ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Wireless and Communications => Topic started by: frank kayser on April 13, 2018, 10:12:43 am

Title: Any concerns using Senn ENG set as IEM?
Post by: frank kayser on April 13, 2018, 10:12:43 am
Hi folks,
I've got a Senn IEM set racked with a Senn Wireless Mic system.  I've started using the IEM pack as a monitor set while mixing on the iPad to be able to solo channels and all the other neat stuff one can do with headphones at the console.  It works quite well.


The problem is size.  Many times I just do not have enough real estate at mixer location (especially briefcase jobs) to bring in my portable rack.   I could separate the IEM unit from the wireless mic receiver, but that adds to the complexity of the setup for those jobs where I need both.


So recently a film maker has been hooking his ENG transmitter to the mixer, and the receiver to his camera/recording rig.  So small, the size of the normal battery operated transmitter or receiver pack.


So that looked to be a possible solution for my portable mixstation solo/monitor/IEM needs.


Can anyone think of any reason this would not be a good solution?  My purpose would be mixing and blending, rather than trying to optimize actual timbre.  Also with in-ears, I could substantially muffle the crowd noise and in theory, produce a better mix.


Comments?


thanks
frank


----------------
One thing I noticed with the ENG set is there is no external volume control on the receiver (duh!).  Then I thought pairing an ENG transmitter with one of my IEM receivers.


further thought begs another question:
Can a standard lav transmitter pack sync properly with an IEM receiver, effectively kludging an ENG set?


Hmmm... That test I can do myself for free...
---------------
Title: Re: Any concerns using Senn ENG set as IEM?
Post by: John Sulek on April 13, 2018, 10:41:35 am
Hi folks,
I've got a Senn IEM set racked with a Senn Wireless Mic system.  I've started using the IEM pack as a monitor set while mixing on the iPad to be able to solo channels and all the other neat stuff one can do with headphones at the console.  It works quite well.


The problem is size.  Many times I just do not have enough real estate at mixer location (especially briefcase jobs) to bring in my portable rack.   I could separate the IEM unit from the wireless mic receiver, but that adds to the complexity of the setup for those jobs where I need both.


So recently a film maker has been hooking his ENG transmitter to the mixer, and the receiver to his camera/recording rig.  So small, the size of the normal battery operated transmitter or receiver pack.


So that looked to be a possible solution for my portable mixstation solo/monitor/IEM needs.


Can anyone think of any reason this would not be a good solution?  My purpose would be mixing and blending, rather than trying to optimize actual timbre.  Also with in-ears, I could substantially muffle the crowd noise and in theory, produce a better mix.


Comments?


thanks
frank


----------------
One thing I noticed with the ENG set is there is no external volume control on the receiver (duh!).  Then I thought pairing an ENG transmitter with one of my IEM receivers.


further thought begs another question:
Can a standard lav transmitter pack sync properly with an IEM receiver, effectively kludging an ENG set?


Hmmm... That test I can do myself for free...
---------------

Way back when, the first demo Sennheiser iem kit that I got to use was basically a reworked ENG package with the belt pack type transmitter and a receiver pack. Two mixes...two transmit packs taped to the top of the meter bridge...so elegant.
Should work just fine for an rf cue system.
The pairing kludge will be a matter of pilot tone on/off settings and if the compander schemes match up.
Happy kludging!
Title: Re: Any concerns using Senn ENG set as IEM?
Post by: frank kayser on April 13, 2018, 01:58:03 pm
Way back when, the first demo Sennheiser iem kit that I got to use was basically a reworked ENG package with the belt pack type transmitter and a receiver pack. Two mixes...two transmit packs taped to the top of the meter bridge...so elegant.
Should work just fine for an rf cue system.
The pairing kludge will be a matter of pilot tone on/off settings and if the compander schemes match up.
Happy kludging!
Thanks, John.  We'll see what happens this afternoon.  Not holding my breath, though. 
Title: Re: Any concerns using Senn ENG set as IEM?
Post by: Dave Garoutte on April 13, 2018, 07:40:02 pm
I'm pretty sure any style Senny TX will work with any style RX as long as they are set to the same frequency.  I have sent from a IEM TX box to a couple of mic RX boxes for remote speaker speakers and it worked perfectly.
If you are in the crowd with a body pack, make sure you get the TX or antenna up as high as practical.
Title: Re: Any concerns using Senn ENG set as IEM?
Post by: Russell Ault on April 13, 2018, 08:17:15 pm
I'm pretty sure any style Senny TX will work with any style RX as long as they are set to the same frequency.

