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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Subwoofer Forum => Topic started by: Mike Spade on May 14, 2018, 09:31:44 pm

Title: Gona try this another way
Post by: Mike Spade on May 14, 2018, 09:31:44 pm
Okay since everybody seems so concerned about my sound system and can't stay on subject, lets try this another way.

Lets pretend I have zero gear.

Lets pretend have a limited budget so buying new higher powered subs or amps isn't a option.

Lets pretend I have limits on power draw so buying a new high wattage amp and 18s isn't a option even if I had the budget.

Lets pretend I have been donated a 500w rms amp and two 600w rvp 18s.

Lets pretend I have unlimited storage so cab size doesn't matter, it doesn't need to be small or compact.

Lets pretend I wanted it to go as low as 30hz.

Lets pretend all designs are on the table, bandpass, orders, reflex ect.

Lets pretend you got unlimited wood and case building supplies.

What kind of case would you make for these for sub bass above 30hz?
https://www.rockvilleaudio.com/rvp18w8/

Would you use a bass reflex design like yorkvilles sw1000 or communitys s218 or "the gsub"? If not, why not?

Would you use a different or more compact design like a sb1000? If not, why?

Do you know of any already made dual 18 cases made by any manufacturer that is around the same wattage of 1000-1200w rms with good results?

Looking for constructive chat here, not people telling me not to do it or not to bother, since this is just talking, I haven't done anything yet.

Also don't want to start a wattage debate, these subs have been chosen due to being dirt cheap as the first reason and inspired by the VBSS I thought to myself there must be a way to get the most possible out of these drivers in much the same way.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/2226642-v-b-s-s-diy-subwoofer-design-thread.html

Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: David Winners on May 14, 2018, 10:35:45 pm
I would suggest you buy a pile of  these.  (https://www.rockvilleaudio.com/sbg1188/) The pesky math is already done, and I don't think you could build the cabinets for that price. If you have spare drivers, that's a good thing.

Edited to add a word
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Mike Spade on May 14, 2018, 10:46:55 pm
I would suggest you buy a pile of  these.  (https://www.rockvilleaudio.com/sbg1188/) The pesky math is already done, and I don't think you could build the cabinets for that price. If you have spare drivers, that's a good thing.

Edited to add a word

I've actually messaged rockville about those exact cabs asking for the driver specs, thinking they may be a option to look at.

They told me its NOT the same 18 they are selling as singles and refused to give me anymore information or specs.

The biggest thing about those cabs that is a turn-off to me is that they are MDF and I do monthly outdoor events so they would have to be decarpited and bedlined to survive and tbh I dont trust mdf nearly as much as birch... I've had some mdf cases and they fall apart and get damaged, my crew is kinda rough sometimes. They also got no corners, suppose could always buy some.. but I mean I'm a wood worker I know I could make something better if I made the plans first. All my double 15s and 18s have 2 casters on the back/bottom with handles on the top so you can lean them back, I'd like to do this for my double 18 designs too, but you can do that to any design by re calculating the volume and box size.

So these drivers I have are NOT spare drivers for that case!

Still need to make a case, plus this seems like it could be a cool project making a double 18! Once I figure out what I want I'll prob make a test box out of mdf (cuz its cheap) and then make a birch one after if I like it.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Luke Geis on May 14, 2018, 11:48:30 pm
Without a speaker designer software, it is at best a guess. It seems as if it will go down to 30hz. so it should be possible to create a box with it that gets relatively low. However, I don't believe some of its specs.

First it is a stamped steel frame. It claims 101db @ 1w 1M for sensitivity. Furthermore it claims sub 30hz capability with a 3" coil. These are not typical specs for a driver with teh price tag this one has. It states 1,200 watts as being its peak rating, and 600 watts is its RMS wattage. Usually the peak rating is 4x the RMS, but that is not relevant in this case really. Based on the specs you could only supply 600 watts total per speaker so a dual 18" cabinet would prefer to see about 1,200 watts. You only have 1000 watts as far as I can tell?

Given what it states, this speaker would only be capable of 128.8db at 1meter with 600 watts of power. Double that power to 1,200 watts and you only gain 3db for 131.8db. A double 18" version with a 1000 watt peak amp ( as yours seems to be ) would add another 3db to that. So at best, a double 18" version would be capable of 134db peak with this amp. Keep in mind we still have no idea at what frequncy that peak SPL will be created.

We don't know what this speaker was designed for. Many are designed for use in horns, while other better suited for direct radiating designs. This one gives no real indication. So which design cabinet to put it in is a matter of punching in the Thiele Small parameters and trying different simulations. A horn should yield a few db more sensitivity, but I don't think it actually has that sensitivity at any real usable frequency.

Drawing on info from your other threads, it is apparent you haven't separated watts from SPL yet. In my humble opinion, You need a speaker capable of 136db peak to have real world output that is usable out to 50' from the source. The reason being is simply that you loose 16db of that to crest factor of the media and the fact you can't run peak wattage into the speaker for very long. A typical speaker capable of 136db peak is really only capable of around a 120db @ SPL 1m in real world usage. This doesn't factor losses for distance. So a double 18" version of what you have would just meet this criterion where many single 18" versions readily available are capable of 134db. I.E. you would have twice the speaker to get the same results as what is already out there in a single 18" design. 

You had mentioned building a wall of these things. Well you will certainly need a wall of these things to even keep up with a pair of single 18" units that are readily available. The issue is that you would be pulling the same rough number of watts from the wall ( if not more ) than the self powered single 18" units. Most modern active units are pulling 300-600 watts from the wall. So you can fit roughly 4 of them on a single 20 amp circuit. Most rack mounted amps with the same relative number of watts pulls roughly the same power. So you are are not really gaining anything there. Your speaker will use the same wall power for the same SPL output utilizing twice the space and twice the weight.

It comes down to sensitivity. This is the big make or break factor. Without knowing how truly sensitive the Rockville speaker is ( as in what frequency was that number created from ), I have no way of knowing how much noise it will really make. I think based on experience it's not going to get any louder than 132-134db peak and this is being generous. Real world output will be closer to 118db peak and you will be wanting of more. You will need 2 dual 18" units to do the same job as two single 18" units that you can get for roughly $1,000 each. While you could easily produce a dual 18" model for 1/3 that price, it will require much more work and may not actually ever sound as good as you desire.

The big thing is that you can't take a given design and stuff another speaker in it and expect to have the same performance. The sum of all parts is what makes it what it is. The speaker and the cabinet are designed to work with each other in a desirable way. I don't think any of us can say with any authority that the speaker you present will produce X results in any given design. All that means is that you have to do some RND and find out. This can be time consuming and expensive. So many variables come into place. The cabinet, the speaker and the DSP all have a say in how the speaker will work. The DSP is probably the biggest thing most don't understand. You can't fix every problem a speaker has with it, and even if it solves one issue, it can create another.

We advise against " Borrowing " designs and going off trying to create a brand new wheel for a multitude of reasons. The biggest reason is to save yourself from yourself. Stopping the insanity before it starts. The question you have to ask yourself is, are you a better engineer than the guys who actually design and make this stuff? They don't just grab random speakers off the shelf and create a cabinet that simply blows everyone away the first time every time. It is not by accident that JBL has a line of speakers that are affordable and sound good. They spent a lot of money and time developing a product to meet a goal. We care about your monetary well being and the impact your actions have on our industry. For every great sound guy there are 100 crappy ones. Not crappy for any other reason than they are naive, don't care to learn, simply don't care, or are negligent to the real reason for their employment. Much like an environmentalist, our job is to do no harm. Most of all, our job is much more than simply making things sound good. We are a service industry and when another guy leaves a bad taste in a clients mouth, it is that much harder for the next guy to bring and add value to what we do. We simply don't know enough about what you know, and what you have presented us isn't helping. If you have to ask, you probably don't know, so that means that you are embarking on a journey to make a brand new wheel. The wheel is already here. Save yourself the time and energy. Furthermore, save the space and the labor required to move what will ultimately be inferior to already available units. If you have to ask which is better, why one is more desirable and why you would take one design over the other, it tells us you don't understand why a speaker is even made to begin with. If you don't have a goal, all you have is a path that never ends. Stop dragging us and potential clients down that path with you. Given what I know about cabinet design, I know I can't beat what already exists. I don't care if I can get close for 1/3rd the cost, I make WAY more money just knowing I can't do it and utilizing the tools I have to increase demand for my services and continuing my research on how to best utilize those tools.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Luke Geis on May 15, 2018, 12:01:49 am
After looking at the pre made cabinets they have to offer, you can only assume that the results they produce won't be much better than you could. Teh speaker you have of interest is 101db sensitivity and eve their best 4" model with a 200 watt peak is only 98db in the cabinet. That + or - 2db is their caveat to what frequncy in which it is sensitive to. So 101db at 240hz? Or is it 101db at 30hz? I can already tell you its nominally 98db at any given frequncy of interest. This means that the at best performance assuming peak wattage is 131db ( you will need a 2000 watt amp ) and for a pair of them each with 2000 watts you will only have 136db peak. This again assumes peak wattage. You can only power it with an amp that is roughly 1,500 watts, so now you are at 132.8db and well blow the 136db mark I mentioned before. You only have a 1000 watt amp so now you only get 131db. This puts your world output down to 115db at 1m. Not going to cut it......
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 15, 2018, 12:02:01 am
I would suggest you buy a pile of  these.  (https://www.rockvilleaudio.com/sbg1188/) The pesky math is already done, and I don't think you could build the cabinets for that price. If you have spare drivers, that's a good thing.

Edited to add a word

What is someone going to pay you to show up with a pile of these?  That's the real question.  You owe to the folks coming to the show to do better than a $59.00 driver. 

