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Title: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Kevin Bayersdorfer on June 24, 2017, 08:06:00 pm
So one of my DSR's stopped working today. Powers back on then protect and power light flash and it powers down. Anyone have this happen before? And of course I have a high profile gig next weekend. Guess one of my K10's will have to fill the spot
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Gordon Brinton on June 25, 2017, 05:27:19 am
They have a 7 year warranty. Did you register them?
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Kevin Bayersdorfer on June 25, 2017, 12:10:57 pm
 Yup the 7 years was one of the selling points.
Don't remember if I did register them, but I am usually pretty good at that stuff.
They have a 7 year warranty. Did you register them?
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Scott Bolt on June 25, 2017, 01:08:12 pm
I think all you need is proof of purchase.  Most stores keep electronic records and can send you a copy for warranty purposes.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Kevin Bayersdorfer on June 25, 2017, 01:11:24 pm
I think all you need is proof of purchase.  Most stores keep electronic records and can send you a copy for warranty purposes.

Yeah, Mike Pyle already sent me a copy of my invoice.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Kemper Watson on June 25, 2017, 08:04:04 pm
Yeah, Mike Pyle already sent me a copy of my invoice.

From my understanding they just swap out the modules, so it may be a quick turnaround..
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Kevin Bayersdorfer on June 25, 2017, 08:15:23 pm
From my understanding they just swap out the modules, so it may be a quick turnaround..
If the service center has one. Either way a local music store told me they have them for rentals so I may just rent one for the gig.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Kevin Bayersdorfer on June 26, 2017, 05:51:45 pm
So it's at the repair guy, he said he will try to just get me a new module, But Yamaha probably wont get back to him today, and it probably wont ship till late tomorrow or Wed. And the rental place doesn't rent DSR's. So I have to either rent 2 K12's for $150 or I might just buy a third DSR for $789 with tax. The way I see it I will have to dish out the $150 either way so I might as well use that towards a new one and move that to drum monitor on larger gigs.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Dave Garoutte on June 26, 2017, 07:16:34 pm
So it's at the repair guy, he said he will try to just get me a new module, But Yamaha probably wont get back to him today, and it probably wont ship till late tomorrow or Wed. And the rental place doesn't rent DSR's. So I have to either rent 2 K12's for $150 or I might just buy a third DSR for $789 with tax. The way I see it I will have to dish out the $150 either way so I might as well use that towards a new one and move that to drum monitor on larger gigs.

Where are you?
Lots of our members have the DSR112 and might rent one to you.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Kevin Bayersdorfer on June 26, 2017, 09:42:54 pm
Where are you?
Lots of our members have the DSR112 and might rent one to you.
Carmel NY, 60 miles north of NYC
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Kevin_Tisdall on June 27, 2017, 01:36:17 pm
Carmel NY, 60 miles north of NYC

I have 6 if you need any.  But I'm in Milford, CT.  Happy to help if I can.

--Kevin
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Kevin Bayersdorfer on August 07, 2017, 04:45:22 pm
I have 6 if you need any.  But I'm in Milford, CT.  Happy to help if I can.

--Kevin
Wow Thanks Kevin.
I just went ahead and purchased a third one.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Kevin Bayersdorfer on August 07, 2017, 05:22:29 pm
Sorry for not keeping the thread updated.
I went ahead and purchased a third one, can't hurt right...Well I got the one that failed back from warranty repair a week and a half ago, they changed out the board. I tested it for about an hour with program music, then put it away. Had my first gig with it this past Saturday. 2 15 song sets with break music before, during and after. As the fireworks were going off for the carnival I see some guy staring right into the speaker a foot away, I am like wth, I walk over and before I get a chance to get to him I see no lights on, on the speaker...F#%!. Yep one gig and it's out again.

I just dropped it off again, he said Yamaha said it would replace it again and thats it. They say I must be over-driving it. I am no pro, but I know my gain staging, at least I think I do. Never overloading the main out nor any of the channels and my mixes are crystal clear with no distortion.  I am running an X32 rack, an XR18 was the board when it went out the first time. I run all the pre's gain at between 20 and 24 db, channel meters doing between -10 and -20, all mics are SM 58 vocal, 57 guitar, Beta 52 kick, PG56 toms, Audix f15 OH's, and a Sennheiser 604 snare. Butterworth 24 highpass at 105hz, with 20 to 1 giving me about 3-6 db gain reduction on the LR out. M/C to subs with BW 24 HP at 40hz and LP at 105hz All channels but Kick and Bass have 70 or 120 High Pass filters on, and every channel has a high cut at 12k to 15k. So there are no lows really even reaching the mains and no crazy highs. The peak lights nor the limiter lights never come on, output knob at 2 o'clock, there is no way I am over-driving these speakers.

