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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Subwoofer Forum => Topic started by: Kevin Conlon on April 23, 2018, 03:18:39 pm

Title: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 23, 2018, 03:18:39 pm
I am thinking about some newer amps to replace the old iron, but great sounding ones i have. I have dual 18 mtl2b subs, also old but suit me. They have Eminence ohmega pro 18's rated at 800 w. each, paralled so 4 ohm per cab. I have been running my amps at 240 volts with short #10 wires to subs on each side, also have a spare on each side. This weekend i had an amp fail so the question. Anything out there thats 240 and can match the power i need? 120v can work but i am cabled for 240, not a problem to change but it keeps newbies from renting. I am wanting a four channel amp, two channels used, two for back ups. Have not had time to look around so i am sure someone here has already done the homework and i thank you for any replies. I could use two channel and buy four. All input would be great! Thanks,  Kevin.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Nathan Riddle on April 23, 2018, 04:43:57 pm
Honestly, best bang for buck is PLD amps.

RMS (thermal) & peak limiting. 4ch amp. Processing. Summation of channels in more than just bridging...

Fantastic price. Mike Pyle can hook you up.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 23, 2018, 05:18:29 pm
Honestly, best bang for buck is PLD amps.

RMS (thermal) & peak limiting. 4ch amp. Processing. Summation of channels in more than just bridging...

Fantastic price. Mike Pyle can hook you up.
I thought they would come up. Thanks. Always been a fan of QSC. I thought an inuke may have been first! Not poor enough to buy one.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Nathan Riddle on April 23, 2018, 05:57:08 pm
I thought they would come up. Thanks.

Yeah every few months I end up looking at amps for an install and pld consistently comes in on top of price vs performance.

Inuke DSP would be my low end pick. Just get something with 1.5-2x the power you think you need.

An other option is ashly  (compared to QSC not inuke haha)

High end would be powersoft/linea research.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Caleb Dueck on April 23, 2018, 08:45:04 pm
I am thinking about some newer amps to replace the old iron, but great sounding ones i have. I have dual 18 mtl2b subs, also old but suit me. They have Eminence ohmega pro 18's rated at 800 w. each, paralled so 4 ohm per cab. I have been running my amps at 240 volts with short #10 wires to subs on each side, also have a spare on each side. This weekend i had an amp fail so the question. Anything out there thats 240 and can match the power i need? 120v can work but i am cabled for 240, not a problem to change but it keeps newbies from renting. I am wanting a four channel amp, two channels used, two for back ups. Have not had time to look around so i am sure someone here has already done the homework and i thank you for any replies. I could use two channel and buy four. All input would be great! Thanks,  Kevin.
I'd look at Powersoft or Linea.  If you're used to "big iron", short/thick cabling - many of the cheaper lightweight amps could leave you wanting, especially on longer-duration notes. 

Especially on subwoofers, various amps that all claim 1,600w at 4 ohms won't perform the same. 

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 23, 2018, 09:34:17 pm
Yeah every few months I end up looking at amps for an install and pld consistently comes in on top of price vs performance.

Inuke DSP would be my low end pick. Just get something with 1.5-2x the power you think you need.

An other option is ashly  (compared to QSC not inuke haha)

High end would be powersoft/linea research.
I thought about the inuke as a get by, just seems to cheap, but the show would go on.  I like the ashly gear i have and have good results with them. I will check on them. I have 3 spares now ( 4 if this one is fixable) so no hurry. Thanks for the advice.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 23, 2018, 09:54:44 pm
I'd look at Powersoft or Linea.  If you're used to "big iron", short/thick cabling - many of the cheaper lightweight amps could leave you wanting, especially on longer-duration notes. 

Especially on subwoofers, various amps that all claim 1,600w at 4 ohms won't perform the same. 

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk
Thanks, i have heard good things about both. Having time is on my side, as i have spares. Money is a concern to a degree, as it should be, but quality is more to me. I can imagine an inuke shitting out on a low keyboard part but for a backup, maybe. Spend some to make some more. ROI is supposed to be our friend. I know i brought up the inuke i think it would get me all i want as a just in case.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on April 24, 2018, 03:16:07 am
Look at the Powersoft K20.

It's all the subwoofer amp you'll ever need. Extreme performance even when you don't need it all.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: John Schalk on April 24, 2018, 11:45:03 am
Here is a link to a previous discussion about how to measure the output of power amps with a focus on driving subs.  It includes a couple of links for some bench tests, including the iNuke 6000. 