Luke is correct and much more eloquent than I am.  A decent driver starts at about $300.  6 of these may on a good day possibly make as much noise on one frequency as the $300 driver.  They are going to heat up faster and burn up quicker.  You still have to have a pile of amps to drive them. 

No matter which way you spin it, it's wasted effort.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Mike Spade on May 15, 2018, 12:47:47 am
Without a speaker designer software, it is at best a guess. It seems as if it will go down to 30hz. so it should be possible to create a box with it that gets relatively low. However, I don't believe some of its specs.

First it is a stamped steel frame. It claims 101db @ 1w 1M for sensitivity. Furthermore it claims sub 30hz capability with a 3" coil. These are not typical specs for a driver with teh price tag this one has. It states 1,200 watts as being its peak rating, and 600 watts is its RMS wattage. Usually the peak rating is 4x the RMS, but that is not relevant in this case really. Based on the specs you could only supply 600 watts total per speaker so a dual 18" cabinet would prefer to see about 1,200 watts. You only have 1000 watts as far as I can tell?

Given what it states, this speaker would only be capable of 128.8db at 1meter with 600 watts of power. Double that power to 1,200 watts and you only gain 3db for 131.8db. A double 18" version with a 1000 watt peak amp ( as yours seems to be ) would add another 3db to that. So at best, a double 18" version would be capable of 134db peak with this amp. Keep in mind we still have no idea at what frequncy that peak SPL will be created.

We don't know what this speaker was designed for. Many are designed for use in horns, while other better suited for direct radiating designs. This one gives no real indication. So which design cabinet to put it in is a matter of punching in the Thiele Small parameters and trying different simulations. A horn should yield a few db more sensitivity, but I don't think it actually has that sensitivity at any real usable frequency.

Drawing on info from your other threads, it is apparent you haven't separated watts from SPL yet. In my humble opinion, You need a speaker capable of 136db peak to have real world output that is usable out to 50' from the source. The reason being is simply that you loose 16db of that to crest factor of the media and the fact you can't run peak wattage into the speaker for very long. A typical speaker capable of 136db peak is really only capable of around a 120db @ SPL 1m in real world usage. This doesn't factor losses for distance. So a double 18" version of what you have would just meet this criterion where many single 18" versions readily available are capable of 134db. I.E. you would have twice the speaker to get the same results as what is already out there in a single 18" design. 

You had mentioned building a wall of these things. Well you will certainly need a wall of these things to even keep up with a pair of single 18" units that are readily available. The issue is that you would be pulling the same rough number of watts from the wall ( if not more ) than the self powered single 18" units. Most modern active units are pulling 300-600 watts from the wall. So you can fit roughly 4 of them on a single 20 amp circuit. Most rack mounted amps with the same relative number of watts pulls roughly the same power. So you are are not really gaining anything there. Your speaker will use the same wall power for the same SPL output utilizing twice the space and twice the weight.

It comes down to sensitivity. This is the big make or break factor. Without knowing how truly sensitive the Rockville speaker is ( as in what frequency was that number created from ), I have no way of knowing how much noise it will really make. I think based on experience it's not going to get any louder than 132-134db peak and this is being generous. Real world output will be closer to 118db peak and you will be wanting of more. You will need 2 dual 18" units to do the same job as two single 18" units that you can get for roughly $1,000 each. While you could easily produce a dual 18" model for 1/3 that price, it will require much more work and may not actually ever sound as good as you desire.

The big thing is that you can't take a given design and stuff another speaker in it and expect to have the same performance. The sum of all parts is what makes it what it is. The speaker and the cabinet are designed to work with each other in a desirable way. I don't think any of us can say with any authority that the speaker you present will produce X results in any given design. All that means is that you have to do some RND and find out. This can be time consuming and expensive. So many variables come into place. The cabinet, the speaker and the DSP all have a say in how the speaker will work. The DSP is probably the biggest thing most don't understand. You can't fix every problem a speaker has with it, and even if it solves one issue, it can create another.

We advise against " Borrowing " designs and going off trying to create a brand new wheel for a multitude of reasons. The biggest reason is to save yourself from yourself. Stopping the insanity before it starts. The question you have to ask yourself is, are you a better engineer than the guys who actually design and make this stuff? They don't just grab random speakers off the shelf and create a cabinet that simply blows everyone away the first time every time. It is not by accident that JBL has a line of speakers that are affordable and sound good. They spent a lot of money and time developing a product to meet a goal. We care about your monetary well being and the impact your actions have on our industry. For every great sound guy there are 100 crappy ones. Not crappy for any other reason than they are naive, don't care to learn, simply don't care, or are negligent to the real reason for their employment. Much like an environmentalist, our job is to do no harm. Most of all, our job is much more than simply making things sound good. We are a service industry and when another guy leaves a bad taste in a clients mouth, it is that much harder for the next guy to bring and add value to what we do. We simply don't know enough about what you know, and what you have presented us isn't helping. If you have to ask, you probably don't know, so that means that you are embarking on a journey to make a brand new wheel. The wheel is already here. Save yourself the time and energy. Furthermore, save the space and the labor required to move what will ultimately be inferior to already available units. If you have to ask which is better, why one is more desirable and why you would take one design over the other, it tells us you don't understand why a speaker is even made to begin with. If you don't have a goal, all you have is a path that never ends. Stop dragging us and potential clients down that path with you. Given what I know about cabinet design, I know I can't beat what already exists. I don't care if I can get close for 1/3rd the cost, I make WAY more money just knowing I can't do it and utilizing the tools I have to increase demand for my services and continuing my research on how to best utilize those tools.

"Without a speaker designer software, it is at best a guess. "

I never said nobody could use software, in fact, I'm trying to talk to someone who may have enough experience with the software to be able to look at the ts specs and tell me if they see anything that may suggest what type of cab it may be used for.

Yakno like in winisd when it gives you a suggestion based upon the ts?

I'd love to crunch some numbers on this tbh in winisd!

"You only have 1000 watts as far as I can tell?"
Technically giving them 980w rms verse 2, this is not peak.

"We don't know what this speaker was designed for. Many are designed for use in horns, while other better suited for direct radiating designs"

Thats why I'm posting here since the only real thing I know to look at is the qts that winisd looks at and I figured someone here may know more by looking at the numbers like others have on other forums.

"The big thing is that you can't take a given design and stuff another speaker in it and expect to have the same performance."

Totally agree, this is why I'm looking at different cases and taking ideas from proven working cases to then take into winisd to recalculate the volume, port size/how long/how many.

I mean theres people who make custom boxes for trucks and cars all the time with any driver you throw at them by just doing some simple calculations and running winisd, theres no reason why I couldnt do the same thing with these.

I mean to say this another way, you say 2 grand for two good self powered 18s. The way I look at it is mdf is like 30-40 a sheet so for even a grand (half that) I could make alooot of different cases and try different things. I mean I already own the drivers and have the power, the investment here is purely time and wood. I don't need to reinvent the wheel, obviously I'd be using a already proven style like a front loaded bass reflex cab, something like a gsub seems to be the best idea so far. I have them currently in a yorkville sw1000 double 18 and they sound great in that case, good enough that I'm here thinking about designing a cab for them.

"I don't care if I can get close for 1/3rd the cost, I make WAY more money just knowing I can't do it and utilizing the tools I have to increase demand for my services"

I don't make money renting my equipment. This is a hobby gone wildly out of control to the point where I now have land and do monthly events on said land. So I mean cost matters to me, I don't have 2 grand laying around for 2 speakers and have a extremely hard time justifying that price when you can find even used cabs for less. Again I'm a woodworker so making a case instead of buying one sounds way better to me when I'm seeing alot of things made out of cheap mdf instead of birch, I mean mdf is great if your keeping it at home or a install or a test cab but for outdoor I want birch.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Mike Spade on May 15, 2018, 12:54:42 am
What is someone going to pay you to show up with a pile of these?  That's the real question.  You owe to the folks coming to the show to do better than a $59.00 driver. 

Luke is correct and much more eloquent than I am.  A decent driver starts at about $300.  6 of these may on a good day possibly make as much noise on one frequency as the $300 driver.  They are going to heat up faster and burn up quicker.  You still have to have a pile of amps to drive them. 

No matter which way you spin it, it's wasted effort.

Who said anyone is paying me to show up with these?

I have land and throw my own monthly events on said outdoor land, these are used nearly exclusively for that.

"You owe to the folks coming to the show to do better than a $59.00 driver. "

So the price is what makes it trash? So your saying the 500w 18 I have in the orginal yorkville sw1000 that would cost me $450 is better then the $60 driver purely cuz of the price? Despite both playing around the same volume in the same cases with the same wattage? I mean if you ask me I think the $60 drivers sound better then the $450 drivers and thats why I never bought another pair of the $450 ones, these $60 ones where supposed to be "temp" drivers till I saved up for the $450 ones but now I'm not even gona bother cuz theres no point.

Just cuz they can con you into paying a high price doesn't always mean what your getting is somehow instantly better. Sure some drivers like 18sounds are worth the high price tag, but can I afford that? No. So its not a option.

"6 of these may on a good day possibly make as much noise on one frequency as the $300 driver.  They are going to heat up faster and burn up quicker. "

2 of them going giving 980w rms for over a year used monthly, playing EDM straight for 12 to 36 hours. I think they handle the heat and power just fine from my experience, but maybe you need a longer test then 36 hours of continuous play at max volume? (just under amp clip, limited by a dbx 266 to stay there)

"No matter which way you spin it, it's wasted effort."