The thing to be aware of with Sennheiser's analogue RF gear is that they have two different companding schemes, HiDyn and HDX. As long as the TX and RX both "speak" the same companding scheme you should be able to get something usable through the system, at least in mono.

-Russ
Title: Re: Any concerns using Senn ENG as IEM? - Beltpack trans to beltpack rx works!
Post by: frank kayser on April 13, 2018, 08:39:16 pm
Well, sunny beach!  Save the money.  No need for an ENG system (for my application, anyway)
The G3 wireless beltpack transmitter can work with the G3 IEM beltpack receiver!
This is SO COOL.  Hook it to any mixer monitor bus and I'm in business with a 4 sq inch footprint.


Transmitting from iPhone->G3 transmitter ~/~> G3 IEM receiver->Headphones.
Of course, frequencies must match.
Pilot tone on IEM receiver must be OFF
Pilot Tone on beltpack transmitter can be either on or off.  Made no difference I could tell with my sub-5-minute "test".


I had my IEMs set for mono, so pilot tone was off initially.
Set the frequency, and on pops the green connect light.
Break out the iPhone and headphones, and music was flowing.


As pilot tone was mentioned, I did test that after I celebrated.
Best >$500 I ever saved!  WooHoo!


Hope this helps someone!
Title: Re: Any concerns using Senn ENG set as IEM?
Post by: Mike Caldwell on April 15, 2018, 07:48:39 am



Can anyone think of any reason this would not be a good solution?  My purpose would be mixing and blending, rather than trying to optimize actual timbre.  Also with in-ears, I could substantially muffle the crowd noise and in theory, produce a better mix.


I would be careful referencing your mix to ear buds or headphones, you would be mixing in completely different environment than what the audience is listening in.
Title: Re: Any concerns using Senn ENG set as IEM?
Post by: TomBoisseau on April 15, 2018, 11:32:44 am
Hi folks,
I've got a Senn IEM set racked with a Senn Wireless Mic system.  I've started using the IEM pack as a monitor set while mixing on the iPad to be able to solo channels and all the other neat stuff one can do with headphones at the console.  It works quite well.


The problem is size.  Many times I just do not have enough real estate at mixer location (especially briefcase jobs) to bring in my portable rack.   I could separate the IEM unit from the wireless mic receiver, but that adds to the complexity of the setup for those jobs where I need both.


So recently a film maker has been hooking his ENG transmitter to the mixer, and the receiver to his camera/recording rig.  So small, the size of the normal battery operated transmitter or receiver pack.


So that looked to be a possible solution for my portable mixstation solo/monitor/IEM needs.


Can anyone think of any reason this would not be a good solution?  My purpose would be mixing and blending, rather than trying to optimize actual timbre.  Also with in-ears, I could substantially muffle the crowd noise and in theory, produce a better mix.


Comments?


thanks
frank


----------------
One thing I noticed with the ENG set is there is no external volume control on the receiver (duh!).  Then I thought pairing an ENG transmitter with one of my IEM receivers.


further thought begs another question:
Can a standard lav transmitter pack sync properly with an IEM receiver, effectively kludging an ENG set?


Hmmm... That test I can do myself for free...
---------------



Frank,

I frequently use a Sennheiser SK 100 G3 beltpack transmitter to feed a Sennheiser EK 300 IEM receiver.  Provided they are in the same frequency band and you turn OFF the pilot tone, it works just fine.  While the signal will be mono, it will  however appear in both sides of your headset. 

This works MUCH beter that trying to use the Sennheiser EK 100 G3 ENG receiver.  With the EK 100 G3 you will only get audio in one ear and the output level will likely be too low.

The only thing that might be a little tricky is getting or building the cable for the SK 100 G3 beltpack transmitter.  If you need the pin out info, let me know.