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,153123.40.html (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,153123.40.html)
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Art Welter on April 24, 2018, 12:18:43 pm
Thanks, i have heard good things about both. Having time is on my side, as i have spares. Money is a concern to a degree, as it should be, but quality is more to me. I can imagine an inuke shitting out on a low keyboard part but for a backup, maybe. Spend some to make some more. ROI is supposed to be our friend. I know i brought up the inuke i think it would get me all i want as a just in case.
Kevin,

My 3 year warranty is almost up, but no problems so far on the five NU4-6000 I bought.

Here's my review from 2015:

Just before the 2015 Christmas holidays I conducted a battery of tests on some old amplifiers and a new Behringer NU4-6000 four channel amplifier. To my surprise, the  NU4-6000 performed as well on low frequencies as on mid/high frequencies, and is capable of near full power sine wave output with all four channels driven to rated output at two ohms, or two bridged mono pairs driving four ohm loads each. The $350 NU4-6000 appears to be within 3 dB of the $5500 Powersoft K10 published rating on sustained (more than 1 second) output.

The NU4-6000 with two bridged mono pairs each driving four ohm loads just below the illumination of the clip/limit light each put out 85.5 volts at 60 Hz (1828 watts), 84.6 volts at 30 Hz (1789 watts), dropping the mains voltage on a 100' 10AWG 120V line from 118.1 volts down to 107.2 volts, drawing 31 amperes.

Using just one bridged mono pair, the amp ran for 40+ seconds before I terminated the test, as the amp was drawing 19.8 amperes, and the "tired" 20 amp mains breaker had popped several times in various tests already. The amp would have put out more power given a full 120 volts, but the test represents  a "real world" situation, we don't generally plug our amplifiers in to an outlet two feet from the mains transformer.

I also tested my old "heavy iron" bass favorite, a Crest CA9. Bridged into a 4 ohm load the CA9 dropped the mains to 99.6 volts, drew 37.8 amps but only put out 80 volts (1600 watts). The NU4-6000 put out more power, and drew only 50% of the power from the mains compared to the CA9, and weighs a small fraction of the "heavy iron".

My back (and bank account) are very pleased with the NU4-6000, after the testing I purchased four units, and was happy to find that Behringer fixed the fan noise problem, turning the fan speed down when the amp is cool.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: David Winners on April 24, 2018, 02:36:06 pm
I have 2 NU4-6000 and 2 NU6000DSP. I got the first NU4-6000 and a DCX2496 processor after reading the review Art posted. I was so impressed with the sound and output per dollar I bought the rest to replace PLX amps and to give me more flexibility.

I've never had a problem. They never heat up, even running subs. I'm very happy with them.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 25, 2018, 08:17:15 pm
Look at the Powersoft K20.

It's all the subwoofer amp you'll ever need. Extreme performance even when you don't need it all.
That is a real amp. Thats down the road though. Thanks.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 25, 2018, 08:19:09 pm
I'd look at Powersoft or Linea.  If you're used to "big iron", short/thick cabling - many of the cheaper lightweight amps could leave you wanting, especially on longer-duration notes. 

Especially on subwoofers, various amps that all claim 1,600w at 4 ohms won't perform the same. 

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk
Makes me wonder if i should seek out more old iron!
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 25, 2018, 08:26:16 pm
Here is a link to a previous discussion about how to measure the output of power amps with a focus on driving subs.  It includes a couple of links for some bench tests, including the iNuke 6000. 

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,153123.40.html (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,153123.40.html)
Thank you.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 25, 2018, 09:27:03 pm
Kevin,

My 3 year warranty is almost up, but no problems so far on the five NU4-6000 I bought.

Here's my review from 2015:

Just before the 2015 Christmas holidays I conducted a battery of tests on some old amplifiers and a new Behringer NU4-6000 four channel amplifier. To my surprise, the  NU4-6000 performed as well on low frequencies as on mid/high frequencies, and is capable of near full power sine wave output with all four channels driven to rated output at two ohms, or two bridged mono pairs driving four ohm loads each. The $350 NU4-6000 appears to be within 3 dB of the $5500 Powersoft K10 published rating on sustained (more than 1 second) output.

The NU4-6000 with two bridged mono pairs each driving four ohm loads just below the illumination of the clip/limit light each put out 85.5 volts at 60 Hz (1828 watts), 84.6 volts at 30 Hz (1789 watts), dropping the mains voltage on a 100' 10AWG 120V line from 118.1 volts down to 107.2 volts, drawing 31 amperes.

Using just one bridged mono pair, the amp ran for 40+ seconds before I terminated the test, as the amp was drawing 19.8 amperes, and the "tired" 20 amp mains breaker had popped several times in various tests already. The amp would have put out more power given a full 120 volts, but the test represents  a "real world" situation, we don't generally plug our amplifiers in to an outlet two feet from the mains transformer.

