DXS12 sub, or a used top/sub system, would only improve the sound a small amount in that room.

Hi George,

Thank you for the reply, I think I'm going to go with a single DXR15 for now. If this speaker performs as people say it will, I think It'll be fine for a year until I have the money to add a sub or another DXR15.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 02, 2018, 07:23:27 pm
A 10" or 12" top with a 15" or 18" sub is a better system than a 15" fullrange box in every way, but if the customer doesn't have the $$ to buy the sub/sat system up front the the 15 fullrange is the better buy. One of these DXR15s mounted in a corner will produce very impressive "fullrange" sound, and for recorded music at least it doesn't suffer any clarity issues IMO when high passed over subs so it's still a good move with future upgrades in mind.

Hi Paul,

If I were to get a DXR12 and a sub I think I would have to wait a decent amount of time to save. I think for right now the DXR15 is my best bet. I can always add the sub next year or maybe even a sub and another DXR15.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Stephen Kirby on September 03, 2018, 08:00:23 pm
Surprised no one mentioned the Yamaha DBR, a step lower but still good quality powered speakers. Probably pair up with a DXS12 and you got a kickin' setup if you can spring up more cash. The used route would be a pair of Yamaha S115IV or S115V on a 500w Yamaha EMX box mixer.
Catching up with this thread.  The DBR doesn't have the HF section to keep up.  I use a DBR10 over a DXS12 for a drum monitor and need to upgrade it to a DSX.  The DBR is a good reliable entry level speaker but there's no comparison to the DXS series.  Big jump up.  The DBR is like more competitive with the Altos.  Maybe a hair better and might have better reliability.  But a single good speaker, particularly in this application, will work much better.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 03, 2018, 10:14:23 pm
Hi everyone,

Thank you all for all the great replies and reliable information. I have ordered a single DXR15 for now and will possibly order another and a subwoofer next year. I have two final questions; will it be ok to have the speaker on the floor? or should I get a stand? And lastly, how much of a difference in sound quality does the dual 6.35mm input have over the rca input?

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Stephen Kirby on September 04, 2018, 12:36:35 am
Hi everyone,

Thank you all for all the great replies and reliable information. I have ordered a single DXR15 for now and will possibly order another and a subwoofer next year. I have two final questions; will it be ok to have the speaker on the floor? or should I get a stand? And lastly, how much of a difference in sound quality does the dual 6.35mm input have over the rca input?

Thank you,
Nick
It will be better on a stand or "correctly" mounted to the wall.  By correctly I mean using proper mounting hardware that's rated for suspending such things like the factory u-bracket kit or Yamaha eye bolts (not hardware store stuff) and rated chains or cables.  Consult your handy HVAC or licensed electrician for pointers on properly suspending things.  I would say get a rigger but that's not likely given the budget.  Maybe it's better to just get a stand.  Use the tilt down hole and put it above head height so that it aims across the room.

There's no sound difference at all between the RCA and the 1/4" inputs.  Although the quarter's may be a bit more reliable. 
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Roland Clarke on September 04, 2018, 03:14:52 am
The only point I would make is that your suggestion earlier of the srx 835 will be totally overkill for the size of room you are using.  The Yamahaís will give you great sound, plenty loud enough to make your ears bleed and are very reasonable price wise.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Rory Buszka on September 04, 2018, 02:04:10 pm
Hello everyone, I'm a complete newbie when it comes to audio. With that being said I made the mistake of purchasing this system.

2) Rockville RSG12.28 Dual 12 2000W PA Speakers+Rockville RPA9 DJ Amplifier Amp https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XFRNRS2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_VxAIBbGY7WE26

The system is trash and through testing I found that on the loudest setting it reached a max dB of 85 and an average of 70dB. I'm going to return this system.

I need help choosing something else. I'm looking to spend around $500 and am looking for loudness more than sound quality. Preferably something that can easily hit 100dB and averages around 85dB or even louder is fine. You can always turn down the music. As I said I'm a complete newbie and know little to nothing. I am open to all suggestions.

Thank you in advance,
Nick

Something doesn't seem quite right here. Those speakers should have a 1W sensitivity that is at least 90 dB or above, with two 15" LF drivers active, and that's with just one watt input from the amplifier. It doesn't look like anyone asked questions regarding your existing setup to address the low output issue. Those speakers are indeed trash, compared to what folks on here are used to, and so is the amp (most likely) but they should make lots and lots of very unpleasant sound at painful levels. You would provide a more professional result with just about any other gear; Rockville is on the level of Nady, Kustom, Madison, Seismic Audio - not respected brands. But the question of why you just aren't getting much sound is one that needs to be addressed or even a set of more expensive speakers will still leave you underwhelmed.

