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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Tracy Stewart on October 03, 2017, 02:55:44 pm

Title: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Tracy Stewart on October 03, 2017, 02:55:44 pm
Ok i am at a crossroads with my jbl srx 725 speakers. I currently am running two of them on a bridged nu4-6000 inuke amp. Should i either buy the crown xti-6000 or just replace all with the new JBL srx-835p?  I want to have a total of 4 speakers for coverage.  Or stay with the inuke and be happy. I love the 4 inch diaphragm on the 725. It just sounds awesome and i am not sure if the newer JBL will sound the same. Just wanted to hear input from those of you that have used this equipment. Thanks!
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Jain John on October 03, 2017, 04:09:51 pm
I own couple of srx 835p's and srx 828sp's and couldn't be happier. Never owned 725. One of my friend switched from srx 725 to srx 835p and he is happy with the decision. But i think you need a sub because the 835p's has a single 15" woofer. I hope the other forum members can help you better than me as they are more experienced and knowledgeable.

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Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Art Welter on October 03, 2017, 04:13:01 pm
Ok i am at a crossroads with my jbl srx 725 speakers. I currently am running two of them on a bridged nu4-6000 inuke amp. Should i either buy the crown xti-6000 or just replace all with the new JBL srx-835p?  I want to have a total of 4 speakers for coverage.  Or stay with the inuke and be happy. I love the 4 inch diaphragm on the 725. It just sounds awesome and i am not sure if the newer JBL will sound the same. Just wanted to hear input from those of you that have used this equipment. Thanks!
Tracy,

From a headroom standpoint, the bridged NU4 gives you 3000 watts at 4 ohms, the xti-6000 2100 watts, and the SRX-835p only 2000 watts "peak".

The SRX-835p DSP may make them arguably "sound better" than the SRX- 725, but properly equalized, not much of a difference.
Art
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Rob Spence on October 03, 2017, 04:29:25 pm
Ok i am at a crossroads with my jbl srx 725 speakers. I currently am running two of them on a bridged nu4-6000 inuke amp. Should i either buy the crown xti-6000 or just replace all with the new JBL srx-835p?  I want to have a total of 4 speakers for coverage.  Or stay with the inuke and be happy. I love the 4 inch diaphragm on the 725. It just sounds awesome and i am not sure if the newer JBL will sound the same. Just wanted to hear input from those of you that have used this equipment. Thanks!

Is it a 4 voice coil or diaphragm?

The real questions for you are
1) do I want new self powered speakers?
2) do I like my current speakers but would like more of them?
3) will the new ones deploy the same as current? (Are they taller or heavier. )

Another pair of same from the used market and another amp are likely the less expensive option.


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Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Don T. Williams on October 03, 2017, 04:32:36 pm
Not to insult the Crown XTI, but the SRX 835P will be a huge improvement in audio quality over your existing system.  It is a true 3-way system with a lot of quality DSP providing a very smooth and extended sound.  It may not play louder that your current setup, but it will probably sound much better when it is played loudly.  A new amplifier will not make much of a difference is either the quality or loudness of your existing system.

The SRX835P still has a large format horn and driver.  It is a 1.5" throat horn with a 3" diaphragm.  Due to a newer design and the DSP and crossover filters used, it will have more even dispersion, and smoother and more extended highs.  15" speakers have never been good as midrange drivers.  The horn loaded 8" in the 835 is in a whole different class.   
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on October 03, 2017, 04:50:39 pm
Not to insult the Crown XTI, but the SRX 835P will be a huge improvement in audio quality over your existing system.  It is a true 3-way system with a lot of quality DSP providing a very smooth and extended sound.  It may not play louder that your current setup, but it will probably sound much better when it is played loudly.  A new amplifier will not make much of a difference is either the quality or loudness of your existing system.

The SRX835P still has a large format horn and driver.  It is a 1.5" throat horn with a 3" diaphragm.  Due to a newer design and the DSP and crossover filters used, it will have more even dispersion, and smoother and more extended highs.  15" speakers have never been good as midrange drivers.  The horn loaded 8" in the 835 is in a whole different class.
+1.  The SRX725 is a rock n roll box not particularly known for finesse.  I'm not sure if the SRX835p will be louder than the SRX725 or not, but it sounds significantly better.

