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Title: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: RichardStringer on May 09, 2017, 04:46:08 am
I've got four Wharfedale Delta 218 dual 18" subs and am going to soon power them Proline 3000 amplifiers because I know those amplifiers have a brilliant reputation here in the UK for being able to output their rated power all night long. Anyway the subs are rated at being able to handle 1,600 watts continuous average power and I was wondering if a pair of Yamaha DSR115 cabs would keep up with them spl wise. About 1,500-1,800 is absolutely the most I can afford, I was looking at a pair of used Nexo PS15 cabs (used they're about 1,000 a pair here in the UK) but people who've used them many times and even people who own them say they're damn loud but not great for dance music even using the Nexo PS15 controllers as the sound has quite a gap in the mid frequency.

My other idea was to find a pair of 15" 2-way cabs like the Wharfedale Delta 15 or Citronic CX5008 and load them with RCF MB15N401 driers and RCF 1.4" exit compression drivers and running the cabs bi-amped without the passive crossovers in them, i've modelled them in WinISD software and all looks good.
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: Jeff Bankston on May 09, 2017, 05:22:28 am
I prefer 12" mids and 2" horns with 18" woofys. 15" isnt going to be as good in the mid as 12" and you dont need 15's when you have 18's. I dont use them myself but if I were in your place I would use the JBX SRX 722 or something similar, 12 and a horn.
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: RichardStringer on May 09, 2017, 07:03:44 am
I prefer 12" mids and 2" horns with 18" woofys. 15" isnt going to be as good in the mid as 12" and you dont need 15's when you have 18's. I dont use them myself but if I were in your place I would use the JBX SRX 722 or something similar, 12 and a horn.

JBL SRX722 here in the UK are amazingly rare so there's pretty much no chance of finding those in fact i've never seen any used in the past 5 years so...

I do prefer 12" cabs as well but I figured 15" cabs are bigger and have more chance of having a 1.4-2" compression than 12" cabs have. Most 12" cabs though are very small and so I doubt a 1,000 watts continuous rated RCF 12" driver would be suitable at all for the enclosures, plus most 12" cabs have only 1" compression drivers.
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on May 09, 2017, 07:17:30 am
Might be worth looking for some old EV Deltamax and replacing the midbass. That compression driver is a force to be reckoned with. Not light, though.

Chris
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: RichardStringer on May 09, 2017, 09:17:52 am
Might be worth looking for some old EV Deltamax and replacing the midbass. That compression driver is a force to be reckoned with. Not light, though.

Chris

Those Deltamax cabs are amazingly hard to find here in the UK, although there is a pair of EV Xi1152/64 cabs here for sale used for 1,600 a pair.
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: Dave Pluke on May 09, 2017, 12:42:22 pm
You haven't mentioned your application, which could impact recommendations.  What source material?  What types of venues?

Large format HF drivers are not cheap - period.  That's why most Prosumer level stuff uses 1" exit horns.  Older JBL and EV models had 2" throats, but their designs don't hold up well against newer technology.  Three-way models can get away with 1" throat drivers.  If you're sticking with 2-way, I second Jeff's comment re: 12" mids (see Clair R2T as an example).

Rather than those of us on this side of the pond taking shots in the dark, why don't you mention what Brands are readily available to you in the UK?

Dave
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: RichardStringer on May 09, 2017, 01:29:59 pm
You haven't mentioned your application, which could impact recommendations.  What source material?  What types of venues?

Large format HF drivers are not cheap - period.  That's why most Prosumer level stuff uses 1" exit horns.  Older JBL and EV models had 2" throats, but their designs don't hold up well against newer technology.  Three-way models can get away with 1" throat drivers.  If you're sticking with 2-way, I second Jeff's comment re: 12" mids (see Clair R2T as an example).

Rather than those of us on this side of the pond taking shots in the dark, why don't you mention what Brands are readily available to you in the UK?

Dave

Ok well the main place is is a small wine bar which is gonna let me do events there, the top room is about 15ft x 60ft and the bottom basement is about the same. Source material is dj's using turntables and Native Instruments Traktor Scratch software with timecoded vinyl to play tracks off the laptop, it'll be drum & bass and techno.

Brands over here in the UK are EV, JBL, Peavey, LD Systems (I was looking at their Stinger 15HP which has 2" throat compression drivers and 4" voice coile low frequency 15" drivers). Used speakers wise there's not a great deal to find here, some JBL SRX725 cabs come up time to time for about 1,500 a pair (British pounds not US dollars), there's some Nexo PS15 cabs come up too but people have told me they're not great for dance music due to them having a kind of midrange sound that sounds as though it's coming out the back of the cabinet even using the controller. There's a pair of EV Xi1152/64 cabs used at the moment for 1,650 a pair.

There's a hell of a lot of midrange powered cabs here new these days, I have a pair of FBT X-ite 12A cabs for dj monitors which sound lovely, the quality of sound is excellent but they're no way loud enough for front of house. There's EV TX-2152 cabs new here in the UK but they're 1,100 each and I believe do have quite a muddy midrange sound to them.

That's about all I can find. There's RCF cabs new too but even the Art745A are 1,100 each, there's Yamaha DSR115 cabs at 980 each new, people say they're pretty damn loud. My absolute limit that I can possibly scrape together is 1,800 for a pair of mid/high cabs.
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on May 09, 2017, 04:09:22 pm
Speak to a store about dropping you a 10% discount on the DSR115s and be done with it. You will need tons more sub's that tops for your needs.

