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Title: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Yoan Geay on December 19, 2017, 12:12:11 pm
Hi Everybody,

Brand New here, I've been browsing tons of Forums for a few days now, lots of Topics have provided me many valuable informations.
But I've decided to Post my own thing & collect some advices from you. You seem to be the most active Lighting Forum Community out there, and here is probably the best place for me to start a conversation with you guys.
So I hope it's not too late to join the Family & that you'll be able to enlighten me. [Pun intended]

So Yeah, I'm diving into the DMX World for the First time, [Someone has to do it...]. I've found plenty of informations here & there around the Internet but yet, I still got Questions that has been left unanswered, aside to the fact that I'm asking for some help to accomplish the vision I have.

Speaking of Budget, first things first, I'm planning on a ~1500€ Budget. [Roughly $1800]
But aside from which Fixtures/Lights I'm going to buy, this topic is mostly about what do I need in order to accomplish what I want to do.

So here we go, the Goal is as follow :

Ok so let's stop here for now & Resume a little bit :
Another thing is that some manage to do this via a Computer.
But I'd rather want a DMX Controller instead, that will allow me to do all of this with the FCB1010 Footswitch (or something similar with One or Two Expressions Pedals for Blackouts).

So the Question is : Which DMX Controllers/Footswitches would you advice me to get, or whatever it is, in order to accomplish all of this ?
Maybe a simple look, [Stage Wise], at what I'm planning to do could help :
(https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2017/51/2/1513703155-stage.png)

Thanks a lot for any inputs you'd take the time to bring on the table.


EDIT : For now, I'm looking at :
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Steve Garris on December 19, 2017, 02:23:52 pm
The controller looks very typical of many low-cost units I've seen, and will probably be ok for simple scenes and chases. Not sure how well it will handle movers though.
Bigger question is how to input midi to that pedal board. I think you need to be looking at software based dmx, in which you would skip the controller completely. Hopefully more knowledgeable posters will reply (I need to learn midi!).
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Yoan Geay on December 19, 2017, 03:13:29 pm
Hey Steve !
Thank you for stoping by, it's already cool to have your point on the situation.

Yeah, I've seen people managing to do all of this without a DMX Controller, but using "DMXis Software" instead, then pilote everything with the FBC1010 Footswitch.
Like I said, avoiding having a Laptop on Stage would be great, because I don't have one to begin with  ;D, and would probably cost more than this 180€ DMX Controler.

And I don't know, I'm holding back on using a Laptop on Stage because I'm not really sure where I'm going to put it, [on a Safe Spot you know]. If I buy an Occasion Laptop, & it crashes in the middle of the Show, [Doesn't Restart for whatever reason] then the whole Show is F**ked...

I'm not entirely closed to this eventuality but, in my mind, a DMX Controller that accept to be driven by a MIDI Footswitch is much more reliable. I virtually can put the DMX Controller anywhere, with little to no risks at all. Though, I could be totally wrong here...

And I know I'm asking for something relatively complex to accomplish... But, that's whats great about it, it's interesting & if somehow I can manage to do it, I'd put on a really cool Lighting Show !
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Rich Grisier on December 19, 2017, 03:34:57 pm
Your planned setup looks very similar to the one I use with my bands.

The first thing we need to address is your budget... I'll tell you right away that $1800 isn't going to get you to your goal.  Small movers like the Chauvet Intimidator 255 IRC are going to run about $500 each. Putting 4 of those on your back truss is already going to blow your budget.  Don't go any smaller than that for movers.  You won't be happy with the results.  Any smaller and your washes will overpower the movers.

That being said, let's put budget aside for now and define a modest system based on your layout:

Movers: (4) Chauvet Intimidator 255 IRC
Washes: (9) Blizzard Lighting LB Par HEX
Truss: Global Truss Arch
Controller: FCB1010
Computer: Nothing super fancy needed.  I use a small Lenovo X130E.
DMX Software: DMXIS... maybe MPC.  I'm using DMXIS with a DMC Ground Control (Original, not Pro) foot controller. It can do all the controls you've described.
Hazer: Antari Z-350
Misc: Clamps, DMX Cables, Midi Cables, Hazer fluid, Cases

AND... I'm making a BIG assumption that you have a means to transport it all.

The VERY rough price on all that would run about $6000 USD.

IF your goal is to meet your vision, then work on building up to it.  Buy the good stuff up front.  Don't fall into the trap of getting some washes or movers that "work for now".  You'll end up taking a loss.  You could start with 6 washes, and hold off on the movers for now.

Now, if you are willing to modify your vision and are looking to get the most bang-for-the-buck... I've seen top local bands using a couple Chauvet Gig Bars in back, a few washes out front, and a fogger from Halloween Spirit store.  It gets the job done.  Total investment in something like that would be around your budget.
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Yoan Geay on December 19, 2017, 04:26:27 pm
Hey Rich ! Thank you !

Yes, we have what's needed for Transport (Two Members have Vans)
You're absolutely right though, Moving Heads is something I've put on the "Stage Configuration Image", but I should've mentionned that it's something that will happen "Down the Road", not straight ahead.

In fact, many things will happen with time, I'm just showing the Global Thought I have in my mind.
If I had to point you what is going to happen straight ahead, [Roughly], that'd be :

I know that everything that I've linked sounds Cheap & Unworthy, but I'm trying hard to get the best that I can get with what I have...
If I stick to these links, the whole package goes up to ~1350.40€.
[If 6x RGBA Cans for Backlight & 4x RGBW Cans for Front]

So yeah, mostly we'll go for PARs at first.
I see that you're also pointing towards a Laptop Configuration... Maybe I should start moving my mind in that direction. There's no way a simple DMX Controller unit can do the Job ? (Coupled with the FCB1010)

Many Thanks to you again, you've been a great source of help & direction to go for.


EDIT : By the way, for Front Lighting, what is recommended ? RGBA - RGBW - RGB ? 36-48-56-64 ?
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Jeff Lelko on December 19, 2017, 04:39:53 pm
Hi Yoan,

Congratulations on diving into the fun world of DMX, and it's great that you're asking questions before spending money.  I agree with Steve - you're going to want a more capable controller.  It doesn't have to be a computer, but any of the very cheap controllers such as what you listed are difficult to program and struggle with even the most basic of programming concepts.  It's really a "you get what you pay for" thing here.  While you certainly don't need anything high end, you'll be hitting the wall with this controller way too quickly and it'll leave you wanting more.  I'd honestly suggest getting the controller "right" on the first attempt and going from there.  That way you'd have a strong foundation to grow from.  Using a PC really isn't that bad.  If the idea of a laptop on stage scares you, you can always consider using a rackmount PC.  Most larger lighting consoles these days are just computers on the inside, so while mishaps do happen, with proper care you'll be just fine.  Alternatively, there are solutions on the market that you essentially download scenes or "looks" into and then just use the standalone box for playback.  Pros and cons with everything, but food for thought.

Buy the good stuff up front.  Don't fall into the trap of getting some washes or movers that "work for now".  You'll end up taking a loss.  You could start with 6 washes, and hold off on the movers for now.

While I don't entirely disagree with your point, disposable fixtures are a reasonable way to get up and running without a huge investment.  No, you certainly can't expect the world from them, but if it's a quantity versus quality versus nothing at all kind of thing, I see lower cost fixtures as a reasonable compromise.  There are also a number of users here that base their whole rig on disposable (or sub-$100) fixtures with quite good results!  Just my vote, but I'd personally push more money to the controller and get that right first, and then upgrade the fixtures as needed/wanted.  I'd also vote to go with a cheaper trussing kit, but a lot of that comes down to artistic vision as well.  Hope that helps!
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Rich Grisier on December 19, 2017, 05:06:20 pm
You're welcome! Happy to share ideas here.

