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Title: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Matt Greiner on February 12, 2018, 07:04:11 pm
Question all, I've been trying to wrap my head about this and can't figure it out. 

If you run aux fed subs, how can you get your set break music to sound right?  I'm sending the kick to my subs for the show, but then, for the break music, I can't just send that channel to the subs, as I will not get any of the full range.  And if I send that channel to L/R, I won't get any low end.  Is there something simple I'm missing?  I'm using a Midas M32. 

Side note, the last arena show I went to they were using a Midas Pro 2, and I saw the engineer adjust what I think was the low pass filter during the break music and heard the subs level go up, but I could be wrong.  (I didn't have the best view as I standing off to the side of FOH.)  Maybe they weren't using aux subs though.  I am just trying to learn how to get a great sound for the live show, but still have decent sounding break music without having to constantly adjust the EQ for break music.
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: William Schnake on February 12, 2018, 07:11:48 pm
Question all, I've been trying to wrap my head about this and can't figure it out. 

If you run aux fed subs, how can you get your set break music to sound right?  I'm sending the kick to my subs for the show, but then, for the break music, I can't just send that channel to the subs, as I will not get any of the full range.  And if I send that channel to L/R, I won't get any low end.  Is there something simple I'm missing?  I'm using a Midas M32. 

Side note, the last arena show I went to they were using a Midas Pro 2, and I saw the engineer adjust what I think was the low pass filter during the break music and heard the subs level go up, but I could be wrong.  (I didn't have the best view as I standing off to the side of FOH.)  Maybe they weren't using aux subs though.  I am just trying to learn how to get a great sound for the live show, but still have decent sounding break music without having to constantly adjust the EQ for break music.
Matt, we run our subs on an aux and have for a decade at least maybe longer.  We run our computer into two channel on whatever mixer we are using and then turn up the aux that feeds the subs on those two channels.  You have to make sure you don't mute the Aux Master going to the sub and that the main L/R are turned-up, but besides that there is no magic here.

Let me know if I misunderstood your questions.

Bill
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Dave Garoutte on February 12, 2018, 07:43:32 pm
Somewhere in the signal path to the subs is a low pass filter that attenuates the highs, so feeding the aux channel a full range signal is fine.
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Mike Caldwell on February 12, 2018, 08:00:35 pm
For just about every aux fed sub application all the inputs are sent/mixed to the tops/ low mid high boxes and the inputs that need some sub action like your kick drum also have the aux/mix brought up on that input channel that feeds the subs.

From the wording in your first post it almost makes me think that your kick drum input is only going to the subs and not into the top boxes.
You would treat the inputs for the break music just as any input needing some sub, bring up the sub aux and mix in the subwoofer to the needed level.
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Matt Greiner on February 12, 2018, 10:24:13 pm
From the wording in your first post it almost makes me think that your kick drum input is only going to the subs and not into the top boxes.
You would treat the inputs for the break music just as any input needing some sub, bring up the sub aux and mix in the subwoofer to the needed level.

That is correct, that is what I was thinking that it was a "main L/R or aux subs, not both."  Now, as I read your response out and reread my post out loud, I realize that it is exactly as it sounds, it's an "aux."  The signal is sent to both L/R and the aux sub buss.  Any aux is not either or, they are separate from each other.

The way I was planning to implement this is as follows, please correct me if my thought process is incorrect.

On my M32, I would go to the EQ section of my main L/R, set a High Pass filter (Linkwitz-Riley 24) at 110 Hz (this is where the manufacturer recommends me to set the crossover in my DSP, so I would mirror it on the console).  I would then go to my aux sub buss, and set a low pass filter at 110 Hz, same L/R 24 filter.  Then I would just have to assign my input of break music to be on both the L/R and aux buss.

In my DSP, I already have it set up so anything 110 Hz or less gets filtered out of the top boxes, so it doesn't matter if the kick is sent to the tops.  Which is what Dave said, just using the low end as the example.

I would guess I could do the same with the DSP I already have, but it would require an additional cable to each DSP.  If I do this in the M32, I am essentially doubling up on my DSP's in the signal chain.
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 12, 2018, 10:31:13 pm
I would guess I could do the same with the DSP I already have, but it would require an additional cable to each DSP.  If I do this in the M32, I am essentially doubling up on my DSP's in the signal chain.

Not something you want to do.

Mac
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Matt Greiner on February 12, 2018, 10:33:25 pm
Not something you want to do.

Mac

What would be the harm?  Isn't it essentially just like adding EQ to other channels?
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 12, 2018, 10:56:25 pm
What would be the harm?  Isn't it essentially just like adding EQ to other channels?

If your system already has the proper crossovers you do not need to add more on top of them. It will change the expected tonality as well as the phase response.

With aux fed subs you don't want to add any more high pass to the mains than is already in the system. If you have no processing on the subs you can low pass the subs. Feed the mains from the main out or matrix out you usually do, feed the subs from an au bus that has added to it all the channels you want to go to the subs. This could be low drums, bass, keys, playback, or any other input that can use the extended low end. Exclude from the subs those things that don't need the low end, vocals, most horns, guitars, strings. Use your discretion.

