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Title: Audio System for new dance studio
Post by: Markos Theodorou on September 21, 2017, 05:18:03 am
Good morning to everyone.

I am currently building a new dance school, which will have three separate dance rooms. The larger room will be 10 X 12 meters, and the two smaller ones will be 6 X 9 meters each. The two smaller ones will be able to operate as one room, since they will be divided by foldable acoustic panels. The room walls are all straight surfaces, and one wall in each room will have mirrors. The ceiling is false gypsum tiles.

What kind of audio system setup do you recommend? I have gotten several quotations from audio professionals, but all with different recommendations. One audio professional told me that for the large room 120m, placing 4 Speakers in the corners of the room would create noise, as there would be delay from one side to the other.

I am really out of my depth here, and I would appreciate any recommendations you may have.

Many thanks.
Title: Re: Audio System for new dance studio
Post by: Keith Broughton on September 21, 2017, 06:00:06 am
You will get some responses after you post under your full name as required by forum rules.
Title: Re: Audio System for new dance studio
Post by: Markos Theodorou on September 21, 2017, 07:23:14 am
You will get some responses after you post under your full name as required by forum rules.

Thanks for the tip Keith :-)
Title: Re: Audio System for new dance studio
Post by: Nathan Riddle on September 21, 2017, 08:09:06 am
Good morning to everyone.

I am currently building a new dance school, which will have three separate dance rooms. The larger room will be 10 X 12 meters, and the two smaller ones will be 6 X 9 meters each. The two smaller ones will be able to operate as one room, since they will be divided by foldable acoustic panels. The room walls are all straight surfaces, and one wall in each room will have mirrors. The ceiling is false gypsum tiles.

What kind of audio system setup do you recommend? I have gotten several quotations from audio professionals, but all with different recommendations. One audio professional told me that for the large room 120m, placing 4 Speakers in the corners of the room would create noise, as there would be delay from one side to the other.

I am really out of my depth here, and I would appreciate any recommendations you may have.

Many thanks.

Budget?
Do you have viewing/seating areas or is the entire space for performers only?
Expectations (Broadway or local shop)?
Subs?

Those are fairly small areas, nearly any decent pair of speakers per area will be adequate for your expectations.

Martin CDD series is excellent, though probably about mid/top-tier for their price point (~$1.3kea). But their design gives for less speakers typically thus saving money.
Title: Re: Audio System for new dance studio
Post by: Markos Theodorou on September 21, 2017, 08:21:05 am
Budget?
Do you have viewing/seating areas or is the entire space for performers only?
Expectations (Broadway or local shop)?
Subs?

Those are fairly small areas, nearly any decent pair of speakers per area will be adequate for your expectations.

Martin CDD series is excellent, though probably about mid/top-tier for their price point (~$1.3kea). But their design gives for less speakers typically thus saving money.

Hi Nathan,

Thanks for replying.

The dance school is in Cyprus, Europe. The budget is around 3000 - 3500 euros.

No seating area, whole spaces are for dance lessons. I agree that for the two smaller rooms, a decent pair of speakers for each should be ok. Any ideas on the size of the speakers?

For the large room, one professional recommended either going with a pair of large speakers on one side, or four smaller ones and two subwoofers. The two large ones are the best option apparently, but they are quite heavy, and they need to be wall mounted (about 20 kgs).

Business is quite good, plenty of students signed up already, which is why i want to make sure i invest correctly in the right setup.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Audio System for new dance studio
Post by: Nathan Riddle on September 21, 2017, 09:13:33 am
Hi Nathan,

Thanks for replying.

The dance school is in Cyprus, Europe. The budget is around 3000 - 3500 euros.

No seating area, whole spaces are for dance lessons. I agree that for the two smaller rooms, a decent pair of speakers for each should be ok. Any ideas on the size of the speakers?

For the large room, one professional recommended either going with a pair of large speakers on one side, or four smaller ones and two subwoofers. The two large ones are the best option apparently, but they are quite heavy, and they need to be wall mounted (about 20 kgs).

Business is quite good, plenty of students signed up already, which is why i want to make sure i invest correctly in the right setup.

Thanks again.

Is that budget including installation?

What did the other companies suggest?

We could scrutinize it for you. Perhaps that is easier than us giving you another 6 different systems and guessing at what fits your needs.

For the larger room: My opinion is a better single pair of speakers and one sub. yes, there is the whole divide by two ratio for speaker deployment; but I've found that is a little excessive and adds lots of reflections/cancellations/phase issues.

For the smaller rooms I would consider even a small sub to supplement. When I think 'dance' I think some punchy bass centered around 60hz to go along with the music.
Title: Re: Audio System for new dance studio
Post by: David Allred on September 21, 2017, 09:15:38 am
Since you are building, make pocket shelves / platforms for the speakers as part of the structure (if building style allows).  A mirrored wall and Wood floors will likely create a reverberant space, making instruction difficult to understand.  Consider putting sound absorption panels on the 2 fixed non-mirrored walls.  15 - 20% spaced coverage per wall would be in the ballpark.  Pretty easy to make and mount with a little research (and youtube).  Relatively inexpensive to make.  Not so much to buy. 
Title: Re: Audio System for new dance studio
Post by: Nathan Riddle on September 21, 2017, 09:44:15 am
Pretty easy to make and mount with a little research (and youtube).  Relatively inexpensive to make.  Not so much to buy.