As Rob pointed out, whether that's the right business move for you is an entirely different matter.
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Bob Leonard on October 03, 2017, 06:25:56 pm
I've used 725s for many years, probably longer than most on this forum. I also did a critical listening test, side by side, with most of the new 800 series when they came out. My intent at the time was to possibly upgrade to the 835. I never did upgrade and my 725s keep on chugging along just fine.

I'll agree that the 835 has a "smoother" sound than the 725, no doubt about it, however, the 835 does NOT sound significantly better. Perhaps this has a bit to do with my system and the fact that I run a dbx 4800 between my cabinets and the board, or maybe not, but regardless the 835 would be a step up, but only a minor step up. Before I dumped the 725s you might consider a higher quality amp and a look at your xover.

I also didn't see any mention of subs. Pick up a pair of 718s, the right xover set properly, the right amp, and you'll be amazed.
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Jonathan Betts on October 03, 2017, 06:53:27 pm
I prefer my Itech powered SRX boxes over any of the powered SRX stuff. IMO it's hard to beat the 712/718 combo. Powerful, compact, one amp and one 20 amp circuit.
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Tracy Stewart on October 03, 2017, 08:04:28 pm
I own couple of srx 835p's and srx 828sp's and couldn't be happier. Never owned 725. One of my friend switched from srx 725 to srx 835p and he is happy with the decision. But i think you need a sub because the 835p's has a single 15" woofer. I hope the other forum members can help you better than me as they are more experienced and knowledgeable.

Sent from my LG-D802 using Tapatalk

I have 2 srx 828 subs so low end is not an issue. Thanks for the reply
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Dave Guilford on October 03, 2017, 09:11:09 pm
I like my 725 more than anything else I've heard.  I also like that they are 70* output.  I think 835 are 90* for crummy splaying.  Also the 835 don't sit as high up, and there's something about a 2x15 that moves air.  :-D
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Tracy Stewart on October 03, 2017, 09:39:39 pm
I like my 725 more than anything else I've heard.  I also like that they are 70* output.  I think 835 are 90* for crummy splaying.  Also the 835 don't sit as high up, and there's something about a 2x15 that moves air.  :-D

I agree the 725s sound awesome.  The 835s are actually 60 degree which is pretty cool.  I am still undecided but listening.  Thanks for all of the replies.
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Jamin Lynch on October 03, 2017, 09:44:57 pm
I'm guessing you mean the Crown xti6002 rather than the xti6000?
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Don T. Williams on October 03, 2017, 10:31:22 pm
I like my 725 more than anything else I've heard. . . . and there's something about a 2x15 that moves air.  :-D

I think I agree that the double 15's of the SRX725 can move more air, and I have heard some very carefully crossed over and equalized 725's sound very acceptable.  But acoustic instruments and vocals just never sound as smooth and natural as they do with the SRX 835P's to me.  This is especially true with female vocals.  For Metal and Rock with male vocals, I might give a really well tuned SRX725 system the edge, especially in level.  For Jazz, Pop, most Christian, theater, Bluegrass, and Country (especially with female vocals), the SRX 835P is much better IMHO.
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Jain John on October 03, 2017, 10:49:36 pm
One thing I noticed from forums and discussions, people who migrated from passive speakers and amp's to powered speakers like the 835p's, most of them are happy because it's sound better, no amp rack to carry, better speaker protection, in built efficient and matched amp module, better control(custom eq, fir filters)e.t.c. But properly powered/matched amp and passive speakers can get bit more louder.
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Tracy Stewart on October 04, 2017, 07:18:26 am
I'm guessing you mean the Crown xti6002 rather than the xti6000?

Yes. 6002 or two 4002 bridged.
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: scottstephens on October 04, 2017, 09:13:27 am
Tracy,

Think about this from an  R O I perspective. To me it's a kind of lateral move. Yeah, I suppose the new speakers are going to sound a little better, but enough to make the investment? In the past I have used the SRX system biamped and it sounded great. But, there's an amp rack. The SRX-P's are a little heavier than the unpowered ones...trade off! Less to transport...worth the investment?!  What do your clients require? Do they care? Can you pay for new stuff quickly? No heaven speaker cables...bonus. XLR's that get abused by bands, foot traffic and vehicle traffic break quickly.  What else can make you more money? 