I also tested my old "heavy iron" bass favorite, a Crest CA9. Bridged into a 4 ohm load the CA9 dropped the mains to 99.6 volts, drew 37.8 amps but only put out 80 volts (1600 watts). The NU4-6000 put out more power, and drew only 50% of the power from the mains compared to the CA9, and weighs a small fraction of the "heavy iron".

My back (and bank account) are very pleased with the NU4-6000, after the testing I purchased four units, and was happy to find that Behringer fixed the fan noise problem, turning the fan speed down when the amp is cool.
Thank you Art. Interesting results but how are they 5 hours in? Time will tell. I, like many have been shy of the B word. The x32 made people pay more attention to them and maybe the are coming along. I posted a thing about china amps, kinda to see what i already know, but one of these companies is making these things. I think, hearing it from you, i may get one. The price is so cheap it worries me for real use. I have spares so if one shits out it is not a huge problem. Thank you.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: David Winners on April 26, 2018, 01:27:55 am
Thank you Art. Interesting results but how are they 5 hours in? Time will tell. I, like many have been shy of the B word. The x32 made people pay more attention to them and maybe the are coming along. I posted a thing about china amps, kinda to see what i already know, but one of these companies is making these things. I think, hearing it from you, i may get one. The price is so cheap it worries me for real use. I have spares so if one shits out it is not a huge problem. Thank you.

I suggest you get one and flog the shit out of it. It will be under warranty if you blow it up, and you won't be out much for the experiment. That's what I did, and I bought 3 more afterwards.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Chrysander 'C.R.' Young on April 26, 2018, 10:59:39 am
I put a NU-6000DSP in my friend's club a few years back when the second-hand Peavey PV2600 decided to immolate itself.  The amp survived no less than two punk-rock festivals on sub duty plus 2-4 shows per week for two years.  The punk rock festival was four days of 12-16 hours of pounding out bass without a hiccup.  The amp is still running in my friend's new club and working fine. 
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Art Welter on April 26, 2018, 02:36:24 pm
Thank you Art. Interesting results but how are they 5 hours in?
5 hours in they are as cool as they were to start- depending on the angle of the sun, of course. Far cooler than the Crest and QSC amps they replaced would have been, and using a hell of a lot less power.


Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: John L Nobile on April 26, 2018, 02:53:53 pm
I suggest you get one and flog the shit out of it. It will be under warranty if you blow it up, and you won't be out much for the experiment. That's what I did, and I bought 3 more afterwards.

I bought 3 NU4-600's a year ago for monitor duty. Needed 2 but had more than enough left in my budget for a spare. 1 died and has been repaired.

I know Behringer doesn't get much love but honestly, had they been around when I was young I would have probably had a nicer system and more money in my pocket .
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 26, 2018, 09:28:53 pm
I suggest you get one and flog the shit out of it. It will be under warranty if you blow it up, and you won't be out much for the experiment. That's what I did, and I bought 3 more afterwards.

That's what i was thinking, not out much as you say.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 26, 2018, 09:32:05 pm
I put a NU-6000DSP in my friend's club a few years back when the second-hand Peavey PV2600 decided to immolate itself.  The amp survived no less than two punk-rock festivals on sub duty plus 2-4 shows per week for two years.  The punk rock festival was four days of 12-16 hours of pounding out bass without a hiccup.  The amp is still running in my friend's new club and working fine.
That answers the time question. Are they wearing winter clothes in hell? B. is getting some love.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 26, 2018, 09:40:31 pm
5 hours in they are as cool as they were to start- depending on the angle of the sun, of course. Far cooler than the Crest and QSC amps they replaced would have been, and using a hell of a lot less power.
Thanks again Art. The power is good for me and 3db won't be an issue. My old amps do get hot. I had one at a show just sitting out of a rack run at two ohms by accident and it went thermal, put a fan on it and finished the day. Are they 100 to 240 power as some newer gear? I do not recall anything in the description, so i think no.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 26, 2018, 10:18:11 pm
I bought 3 NU4-600's a year ago for monitor duty. Needed 2 but had more than enough left in my budget for a spare. 1 died and has been repaired.

I know Behringer doesn't get much love but honestly, had they been around when I was young I would have probably had a nicer system and more money in my pocket .
We played a festival last weekend and the pa the festival was using was B. and it sounded like S. I know he was driving it to beyond death, it was bad. Worst part is this is the third year he was there and his stuff still works. I was hoping it would die and he could use ours. It was abuse but i don't know if i would have a better system, maybe better than our diy. As i am responding i think you could be right, over look me! (those altec and cv amps did kick some ass).
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Scott Holtzman on April 26, 2018, 10:49:49 pm
We played a festival last weekend and the pa the festival was using was B. and it sounded like S. I know he was driving it to beyond death, it was bad. Worst part is this is the third year he was there and his stuff still works. I was hoping it would die and he could use ours. It was abuse but i don't know if i would have a better system, maybe better than our diy. As i am responding i think you could be right, over look me! (those altec and cv amps did kick some ass).