I went down the road of trying to get midi foot controllers to work with stand alone DMX controllers.  For some reason, the DMX controllers I had (Chauvet Obey 70, Elation Magic 260) look for Midi NOTE commands to change scenes. These are fixed in the DMX controller.  The DMX controllers have a very limited amount of available control when it comes to Midi.

Computer based DMX control offers a LOT more flexibility.  After the expense of the computer and Midi foot controller, You might be able to get away with some free software (Freestyler, or MPC), A cheap USB to DMX adapter like THIS (https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-USB-to-DMX-Interface-Adapter-DMX512-Computer-PC-Satge-Lighting-Controller-US-/281730984904), and some way to get midi from the controller to the computer (I use a Midisport 2x2).  I'm not very familiary with Freestyler or MPC so maybe someone else can chime in on their MIDI capabilities.  DMXIS has a lot of MIDI capabilities built in.  MIDI PC's can be used to change the Scene, or Bank of Scenes.  MIDI CC's can be used to control any virtual faders. 
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Rich Grisier on December 19, 2017, 05:25:36 pm
EDIT : By the way, for Front Lighting, what is recommended ? RGBA - RGBW - RGB ? 36-48-56-64 ?

For front lights I'm using two Blizzard RGBW RokBox's per side.  Before that, I used one Chauvet 4-Bar per side.  The RokBox's were a HUGE improvement.  Light output was like 3x brighter. The 2 RokBox's made it look like the 4-Bars weren't even on.

I got a good deal on used RokBox's (on PSW as a matter of fact), but I wish they were RGBA.  I use Blizzard Q12A's (also got here) across the back line. I find that adding the W- even a little- just washes out the color a bit too much. I rarely use it unless I want a pink or an icy blue... or when I'm tearing down at the end of the night.  Adding in some A gives things a healthier happy glow so my vote would be RGBA's.

Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Yoan Geay on December 19, 2017, 05:35:00 pm
Hey Jeff ! Thank you for the warm Welcoming :)

Awesome feedback here, really valuable, I'll definitely consider investing more on the Controller as you suggest, & build from here.
You did get the point to all of this, the Goal is to have decent results for a small gigging Band like us, the plan is definitely not to Light up Wembley Stadium next weekend. [Just Kidding ;)]

Anyway, I'll keep track of your take on the Subject, & work around it.

PS : I think we've been posting together at the same time, got my previous post listed just above yours, if you happen to take a look at it.

----------------------------------------

Rich,

Alright, I'm going to work my head around all of this. DMXis seems like it's the way to go, [at First], I'll need some time to do some Research on everything you've provided me so far.

[Thank you for the hints on Front Lighting, I brought up RGBW but I was mostly tending towards RGBA as a first guess aswell, because of the "Warmer" global Feel around it]

You guys have been great, many thanks !
I'll surely keep in touch.
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Yoan Geay on December 20, 2017, 01:00:19 am
Hey Guys ! I think I found something close to what I was looking for.
[Well, Sort of... Maybe ? ???]

I've been browsing the Web for the past 6+ hours, gathering informations here & there.
[I've literally Clicked & Red every single Forums Links through 30+ Google Pages lol]

So while I've been doing this, I sort of made a Compilation, copy/pasted lots of Comments on a "Windows Note Pad" just to keep them around.

& now that I'm thinking about sharing all that stuff with you, & discuss about it.
I figured out that I don't want to bother you & ask you what's your thoughts on each & every one of them. It would be a pain for everyone, & would consume to much of your time reading through them all.

So the best way for me to share a quick résumé with you is by this quick video I found from a man.

He's running his Obey70 with the FCB1010, & seemed to have successfuly accomplish something close to what I'm trying to do. The crazy thing is that he had it working just fine, straight out of the Box !
[Plug & Play Fashion] :o
It's weird because, earlier, Rich Grisier mentionned somes issues he had with the Obey70...
It seems like it turned out quite good for this man. Little bit confused here...

Here's the Video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TK3CO11BwA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TK3CO11BwA)
[Poor quality as he kept touching his Phone's Microphone, but don't let that bring you down.
It turned out to be ok all along]

Few Comments under the Video :
          -----------------------------------------------

Quite close from what I want, no ? What do you think about it, generally speaking ?

He demonstrates only one Expression Pedal, which seems to activate the Strobe Effect from his Fixtures, which is quite cool to me. It makes me wonder though :

I don't want to rush things out, but I feel like I'm slowly getting closer to what I had in mind at the beginning. Still thinking though !
Title: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Terry Martin on December 20, 2017, 11:03:54 am
If that setup would work good for you, then you can probably find both very cheap used.  I believe you will have trouble with movers and channel count.  But you could move up to software solution later.  We’ve got a fairly large club rig but have our sound engineer dual capped as lighting “guy” too, running a Show Designer 2.   8 movers, and several led pars and a couple of conventional pars for front lighting. 

https:://www.facebook.com/BombshellRox


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Yoan Geay on December 20, 2017, 12:03:18 pm
Hi Terry ! Thanks for stoping by !

Yeah, other Members mentionned the Moving Heads issue, I have to say that I don't necessarily want an Obey70. I'm looking out for different options. Now I'm primarily diving into the global concept of "Controlling Lights/Scenes/Effects" with a quite versatile Footswitch.
[In that case, the FCB1010 seems like a Reference in this Field of Applications]

We're not even close to have our own dedicated Sound/Light guy ;D

It has been suggested to me to invest a little bit more on a good DMX Controller, [A good foundation to build on], maybe one that can handle Movers in a better way. I admit, I'm not sure where/what to look out for a good Starting Point though...

But I'm searching ! :)

PS : As I'm gathering Informations that might be usefull to whoever, (other than me), is searching for help, I just found a recent Brand New Video touching on the Programmation of the FCB1010.
The possibilities are quite impressive. It has been posted just a Week ago, so that's great.

I just have to figure out how deep it can go as for Controlling a DMX Device & its Features... Not simple.

BEHRINGER FCB1010 - Programmation Video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYNND5nMWhc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYNND5nMWhc)
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Yoan Geay on December 20, 2017, 12:10:26 pm
[Woops, missclicked : Double Post]
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Terry Martin on December 20, 2017, 12:26:04 pm
A friend of mine in Alabama that used to post here a lot used a Show Designer 1 with FCB.   The SD 1 evidently spoke same MIDI language as the FCB.  The SD2 does not.


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Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 20, 2017, 01:43:52 pm
A friend of mine in Alabama that used to post here a lot used a Show Designer 1 with FCB.   The SD 1 evidently spoke same MIDI language as the FCB.  The SD2 does not.


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Both are documented in the manual:

Show designer 2:

MIDI
Show Designer 2 lets you trigger scenes with MIDI commands. The scene page and number is
encoded in a MIDI message that is sent to the Show Designer’s MIDI output when a scene is
selected using the number switches or the “go” switch. The “black” switch also sends a MIDI
message allowing you to record a blackout or blackout restore. If that same MIDI message is
returned to the MIDI input, that scene will be called. Since the Show Designer uses its own
type of MIDI message to record scene changes it is recommended that you use the Show
Designer to record the performance.
The Show Designer 2 uses MIDI continuous controller messages to send and receive scene
changes and blackouts.
The message format for scene changes is as follows:
0Bx pp nn, where x is the MIDI channel (0-f hex, 0-15 dec.), pp is the scene page (0-98
decimal) and nn is the scene number (0-47 decimal).
The message format for blackouts is as follows:
0Bx nn vv, where x is the MIDI channel (0-f hex, 0-15 dec.), nn equals 99 decimal and vv is
non zero for blackout on and zero for blackout off.