Is it really? These subs are as good or better then the yorkville 18s I replaced them with, that is a saving of $750 when I got a pair of rockvilles for $150 shipped to me, otherwise I would've been spending $900 for driver replacements that would've been no better then the drivers I got for $150.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Mike Spade on May 15, 2018, 01:05:38 am
After looking at the pre made cabinets they have to offer, you can only assume that the results they produce won't be much better than you could. Teh speaker you have of interest is 101db sensitivity and eve their best 4" model with a 200 watt peak is only 98db in the cabinet. That + or - 2db is their caveat to what frequncy in which it is sensitive to. So 101db at 240hz? Or is it 101db at 30hz? I can already tell you its nominally 98db at any given frequncy of interest. This means that the at best performance assuming peak wattage is 131db ( you will need a 2000 watt amp ) and for a pair of them each with 2000 watts you will only have 136db peak. This again assumes peak wattage. You can only power it with an amp that is roughly 1,500 watts, so now you are at 132.8db and well blow the 136db mark I mentioned before. You only have a 1000 watt amp so now you only get 131db. This puts your world output down to 115db at 1m. Not going to cut it......

"After looking at the pre made cabinets they have to offer, you can only assume that the results they produce won't be much better than you could."

Yeah maybe your right, but the difference is I'd be making double 18s instead of single 18s and they would be made in birch instead of mdf, I could also tune them differently and add more volume so I honestly do think I could produce better results when from what I can see these rvp drivers are better then the ones they used in those cabs.

Again those cabs are NOT using the same drivers as the rvp 18s I have, those are 500w 18s, these are 600w 18s, both have different ts specs.

I see no point in buying one of those cabs+speakers if I already have the speakers+amp and just need the cab, so far gsub seems to be what I'm leaning towards with a 30hz tune, I won't know proper volume or exact measuments till I finish crunching numbers in winisd

I mean again a sheet of mdf is like 30-40, a test cab would cost me some work and thats about it.. but if I bought one of those pre made subs and didnt like it I'd be stuck with it and out a decent shipping cost even if they did let me return it. (around $80-90 shipping for me to get one in canada so thats a good chunk of the total value)
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 15, 2018, 01:41:45 am
Car stereo speakers load into the car and play in the near field.  Not a valid comparison.

The Yorkville driver is cast and has a different suspension, voice coil and cooling design. 

I find it hard to believe that driver takes full power for 36 hours but if you say so I am not going to dispute it.

You can only do so much with 20 dollars in manufacturing budget.  That is about all you have it a $60  driver.

Some basic ideas.  Front loaded cabinets have no gain and to get loud or low they need power and excursion.  Notice I said loud or low you can have one or the other with a front loaded cabinet, low efficiency drivers and relatively low power. 

Now horns can create acoustic gain.  It comes at a price however.  Designing horns is tricky business.   

Of you Google the terms in the speaker specs you can translate them to the WinISD equivalent.



Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Mike Spade on May 15, 2018, 02:41:24 am
Car stereo speakers load into the car and play in the near field.  Not a valid comparison.

The Yorkville driver is cast and has a different suspension, voice coil and cooling design. 

I find it hard to believe that driver takes full power for 36 hours but if you say so I am not going to dispute it.

You can only do so much with 20 dollars in manufacturing budget.  That is about all you have it a $60  driver.

Some basic ideas.  Front loaded cabinets have no gain and to get loud or low they need power and excursion.  Notice I said loud or low you can have one or the other with a front loaded cabinet, low efficiency drivers and relatively low power. 

Now horns can create acoustic gain.  It comes at a price however.  Designing horns is tricky business.   

Of you Google the terms in the speaker specs you can translate them to the WinISD equivalent.



Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

I did 36 hours TWICE last year, once this year and I'm gona do it again a 2nd time this year  ;D

If they die they die.

But I'm not expecting them to tbh, I know its hard to convince you of that without you being there in person tho.

"Some basic ideas.  Front loaded cabinets have no gain and to get loud or low they need power and excursion.  Notice I said loud or low you can have one or the other with a front loaded cabinet, low efficiency drivers and relatively low power. "

Well I guess it depends on what you think is low, I think 30hz is easily hitable.

But you make a good point about a front loaded reflex cab, they are not known for spl increase like a horn path or compression would. I'm open to other designs like a bandpass but I don't want to trade a few db or spl for higher distortion ratio or a delayed bass note, thats the main reason why the front loaded reflex cab is a lure to me, they sound good, its not always about being the loudest, this point is double as true when your talking about close range listening.

One of the reasons I mentioned bandpass was due to this suggesting its qts of 0.58 would make a good bandpass sub:

"Are you wanting to build a subwoofer? A high output mid bass cabinet? How about a full range PA box? There are specific low frequency drivers for each of these needs. A speaker that is best for a subwoofer box would be a poor choice for a mid bass application. A full range box will require a completely different speaker. Once you understand how to look at parameter values, you can use them to find the best component for your own particular need.

The first parameter to look at is the Qts.
This particular parameter will show which category the speaker will be best for. Remember these are guidelines, and there are always exceptions. Usually you can go a little either way with your Qts values for each of these categories.

.40 and above. As you go higher in value above .40, your speaker will only have flat response in very large vented boxes or sealed boxes. .40 to .50 will usually work well in a sealed, vented band pass box. That is an enclosure with a sealed rear chamber and a vented front chamber. Usually the .45 to .55 area is best for this type of box.

.37 to .40. This category works well for larger subwoofer boxes where the box can go as low as possible, and it won’t be used above 80 to 100 Hz. These woofers tend to lack punchy mid bass detail but still respond quick enough in the low bass region.

.30 to .36. This category would be the best choice for a high output subwoofer where the box can reproduce low frequencies without having to use a lot of equalization. This is a good region for the bass speaker of a full range box. Band pass enclosures with vented chambers on either side of the driver like Qts values in this area. Values in .35 area will perform well in larger boxes and values in the .27 to .30 area will be best for smaller band pass boxes with a slightly higher low frequency limit.

.26 to .29. This range is ideal where box size is critical and you still desire to get flat response to your tuning frequency. If you choose a woofer with a Qts of lower than .27, added equalization will be required to get flat response to your tuning frequency. This is a good area for small, full range boxes and small subs.

.22 to .26. Speakers in this area are ideal for dedicated mid bass speakers and small bass cabinets where added equalization is required. There is nothing wrong with this approach. The lower the Qts, the quicker the cone can move. With some careful equalization, you can end up with a stunning subwoofer in a smaller box size.

.21 and below. This range would work well for a horn loaded mid bass speaker. It would also be good for a mid bass component in a direct radiating full range box. You will have hard time getting low bass out of any speaker with a Qts below the .20 area.

Whatever the value, Qts should not be the only parameter to consider in your box design. An understanding of how Fs [free air resonance] and Vas [volume of air that matches the suspension springiness of the cone assembly] will be required. Understanding how these figures interrelate will help in determining speaker selection. Below is an optimum box design chart.

Qts of your speaker
Multiply your Fs
by this number to
get the frequency
to tune your box at
Divide this number
into the Vas to
get the size to make
your box
Multiply this number by
your Fs to tell the -3db
down pint of your box"
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 15, 2018, 03:01:08 am


I did 36 hours TWICE last year, once this year and I'm gona do it again a 2nd time this year  ;D

If they die they die.

But I'm not expecting them to tbh, I know its hard to convince you of that without you being there in person tho.

"Some basic ideas.  Front loaded cabinets have no gain and to get loud or low they need power and excursion.  Notice I said loud or low you can have one or the other with a front loaded cabinet, low efficiency drivers and relatively low power. "

Well I guess it depends on what you think is low, I think 30hz is easily hitable.

But you make a good point about a front loaded reflex cab, they are not known for spl increase like a horn path or compression would. I'm open to other designs like a bandpass but I don't want to trade a few db or spl for higher distortion ratio or a delayed bass note, thats the main reason why the front loaded reflex cab is a lure to me, they sound good, its not always about being the loudest, this point is double as true when your talking about close range listening.



Well my $2500 touring double 18's are like 9db down at 30hz.  These had the entire engineering team of JBL/Harman behind them. 

The drivers are cast and employ a high tech suspension.

This is why I am skeptical.  If such a box could be made would you not think that someone would have done it?

There are some high efficiency subs, they don't use 18" drivers.  It takes power to move the extra mass and accelerate all that air.





Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Mike Spade on May 15, 2018, 03:07:46 am

Well my $2500 touring double 18's are like 9db down at 30hz.  These had the entire engineering team of JBL/Harman behind them. 

The drivers are cast and employ a high tech suspension.

This is why I am skeptical.  If such a box could be made would you not think that someone would have done it?

There are some high efficiency subs, they don't use 18" drivers.  It takes power to move the extra mass and accelerate all that air.





Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

They HAVE done it. Behold the VBSS:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/2226642-v-b-s-s-diy-subwoofer-design-thread.html

Its 17hz or 31hz depending on if you take out the middle section of the stock port tube.

Thats a $90 pa driver and a $300 amp, granted it only works due to the dsp in that amp.

So I mean its possible, you may not like it for what your doing, but its totaly possible to do with a cheap lower wattage driver.

Heres the settings used in the dsp so you can use it in other dsps aside of the inuke 3000 dsp.

VBSS-18 iNuke settings, EQ settings can also be used with other DSP's

Note settings should be the same for both channels, make sure you enter for both if you are using subs on both channels.
If using DSP other then Inuke convert DEQ settings to regular EQ settings and ignore the other variables.