Here is a 2 channel recording from the USB out to a thumb drive on the X32 the night it failed again...as you can hear I am not over driving anything, no post processing, directly from USB to computer.  http://www.baystallations.com/stixxstonz/TravelingBand.mp3 (http://www.baystallations.com/stixxstonz/TravelingBand.mp3)

The warranty guy says if it goes again I will have to fight with Yamaha directly.
Wish me luck with the new board.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 07, 2017, 07:29:50 pm
Sorry for not keeping the thread updated.
I went ahead and purchased a third one, can't hurt right...Well I got the one that failed back from warranty repair a week and a half ago, they changed out the board. I tested it for about an hour with program music, then put it away. Had my first gig with it this past Saturday. 2 15 song sets with break music before, during and after. As the fireworks were going off for the carnival I see some guy staring right into the speaker a foot away, I am like wth, I walk over and before I get a chance to get to him I see no lights on, on the speaker...F#%!. Yep one gig and it's out again.

I just dropped it off again, he said Yamaha said it would replace it again and thats it. They say I must be over-driving it. I am no pro, but I know my gain staging, at least I think I do. Never overloading the main out nor any of the channels and my mixes are crystal clear with no distortion.  I am running an X32 rack, an XR18 was the board when it went out the first time. I run all the pre's gain at between 20 and 24 db, channel meters doing between -10 and -20, all mics are SM 58 vocal, 57 guitar, Beta 52 kick, PG56 toms, Audix f15 OH's, and a Sennheiser 604 snare. Butterworth 24 highpass at 105hz, with 20 to 1 giving me about 3-6 db gain reduction on the LR out. M/C to subs with BW 24 HP at 40hz and LP at 105hz All channels but Kick and Bass have 70 or 120 High Pass filters on, and every channel has a high cut at 12k to 15k. So there are no lows really even reaching the mains and no crazy highs. The peak lights nor the limiter lights never come on, output knob at 2 o'clock, there is no way I am over-driving these speakers.

Here is a 2 channel recording from the USB out to a thumb drive on the X32 the night it failed again...as you can hear I am not over driving anything, no post processing, directly from USB to computer.  http://www.baystallations.com/stixxstonz/TravelingBand.mp3 (http://www.baystallations.com/stixxstonz/TravelingBand.mp3)

The warranty guy says if it goes again I will have to fight with Yamaha directly.
Wish me luck with the new board.

It sounds like the nature of the failure points to over driving the unit and Yamaha & the service center know it.  After 8 years on the market they've fixed enough stuff that they know what various failures look like.  You might ask for a detailed report:  was it output transistors or PSU?  DSP?

The puzzling part is that you find no limiting or protect lights illuminated.  I'd expect to find the amp in fairly constant limiting for this failure to occur.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Kevin Bayersdorfer on August 07, 2017, 07:37:45 pm
It sounds like the nature of the failure points to over driving the unit and Yamaha & the service center know it.  After 8 years on the market they've fixed enough stuff that they know what various failures look like.  You might ask for a detailed report:  was it output transistors or PSU?  DSP?

The puzzling part is that you find no limiting or protect lights illuminated.  I'd expect to find the amp in fairly constant limiting for this failure to occur.

He showed me the old board today. No visible burnt components, and he didn't tell me of any specific area that was a failure.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Scott Bolt on August 07, 2017, 08:15:14 pm
I have driven one of mine into hard clip for an entire set on accident.  No damage.  After that incident, it was hard for me to imagine how one might break one of these speakers.

When you get it back, can you check the back limit light to see if it is on at normal volumes (or even higher volumes)?  The DSR112 has a soft limiter that has pretty good hysteresis (it stays on a little bit after each transient .... at least the limit light does).
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Jay Marr on August 07, 2017, 09:46:39 pm
My band mate has a pair of DSR112s and they both just topped working, much like you described.
Both at different points in time.
Both speakers died while being used for light acoustic duo work (and that's all he's ever done with them).
Never got an explanation of what went wrong, both amps were just replaced by a local service center.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: John Chiara on August 07, 2017, 10:27:22 pm
My band mate has a pair of DSR112s and they both just topped working, much like you described.
Both at different points in time.
Both speakers died while being used for light acoustic duo work (and that's all he's ever done with them).
Never got an explanation of what went wrong, both amps were just replaced by a local service center.

