ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Chris Trupe on November 08, 2017, 08:19:13 pm

Title: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Chris Trupe on November 08, 2017, 08:19:13 pm
Digico SD10 Core 2 V929 at FOH
Digico SD Rack on Stage
HMA Optics
Digigrid MGB Madi to Ethernet Box at FOH in Doghouse of SD10
New ADK 8910 Laptop 32GB RAM
Avastor HDX Drive
All clocked off of optocore

All drivers for Soundgrid and MGB are up to date.  Windows 10 all up to date.
Recording 40 tracks at 96kHz/24bit.
Recording appears to record just fine, though when zooming in, or playing back via copy audio for virtual soundcheck, it is very noticeable that the tracks are not all lined up, up to 800ms off.
Can zoom in and manually go in and line up all tracks, what fun that is!!
Any ideas why my tracks are not lining up?  All recorded via copy audio from SD Rack to the MGB Box to the Laptop.
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Riley Casey on November 09, 2017, 05:00:03 pm
Not something I've seen on Nuendo Live with Yamaha boards via Dante so probably in the getting to the laptop part of the universe but you probably already suspect that.  Any pattern to which tracks are offset ?  Any track count below which it stops happening?
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Predrag Blagojevic on November 10, 2017, 08:51:04 am
Not something I've seen on Nuendo Live with Yamaha boards via Dante so probably in the getting to the laptop part of the universe but you probably already suspect that.  Any pattern to which tracks are offset ?  Any track count below which it stops happening?
It happens with Yamaha boards via Dante too. I haven't  figured pattern, but what happens is that some tracks are not being recorded at the same time with other tracks. It means that recording of  the tracks in question starts later than other tracks(i.e. one second or maybe less later). When the recording is stoped software, for some reason aligns the tracks to the begining of the time line, but if I look at the end of the session, I can see that the duration of of some tracks differs from others.  The solution is simple, you just align the  tracks so that they end at same time...

Sent from my Redmi Note 4X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Predrag Blagojevic on November 10, 2017, 08:51:14 am
Not something I've seen on Nuendo Live with Yamaha boards via Dante so probably in the getting to the laptop part of the universe but you probably already suspect that.  Any pattern to which tracks are offset ?  Any track count below which it stops happening?
It happens with Yamaha boards via Dante too. I haven't  figured pattern, but what happens is that some tracks are not being recorded at the same time with other tracks. It means that recording of  the tracks in question starts later than other tracks(i.e. one second or maybe less later). When the recording is stoped software, for some reason aligns the tracks to the begining of the time line, but if I look at the end of the session, I can see that the duration of of some tracks differs from others.  The solution is simple, you just align the  tracks so that they end at same time...

Sent from my Redmi Note 4X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on November 10, 2017, 10:49:35 am
I'm assuming you are using DVS, rather than one of the Dante PCIe cards? This is just one more story of DVS oddity.

Is there any chance that the tracks in question have some sort of delay, analog emulation or other processing happening at the head amp level of your I/O racks?
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Andrew Broughton on November 10, 2017, 11:46:34 am
I've found Nuendo Live to be unusable, so it wouldn't surprise me if it's the cause of the problem.
Try recording with Reaper and see if you still see the problem.
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Riley Casey on November 10, 2017, 07:16:57 pm
Curious if this has any common threads.  Iíve been using Nuendo Live for five years across three Yamaha consoles, two RIOs and three Mac laptops all using DVS to connect.  Usually under 32 tracks but occasionally in the 40s. 48 was the highest track count ever used.  Worst issue was a copy of DVS that conflicted with something that was installed subsequently and on that machine I had to run under a different user to get DVS to not crash on launch. Could this be a track count issue, a Mac v Windows problem? Has anyone had this issue on a Mac?
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on November 11, 2017, 02:02:23 am
I can't say that I have had this issue pop up. And I've used DVS on CL5s, PM5Ds, LS9s with Protools, QLab and Nuendo live and Reaper and probably a couple of other pieces of software on both Windows and Mac.