-15Hz tuning
Configuration:

Bi-Amp1,
limiter=71.5Vp, hold=30ms, release=20ms

Filter/crossover:
Highpass 20hz Butterworth 12dB
Lowpass 250hz Butterworth 12dB

PEQ:
LowShelf12dB/oct 20hz +15dB (you can choose any unused filter for this, the rest can be used for room EQ)
 
DEQ:
Band 1
Gain 14dB, 20hz, Q=0.50, type BP, Threshold -27dB, attack 5ms, release 20ms, ratio 1:10
Band 2
Gain -10.5dB, 23hz, Q=0.90, type BP, Threshold -60dB, attack 5ms, release 20ms, ratio 1:10



-20Hz tuning
Configuration:

Bi-Amp1,
limiter=71.5Vp, hold=20ms, release=20ms

Filter/crossover:
Highpass 20hz Butterworth 12dB
Lowpass 250hz Butterworth 12dB

PEQ:
LS12 20hz +2dB (you can choose any unused filter for this, the rest can be used for room EQ)
 
DEQ:
Band 1
Gain 15dB, 20hz, Q=0.75, type BP, Threshold -33dB, attack 5ms, release 20ms, ratio 1:10
Band 2
Gain -1.5dB, 23hz, Q=3.00, type BP, Threshold -60dB, attack 5ms, release 20ms, ratio 1:2.0



-31Hz tuning
Configuration:

Bi-Amp1,
limiter=84Vp, hold=20ms, release=20ms

Filter/crossover:
Highpass 25hz Butterworth 18dB
Lowpass 300hz Butterworth 12dB
 
DEQ:
Band 1
Gain 6dB, 28hz, Q=1.00, type BP, Threshold -27dB, attack 5ms, release 20ms, ratio 1:10






~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I managed to get the driver into winisd, turns out the BL and QTS was slightly off in their specs, so after letting winisd auto, I was able to get the sub into winisd.

Looking at 4th order bandpass and vented reflex box atm and I'm not seeing bad results honestly, sure nothing thats gona keep up with 18sound drivers/cabs but totally usable down to 30hz.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 15, 2018, 07:55:23 am

So the price is what makes it trash? So your saying the 500w 18 I have in the orginal yorkville sw1000 that would cost me $450 is better then the $60 driver purely cuz of the price? Despite both playing around the same volume in the same cases with the same wattage?
There is a lot more going on than "simple specs", and very often, on the cheap drivers, the specs are VERY misleading.

If you are interested in simply watts, then hook up a toaster to the amplifier-but very loud, but it does "handle a lot of watts".

Regarding freq response, EVERY SINGLE speaker ever made will EASILY reproduce 1Hz.  Simply apply 1 hz and watch it move in and out-even tweeters.

That does not mean that it is loud, but they DO go down to 1Hz.

What you are concerned with is ACTUAL USABLE performance.

That is often quite different than the numbers presented.

My car can easily get 100 miles per gallon.  If I let it coast down a long hill.

That does not represent real driving conditions, but I CAN get that milage, under the special conditions of the measurement.

That is why you have to be careful with the "numbers"
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Matthias McCready on May 15, 2018, 08:20:23 am
They HAVE done it. Behold the VBSS:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/2226642-v-b-s-s-diy-subwoofer-design-thread.html

Its 17hz or 31hz depending on if you take out the middle section of the stock port tube.

Thats a $90 pa driver and a $300 amp, granted it only works due to the dsp in that amp.

So I mean its possible, you may not like it for what your doing, but its totaly possible to do with a cheap lower wattage driver.

I think you are confusing home audio and pro audio. With all due respect, they are not the same. I have an HSU Research subwoofer that can go down to 16hz (+/-2 db). It has a phenomenal low end, uses little wattage, and is as large as PA subwoofer, weighing in at 110Lb's. As it cost a $1,000 new, I can guarantee the driver is probably less than $100.

While it sounds good, goes low, and is great for home use, it is still NOT a Pro Audio Sub and to use it in such a manner would ruin it. It is not meant to cover bass for a large area, and it is not meant to be pushed as hard or for as long. A PA sub at an equivalent cost, might offer the same size driver and it would probably be lighter, it would not sound as good (not as detailed, accurate, punchy), but it would be up to the task. Pro Sound sacrifices quality for quantity, especially at the low end of the market, which is squarely where you sit (even with your capability to potentially build something above your normal budget).

Are there subs that can perform this stuff live? Yes, Meyer Sound, for example, makes a new element that is intended to reproduce 30-13hz, that costs upwards of 5 figures per sub and I can guarantee you cannot recreate it even if you spent decades trying to, like other brands, they have experts researching for decades. This comes down to a lot more than carpentry skill.

Mike, I am not trying to be mean, but you keep equating subs between car, home, and Pro Sound. These are not the same thing. Yes, they may have the same driver sizes. However, pro audio is very different from either of these.

If there is going to be a logical discussion going forward, where forum members can help you, you need to stop equating and making generalizing statements.

For example: Just because you like a cheaper driver in one instance does not mean that all expensive drivers are a waste of money.

Often when people offer you a scientific fact or a piece of advice which based solidly in physics, which behaves no differently in Canada, you take that as subjective opinion stating "that does not work for me."

Bottom line: Let's keep the science objective, not relative.  :)

EDIT: The entire point of experimentation and established science is that the steps are repeatable and that the results will be the same. If the results are not the same, then the means of the experiment have changed.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Lee Buckalew on May 15, 2018, 08:21:06 am
They HAVE done it. Behold the VBSS:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/2226642-v-b-s-s-diy-subwoofer-design-thread.html

Its 17hz or 31hz depending on if you take out the middle section of the stock port tube.

Thats a $90 pa driver and a $300 amp, granted it only works due to the dsp in that amp.

So I mean its possible, you may not like it for what your doing, but its totaly possible to do with a cheap lower wattage driver.

What Scott mentioned was you can't have both low and loud without increasing cost. 
The driver and cabinet combo that you have shown proves his point.  It can be tuned for low frequency output but, EQ'd flat it will have a peak SPL around 114 dB with a continuous SPL capability of around 108dB.  When you then consider that a typical tuning for rock, pop, etc. requires the sub frequencies to have a 15 dB haystack and some styles may even desire more than that you now have a sub that limits your system output to around 93dB/SPL, at 1 meter long term. That would be indoors.  Outdoors you would need even more subwoofer output to reach the same level.  Typically it is good practice to consider 2-4 times the number of subs for outdoors that you could use indoors.

So, how loud do you need to be at the listeners?
How far away are they from the speakers?

Lee
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Matthias McCready on May 15, 2018, 08:27:08 am
So, how loud do you need to be at the listeners?
How far away are they from the speakers?

Lee

This.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: David Allred on May 15, 2018, 08:57:33 am
"It's like deja vu all over again." - Yogi Berra
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Nathan Riddle on May 15, 2018, 09:26:37 am
In fear for my/our sanity I say this carefully.

I don't make money renting my equipment. This is a hobby gone wildly out of control to the point where I now have land and do monthly events on said land. So I mean cost matters to me.

I wish you had said this at the start.

Okay since everybody seems so concerned about my sound system and can't stay on subject, lets try this another way.

I have zero gear.
I have a limited budget so buying new higher powered subs or amps isn't a option.
I have limits on power draw so buying a new high wattage amp and 18s isn't a option even if I had the budget. I have been donated a 500w rms amp and two 600w rvp 18s.
I have unlimited storage so cab size doesn't matter, it doesn't need to be small or compact.
I want it to 30hz.
All designs are on the table, bandpass, orders, reflex ect.
I have unlimited wood and case building supplies.

These $60 ones where supposed to be "temp" drivers till I saved up for the $450 ones.

What kind of case would you make for these for sub bass above 30hz?
https://www.rockvilleaudio.com/rvp18w8/

My take? Build 3 boxes for 'fun' to test out and see how you like them.

Using your two drivers & amps:

Build the G Sub.
Build a Keystone sub.
Build a model in WinISD of your own design (whatever models well, try out 5 different types of subs in software for free (just time), and then build the one that looks awesome).

Then test out each, record a video, if you had a measurement mic post TF traces and report back here. I'm sure the community here would love to see your thoughts on all three and see the traces.

I'm definitely curious.

Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Art Welter on May 15, 2018, 01:07:02 pm

1)Lets pretend I have limits on power draw so buying a new high wattage amp and 18s isn't a option even if I had the budget.
2)Lets pretend I have been donated a 500w rms amp and two 600w rvp 18s.
3)Lets pretend I have unlimited storage so cab size doesn't matter, it doesn't need to be small or compact.
4)Lets pretend I wanted it to go as low as 30hz.
5)Lets pretend all designs are on the table, bandpass, orders, reflex ect.
6)Lets pretend you got unlimited wood and case building supplies.
7)What kind of case would you make for these for sub bass above 30hz?
https://www.rockvilleaudio.com/rvp18w8/
8)Would you use a bass reflex design like yorkvilles sw1000 or communitys s218 or "the gsub"? If not, why not?
9)Would you use a different or more compact design like a sb1000? If not, why?
10)Do you know of any already made dual 18 cases made by any manufacturer that is around the same wattage of 1000-1200w rms with good results?
1)A class D amp could draw less than 50% of the power of an older design, for instance a Behringer NU4-6000 can put out over 3600 watts drawing 31 amps, while a Crest CA9 drew 37.8 amps while putting out only 1600 watts.
2)Ok, we work with what we got.
3) Bigger is better for bass.
4) A lot more bigger for a few lower Hz..
5) Take off all but horns if you want loud and low with just two cheap 18". If you use multiple bass-reflex cabinets and drivers wired in series-parallel, you can achieve similar efficiency, but violates premise #2.
6) OK, good- you'll need them.
7) I'd design a huge dual 18" FLH horn in Hornresp with an FC of 30 Hz, and surround it with wings/barn doors (sheets of plywood) to increase forward gain. The horn would be so large it would be built in at least two parts.
8)No, see #5.
9) No, see #5.
10) No, most designs are made to either be small and cheap, or small and louder with more cost.

