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Title: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Dave Guilford on May 22, 2017, 01:50:37 pm
 Naturally I'm familiar with the KF series because there's a ton of it in my part of the country. What else is out there? There's one local dude who uses community SLS960 boxes that I've worked with her once or twice, but I never really checked their  intelligibility at a distance. 

 Let's say the length of a football field is my goal. What's out there, new or used?   Bonus points if boxes are less than 120 pounds. 

 Events such as "picnic in the park" which is put on by the bank and is free downtown on Tuesdays. That style event   
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on May 22, 2017, 01:54:02 pm
Naturally I'm familiar with the KF series because there's a ton of it in my part of the country. What else is out there? There's one local dude who uses community SLS960 boxes that I've worked with her once or twice, but I never really checked their  intelligibility at a distance. 

 Let's say the length of a football field is my goal. What's out there, new or used?   Bonus points if boxes are less than 120 pounds. 

 Events such as "picnic in the park" which is put on by the bank and is free downtown on Tuesdays. That style event   

You need to define your goal in terms of more than just distance.  A more practical goal needs to take into account SPL over the desired area, width, power requirements and deployment options...for a start.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 22, 2017, 02:16:01 pm
Naturally I'm familiar with the KF series because there's a ton of it in my part of the country. What else is out there? There's one local dude who uses community SLS960 boxes that I've worked with her once or twice, but I never really checked their  intelligibility at a distance. 

 Let's say the length of a football field is my goal. What's out there, new or used?   Bonus points if boxes are less than 120 pounds. 

 Events such as "picnic in the park" which is put on by the bank and is free downtown on Tuesdays. That style event   

The inverse square law is not your friend here.  How high can you get the speakers in the air?

Working backwards, how loud will it be @ 30ft in order to have 80dB :A: at 300 ft?
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Dave Guilford on May 22, 2017, 06:39:47 pm
You need to define your goal in terms of more than just distance.  A more practical goal needs to take into account SPL over the desired area, width, power requirements and deployment options...for a start.

With all due respect, I believe I gave a pretty accurate description of the event.  Perhaps you didn't read the full posts?  Or perhaps you dont have any boxes to suggest?   

To review - it's a "party in the park" type thing.  I'm sure you've been to one or even worked one.  There's nothing weird or unusual about it.  I also even mentioned a specific box style.  I'm simply looking for similar options, which I may not be familiar with. 

I will take into account the deployment suggestion because I didn't mention that.  It'll be ground stacked. 

So let's try this again.  Suggestions for top boxes which are horn loaded or can give intelligabilty at a distance?

Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Gordon Brinton on May 22, 2017, 07:17:57 pm
...So let's try this again.  Suggestions for top boxes which are horn loaded or can give intelligabilty at a distance?

The T24N is a very clean and coherent point-source. It weighs in at only 72 pounds. I've demo'ed it and I think that it has better transient response than the KF's.

http://www.twaudio.de/en/product/t-series/t24n-the-neoclassic/ (http://www.twaudio.de/en/product/t-series/t24n-the-neoclassic/)
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Rick Powell on May 22, 2017, 07:23:44 pm
With all due respect, I believe I gave a pretty accurate description of the event.  Perhaps you didn't read the full posts?  Or perhaps you dont have any boxes to suggest?   

To review - it's a "party in the park" type thing.  I'm sure you've been to one or even worked one.  There's nothing weird or unusual about it.  I also even mentioned a specific box style.  I'm simply looking for similar options, which I may not be familiar with. 

I will take into account the deployment suggestion because I didn't mention that.  It'll be ground stacked. 

So let's try this again.  Suggestions for top boxes which are horn loaded or can give intelligabilty at a distance?
I had a Danley SH50 for a while, and it seemed to be very intelligible at a distance (it's 140 feet from my garage to the end of the driveway and I demo'ed it at that distance). Not the loudest speaker of that size, but very hi-fi. And the weight was right in that 120 lb. range that you mentioned. I agree that in order to skin this cat you would do best to figure out the SPL and coverage area you need at your outer limits, and see if you can live with how loud it would necessarily be in the vicinity of the speaker to hit that mark...or consider a different approach like a delayed reinforcement.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on May 22, 2017, 07:31:40 pm
... Let's say the length of a football field is my goal. What's out there, new or used?   

 Events such as "picnic in the park" which is put on by the bank and is free downtown on Tuesdays. That style event   

This is what you gave, so general as to be vague.  Yes, we've all done stuff like this...IN GENERAL...so any advice will cover the "general" nature.

As far as 300' and ground stacking...unless the ground at the front is high enough so your speakers will be at least 12' above the closest listeners, you're pretty much SOOL with even horn-loaded cabs. 

Cut that distance in half and it'll be more real-world.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Gordon Brinton on May 22, 2017, 07:37:16 pm
...Cut that distance in half and it'll be more real-world.

But, what if the wind is blowing down field? :D
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 22, 2017, 07:38:03 pm
With all due respect, I believe I gave a pretty accurate description of the event.  Perhaps you didn't read the full posts?  Or perhaps you dont have any boxes to suggest?   

To review - it's a "party in the park" type thing.  I'm sure you've been to one or even worked one.  There's nothing weird or unusual about it.  I also even mentioned a specific box style.  I'm simply looking for similar options, which I may not be familiar with. 

I will take into account the deployment suggestion because I didn't mention that.  It'll be ground stacked. 

So let's try this again.  Suggestions for top boxes which are horn loaded or can give intelligabilty at a distance?
I think you,need to discuss in terms of frequency response expected and at what level.

If you can't objectively quantify your goals then at least state the genre.  The lower in frequency you want to go will define the choices.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Dave Guilford on May 22, 2017, 07:47:18 pm
Just looking for ideas.  I'm happy to look up specs for boxes where I lack familiarity.

I currently have (4) Srx725 boxes over (4) srx728 subs.  Just worried that the sound will lack detail beyond 125ft ish.   I haven't had a Chance to use all 4 tops at once - usually it's 2 smaller systems. 

As for quantifying - it doesn't need to be balls loud 250ft away. Just has to be heard clearly.   
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 22, 2017, 07:52:06 pm
I dont want you to give numbers on the speakers.  I want you to say I need 90db SPL down to 32hz at 80 meters or something like that.  "Balls loud" is very subjective.  My balls are quite sensitive.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on May 22, 2017, 08:00:05 pm
As for quantifying - it doesn't need to be balls loud 250ft away. Just has to be heard clearly.

Dave...

There are still factors to be considered regarding performance.

Is there any significant ambient sound?  Any proximity to white noise from transportation corridors?  How about reflections/slap back off of surrounding buildings?

"Heard clearly" can be iffy when any of the above issues are in play.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Mike Monte on May 22, 2017, 08:04:55 pm
Naturally I'm familiar with the KF series because there's a ton of it in my part of the country. What else is out there? There's one local dude who uses community SLS960 boxes that I've worked with her once or twice, but I never really checked their  intelligibility at a distance. 

 Let's say the length of a football field is my goal. What's out there, new or used?   Bonus points if boxes are less than 120 pounds. 

 Events such as "picnic in the park" which is put on by the bank and is free downtown on Tuesdays. That style event   
Yorkville TX8/9s combination works well for me.
There's a rig for sale at this time on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yorkville-TX-rig-/182544080207?hash=item2a80799d4f:g:Cw0AAOSw53NY~nmE
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Jim McKeveny on May 23, 2017, 07:31:54 am

"Heard clearly" can be iffy when any of the above issues are in play.