Good Luck.

scott
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Jamin Lynch on October 04, 2017, 10:07:32 am
Yes. 6002 or two 4002 bridged.

It has been my experience that 1 xti6002 is more than adequate to power a pair of 725's

And it doesn't present all the issues of bridging multiple amps
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Steve Ferreira on October 04, 2017, 11:10:35 am
I was debating making a similar move last year. I was thinking of going from SRX 725 & 728s with Itech 8000s to the 835 & 828 combo. After asking questions here and doing some research I'm still lugging my amp rack around. To me it was a side step for the events I do. My clients don't care if I use amps or not.
I find myself asking the same question again, this time it's because my amps are getting long in the tooth and they have reached EOL with Crown. This time I'm looking at amps and not self powered speakers.
Keep in mind that it's not only buying the 835s but all the necessary cabling, possibly power distribution that comes along with it.

PS..... It's hard to beat a properly powered and tuned SRX 700 rig.
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Bill Hornibrook on October 04, 2017, 11:42:25 am
For Metal and Rock with male vocals, I might give a really well tuned SRX725 system the edge, especially in level.  For Jazz, Pop, most Christian, theater, Bluegrass, and Country (especially with female vocals), the SRX 835P is much better IMHO.

I pretty much agree with this post. It depends on what you are doing. I would also add DJ events to the "keep the SRX725s" column - especially if you are doing anything outdoors that require everything you've got.

I would also ask a few questions about the reliability of the amp modules before you make the plunge. I'm going to defer to SRX8xx-P owners on that one, but for now I'm still holding onto my passive SRX.
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Rob Spence on October 04, 2017, 01:49:32 pm
A big thing to consider is can you make more money by changing your speakers. If not, why do it?


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Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Will Knight on October 04, 2017, 03:22:55 pm
I went through the same head banging process a bit more than a year ago in determining whether to replace my QSC PL3-powered S700 rig and move up to the S800P boxes.  Even today, what I use my gear for and how often it's out doesn't justify a change, both financially and physically (as a one-man operator) given I also own P600 & P800 rigs which both go out more often than the S700. 

As others have said, will your clients pay you more to cover the new investment?  While you may notice a slight improvement in sound, the customers certainly won't.  You'd have to take a major leap to a cost as a multiple of the S800 level in order for clients to begin to notice.  And at that stage (pun intended), you should be targeting a completely different clientele.

Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Chuck Simon on October 04, 2017, 08:06:29 pm
I went from the SRX 722s which have the same HF drivers as your 725s.  Properly powered, they can definitely get louder than my 835s.  BUT, the 835s have a smoother, more "high fidelity" type sound and with the 60 degree horns they really work well with two per side.  I believe your 725s have 90 degree horns and are not going to sound as good with two per side, if that's what you are planning to do.  And, the processing and convenience of powered speakers does make life easier.  I made the switch because my four 722's were stolen.  If that had not happened I would probably have just stayed with them.
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Ray Aberle on October 04, 2017, 09:52:43 pm
The SRX725s are 75 by 50.

Agreed with everyone vis-a-vis the ROI of making this change. HOWEVER... are you a business, or a hobbyist? If the former, then "is it worth the upgrade, i.e. can I make this money back?" is the question. If the latter, then... well, "what sounds better?"

If you want something scaleable (with the least expense) then another pair of used 725s along with an amp is the best route. Then you have boxes that will work well with each other for a larger system, or split easily for two smaller rigs. Using the splay angles on the boxes work great for the larger setup.

-Ray
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Tracy Stewart on October 07, 2017, 09:41:12 am
I think I have made a decision.  After reading many many reviews and all of your input, I am going to pull the trigger on a set of srx-835p speakers.  I really appreciate all of the input you have given me.  I will probably keep the 725s as well powered with the inuke 6000 as it is now.  These will work for side fills for larger festivals.  I am not getting any younger and my back will thank me for less stuff to carry.  It will also lessen my teardown and setup time.  Eventually i may get a second set or a set of srx812 for side fills.  Thanks guys. 
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Jain John on October 09, 2017, 08:28:37 am
I hope you will enjoy your new set of speakers and please let us know your experience with your new Srx 835p's. Good luck!
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Brian Jojade on October 09, 2017, 07:03:47 pm
How long do you plan to keep the speakers?  10 years from now, you'll probably be able to buy a new amp to power the 725's.  If the module inside of the 835 goes, and JBL decides to stop making them, then what do you do?