Are you using your smartphone (iPhone, Samsung Galaxy, etc.) to drive them? If yes, then your phone is only able to provide peak a signal level of about 0.3V to drive the amplifier, which is a typical output level for smartphones. Pro audio amplifiers need much higher voltages to start delivering close to their full power, on the order of 2-4 volts or more. You will need some sort of device that provides "preamp" functionality, such as a mixing board, or a powered line level converter like the ART CleanBox (a good quality solution, or if you want to go more "dirt cheap", there are other options). Whatever you use, it should have its own separate power supply (a separate plug for the wall), because it needs the power to boost the level of signal from your smartphone or other audio source to properly drive the input of the power amplifier. Every power amplifier has an "input sensitivity" - the amount of voltage required on the input of the power amplifier to provide full power at the output, with the volume or gain control maxed. If your phone's 0.3V signal is not higher than the input sensitivity voltage of the amplifier (or the input of your powered speaker), then you won't get full power, even if all your volume settings are at "full", and even if the speakers and amplifier should be able to supply lots of output when properly driven. Pro audio products are designed to work with higher input voltages than a smartphone can provide, so the reason why this isn't normally a consideration is because even small, cheap mixers are able to provide output voltages that can properly drive "professional" power amplifiers, and this level-boosting is baked into the system (and normally performed by the mixer). If you don't have an outboard mixer or a separate line level converter (like the aforementioned ART CleanBox) then you will need to buy one.

It may be too late for this advice to save your "Rockville" speakers and amplifier from their trip to Amazon's return center, but hopefully it will help you get the most out of whatever you buy in the future. Even though what you had would be unsuitable for the needs of virtually all participants on this forum, it should still have made a lot of sound - even though it would be unpleasant sound.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Jeremy Young on September 04, 2018, 04:38:34 pm
Just before I disappeared for the weekend I asked a question about how they were hooked up, thinking similar to Rory that the amplifier simply wasn't getting a hot enough signal.  The link in the first post can be followed to a dedicated listing for the speakers and one for the amp where I found a little more technical info; but not enough.

FWIW, the manufacturer lists an efficiency of 102dB @ 1w/1m for those cabinets. 
If we take that at face value, getting 70dB average at 24" would indicate less than 1 watt of input to the cabinet, so in other words the input to the amplifier is not great enough to realize the rated output of 250w @ 8-ohm. 

The OP mentioned that he's using some type of RCA-to-Bluetooth adapter, but didn't list a brand or model so we don't know whether it's nominal line-level or mic-level.

So I started looking for the amplifier sensitivity or maximum input level to determine what drive voltage would be required for maximum output, but couldn't find it.  It's entirely possible that the OP would require a microphone preamp before the rack amp to really get it to max output.  The OP may be able to comment on whether or not the signal or clip lights are lighting, but at this point it looks like we've managed to swing him into the idea of moving to a single-powered PA cabinet with the connections on it he needs to directly connect his bluetooth-adapter-thingy without any other pieces; which I think it going to eliminate a lot of issues and reduce the number of cables required. 


There was a comment about setting the dials to the max-dB setting and a mismatch of the labelling on the amp (although the pictures online definitely have the wrong printing on the label).  From the photos online, I can only imagine the first setting used was the furthest counter-clockwise above the minus-infinity setting, which per the silkscreening would indicate +24dB but like a properly silkscreened amp should have actually read -24dB.  Presuming the OP tried it in the fully-clockwise position and still did not get enough output for the intended use, then there's either a lot of magic in that 102dB/1w/1m sensitivity spec or the bluetooth adapter is not providing enough output signal. 

Then I saw that the OP is happy to return them so I gave up.  Besides, anything with four piezo tweeters in it should be ritualistically burned!


To the OP, return that junk, try to rent a powered speaker from your local guitar-center or similar, put it on a speaker tripod so the horn is above head-height, and see how it sounds in your space.  Aim it at the listeners, not the opposite walls or any other hard surfaces if possible.  Get one that has RCA or 1/4" mic-level inputs as well as the line-level inputs so you can interface with whatever audio playback devices you're using now and might get in future.  You may be surprised at what a professional box can do.  Don't both with two cabinets.  I suggested a 15" woofer model so that you didn't need a dedicated subwoofer, freeing up some budget for a better top box than trying to fit both a sub and top into your budget.  You can always add a subwoofer later if you feel you need to.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Steve Loewenthal on September 04, 2018, 08:54:16 pm
It is my opinion that:
1) The safest option in your budget for mounting this speaker is a regular speaker stand.
2) You can get away with the least expensive stand at your GC that raises the bottom speaker at least 5 feet. (about $30 when I looked a minute ago.)

I would suggest that you somehow anchor the stand to the wall or floor to reduce the chance that it will get tipped over. (such as an eye hook into a stud in the wall and a very small chain around the stand to the eye hook.) Should not cost much more than $2.00.