"I just want to hear myself" said the whisper-quiet female vocalist standing 3 feet from the drum kit in her rock band....
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Chris Hindle on May 23, 2017, 08:18:17 am
"I just want to hear myself" said the whisper-quiet female vocalist standing 3 feet from the drum kit in her rock band....
Hey, I've done her. It wasn't "pretty"   :D
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Nathan Riddle on May 23, 2017, 10:34:49 am
Dave,

I've taken to taking a 'best guess' approach for these general type questions.

Hoping to direct the thread toward a more suitable solution because we've taken some 'pot-shots' at what OP is looking for.

Best guess? OS80. It is outdoor rated... wait, scratch that. I was thinking installed because requirements are vague.

SM80 then instead for portable. It's going to hold up over distance better than any (most?) 2/3-way trap boxes. It will get your vocal range and that is all that seems to be needed. It will be heard 250ft away easily.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Casey McDonald on May 23, 2017, 11:58:55 am
Just looking for ideas.  I'm happy to look up specs for boxes where I lack familiarity.

I currently have (4) Srx725 boxes over (4) srx728 subs.  Just worried that the sound will lack detail beyond 125ft ish.   I haven't had a Chance to use all 4 tops at once - usually it's 2 smaller systems. 

As for quantifying - it doesn't need to be balls loud 250ft away. Just has to be heard clearly.

It's not specifically what you asked for (as in a new type of box) - but could you bring all 4 tops and do delays?  Do you have stand alone processing for each of the 2 smaller systems? 

Casey
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 23, 2017, 12:52:41 pm
It's not specifically what you asked for (as in a new type of box) - but could you bring all 4 tops and do delays?  Do you have stand alone processing for each of the 2 smaller systems? 

Casey

This is where I was heading in my reply (#2) above.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: jason misterka on May 23, 2017, 08:00:53 pm
Turbosound Aspect 880. 

Jason

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Jason Raboin on May 23, 2017, 10:13:25 pm
Fulcrum Acoustic AH96 or AH65 depending on dispersion required. 

A football field is 300', so if you lose 6 db per doubling, you will lose around 40 db at 300' vs the 1M rating. That's not taking into account wind or hf absorption loss.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Tim Tyler on May 24, 2017, 12:57:39 pm
Turbosound Aspect 880. 

Jason

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

-or a couple of Aspect 500 per side...

-Tim T
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Nathan Riddle on May 24, 2017, 02:19:46 pm
EAW QX series?
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Jeffrey Knorr - CobraSound.com on May 24, 2017, 03:27:43 pm
Fulcrum Acoustic AH96 or AH65 depending on dispersion required. 

A football field is 300', so if you lose 6 db per doubling, you will lose around 40 db at 300' vs the 1M rating. That's not taking into account wind or hf absorption loss.

I've attempted going down this road with Fulcrum but they strong advised against attempting to use the AH series for portable use.  I feel that there's ample room in the market for a KF650 killer.  The Danley SH46 is definitely one option.

Jeff
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on May 24, 2017, 03:52:40 pm
I feel that there's ample room in the market for a KF650 killer.  The Danley SH46 is definitely one option.

Jeff

Yep, a good option.
And maybe the closest thing to the SH46 is Peter Morris's DIY60
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Steven Eudaly on May 24, 2017, 04:05:54 pm
I've attempted going down this road with Fulcrum but they strong advised against attempting to use the AH series for portable use.  I feel that there's ample room in the market for a KF650 killer.  The Danley SH46 is definitely one option.

Jeff

Or why not just go used KF650. There were some in marketplace recently. A solid deal if still available. http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,163552.0.html

Add a UX3600/8800 and some decent power and you've got a great rig that likely fits this "party in the park" budget well.

Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Jeff Bankston on May 24, 2017, 04:20:42 pm
Tycobrahe used a JBL horn and 2-15" in a flat front cabinet for Caljam74. IIRC the spl was 104db 1/4 mile away. Getting the speakers up above peoples heads is a must. The wind can be your friend or enemy.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on May 24, 2017, 04:27:59 pm
Tycobrahe used a JBL horn and 2-15" in a flat front cabinet for Caljam74. IIRC the spl was 104db 1/4 mile away. Getting the speakers up above peoples heads is a must. The wind can be your friend or enemy.
1990 called... they want their audio systems back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Bill Hornibrook on May 24, 2017, 04:29:55 pm
Love the guy onstage in bell bottom jeans  :D
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on May 24, 2017, 04:53:48 pm
EAW QX series?

Very, very good install box, sadly not "tour friendly" although I've done shows with it pole-mounted wth the U-bracket upside-down.

KF650 or KF750 with a UX or Powersoft DSP would be a very good portable choice.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Tom Roche on May 24, 2017, 05:31:28 pm
Tycobrahe used a JBL horn and 2-15" in a flat front cabinet for Caljam74. IIRC the spl was 104db 1/4 mile away. Getting the speakers up above peoples heads is a must. The wind can be your friend or enemy.

Wouldn't that mean at 1m it was roughly 155dB?
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Jeff Bankston on May 24, 2017, 05:50:34 pm
Wouldn't that mean at 1m it was roughly 155dB?
probably. but it was a lot of boxes so the spl would have been very high at 1m. and they were very high above people heads. and the wind didnt blow against them. i have heard loud car stereos from over 300 feet.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 24, 2017, 07:10:40 pm
Wouldn't that mean at 1m it was roughly 155dB?
No.

It "could" mean that-IF all of the sound came from one place.

But as you can see, the sources of sound were spread out quite a bit.

So the individual sources were much lower in level.

At a far distance the distances between the sources
This of course does not mean it sounded good at that distance, only that they measured that level of TOTAL sound at that location (PA plus outside noise)

Once again, the "Simple numbers" don't tell the whole story and can lead to wrong answers.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Jim McKeveny on May 25, 2017, 08:25:11 am
Can we please retire the expression "Long Throw"?
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Craig Hauber on May 25, 2017, 09:33:52 am
1990 called... they want their audio systems back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

The "74" in the name Caljam was the year.  You are off by a couple decades.

I do think that Tycobrae design was (and still is) one of the most popular configurations of PA boxes though, even through all those decades.  Who here hasn't ran or mixed on a dual-15 JBL-loaded box sometime in their life?
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Scott Olewiler on May 25, 2017, 09:55:59 am
Can we please retire the expression "Long Throw"?

Playing Devils Advocate - Are not some speakers louder at distance then others with the same startng SPL?  Or just more coherent sounding?

If we put a SRM450 beside an SM80 playing the same source material at the same SPL at 1 meter, is the SM80 louder at 50 meters, or is it just more coherent and thus sounds louder?
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Casey McDonald on May 25, 2017, 10:52:59 am
Fulcrum Acoustic AH96 or AH65 depending on dispersion required. 

A football field is 300', so if you lose 6 db per doubling, you will lose around 40 db at 300' vs the 1M rating. That's not taking into account wind or hf absorption loss.

Yes exactly - or to put that in absolute terms for the source to be heard clearly at one end - say 80dB (??) it would be around 120dB at the source, which seems like a fairly formal sound level for the people up close.  You may end up with a no-mans land close to the PA and lose a bunch of square footage.  This is what a person would be asking from a single style cabinet covering the length of the field, no matter what it is... although a better sounding speaker at 1m may make the high levels less offensive (??) and more intelligible at distance (??)

Another idea on the outside chance, if the site and the organizers are conducive, set up on the wide end and use the 4x speakers you already have for a short and wide coverage.