Show Designer 1:

MIDI
This manual assumes that you have a basic understanding of how MIDI works along with MDI messages
and MIDI channels.
With MIDI you can use a MIDI sequencer or MIDI keyboard to automate a performance. Show Designer
1 uses MIDI note messages to call scenes and shows. Six pages of scenes and one page of shows can be
called using MIDI note messages on a single MIDI channel. This gives you access to 96 scenes and 16
shows per MIDI channel. Note numbers 0-95 are used to call scenes and note numbers 96-111 are used to
call shows. MIDI only provides 128 notes per MIDI channel so that limits how many scenes and shows
can be called using a single channel.
Show Designer 1 will also send MIDI note messages whenever a scene or show is called using the front
panel switches. This allows you to use the Show Designer 1 as the source when recording a MIDI
performance. Rather than trying to calculate which note number to use for a scene, simply record the
output from the Show Designer 1 while calling scenes.
You can have access to more than 96 scenes by using extra MIDI channels. When you select the MIDI
channel from the setup menu you can also enable additional channels by setting “Extra Channels” to a
value of 1 - 9. When “Extra Channels” is set to 0, you will only receive on the selected MIDI channel.
When set to 1, you will receive on the selected MIDI channel as well as the next higher MIDI channel. You
can use up to 9 additional MIDI channels. Each channel will address six additional pages of scenes. If for
example you are using MIDI channel 1 and you have enabled 2 extra channels, scene pages 1-6 will use
MIDI channel 1, scene pages 7-12 will use MIDI channel 2 and scene pages 13-18 will use MIDI channel
3. Each MIDI channel will use the same note numbers 0-95.
When a MIDI note message is received it will call a scene or start a show that corresponds to that note
number. If the same note number is received while the scene or show is running, the scene or show will be
turned off. If a different note number is received, a new scene or show will replace the one that is running.
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Terry Martin on December 20, 2017, 02:01:39 pm
Yeah, but I don’t have a “basic understanding of MIDI” - and don’t plan to, fit that matter.   But, it is not plug and play, as the video above showed (on an Obey). 

Both are documented in the manual:

Show designer 2:

MIDI
Show Designer 2 lets you trigger scenes with MIDI commands. The scene page and number is
encoded in a MIDI message that is sent to the Show Designer’s MIDI output when a scene is
selected using the number switches or the “go” switch. The “black” switch also sends a MIDI
message allowing you to record a blackout or blackout restore. If that same MIDI message is
returned to the MIDI input, that scene will be called. Since the Show Designer uses its own
type of MIDI message to record scene changes it is recommended that you use the Show
Designer to record the performance.
The Show Designer 2 uses MIDI continuous controller messages to send and receive scene
changes and blackouts.
The message format for scene changes is as follows:
0Bx pp nn, where x is the MIDI channel (0-f hex, 0-15 dec.), pp is the scene page (0-98
decimal) and nn is the scene number (0-47 decimal).
The message format for blackouts is as follows:
0Bx nn vv, where x is the MIDI channel (0-f hex, 0-15 dec.), nn equals 99 decimal and vv is
non zero for blackout on and zero for blackout off.

Show Designer 1:

MIDI
This manual assumes that you have a basic understanding of how MIDI works along with MDI messages
and MIDI channels.
With MIDI you can use a MIDI sequencer or MIDI keyboard to automate a performance. Show Designer
1 uses MIDI note messages to call scenes and shows. Six pages of scenes and one page of shows can be
called using MIDI note messages on a single MIDI channel. This gives you access to 96 scenes and 16
shows per MIDI channel. Note numbers 0-95 are used to call scenes and note numbers 96-111 are used to
call shows. MIDI only provides 128 notes per MIDI channel so that limits how many scenes and shows
can be called using a single channel.
Show Designer 1 will also send MIDI note messages whenever a scene or show is called using the front
panel switches. This allows you to use the Show Designer 1 as the source when recording a MIDI
performance. Rather than trying to calculate which note number to use for a scene, simply record the
output from the Show Designer 1 while calling scenes.
You can have access to more than 96 scenes by using extra MIDI channels. When you select the MIDI
channel from the setup menu you can also enable additional channels by setting “Extra Channels” to a
value of 1 - 9. When “Extra Channels” is set to 0, you will only receive on the selected MIDI channel.
When set to 1, you will receive on the selected MIDI channel as well as the next higher MIDI channel. You
can use up to 9 additional MIDI channels. Each channel will address six additional pages of scenes. If for
example you are using MIDI channel 1 and you have enabled 2 extra channels, scene pages 1-6 will use
MIDI channel 1, scene pages 7-12 will use MIDI channel 2 and scene pages 13-18 will use MIDI channel
3. Each MIDI channel will use the same note numbers 0-95.
When a MIDI note message is received it will call a scene or start a show that corresponds to that note
number. If the same note number is received while the scene or show is running, the scene or show will be
turned off. If a different note number is received, a new scene or show will replace the one that is running.



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Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Rich Grisier on December 20, 2017, 02:08:42 pm
It's weird because, earlier, Rich Grisier mentionned somes issues he had with the Obey70...
It seems like it turned out quite good for this man. Little bit confused here...

The issue with the Obey 70 and MIDI foot controllers is the Obey 70 is controlled using Note On/Off commands.  Most midi foot controllers send just Program Change (PC) messages... some of the more advanced ones will also send Control Change (CC) messages.  Few are designed to send Note On/Off messages.  Fortunately, the FCB1010 can be set up to send Note On/Off messages.

The Obey 70 can do Scenes & Chase selection via MIDI... but it's what I'll call a 'Static Scene' controller.  By that I mean you can set up all your lights for a certain look then mark that as a scene, just as if you were to take a picture of it.  Then change color, mover position, etc... and then take another 'picture'.  Do this very tedious task 100 times and you now have 100 scenes.  You can then combine them into a Chase by going from one scene to another in some sequence like: 1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,5,2... Select that Chase and now your movers are moving from one scene to the next.  Tedious if you want movers to go in a box pattern (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4...) and maddening if you want them to go in a figure 8.

You could step up to a little better controller like an Elation Magic260.  It can handle movers better than the average Static Scene controller. It has built in programs for controlling movers with Circles, Figure-8's, Pans, Tilts.  This way you can define one scene that has the washes set to some static value while the movers are dynamic.  Impossible to do that with the Obey 70.

For a little more $ than the Magic260, you could go with a computer software setup (DMXIS, ShowDesigner, Freesyler, MPC) and have WAY more flexibility than the Obey 70 or the Magic260. That's probably why the Magic260 isn't available anymore.  Affordable flexible lighting control has migrated away from stand alone controllers towards computer based solutions.
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on December 20, 2017, 02:18:31 pm
Yoan:
   You are getting some good advice here and I agree about the controller advice, you likely could get most or all of what you currently want from a hardware controller but it is very likely you will be right up against one or more limitations of that controller at that point so any further improvements or additions you may want to make in the future will require a better controller at that point in time. So it makes a lot of sense to simply start out with a better controller, for what you plan to spend you can have a solid USB-DMX interface and there are now several free software packages that are vastly more capable than an entry level hardware controller.