Oh, and the companding issue is not an issue at all.  They match up perfectly.


Tom





Title: Re: Any concerns using Senn ENG set as IEM?
Post by: frank kayser on April 15, 2018, 12:24:26 pm
I would be careful referencing your mix to ear buds or headphones, you would be mixing in completely different environment than what the audience is listening in.


Caution noted, Mike. I'm using it more to blend voices and instruments across the stage.  I regularly pull the plug, so to speak, to ensure I do not make decisions based solely on the cue mix.  Also any voice/instrument eq issues are always done ears open.


Frank,

I frequently use a Sennheiser SK 100 G3 beltpack transmitter to feed a Sennheiser EK 300 IEM receiver.  Provided they are in the same frequency band and you turn OFF the pilot tone, it works just fine.  While the signal will be mono, it will  however appear in both sides of your headset. 

This works MUCH beter that trying to use the Sennheiser EK 100 G3 ENG receiver.  With the EK 100 G3 you will only get audio in one ear and the output level will likely be too low.

The only thing that might be a little tricky is getting or building the cable for the SK 100 G3 beltpack transmitter.  If you need the pin out info, let me know.

Oh, and the companding issue is not an issue at all.  They match up perfectly.

Tom



That is exactly what I found, Tom.  Saving money not buying an ENG set was such a bonus!  If you wouldn't mind sharing the cable pinout, the rest of the board and I will benefit from your research.


thanks, Tom.


frank


Title: Re: Any concerns using Senn ENG set as IEM?
Post by: TomBoisseau on April 15, 2018, 09:44:49 pm

Caution noted, Mike. I'm using it more to blend voices and instruments across the stage.  I regularly pull the plug, so to speak, to ensure I do not make decisions based solely on the cue mix.  Also any voice/instrument eq issues are always done ears open.

That is exactly what I found, Tom.  Saving money not buying an ENG set was such a bonus!  If you wouldn't mind sharing the cable pinout, the rest of the board and I will benefit from your research.


thanks, Tom.


frank

The wiring into the Sennheiser SK 100 G3 beltpack transmitter is quite odd, but, trust me, this is the correct wiring:


Tip & Sleeve - short together and connect to signal "minus" (-) or shield
Ring - connect to signal "plus" (+)


I know, I know.  I told you it was quite odd, but that is the correct way to do it!

Or course this is an "unbalanced" connection, so if you are using a balanced output to feed the SK 100 use an appropriate adapter or transfomer to "unbalance" the signal.


Tom
Title: Re: Any concerns using Senn ENG set as IEM?
Post by: frank kayser on April 23, 2018, 08:39:16 pm
The wiring into the Sennheiser SK 100 G3 beltpack transmitter is quite odd, but, trust me, this is the correct wiring:


Tip & Sleeve - short together and connect to signal "minus" (-) or shield
Ring - connect to signal "plus" (+)


I know, I know.  I told you it was quite odd, but that is the correct way to do it!

Or course this is an "unbalanced" connection, so if you are using a balanced output to feed the SK 100 use an appropriate adapter or transfomer to "unbalance" the signal.


Tom


Thanks again!
Title: Re: Any concerns using Senn ENG set as IEM?
Post by: Tim Weaver on April 24, 2018, 12:16:05 am
FWIW, Gary P Nunn has been doing this for years. His IEM rig consists of a set of TX/RX beltpacks that get plugged into any aux you have available. With that and a little devil's lettuce he'll play for hours on end.....
Title: Re: Any concerns using Senn ENG set as IEM?
Post by: frank kayser on April 24, 2018, 09:32:08 am
FWIW, Gary P Nunn has been doing this for years. His IEM rig consists of a set of TX/RX beltpacks that get plugged into any aux you have available. With that and a little devil's lettuce he'll play for hours on end.....


Good to know!  I guess you grow that Devil's Lettuce down there.  Is that like money growing on trees?
Title: Re: Any concerns using Senn ENG set as IEM?
Post by: Tim Weaver on April 24, 2018, 04:05:35 pm

Good to know!  I guess you grow that Devil's Lettuce down there.  Is that like money growing on trees?

Not for me it isn't! I think Colorado has a monopoly on it now....