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Title: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on July 05, 2018, 03:20:55 pm
I've tried googling this but I believe I'm not hitting the correct search-strings.

Anyway. Is this possible through one switch?

The info I got from the Audienate webpage says this is possible, if I use a switch with QoS, so Dante will get first priority.

The reason I'm asking that a colleague of mine who does a fair bit of installations told me that they always separate Dante out to it's own network, and said I could run into some stability issues if running remote WL software on the same network/switch as dante. Could this be that he's talking about an unmanaged switch, where all traffic is treated equally?

What I'm trying to accomplish is having Sennheisers Wireless systems manager and Show cue systems where my outputs are Dante into a CL/QL, and the remote software for the QL/CL, on the same switch?
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Rob Spence on July 05, 2018, 03:33:42 pm
How many devices are running Dante?

What else is on the network?

I use one simple switch to run Dante from a mixer to a MacBook for recording and also for wireless access to the mixer with an iPad. No internet connection. Works fine.

I think Audinate expects much larger numbers and give guidance based on that.


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Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on July 05, 2018, 03:46:22 pm
How many devices are running Dante?

What else is on the network?

I use one simple switch to run Dante from a mixer to a MacBook for recording and also for wireless access to the mixer with an iPad. No internet connection. Works fine.

I think Audinate expects much larger numbers and give guidance based on that.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


For this example it will only be my latop into the QL/CL, so two units. The link between the RIO-rack and desk will be a dedicated line running from the primary port of the desk. I'm currently running my laptop into the secondary port of the desk.

In the future I'd want to add my laptop in the same "line" as the RIO/FOH/Monitor desk so I can trigger tracks from my latop and mons and foh can just add the dante stream to the inputs.


And another question. If I want to run reduntant between a mon and foh console from a RIO-rack. Can I just use a managed switch where foh, mons, rio and my laptop "meet", and run primary and secondary from this switch into each console and the rack, and one cat-cable from my latptop into the switch?

Sorry all the newb questions. Dante and this kind of networking is very new to me.
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: David Buckley on July 05, 2018, 07:21:28 pm
QoS is only necessary when the going gets tough so the switch knows which stuff to prioritize.  If you're running gigabit Ethernet and not too many Dante channels, then the going will never get tough, and any old switch will do.  But if you have a switch with QoS then that staves off the inevitable.

Add to that that the QoS is applied on the outgoing port on the switch.  So if your arrangement has your laptop with one feed into the switch, and then the  Dante traffic goes to the mixer on one switch port, and the link to the wireless control is on another switch port, and the mixer control is on a third switch port (ie separate etehrnet ports for Dante and control on the mixer) then QoS never gets a chance  to come into play, because there is never a conflict of type of traffic on any one outgoing switch port.

The point where there might be conflict on your setup is on the laptop ethernet port.  Though if the laptop is gigabit Ethernet, it will very probably be OK, but you should test it first under realistic Dante loads before committing to live.  Audinate say that Gigabit Ethernet is required for 32x32 @ 48KHz, so if your channel count is significantly below that then there should be no issues.  I suspect (but don't know) that the VSC driver enforces itself as a priority device on the local OS stack.
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on July 05, 2018, 07:36:54 pm
QoS is only necessary when the going gets tough so the switch knows which stuff to prioritize.  If you're running gigabit Ethernet and not too many Dante channels, then the going will never get tough, and any old switch will do.  But if you have a switch with QoS then that staves off the inevitable.

Add to that that the QoS is applied on the outgoing port on the switch.  So if your arrangement has your laptop with one feed into the switch, and then the  Dante traffic goes to the mixer on one switch port, and the link to the wireless control is on another switch port, and the mixer control is on a third switch port (ie separate etehrnet ports for Dante and control on the mixer) then QoS never gets a chance  to come into play, because there is never a conflict of type of traffic on any one outgoing switch port.

The point where there might be conflict on your setup is on the laptop ethernet port.  Though if the laptop is gigabit Ethernet, it will very probably be OK, but you should test it first under realistic Dante loads before committing to live.  Audinate say that Gigabit Ethernet is required for 32x32 @ 48KHz, so if your channel count is significantly below that then there should be no issues.  I suspect (but don't know) that the VSC driver enforces itself as a priority device on the local OS stack.