But that wasn't the main thing I wanted to comment on. Is there any reason you have selected these traditional style Par can fixtures? One of the big upsides of LED lighting is that is can be much more compact than old skool pars which helps immensely with pack size and transportation.. and you would be giving that up with this selection. So LED flat pars of the same type would produce the same results and take up a lot less space, but I'm also going to suggest you move up to a better type of LED fixture as well. The basic thing about LEDs is the closer the individual silicon wafers are to one another the better a job they do at color mixing. So worst on that list are those that have a hugh panel of '80's vintage descrete LED diodes like those you selected, next up and significantly better are those that contain a smaller number of multi color(RGB, RGBW, RGBWA, etc) diodes on a flat panel such as this.. https://www.thomann.de/fr/stairville_quad_par_profile_5x8w_rgbw.htm
and then you get into COB technology which is better again because all of the raw diodes are clustered close together on a single small panel. https://www.thomann.de/fr/stairville_led_par_56_cob_rgbw_30w.htm You will notice with this version that it's back to a more traditional style par can again and that is because it uses a traditional reflector and lense. If you want a par can for it's look this is the way to go, but note that these cans have a wider beam angle than most of the other LED types so you may need less of them to flood a stage with color.
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Yoan Geay on December 20, 2017, 03:25:51 pm
Hey Paul !

Yeah, I'm still looking out for a better DMX Controller, just as I do not reject the Software Option either. In fact, I'm currently looking at a System that involves a Windows 10 Tablet, instead of a Computer.
[Some are Relatively Cheap], coupling this with the FCB1010. Any thoughts on that ?

[Keep in mind that I'm collecting informations for anyone that might be interested in some of the Options being discussed here, over another Option, Etc. If we can help many, & not just me, let's do it !]

So back in line, let me understand what you mean. [Please bear with me, as I'm totally new to this] ;)
When you say USB-DMX, what does it mean in terms of Hardware ?

As I'm guessing, does it mean that I'd have no more use of a DMX [Hardware] Controller ?
Because the Software would be the thing controlling my Fixtures ?
The Picture I have in mind at the moment is :

Do I get this correctly ? As simple as that ? It sounds really interesting considering the Tablet thing.
[It would need to have two USBs at least in that case]

----------------------------------------

Thank you for your feedback on the PARs, no particular reason behind my choice aside to Price, that it does RGBA & have good Reviews overall. But I get what you're saying on other Technologies (COB, Etc]. I will definitely look more into that.

PS : Rich, Scott & Terry, I've seen your contributions aswell, Thank you for the Input !
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on December 20, 2017, 04:05:46 pm

When you say USB-DMX, what does it mean in terms of Hardware ?

As I'm guessing, does it mean that I'd have no more use of a DMX [Hardware] Controller ?
Because the Software would be the thing controlling my Fixtures ?
The Picture I have in mind at the moment is :
  • The Software.
  • The USB > DMX to go from the Computer/Tablet to all of the Fixtures.
  • The MIDI > USB to connect the FCB1010 to the Comupter/Tablet.

Do I get this correctly ? It sounds really interesting considering the Tablet thing.
[It would need to have two USBs at least in that case]
That would do the Job, right ?

Yes you got it you don't need anything besides the computer(tablet) and your MIDI and DMX interfaces and the tablet is a great solution in a windows platform. These USB interfaces are getting more compact all the time now some are literally contained inside an XLR connector shell.. http://dmxking.com/usbdmx/ultradmxmicro
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Steve Garris on December 20, 2017, 07:40:29 pm
Yoan, sounds like you're getting some great advice here. I just clicked the link on your light selections, and agree with Paul's advice on getting flat pars with multi-colored led's as opposed to the 3mm "LiteBright" lights from when they first started showing up.

And I think Jeff mentioned cheap disposable lights. That is what I use, and most of my lights are less than $50. I've had them for about 3 years now and have not had a failure. The lightweight, plastic construction makes them easier to transport and set up. My main backlight is a RBGW 7-10 watt led that can be purchased in groups of 4 for about $33 each. They work fantastic at this price point.

For front spots, I use a simple Par 38 with a screw-in 90W halogen bulb that equals about 150 W equivalent. These lights are about $25 each, and I prefer them on peoples faces over most budget priced led's. I simply thread them on to the fly points on my speaker boxes. The photo below shows a single light, but I've since fabricated a bracket that holds 2 lights. One thumbscrew in to the speaker and I'm done. You can purchase a small dmx dimmer for these, but I just use them either off or on. I use a Rosco Rose gel in each front spot.

Below are pictures of the spot light, and our back lighting at one of our gigs. The cheap lights look great in numbers, and smoke is a must.
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Yoan Geay on December 20, 2017, 09:00:25 pm
Alright Paul !
Man, I'm seriously considering the Software/Tablet/DMX - MIDI > USB option...
As everyone keeps telling me that it's way more versatile, & offers a lot more capabilities.

In Addition to that : I wouldn't need to invest in a more capable DMX Controller for now, (as long as I don't need it). And when I do need one, then I wouldn't have had to spend money on something that is of no use anymore.
So... *Ahem*, I'll need some time to process this but I think it is all set up... :)

By the way, Thank you very much for providing Links for me to look at. Having a Direction on top of some Advices is always a good plus ! That little XLR thing is Crazy, Ahah.

XLR doesn't enter in conflict with DMX ? [if that makes any sense]
You know, the whole concept of : NEVER USE XLR CABLE FOR YOUR FIXTURES YOU FOOL - DMX ONLY ! 

-----------------------------------

If I may add, that something has changed in the setup though.
As, it's probably the case for Any DMX [Hardware] Solution, like the Obey70 for exemple, is that :
What I tried to figure out was, as you press the UP Pedal on the FCB1010 to navigate through your Banks & Scenes :
So Derek, [From the Video posted before : https://goo.gl/S9sxCd (https://goo.gl/S9sxCd)], who could use his FCB1010 to Control his Obey70. I asked him if he has been "Blocked" by the FCB1010, once it reaches Bank 10, or does it keep going through all of his, [Obey70's] Banks & Scenes. He responded :

Quote
Hey thanks man... I get where you are going.. I'm not really sure on that. I only have 9 banks filled with scenes as of now, I can access all of them via this process, but that is a good question! I have a gig this weekend on the 23... When I get my lights setup I'll make some simple scenes around 20 and up to 30 in the Banks on my obey and I'll let you know if I can access them Banks via the fcb1010 hopefully I can I guess we'll find out get back to you soon...

Now depending on his testing outcome, the Question is how a Software Based Option would React to the FCB1010 then... Hopefully I'll have more Infos from Derek around Christmas to share with you.
Even though, I think once the FCB1010 reaches his 10 Bank > Preset 10, it won't go up any further.
I'd be surprised if it does but, we'll get to know soon enough...

-----------------------------------

EDIT : Steve, sorry man almost forgot you ;D

Thank you for your Feedback on the PARs Cans aswell ! I'll make it up my mind !
Damn, these Photos looks Gorgeous, that's typically what I would be happy with. I think that's enough for what we do.
And you own that Full Truss Structure aswell ? Or was it the Venue's Propriety.
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on December 20, 2017, 10:49:18 pm

XLR doesn't enter in conflict with DMX ? [if that makes any sense]
You know, the whole concept of : NEVER USE XLR CABLE FOR YOUR FIXTURES YOU FOOL - DMX ONLY ! 

Both mic/interconnect cables and DMX cables use the same connectors it's just the cable that is different. And yes best practice is to use proper DMX cable but... I regularly use nothing but standard mic cables on lighting rigs without any issues, the key is to always use a DMX terminator at the end of the run.
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 21, 2017, 12:13:04 am


And yes best practice is to use proper DMX cable but... I regularly use nothing but standard mic cables on lighting rigs without any issues,

People have unprotected sex with prostitutes and don't contract VD, doesn't make it a good idea.

"Sorry dear, your wedding was ruined by that flashing fixture because I couldn't use the right cables"


Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Allen Smith on December 21, 2017, 12:36:50 am
I use a Chauvet Obey 40 Difi to control my show and use a FCB1010 along with it.  I wanted to avoid a laptop solution and dont feel like I compromised the quality significantly with the less elaborate controller.  I use the Chauvet wireless in the Obey 40 to get the signal to the light trees and then run off of the back trees to the movers.  The wireless works well at these distances.