Casey



Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on May 25, 2017, 02:40:47 pm
Are not some speakers louder at distance then others with the same startng SPL? 


On axis for both....my 'understanding' is no, one speaker will not be louder than another with the same starting spl taken at the same distance.
(provided starting spl is from equal frequency ranges with relatively flat magnitude response thru the ranges, and that the chosen starting distance is past the nearfield for both speakers...)
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Tom Danley on May 25, 2017, 04:55:47 pm
Playing Devils Advocate - Are not some speakers louder at distance then others with the same startng SPL?  Or just more coherent sounding?

If we put a SRM450 beside an SM80 playing the same source material at the same SPL at 1 meter, is the SM80 louder at 50 meters, or is it just more coherent and thus sounds louder?

Hi
A loudspeaker that radiates an interference pattern (exhibits destructive interference) does normally change it’s timber or spectral balance as a function of distance and position and is strongly affected by wind moving the interference pattern around.     

A single acoustic source like an sm-80 sounds essentially the same at any distance sans excess hf absorption and SPL fall off from inverse square law and is MUCH less affected by wind..  Reaching the far end of a foot ball field with great sound is no problem, happens all the time.
Tom
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Stephen Kirby on May 25, 2017, 06:40:34 pm
Playing Devils Advocate - Are not some speakers louder at distance then others with the same startng SPL?  Or just more coherent sounding?

If we put a SRM450 beside an SM80 playing the same source material at the same SPL at 1 meter, is the SM80 louder at 50 meters, or is it just more coherent and thus sounds louder?
The coax will be more coherent.  The SM80 will have better pattern control.  So that above a frequency dictated by the horn angle and mouth size the energy radiated will primarily be within that pattern.  A 15" two way with a high crossover point will have very inconsistent pattern so that at distance the apparent frequency response will be different than up close.  Which will affect intelligibility.

My understanding is that a large horn with a narrower pattern will contain the energy within a smaller area, meaning that it will appear to have more energy at a distance than something that distributes the same energy over a wider area.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Jonathan Betts on May 25, 2017, 06:47:06 pm
The coax will be more coherent.  The SM80 will have better pattern control.  So that above a frequency dictated by the horn angle and mouth size the energy radiated will primarily be within that pattern.  A 15" two way with a high crossover point will have very inconsistent pattern so that at distance the apparent frequency response will be different than up close.  Which will affect intelligibility.

My understanding is that a large horn with a narrower pattern will contain the energy within a smaller area, meaning that it will appear to have more energy at a distance than something that distributes the same energy over a wider area.


Pile a whole bunch of subs underneath one and you have a quality, easy to deploy,  high output system. I don't miss my KF 650's at all.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 25, 2017, 06:50:24 pm


My understanding is that a large horn with a narrower pattern will contain the energy within a smaller area, meaning that it will appear to have more energy at a distance than something that distributes the same energy over a wider area.


My understanding is that a large horn with a narrower pattern will contain the energy within a smaller area, meaning that it will appear to have more energy at a distance than something that distributes the same energy over a wider area.
The problem is that as the pattern gets narrower, the horn MUST get larger in order to maintain control to the same freq.

The rate of falloff (inverse square law) will be the same.

The problem with having different horns "start at the same level" is where do you measure this "starting level"?

In many cases it is NOT at 1m.  Often it is further away for an "effective" acoustic origin.

In some cases you need to be several meters away to have an effective "starting point" to compare with.

As usual, it is not as simple as it might appear to get a correct answer.

Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Ben Blackwell on May 25, 2017, 11:51:15 pm
kv2 esd15 (passive/77lb) or ex15 (powered/94lb).  15 three way horn loaded and coax. i have the passive version, but i haven't used it in the situation the op describes.  seems in the category of the kf650 tho.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 26, 2017, 07:25:51 am
The coax will be more coherent.
Yes a coax "has the ability" to be more coherent., HOWEVER, just because it is a coax DOES NOT mean that it haves properly.

There are some models of raw drivers (from respected manufacturers) who have the HF in slightly the wrong place.

So there is no way to get a passive crossover to align the lows and highs.

If it is biamped, yes it would be possible, but passively it is not.

So yes, the sound would come from a single point (a very good thing) but the phase response may not be good, which can affect the sonic quality.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 26, 2017, 07:34:25 am
Playing Devils Advocate - Are not some speakers louder at distance then others with the same startng SPL?  Or just more coherent sounding?

If we put a SRM450 beside an SM80 playing the same source material at the same SPL at 1 meter, is the SM80 louder at 50 meters, or is it just more coherent and thus sounds louder?
Often people get hung up on the "simple SPL number".

That number is just a measure of the loudness and says NOTHING about the sound quality or clarity.

I have noticed a number of things recently at various events I have attended.

If the system is truly full range with nice deep solid lows and very clean sounding, the FOH guys have tended to run it at a lower level than I would expect for "typical" shows of that type (metal-rap etc).

It was not because they were "running out of system", but rather because they were able to get the sound they wanted, without having to resort to simple SPL to get the "feel".

Many people are of the mindset "If I can't hear the TV, turn it up".

But the problem may not be the actual SPL, but rather the clarity, and the only thing they know is "turn it up".

If the levels are lower (due to a cleaner sound), then the natural compression of your hearing is not as much (so you can enjoy a wider dynamic range of the music), and there is less overall hearing damage, you can communicate better (talk to the girl next to you or bartenders hearing drink orders better).

SPL is NOT the only answer to a "good impactful show" or "being able to hear what is being said".

Just think of a person talking in a noisy environment, they have to raise their voices to be heard.

But if the noise was lower (ie less interactions), then they don't have to talk as loud.

Louder is not always better.  Our hearing starts to "fight back" after a certain point, and there is nothing we can do about it.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Peter Morris on May 26, 2017, 11:17:26 am
Yep, a good option.
And maybe the closest thing to the SH46 is Peter Morris's DIY60

...thanks Mark  ;D ... FWIW one DIY90 @ 200ft on windy day with an iPhone https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebZ2gzHVXIE&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Jason Raboin on May 26, 2017, 09:49:30 pm
None of the proposed solutions get away from the fact that it would be blisteringly loud at the front to be 80db @ 300'. 

If the speaker can get up high, and the front row back a bit and barely on axis, I mean maybe, but these systems going into stadium installs are all flown really far from the nearest person, aren't they?  It's just not the same for a concert system.

Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Dave Guilford on May 27, 2017, 12:05:55 am
I ground stack everything , and I have a couple high quality palettes , so the top of the SRX725 is approx 9ft up , and thentweeter itself is 8ft up. 

So above heads? Yes. Up high enough? Prob not.  Suggestions on scaff or other ways to get it up for not thousands of dollars?
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Stephen Kirby on May 27, 2017, 12:26:30 am
That's where something like an SM80 on a BT-12 tilter up on something like a DT-3800 crank stand comes into play.  Put it 12 feet in the air and tilt appropriately and you can easily cover a couple hundred feet.  I just ordered a couple of those stands for my DSRs from Mike and will use them outdoors in a couple weeks.  Looking forward to seeing how much more carry I can get with them higher up.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 27, 2017, 03:29:53 am
That's where something like an SM80 on a BT-12 tilter up on something like a DT-3800 crank stand comes into play.  Put it 12 feet in the air and tilt appropriately and you can easily cover a couple hundred feet.  I just ordered a couple of those stands for my DSRs from Mike and will use them outdoors in a couple weeks.  Looking forward to seeing how much more carry I can get with them higher up.