Same argument for if a unit fails on you.  Do you have a spare amp module that you can stick in the 835?  If not, you're down until it gets fixed. With the 725, if your amp goes down, you can use any other appropriately sized amp until you get yours back and running.

The downside of non powered speakers is that you need to have an amp rack that takes up space. 
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on October 09, 2017, 10:17:46 pm
How long do you plan to keep the speakers?  10 years from now, you'll probably be able to buy a new amp to power the 725's.  If the module inside of the 835 goes, and JBL decides to stop making them, then what do you do?

Same argument for if a unit fails on you.  Do you have a spare amp module that you can stick in the 835?  If not, you're down until it gets fixed. With the 725, if your amp goes down, you can use any other appropriately sized amp until you get yours back and running.

The downside of non powered speakers is that you need to have an amp rack that takes up space.
You could have a metal or wood shop fab up some panels to fill the amp hole and give you a couple NL4 connections; then roll your own presets.  Better yet, grab transfer functions of the amps now so you can nail the presets in the future.


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Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Brian Jojade on October 10, 2017, 11:26:25 am
You could have a metal or wood shop fab up some panels to fill the amp hole and give you a couple NL4 connections; then roll your own presets.  Better yet, grab transfer functions of the amps now so you can nail the presets in the future.


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Yep, you certainly could do that. But realize that now you have a passive box with NO internal crossover network so you'll need amp channels for each driver set.  The point being though, that by putting the electronics inside the box, you've effectively decreased it's viable life without modifications.

If you're rotating gear on a regular basis, it's not that big of an issue. But for those that want to buy once and forget about it forever, it's something to take into consideration.
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on October 10, 2017, 11:41:26 am
Yep, you certainly could do that. But realize that now you have a passive box with NO internal crossover network so you'll need amp channels for each driver set.  The point being though, that by putting the electronics inside the box, you've effectively decreased it's viable life without modifications.

If you're rotating gear on a regular basis, it's not that big of an issue. But for those that want to buy once and forget about it forever, it's something to take into consideration.
The active/passive dilemma is well-covered on the forum.  What you post is correct - if you have an internal amp module die, the speaker goes down.  On the flip side with a passive setup, for redundancy every show you need to carry an extra (external) amp and an extra speaker, and depending on how your rig is setup, an external amp failure could take down a larger part of your rig. 

I would also argue that a well-designed self-powered speaker may have a longer life than a passive speaker in that self-powered speakers are harder to kill by misuse.
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 10, 2017, 12:06:33 pm


I would also argue that a well-designed self-powered speaker may have a longer life than a passive speaker in that self-powered speakers are harder to kill by misuse.
I would "argue" that even today, with electronics more reliable than ever, amps fail more often than loudspeakers.

Yes of course there are exceptions.  That is my "feeling", but I have no data to back it up.  And of course any "data" would be subject to how/where it was collected.

Are we talking about pro quality gear (speakers and amps) or MI level gear?

There are LOTS of variables on either side.  So take my opinion with a grain of salt-and a shot---------------
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on October 10, 2017, 12:54:27 pm
There was a discussion on failure rates related to lifespan in the lab.

Most failures occur in infancy and then at EOL. You are assuming that a 10 year old box hasn't become obsolete, on that note if you expect to own a box for 10+ years maybe you need to look at what manufacturer you choose a lot more closely.