Mac
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Matt Greiner on February 12, 2018, 11:40:27 pm
If your system already has the proper crossovers you do not need to add more on top of them. It will change the expected tonality as well as the phase response.

With aux fed subs you don't want to add any more high pass to the mains than is already in the system. If you have no processing on the subs you can low pass the subs. Feed the mains from the main out or matrix out you usually do, feed the subs from an au bus that has added to it all the channels you want to go to the subs. This could be low drums, bass, keys, playback, or any other input that can use the extended low end. Exclude from the subs those things that don't need the low end, vocals, most horns, guitars, strings. Use your discretion.

Mac

I understand what you mean about not wanting to add any additional high pass to the mains, and I do have processing already on the subs.

I guess the only option then would be to change the DSP output settings, and run a separate signal out just to the subs.  Instead of having the DSP run 3 way out to channel 1, I would change it so channel 1 is sub out, and channel 2 is mains/tops out, which would be 2 way.  Then hook channel 2 out to L/R on the desk, and channel 1 (subs) to an aux.  Then I'm not using any of the onboard EQ for the L/R or aux on the desk, and letting the DSP do all of the crossover work.

I'll have to explore the M32 a bit to see if I am able to route these 2 separate sub signals to the same output.  If not, would I be able to use a XLR splitter to combine them?  I am wanting to combine them, as one of the options on the M32 is to make the Mono/Center Matrix dependent on the main L/R.  This way the subs come down proportionally with the main L/R.

To clarify, I use one DSP per side for larger shows, so I have the extra channel available and can still run a stereo mix for shows.
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 12, 2018, 11:51:52 pm
I understand what you mean about not wanting to add any additional high pass to the mains, and I do have processing already on the subs.

I guess the only option then would be to change the DSP output settings, and run a separate signal out just to the subs.  Instead of having the DSP run 3 way out to channel 1, I would change it so channel 1 is sub out, and channel 2 is mains/tops out, which would be 2 way.  Then hook channel 2 out to L/R on the desk, and channel 1 (subs) to an aux.  Then I'm not using any of the onboard EQ for the L/R or aux on the desk, and letting the DSP do all of the crossover work.

I'll have to explore the M32 a bit to see if I am able to route these 2 separate sub signals to the same output.  If not, would I be able to use a XLR splitter to combine them?  I am wanting to combine them, as one of the options on the M32 is to make the Mono/Center Matrix dependent on the main L/R.  This way the subs come down proportionally with the main L/R.

To clarify, I use one DSP per side for larger shows, so I have the extra channel available and can still run a stereo mix for shows.

Ok, stop, you are getting into the weeds. What are your speakers, both mains and subs. How are they amplified? What DSP are you talking about? How is it all wired? What 2 separate sub signals are you talking about? You need 3 outputs, Left, Right, and Subs. Left and right come out of the console main out, the subs feed comes out of whatever aux send you are using. Left and right go to your DSP just as they always did. If the DSP can do 3 in 3 out the subs feed can go to the 3rd DSP channel. If not, you can do a simple LP filter in the console and not use the DSP on the subs.

Much clearer information is needed to comment further.

Mac
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Scott Holtzman on February 13, 2018, 12:24:14 am
I understand what you mean about not wanting to add any additional high pass to the mains, and I do have processing already on the subs.

I guess the only option then would be to change the DSP output settings, and run a separate signal out just to the subs.  Instead of having the DSP run 3 way out to channel 1, I would change it so channel 1 is sub out, and channel 2 is mains/tops out, which would be 2 way.  Then hook channel 2 out to L/R on the desk, and channel 1 (subs) to an aux.  Then I'm not using any of the onboard EQ for the L/R or aux on the desk, and letting the DSP do all of the crossover work.

I'll have to explore the M32 a bit to see if I am able to route these 2 separate sub signals to the same output.  If not, would I be able to use a XLR splitter to combine them?  I am wanting to combine them, as one of the options on the M32 is to make the Mono/Center Matrix dependent on the main L/R.  This way the subs come down proportionally with the main L/R.

To clarify, I use one DSP per side for larger shows, so I have the extra channel available and can still run a stereo mix for shows.

Look in the sends section of the L/R mix.  That is where you send to the matrix's.  You can route a matrix to any output.


Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Matt Greiner on February 13, 2018, 01:26:08 am
Ok, stop, you are getting into the weeds. What are your speakers, both mains and subs. How are they amplified? What DSP are you talking about? How is it all wired? What 2 separate sub signals are you talking about? You need 3 outputs, Left, Right, and Subs. Left and right come out of the console main out, the subs feed comes out of whatever aux send you are using. Left and right go to your DSP just as they always did. If the DSP can do 3 in 3 out the subs feed can go to the 3rd DSP channel. If not, you can do a simple LP filter in the console and not use the DSP on the subs.

Much clearer information is needed to comment further.

Mac

Subs
4 - Peavey VR218's, powered by 4 - CS4000's, bridged.  Subs are rated at 4800/9600 watts program/peak at 4 ohms, amp specs 4000 watts bridged at 4 ohms.