Cheers,
Art

Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Mike Spade on May 15, 2018, 04:27:10 pm
1)A class D amp could draw less than 50% of the power of an older design, for instance a Behringer NU4-6000 can put out over 3600 watts drawing 31 amps, while a Crest CA9 drew 37.8 amps while putting out only 1600 watts.
2)Ok, we work with what we got.
3) Bigger is better for bass.
4) A lot more bigger for a few lower Hz..
5) Take off all but horns if you want loud and low with just two cheap 18". If you use multiple bass-reflex cabinets and drivers wired in series-parallel, you can achieve similar efficiency, but violates premise #2.
6) OK, good- you'll need them.
7) I'd design a huge dual 18" FLH horn in Hornresp with an FC of 30 Hz, and surround it with wings/barn doors (sheets of plywood) to increase forward gain. The horn would be so large it would be built in at least two parts.
8)No, see #5.
9) No, see #5.
10) No, most designs are made to either be small and cheap, or small and louder with more cost.

Cheers,
Art

Thanks for taking the time to address this and add something constrictive instead of just simply telling me to give up like others have been.

The problem I have with horns is the delay path and how most of them when turned up don't actually sound like the note it was intended to play imo. The delay alone is worth not building them since I get alot of scratch djs on my system, meaning there needs to be no delay between their headphones and the sound system itself.

Quality of bass > extra db/spl

We're not trying to hit them 50-200 feet back, we're trying to hit them 1-20-40 feet in front of the speakers, not a hard task, so I think I could get away with it.

You bring up a valid enough point about 30hz but its not something I need to be 100+ db at 30hz, if it rolls off at 70-90 that should be good enough for that range ?

To be clear if these sound good when made, I have no problem stacking 16+ of them.

From what I can see of these drivers 40-80-90 range is where all its volume is.

I tried to attached more accurate specs/ts of the drivers so everybody can better see what we're dealing with or try it themselves.... but there is a 512kb limit on images so I've uploaded them on a image hosting website:
https://ibb.co/jiaGrJ <--- ts mathed out
https://ibb.co/mTifJy <--- hornresp
https://ibb.co/hizLJy <--- ts specs in winisd

I think you are confusing home audio and pro audio. With all due respect, they are not the same. I have an HSU Research subwoofer that can go down to 16hz (+/-2 db). It has a phenomenal low end, uses little wattage, and is as large as PA subwoofer, weighing in at 110Lb's. As it cost a $1,000 new, I can guarantee the driver is probably less than $100.

While it sounds good, goes low, and is great for home use, it is still NOT a Pro Audio Sub and to use it in such a manner would ruin it. It is not meant to cover bass for a large area, and it is not meant to be pushed as hard or for as long. A PA sub at an equivalent cost, might offer the same size driver and it would probably be lighter, it would not sound as good (not as detailed, accurate, punchy), but it would be up to the task. Pro Sound sacrifices quality for quantity, especially at the low end of the market, which is squarely where you sit (even with your capability to potentially build something above your normal budget).

Are there subs that can perform this stuff live? Yes, Meyer Sound, for example, makes a new element that is intended to reproduce 30-13hz, that costs upwards of 5 figures per sub and I can guarantee you cannot recreate it even if you spent decades trying to, like other brands, they have experts researching for decades. This comes down to a lot more than carpentry skill.

Mike, I am not trying to be mean, but you keep equating subs between car, home, and Pro Sound. These are not the same thing. Yes, they may have the same driver sizes. However, pro audio is very different from either of these.

If there is going to be a logical discussion going forward, where forum members can help you, you need to stop equating and making generalizing statements.

For example: Just because you like a cheaper driver in one instance does not mean that all expensive drivers are a waste of money.

Often when people offer you a scientific fact or a piece of advice which based solidly in physics, which behaves no differently in Canada, you take that as subjective opinion stating "that does not work for me."

Bottom line: Let's keep the science objective, not relative.  :)

EDIT: The entire point of experimentation and established science is that the steps are repeatable and that the results will be the same. If the results are not the same, then the means of the experiment have changed.

"I think you are confusing home audio and pro audio. "

Not sure if I agree, the VBSS is a $90 dayton PA driver, its not a home audio driver. Sure home audio people may be using it, but the driver itself is designed for PA use, so is the inuke 3000 and the dsp in it.

So what part makes it a home audio sub then? I mean I've seen tons of vented front loaded subs with two circle ports before, hell I owned come create ones years ago that had 4 circle ports, one in each corner, I don't think its the circle port that makes it home audio cuz its commonly used in PA.

The shape? The shape looks the same as other PA subwoofers, I've seen a 21 built with nearly the exact same shape (taller then wide, deeper then wide) but it had one large circle port instead of two. Hell yorkville just came out with a self powered 18 to replace their ls801p's that is nearly the exact same shape, tall, deep, skinny sides, bottom ported, I think its called ES18P.

So if its not the driver, its not the port and its not the shape... This is a home audio sub cuz people are using it for home audio?

So if I buy a pair of JBL PA dual 18s and use them for home audio, they are home audio subs now?

I don't think its I who is confused here, or if I am can you better explain your stance since your statement makes no sense.

I'm sure your 1000w subwoofer is the cats ass, do I have the budget for that? No. I mean for that same price I could have 10-15+ rvp 18s. If I had unlimited money, unlimited power and powersoft power amps then I'd be buying 18sound drivers, but none of this is reality so I'm working within my limitations of price, genny power limits and current amps I already own.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Don T. Williams on May 15, 2018, 05:10:03 pm
Thanks for taking the time to address this and add something constrictive instead of just simply telling me to give up like others have been.

Quality of bass > extra db/spl

We're not trying to hit them 50-200 feet back, we're trying to hit them 1-20-40 feet in front of the speakers, not a hard task, so I think I could get away with it.

You bring up a valid enough point about 30hz but its not something I need to be 100+ db at 30hz, if it rolls off at 70-90 that should be good enough for that range ?

To be clear if these sound good when made, I have no problem stacking 16+ of them.

From what I can see of these drivers 40-80-90 range is where all its volume is.

I tried to attached more accurate specs/ts of the drivers so everybody can better see what we're dealing with or try it themselves.... but there is a 512kb limit on images so I've uploaded them on a image hosting website:
https://ibb.co/jiaGrJ <--- ts mathed out
https://ibb.co/mTifJy <--- hornresp
https://ibb.co/hizLJy <--- ts specs in winisd

So you really don't need it to provide "usable" 30 Hz, just some hint of 30 Hz.  Your design will provide exactly that and I think work well for you.  You don't have to transport it and make it rugged for the road, you have unlimited storage space, and no tech rider requirements.  I wish I didn't have those problems.

It's you money, do what want.  It seems you want the forum to affirm that your idea is the best idea for you.  It IS!
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 15, 2018, 05:12:26 pm
Thanks for taking the time to address this and add something constrictive instead of just simply telling me to give up like others have been.

The problem I have with horns is the delay path and how most of them when turned up don't actually sound like the note it was intended to play imo. The delay alone is worth not building them since I get alot of scratch djs on my system, meaning there needs to be no delay between their headphones and the sound system itself.

Quality of bass > extra db/spl

We're not trying to hit them 50-200 feet back, we're trying to hit them 1-20-40 feet in front of the speakers, not a hard task, so I think I could get away with it.

You bring up a valid enough point about 30hz but its not something I need to be 100+ db at 30hz, if it rolls off at 70-90 that should be good enough for that range ?

To be clear if these sound good when made, I have no problem stacking 16+ of them.

From what I can see of these drivers 40-80-90 range is where all its volume is.

I tried to attached more accurate specs/ts of the drivers so everybody can better see what we're dealing with or try it themselves.... but there is a 512kb limit on images so I've uploaded them on a image hosting website:
https://ibb.co/jiaGrJ <--- ts mathed out
https://ibb.co/mTifJy <--- hornresp
https://ibb.co/hizLJy <--- ts specs in winisd

"I think you are confusing home audio and pro audio. "

Not sure if I agree, the VBSS is a $90 dayton PA driver, its not a home audio driver. Sure home audio people may be using it, but the driver itself is designed for PA use, so is the inuke 3000 and the dsp in it.

So what part makes it a home audio sub then? I mean I've seen tons of vented front loaded subs with two circle ports before, hell I owned come create ones years ago that had 4 circle ports, one in each corner, I don't think its the circle port that makes it home audio cuz its commonly used in PA.

The shape? The shape looks the same as other PA subwoofers, I've seen a 21 built with nearly the exact same shape (taller then wide, deeper then wide) but it had one large circle port instead of two. Hell yorkville just came out with a self powered 18 to replace their ls801p's that is nearly the exact same shape, tall, deep, skinny sides, bottom ported, I think its called ES18P.

So if its not the driver, its not the port and its not the shape... This is a home audio sub cuz people are using it for home audio?

So if I buy a pair of JBL PA dual 18s and use them for home audio, they are home audio subs now?

I don't think its I who is confused here, or if I am can you better explain your stance since your statement makes no sense.

I'm sure your 1000w subwoofer is the cats ass, do I have the budget for that? No. I mean for that same price I could have 10-15+ rvp 18s. If I had unlimited money, unlimited power and powersoft power amps then I'd be buying 18sound drivers, but none of this is reality so I'm working within my limitations of price, genny power limits and current amps I already own.

The home part is the low output.  Not construction per se. 

Now you just changed your design to a sub that starts to roll off @ 70hz?  So you want to build a one note wonder?

Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Mike Spade on May 15, 2018, 05:36:04 pm
In fear for my/our sanity I say this carefully.

I wish you had said this at the start.

What kind of case would you make for these for sub bass above 30hz?
https://www.rockvilleaudio.com/rvp18w8/


My take? Build 3 boxes for 'fun' to test out and see how you like them.