I will send some pictures.  Over the next 5 days I am rebuilding some beastly horns I got from an auction at Loud and Clear out of Cinci.  They are sorta EAW clones.  My first pass is with some EV DH-1A's and a 10" EAW clone with an inverted dust cap to clear the phase plug.

I am going to use these on a summer lawn series with STX828's taking care of the low end.  If I have too big a hole in the crossover region I will add some 15"'s to each side.

This is going to be a lesson in system tuning for me.  I don't have crazy expectations.  I am getting them up 6' on scaffold, tight packing two a side.  The stage is on the top of a hill and crests down about 30' to the bottom.  I may have to use some downtilt.

I plan on starting a thread and sharing the entire experience.

Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Tom Danley on May 27, 2017, 12:46:30 pm
None of the proposed solutions get away from the fact that it would be blisteringly loud at the front to be 80db @ 300'. 

If the speaker can get up high, and the front row back a bit and barely on axis, I mean maybe, but these systems going into stadium installs are all flown really far from the nearest person, aren't they?  It's just not the same for a concert system.

Hi
Your thinking of a point source like ripples in a pond, but the more useful form is a loudspeaker that only projects a portion of that sphere, as if it had radiated through a window.   Given that, of more use yet is one that has the same dispersion angle at all frequencies and this is called constant directivity.   
To the degree one has CD behavior, one finds that as you move off axis, the spectral balance or “sound” doesn’t change; only the SPL falls. 

In that situation, one can often find a combination of vertical pattern angle, mounting height and aim angle such that there is VERY little change in SPL (like + - 2dB at Penn state Beaver stadium) or texture over a very large area so “it sounds the same everywhere”. 
 
Strong  consistent Vertical pattern control can let you put a really powerful speaker aiming at the far side just a few 10’s of feet above the fans and not roast them.   
At Kinnick stadium in Iowa, the far seats are 800+ feet from such a speaker system in the scoreboard and at onset of limiting, was hitting 108A dB at 800 feet, yet was very acceptable directly below.

Bottom line to make this work, you need to have consistent pattern control (CD) and predictive design software but the approach works really well for stadiums and large outdoor spaces.
You might contact Ivan off list, he has set up a bunch of stadiums and might have some tips.
Best,
Tom
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: eric lenasbunt on May 27, 2017, 03:22:57 pm
I can't believe it took everyone so long to say SM80 on a tall crank up. The thing I would say is you really MUST use the TH118 or they have a major hole in the spectrum.


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Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 27, 2017, 04:38:41 pm
I can't believe it took everyone so long to say SM80 on a tall crank up. The thing I would say is you really MUST use the TH118 or they have a major hole in the spectrum.


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What we do for demos when we need to get the SM80 up in the air is use a K&M 21300 crank up stand-but with the pole extension on the top. 

The extension gets it up another couple of feet.

Regarding the low freq "cutoff" of the SM80.  There is a little "trick" you can play to get it to have lower extension.

The Driver is in a sealed box-so that means the rolloff is at 1/2 the rate of a ported box.

The sealed box does a couple of things.  Due to the slower rolloff, it is easier to mate with subs for a good alignment.

Next, because it is sealed, the driver does not move as much (excursion) as with a ported box-so the driver is not "flopping around".

The impedance of the driver is also much higher at those lower freq.

So you can put a boost (I have done 12dB @70Hz at gotten good results) down low, without putting a lot of strain on the driver.

Since the impedance is high, there actually little power (a good bit less than at higher freq) going to the woofer-so it is fine there.

Since the excursion is controlled, that part is fine also.

The cabinet will "tell you" when you are pushing the woofer to hard.  It will "bark".  Of course the higher the freq of boost, or the lower the boost, the more level you can send to it.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on May 28, 2017, 04:58:14 am
Pardon me for asking, but when did a 80 degreee speaker with a 134dB SPL rating become a long throw device?

I think I missed that meeting.

Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 28, 2017, 10:30:02 am
Pardon me for asking, but when did a 80 degreee speaker with a 134dB SPL rating become a long throw device?

I think I missed that meeting.
It depends on what is considered "long throw".

For some people it is a narrow pattern.  But to maintain that pattern it MUST be large.

For others it simple means the ability to be able to hear thing clearly at a long distance.  In order to do that, the loudspeaker must be able to "hold together" over distance.  Most do not, and they fall apart as you move further away.

The OS80 (the outdoor weatherized version of the SM80) is used quite often at football stadiums covering the opposite side.

Now that is only about 300', so it depends on what is considered "a long distance".
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Nathan Riddle on May 28, 2017, 11:27:53 am
I can't believe it took everyone so long to say SM80 on a tall crank up. The thing I would say is you really MUST use the TH118 or they have a major hole in the spectrum.

See reply #15  8)

I think it's because the question wasn't worded very well (for us) and everyone was trying to get more info about the application.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on May 28, 2017, 01:19:29 pm
It depends on what is considered "long throw".

For some people it is a narrow pattern.  But to maintain that pattern it MUST be large.

For others it simple means the ability to be able to hear thing clearly at a long distance.  In order to do that, the loudspeaker must be able to "hold together" over distance.  Most do not, and they fall apart as you move further away.

The OS80 (the outdoor weatherized version of the SM80) is used quite often at football stadiums covering the opposite side.

Now that is only about 300', so it depends on what is considered "a long distance".


I guess it's a rather nice "long throw speech only" box.
But for a music application it's SPL rating is very low for any serious long throw.

At a 100m it's going to be 94 dB Peak. That's not very loud for anything else than speech.
I would not like to use a single box array with such a low SPL rating beyond 50m with live music unless it had a VERY good limiter to ensure survival.

And then you have the added effect of the limiter to the overall sound, not something I'd want if I could avoid it.
 
BTW: At what distance is the 134dB Peak number in your datasheet?


Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 28, 2017, 02:52:25 pm


BTW: At what distance is the 134dB Peak number in your datasheet?

All of the specs are back calculated to the standard 1M.

We actually measure at further distances, in order to get a better representation of the freq response, and then subtract out the difference in distance.

If we actually measured at 1M, then the low freq would be louder, so the -3dB point would be lower.

But you won't get that same measurement at a further distance.

We try to put graphs and numbers that are actually achievable in the real world, not just those that "look good on a spec sheet".

Basically, if you have decent test gear, you can get the same results as the spec sheets in your backyard.

You don't need "specialized test signals" or conditions to get the "special numbers".

And the response is show, so you can see where the -3dB points actually come from, the actual sensitivity etc.

Without a graph, you have NO IDEA where the "simple numbers on the spec sheet" actually come from.

 You may want to "think" they come from something you assume, but that is not always the case.

You MUST see an unprocessed graph to get any sort of idea of actual sensitivity and low and high freq capability.

A processed graph really doesn't tell a whole lot in terms of actual capability



Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Peter Morris on May 29, 2017, 02:19:32 am
A speakers’ throw is really its ability to maintain articulation over distance.

If you use a speaker with a wide dispersion angel in a long narrow room, at the back of the room there will be a lot of reverberant energy compared to the direct sound. On the other hand if you use a speaker with a narrow dispersion the ratio of direct sound to reverberant energy will be improved, people will say its throw was better.

In simple terms if you use the same compression driver on a horn with a narrow dispersion angle you will be able to put the energy in a smaller area compared to a wide angle horn, therefore it has the potential to be louder.

The issue of throw becomes particularly noticeable with an array of speakers. Those that are not designed to work together will have a lot of phase cancellation and articulation loss with distance.