Mains
4 - Peavey QW2F's, bi-amped.  2 - CS4080hz for mids, 2 - GPS 1500 for highs.  Mid's are rated at 1200 watts programs at 8 ohms, 4080 puts out 1250 watts at 8 ohms, so they amps are a little much for them, but I compensate for that in the DSP.

DSP
2 - Peavey VSX26's.  They are a 2 in, 6 out DSP.  (They do have a 3rd in, on the front, used primarily for a reference mic.  This can be routed and used for a 3rd in, with some adjustments to the level)  Normal use would be to use input A and route to output 1, 2, and 3 and then input B to 4, 5, and 6.  All my VSX26's are routed like this, input A/B are mirrors of each other.  1 is for subs, 2 mids, and 3 highs.  I can get into specific settings (filters) if you would like, but the basic info of crossover points are 110 Hz between subs and mids, and then between mids and highs are 1200 to 1400 Hz.

For most of the shows I do, I use smaller subs, cabinets, amps, etc.  and the normal 3 way operation is perfectly fine.  Not considering running aux subs for smaller, inside shows.  (bars, reception halls, etc.)

However, in my large, outdoor setup, I run one of these DSP units PER SIDE.  I have 2 identical amp racks, one for each side of the stage.  So I only use input A routed to output 1, 2, and 3 on both sides of the stage.  When I tie into my desk, I take input A from house right to R, and input A from house left, to L.  This gets me my stereo mix.  The 2 separate sub signals I was talking about comes from having a DSP on each side of the stage.  I want to tie the 2 separate sub signals from each side of the house together into one aux on the desk, I don't want 2 aux controlling my subs in stereo.  That's why I was asking about tying them together with a XLR splitter.  Do that on stage at the digital stage box.  Perhaps in the M32 I can take 2 different outputs (let's call them 13 and 14) and route them to the same aux on the desk.  If that's the case, then I don't need to use a XLR splitter.  I did just get the M32 a few weeks ago, and am still learning what it can and can't do.  I'm sure there will be plenty to learn.

Also, I realize that for some, this is not a "large" system.  However, for me, this is about as large as I want to get.  Maybe another set or 2 of subs, because you can never have enough subs, right?
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Matt Greiner on February 13, 2018, 01:29:28 am
Look in the sends section of the L/R mix.  That is where you send to the matrix's.  You can route a matrix to any output.

Scott,
I didn't know if you could route a single matrix to 2 different outputs.  I will definitely explore more.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Luke Geis on February 13, 2018, 01:31:30 am
Slow down turbo...... Lets just simplify this and run with the K.I.S.S theory ( Keep It Simple Stupid ). There is no need to over complicate the process.

1. You need to decide if you would rather use the outboard DSP you already have, or the DSP that the mixer has. I think you should use the DSP in the mixer. It is right there, doesn't require any additional patching and you paid for it, so may as well use it.

2. The M/C Mono buss in the mixer CAN be dependent on the mains. In the setup menu just look for the M/C depends on main. Then you simply use the Mono M/C as your subs on aux. This is the easiest and probably the best way to do this. The second reason is because the EQ section of the M/C buss will then have the crossover DSP. The Crossover DSP is not available on the other 16 aux busses. It is only available on the L/R, M/C, and matrix busses.

3. You can put any mix you wish on any output that is available in the mixer. If you want the M/C Mono buss to be on outputs 1,2,3,4,5 and 6, you can do so. I would try an keep it simple though. Left, Right and subs. If you need to send the signals to multiple places, then perhaps you can double patch.

To iterate the subs on aux concept, follow along. The subs on aux is simply a separate mix that is created in which ONLY the desired signals are routed to the subs.  It is exactly like a monitor mix, except it is for the subs. This means any channel you desire to send to the subs can be done so with complete control over how much sub signal you desire to have. It is a post fade, post EQ mix, so any changes made to the fader and channel EQ will change the sound heard in the sub. The Mono, M/C mix bus in the M32 is pretty much set up as an ideal subs on aux mix. It has easy access to the mix options and EQ with the ability to run a crossover if desired. Not all mixers can do this, so I say take advantage of it.

Not knowing what DSP you have, we only know that you have two of them. My guess would be so you can do mains and sub DSP work with only a 2 input DSP devise? There is no need to split and double back inputs and outputs if you utilize at least some of the DSP power in the mixer. I am guessing you have a 3 way system with Bi-Amp tops and subs with a lower end 2 in, 6 out crossover / DSP unit? Please advise if otherwise. If in fact you do have a Bi-Amp mains system, then I would utilize only 1 of your external DSP / crossover units to do that and simply send a L/R signal from the mixer to that DSP for the mains. I would use the internal DSP on the mixer to control the subs. This will make it so there is no need to send signals back to the mixer, or double up on sends.

What I am trying to say is simplify the setup. Try and get it down to the lowest number of sends and patching. Don't try and get tricky with routing signal back and fourth. What is the easiest way to get signal from the mixer, out of the speakers.
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Matt Greiner on February 13, 2018, 02:05:12 am
Slow down turbo...... Lets just simplify this and run with the K.I.S.S theory ( Keep It Simple Stupid ). There is no need to over complicate the process.