But I have had other issues that I haven't been able to solve and seem to be erratic. This is just one more in a list of odd issues with DVS. I'm really starting to loose faith in it and think that Audinate needs to issue a major, major update or a rewrite somewhere along the line.
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Predrag Blagojevic on November 11, 2017, 08:45:17 am
I'm assuming you are using DVS, rather than one of the Dante PCIe cards? This is just one more story of DVS oddity.

Is there any chance that the tracks in question have some sort of delay, analog emulation or other processing happening at the head amp level of your I/O racks?
Yes, I am using DVS. I haven't used any of the processors  from premium rack as inserts...

Sent from my Redmi Note 4X using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Cailen Waddell on November 11, 2017, 09:51:13 am
The only time i have had offset problems with DVS recordings it was a super low spec laptop machine with a 5400rpm hard drive and limited ram.  Never had the problem with a high spec machine with an SSD...

Now correlation doesnít equal causation so who knows....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Chris Trupe on November 11, 2017, 02:48:10 pm
So, some more info. 

The files start at the same place.
Audio does not.
The ends of my files are all different.
If I line up the ends of all my files, the audio all lines up.

I have yet to have a chance to try another program to record into.
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Chris Trupe on November 11, 2017, 02:49:10 pm
Not something I've seen on Nuendo Live with Yamaha boards via Dante so probably in the getting to the laptop part of the universe but you probably already suspect that.  Any pattern to which tracks are offset ?  Any track count below which it stops happening?

Groups of 4 or 5 for the most part.
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Chris Trupe on November 11, 2017, 02:50:16 pm
It happens with Yamaha boards via Dante too. I haven't  figured pattern, but what happens is that some tracks are not being recorded at the same time with other tracks. It means that recording of  the tracks in question starts later than other tracks(i.e. one second or maybe less later). When the recording is stoped software, for some reason aligns the tracks to the begining of the time line, but if I look at the end of the session, I can see that the duration of of some tracks differs from others.  The solution is simple, you just align the  tracks so that they end at same time...

Sent from my Redmi Note 4X using Tapatalk

Yes, this does work, really sucks that the live version does not have the snap feature, or at least not that I have found.
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: boburtz on November 11, 2017, 07:26:55 pm
Yes, this does work, really sucks that the live version does not have the snap feature, or at least not that I have found.
Nuendo live has a feature  whereby it is always recording to ram for the "pre-record" function. The way this is staggered it looks like a ram issue to me. Like it is printing the recording in a sequential manner, as though it is filling the ram buffer prior to printing each set of tracks. Have you tried playing with the pre-record settings?
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Chris Trupe on November 11, 2017, 07:35:16 pm
Nuendo live has a feature  whereby it is always recording to ram for the "pre-record" function. The way this is staggered it looks like a ram issue to me. Like it is printing the recording in a sequential manner, as though it is filling the ram buffer prior to printing each set of tracks. Have you tried playing with the pre-record settings?

I have had the same result with the pre record set at 10s and also at 0s.
10s is the stock Nuendo setting.
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on November 11, 2017, 09:54:17 pm
Refresh my memory. Does Nuendo Live allow you to use ASIO audio interfaces? And if so, can you try recording through a separate interface, taking DVS out of the picture to see if this is a Nuendo issue or a DVS issue?
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Chris Trupe on November 11, 2017, 10:00:25 pm
Refresh my memory. Does Nuendo Live allow you to use ASIO audio interfaces? And if so, can you try recording through a separate interface, taking DVS out of the picture to see if this is a Nuendo issue or a DVS issue?

I am not using Dante.  Digigrid MGB and Soundgrid.
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: John Ferreira on November 14, 2017, 02:26:46 am
I am not using Dante.  Digigrid MGB and Soundgrid.