So, in other words I should be perfectly fine with running monitoring of WL, 8 ch of Dante from laptop to console, and remote operation of console, though a unmanaged switch, but to me more secure it should be managed? The communication between the QL5 and RIO is done through the primary port of the console. I know that I need to test it first.
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on July 05, 2018, 11:17:31 pm
So, in other words I should be perfectly fine with running monitoring of WL, 8 ch of Dante from laptop to console, and remote operation of console, though a unmanaged switch, but to me more secure it should be managed? The communication between the QL5 and RIO is done through the primary port of the console. I know that I need to test it first.

This will be zero problems at all for a gigabit switch.  Add 500 more channels and then you might see some issues. 
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Erik Jerde on July 05, 2018, 11:26:58 pm
Iíve got a system that is used for Dante monitoring, Shure monitoring (2x ULXDQ4), Sennheiser monitoring, Roland REAC configuration for IEMs, and occasional Dante recording using DVS.  Has 3 physical gigabit nics.  1 for general production, one for Dante primary, one for secondary.

Works great, no problems.  Running via Cisco SG300s properly configured.

Youíll be fine.  Just make sure thereís no EEE on your switch.
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on July 08, 2018, 02:05:47 pm
Iíve got a system that is used for Dante monitoring, Shure monitoring (2x ULXDQ4), Sennheiser monitoring, Roland REAC configuration for IEMs, and occasional Dante recording using DVS.  Has 3 physical gigabit nics.  1 for general production, one for Dante primary, one for secondary.

Works great, no problems.  Running via Cisco SG300s properly configured.

Youíll be fine.  Just make sure thereís no EEE on your switch.

I don't know how to reply "open", without quoting someone..

So, can I ask for tips about how one would do this, it's a step ut from what I initially asked, but I'm trying to puzzle all the information together..

FOH, mons and streaming. Lets say 72 channels-ish. Redundant. Remote view of 20ish channels of WL through sennheiser wireless systems manager, and also 8 or 16 channels from laptop into the dante network.

My guess is dedicated switches for primary and secondary (redundant) (managed/unmanaged?), but then how do I get dante from my laptop into the primary and secondary dante-network?
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Mac Kerr on July 08, 2018, 02:45:08 pm
I don't know how to reply "open", without quoting someone..

It's possible to just edit out anything you don't want to quote, but we don't recommend removing everything because without any quoted information, as time goes by and the thread may get long, there is no way for people to know what you are referring to without a quote.
Quote
So, can I ask for tips about how one would do this, it's a step ut from what I initially asked, but I'm trying to puzzle all the information together..

FOH, mons and streaming. Lets say 72 channels-ish. Redundant. Remote view of 20ish channels of WL through sennheiser wireless systems manager, and also 8 or 16 channels from laptop into the dante network.

What are you describing here? FOH console with 72 inputs, Mon console with same, Streaming a mix off FOH or a 3rd console? Monitoring 20ch of RF is not an issue, it is very low bandwidth. Having 16ch of playback from your laptop via Dante brings you to 88 channels into the 64ch Dante port on the console. You will need 2 MY16 Dante expansion cards to be able to connect that many channels.

Quote
My guess is dedicated switches for primary and secondary (redundant) (managed/unmanaged?), but then how do I get dante from my laptop into the primary and secondary dante-network?

Yes, 2 switches minimum as you will have 3x2 connections at FOH (console, MY card 1 and MY card 2) plus your computer into the primary network. You may want 2 more on stage if you have a console and 2 or more Rio I/O devices on stage, plus all your RF receivers you want to monitor. Dante Virtual Soundcard does not support the secondary network, so your computer playback will be on the primary network only.

Mac
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on July 08, 2018, 05:28:58 pm
It's possible to just edit out anything you don't want to quote, but we don't recommend removing everything because without any quoted information, as time goes by and the thread may get long, there is no way for people to know what you are referring to without a quote.
What are you describing here? FOH console with 72 inputs, Mon console with same, Streaming a mix off FOH or a 3rd console? Monitoring 20ch of RF is not an issue, it is very low bandwidth. Having 16ch of playback from your laptop via Dante brings you to 88 channels into the 64ch Dante port on the console. You will need 2 MY16 Dante expansion cards to be able to connect that many channels.

