ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: George Herbert on April 16, 2018, 03:16:07 pm

Title: Speaker Upgrade Question
Post by: George Herbert on April 16, 2018, 03:16:07 pm
Apologies for asking a "which speakers" question. There's no place around where I can audition the stuff I am interested in, and I am fairly inexperienced. Unfortunately online research ends up being a significant part of my purchasing homework. Your thoughts and opinions are helpful. I currently own 2X EV ELX 112P. I'd like to upgrade for better overall audio quality. I don't need more power, don't need onboard EQ/DSP. Would like to keep the weight down to around 50 lbs or less. Application is a hobbyist acoustic band, playing at modest SPL. My two leading contenders are EV ETX 112P and RCF HD 32-A mk4.

I cite those two as leading contenders because 1) when I bought my current ELXs, I preferred the sound of the EVs to the available comparitors, which were QSC Ks and Yamaha DXRs, and 2) very rare to read negative reviews/opinions of RCF in general. Some of what I read about the HD 32-A is that it's particularly good for vocals and acoustic guitars, which some folks attribute to the relatively low crossover at 700 hz.

Would either of these be a "slap you in the face" upgrade in general audio quality? Any other speakers in this price range that I should take a serious look at?

Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Speaker Upgrade Question
Post by: Mike Pyle on April 16, 2018, 04:15:50 pm
Would either of these be a "slap you in the face" upgrade in general audio quality? Any other speakers in this price range that I should take a serious look at?

Yamaha DSR112 would fall in that price range.

Title: Re: Speaker Upgrade Question
Post by: Art Welter on April 16, 2018, 04:49:18 pm
1) I currently own 2X EV ELX 112P. I'd like to upgrade for better overall audio quality. I don't need more power, don't need onboard EQ/DSP.
2)Would like to keep the weight down to around 50 lbs or less. Application is a hobbyist acoustic band, playing at modest SPL. My two leading contenders are EV ETX 112P and RCF HD 32-A mk4.
3)Some of what I read about the HD 32-A is that it's particularly good for vocals and acoustic guitars, which some folks attribute to the relatively low crossover at 700 hz.
4)Would either of these be a "slap you in the face" upgrade in general audio quality?
George,

Having been "fooled" before, without a direct A/B comparison, I'd be unwilling to drop much $$ on a new speaker, unless the ones in question have obvious deficiencies.

1) All the speakers you mention use onboard EQ/DSP. There have been some big changes in processing power and filter designs over the years, allowing large improvements in the sound of ordinary transducers.
Unfortunately, how the DSP "sounds" won't be clear in the specifications, but a smooth phase and frequency response are always something to look for.
2) Fulcrum Acoustic should also be considered, their co-axial and cardioid designs are at the forefront of what you are looking for. Dave Gunness really was a pioneer in FIR, though others are "catching up" ;^).
3) The 3" diaphragm of the HD 32-A allows it to be a step above the usual 2-ways, and RCF FIR filtering does "sound good".
4) You have decent speakers now, a "slap you in the face" upgrade might not even be possible, though there is room for improvement.

Art





Title: Re: Speaker Upgrade Question
Post by: Scott Olewiler on April 16, 2018, 05:17:59 pm
Yamaha DSR112 would fall in that price range.

And is a noticeable improvement over the ELX112P.   
Title: Re: Speaker Upgrade Question
Post by: George Herbert on April 17, 2018, 01:00:14 pm
George,

Having been "fooled" before, without a direct A/B comparison, I'd be unwilling to drop much $$ on a new speaker, unless the ones in question have obvious deficiencies.

1) All the speakers you mention use onboard EQ/DSP. There have been some big changes in processing power and filter designs over the years, allowing large improvements in the sound of ordinary transducers.
Unfortunately, how the DSP "sounds" won't be clear in the specifications, but a smooth phase and frequency response are always something to look for.
2) Fulcrum Acoustic should also be considered, their co-axial and cardioid designs are at the forefront of what you are looking for. Dave Gunness really was a pioneer in FIR, though others are "catching up" ;^).
3) The 3" diaphragm of the HD 32-A allows it to be a step above the usual 2-ways, and RCF FIR filtering does "sound good".
4) You have decent speakers now, a "slap you in the face" upgrade might not even be possible, though there is room for improvement.

Art

Thank you, Art. I'm curious about the diaphragm size. If a larger diaphragm size is better, why isn't it more common? Not doubting you at all, just curious.
Title: Re: Speaker Upgrade Question
Post by: Dave Garoutte on April 17, 2018, 01:07:12 pm
Thank you, Art. I'm curious about the diaphragm size. If a larger diaphragm size is better, why isn't it more common? Not doubting you at all, just curious.

Costs more.
Title: Re: Speaker Upgrade Question
Post by: David Allred on April 17, 2018, 01:09:12 pm
And is a noticeable improvement over the ELX112P.
(DSR112)...and a $100 rebate because of the phase out of the line.
Title: Re: Speaker Upgrade Question
Post by: Mike Pyle on April 17, 2018, 01:17:32 pm
(DSR112)...and a $100 rebate because of the phase out of the line.

I have not seen any mention from Yamaha that they are phasing out the DSR. The various rebates they offer have occured previously as well.
Title: Re: Speaker Upgrade Question
Post by: Mike Caldwell on April 17, 2018, 01:32:20 pm
While I have not compared them to your other choices I got a pair of RCF 735A MK4's for a customer and I will say pluging a 58 straight into them sounded really good.