Was he using Behringer speakers?    They don't have any high quality speakers (at least not Behringer branded)  but as this thread points out you can certainly do some good work with the iNukes and an x32.   
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on April 27, 2018, 08:14:57 am
Another +1 on the iNukes. I use a variety of them - NU4-6000 with monitors on two channels and FOH HF on the other, a few NU6000s doing mids and subs, and a couple of NU3000DSPs in a rack that gets used as a throw-around do-whatever rack (monitors, fills etc). The DSP is decent, they put out a good amount of power, and they're cheap enough to keep spares.

Haven't tested the NU12000. I've heard it's a beefed up 6000 that can drive 2ohm loads, but I try to avoid 2ohm loads anyway.

They're not perfect, though:
- The HF frequency response is load-dependent as the amplifier takes its feedback from before the LC lowpass filter.
- They're not the cleanest amps in the world
- No PFC
- They don't look great

FWIW, specs on the 3000s/6000s:

NU3000: 300/600/1000w/ch into 8/4/2ohm.
NU6000: 1200/2000w/ch into 8/4ohm. 2ohm use not recommended as the NU6000 is a pair of NU3000s bridged in one box. The NU4-6000 is four channels of the NU3000, and can be bridged to give the outputs of a standard NU6000. IMO, that flexibility makes it the best of the bunch. Shame the 4-channel one doesn't have DSP available, or I'd sell my lot and just buy those.

Chris
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Nathan Riddle on April 27, 2018, 10:44:25 am
They're not perfect, though:
- No PFC

Careful now, PFC might not be as good as we'd like it to be ;)

http://linea-research.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/LR%20Download%20Assets/Tech%20Docs/PFC%20-%20Lineas%20position%20-01a.pdf
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Art Welter on April 27, 2018, 02:33:58 pm
Thanks again Art. The power is good for me and 3db won't be an issue. My old amps do get hot. I had one at a show just sitting out of a rack run at two ohms by accident and it went thermal, put a fan on it and finished the day. Are they 100 to 240 power as some newer gear? I do not recall anything in the description, so i think no.
The one NU4-6000 I have handy is labeled "120V" below the outlet.
The brochure does not mention a "universal power supply".
The specifications page says Voltage (Breaker):
USA/Canada/Japan, 100-120V 50/60 Hz  (25A 250AC)
UK/Australia/Europe/Korea/China, 220-240V 50/60 Hz (12A 250AC)

That said, I don't know if current models might be universal.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: David Winners on April 27, 2018, 03:30:31 pm
Shame the 4-channel one doesn't have DSP available, or I'd sell my lot and just buy those.

Chris

I totally agree. I had 2 NU4s racked with a DCX2496 for quite a while. What a versatile setup for the money. If they release a DSP version of the NU4, I'll sell all my others and go to the DSP version.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: John L Nobile on April 27, 2018, 05:41:09 pm
We played a festival last weekend and the pa the festival was using was B. and it sounded like S. I know he was driving it to beyond death, it was bad. Worst part is this is the third year he was there and his stuff still works. I was hoping it would die and he could use ours. It was abuse but i don't know if i would have a better system, maybe better than our diy. As i am responding i think you could be right, over look me! (those altec and cv amps did kick some ass).

Are you blaming the B's for the S sound? Could be so many other things. Amps probably account for the last thing.

I just use mine on monitors and they sound just fine. I'm using LG amps on my mains.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 27, 2018, 08:12:45 pm
Are you blaming the B's for the S sound? Could be so many other things. Amps probably account for the last thing.

I just use mine on monitors and they sound just fine. I'm using LG amps on my mains.
Not blaming them, it was all the user. A little B mixer running two powered B 12/horn. I did not look but am sure the overload light was on all day. May have been clipping the channels also. He had "we will rock you" blasting, horrible break up. Then he tried to talk over it, could not hear a word. And yes my thumps make good monitors but not live rock mains.
Title: Re: Sub amp recomendations
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 27, 2018, 08:14:58 pm
The one NU4-6000 I have handy is labeled "120V" below the outlet.
The brochure does not mention a "universal power supply".
The specifications page says Voltage (Breaker):
USA/Canada/Japan, 100-120V 50/60 Hz  (25A 250AC)
UK/Australia/Europe/Korea/China, 220-240V 50/60 Hz (12A 250AC)

That said, I don't know if current models might be universal.
I looked after the post, not sold here. Not a huge problem anyway.