There are various solutions to achieve throw including constructing a  “golf ball” array of narrow pattern boxes, often called long throw boxes (eg. Turbosound Flashlight) or using a line array where each box has a very narrow vertical pattern. These solutions work but are far from perfect.

As I sure Ivan will point out that there is still quite a bit of phase cancellation … which doesn’t happen with Danley’s designs, but it does result in some very large and heavy boxes that are not particularly scalable or flexible … but sound great and throw very very well.
 
FWIW a plane source attenuates 0dB per doubling of distance in the near field, a line source -3dB and a point source -6 dB, but once you get into the far field they all attenuate at -6dB.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 29, 2017, 08:34:15 am
A speakers’ throw is really its ability to maintain articulation over distance.

If you use a speaker with a wide dispersion angel in a long narrow room, at the back of the room there will be a lot of reverberant energy compared to the direct sound. On the other hand if you use a speaker with a narrow dispersion the ratio of direct sound to reverberant energy will be improved, people will say its throw was better.

The issue of throw becomes particularly noticeable with an array of speakers. Those that are not designed to work together will have a lot of phase cancellation and articulation loss with distance.

There are various solutions to achieve throw including constructing a  “golf ball” array of narrow pattern boxes, often called long throw boxes (eg. Turbosound Flashlight) or using a line array where each box has a very narrow vertical pattern. These solutions work but are far from perfect.

As I sure Ivan will point out that there is still quite a bit of phase cancellation … which doesn’t happen with Danley’s designs, but it does result in some very large and heavy boxes that are not particularly scalable or flexible … but sound great and throw very very well.
 
FWIW a plane source attenuates 0dB per doubling of distance in the near field, a line source -3dB and a point source -6 dB, but once you get into the far field they all attenuate at -6dB.
And it all has to do do with the size of the device vs the freq of interest vs the pattern.

Many (I would say most) people would be really surprised at the short distance that a line array is actually 3dB/doubling at the lower freq.

Depending on the size of the array-we could be talking a couple of feet.

At the higher freq, the distance that it maintains 3dB is longer.  So the result is that the tonality changes over distance.

Of course the marketing doesn't want you to know that-you are "supposed" to "believe" that it is 3dB/doubling at all distances and all freq.

And when you add the "self interference" into the equation, simple SPL does not begin to tell the story of how it actually SOUNDS at longer distances.

The idea of multiple smaller pattern horns "seems" like a good one at first.

Until you do the math and realize that as the horn pattern gets narrower, the horn size MUST go up in order to maintain the same freq pattern control.

So now we have huge horns to deal with.

Small horns simple don't have the pattern control people "think" they do, except over the top octave or two.  Some of the larger ones in normal PA cabinet "might" get down to the top 3 octaves.

That leaves a lot of freq that the sound is just spreading out and not being controlled

Yes, size matters.  Horns much be large to have pattern control.

Line arrays must be long to have pattern control.

If you want a particular pattern control for a line array, then it does not matter whether you are doing light jazz or metal, the line must still be the same size.

Pattern control has nothing to do with SPL needs.  The math is very different.  But almost nobody thinks in those terms when specing line arrays-But they should
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on May 29, 2017, 02:32:46 pm
To my knowledge almost no line arrays actually achieve the 3dB/doubling rule for anything other than the middle octave around 800-1k which is not being nullified by fir filtering anyway because that causes massive frequency response issues across the listening field.

Almost all line arrays act as a point source(or array of them) at the higher frequencies and are omni at lower frequencies unless they are sufficiently long.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on May 29, 2017, 05:21:50 pm
I dont think that such box exists that is not huge and heavy. Especially if we are talking one box per side solution.
Even if that is 3 splayed boxes, you gain better coverage, not getting louder over distance.
So, basically if you want small, portable, "long throw", you need a laying array. :-)
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 29, 2017, 06:55:51 pm
I dont think that such box exists that is not huge and heavy. Especially if we are talking one box per side solution.
Even if that is 3 splayed boxes, you gain better coverage, not getting louder over distance.
So, basically if you want small, portable, "long throw", you need a laying array. :-)
It depends on what you call "small, portable"

Is that the total size/weight?  Or individual boxes?

The truck only cares about cubic volume and weight-not how many boxes there are.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 29, 2017, 07:02:04 pm
It depends on what you call "small, portable"

Is that the total size/weight?  Or individual boxes?

The truck only cares about cubic volume and weight-not how many boxes there are.

The Danley Matterhorn is portable; small is one of those eye of the beholder things.  Considering the huge pile of boxes it would take to approximate its performance, I'd call it "compact". ;)
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Kemper Watson on May 29, 2017, 07:42:53 pm
The Danley Matterhorn is portable; small is one of those eye of the beholder things.  Considering the huge pile of boxes it would take to approximate its performance, I'd call it "compact". ;)

I've stood in the Matterhorn. I want one a side..
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Jeremy Young on May 29, 2017, 09:06:42 pm
Not to topic swerve or anything (too late) but I recently took possession of a pair of SM80's and got to fire them up over the weekend for the first time. 

I'll save the impressions for another thread another time, but on the topic of single number spec's, it was immediately apparent that they can get a whole lot louder than my EV ZXA5's. EV's spec sheet lists those cabinets as "133 dB peak" whereas the SM80's are listed as "134 dB peak".  So why the difference?

Of course, if you look closer at the spec sheets, the 133dB is half space on the EV cut sheet, and calculated; and the SM80's being a full range box I would assume are rated in full-space (more realistic to the intended use) and I would assume is also a measured number (not built on the hopes and dreams of a marketing department).

One day when my neighbours aren't having a backyard party I'll take some measurements of my findings in a more scientific manner to share.  I'm quite confident there's more than 1dB spread between these two boxes. 
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on May 30, 2017, 06:47:01 am
It depends on what you call "small, portable"

Is that the total size/weight?  Or individual boxes?

The truck only cares about cubic volume and weight-not how many boxes there are.

Something two people with a van can deploy without the use of forklift :-)

Not trying to negate the benefit of big point source boxes, just from a small operator point of view several smaller boxes are easier to deploy then one huge box.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 30, 2017, 07:36:47 am
Something two people with a van can deploy without the use of forklift :-)

Not trying to negate the benefit of big point source boxes, just from a small operator point of view several smaller boxes are easier to deploy then one huge box.
But if you are doing shows that could use the output of the larger boxes, then it would take quite a few of those "smaller boxes" to do the same job.

If the job is something for a few small line arrays, then there are smaller single source boxes that will do the same job.

Not every job requires the "big boys"
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Chris Hindle on May 30, 2017, 08:03:05 am

Of course, if you look closer at the spec sheets, the 133dB is half space on the EV cut sheet, and calculated; and the SM80's being a full range box I would assume are rated in full-space (more realistic to the intended use) and I would assume is also a measured number (not built on the hopes and dreams of a marketing department).

As Ivan himself would say, DON'T ASSUME.
If it's in full space, and measured, and they wanted you to know it, they would have said.
We all take Ivan and "the boys" to be the good guys, and they most certainly are.
But, look at the game they have to play with the rest of the audio world. A world that seems to forget to use the ears when shopping for new gear.
Chris.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Peter Morris on May 30, 2017, 09:33:08 am
Something two people with a van can deploy without the use of forklift :-)

Not trying to negate the benefit of big point source boxes, just from a small operator point of view several smaller boxes are easier to deploy then one huge box.