Yes, 2 switches minimum as you will have 3x2 connections at FOH (console, MY card 1 and MY card 2) plus your computer into the primary network. You may want 2 more on stage if you have a console and 2 or more Rio I/O devices on stage, plus all your RF receivers you want to monitor. Dante Virtual Soundcard does not support the secondary network, so your computer playback will be on the primary network only.

Mac

I realize that my arbitrary number of 72 channels + 16 from laptop was not close to reality. I know that DVS does not support redundancy. So will this mean that my tracks from the DVS are limited to the primary network only? If the primary goes down the show is screwed?

What I'm kind of asking about is can I run a primary and secondary through two switches, where I have one FOH console, one MON console and one streaming console, while also having remote monitoring of 20x WL-units. The remote monitoring would just be into one laptop located at preferably monitor position. And also 16 channels from laptop @ monitor position.
Title: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on July 08, 2018, 06:52:08 pm
The latest version of DVS allows you to use a computer with 2 NICs to connect to both networks.

I found THIS (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTsLFzQ262k) in about 10 sec with a Google search.

Mac
Mac,
What am I missing here? The video is on Dante controller, not Dante virtual sound card.  Controller has been able to monitor on both primary and secondary for years and years.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Mac Kerr on July 08, 2018, 07:08:13 pm
Mac,
What am I missing here? The video is on Dante controller, not Dante virtual sound card.  Controller has been able to monitor on both primary and secondary for years and years.

Brain fart. Removed.

Mac
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on July 08, 2018, 07:12:18 pm
I know that DVS does not support redundancy. So will this mean that my tracks from the DVS are limited to the primary network only? If the primary goes down the show is screwed?


A couple options are to have two laptops simultaneously trigger tracks, one on the primary and one one the secondary, or load up a computer with the Yamaha (also maybe Focusrite??) PCIe card.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Erik Jerde on July 08, 2018, 11:46:14 pm
If you want to have your laptop see primary and secondary then you need two discrete network cards.  You canít trunk vlans and setup virtual interfaces, Dante wonít use them.

For monitoring just put the devices on the primary network switch.  If youíre concerned about traffic use managed switches with QOS.

DVS playback redundancy isnít something Iíve tangled with.  Others here will be more helpful.  The idea of two synchronized playback systems isnít bad.  DVS isnít limited to just the primary.  Itís just limited to only one network so the secondary system just gets plugged into the secondary network.

Does anyone know if you can run two instances of DVS simultaneously with one bound to primary and one to secondary?  Iím guessing no.  Anyone know how failover would happen in a two system primary/secondary setup?  Do they need to be two sets of input channels or will Dante really handle them as primary secondary even though they come from different devices?
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Rob Spence on July 09, 2018, 12:18:17 am
My suggestion is if you are going to build a complex Dante network as you hypothesized, you should get some Dante training.

Even some basic instruction would get you well on the way to understanding what and how.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on July 09, 2018, 11:21:12 am
My suggestion is if you are going to build a complex Dante network as you hypothesized, you should get some Dante training.

Even some basic instruction would get you well on the way to understanding what and how.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Yes. I've thought about some Dante-training. But until that happens I've thrown out some "curious" questions so I can piece the answers I get together and do some research myself from what I get, so I'll slowly get closer to understanding the big picture. My kind of questions in this thread is sort of how I approach something completely new to me. So thank's for all your inputs, really helpful.

However. I have one last question I haven't been able to google. Can I build a "network", with routing in the dante controller offline? If I know what units will be connected on site, can I do the routing offline, without being connected to the units at any point? I've seen videos of presets, but the videos has all the units connected already.
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Mac Kerr on July 09, 2018, 12:00:10 pm
However. I have one last question I haven't been able to google. Can I build a "network", with routing in the dante controller offline? If I know what units will be connected on site, can I do the routing offline, without being connected to the units at any point? I've seen videos of presets, but the videos has all the units connected already.

No. This is the one real negative issue with Dante. There is no offline editing. I have been bringing this up with Audinate since the beginning, as I am sure many others have as well. So far they seem to be ignoring the issue. Their standard response is that they can't be responsible for all the different manufacturer's products, but that is not what I am asking for. I want the ability to create a virtual 16x8 device and give it a unique Dante name and have it appear in Dante Controller as that device. When I hook up to the real gear and Controller sees 2 devices with the same name I should get the option to select the real one and ignore the virtual device.