1. You need to decide if you would rather use the outboard DSP you already have, or the DSP that the mixer has. I think you should use the DSP in the mixer. It is right there, doesn't require any additional patching and you paid for it, so may as well use it.

2. The M/C Mono buss in the mixer CAN be dependent on the mains. In the setup menu just look for the M/C depends on main. Then you simply use the Mono M/C as your subs on aux. This is the easiest and probably the best way to do this. The second reason is because the EQ section of the M/C buss will then have the crossover DSP. The Crossover DSP is not available on the other 16 aux busses. It is only available on the L/R, M/C, and matrix busses.

3. You can put any mix you wish on any output that is available in the mixer. If you want the M/C Mono buss to be on outputs 1,2,3,4,5 and 6, you can do so. I would try an keep it simple though. Left, Right and subs. If you need to send the signals to multiple places, then perhaps you can double patch.

To iterate the subs on aux concept, follow along. The subs on aux is simply a separate mix that is created in which ONLY the desired signals are routed to the subs.  It is exactly like a monitor mix, except it is for the subs. This means any channel you desire to send to the subs can be done so with complete control over how much sub signal you desire to have. It is a post fade, post EQ mix, so any changes made to the fader and channel EQ will change the sound heard in the sub. The Mono, M/C mix bus in the M32 is pretty much set up as an ideal subs on aux mix. It has easy access to the mix options and EQ with the ability to run a crossover if desired. Not all mixers can do this, so I say take advantage of it.

Not knowing what DSP you have, we only know that you have two of them. My guess would be so you can do mains and sub DSP work with only a 2 input DSP devise? There is no need to split and double back inputs and outputs if you utilize at least some of the DSP power in the mixer. I am guessing you have a 3 way system with Bi-Amp tops and subs with a lower end 2 in, 6 out crossover / DSP unit? Please advise if otherwise. If in fact you do have a Bi-Amp mains system, then I would utilize only 1 of your external DSP / crossover units to do that and simply send a L/R signal from the mixer to that DSP for the mains. I would use the internal DSP on the mixer to control the subs. This will make it so there is no need to send signals back to the mixer, or double up on sends.

What I am trying to say is simplify the setup. Try and get it down to the lowest number of sends and patching. Don't try and get tricky with routing signal back and fourth. What is the easiest way to get signal from the mixer, out of the speakers.

1. I think I'm going to stay with the outboard DSP for several reasons.  It's already configured to my systems, as I use multiple different systems with the same desk.  Also, on some occasions, I will use different desks or mixers, depending on if I have several systems working at the same time in different locations.  I also have 4 DSP's in total, 1 is another VSX26 for use in smaller systems, as well as a back up to my large system.  And the other is a VSX48, which is used for bi-amping 4 monitor mixes with EAW SM222's.  I don't use them very often due to their physical size, but when they are needed, they really shine.

2. I did see that, that's why I initially was hoping to use it.  But then I was told not to stack the DSP in the rack with the onboard DSP (which I didn't know, so I'm glad I found out.  Thanks Mac!) I abandoned the thought of using the onboard DSP.  However, if I can route 2 outputs to the M/C, I'll be in business.  Which you said is possible in point 3.

As for the M32 M/C buss setup for the aux subs, I agree it is setup to easily configure for aux fed subs.  Especially with the setting for M/C dependent on mains.  That is a key feature I definitely want to take advantage of.  I think I will just use it without the built-in DSP.

As for your last point, completely agree.  Keep it as simple as possible.  I do appreciate all the suggestions.  Thanks Luke!
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Mike Caldwell on February 13, 2018, 09:03:54 am
As the others have said your WAY over thinking this and the signal routing.

Personally I like outboard DSP processing, it makes the system more plug and play when using different mixers and can avoid an accidental preset recall if you do not have proper safes set to block preset changes from your mixers output filters.

Don't forget about applying proper high pass filtering to the subs in addition to the low pass filtering.
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Keith Broughton on February 13, 2018, 09:39:06 am
Holy smokes!
Talk about overly complicated!  :o  I can't wait to see how this turns out.

I need some popcorn and a comfy chair to watch this one! ;D
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on February 13, 2018, 10:37:44 am
1. I think I'm going to stay with the outboard DSP for several reasons.  It's already configured to my systems, as I use multiple different systems with the same desk.  Also, on some occasions, I will use different desks or mixers, depending on if I have several systems working at the same time in different locations.  I also have 4 DSP's in total, 1 is another VSX26 for use in smaller systems, as well as a back up to my large system.  And the other is a VSX48, which is used for bi-amping 4 monitor mixes with EAW SM222's.  I don't use them very often due to their physical size, but when they are needed, they really shine.

2. I did see that, that's why I initially was hoping to use it.  But then I was told not to stack the DSP in the rack with the onboard DSP (which I didn't know, so I'm glad I found out.  Thanks Mac!) I abandoned the thought of using the onboard DSP.  However, if I can route 2 outputs to the M/C, I'll be in business.  Which you said is possible in point 3.