Exactly Marjan - There are very few boxes on the market designed with this in mind and it is what promoted my DIY mid-high project I posted on soundforums. Maximum SPL and sound quality from an easily deployed rig that fits in a van. Just slightly heavier than an SM80 but with significantly more output; at 100Hz 15dB more!

An example of some boxes with a similar concept is the TW audio's  T24n  http://www.twaudio.de/en/product/t-series/t24n-the-neoclassic/   ... review https://issuu.com/europ.a./docs/tw_audio_t24n_production_partner

and d&b V point http://www.dbaudio.com/en/systems/category/series/detail/loudspeakers/v-series/v10p-loudspeaker.html
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Peter Morris on May 30, 2017, 09:40:02 am
But if you are doing shows that could use the output of the larger boxes, then it would take quite a few of those "smaller boxes" to do the same job.


 ... and if your larger box needs a forklift and you don't have one, then the big box is useless. 
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on May 30, 2017, 01:44:08 pm

Next, because it is sealed, the driver does not move as much (excursion) as with a ported box-so the driver is not "flopping around".

Only below the port's tuning frequency. Over the range where the port is helping (a wider bandwidth than you might think - fire up Hornresp and have a look), cone excursion will be lower for a given SPL.

The rest of the post is fine. In theory, sealed boxes can go alllll the way down with enough EQ. In practice, that takes a lot of cone excursion and power input. For small shows, you might get away with pushing for 60Hz, taking the hit on maximum SPL as you noted.


FWIW, most 12-15" passive tops have their ports tuned around 50Hz, but they start rolling off around 100Hz. You can boost at or above the port tuning to get more LF extension, but there's always the headroom tradeoff.

Chris
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 30, 2017, 03:15:08 pm
Only below the port's tuning frequency. Over the range where the port is helping (a wider bandwidth than you might think - fire up Hornresp and have a look), cone excursion will be lower for a given SPL.

The rest of the post is fine. In theory, sealed boxes can go alllll the way down with enough EQ. In practice, that takes a lot of cone excursion and power input. For small shows, you might get away with pushing for 60Hz, taking the hit on maximum SPL as you noted.


FWIW, most 12-15" passive tops have their ports tuned around 50Hz, but they start rolling off around 100Hz. You can boost at or above the port tuning to get more LF extension, but there's always the headroom tradeoff.

Chris
Agreed, there are limits.

Everything is a tradeoff of some some sorts in some way.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Tom Danley on May 30, 2017, 04:04:17 pm
Something two people with a van can deploy without the use of forklift :-)

Not trying to negate the benefit of big point source boxes, just from a small operator point of view several smaller boxes are easier to deploy then one huge box.

Hi Marjan, all
I hear that “oh they are so large” pretty often and I have to admit, stuff is usually bigger in person than on my computer screen, but I also don’t think a lot of those folks grasp what they are looking at. 

Some of our boxes are large but remember they are based on a different philosophy than prevalent in sound now.     
This is aimed at getting the most sound possible from each box using horn loading and radiating as if they had one full range driver and NOT selling the most boxes possible for a given job or using an approach which wastes about half the potential acoustic power in self cancelation.   
I may not be able to lift a J-3 for example but I also couldn’t lift the 12 to 16 large format line array boxes it equals in output.  And it does so with far more uniform coverage and frequency response and larger working distance and less energy lost to the sides and rear.                                                                                                   

So yes even a j3 is big but it’s also way smaller and lighter with better pattern control than what they usually replace in stadiums etc and sounds more like a studio monitor doing it and still does in the wind.

Then when you get out to say 800+ feet like the far end of a 100,000+ seat stadium and the requirement is say 105A, that takes horsepower and even if you had a wall of array boxes to get the level and it would sonically fall apart long before that distance.
 
THAT is why we make “big speakers”, here is the Caleb (which has been rented out for temporary use out to 2500 feet) at my lab at 100m and a different one installed at about 800 feet (speaker is behind the Hawkeye in the scoreboard).  Pop on some headphones.
 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g61e95t8eve7gux/20160623090318.mts?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lyjf0p46163q4es/20140805175937.mts?dl=0

Here is a much smaller system, I think only about 60,000 seats using the J-3’s, the one more like a big line array and J-4’s aimed at the far end to get more upper end there.   You can kind of make out the speaker in the scoreboards.  This is more like only 500-600 feet away
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lqeg3cf0daqv9ti/20120726114748.mts?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tnsw5mb4v5vdlwq/20120726122124.mts?dl=0

When the speaker system radiates as a single source, there is no interference pattern, the wind has much less effect on sound,  the spectral balance doesn’t change with position or distance AND to the degree one can make it constant directivity, then when you move off axis (out of or under the pattern), the SPL goes down but it sounds the same.    In the old video below Mike walks from under the pattern down field to the far end. An old demo below at a stadium that had a 3yr old concert array until this demo.  After the new system was installed, Clair bros who installed it measured + - 2dB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_usTlJi2NA

This is why we make big horns, the bigger the room, the worse the acoustics are, the more directivity you need, the more acoustic power you need, the more you need all of those, the more compromised in every single way the array of sources approach is, not to mention in a big system vastly it’s more expensive and power hungry.     So when you see a big “D” box, especially the J series, remember that while it’s big, for it’s size, it probably makes more sound than you imagine.
Best,
Tom
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on May 30, 2017, 05:13:24 pm
Hi Marjan, all
I hear that “oh they are so large” pretty often and I have to admit, stuff is usually bigger in person than on my computer screen, but I also don’t think a lot of those folks grasp what they are looking at. 


Best,
Tom

I think a lot of people grasp what they are looking at from a logistics perspective, namely if you can't lift it with a sensible number of people, it's too heavy.

Like today, we're setting up for a outdoor opera performance and the centre channel is two 6-box hangs of mid-size linearray cabs from a known manufacturer, suspended from a scaff tower in the middle of the set.

We needed to carry them there, so they we're a sensible choice.
If you go with one big box to replace all this you have, from a rental companys perspective, placed all your eggs in one basket and have to say no to jobs like this because you can't get the PA into position.

Having a "one size-box" is not very sensible for a lot of people with changing work conditions/locations.

 
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on May 30, 2017, 06:16:48 pm
it almost seems like a qualifier needs to be stated whenever we talk about speakers....

here's my stab...... "Given this rigging, and this manpower, what are the optimal power contenders for this coverage pattern.........?"


I mean this thread started out looking for lounge-level, horn loaded, high spl boxes....SOS, or maybe on small lifts, ...probably trap kinda boxes ..

And then it moves to L-arrays and large co-entrant horns....not sure why, or even how they are relevant....
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Tom Danley on May 30, 2017, 06:59:41 pm
I think a lot of people grasp what they are looking at from a logistics perspective, namely if you can't lift it with a sensible number of people, it's too heavy.

Like today, we're setting up for a outdoor opera performance and the centre channel is two 6-box hangs of mid-size linearray cabs from a known manufacturer, suspended from a scaff tower in the middle of the set.

We needed to carry them there, so they we're a sensible choice.
If you go with one big box to replace all this you have, from a rental companys perspective, placed all your eggs in one basket and have to say no to jobs like this because you can't get the PA into position.

Having a "one size-box" is not very sensible for a lot of people with changing work conditions/locations.

Well you can’t beat that instance, if you have to carry them one at a time by hand.   

Most folks put sets of boxes on carts in which each cart full often weigh as much or more and keep in mind you’re talking about a speaker strong enough to fill foot ball stadiums to the far end with just a few.

“If you go with one big box to replace all this you have, from a rental companys perspective, placed all your eggs in one basket and have to say no to jobs like this because you can't get the PA into position.”