I control the following:
4 - Chauvet Intimidator Spot 355
2 - Chauvet Spot Duo
4 - Chauvet 4Bar TRI USB

I use banks of the FCB1010 for a set of scenes for each of us that sing.  I have 2 banks for each member (we all sing) and two for specials.  I use the built in movement programs in the movers which actually works well.  You can adjust from a fast movement down to a slow sweep and it acts a lot like if I had programmed the movement myself.

Side note, the 4Bar TRI individual lights are actually brighter than the four of the Chauvet Slimpar64 and super easy to setup since they are already mounted on a bar.  The wireless is a bonus.

https://youtu.be/rclMyoBnEao
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on December 21, 2017, 12:53:59 am
"Sorry dear, your wedding was ruined by that flashing fixture because I couldn't use the right cables"
  Doesn't happen. I mean the uncontrolled flashing fixture, this is one of those cases where a small impedance mismatch doesn't have any effect. Wireless DMX.. now that is another story.
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Callan Browne on December 21, 2017, 06:36:00 am
Sorry I didn't read every reply yet, but just a word of caution that switching light scenes via foot switch every verse chorus solo etc., You'll be very distracted. The audience might be also if they pick up on what you're doing.
I had mine this way initially, but have since moved to something more straightforward so I can engage with he audience more.
Good luck with the search though, lights can really make a big impact
Cheers,

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Yoan Geay on December 21, 2017, 06:41:28 am
Allen, looks fantastic !
About the FCB1010 Bank System, as it goes up to a Maximum of 10 Banks.
And say we play 20+ Songs, where each Song would have it's dedicated Bank.
Then, I'd be F**ked... ?

When you say you're using the "Built-In", [Patterns of Movements], from your Movers...
You're still able to Select the Mover's Colors & still let them do their things ?

I'm asking this because, I wouldn't want my Movers to dispay "Drastically Opposite Colors".
You know, the Theoritical Concept of Colors Matching with certain Colors & not so much with others.
[Even though, there are no Rules really]
If you can set them to Match what your PARs are showing, while keeping them Free, then it's great !

Aside to that, you wouldn't change for the Solutions that I've been suggested to use ?
[Software/DMXis/Etc] I'm curious about your opinion on that.
Thank you for your Feedback !

-----------------------------

Paul,
Just to understand that XLR vs DMX thing. [The 120Ω Resistance Difference]
If you use an XLR, you then need a Terminator at the End of your Chain, but :

-----------------------------

Now, regarding the FCB1010 Limitations to 10 Banks, using a Software Based Solution, if it happens that it doesn't go further up, that probably wouldn't be a big deal though.
As I could :
That would be a Viable Option, correct ?

------------------------------

Hey Callan !
This "Issue" crossed my mind also... Only actual Practice will let me know what's best, so...
Thank you for the Input & the Encouragements, I'll keep that in mind !
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Callan Browne on December 21, 2017, 06:51:20 am
I use a Chauvet Obey 40 Difi to control my show and use a FCB1010 along with it.  I wanted to avoid a laptop solution and dont feel like I compromised the quality significantly with the less elaborate controller.  I use the Chauvet wireless in the Obey 40 to get the signal to the light trees and then run off of the back trees to the movers.  The wireless works well at these distances.

I control the following:
4 - Chauvet Intimidator Spot 355
2 - Chauvet Spot Duo
4 - Chauvet 4Bar TRI USB

I use banks of the FCB1010 for a set of scenes for each of us that sing.  I have 2 banks for each member (we all sing) and two for specials.  I use the built in movement programs in the movers which actually works well.  You can adjust from a fast movement down to a slow sweep and it acts a lot like if I had programmed the movement myself.

Side note, the 4Bar TRI individual lights are actually brighter than the four of the Chauvet Slimpar64 and super easy to setup since they are already mounted on a bar.  The wireless is a bonus.

https://youtu.be/rclMyoBnEao
Hey Allen, do you have any more pics of your truss? Both during set up and how much space in the truck it takes up?
I like your video, the back truss is where I'm thinking of going next.
Cheers

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on December 21, 2017, 11:54:37 am
Paul,
Just to understand that XLR vs DMX thing. [The 120Ω Resistance Difference]
If you use an XLR, you then need a Terminator at the End of your Chain, but :
  • Does that mean a proprer DMX Cable is a "Terminator" in itself ? Or do you still have to look out for a Special Cable with an already "Built-in" Terminator in it.

A DMX terrminator is a separate device usually just an XLR connector with a 120 ohm resistor soldered across pins 2 and 3.
(http://thatcable.com/WebImages/961_700x309.jpg)

And there is not 120ohm difference between mic and DMX cable there is only 10-20ohms difference in impedance(an AC spec.. resistance is DC), 100-110ohm for mic cable versus 120ohm for DMX. There are also other technical differences between mic and DMX cable, DMX uses a data transmission standard which technically operates at much high frequencies than audio so the cable should also be of a higher standard. But the reality of lounge level lighting rigs is that they usually don't cover large distances or large numbers of fixtures and the data traffic density on these little DMX networks are so light that the cable rules can be bent, but you will need a DMX terminator on the last fixture in the chain.

So what I suggest is that once you get rolling on this hook up the lighting with whatever cables you have on hand and get it working. But in the name of streamlining the setup/strike of the rig you should consider permanently mounting most or all of the fixtures in the truss and then build some custom DMX and electrical lines to connect it all together. And when you are doing that by all means buy a roll of proper DMX cable and make up the lengths you need.
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Terry Martin on December 21, 2017, 12:09:04 pm
I’ve been following your band on FB.  You’ve got a good looking light rig (our acts are similar). 

TM
Yoan, sounds like you're getting some great advice here. I just clicked the link on your light selections, and agree with Paul's advice on getting flat pars with multi-colored led's as opposed to the 3mm "LiteBright" lights from when they first started showing up.

And I think Jeff mentioned cheap disposable lights. That is what I use, and most of my lights are less than $50. I've had them for about 3 years now and have not had a failure. The lightweight, plastic construction makes them easier to transport and set up. My main backlight is a RBGW 7-10 watt led that can be purchased in groups of 4 for about $33 each. They work fantastic at this price point.

For front spots, I use a simple Par 38 with a screw-in 90W halogen bulb that equals about 150 W equivalent. These lights are about $25 each, and I prefer them on peoples faces over most budget priced led's. I simply thread them on to the fly points on my speaker boxes. The photo below shows a single light, but I've since fabricated a bracket that holds 2 lights. One thumbscrew in to the speaker and I'm done. You can purchase a small dmx dimmer for these, but I just use them either off or on. I use a Rosco Rose gel in each front spot.

Below are pictures of the spot light, and our back lighting at one of our gigs. The cheap lights look great in numbers, and smoke is a must.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Terry Martin on December 21, 2017, 12:17:33 pm
Some shots of our rig. 
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171221/251da38f4db21d1e27b433e4d2eb8911.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171221/10f4c7c20958ffe65326ffe26d9890e3.jpg)




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 21, 2017, 12:20:04 pm
  Doesn't happen. I mean the uncontrolled flashing fixture, this is one of those cases where a small impedance mismatch doesn't have any effect. Wireless DMX.. now that is another story.

I am unconcerned with the failure mode, just the tolerance for risk.

Their are lurkers on the forum that place great meaning and value into the advice proffered here.  You can do whatever you want and summer (or not) the potential consequences.