There's some DSP magic going inside them but on the speaker it self all your have is a power switch, mic/line switch and a level control and that can be a very good thing!
Title: Re: Speaker Upgrade Question
Post by: David Allred on April 17, 2018, 02:40:44 pm
I have not seen any mention from Yamaha that they are phasing out the DSR. The various rebates they offer have occured previously as well.
I thought someone here (another thread) said they read it was a replacement of the DSR.  Could it be they were wrong?  ;)
Title: Re: Speaker Upgrade Question
Post by: Richard Penrose on April 17, 2018, 03:35:56 pm
The RCF NX32a would be worth condisering.

https://www.rcf.it/products/product-detail/-/journal_content/56_INSTANCE_2MT9qNpeXdu4/20195/291491

Also, Yamaha have just released a new range called the DZR. These are supposed to be a step up from the DSR.

The DZR12 would be a possibility but you’d have to wait a while before they are in stores and there are some reviews.

https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/proaudio/speakers/dzr_dxs_xlf/specs.html#
Title: Re: Speaker Upgrade Question
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 17, 2018, 05:33:04 pm
I thought someone here (another thread) said they read it was a replacement of the DSR.  Could it be they were wrong?  ;)

My Digital Crystal Ball is doing an update and will be offline...

But it would seem odd for Yamaha to choke up the mid/upper price point of the D** line; something's gotta go.  DBR is the bottom rung of the D family ladder so it will probably stay until a new series is launched; DX or DS?  Hard to say as they're not hugely far apart in market position.

How different are the DSR from the DZR and will those difference be enough for the market to embrace the Z?  How much 'better' or different/similar are the DZR from JBL's SRX8**p or similar products from other manufacturers?  In some ways it's hard to determine if Yamaha is competing against itself or others.

Title: Re: Speaker Upgrade Question
Post by: George Herbert on April 17, 2018, 05:48:20 pm
The RCF NX32a would be worth condisering.

https://www.rcf.it/products/product-detail/-/journal_content/56_INSTANCE_2MT9qNpeXdu4/20195/291491

Also, Yamaha have just released a new range called the DZR. These are supposed to be a step up from the DSR.

The DZR12 would be a possibility but you’d have to wait a while before they are in stores and there are some reviews.

https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/proaudio/speakers/dzr_dxs_xlf/specs.html#

NX cost a lot more than HD. I pulled the trigger on the HD 32A. I don't like making this choice without being able to listen to a bunch of candidates, but so it goes ... Thanks to all who responded, I'll report back on this in a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Speaker Upgrade Question
Post by: Mike Pyle on April 17, 2018, 06:44:21 pm
In some ways it's hard to determine if Yamaha is competing against itself or others.

True. Especially considering they have now announced the DXS-XLF model subs when the new, improved DXS-MKII subs were just announced a couple of months ago.
Title: Re: Speaker Upgrade Question
Post by: Scott Bolt on April 18, 2018, 09:18:11 pm
My Digital Crystal Ball is doing an update and will be offline...

But it would seem odd for Yamaha to choke up the mid/upper price point of the D** line; something's gotta go.  DBR is the bottom rung of the D family ladder so it will probably stay until a new series is launched; DX or DS?  Hard to say as they're not hugely far apart in market position.

How different are the DSR from the DZR and will those difference be enough for the market to embrace the Z?  How much 'better' or different/similar are the DZR from JBL's SRX8**p or similar products from other manufacturers?  In some ways it's hard to determine if Yamaha is competing against itself or others.

Hey Tim,

Seems difficult to see how the DSR series will survive the release of the DZR series.  Same price range, same target market.  And while I love my DSR's, they are over 7 years old now and the design was a year old when I bought it.  I think Yamaha over-shot the original competitive mark and got themselves a fine speaker .... but the cost was a bit high compared to the competition ..... thus the DXR line and then DBR.  Replacing the DSR line with the DZR and raising the price a bit makes a great deal of sense to me.

A good lineup would then be DBR->DXR->DZR.  All very distinct price brackets, and all distinct levels of output and quality.

I am not as sure about the subs though.  DXS->DXS-XLF? 
Title: Re: Speaker Upgrade Question
Post by: David Allred on April 19, 2018, 09:35:01 am
A good lineup would then be DBR->DXR->DZR.  All very distinct price brackets, and all distinct levels of output and quality.

I am not as sure about the subs though.  DXS->DXS-XLF?

Seems they like the D(igital?) and the R(eenforcement?), but have painted themselves in the corner with Z for future improved models.  Guess Z means ultimate or last.
Title: Re: Speaker Upgrade Question
Post by: George Herbert on April 30, 2018, 04:09:03 pm
Apologies for asking a "which speakers" question. There's no place around where I can audition the stuff I am interested in, and I am fairly inexperienced. Unfortunately online research ends up being a significant part of my purchasing homework. Your thoughts and opinions are helpful. I currently own 2X EV ELX 112P. I'd like to upgrade for better overall audio quality. I don't need more power, don't need onboard EQ/DSP. Would like to keep the weight down to around 50 lbs or less. Application is a hobbyist acoustic band, playing at modest SPL. My two leading contenders are EV ETX 112P and RCF HD 32-A mk4.

I cite those two as leading contenders because 1) when I bought my current ELXs, I preferred the sound of the EVs to the available comparitors, which were QSC Ks and Yamaha DXRs, and 2) very rare to read negative reviews/opinions of RCF in general. Some of what I read about the HD 32-A is that it's particularly good for vocals and acoustic guitars, which some folks attribute to the relatively low crossover at 700 hz.

Would either of these be a "slap you in the face" upgrade in general audio quality? Any other speakers in this price range that I should take a serious look at?

Thanks for your help.

After some playing around at home and one gig I'm really liking the RCFs. Good detail and depth. Clear and not overly processed sounding. Compact and easy to handle.