Well if one were to go this route, for mains they would need probably three different sets of speakers and some fills to cover from the largest to the smallest use and use the volume control to scale the output to what’s needed.  I think Ivan has looked at this in some detail and in total it’s considerably smaller than one big array system.

So far this ignores the fact that they sound much clearer which is very important in large scales sound like stadiums, Disney etc …….BUT ARE NOT on any riders.   
There are some folks in Europe that have tried them and are starting to be used for live sound over there.  Here is a review from 5 years ago at a classical performance using a J-1, somewhat less powerful than a J-3 but has a subwoofer built in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkrZplo9xgM

Maybe this puts it in better perspective
Best
Tom
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on May 30, 2017, 07:43:53 pm
Tom, dont get me wrong, i admire your work and you are one of a very few people in this business that i truly have unreserved respect for.
But you need to understand that most often people on the road are challenged in logistics way and they must compromise.
No need to debate the sound difference between a good point source and a line array. This is a question of practicality and logistics. Two people can easy deploy 16 per side of any line array box you can think of. But they will never be able to deploy your big horns. I can send two guys with a van and they can set 8 line array per side and some subs all by them self.
Especially in Europe logistic is more costly (gas is way more expensive then there) towns are like 15 centuries old and most things are happening in the old part of town. Infrastructure is different, streets way narrower. And so on. When i think harder, i dont think any rental company in 300 miles radius from me has a forklift.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 30, 2017, 08:35:13 pm

No need to debate the sound difference between a good point source and a line array. This is a question of practicality and logistics. Two people can easy deploy 16 per side of any line array box you can think of. But they will never be able to deploy your big horns. I can send two guys with a van and they can set 8 line array per side and some subs all by them self.
Especially in Europe logistic is more costly (gas is way more expensive then there) towns are like 15 centuries old and most things are happening in the old part of town. Infrastructure is different, streets way narrower. And so on. When i think harder, i dont think any rental company in 300 miles radius from me has a forklift.
But comparing a 8 element line array to a J series horn is not exactly.

You need to compare 16-20 large format line arrays to a J3-not 8 smaller ones.

For somebody needing a large system-the line arrays are not carried individually.  They are on a cart that is larger and weighs more than a J3.

With a hook in place, I can have a J3 wired and in the air in a less than a minute.

It also depends on the particular venue.  In most larger venues one person can push a J3 into place.

I don't see many venues that you need to carry 20 large format line arrays per side up steps.  Unless you have a lot of people.

In that case- there is no way 2 people are going to do that :)

For the smaller shows, there are cabinets that are smaller and lighter than the J3.  Those are the shows you are talking about-not the large shows.

A forklift is not much help on steps.  And since you don't need to actually lift the J3, it is not important.  Just push it in place-hook up the motor and plug in and go.  No lifting needed
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Mac Kerr on May 30, 2017, 08:43:24 pm
For somebody needing a large system-the line arrays are not carried individually.  They are on a cart that is larger and weighs more than a J3.

Generally yes, occasionally no. Recently in Hawaii we had stacked V-DOSC on 6' high biljax decks. On the load out we could not use the fork we used to stack them, so they had to be individually unstacked by hand and carried onto the 4' high stage and then to the ground and then 30' to the plywood roadway so we could roll them the 300' to the truck. Everything was individual V-DOSC dollies.

Mac
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 30, 2017, 08:52:47 pm
Generally yes, occasionally no. Recently in Hawaii we had stacked V-DOSC on 6' high biljax decks. On the load out we could not use the fork we used to stack them, so they had to be individually unstacked by hand and carried onto the 4' high stage and then to the ground and then 30' to the plywood roadway so we could roll them the 300' to the truck. Everything was individual V-DOSC dollies.

Mac
And there are exceptions all over the place.

I remember seeing one from a Beach Boys gig on a beach.

They had to carry everything down something like 200 or more steps zig zagging down the side of a cliff.

Then across plywood laid on the sand for hundreds of feet.

This included the full stage-with a top-PA-lights etc.  The consoles were PM5Ds.

I think it was for a 16 yr olds birthday party.

Yes-the daddy was not in the audio business.

A friend of mine was mixing monitors.  He carried his USB stick :)

He said it was a real bitch-but "for somebody else"-not his problem.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Peter Morris on May 30, 2017, 09:21:54 pm
Tom, dont get me wrong, i admire your work and you are one of a very few people in this business that i truly have unreserved respect for.
But you need to understand that most often people on the road are challenged in logistics way and they must compromise.
No need to debate the sound difference between a good point source and a line array. This is a question of practicality and logistics. Two people can easy deploy 16 per side of any line array box you can think of. But they will never be able to deploy your big horns. I can send two guys with a van and they can set 8 line array per side and some subs all by them self.
Especially in Europe logistic is more costly (gas is way more expensive then there) towns are like 15 centuries old and most things are happening in the old part of town. Infrastructure is different, streets way narrower. And so on. When i think harder, i dont think any rental company in 300 miles radius from me has a forklift.

Exactly, you nailed it again. For me in Australia its exactly like this despite our wide streets.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Mike Pyle on May 30, 2017, 09:54:22 pm
From a logistical standpoint, I would have been extremely pleased if the SM80F had been designed as a 4' high 100-ish lb box that was flat to 100 hz instead of 215 lbs and flat to 45 Hz.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 31, 2017, 01:28:31 am
From a logistical standpoint, I would have been extremely pleased if the SM80F had been designed as a 4' high 100-ish lb box that was flat to 100 hz instead of 215 lbs and flat to 45 Hz.
Some of us are playing with horns.  In my copious free time I am messing with these things.  You can read all you want however testing, modifying and retesting gives me context to appreciate this thread.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170531/d838e7a3a6e6c936d040fe083d2985fc.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170531/71027a9997bfc8f9b92c1a346ed6cdaf.jpg)

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Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Jeremy Young on May 31, 2017, 02:42:42 am
As Ivan himself would say, DON'T ASSUME.
If it's in full space, and measured, and they wanted you to know it, they would have said.
We all take Ivan and "the boys" to be the good guys, and they most certainly are.
But, look at the game they have to play with the rest of the audio world. A world that seems to forget to use the ears when shopping for new gear.
Chris.

For subs, sure I would expect a half space measurement. Even with the EV being marketed as a multi-use cabinet I can understand some monitor duty logic, and at least they disclosed the loading. My assumption was based on one of Ivan's own comments over here:
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,162770.0.html (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,162770.0.html)

Reply 42: "The difference is how they are measured.
Since the SM80F is a full range product, it was measured in whole space (speaker and mic up in the air a good bit).
The TH118s are subs-so they are measured in half space.

There is a 6dB difference there."

Not the exact same box, but pretty close for me to feel safe disclosing my assumptions. Anyway, without any real data to share my post was merely anecdotal. 

IIRC the old JBL SR-X bass bins were specified in whole space, always seemed odd to me. 
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 31, 2017, 07:04:22 am
From a logistical standpoint, I would have been extremely pleased if the SM80F had been designed as a 4' high 100-ish lb box that was flat to 100 hz instead of 215 lbs and flat to 45 Hz.
Of course, not all boxes are intended for portable applications.

Remember that the install market is a good bit larger than the portable/tour market.

The SM80F is one of those cabinets.  I agree it is not best for a main PA for a small/medium portable show.

It in intended more as a totally full range install cabinet that in many cases you would not need subs to go with it.

But it works great as a drum fill-sidefill-DJ monitor in which you don't have to lift it (at least not very high).