There is a big difference between assessing your situation and assuming a risk and telling other folks it's a good idea to use the wrong cable.

Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Yoan Geay on December 21, 2017, 12:26:18 pm
Ok, Thanks for the insight Paul !

-----------------------------------------------

[FCB1010] - Few things to discuss :
As I don't find any other good MIDI Footswitch, Layed-Out like this one.
[Practically speaking, it's quite the only one out there, (Really Popular for a reason)]

I think I've found two workarounds for the "Lack of Banks" issue on the Footswitch.
[Past Bank 10 - Preset 10] Here's the First One :
Quote
But also, wanted to add that you can program scenes for the other 15 midi channels as well, so you could actually have 128 scenes for midi channel 1, then another 128 for midi channel 2 and so on...so you could actually have 2,048 different scenes to choose from! Amazing stuff...

In Practice, that sounds quite tedious for a "Regular usage". If I go either by the "Software" solution or the "Hardware" one, [DMX Controller], it would probably be a pain in the a**, while Performing Live to :
Both the Footswitch & either the Software/Hardware have to be set up to the Same MIDI Channel in order to work together properly. Still, according to the Quote, that would work though. & maybe I'm wrong on the Practice Side of this too...

-----------------------------

The other way around :
Some of you may have heard about "Upgrades", just by simply replacing the EPROM Chip inside the FCB1010, really simple to do.
Do it Once > Done. [Few Screws to Remove > Replace the Chip by Hand (Less than 5min - Total)]

There are two Very Popular ones, specifically made for the FCB1010 :
But I've a found Third one ! Feasible, but more Complicated :
Sadly I can't find any places on the Internet that Sells this Kit.
If you have any other Ideas for a MIDI Footswitch, I'd take a look at everything you could provide.
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Steve Garris on December 21, 2017, 01:51:26 pm
I use a Chauvet Obey 40 Difi to control my show and use a FCB1010 along with it.  I wanted to avoid a laptop solution and dont feel like I compromised the quality significantly with the less elaborate controller.  I use the Chauvet wireless in the Obey 40 to get the signal to the light trees and then run off of the back trees to the movers.  The wireless works well at these distances.

I control the following:
4 - Chauvet Intimidator Spot 355
2 - Chauvet Spot Duo
4 - Chauvet 4Bar TRI USB

I use banks of the FCB1010 for a set of scenes for each of us that sing.  I have 2 banks for each member (we all sing) and two for specials.  I use the built in movement programs in the movers which actually works well.  You can adjust from a fast movement down to a slow sweep and it acts a lot like if I had programmed the movement myself.

Side note, the 4Bar TRI individual lights are actually brighter than the four of the Chauvet Slimpar64 and super easy to setup since they are already mounted on a bar.  The wireless is a bonus.

https://youtu.be/rclMyoBnEao

Very nice. Love the Spot Duo's!
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Steve Garris on December 21, 2017, 02:10:00 pm

Thank you for your Feedback on the PARs Cans aswell ! I'll make it up my mind !
Damn, these Photos looks Gorgeous, that's typically what I would be happy with. I think that's enough for what we do.
And you own that Full Truss Structure aswell ? Or was it the Venue's Propriety.

The truss belongs to the club, as well as the larger lights, but those are still $50 lights. We hang our T-Bar lights from their truss, doubling the venue's light show. I run it on a Magic 260 while mixing sound with an iPad.

My stand-alone rental consists of 3 light trees. The outer (2) are run by the Magic 260, and the center tree behind the drums is all sound activated. This way I can just bring the center tree for small, low money gigs and still provide some lighting but with no effort. When I use the dmx controller, I use the Donner wireless dmx transmitter & receivers, so no dmx cables at all (the tree's are pre-wired). They go up really quick.

This is some of my lights on trees, in a very small venue - the truss really makes a huge difference. I don't have 1 oz of room left in my truck, so trussing will have to come later when I can afford to by a larger vehicle.

Sorry for the crappy iPhone pic:
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Jeff Lelko on December 21, 2017, 08:50:01 pm
  Doesn't happen. I mean the uncontrolled flashing fixture, this is one of those cases where a small impedance mismatch doesn't have any effect. Wireless DMX.. now that is another story.

This absolutely does happen - maybe just not to you yet.  There’s more to the DMX cable than just a higher impedance, namely the cable type itself and that it’s specifically made to conform to the DMX specification.  Using anything that fails to meet this specification can cause undesired operation from fixtures such as flashing, jittering, etc. 

I’m not sure what you mean by “data traffic density” either as DMX is unidirectional and must conform to a very set standard.  I’m glad to hear that you’ve gotten lucky using regular XLR in your rig (and let’s face it, we’ve all done it), but I think that’s very poor advice to give someone just starting out with lighting.  Quality DMX doesn’t cost any more than quality XLR, so why not do it right and be done with it?  While all Daisy Chains should be terminated, a terminator is by no means a magic bullet that gives you a free pass to use inferior or improper cable.  In fact, if you read some of the publications by Doug Fleenor he even suggests that problems solved by using a terminator on a very short (under 500ft) line of DMX are usually indicative of a deeper issue within the system such as poor cable, weak console signal, etc., and not just lack of termination.  My experience tends to agree with him.
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Allen Smith on December 21, 2017, 09:30:37 pm
Im gonna try and respond to all your questions but if I miss one ask it again.

You might be over thinking how many scenes you need.  The reality is that having 10 good scenes or in my example 2 banks of ten provides all the variety you need.  I would go so far as to say you run out of interesting combinations after that.  I am a fan of no more than 2 colors at a time which is kind of an old school PAR show thing.  The other important part is to get angles so that your colors arent just mixing to create white.  An example, I hit the back of the drums with one color and the front sides with another so you get some cool depth and color effect.  Some of the best old school light shows I have ever seen only used maybe 30 scenes and that was pre moving lights.

I use a bank for each vocalist but in that bank the top right 2 scenes are the guitar player for solos.  It is a pretty cool effect to move the spot to a new focal point as needed.  I also rarely look down.  I set bank number at the beginning of a song and it stays on that bank for the duration with a few exception for special scenes on particular songs.  During the song I play and sing and change scenes at points that accent the song but I dont get caught up on which scene I choose, the change is key not what you change to. 

As far as programming the movers, with DMX control you can set almost everything how you want it.  I choose the color, gobo, etc to match the scene and the colors of the other lights.  Some I choose a static placement and others I use my settings in conjunction with the built in movement macros.  Many scenes I set a pair on one movement macro and the other on a different one and it looks very sophisticated in spite of the fact I didnt create the movement pattern. 

I considered all of the control options you are looking at.  Many are good.  I chose something simpler to setup in large part because we are a three piece band with no production support.  We can drop the ramp on the trailer and be ready to play in an hour and 15 minutes with everything in the video.  The only hesitation I have about my control scheme is that it is not backed up anywhere which with a laptop you could do.

One note regarding programming.  You have to plan.  If you sit down at any controller and try to program without an end in mind you will fail.  I went so far as to create an Excel spreadsheet which spelled out the scenes in each bank, what colors would be in them, whether movers would move, what spots would be on etc.  I even went so far as to put in the value of each DMX channel on each fixture.  It was tedious but I programmed most of my scenes in less than 2 hours because of it and the outcome really hasnt changed much since my initial program. 

Planning your programming also allows you to plan a show that scales.  We use a range of lighting depending on the gig and I use the same controller and same scenes.
8 PARS
8 PARS WITH TWO MOVERS
8 PARS FRONT WITH 8 PARS BACK
8 PARS WITH 4 MOVERS
8 PARS WITH 8 PARS BACK AND 2 MOVERS
8 PARS WITH 8 PARS BACK AND 4 FLOORS MOVERS AND 4 MOVERS UP

Anyway have fun and good luck.  If its not fun its not worth doing.