Using your two drivers & amps:

Build the G Sub.
Build a Keystone sub.
Build a model in WinISD of your own design (whatever models well, try out 5 different types of subs in software for free (just time), and then build the one that looks awesome).

Then test out each, record a video, if you had a measurement mic post TF traces and report back here. I'm sure the community here would love to see your thoughts on all three and see the traces.

I'm definitely curious.

Currently? I'm in winisd crunching numbers between a vented case and a 4th order bandpass with decent results. Nothing to call 18sound about but hey for the price I paid if they don't bust into a ball of fire or change the note magically into a fart, I'll be happy if I'm getting anything near what I'm looking at.

I mean whats my alternative? Buying mdf cases that are already built from peavey/behringer/pyle pro ect that will end up costing me more then I could make myself, with lower quality wood then I'd use myself, plus won't be the dual 18 I actually want and won't be any better quality then what I'm doing. I know 1-2 grand for a single sub is casual play for you guys but thats not my budget. I can't think of anything more budget friendly then using speakers you already own to build a case and if it sounds good, I can always build/buy another one. If not I can throw out some cheap wood, its low risk, low investment, high reward, I see no reason not to try.

I got some folks helping me on some other forums with the planning, I'm a good woodworker myself and have space to do it so again its just a matter of crunching numbers, coming up with a game plan in the most educated way possible given the information open to me and then trying it.

I like the idea of the 4th order bandpass and from what I can see I'm getting a flatter wider hz range with it. I'm sure as time goes on and ideas are passed around this will be refined more.

You may care to look at these, hornresp/winisd
https://ibb.co/jiaGrJ
https://ibb.co/mTifJy
https://ibb.co/hizLJy

There is a lot more going on than "simple specs", and very often, on the cheap drivers, the specs are VERY misleading.

If you are interested in simply watts, then hook up a toaster to the amplifier-but very loud, but it does "handle a lot of watts".

Regarding freq response, EVERY SINGLE speaker ever made will EASILY reproduce 1Hz.  Simply apply 1 hz and watch it move in and out-even tweeters.

That does not mean that it is loud, but they DO go down to 1Hz.

What you are concerned with is ACTUAL USABLE performance.

That is often quite different than the numbers presented.

My car can easily get 100 miles per gallon.  If I let it coast down a long hill.

That does not represent real driving conditions, but I CAN get that milage, under the special conditions of the measurement.

That is why you have to be careful with the "numbers"

I agree with most of what you've said, the BL and QTS was slightly off (like 0.01 off but thats enough to stop winisd)

I think the issue everybody here is stuck on is when I say 30hz is my low cut, they assume I want it flat till 30hz or  90-100+dp at 30hz when thats not what I mean at all, I don't mind if thats just where the rolloff lands, even 70 db is good enough to feel at close range while having larger spl in the rest of the note, I mean most EDM producers write their stuff around 50hz for that chest hit feel.

I cut my current subs from 30-150, I used to do 0-80 with 2 1kw b52 subs a buddy of mine had, till he blew one running 2 on a bridged ep2500 lol then got another, and blew that one on a inuke-6000 he was planning on stacking b52s on. Gona be honest donno if I'd ever buy a b52 driver but the lure of it was how low it went, I mean the b52 was lower rumble for sure but we lost that 50-100-120hz range and overall spl that I'm getting with these lower wattage drivers (I was able to put them head to head and we played them together in the same wall so we could do things like stand centered in front, bout 20 feet back and have the other turn them on/off then turn the others on/of, they sounded nice together since each had something the other was missing, thats why we did it, you could for sure tell when either was turned off so the 2k in b52s did not overpower the 4x 500w 18s to the point of not being able to tell when they got turned off).. I plan on getting a dbx 260 to be able to do a better job with my subs and be able to do a better job with hz cuts+eqing, but atm thats what I've been doing.

I'm also planning on buying the rta mic to go with the driverack 260 so I can start giving you guys examples instead of my word that you refuse to take lol.

"What you are concerned with is ACTUAL USABLE performance"
Right!

However I have some limits on that, such as:
1) the amp I already own
2) the speakers I already own

So I'm not talking about toasters here, I'm talking about a very exact situation with a very exact driver and trying not to get derailed into the "other drivers, other amps, other things are better. Don't bother" trap.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 15, 2018, 05:40:10 pm
even 70 db is good enough to feel at close range

When you say things like this it's hard to take you seriously.  I can fart louder than 70db (seriously, that's below ambient city noise).

BTW-I didn't pay list for my JBL Double 18's I was patient and bought them used at an average cost delivered of $1200.00 
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Art Welter on May 15, 2018, 05:53:52 pm
1)The problem I have with horns is the delay path and how most of them when turned up don't actually sound like the note it was intended to play imo.
2)The delay alone is worth not building them since I get alot of scratch djs on my system, meaning there needs to be no delay between their headphones and the sound system itself.
3)We're not trying to hit them 50-200 feet back, we're trying to hit them 1-20-40 feet in front of the speakers, not a hard task, so I think I could get away with it.
4)You bring up a valid enough point about 30hz but its not something I need to be 100+ db at 30hz, if it rolls off at 70-90 that should be good enough for that range ?
5)To be clear if these sound good when made, I have no problem stacking 16+ of them.
Mike,

1) Horns, like bass reflex cabinets, can be designed with different frequency responses, if they are not designed for flat response, they will need EQ to sound like the input.
2) To have "no delay" would mean that any cabinet you use must be located at the same position as the headphones. That ain't going to happen. A 30 Hz horn would be the equivalent of moving the speaker around another 10 feet further from the DJ than using a front loaded cabinet. No big deal, you hear the headphones louder because they arrive first..
A big horn could use 10dB less power to achieve the same SPL as a BR- your cost (other than wood) is 10 times less for drivers and amplifiers to achieve the same level.
3)The difference between 40 feet and 160 feet is 12 dB, so obviously you can get by with less..
4) At 30 Hz, a 6 dB difference sounds more than twice or half as loud.
5) Fine, every doubling of cabinets and drivers gets you another 3 dB using the same amount of power.
Putting your cabinets next to your building will increase output by 3-6 dB, an advantage not usually available outdoors.

The driver you propose only has about 5mm Xmax. It is a good $$value for the excursion, but pros would prefer to use drivers with around 15mm excursion, so they would only have to lug 1/3 the amount of cabinets to achieve the same output level.

At any rate, take Bjorno's design advice and get on with it, "girl" ;^).

Art
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Mike Spade on May 15, 2018, 05:56:42 pm
The home part is the low output.  Not construction per se. 

Now you just changed your design to a sub that starts to roll off @ 70hz?  So you want to build a one note wonder?

"The home part is the low output. "

What part the 17hz or the 31hz?

Cuz we're talking about 30hz I thought, so if you take out the middle part of the stock port tube it tunes to 31hz.

Isn't that now the exact PA range we're talking about?

"Now you just changed your design to a sub that starts to roll off @ 70hz?  So you want to build a one note wonder?"

I'd be happy with something flat as possible 40-50 to 100 maybe higher.

I mean most edm is around 50 or 80  from what I can see being played around here (I can see my eq knobs flash or hold lights when that hz band is active), as in peaks in the 50s range and the 80s range not that i want to have something between around 70hz playing one note that isn't either of them.

When you say things like this it's hard to take you seriously.  I can fart louder than 70db (seriously, that's below ambient city noise).

BTW-I didn't pay list for my JBL Double 18's I was patient and bought them used at an average cost delivered of $1200.00

Okay that seems like a great deal, even more so if they are powered it would be a steal.

Can you get another pair for the same price? How about a 3d pair?

I hope you see where I'm going with this. I'd like my system to all eventually be uniform. Aiming for a large/wide note festival setup not a 2 cab wonder system for bands. I think we're looking at this from completely different points of view.

The bandpass box I'm playing around with atm says 112.5db at 30hz, a pretty loud fart! 120db at 37hz peaking 122db at 42hz till 122db at 97hz, falling 112.5db at 138hz

Greatest thing to ever exist? no. Should I call 18sound to tell em about it? Prob not. But with some eqing and redesigning (this is rough design from 1 day of crunching) I think I could do something half decent with this.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Mike Spade on May 15, 2018, 06:48:05 pm
Mike,

1) Horns, like bass reflex cabinets, can be designed with different frequency responses, if they are not designed for flat response, they will need EQ to sound like the input.
2) To have "no delay" would mean that any cabinet you use must be located at the same position as the headphones. That ain't going to happen. A 30 Hz horn would be the equivalent of moving the speaker around another 10 feet further from the DJ than using a front loaded cabinet. No big deal, you hear the headphones louder because they arrive first..
A big horn could use 10dB less power to achieve the same SPL as a BR- your cost (other than wood) is 10 times less for drivers and amplifiers to achieve the same level.
3)The difference between 40 feet and 160 feet is 12 dB, so obviously you can get by with less..
4) At 30 Hz, a 6 dB difference sounds more than twice or half as loud.
5) Fine, every doubling of cabinets and drivers gets you another 3 dB using the same amount of power.
Putting your cabinets next to your building will increase output by 3-6 dB, an advantage not usually available outdoors.

The driver you propose only has about 5mm Xmax. It is a good $$value for the excursion, but pros would prefer to use drivers with around 15mm excursion, so they would only have to lug 1/3 the amount of cabinets to achieve the same output level.

At any rate, take Bjorno's design advice and get on with it, "girl" ;^).

Art

The delay I'm talking about is the ADDITIONAL delay from the horn path. Regular delay from speaker to dj doesn't seem to be a issue, but once upon a time I was doing a collab with another guy who hooked up some folded horns into the setup and cuz of the delays on it, it sounded as if every dj was slightly off in their mixing since I didn't have my equipment on a delay to match. This also fucked with the djs more then the regular delay from speakers to dj would be, some minor delay is doable but there comes a point where you can notice it, scratch djs really hated it, house djs just did everything in their headphones.