I agree with the acoustics.

I'm not sure I agree with the 'making' of acoustic panels.

The best value isn't always the lowest price tag.

Do the panels actually work, what freq do they work, do they look good, are they fire retardant, will they last?

It would be hard to beat-out good companies like Perdue Acoustics with DIY products when considering value.
Title: Re: Audio System for new dance studio
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on September 21, 2017, 11:31:41 am
I think I'd go with a bunch of 12" speakers. Wall mount and don't bother with subs.

Probably 8 in total, 1 in each corner of the big room and the same again when the two small rooms are joined together. When you close the wall up, each small room would have 2.

There'll be plenty of kick from a few 12"s, the sound will be spread reasonably evenly, and you won't need to mess with subwoofers.

8x decent 12" passive cabs plus an NU4-6000 would run the whole thing just fine, and should be well in budget.
Add a notepad mixer in each room with one line and one mic input and off you go. Joining the two small room systems together would need a little bit of thought, but won't be difficult.

Chris
Title: Re: Audio System for new dance studio
Post by: David Allred on September 21, 2017, 12:54:55 pm


I'm not sure I agree with the 'making' of acoustic panels.

It would be hard to beat-out good companies like Perdue Acoustics with DIY products when considering value.

Perdue uses the same materials available to the common market.  Proper techniques in building, positioning and mounting of course must be followed, but if you want to learn how, you can.
Title: Re: Audio System for new dance studio
Post by: lindsay Dean on September 21, 2017, 02:35:43 pm
no magic in acoustic panels

http://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html
Title: Audio System for new dance studio
Post by: Isaiah Haywood on September 22, 2017, 02:21:09 am
I think I'd go with a bunch of 12" speakers. Wall mount and don't bother with subs.

Probably 8 in total, 1 in each corner of the big room and the same again when the two small rooms are joined together. When you close the wall up, each small room would have 2.

There'll be plenty of kick from a few 12"s, the sound will be spread reasonably evenly, and you won't need to mess with subwoofers.

8x decent 12" passive cabs plus an NU4-6000 would run the whole thing just fine, and should be well in budget.
Add a notepad mixer in each room with one line and one mic input and off you go. Joining the two small room systems together would need a little bit of thought, but won't be difficult.

Chris


If I were on a super strict budget & going to build basic Passive Cabinets for Private lounge/Dance club use, Id take a serious look at doing something Coaxial/Point Source. 

Two options come to mind:  If you (The OP) have the time, skill, & patience, You could purchase something like MMATS PRO AUDIO'S exact paper pulp cone reproduction of old ElectroVoice PA drivers, & easily create a near point source coax that sounds decent--Giving you clear clean vocals etc out to about 18khz...  (I can get you more info If you want to go that route)

As part of my business, I do sound design & tuning for some local bars & nightclubs. 

Most are so far running on a tight budget & Dont want to spend "flagship money" on new mains off the bat, But Ive been getting more interest in Danley's new GO-2 speakers. (All made in USA not China)   

The GO-2 Speaker is Weather resistant for optinal outdoor use, comes with a mounting bracket,  & Is built around a 8" Point source driver.  It has extension to 31HZ.  Only downside is it doesnt reach 135-140db like some of their boxes do.  I believe output is something like 120db continuous @ 1m.
in your room, You could start with a pair and a Danley TH118 sub, all run off of a four channel amp, then upgrade to Four later on when your budget allows.

I would DEFINITELY run a subwoofer with them--So you can cross higher & get more clean output than fullrange.

Im not sure on the pricing here vs where you are, but theyre a bargain compared to other Danley tops -I believe they go for only $1,000 each here.

Danley always seems to impress people with their natural sound quality & non-harsh clarity--Its a big step up from the other brand you mentioned, IMO.
Title: Re: Audio System for new dance studio
Post by: Rob Spence on September 23, 2017, 12:00:14 am
Unless I missed it, the OP hasn't said what the audio goals are.

Dance can mean many things. Does he need it loud? How loud? How about low? EDM levels? Big thump... or not?

Lots of suggestions but how do we know what he needs?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: Audio System for new dance studio
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 23, 2017, 02:29:07 pm
Unless I missed it, the OP hasn't said what the audio goals are.

Dance can mean many things. Does he need it loud? How loud? How about low? EDM levels? Big thump... or not?

Lots of suggestions but how do we know what he needs?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

There is "dancing" at EDM events?  I thought the dancing consisted mostly of bodily movement inspired by consuming MDMA and other "experience-enhancing" stimulants and hallucinogenics.