Allen, looks fantastic !
About the FCB1010 Bank System, as it goes up to a Maximum of 10 Banks.
And say we play 20+ Songs, where each Song would have it's dedicated Bank.
Then, I'd be F**ked... ?

When you say you're using the "Built-In", [Patterns of Movements], from your Movers...
You're still able to Select the Mover's Colors & still let them do their things ?

I'm asking this because, I wouldn't want my Movers to dispay "Drastically Opposite Colors".
You know, the Theoritical Concept of Colors Matching with certain Colors & not so much with others.
[Even though, there are no Rules really]
If you can set them to Match what your PARs are showing, while keeping them Free, then it's great !

Aside to that, you wouldn't change for the Solutions that I've been suggested to use ?
[Software/DMXis/Etc] I'm curious about your opinion on that.
Thank you for your Feedback !

-----------------------------

Paul,
Just to understand that XLR vs DMX thing. [The 120Ω Resistance Difference]
If you use an XLR, you then need a Terminator at the End of your Chain, but :
  • Does that mean a proprer DMX Cable is a "Terminator" in itself ? Or do you still have to look out for a Special Cable with an already "Built-in" Terminator in it.

-----------------------------

Now, regarding the FCB1010 Limitations to 10 Banks, using a Software Based Solution, if it happens that it doesn't go further up, that probably wouldn't be a big deal though.
As I could :
  • Not Buy a FCB1010 in the first place.
  • Buy a Standard MIDI Footswitch, that suits my needs + a couple of "Side" MIDI Expression Pedals.
That would be a Viable Option, correct ?

------------------------------

Hey Callan !
This "Issue" crossed my mind also... Only actual Practice will let me know what's best, so...
Thank you for the Input & the Encouragements, I'll keep that in mind !
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Allen Smith on December 21, 2017, 09:32:09 pm
Hey Allen, do you have any more pics of your truss? Both during set up and how much space in the truck it takes up?
I like your video, the back truss is where I'm thinking of going next.
Cheers

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

I actually dont use truss.  If you look close it is 4 Ultimate Support tripods in back and two in front.  I just raise them to the same height and it sort of looks like a truss.
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Allen Smith on December 21, 2017, 09:35:10 pm
Very nice. Love the Spot Duo's!

Thanks!

The spot duos are a nice throw back to the pin spots in old rock shows.  They also throw a narrow enough beam that they are bright enough to cut through.  I love them and I would like to add four more fixtures. 

I went to a Green Day show and I have this evil plan, now if I only had more money...
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Yoan Geay on December 22, 2017, 09:57:11 am
Thank you Allen, you responded pretty well to all of my Interrogations.

I think you're right, I need to lower, [I mean, Re-Think], my expectations of "how many Scenes do I really need". In the End, the FCB1010 100 Presets, is probably more than enough, limited but enough for what we do.

I think I've gathered enough feedbacks, for me to go in the right direction.
Now it's a matter of taking the big decision, and go buy some stuff. ;D
I have to say this Thread & the Community have been such an Incredible source of Help, Feedbacks, Thoughts & Advices, I can't thank you enough for your participation.

What I'll do is keep this thread as a Favourite somewhere close-by, & when everything is set & done,
I'll come back to let you know how it all ended up doing. I'll try to provide some Pictures & Stuff.

[Might take a while until I come back with some News... I still have to convince the other 4 Members of the Band now :D]

Thank you all again, you've been of Great Help.
Get back to you soon with, [Hopefully], some good stuff to share.
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Jeff Lelko on December 22, 2017, 12:49:44 pm
I think you're right, I need to lower, [I mean, Re-Think], my expectations of "how many Scenes do I really need". In the End, the FCB1010 100 Presets, is probably more than enough, limited but enough for what we do.

I'm glad you've found this conversation useful!  Here's one last thing to consider...

One note regarding programming.  You have to plan.  If you sit down at any controller and try to program without an end in mind you will fail.  I went so far as to create an Excel spreadsheet which spelled out the scenes in each bank, what colors would be in them, whether movers would move, what spots would be on etc.  I even went so far as to put in the value of each DMX channel on each fixture.  It was tedious but I programmed most of my scenes in less than 2 hours because of it and the outcome really hasn't changed much since my initial program. 

I echo this, and here is where you'll see the differences become very apparent when comparing the smaller hardware controllers to the software products and larger hardware consoles.  Having worked on (and currently own) an example of all three, yes, the forethought and planning required when working on a smaller desk is substantial.  Static looks aren't too bad, but when you starting dealing with more complicated sequences that need to account for concepts like Auto-Mark or complex layering, the difficulty increases ten-fold.  Adding to this, what happens when you need to modify a program on the spot?  Even simple things such as nudging the focus position of a moving head to fit a room can prove tricky and time consuming on small hardware consoles if you don't plan for this need ahead of time.  If you honestly think your programs will never change than this may not be a concern to you, but otherwise it can be a frustrating and stressful situation!  Most software and nearly all serious hardware consoles feature more capable programming tools such as palettes, masking, and much more complex layering capabilities.  Updating a few focus/beam/color palettes for your evening's job is a piece of cake that takes all of a few minutes compared to what would be needed to modify the programming of most smaller hardware desks.  Even basic editing is far more reliable and enjoyable on a console display or monitor versus the tiny lines of text display on the smaller boards, at least in my opinion.  This might all be way more involved than you'd like to go (and that's fine!), but just want to throw that out there too if your going to spend some time shopping controllers.  Good luck and hope this helps!   
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Yoan Geay on December 22, 2017, 07:23:48 pm
Absolutely !

I'm definitely going to sit down & "Carefully Plan", on a Global Scale, what
I will be the trying to accomplish with all of this. I know it's going to take time, but I'm a Perfectionnist when it comes to music & I'm sure this will apply with Lights aswell.

If I screw up, eh, Failure is what we learn from !
I'm taking notes on that, & the whole Conversation. Thank you !
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Callan Browne on December 23, 2017, 07:08:32 am
Absolutely !

I'm definitely going to sit down & "Carefully Plan", on a Global Scale, what
I will be the trying to accomplish with all of this. I know it's going to take time, but I'm a Perfectionnist when it comes to music & I'm sure this will apply with Lights aswell.

If I screw up, eh, Failure is what we learn from !
I'm taking notes on that, & the whole Conversation. Thank you !
Hey Yoan, I won't go against any of the good advice here, but thought I'd share a little video of my current setup. Sadly no haze at this gig as we only had the single circuit for everything.
It might give you an idea of what halfway looks like, unless you can get everything at once.

https://youtu.be/qgqMBaIct6k (https://youtu.be/qgqMBaIct6k)
Up front, 2 * hotbox rgba mounted on foh speakers.
Rear is 3 trees of 4leds - 2 of which are Chauvet 4bar lt, the other is 4 Chauvet t12's.

I run DMXIS on 'Autorun bank', so it just cycles through about 8 presets on it's own.
I have 2 banks, one with more movement than the other, then I use bandhelper to set the bank and tempo for each song.

It works for me, I set it up all ahead of gig time. Band helper also changes my guitar patch to match the song.

No blackout at the end of songs, but we like to go straight into the next song anyway so non issue.