As for the M32 M/C buss setup for the aux subs, I agree it is setup to easily configure for aux fed subs.  Especially with the setting for M/C dependent on mains.  That is a key feature I definitely want to take advantage of.  I think I will just use it without the built-in DSP.

As for your last point, completely agree.  Keep it as simple as possible.  I do appreciate all the suggestions.  Thanks Luke!

I think what is making it seem complicated is you are using the wrong wording. When you say “However, if I can route 2 outputs to the M/C, I'll be in business. “ What you really should be saying is if I can route the M/C to 2 outputs . And yes you can as has already been mentioned route the M/C to 2 outputs.

So you can come out of the M32 with a stereo L/R feed and route that to 2 outputs, 1 being the left and 1 being the right. The left one going to the left DSP and the right channel going to the right DSP. And then you can route the M/C (and don’t use the crossover functionality in the M32) to 2 outputs on the M32 and feed one of them to the other input on the right DSP and the other output to the other input on the left DSP.

You will have to reconfigure the 2 DSPs so the one input on each is for the mains only and the other input on each is for the subs only. BTW I would suggest as you are reconfiguring this that you change the crossover point for the subs have the subs only go up to about 80hz and have the tops start at about 90hz. Yes I am suggesting that you leave a little bit of a gap in the crossover point. This is because as you windup raising up the level to the subs there will naturally be some physical crossover if they aren’t exactly matching and they are run louder as is always done. What happens when the subs ar run louder in relation to the mains is sometimes called hay stacking. You probably have a bunch of places in the DSP to store presets so you can make a few different ones with different setting and listen to the differences and see what works best for you.

BTW a lot of us were basically saying the exact same thing just wording it differently. I hope we have helped you and not confused you.
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Matt Greiner on February 13, 2018, 11:49:52 am
I think what is making it seem complicated is you are using the wrong wording. When you say “However, if I can route 2 outputs to the M/C, I'll be in business. “ What you really should be saying is if I can route the M/C to 2 outputs . And yes you can as has already been mentioned route the M/C to 2 outputs.

So you can come out of the M32 with a stereo L/R feed and route that to 2 outputs, 1 being the left and 1 being the right. The left one going to the left DSP and the right channel going to the right DSP. And then you can route the M/C (and don’t use the crossover functionality in the M32) to 2 outputs on the M32 and feed one of them to the other input on the right DSP and the other output to the other input on the left DSP.

I agree with you, I'm sure I've been using the wrong terminology.  Yes, it has been mentioned about routing the M/C to 2 outputs.  I did not know that when I started this thread, but yes, I did read that and plan to do that now.  Actually, this whole thread started because I didn't fully understand how the routing works on my M32, and the snowball has turned into a boulder.

BTW a lot of us were basically saying the exact same thing just wording it differently. I hope we have helped you and not confused you.

I believe my use of the incorrect terminology again is what has made this go off the deep end.  Normally I would have preferred to speak with someone about this, instead of typing it all out.  You all have helped, and I have been the one confusing you.  My setup with how I use 2 DSP's is not the typical way this is done from what I gather, and I did not do a good job of explaining my setup initially.

I have read a lot of threads in this forum, and it seems to be one of the best online.  People are helpful, and they don't immediately go negative as is the case in other groups.

I really do appreciate the time that everyone took to reply to this, as frustrating as it may have been with my lack of proper terminology.  My inexperience with routing and how that works with a digital desk is where I got off track. 
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Jonathan Betts on February 13, 2018, 01:50:26 pm
With a 110Hz crossover between subs and tops you may find yourself still wanting to put things like guitar, snare, and rack  toms into the subs. Even vocals can sound thin. Are you boosting your subs in the DSP? If so the acoustic crossover will be higher than 110Hz.

 Just some things to think about if you decide to go this route. You may be better off just using the input channel  HP filters in your M32.
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Craig Hauber on February 13, 2018, 02:34:24 pm
Question all, I've been trying to wrap my head about this and can't figure it out. 

If you run aux fed subs, how can you get your set break music to sound right?  I'm sending the kick to my subs for the show, but then, for the break music, I can't just send that channel to the subs, as I will not get any of the full range.  And if I send that channel to L/R, I won't get any low end.  Is there something simple I'm missing?  I'm using a Midas M32. 

Side note, the last arena show I went to they were using a Midas Pro 2, and I saw the engineer adjust what I think was the low pass filter during the break music and heard the subs level go up, but I could be wrong.  (I didn't have the best view as I standing off to the side of FOH.)  Maybe they weren't using aux subs though.  I am just trying to learn how to get a great sound for the live show, but still have decent sounding break music without having to constantly adjust the EQ for break music.