If you can come to Infocomm, you might find what you are looking for (wink wink nod nod).
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Randy Pence on May 31, 2017, 07:43:37 am
Tom, dont get me wrong, i admire your work and you are one of a very few people in this business that i truly have unreserved respect for.
But you need to understand that most often people on the road are challenged in logistics way and they must compromise.
No need to debate the sound difference between a good point source and a line array. This is a question of practicality and logistics. Two people can easy deploy 16 per side of any line array box you can think of. But they will never be able to deploy your big horns. I can send two guys with a van and they can set 8 line array per side and some subs all by them self.
Especially in Europe logistic is more costly (gas is way more expensive then there) towns are like 15 centuries old and most things are happening in the old part of town. Infrastructure is different, streets way narrower. And so on. When i think harder, i dont think any rental company in 300 miles radius from me has a forklift.

I live in Europe and while my city is only 800 years old, we do have plenty of cobblestones and narrow alleys.  It is true that a J1 wouldnt be very friendly to drag off a sprinter truck and roll through a few backyards, but there are plenty of smaller gigs and smaller boxes.  The time I helped out on a hockey arena gig, the providers line array boxes were all stacked 3-4 high on carts.  Back in the day, amp racks weighed hundreds (lbs or kilos, take your pic), as cable trunks still do. I've had to bring racks loaded with 3-4 crown ma5kvz amps up several flights of stairs with just another helper and plywood over the steps. The weight and volume of more array boxes and their subsequent amp and cabling needs negates any argument concerning fuel costs and logistical concerns
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Tom Danley on May 31, 2017, 10:11:56 am
I live in Europe and while my city is only 800 years old, we do have plenty of cobblestones and narrow alleys.  It is true that a J1 wouldnt be very friendly to drag off a sprinter truck and roll through a few backyards, but there are plenty of smaller gigs and smaller boxes.  The time I helped out on a hockey arena gig, the providers line array boxes were all stacked 3-4 high on carts.  Back in the day, amp racks weighed hundreds (lbs or kilos, take your pic), as cable trunks still do. I've had to bring racks loaded with 3-4 crown ma5kvz amps up several flights of stairs with just another helper and plywood over the steps. The weight and volume of more array boxes and their subsequent amp and cabling needs negates any argument concerning fuel costs and logistical concerns

Hi Randy
I see your point, America is pretty different so far as “space” and use of wheels to move heavy things but I would still question the perspective, keep in mind the lowest output J box, the J-1 you mentioned is used in a good number of 30,000 to 50,000 seat sports stadiums here, where only one or two are used with no subs.   So if that’s the kind of horse power you would need dragged up a path then yes it’s impractical but also way way more powerful than 6 boxes of any array and all the subs that would go with them to get into the 30’s while flown, with real hair you feel in a stadium.   That 1 box takes the place of a lot of boxes.  A fair comparison would be something a lot smaller, didn't go as low  and more equal in acoustic power.
 
For me and Ivan I guess too, it’s been kind of sad coming from Live sound, Ivan running a sound co and hearing what can be done on a  larger scale than concerts.  Strange for me being a horn  and transducer designer seeing what can be done with drivers and horns, from acoustic levitation and the Servodrive in the old days, the lab sub project here and dozens of horns since, it’s so clear you can make so much more sound with a lot less of everything with proper horns, why not use them to full advantage?
Especially when understanding words or musical articulation is desired, there is a direct well known and undeniable sonic penalty using “more sources” and less directivity seen in the Hopkins Stryker equation.
 
But this is not the way to sell the most boxes, amplifiers and processing per installation job or year or stroke the Church sound guys ego and is also precisely why one see’s big line arrays installed in Churches 60-80 feet deep etc.

This rule applies to live and installed sound when understanding words and / or musical articulation are desirable.

http://www.acousticworx.com/sound%20system%20design%20hopkins%20stryker%20formula.html

The direct field can be improved by
•   Increasing Q
•   Move the listener closer to the source
•   Increase absorption
•   Reduce the number of sources
•   Aim the loudspeakers at the listener

Note that by increasing "N" from 1 to 2 (sources) will also increase the level of the reverberant field by 3dB. Keep the number of loudspeakers to an absolute minimum in difficult acoustic environments.

These large horns have a much higher Q or directivity, spray much much less energy to the sides than large concert arrays which is quite visible as the Initial Time Gap modeled in EASE or other programs.
This single source horn approach uses the absolute minimum number “N” of sources and within each box, where here in addition,  what radiates from each box is as if it had one driver, N=1.
This N=1 single source approach preserves time information also, a single impulse in produces a single direct arrival impulse and not a cascade of impulses reflecting different source to ear distances.

YMMV
Tom.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Randy Pence on May 31, 2017, 04:07:20 pm
Hey Tom, the intent of my post was unfortunately misunderstood. Not sure if all the german here is eating away at my mother tongue, lol.  I completely agree with you and as one of your biggest fans in europe and partly responsible for a recent install here.

The differences in space between europe and the states is not that extreme.  Roads might be more narrow here so our tractor trailers might not be as wide, but Mercedes Benz Sprinters, or the equivalent vans from ford and iveco or vw easily move around respectable rigs to anywhere.  Super narrow streets are a nonstarter, because there would never be an event drawing low thousands of people if it is impossible to safely evacuate them, let alone the rest of what goes into doing an event.  Jerichos might be big and heavy, but so are pallets of drinks, and there always seems to be a pallet-jack around.  If anything, the efforts to throw speakers into an american pickup and maybe some sort of small trailer seem clunky in comparison.  Cargo vans, of course, have ramp options, and box trucks have lift gates.  At that point, anything with wheels can get unloaded, the van/truck doesnt care, and given all the other stuff that goes along for the ride, a large horn may not be the factor in fuel economy.

This is the lounge, of course, but even being the lounge, I've never worked any event where hundreds of feet of throw were to be covered by just a 2 person crew.  2 people are supposed to set up trussing, staging, lights, and audio?  Any 2 person gig I've ever done has only been for ground stacks or pole mounted speakers. Sm80s, 96s, 100s, 60s, sh46s, 69s, 50s, etc all fit this category.  Sh-96s are a bit more than I'd like to handle with a partner, but turbosound tms-3s are still in use in europe, and they weigh similar

2 People might not be able to handle SH-96s, but they weigh similar to turbosound tms-3s which are still in use in parts of europe. I've only handled the pg96 with a chain hoist indoors for a 18m/60ft throw, but have seen video where a pair of sh-96hos handle thousands of people outdoors at what I'd volume levels consistent with what might be desired for the OPs gig.  While indoors, I think these pg96 boxes handle techno music at proper volume levels (havent measured myself, but most likely at or above 105dbA) and they still have about 10dB of headroom.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on June 03, 2017, 06:17:32 pm
100s of feets of throw for a picnic in the park is way different as 100s of feet throw for a rock concert. And yes, small crew can do it.
Read the OP question carefully.
Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 03, 2017, 06:21:27 pm
100s of feets of throw for a picnic in the park is way different as 100s of feet throw for a rock concert. And yes, small crew can do it.
Read the OP question carefully.
And you don't need Jerichos for a picnic in a park either-smaller/lighter boxes will do it just fine.

Title: Re: Recommend some horn loaded long throw boxes
Post by: eric lenasbunt on June 03, 2017, 10:23:40 pm
From my inventory 3/side JBL VT4886 on long throw settings up 13-15' on crank lifts would get it done. Not rock concert volumes, but picnic in the park for sure


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