I use a MacBook Pro on stage for lights, break music and often multi track recording (like for the video above)

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Rob Gow on December 29, 2017, 11:11:29 am
I'm a DMXIS guy, here's  my journey. I started with a couple Pinspot 360's and 4 Chauvet intimidator 10. scanners to get me out of my home made lights and into the DMX game, along with a typical light I-Beeam DJ Truss setup. I bought an Obey70 and an FCB1010 and set out to make heads and tails of it all.

here's a quick video of my initail progress. Basic keyframe chases. Point A to point B to point C etc.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzQZohGAU0M

Ok, I got some movement going on, however haphazard. This gave me some direction and inspiration for what it could be. Next I needed some wash lights, So I picked up 6 Blizzard 3NX. They were pretty bright but definitely useable. This was November, and I needed evertyhing to work for NYE. The Obey70 was proving to be too frustrating so I looked into a software/hardware solution that would work on a Mac (I used one with my mixer anyway) and wouldn't break the bank.

The free stuff used with a cheap DMX to USB interface looked too complicated. Time was ticking and as a non-light guy I needed something that wojld work and work well. DMXIS was the answer to me. It arrived and I got down to programming. Kept it simple at first, and you can see the results here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8LkFILxWhg

The FCB1010 hooked up to it nicely with a USB - MIDI interface. I went with the Roland UM-One (approx $30) I programmed a bunch of scenes and the FCB1010 worked really well. It has 10 banks with pedals 1-10 which gives you a choice from 100 different scenes. More scenes could be put into a different bank on DMXIS.

Here's some of that programming. I hadn't gotten into the oscillators yet so they were just static scenes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8LkFILxWhg

this was some programming after I did figure out the oscillators

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gCeoiItfhU

I used one volume pedal to control the smoke machine, and the other to control the front on the band. 4 more Blizzard 3NX had arrived in time for NYE which gave me 8 for the back and 4 to light the band. figured out the oscillator but again, the blizzards really washed everything out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr0EzbtifCs

wouldnt you know it, the brand new smoke machine died between Soundcheck and the NYE gig so we did the gig without any smoke. That really cut down the effectiveness of the lighting but we made it through. It was obvious that the Blizzards were washing everything out so it was time to replace the Intimidator scanners with 4 Martin Minimac Profiles, which I bought off a user here. As you can see, they play really nice with the 3NX's but the combination pretty much rendered the Pinspot 360's as useless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDCRGeV1JsQ

So thats where the rig sat for awhile. I sold the Intimidators and the pinspots and contemplated what I could use to replace the pinspots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM8177Db5x0

Still figuring out how to replace the pinspots. Blizzard came out with The Blade, a really tight beam. 2 things though: 1, they were $500 each so 8 of them would be $4000, and 2, the beam was bigger than I was hoping for so I held off and  still kept my eye out. Not long after Chauvet introduced the Intimidator Spot Duo. Perfect, a nice tight smaller beam, and $600 each (at the time) so I picked up 4 of them which gave me 8 tight full moving heads on the top of my truss.

Finally my setup was where i wanted it to be, and it's remained ever since.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBWvJ7_QbO8

Again, I control it all from the FCB1010. You can also control DMXIS with a program called TouchOSC. I've helped a few people get it going. It's not real difficult.

Another quick video, me controlling the lights via the FCB1010 (I'm the fatass)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnbvcdGOG1I






 
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Jerome Malsack on December 29, 2017, 12:08:21 pm
One more thing to look at is the I truss and the weight capacity.  The I truss systems typically accept 100 lbs or 45 kg of load.  This becomes a safety problem if to heavy.  The movement can also cause the stands to move if the movers have momentum.  Add in People can walk into and push things around.  Safety cables from each light might be a help and reduce the insurance liability.   Power cords and data lines made to look good with velcro, gaff tape, or zip ties.  (There is Zip ties with a release for reuse).  Adding DMX wireless can speed the setup and tear down.  Pre-mounted and wired segments can also speed things up.  Weight is the question on pre-mounted and wired.  Spare light bulbs for the ones that break in moving.  Cool off time for the bulbs helps too. 
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Steve Garris on December 29, 2017, 12:52:03 pm
Nice light scenes Rob. I even enjoyed your earlier setup with the little pin spots. Those Blizzard's quickly overcame the pinspots, and the Blizzard's are only (9) 3w tricolor led's. The truss and especially the Spot Duo's really make your show. Very cool that you can run it with a foot-board.

Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Rob Gow on December 29, 2017, 03:10:12 pm
Nice light scenes Rob. I even enjoyed your earlier setup with the little pin spots. Those Blizzard's quickly overcame the pinspots, and the Blizzard's are only (9) 3w tricolor led's. The truss and especially the Spot Duo's really make your show. Very cool that you can run it with a foot-board.

It's pretty handy. Not the fastest setup, but that's ok. The Pinspots and the Intimidators worked well together.

https://youtu.be/MrBCgQ5lzcU

The proper truss, safety cables etc. are all part of doing it properly. I went from the I-Beam to antenna truss to proper 2" aluminum triangle truss.

It does work nicely with the FCB1010. These days I use one volume pedal to control the hazer and the other to control a pair of Fog Fury Jetts.

https://youtu.be/DlRINL3Yz30


But yeah, that's DMXIS programmed by a non light guy.
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Steve Garris on December 31, 2017, 05:27:53 pm
It's pretty handy. Not the fastest setup, but that's ok. The Pinspots and the Intimidators worked well together.

https://youtu.be/MrBCgQ5lzcU

The proper truss, safety cables etc. are all part of doing it properly. I went from the I-Beam to antenna truss to proper 2" aluminum triangle truss.

It does work nicely with the FCB1010. These days I use one volume pedal to control the hazer and the other to control a pair of Fog Fury Jetts.

https://youtu.be/DlRINL3Yz30


But yeah, that's DMXIS programmed by a non light guy.

Oh the Fury Jets! I love those things and was surprised to find out our bass player just bought 2 Fury Jet Pro's, which we will be using tonight for the first time!

Have a great New Years gig everyone.
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Allen Smith on December 31, 2017, 07:55:00 pm
A friend took a few short videos at our gig last night.  You can see a few more of the scenes we use.

https://youtu.be/kDhwm8plp24

https://youtu.be/wnmoQO2c7k8

https://youtu.be/5AypSa8Rnn0

https://youtu.be/CFlXsvWbtUo


Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Rob Gow on January 01, 2018, 11:56:48 am
Thanks!

The spot duos are a nice throw back to the pin spots in old rock shows.  They also throw a narrow enough beam that they are bright enough to cut through.  I love them and I would like to add four more fixtures. 

I went to a Green Day show and I have this evil plan, now if I only had more money...

It's definitely a slippery slope.
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Steve Garris on January 02, 2018, 10:48:37 pm
A friend took a few short videos at our gig last night.  You can see a few more of the scenes we use.

https://youtu.be/kDhwm8plp24

https://youtu.be/wnmoQO2c7k8

https://youtu.be/5AypSa8Rnn0

https://youtu.be/CFlXsvWbtUo


Running lights while playing is very difficult! Those scenes are great, and you're not trying to overdue it. Really nice vocals BTW - give the guys my complements.

We now have a light guy, so I'm not having to do both. That really made my night for NYE. He's new at it, and actually runs it to the music quite well. I just need him to not be so blinky - flashy - strobey. Here's our NYE at midnight (facebook link, may not work):
https://www.facebook.com/josh.mortensen.7/videos/10211039785933904/
Title: Re: [Seeking Advices] - Setting Up our Band's Lightshow
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 07, 2018, 05:00:37 pm
  Doesn't happen. I mean the uncontrolled flashing fixture, this is one of those cases where a small impedance mismatch doesn't have any effect. Wireless DMX.. now that is another story.

Yes, it does.  Don't let the lack of failure lead to think everything is fine.

Perhaps on the scale of a band doing lights at the pub you might not have routine trouble but you just haven't found the troublesome combination of cables & fixtures that sends various lights off into their own little world... give it time, Paul.  You *will* have this happen.