With regards to the OP,
I've always liked a bit of contrast between "break" music and the actual performance. 
-Don't make it sound all tinny and weak, but do have it a bit less "full" sounding than your band mix. 
I also use it as a time to reduce the SPL and allow everyone's ears to adjust back to normal a bit (for loud bands in small bars) -Also is a good time for the bar to make money so obliterating the patrons trying to order drinks with concert-level SPL isn't helpful (something that I've fought with for years when the club DJ provides the break music)

Another consideration is that for a "subs-on-aux" type rig I have had the best results with a relatively full-range (but tight) PA that still sounds good without any of the subs active.  Then using the subs as an effect on inputs that generate material in that range. 
If you find yourself adding sub-aux to inputs that aren't considered bass-range just to make them sound natural then your PA is inadequate or crossed-over too high. 
In that situation I recommend just running all your PA with subs included as a standard left/right 3 or 4-way (properly aligned using DSP system processing) and then using a dbx120 or Maxxbass type effect on an aux for LF effects
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: John L Nobile on February 13, 2018, 02:40:54 pm
If you're not comfortable with the routing on that board, may I suggest that you not do aux subs and just take L/R out for gigs and play with the routing when you have some downtime. Look at some online video help. Here's one example of many

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC-TisL8oQ0

Honestly, not being familiar with how the routing works on a board can lead to no sound or blowing speakers. And everything in between.
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Matt Greiner on February 13, 2018, 02:59:45 pm
With a 110Hz crossover between subs and tops you may find yourself still wanting to put things like guitar, snare, and rack  toms into the subs. Even vocals can sound thin. Are you boosting your subs in the DSP? If so the acoustic crossover will be higher than 110Hz.

 Just some things to think about if you decide to go this route. You may be better off just using the input channel  HP filters in your M32.

I may have to play around with this, as several people have mentioned this.  I have based my 110 Hz crossover point on information from the manufacturer as well as many user who have the same subs.  They actually also recommend that we put a small PEQ on at 100 Hz and cut about 2.5 dB, which I do in my DSP.
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Matt Greiner on February 13, 2018, 03:37:24 pm
If you're not comfortable with the routing on that board, may I suggest that you not do aux subs and just take L/R out for gigs and play with the routing when you have some downtime.
John, this is exactly what I'm doing now, exploring these potential options on my downtime.  That's why I'm asking questions.  To learn.

I have watched many videos on the M32, both prior to purchasing and since.  My last board was a PreSonus 16.4.2. the M32 is a different animal.  There are many videos and resources available, including people in this forum.

Honestly, not being familiar with how the routing works on a board can lead to no sound or blowing speakers. And everything in between.
In some cases, yes.  However, in this example, I disagree.  If you read my other posts, you would know that I use external DSP.  I have the proper settings in the DSP for crossovers and limiters.  You could take any desk/mixer, plug it into my system, and off we go, no need to configure any crossovers in the desk/mixer.  Could you boost frequencies and/or clip a signal and damage the gear, yes, absolutely, someone drops a live mic, yep.  No crossover can protect from those situations.  But that is not due to routing when you are using an external DSP.  Now, if I were to rely solely on the built in DSP in the M32, then yes, you would be correct.  Am I missing something? 

Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 13, 2018, 03:40:27 pm
With a 110Hz crossover between subs and tops you may find yourself still wanting to put things like guitar, snare, and rack  toms into the subs. Even vocals can sound thin. Are you boosting your subs in the DSP? If so the acoustic crossover will be higher than 110Hz.

 Just some things to think about if you decide to go this route. You may be better off just using the input channel  HP filters in your M32.

Doubtful on a correctly configured and deployed system.  I find myself high passing male vocals around 140Hz with the steep HPF on the Avid Profile/SC48, and closer to 200Hz on a Yammy M7.  SM-58, in close...

Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Matt Greiner on February 13, 2018, 03:47:54 pm
Another consideration is that for a "subs-on-aux" type rig I have had the best results with a relatively full-range (but tight) PA that still sounds good without any of the subs active.  Then using the subs as an effect on inputs that generate material in that range. 
If you find yourself adding sub-aux to inputs that aren't considered bass-range just to make them sound natural then your PA is inadequate or crossed-over too high. 
In that situation I recommend just running all your PA with subs included as a standard left/right 3 or 4-way (properly aligned using DSP system processing) and then using a dbx120 or Maxxbass type effect on an aux for LF effects

Since you bring this up, I have another question.  When you guys do run aux subs, do you still have some subs that are connected to the main PA as if you were running just a L/R mix, and then have others connected to an aux?  Or are all the subs in the rig on the aux?
I ask this, because on another group or forum, I read a few members say that they ran their rig this way with some on the main L/R and some on aux.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 13, 2018, 03:51:50 pm
Doubtful on a correctly configured and deployed system.  I find myself high passing male vocals around 140Hz with the steep HPF on the Avid Profile/SC48, and closer to 200Hz on a Yammy M7.  SM-58, in close...

This. Snare, high toms, and guitars also do not need to get to the subs.

Mac
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: William Schnake on February 13, 2018, 04:09:54 pm
Since you bring this up, I have another question.  When you guys do run aux subs, do you still have some subs that are connected to the main PA as if you were running just a L/R mix, and then have others connected to an aux?  Or are all the subs in the rig on the aux?
I ask this, because on another group or forum, I read a few members say that they ran their rig this way with some on the main L/R and some on aux.  Thoughts?