Same here.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 07, 2017, 11:18:50 pm
My band mate has a pair of DSR112s and they both just topped working, much like you described.
Both at different points in time.
Both speakers died while being used for light acoustic duo work (and that's all he's ever done with them).
Never got an explanation of what went wrong, both amps were just replaced by a local service center.

That makes me think of PSU failure, but it could be any of several things.  Since it's all on 1 board I don't imagine there is any other fast repair.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Richard Penrose on August 08, 2017, 03:00:30 am
I have the DXR15's not DSR112's but had an engineer make a big mistake and drove them into hard clipping with the limiter light permanently on for a few minutes. The DXR's were absolutely screaming and distorting. I thought they were both damaged but after he realised and changed things, they were still working perfectly. This was two years ago!
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Mike Karseboom on September 07, 2017, 05:38:52 pm
I had both of my DSR112's fail last weekend when used as mains over srx718 subs for a band at an outdoor wedding.  They were being driven fairly hard for a party of 120 or so but crossed over at 100Hz and not clipping.  No direct sun but the temp was around 90F.


Both boxes shut themselves off during the last 1/2 hour, after about 3 hours of continuous use.  They did not seem overly hot and smelled OK but maybe it was thermal protection.  They came back to life after turning them off and on.  Unfortunately one of them continued to go off and after successively shorter periods of coming back to life, it would not stay on at all. 


The other one stayed on the rest of the gig.  But the next day it started crackling and distorting when being used as a monitor.  I had this same problem with the same box last year and sent it in for repair.  The repair notes were somewhat obtuse and referenced some plate being tightened.


Having a need  for these boxes for a festival starting tomorrow I  thought I would at do an internal inspection of the drivers and electronics.  The drivers looked and felt good and sounded OK when driven from a conventional amp. 


I could not see anything burned or loose in the plate amp but did note these feature ribbon cables between the input block and the main amp block.  Ribbon cables have been a source of problems for me in the past with an old Mackie 1604 mixer and with my DR260 processors.  And, sure enough, cleaning and re-seating the ribbon cables completely fixed the distorting box and brought the dead box back to life except no woofer.


Additional disassembly and  tinkering with the box with the non-functional woofer exposed a somewhat unusual rigid multi-pin pass-through connector between the 3 circuit boards in the input block.  After pulling this apart and putting it back together to re-seat / clean it, the woofer came back to life. Yeah!


Now both boxes seem to be working 100% again.  My conclusion is that the ribbon cable connections and rigid multi-pin connectors can exhibit bad connectivity after some time in use.  I suppose this is the result of the constant vibration they must endure. 


I drive the boxes hard  when used as mains and this may exacerbate the problem.  I don't drive them into clipping and don't feel like I abuse these speakers.  Rather, I am of the opinion that the design of the connectors is weak.  I have K12's, PRX615's, and PRX712's that have been driven just as hard for more years of use and none of them have failed in any way.


I love the sound of the DSR112 but when I add these 3 separate failures to my list of complaints about the physical packaging, the love affair is becoming a bit tarnished.  I don't think I will be buying any more of these.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Wayne Smith2 on September 07, 2017, 06:45:41 pm
Owner, subscribing to follow

..Just to add, so many 'years, incidents of the 'mackie ribbon cr*p, ears perked up a bit here.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Jay Marr on September 08, 2017, 09:47:58 am

I could not see anything burned or loose in the plate amp but did note these feature ribbon cables between the input block and the main amp block.  Ribbon cables have been a source of problems for me in the past with an old Mackie 1604 mixer and with my DR260 processors.  And, sure enough, cleaning and re-seating the ribbon cables completely fixed the distorting box and brought the dead box back to life except no woofer.


Additional disassembly and  tinkering with the box with the non-functional woofer exposed a somewhat unusual rigid multi-pin pass-through connector between the 3 circuit boards in the input block.  After pulling this apart and putting it back together to re-seat / clean it, the woofer came back to life. Yeah!


Thanks, this is super helpful for troubleshooting if one fails on me (I just bought a set of these).
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on September 08, 2017, 12:49:38 pm
Just so no one panics over this, I've owned several dozen of these over the past few years. The only failure I've had has been recently when I noticed one starting to fizz and sputter a bit when out in the sun all day. It always worked fine at the shop afterwards so it took a while to troubleshoot but I finally started to notice a pattern. Anyways, Yamaha was aware of the problem, had me send the unit back and had it back to me by the end of that week. Working 100%. Yamaha service rocks if you do ever have issues.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Bob Leonard on September 08, 2017, 04:42:04 pm
That makes me think of PSU failure, but it could be any of several things.  Since it's all on 1 board I don't imagine there is any other fast repair.