Thats what I'm trying to avoid.

Plus I felt like his folded horns changed the note into something other then what the producer meant for it to sound like, growls, dnb and dub, the details got lost.

"The driver you propose only has about 5mm Xmax. It is a good $$value for the excursion, but pros would prefer to use drivers with around 15mm excursion, so they would only have to lug 1/3 the amount of cabinets to achieve the same output level."

If I can get 4+ of the drivers for less then 1 then in theory I'm up overall and have a wider bassnote.

"3)The difference between 40 feet and 160 feet is 12 dB, so obviously you can get by with less.."

This is more or less my point: I don't need insane 32 inch m-force subs for people who are within 40 feet (in fact they advised to me that you rope it off so nobodys within 20 feet lol)

"At any rate, take Bjorno's design advice and get on with it, "girl" ;^)."

I plan on crunching some numbers and getting some feedback across a few different forums before I actually cut any wood but I fully intend to build some cases. I'm not the only person locally to me on this quest either, I know 2 other people with these drivers trying to do the same thing so I think between us we'll come up with something that works and be able to put different designs verse each other.

So you really don't need it to provide "usable" 30 Hz, just some hint of 30 Hz.  Your design will provide exactly that and I think work well for you.  You don't have to transport it and make it rugged for the road, you have unlimited storage space, and no tech rider requirements.  I wish I didn't have those problems.

It's you money, do what want.  It seems you want the forum to affirm that your idea is the best idea for you.  It IS!

" It seems you want the forum to affirm that your idea is the best idea for you."

What? Lol
No.

I'm asking the forums to try and help me get the most out of a cheap driver I already have, with the power I already have.

You guys must have used a wide range of cabs over the years, I know I have in the last 10+ years of doing this. So I was honestly hope'n to talk to someone who may have used a sb1000 or some other lower wattage cab designs who would have a opinion or some feedback about this from experience instead of just scoffing at the idea when we're talking about just buying some wood. I mean I don't understand why you think I don't need to make them tour ready, I've said multiple times I don't want to buy cheap mdf cabs and would prefer to use birch, birch with line-x on it and metal corners is what is on your JBL's so why is that not good enough for my cabs? I mean I've torn carpit off cabs and put line-x on them, hell I've even put line-x on mdf cabs and it turned that crap into something that survives being thrown around by roadies. I think your confused about what this is about and are too focused on the price of the drivers as if the birch or line x is somehow lower grade cuz of the speaker.

Kinda one of those situations where if you got nothing constructive to add why are you even posting here?
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 15, 2018, 08:02:00 pm
The delay I'm talking about is the ADDITIONAL delay from the horn path. Regular delay from speaker to dj doesn't seem to be a issue, but once upon a time I was doing a collab with another guy who hooked up some folded horns into the setup and cuz of the delays on it, it sounded as if every dj was slightly off in their mixing since I didn't have my equipment on a delay to match. This also fucked with the djs more then the regular delay from speakers to dj would be, some minor delay is doable but there comes a point where you can notice it, scratch djs really hated it, house djs just did everything in their headphones.

Thats what I'm trying to avoid.

Plus I felt like his folded horns changed the note into something other then what the producer meant for it to sound like, growls, dnb and dub, the details got lost.


Most DJ's want monitors.  However I just don't see how 10ft of horn path is going to be any different than if the stage was 10' deeper. 

As far as not delaying the mains, that's just fucked up.  Behringer Shark's are like $50.00 so there is just no excuse.  You had to have a mess in the crossover region.

Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Mike Spade on May 15, 2018, 08:34:41 pm
Most DJ's want monitors.  However I just don't see how 10ft of horn path is going to be any different than if the stage was 10' deeper. 

As far as not delaying the mains, that's just fucked up.  Behringer Shark's are like $50.00 so there is just no excuse.  You had to have a mess in the crossover region.

Yeah djs obviously get monitors.  ???

Are you suggesting djs should have horn monitors next to their headphones? Cuz if not then your really talking about 10 foot of horn path and 10 foot to get to the dj, thats 20 feet. Say what you will but I disliked adding delay to the system it didn't make sense to me so we never got those folded horns back out again.

I don't need to run a delay on my mains since they are bass reflex, front loaded vented cabs same as everything else, there is very little if any delay from each other so as long as they are playing with each other, the delay to the dj isn't big enough to be mentioning. However the horn delay is worth mentioning since the rest of my system is not on delay and the added delay is hard to ignore. For example, the same guy with horns would run delays on the rest of his speakers so they played at the same time as his horns so djs would be forced to mix in their headphones and again hated it, this was at gigs with just his gear.

Not really here to get into a delay arguement but I guess here we are.... From my experience with horns its not worth it since you lose detail in your low end growls, dub and dnb that you get to keep with front loaded vented reflex cases. That and the delay that would force me to delay the rest of my system, making it less responsive for people who used it just seems like a bad trade off for a few spl. I'd rather sound good instead of loud, again we're talking about 1-20-40 foot listening range not 160 feet out.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Luke Geis on May 15, 2018, 11:22:17 pm
Typically you need to delay the mains to the subs regardless of being horn loaded or direct radiating. The crossover type usually has a phase shift of between 90* to as great as 720* depending on filter type used. 360* phase shift isn't as bad, since it puts the subs one full cycle behind the mains. With a 12db per octave filter and the subsequent 180* phase shift, most will just run the subs in reverse polarity. This can often address that issue and in both cases, you are in phase, but 1/2 or 1 whole cycle behind in time. Not ideal.

Now that phase shift assumes that the mains and subs are in essentially the same space and plane. Most people ground stack PA systems, so this phase shift will be more evident. When the Main Pa is " in the sky " and the subs on the ground, the distance between them can often change that relation even more. Sometimes for the better, and sometimes nowhere even close. Now I won't argue whether it is correct to align the mains to the subs or not, because that pretty much answers itself......

Our predominate job is to do no harm. In essence we should strive as much as possible to reproduce sound that is as accurate and true as it can be. This means not short cutting certain aspects of what we do. Budget is usually our largest enemy, followed by client / event coordinators and venue logistics keeping us from setting up as we would wish to. The physics can't be changed or argued, so anything that goes against the physics is working against us. Ideally we want to design a system that allows the physics to work in our favor, greatly improving system performance. Cheap speakers don't help.

Horn loaded subs are great at certain things that direct radiating subs can't even compete with. However there are certain things that direct radiating subs excel at as well. Which type to use is part of the system design process. Neither is a perfect tool. In your case you want to build an inexpensive sub, with an inexpensive speaker.  More power to you, but don't tell us that you intend to make an inferior product, that you also intend to neglect even the most basic system setup procedures as well.

The most popular EDM, dub and rave systems typically utilize Function 1 and the like, which are predominately horn loaded systems. As to how good a PA sounds vs how loud it gets is a subjective debate. Lets just say that a million dollar PA can play just as quiet as a $1,000 system. Low headroom systems ( inexpensive ) often don't sound good and even more often don't sound good when loud. You can EQ to your hearts content, but that is only masking the underlying issue. Furthermore, heavy use of EQ reduces peak SPL potential while also causing other phase related issues. A system is only as good as its weakest part.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Matthias McCready on May 16, 2018, 09:08:38 am
Not sure if I agree, the VBSS is a $90 dayton PA driver, its not a home audio driver. Sure home audio people may be using it, but the driver itself is designed for PA use, so is the inuke 3000 and the dsp in it.

So what part makes it a home audio sub then? I mean I've seen tons of vented front loaded subs with two circle ports before, hell I owned come create ones years ago that had 4 circle ports, one in each corner, I don't think its the circle port that makes it home audio cuz its commonly used in PA.

Yes, it is using a "PA Driver" however the type of driver does not itself define the function of the speaker, the design of the box does as well in addition to other factors. This is more than looks (ports, basic layout etc). You could try using one of these if you wish, but I do not believe it (or a wall of them) would be loud enough for your intended usage. In a living room, I am sure that is a great sub, but its intended purpose is different than your needs. If you are on a budget this would not be a good approach.


So if its not the driver, its not the port and its not the shape... This is a home audio sub cuz people are using it for home audio?

So if I buy a pair of JBL PA dual 18s and use them for home audio, they are home audio subs now?


No and no, using something at home does not make it consumer audio, just as using something in a larger capacity does not make it pro audio.

Yes, they can look similar, and there is even some driver crossover between the markets. However, it is the intended usage that defines the type of speaker, again not the driver itself. If you want to try using home audio products for this, by all means, try, in the end, you would find you would have low output and a plethora of blown drivers.

For example, it is fairly inexpensive to get a home listening system that is reasonably flat and accurate, however, PA is designed with one primary purpose, to be loud and to do what your home speaker cannot. It takes a lot of money to get the power of PA rig and to get close to how good a home system can sound.

You can, of course, put PA speakers in a home, it does not magically change their function. They still usually have a hiss from the amplification (very noticeable in a small space) and will be intended for volume and not fidelity or clarity.

...none of this is the reality, so I'm working within my limitations of price, genny power limits and current amps I already own.

If resources are limited, this is all the more reason the process of designing and building subs should be done intentionally, based solely on what your needs are, coverage and SPL. If establish your goals and you use designs which are intended to meet them, you will get good results and should be able to keep using your amps and generators.

It certainly sounds like you can build this stuff. In the end building speakers can be very enjoyable and rewarding experience, however, some homework on the front will save a lot of headache and extraneous cost. I am not advocating that you do not build by any means, only that you consider your intended goals and that you have a healthy respect for the art and science of cab construction.

Also, a well-designed sub, properly processed and deployed will play notes accurately, if this is not occurring look back at the previous steps.