Mac
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on July 09, 2018, 12:00:56 pm
Yes. I've thought about some Dante-training. But until that happens I've thrown out some "curious" questions so I can piece the answers I get together and do some research myself from what I get, so I'll slowly get closer to understanding the big picture. My kind of questions in this thread is sort of how I approach something completely new to me. So thank's for all your inputs, really helpful.

However. I have one last question I haven't been able to google. Can I build a "network", with routing in the dante controller offline? If I know what units will be connected on site, can I do the routing offline, without being connected to the units at any point? I've seen videos of presets, but the videos has all the units connected already.

Dante training is available online for free.

https://www.audinate.com/resources/training-and-tutorials/dante-certification-training


And secondly, no, you cannot setup your routing offline.


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Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on July 09, 2018, 01:46:30 pm
Dante training is available online for free.

https://www.audinate.com/resources/training-and-tutorials/dante-certification-training


And secondly, no, you cannot setup your routing offline.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

That has flown over my head. Thanks!
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on July 09, 2018, 04:01:15 pm
No. This is the one real negative issue with Dante. There is no offline editing. I have been bringing this up with Audinate since the beginning, as I am sure many others have as well. So far they seem to be ignoring the issue. Their standard response is that they can't be responsible for all the different manufacturer's products, but that is not what I am asking for. I want the ability to create a virtual 16x8 device and give it a unique Dante name and have it appear in Dante Controller as that device. When I hook up to the real gear and Controller sees 2 devices with the same name I should get the option to select the real one and ignore the virtual device.

Mac

Aha. Glad I'm not the only one who has asked about this. In my head the virtual and real life dante-names wouldn't have to be the same, I'm picturing a setting where you can for instance drag and drop your virtual units onto the real units to "address/assign" them, and you'd get the option to rename the actual unit with the virtually created name, or keep the actual units name. Anyhow, this would save some time on-site, and you'd be able to get in there with a plan which has already been somewhat executed, but not fully deployed.
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Mac Kerr on July 09, 2018, 04:57:19 pm
Aha. Glad I'm not the only one who has asked about this. In my head the virtual and real life dante-names wouldn't have to be the same, I'm picturing a setting where you can for instance drag and drop your virtual units onto the real units to "address/assign" them, and you'd get the option to rename the actual unit with the virtually created name, or keep the actual units name. Anyhow, this would save some time on-site, and you'd be able to get in there with a plan which has already been somewhat executed, but not fully deployed.

The shop that owns the system can program up the Dante network to your spec. When I was doing CGI and had a several hundred channel Dante system with 4 consoles and 11 Rios and 22 switches I went to the shop to prep the system and did all my programming and testing before the system left the shop.

The reason for using the same names is because that is how Dante identifies devices.

Mac
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on July 09, 2018, 06:11:20 pm
The shop that owns the system can program up the Dante network to your spec. When I was doing CGI and had a several hundred channel Dante system with 4 consoles and 11 Rios and 22 switches I went to the shop to prep the system and did all my programming and testing before the system left the shop.

The reason for using the same names is because that is how Dante identifies devices.

Mac

But then everything has to be hooked up? I'm actually one of the guys "in a shop". Rental company which uses full time employees in the field..  I usually prep my WL frequencies, showfiles etc etc beforehand, "in the shop" and the dante setup is one of the things I've now understood that I can't prep, unless I hook it all up beforehand. There's other things for me to do when not out on a production, and if some of the dante-units are out, I can't do anything even if I had the time.
Title: Offline Dante patching
Post by: Andrew Hollis on July 12, 2018, 05:06:56 pm
There is no offline editing. I want the ability to create a virtual 16x8 device and give it a unique Dante name and have it appear in Dante Controller as that device. When I hook up to the real gear and Controller sees 2 devices with the same name I should get the option to select the real one and ignore the virtual device.

I'm picturing a setting where you can for instance drag and drop your virtual units onto the real units to "address/assign" them, and you'd get the option to rename the actual unit with the virtually created name, or keep the actual units name.

Ah, funny. SSL can patch to and from any offline Dante device, and it works exactly as you have imaginedódrag and drop!

Here's a quick look at that:
https://youtu.be/bDy9GDHweCg
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Tim Weaver on July 12, 2018, 07:41:58 pm
I think you have your answer, but I regularly run 33 channels of Dante into Reaper which records those tracks onto an external drive (SSD Tbolt) and run Wireless Workbench monitoring 4 channels (soon to be 8 ) of Shure ULXD. I also run the host program for Soundgrid Multirack. All of that runs through the ethernet NIC built in to the iMac. I can then also browse the net, or even stream youtube or whatnot using the wifi NIC in the same iMac.