One thread and a dozen failed cabinets? WTF, over.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 08, 2017, 05:04:39 pm
One thread and a dozen failed cabinets? WTF, over.

So for Mike K, it turns out to be ribbon cables and thru-board terminations that are oxidizing.  I'm batting 000 on this one.

I'd not be so quick to judge the DSR to be some kind of failure.  Like the X32, there are multi-bunches of these out in the wild and we hear almost exclusively from those who've had a failure.  Mike's investigation (probably not done by the service center, as they're paid by unit and not by hour) indicates this is also possibly environmental and/or age related and not a fatal design flaw.

Anyone who really doesn't want their DSR speakers any more can send them to me, I'll give them a good home.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Kemper Watson on September 08, 2017, 06:13:29 pm
So for Mike K, it turns out to be ribbon cables and thru-board terminations that are oxidizing.  I'm batting 000 on this one.

I'd not be so quick to judge the DSR to be some kind of failure.  Like the X32, there are multi-bunches of these out in the wild and we hear almost exclusively from those who've had a failure.  Mike's investigation (probably not done by the service center, as they're paid by unit and not by hour) indicates this is also possibly environmental and/or age related and not a fatal design flaw.

Anyone who really doesn't want their DSR speakers any more can send them to me, I'll give them a good home.

   Yep, no one complains about a working speaker. These things sound really good. Think I'll keep mine.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Scott Bolt on September 08, 2017, 06:34:46 pm
Mike,

As a DSR112 owner, I thank you for the information.  It may become useful for me some day.

My 7 year warranty will be up this fall.  I have lugged my speakers in the rain, ran them outdoors hard, and use them weekly.  At least my 2 have performed flawlessly.

I did have a TC Electronics M-One XL that started getting glitchy on me after 10 years of service.  Same problem (oxidized ribbon connection).

I am with Tim on this one.  If you want a home for them, I have plenty of room in my home for another pair ;)

I can see an oxidized ribbon cable being an issue after lots of use .... especially in humid conditions.  Considering how hard these speakers hit in the 90-120Hz range, I can see things getting a good rattling over the life of the speaker.

My old MixWiz also suffered from a ribbon cable connection problem.  For those people who have been doing this stuff for a while, ribbon cable connections are a prime suspect in any aged electronics gear that has been exposed to vibration and humidity.  Usually a little contact cleaner on the pins and a couple of insertions and removals is enough to put things back to working order.

Has anyone tried conductive grease in situations like this?  I was thinking that it might prevent corrosion and keep the contact on the pins even in the presence of lots of vibration.  Perhaps a little hot glue to secure the connector in place?

Another plus for these speakers is that even after 7 years of service, they look like brand new.  The surface treatment on these speakers is really fantastic.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Dave Garoutte on September 08, 2017, 07:02:29 pm
I was starting to get worried! :o

Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on September 08, 2017, 07:49:07 pm
No-one's getting mine!!!
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Stephen Kirby on September 12, 2017, 04:43:59 pm
Is there a commonality to the age of failure?  The old A&H MizWiz/GL boards needed to have the ribbon cable connectors cleaned every couple of years.  If this becomes standard preventative maintenance on DSRs, then an idea of how long they last might help prevent embarrassing shutdowns on the gig.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Alan Norris-Elye on September 13, 2017, 11:30:35 am
I have had good results, by using a contact cleaner, then "NO-OX" electrical grease on the contacts.
Some connections were done years ago, without having any further problems.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Jay Marr on September 13, 2017, 11:47:08 am
I have had good results, by using a contact cleaner, then "NO-OX" electrical grease on the contacts.
Some connections were done years ago, without having any further problems.

On DSRs?  Or other units?
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Steve Litscher on September 13, 2017, 12:19:19 pm
Just so no one panics over this, I've owned several dozen of these over the past few years. The only failure I've had has been recently when I noticed one starting to fizz and sputter a bit when out in the sun all day. It always worked fine at the shop afterwards so it took a while to troubleshoot but I finally started to notice a pattern. Anyways, Yamaha was aware of the problem, had me send the unit back and had it back to me by the end of that week. Working 100%. Yamaha service rocks if you do ever have issues.

We have 10 DSR112s and have yet to have an issue with any of them (knock on wood). For the money, they are truly outstanding.
Title: Re: DSR 112 failure
Post by: Alan Norris-Elye on September 13, 2017, 12:46:05 pm
On DSRs?  Or other units?
Mackie 1604, allen heath mixwiz.  Both had ongoing problems, that this seemed to resolve.  It is used to prevent corrosion between different metals in the electrical industry.


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