That said, you're right, Rob.  We don't know enough at the SPL and bandwidth needs to make specific equipment recommendations and we're also not particularly aware of what products (and at what prices) are available in Markos's part of the Mediterranean.
Title: Re: Audio System for new dance studio
Post by: Nathan Riddle on September 25, 2017, 10:05:37 am
That said, you're right, Rob.  We don't know enough at the SPL and bandwidth needs to make specific equipment recommendations and we're also not particularly aware of what products (and at what prices) are available in Markos's part of the Mediterranean.

These are the times where I really don't understand what everyone is thinking.

Sure more info would be nice/great so we're not making as many ASSumptions.

But for the lower end market people don't know what they need/want. It's up to us to help them in that regard.

Markos said he is needing a sound sytem for a new "dance studio" and "dance school"

OP, correct me if I'm wrong. But this is what I think when I hear "dance studio"
https://dancewithmeusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/summerlin-dance-studio.jpg
http://www.dancestudioforfar.co.uk/s/cc_images/teaserbox_8768.jpg?t=1490743248

Isaiah, while trying to help out, he really didn't understand OP's needs and stated requirements for a dance/edm venue that has nothing to do with OP's project.

Tim, you do make a good point about the availability of products in Markos's location. That said, I believe most of us have kept from stating exact specs and generalized ways of approaches.

I still think we should simply look at the bids/proposals and say yea/nay. (obviously pricing and other info cut out) we just need to look at the speakers/components and say if they will work in the venue or not.

---

I think I'd go with a bunch of 12" speakers. Wall mount and don't bother with subs.

Probably 8 in total, 1 in each corner of the big room and the same again when the two small rooms are joined together. When you close the wall up, each small room would have 2.

There'll be plenty of kick from a few 12"s, the sound will be spread reasonably evenly, and you won't need to mess with subwoofers.

8x decent 12" passive cabs plus an NU4-6000 would run the whole thing just fine, and should be well in budget.
Add a notepad mixer in each room with one line and one mic input and off you go. Joining the two small room systems together would need a little bit of thought, but won't be difficult.

Chris

I still generally don't ascribe to speakers pointing towards the same area. Less is more.

I agree with the quantity and type though. I would still think about subs in the larger room (depending on style of dance of course).

I don't think any 12" 2-way provides the same 'bass' response that a dedicated sub does. Though that is probably mostly due to the plastic bodies of speakers these days for weight savings. Birch cabinets would improve that response for sure.

---

At the end of the day, here's what I might suggest/do. *limited info, best guess*

2x speakers per small room pointed in the same direction. By pointing towards the wall without glass so they 'shoot' into acoustic treatment you can help keep reflections down.

3 or 4 speakers in the larger room with a 12-18" sub in a corner. [you don't need a large sub, just something to get a 'feel' for the music if you end up with a mixed dance.

12" if no sub. You could probably do 8" or 10" with sub.

This all is dependent on room layout, spl requirements, location availability, etc.

---

no magic in acoustic panels

http://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

I believe this is in reference to me.

I never said there was 'magic' or 'unknown qualities' with acoustics.

I stated that a DIY approach typically** yields worse results than using tested verified equipment. That is true in speakers and it is true in acoustical treatment.

Doing a search for "acoustic treatment" in the forum yields a number of results:
Quote
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,156763.msg1438845.html#msg1438845
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,154253.msg1415138.html#msg1415138
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,19917.msg153437.html#msg153437
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,5685.msg1262609.html#msg1262609
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,153040.0.html
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,158367.msg1454718.html#msg1454718
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,155818.msg1495366.html#msg1495366
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,153869.msg1412014.html#msg1412014
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,161560.msg1485461.html#msg1485461
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,126374.msg1186917.html#msg1186917
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,19293.msg147623.html#msg147623
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,106668.msg995209.html#msg995209
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,110304.msg1030942.html#msg1030942
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,3676.msg20297.html#msg20297
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,103188.msg958674.html#msg958674

I contend that in general the conclusions of the aforementioned threads condense to: DIY acoustic treatment is generally not as good of an investment as verified panels. That isn't to say that it doesn't work or can't work. Just that when taking into account the time and money spent on DIY panels the results are lackluster.
Title: Re: Audio System for new dance studio
Post by: David Allred on September 25, 2017, 11:21:29 am
I contend that in general the conclusions of the aforementioned threads condense to: DIY acoustic treatment is generally not as good of an investment as verified panels. That isn't to say that it doesn't work or can't work. Just that when taking into account the time and money spent on DIY panels the results are lackluster.

I have installed Auralex absorption panels that a HS band director had donated to them, and built and installed DIY absorption panels in HS band rooms.  Both panel types did what our modeling and layout predicted.  The main functional difference is that the hardened surface of the auralex and similar panels do not absorb quite as well in the upper range of the panel's raw functional range, depending on the rooms resonances, that could be a good or bad thing.  Those hard surfaces (and beveled edges) do allow for placement in areas where DYI's might be damaged if placed.  DYI (unframed / fabric wrapped rigid) materials cost  floats around 10% of pre-made panels (panel purchase only).