Matt, I can't say what others do, but we always run all of the subs on an aux to control the amount of signal going to them.  As far as what I put in the Aux sub mix: Kick, Floor Tom (if needed), Bass Guitar, Keys (if needed), Playback.  That's it, nothing else unless we get something that needs more low end.  Our subs cross-over at 98 Hz.

Bill
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Jonathan Betts on February 13, 2018, 04:11:53 pm
This. Snare, high toms, and guitars also do not need to get to the subs.

Mac

I agree if your tops are capable of being high passed at 70Hz or lower. I am only speaking in the Op’s case here. I didn’t mean for it to be a generalization.
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on February 13, 2018, 04:20:32 pm
I agree if your tops are capable of being high passed at 70Hz or lower. I am only speaking in the Op’s case here. I didn’t mean for it to be a generalization.

All generalizations are false.  ;D
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: David Allred on February 13, 2018, 04:30:45 pm
All generalizations are false.  ;D
Generally speaking.
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 13, 2018, 05:05:21 pm
Since you bring this up, I have another question.  When you guys do run aux subs, do you still have some subs that are connected to the main PA as if you were running just a L/R mix, and then have others connected to an aux?  Or are all the subs in the rig on the aux?
I ask this, because on another group or forum, I read a few members say that they ran their rig this way with some on the main L/R and some on aux.  Thoughts?

There are legitimate reasons to do this but most of them are either A) making up for a "main" system that doesn't have the needed LF output or B) where the aux-driven subs are more for sonic effect than for LF bandwidth extension.

Having to assist top boxes isn't new or limited to any particular array geometry but to use vertical arrays in an example, look at JBL's VerTec 4887/a and 4886.  Both have companion LF/"sub" modules that extend the bandwidth of the "tops" but do not replace bigger subwoofers on the ground (or flown beside or behind the top boxes).

Now I'll poke you with the Stick of Wisdom® - don't let the "routing" of the M32 mess with your head.  If you were capable of hooking this up correctly with an analog mixer you will be successful with the M32.   I strongly suggest you go to Midas's site and download "M-32 Edit" for your computer.  It's significantly easier to navigate than the menu structure on the mixer itself.

I agree if your tops are capable of being high passed at 70Hz or lower. I am only speaking in the Op’s case here. I didn’t mean for it to be a generalization.

Even the SRX715/815sp are quite capable below 80Hz.  We're still in the Classic LAB® last time I looked, where most of the users tend to be aware of the trade offs in their system designs.  That's my generalisation.
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Jim McKeveny on February 14, 2018, 10:07:56 am
We're still in the Classic LAB® last time I looked

Thanks for saying that Tim.

"Break Music" typically doesn't require sub output, from where I stand.
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Matt Greiner on February 14, 2018, 11:01:34 am
Thanks for saying that Tim.

"Break Music" typically doesn't require sub output, from where I stand.

Wanting to keep a balanced, full sound when on break doesn't fit your requirements for discussion in this group?

Correct me if I'm reading your post wrong,  but are you saying that music played when doors open and also on break shouldn't have any sub output?

Now I'll poke you with the Stick of Wisdom® - don't let the "routing" of the M32 mess with your head.  If you were capable of hooking this up correctly with an analog mixer you will be successful with the M32.   I strongly suggest you go to Midas's site and download "M-32 Edit" for your computer.  It's significantly easier to navigate than the menu structure on the mixer itself.

This whole post is because I didn't fully understand the routing of my new digital desk.  Yes, I made a simple mistake.  But that's why I asked a question, to learn, now, before the season gets into full swing for me. Tim said what I've known the whole time, but I didn't know how to say in a post without coming off sounding like a jerk.  I know how to set my system up properly and have it work with analog (the Presonus I had didn't require any routing.)  I'm always interested in how we all do the same thing, but take different approaches at it.  Thanks for saying that Tim.  And also on the advise of the M32-edit, it is easier to navigate than the mixer menus.  I'm sure it will help me get more comfortable with the menus on the mixer with some time.
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 14, 2018, 12:51:31 pm
Wanting to keep a balanced, full sound when on break doesn't fit your requirements for discussion in this group?

Correct me if I'm reading your post wrong,  but are you saying that music played when doors open and also on break shouldn't have any sub output?



That's where my comment about being in the Classic LAB came from.  At your local arena or stadium or theater show the walk in music and set change music is audio wallpaper.  It's not part of the *entertainment* usually although some genres and performers want to "keep the party going" on breaks (and on Rapper Daylight Savings Time that could be a long time) but they're more exception than rule.

Bars and clubs are not the mainstay of most Classic LAB forum users.  We predominately work with "Performers You've Heard Of" in venues where sales of alcohol are not the primary source of revenue.  If that's where you are playing and working the expectations are different, but for most of us if the set change music is lacking below 60Hz its not a problem and in fact may be desired by the performers.