I also have a Focusrite interface for some local IO to the machine, So Focusrite Mix Control is always running connected through firewire.

The 2 network interfaces are because my Dante is on a Vlan and can't get to the web.

So, one older but top of the line iMac (I think from 2012) runs:
Dante Controller
Reaper multitracking
Soundgrid Server Host
Focusrite Mix Control
Wireless Workbench
Chrome for goofing off, watching youtube, posting at the LAB......

All this has not caused a single hiccup for me. Not to mention I'm using dual monitors (built-in and a 40" TV) so that places a load on the machine as well.
Title: Re: Offline Dante patching
Post by: Miguel Dahl on July 14, 2018, 04:16:52 pm
Ah, funny. SSL can patch to and from any offline Dante device, and it works exactly as you have imaginedódrag and drop!

Here's a quick look at that:
https://youtu.be/bDy9GDHweCg

Huh, that's pretty neat.
Title: Re: One PC: Can I run Dante, remote control for mixer and remote-app for WL?
Post by: Miguel Dahl on July 14, 2018, 04:18:01 pm
I think you have your answer, but I regularly run 33 channels of Dante into Reaper which records those tracks onto an external drive (SSD Tbolt) and run Wireless Workbench monitoring 4 channels (soon to be 8 ) of Shure ULXD. I also run the host program for Soundgrid Multirack. All of that runs through the ethernet NIC built in to the iMac. I can then also browse the net, or even stream youtube or whatnot using the wifi NIC in the same iMac.

I also have a Focusrite interface for some local IO to the machine, So Focusrite Mix Control is always running connected through firewire.

The 2 network interfaces are because my Dante is on a Vlan and can't get to the web.

So, one older but top of the line iMac (I think from 2012) runs:
Dante Controller
Reaper multitracking
Soundgrid Server Host
Focusrite Mix Control
Wireless Workbench
Chrome for goofing off, watching youtube, posting at the LAB......

All this has not caused a single hiccup for me. Not to mention I'm using dual monitors (built-in and a 40" TV) so that places a load on the machine as well.

Right. Seems like I should explore more for myself than relying on my colleague's "it won't work". Thank you.
Title: Re: Offline Dante patching
Post by: Mac Kerr on July 14, 2018, 04:54:55 pm
Ah, funny. SSL can patch to and from any offline Dante device, and it works exactly as you have imaginedódrag and drop!

Here's a quick look at that:
https://youtu.be/bDy9GDHweCg

Yamaha can do that as well by creating virtual devices that you can patch to and from. It is DANTE CONTROLLER that needs to see all the devices. Having a console that can use virtual devices isn't that much help when you are working on your patch on an airplane on the way to the gig, or even at home when you can't get to the shop. Generally, if I can get to the console to use it a patching device, I can get to the other Dante equipment to just set everything up and patch with Dante Controller which is much easier and faster.

Mac
Title: Re: Offline Dante patching
Post by: Andrew Hollis on July 15, 2018, 11:08:38 am
Having a console that can use virtual devices isn't that much help when you are working on your patch on an airplane on the way to the gig, or even at home when you can't get to the shop. Generally, if I can get to the console to use it a patching device, I can get to the other Dante equipment to just set everything up and patch with Dante Controller which is much easier and faster.

I think maybe the whole video was not watched. SSL drives Dante Controller so you don't have to. You can build a Dante Controller patch in your airplane or your home with the SSL SOLSA offline app; a console is not required. Controller is not required.

PM series requires the user to manually build and manage a 'Dante Patch" layer, and is limited to 24 devices. So it's neither dynamic nor automatic. The PM user has to patch all 'domains' manually. That's the difference. In the SSL, you don't have to touch Controller, or make a 'Dante Patch.'
Title: Re: Offline Dante patching
Post by: Mac Kerr on July 15, 2018, 06:27:22 pm
I think maybe the whole video was not watched. SSL drives Dante Controller so you don't have to. You can build a Dante Controller patch in your airplane or your home with the SSL SOLSA offline app; a console is not required. Controller is not required.

Watching the whole video wouldn't have helped since there is no mention of SOLSA.

Mac