Chris do you still have the same problem if you increase the buffer size to 256 or 512?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Chris Trupe on November 14, 2017, 09:15:19 pm
Chris do you still have the same problem if you increase the buffer size to 256 or 512?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Even maxed out the buffer and still the same issue.
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Mark Rombouts on November 15, 2017, 09:37:18 am
Even maxed out the buffer and still the same issue.

I never had an issue like this with Digico or Yamaha combined with UB madi, or DVS or Soundgrid. I always use Protools or Waves Tracks Live.

I would suspect Nuendo.
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Tim McCulloch on November 15, 2017, 11:58:28 am
I never had an issue like this with Digico or Yamaha combined with UB madi, or DVS or Soundgrid. I always use Protools or Waves Tracks Live.

I would suspect Nuendo.

And this brings me to my most common question - what does the manufacturer (publisher) say?
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on November 15, 2017, 01:48:15 pm
2 options:

1. Try a different DAW
2. Try a different PC

The third option would be significantly more expensive so let's just stick to those two.

Some questions though, are you recording to an SSD or an internal hard drive?

Pro Tools recommends no more than 32 tracks to a HDD so if your not recording to an SSD that would be another place to start looking for an issue, if this is a 5400RPM laptop hard drive I think 32 tracks would be pushing it as well, usually Pro Tools would simple throw a DAE error should the HDD be falling behind, not sure how Nuendo would deal with that situation.
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Chris Trupe on November 15, 2017, 08:44:54 pm
And this brings me to my most common question - what does the manufacturer (publisher) say?

Ahh yes, trying to get ahold of someone at Yamaha to get support on Nuendo, hasnt been the easiest....
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Chris Trupe on November 15, 2017, 08:47:53 pm
2 options:

1. Try a different DAW
2. Try a different PC

The third option would be significantly more expensive so let's just stick to those two.

Some questions though, are you recording to an SSD or an internal hard drive?

Pro Tools recommends no more than 32 tracks to a HDD so if your not recording to an SSD that would be another place to start looking for an issue, if this is a 5400RPM laptop hard drive I think 32 tracks would be pushing it as well, usually Pro Tools would simple throw a DAE error should the HDD be falling behind, not sure how Nuendo would deal with that situation.

Those are my next troubleshooting steps.  Reaper and Tracks Live are up next.
Recording to an Avastor external HHD Drive 7200RPM.

I don't think the drive is suspect as I have seen this drive do over 100 tracks at 96/24 before.
Though moving to an SSD can't hurt.
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on November 15, 2017, 09:40:58 pm
Chris, are the recorded tracks all the exact same length when you are done recording? Or are you missing audio on some, like they don't start or stop at the same time?

Do the tracks in your screen pic all start at the same time? or do the ones at the top, that appear to end later, also start later?

If they are all the exact same length, this would be an easy fix in Protools: highlight all the tracks, and Spot them to the same point in the timeline, like 0:00.00

Not sure what is going on here. But it seems like a software buffer issue to me. Whether that's something that you can address in Nuendo Live or not is another issue. I would get on the horn to the people at Yamaha/Steinberg and ask them WTF is up.
Title: Re: Nuendo Live Rec Tracks Not Lined Up
Post by: Chris Trupe on November 17, 2017, 10:09:17 am
Chris, are the recorded tracks all the exact same length when you are done recording? Or are you missing audio on some, like they don't start or stop at the same time?

Do the tracks in your screen pic all start at the same time? or do the ones at the top, that appear to end later, also start later?

If they are all the exact same length, this would be an easy fix in Protools: highlight all the tracks, and Spot them to the same point in the timeline, like 0:00.00

Not sure what is going on here. But it seems like a software buffer issue to me. Whether that's something that you can address in Nuendo Live or not is another issue. I would get on the horn to the people at Yamaha/Steinberg and ask them WTF is up.


All files start at the same point.
Some audio is delayed writing.
If audio starts later withing the file, that file is longer.
No audio is missing.
Line up all the ends of the files, and all audio lines up.
Supposed to be getting a call back from Yamaha today.