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Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Don T. Williams on October 10, 2017, 04:26:27 pm
It's been many years and amplifiers have better protection for themselves and their loads now, but we where working a club show where the lighting crew, without our or the clubs permission or knowledge, illegally tapped in to the disconnect switch reserved for our sound system.  Yep, it blew up and every amp died a horrible death.  They all when DC in the process and all 30 drivers in the quad amped system died with them.  $800 show, $3,500 worth of damage!  I won a judgement against the light company but could never collect, and of course I was never hired by that club again!  They didn't care whose fault it was.
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on October 10, 2017, 04:42:50 pm
Quote from: TJ
I would also argue that a well-designed self-powered speaker may have a longer life than a passive speaker in that self-powered speakers are harder to kill by misuse.
I would "argue" that even today, with electronics more reliable than ever, amps fail more often than loudspeakers.
That's not my point.  My point is that self-powered speakers are better protected from "less sophisticated users" who for whatever reason may not be good at determining when enough was enough, and instead keep turning it up when their ears, followed by their nose, and in rare cases their eyes give them clues that they should have stopped.
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 10, 2017, 10:49:21 pm
It's been many years and amplifiers have better protection for themselves and their loads now, but we where working a club show where the lighting crew, without our or the clubs permission or knowledge, illegally tapped in to the disconnect switch reserved for our sound system.  Yep, it blew up and every amp died a horrible death.  They all when DC in the process and all 30 drivers in the quad amped system died with them.  $800 show, $3,500 worth of damage!  I won a judgement against the light company but could never collect, and of course I was never hired by that club again!  They didn't care whose fault it was.

How could lighting, tapping a circuit, cause your amps to send DC concurrently to every driver?   The HF drivers didn't even have a DC blocking CAP in line?

Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Don T. Williams on October 11, 2017, 11:18:18 am
How could lighting, tapping a circuit, cause your amps to send DC concurrently to every driver?   The HF drivers didn't even have a DC blocking CAP in line?

Actually, they did have blocking caps, but the amps made a very loud oscillation and/or noise as they died.  Back on the bench after the event they all had lots of shorted output transistors.  I think the light crew burned up or removed the neutral from the circuit, but I'm not exactly certain.  I knew a lot less about it in the eighties when this happened.  The disconnect had a lot of burn marks and the screwdriver used by the lighting crew had large amounts of metal missing.  We had been given a 50A "range" outlet that metered correctly to power our distro and rig.
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on October 11, 2017, 07:17:33 pm
There was a discussion on failure rates related to lifespan in the lab.

Most failures occur in infancy and then at EOL. You are assuming that a 10 year old box hasn't become obsolete, on that note if you expect to own a box for 10+ years maybe you need to look at what manufacturer you choose a lot more closely.

Sent from my 2014817 using Tapatalk

Just this weekend I had a show with my Yorkville EF500p tops and Ls801pb subs. Sunday I was cleaning the storage room and found the paperwork on the tops. They were 10 years old this past January.  Thinking of the countless gigs I've had with those tops and knowing that another set of them I had that were older and sold are still going strong I feel pretty good about their purchase. 
I hope the new version EF15p, I believe they are called, last this long as well.

Douglas R. Allen
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: joseph baio on October 12, 2017, 04:46:09 pm
Ok i am at a crossroads with my jbl srx 725 speakers. I currently am running two of them on a bridged nu4-6000 inuke amp. Should i either buy the crown xti-6000 or just replace all with the new JBL srx-835p?  I want to have a total of 4 speakers for coverage.  Or stay with the inuke and be happy. I love the 4 inch diaphragm on the 725. It just sounds awesome and i am not sure if the newer JBL will sound the same. Just wanted to hear input from those of you that have used this equipment. Thanks!
Go with crown itech 6000 or 9000 or qsc pld 4.5. you need 1600 watts @8 ohms to any of the srx700 cabinets pound and sound good with proper dsp settings.       joey
Title: Re: Srx 725 dilemma
Post by: Brian Jojade on October 13, 2017, 12:15:42 am
I would "argue" that even today, with electronics more reliable than ever, amps fail more often than loudspeakers.
That's not my point.  My point is that self-powered speakers are better protected from "less sophisticated users" who for whatever reason may not be good at determining when enough was enough, and instead keep turning it up when their ears, followed by their nose, and in rare cases their eyes give them clues that they should have stopped.

On the flip side of that argument, with the moderately sophisticated users that think you can do whatever you want with powered speakers and drive them into oblivion and they will be fine...

It's just my experience that I've seen more powered speakers go down than passive speakers, and dealing with repairs is a huge hassle in comparison.  The only time I've seen passive speakers go bad is by abuse.  Powered cabinets just go on strike sometimes.