So is it desirable to have walk in music in the subs?  Sure, unless it's not.  ;)  Does it matter?  Maybe -it depends on the genre, venue and performers (and mostly the performers).
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: David Allred on February 14, 2018, 01:02:54 pm

  We predominately work with "Performers You've Heard Of" in venues where sales of alcohol are not the primary source of revenue.  If that's where you are playing and working the expectations are different, but for most of us if the set change music is lacking below 60Hz its not a problem and in fact may be desired by the performers.

So is it desirable to have walk in music in the subs?  Sure, unless it's not.  ;)  Does it matter?  Maybe -it depends on the genre, venue and performers (and mostly the performers).

Are you referring to crowd walk-in or artist "walk-in / intro" music?  Some artists have very elaborate productions just to get on stage.  For those, best have the subs active for that playback. :)
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 14, 2018, 01:07:39 pm
Are you referring to crowd walk-in or artist "walk-in / intro" music?  Some artists have very elaborate productions just to get on stage.  For those, best have the subs active for that playback. :)

Audience walk in.  If I meant Artist Intro I would have specifically said so.

We're a very performer-centric company.  We/I understand how to treat performer intros.
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Matt Greiner on February 14, 2018, 01:48:08 pm
Bars and clubs are not the mainstay of most Classic LAB forum users.  We predominately work with "Performers You've Heard Of" in venues where sales of alcohol are not the primary source of revenue.  If that's where you are playing and working the expectations are different, but for most of us if the set change music is lacking below 60Hz its not a problem and in fact may be desired by the performers.

So is it desirable to have walk in music in the subs?  Sure, unless it's not.  ;)  Does it matter?  Maybe -it depends on the genre, venue and performers (and mostly the performers).
Yes, I primarily do bars and cover bands.  I still want to put on the best show I possibly can, from start to finish.  I just didn't want to have an awesome sounding band, and then completely drop everything 110 Hz and below on break.  I did not mean to be posting in the wrong forum for assistance.

With regards to the OP,
I've always liked a bit of contrast between "break" music and the actual performance. 
-Don't make it sound all tinny and weak, but do have it a bit less "full" sounding than your band mix. 
I also use it as a time to reduce the SPL and allow everyone's ears to adjust back to normal a bit (for loud bands in small bars) -Also is a good time for the bar to make money so obliterating the patrons trying to order drinks with concert-level SPL isn't helpful (something that I've fought with for years when the club DJ provides the break music)
I also have always felt this way, that it is "break" music, not "show" music.  It is a supplement to the event, not THE event. 
This quote from Craig is all I have been trying to accomplish from the beginning, making a band sound awesome, and still having the fill music be "full sounding".  My brain was stuck a single channel, and I couldn't see the flow of signal for my prerecorded music to get to the sub aux.  It is a simple routing issue on a new piece of gear that I have now figured out, thanks to the users on this forum. 
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Jim McKeveny on February 16, 2018, 07:30:46 am
Generally speaking.

Bonus points for that!
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Wes Garland on February 17, 2018, 08:03:52 pm
Depending on the type of show, I often play modern pop as break music and pack the dance floor with it.  Believe me, this stuff needs LF extension or it just sounds /wrong/.

I'm not quite sure I understand the OP's problem, though.  Treat the break music just like any other full range signal.  How do you route your kick drum?  If you send it ONLY to the subs, you will lose your beater click....all boom and no definition.

On my system, I use the M/C as the subwoofer aux.  Any input that needs to be full range gets that checkbox checked when I'm routing to Main L/R.   I have "M/C depends on Main L/R" checked in the system setup so that pulling down the main fader kills the subs, too.

I do my system processing in the X32, I am mobile and often rent FOH at the last minute, even though the stage package stays constant.  If the FOH is full-range, I disable the high-pass on the Main L/R output.  If the FOH needs something special, I will develop a snippet for whatever that something is, and save it in the console (and on my USB stick, which never leaves the console except to make backups).  My usual setup is to have the Main L/R and M/C crossed over at 100Hz using the LR24 filters.

I like having the system processing in the X32, when I rent FOH I don't have time to learn another system processor, although I could use a Driverack if push came to shove.  Another nice benefit of using the console as the system processor in a mobile rig is that I can time-align the outputs independently, allowing me to delay the system to the backline and align the subs to the mains.  Then I can walk to the audience area with my iPad and tweak the delay if necessary. I also have Matrix 6 set aside to use as a delayed sub for creating a cardioid configuration, but I haven't had time to try this, yet.

I run my laptop into the X-USB for the break music, so I don't use up any analog inputs.  I have successfully played break music over USB while recording 32 tracks with my laptop.   I use a mute group to mute the band without muting the break music.

Wes
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Matt Greiner on February 18, 2018, 03:13:01 am
Had a great show on Friday night, was able to figure out the routing issues I had.  Again, just couldn't wrap my head around the routing initially.  It was a "duh" kind of moment.  System sounded great with aux subs, i don't think I'll be able to go back to just L/R. 
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: William Schnake on February 18, 2018, 09:53:19 am
Glad to see you got it worked out Matt.

Bill
Title: Re: Aux fed subs and break music
Post by: Matt Greiner on February 18, 2018, 10:35:41 am
Glad to see you got it worked out Matt.

Bill

I appreciate the initial help Bill!