Once everything is hooked up, get some pink noise and play it through the system. Walk around the room listening for sudden changes in volume as you move about. There are going to be places where the noise combines to make it louder and quieter. (At specific frequencies.) Note where the worst of these are then change the direction the speaker is facing just a little to the left or right and listen again. You will never eliminate all of the differences, but sometimes a very small change in the speaker direction (and placement) can make a big difference. Of course, all this will change once people are in the room and start absorbing some of the sound.
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 07, 2018, 01:09:18 pm
It will be better on a stand or "correctly" mounted to the wall.  By correctly I mean using proper mounting hardware that's rated for suspending such things like the factory u-bracket kit or Yamaha eye bolts (not hardware store stuff) and rated chains or cables.  Consult your handy HVAC or licensed electrician for pointers on properly suspending things.  I would say get a rigger but that's not likely given the budget.  Maybe it's better to just get a stand.  Use the tilt down hole and put it above head height so that it aims across the room.
There's no sound difference at all between the RCA and the 1/4" inputs.  Although the quarter's may be a bit more reliable.

Hi Stephen,

Thank you for the reply I've went ahead and purchased a stand for the speaker. I'm going to try to find a way to secure it to the wall so there isn't a chance of it falling over.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 07, 2018, 01:11:12 pm
The only point I would make is that your suggestion earlier of the srx 835 will be totally overkill for the size of room you are using.  The Yamahaís will give you great sound, plenty loud enough to make your ears bleed and are very reasonable price wise.

Hi Roland,

I was thinking the same thing. Although I found a used srx 835 on eBay for $825 from a reputable seller. I almost jumped on it, but instead went for the dxr15. Now I'm kinda wishing I went for the 835 for $200 more.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Nick Martini on September 07, 2018, 01:25:39 pm
Something doesn't seem quite right here. Those speakers should have a 1W sensitivity that is at least 90 dB or above, with two 15" LF drivers active, and that's with just one watt input from the amplifier. It doesn't look like anyone asked questions regarding your existing setup to address the low output issue. Those speakers are indeed trash, compared to what folks on here are used to, and so is the amp (most likely) but they should make lots and lots of very unpleasant sound at painful levels. You would provide a more professional result with just about any other gear; Rockville is on the level of Nady, Kustom, Madison, Seismic Audio - not respected brands. But the question of why you just aren't getting much sound is one that needs to be addressed or even a set of more expensive speakers will still leave you underwhelmed.

Are you using your smartphone (iPhone, Samsung Galaxy, etc.) to drive them? If yes, then your phone is only able to provide peak a signal level of about 0.3V to drive the amplifier, which is a typical output level for smartphones. Pro audio amplifiers need much higher voltages to start delivering close to their full power, on the order of 2-4 volts or more. You will need some sort of device that provides "preamp" functionality, such as a mixing board, or a powered line level converter like the ART CleanBox (a good quality solution, or if you want to go more "dirt cheap", there are other options). Whatever you use, it should have its own separate power supply (a separate plug for the wall), because it needs the power to boost the level of signal from your smartphone or other audio source to properly drive the input of the power amplifier. Every power amplifier has an "input sensitivity" - the amount of voltage required on the input of the power amplifier to provide full power at the output, with the volume or gain control maxed. If your phone's 0.3V signal is not higher than the input sensitivity voltage of the amplifier (or the input of your powered speaker), then you won't get full power, even if all your volume settings are at "full", and even if the speakers and amplifier should be able to supply lots of output when properly driven. Pro audio products are designed to work with higher input voltages than a smartphone can provide, so the reason why this isn't normally a consideration is because even small, cheap mixers are able to provide output voltages that can properly drive "professional" power amplifiers, and this level-boosting is baked into the system (and normally performed by the mixer). If you don't have an outboard mixer or a separate line level converter (like the aforementioned ART CleanBox) then you will need to buy one.

It may be too late for this advice to save your "Rockville" speakers and amplifier from their trip to Amazon's return center, but hopefully it will help you get the most out of whatever you buy in the future. Even though what you had would be unsuitable for the needs of virtually all participants on this forum, it should still have made a lot of sound - even though it would be unpleasant sound.

Hi Rory,

Thank you for the extremely detailed response. That's a very good point you brought up about the phone not giving off enough volts. I'm using a Samsung Galaxy note 8. For the adapter I'm using this cheap rca ro Bluetooth unit from 1Mii B06 Plus Bluetooth Receiver,... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078J3GTRK?ref=yo_pop_ma_swf . I have already sent the speakers back to Amazon and ordered a dxr15. Do you think I'll need a mixer with the dxr15 to use it at it's full potential.

Thank you,
Nick
Title: Re: In the market for new speakers
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 07, 2018, 01:53:52 pm
Hi Rory,

Thank you for the extremely detailed response. That's a very good point you brought up about the phone not giving off enough volts. I'm using a Samsung Galaxy note 8. For the adapter I'm using this cheap rca ro Bluetooth unit from 1Mii B06 Plus Bluetooth Receiver,... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078J3GTRK?ref=yo_pop_ma_swf . I have already sent the speakers back to Amazon and ordered a dxr15. Do you think I'll need a mixer with the dxr15 to use it at it's full potential.

Thank you,
Nick

Worry not ..... I just quickly connected my phone to my little DXR8 using the RCA's and there is PLENTY of volume there. Absolutely no need for a mixer....so the DXR15 will ROCK the gym !