Art Welter, a skilled speaker designer and builder, and Luke Geis are giving you some solid advice.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: David Winners on May 16, 2018, 12:21:53 pm
Mr. Welter,

How would that little driver fair in a Keystone?

I'm currently having 4 Keystone cabinets built for me by a cabinet shop. Can't wait to get them loaded up and rocking.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Art Welter on May 16, 2018, 02:53:14 pm
Mr. Welter,

How would that little driver fair in a Keystone?

I'm currently having 4 Keystone cabinets built for me by a cabinet shop. Can't wait to get them loaded up and rocking.
David,

The Rockville RVP18W8 has a fairly weak motor (18.7 Bl) for horn use, and the 5mm Xmax is anemic. Its output potential would be at least 10dB less in the low end than a B&C18SW115-4 in the Keystone.
At 35 Hz, it might take all four RVP18W8 loaded cabinets to equal one
loaded with a B&C18SW115-4.

That said, it would fill the empty holes, and be around 6 dB louder than it would be in a bass reflex, and have about an octave more bandwidth than the band-pass design the OP is "playing" with.

Cheers,
Art

Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: David Winners on May 16, 2018, 07:18:45 pm
David,

The Rockville RVP18W8 has a fairly weak motor (18.7 Bl) for horn use, and the 5mm Xmax is anemic. Its output potential would be at least 10dB less in the low end than a B&C18SW115-4 in the Keystone.
At 35 Hz, it might take all four RVP18W8 loaded cabinets to equal one
loaded with a B&C18SW115-4.

That said, it would fill the empty holes, and be around 6 dB louder than it would be in a bass reflex, and have about an octave more bandwidth than the band-pass design the OP is "playing" with.

Cheers,
Art

That's about what I was thinking.

I'd rather spend money on drivers than plywood, haul and store fewer subs, and have my subs loafing along instead of running on the ragged edge.

The BC18TBW100-4 is $343 from Parts Express. Unless birch plywood is free, it would be cheaper to build 4 Keystones and buy 2 NU6000dsp than to build a pile (16) of cabinets with $60 drivers.

Add a couple barn doors and you would be all set for EDM at 40'.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Geert Friedhof on May 16, 2018, 07:32:29 pm
How much is a sheet of 3/4" birch B/BB plywood? And PU paint? And mesh metal? And handles? Etc etc.

Been there, done it. Never again.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on May 16, 2018, 08:14:29 pm
How much is a sheet of 3/4" birch B/BB plywood? And PU paint? And mesh metal? And handles? Etc etc.

Been there, done it. Never again.

3/4" 5x5 BB, $37 per sheet.  Duratex 1 gallon shipped $75. Handles, hardware, etc $50. 
Mesh for grills?  I agree, bane of building subs  ;)

I get where you're coming from...

And I've come to the conclusion that unless I'm trying to build a killer sub with great drivers... there's nothing to be saved..... & never again.

That said, if I want a killer sub and save alot of money, .....  I still think DIY rules.
And I guess maybe even more relevant, I enjoy the challenge of designing and building something that has the hope of more....
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: David Winners on May 16, 2018, 09:25:10 pm

That said, if I want a killer sub and save alot of money, .....  I still think DIY rules.
And I guess maybe even more relevant, I enjoy the challenge of designing and building something that has the hope of more....

I decided to give 4 Keystones a shot for this reason. I'm not satisfying any riders. I want more sub for outdoor shows, but I can't justify a JTR or Danley rig quite yet.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: drew gandy on July 25, 2018, 12:08:46 pm
3/4" 5x5 BB, $37 per sheet. 

Where might I find this deal? 

Another thought for this unfortunate thread: Would it take more than one sheet to complete one subwoofer?  5x5 is 25 sq ft.  4x8 is 32 sq ft.  I'm expecting at least 40 sq ft for an "18" sub".

Lastly, although a manufacturer of quality transducers, I wouldn't necessarily set 18 Sound as the unique gold standard for bass drivers.  But if you do buy their products, you might get to deal with the best Sales and Operations Manager in the business, since 18 Sound was acquired by B&C earlier this year...   ;)
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 25, 2018, 04:09:40 pm
Where might I find this deal? 

Another thought for this unfortunate thread: Would it take more than one sheet to complete one subwoofer?  5x5 is 25 sq ft.  4x8 is 32 sq ft.  I'm expecting at least 40 sq ft for an "18" sub".

Lastly, although a manufacturer of quality transducers, I wouldn't necessarily set 18 Sound as the unique gold standard for bass drivers.  But if you do buy their products, you might get to deal with the best Sales and Operations Manager in the business, since 18 Sound was acquired by B&C earlier this year...   ;)

That clever Prescott fellow?
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on July 25, 2018, 06:44:12 pm
Where might I find this deal? 

Another thought for this unfortunate thread: Would it take more than one sheet to complete one subwoofer?  5x5 is 25 sq ft.  4x8 is 32 sq ft.  I'm expecting at least 40 sq ft for an "18" sub".

Lastly, although a manufacturer of quality transducers, I wouldn't necessarily set 18 Sound as the unique gold standard for bass drivers.  But if you do buy their products, you might get to deal with the best Sales and Operations Manager in the business, since 18 Sound was acquired by B&C earlier this year...   ;)

Try going to cabinet makers' supply houses.  They are usually wholesale only, but if you go in and just say "I hear BB is the best wood to build some loudspeakers with".....well, dudes somehow sympathize with speaker building and you may get the pricing/service you could only hope for...

How many sheets...uh, do the math, right?

Heck yeah, B&C  :)
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on July 25, 2018, 08:06:05 pm


Lastly, although a manufacturer of quality transducers, I wouldn't necessarily set 18 Sound as the unique gold standard for bass drivers.  But if you do buy their products, you might get to deal with the best Sales and Operations Manager in the business, since 18 Sound was acquired by B&C earlier this year...   ;)

We have been told there is no plan to merge distribution channels. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Richard Turner on July 25, 2018, 08:59:24 pm
I think I last posted about DIY subs 4 or so years ago, In this case I'd say copy the Peavy 118HC box and tune the box with some 4" ABS popes rather than thr rectangle port.

I still stand by my statment of just buying a good used recogmized name brand box. Thheres likely some SB528 or sB1000 from EAW or multiple LS808 yorkville gathering dust to be had for $200 a pop in working order if you put the word out
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: drew gandy on July 25, 2018, 10:01:08 pm
We have been told there is no plan to merge distribution channels. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Well then, never mind.  No Prescott for you. 

Of course, how many times have we heard that "they aren't going to close the factory".  We can probably make a list [here on PSW) of cities that are near and dear to our hearts because of the audio factories that used to be there.  Merging distribution is going to make sense at some point in the future. 


As far as used pro cabs go.  Yes!!  I'm surprised no-one has suggested looking for some used Labsubs.  There have to be used ones out there for really cheap.  And I consider them to be one of the best sounding pro subs of any type.  The OP's comments about horns not sounding right seems to be an indication of his lack of experience with the better products on the market.  He could use those carboi 18" drivers to build some mid/upper bass cabinets. 

Anyway, I think I'm just adding to the noise at this point...
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: duane massey on July 26, 2018, 02:25:17 am
FWIW, I pay a little less than $ 60 per 4x8x3/4 baltic in Houston. Only one supplier (to my knowledge) stocks this in 4x8. Most stock it in 5x5, but my designs and panel saw won't work with 5x5.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: drew gandy on July 26, 2018, 02:08:25 pm
FWIW, I pay a little less than $ 60 per 4x8x3/4 baltic in Houston. Only one supplier (to my knowledge) stocks this in 4x8. Most stock it in 5x5, but my designs and panel saw won't work with 5x5.

It's been a few years since I've priced it in Chicagoland but your $60 price sounds very very good as well.  There is a local retail chain called Owl Hardwood that is considerably more.  Many years ago I opened an account with a plywood distributor and placed an opening order.  They ended up closing my account some time later when they realized that I wasn't going to place orders like that every month

I am lucky enough to have a panel saw that will accept 5'x5' sheets but the CNC table unfortunately doesn't.  Still not quite sure I understand why the Euro standard is 5x5.  Either they have 5' tall walls or 10' tall?  Is sheetrock in the same size?   
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: duane massey on July 26, 2018, 07:45:32 pm
As I understand it, 5x5 is a good dimension for for carpenters who build kitchen cabinets, drawers, etc., where 30" is a standard dimension. Community L&S designed their "Boxer" series many years ago to be constructed from 5x5 sheets. Since Baltic is rarely used by normal construction projects it can be hard to source.
I have not found any 4x8 sheets in 3/8", but I rarely have need for that. I can find plenty of 5x5 sheets.
Interestingly the price of Baltic has not gone up in the past few years, and actually went down by a few dollars, but Chinese/Asian plywood went up by 20-30%.
Title: Re: Gona try this another way
Post by: Chris Hindle on August 09, 2018, 01:43:51 pm
As I understand it, 5x5 is a good dimension for for carpenters who build kitchen cabinets, drawers, etc., where 30" is a standard dimension. Community L&S designed their "Boxer" series many years ago to be constructed from 5x5 sheets. Since Baltic is rarely used by normal construction projects it can be hard to source.
I have not found any 4x8 sheets in 3/8", but I rarely have need for that. I can find plenty of 5x5 sheets.
Interestingly the price of Baltic has not gone up in the past few years, and actually went down by a few dollars, but Chinese/Asian plywood went up by 20-30%.
The last BB I bought was 4x4 sheets of 1/2". Biggest they had, and only store of the "big 4" that was local to me that carried it. The other 3 were special order.
3 years ago it was $90.00 a pop here in the Great White North.
What an absolute joy to work with..........