Not likeing that a speaker has a "mid range sound" isn't a valuable opinion since a little bit if smiley face eq will make it sound just like you want...
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: Don T. Williams on May 09, 2017, 04:32:56 pm
The EV Xi1152 are very good sounding due the RMD (Ring Mode Decoupling).  It makes the 15 sound as good in the upper mids as most 12" cabinets, and it has a large format driver.  But . . . you need to use the DSP settings that EV suggests or they will not sound good.  This requires a separate processor or an amp with DSP.  They are heavy too!
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: David Winners on May 09, 2017, 05:56:54 pm
A pair of EV QRx112/75 would get it done if you biamped them. You can get DSP settings from EV and they get pretty loud pretty clean.
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on May 09, 2017, 07:08:51 pm
Some 12 inch tops with 1 inch hf can take all a Powersoft k10 can give. So dont generalize.
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on May 10, 2017, 03:39:09 am
Some 12 inch tops with 1 inch hf can take all a Powersoft k10 can give. So dont generalize.

A bridged Powersoft K10 (since we're using all it can give) will do 8KW into 8ohm and 12KW into 4ohm. RCF's top-of-the-line 12" midbass has a 4" voicecoil and a lot of venting, and is rated for 1KW long-term. I might give it 2KW if I wanted some headroom, but there's no way I'd put an 8KW amplifier on it.

Chris
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: RichardStringer on May 10, 2017, 03:42:04 am
The EV Xi1152 are very good sounding due the RMD (Ring Mode Decoupling).  It makes the 15 sound as good in the upper mids as most 12" cabinets, and it has a large format driver.  But . . . you need to use the DSP settings that EV suggests or they will not sound good.  This requires a separate processor or an amp with DSP.  They are heavy too!

Are those cabs loud enough then to keep up spl wise with 4 double 18" subs?


Jean-Pierre Coetzee.....
I love when a speaker has a flat frequency response but the PS15 are said to have a midrange sound that sounds as thouhg vocals etc...are coming out the back of the box. I know Nexo Alpha series has a flat frequency response it's a beautiful sound, loud, not ear piercing at all and just excellent i've heard those cabs myself many times.
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: RichardStringer on May 10, 2017, 03:49:28 am
Some 12 inch tops with 1 inch hf can take all a Powersoft k10 can give. So dont generalize.

I think you're probably talking about speaker cabinets which costs absolutely thousands and thousands per cab and obviously you know my budget because i've mentioned it so you should know that I meant 12" 2-way cabs in my budget range.
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: RichardStringer on May 10, 2017, 03:52:52 am
A pair of EV QRx112/75 would get it done if you biamped them. You can get DSP settings from EV and they get pretty loud pretty clean.

A single pair would be loud enough? I used to have a pair years ago of Qrx212 cabs and they were loud but they nicely kept up with a pair of double 18" subs I had back then, no offence but I don't see how a pair of Qex112/75 cabs could keep up spl wise. I don't mean anything bad by that with you mentioning they'd be loud enough so please don't think I do. I appreciate all the help people give me. I don't like the subs to massively overpower the mid/high frequency cabs like I know a lot of people do I like to be able to run the system full blast (without clipping of course)
 but to have a nicely balanced system.
 :)
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: Geert Friedhof on May 10, 2017, 06:14:50 am
You probably can't find a new pair of cabinets in your pricerange that does all you want it to do. Maybe second hand?
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: RichardStringer on May 10, 2017, 07:05:43 am
You probably can't find a new pair of cabinets in your pricerange that does all you want it to do. Maybe second hand?

I have in the past seen used Turbosound TQ440 cabs for about 1,000 do you think a pair of thoae woll be loud enough?
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: David Winners on May 10, 2017, 07:41:00 am
A single pair would be loud enough? I used to have a pair years ago of Qrx212 cabs and they were loud but they nicely kept up with a pair of double 18" subs I had back then, no offence but I don't see how a pair of Qex112/75 cabs could keep up spl wise. I don't mean anything bad by that with you mentioning they'd be loud enough so please don't think I do. I appreciate all the help people give me. I don't like the subs to massively overpower the mid/high frequency cabs like I know a lot of people do I like to be able to run the system full blast (without clipping of course)
 but to have a nicely balanced system.
 :)

In a 15x60 room, you could hit about 105 db at the back of the room.109 db with the 212/75.

What are your spl requirements? Did you biamp the 212/75 when you had them?

At the advice of some forum members here I switched to biamping my QRx cabinets and it made a huge difference in SQ and SPL.
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: RichardStringer on May 10, 2017, 08:57:47 am
In a 15x60 room, you could hit about 105 db at the back of the room.109 db with the 212/75.

What are your spl requirements? Did you biamp the 212/75 when you had them?

At the advice of some forum members here I switched to biamping my QRx cabinets and it made a huge difference in SQ and SPL.

No I ran them in passive mode, how much difference can it really make though in real world terms with dance music which is very highly compressed? I play techno so have to really power my subs around their continuous rated power due to the small crest factor of techno, it'd be the same with mid/high cabs wouldn't it so surely if I ran them passive or bi-amped i'd surely not get much more spl out of them, not a noticeable amount I wouldn't think.
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: David Winners on May 10, 2017, 09:52:31 am
How much difference can anything make?  I already stated that IMO it made a huge difference in SQ and SPL both.  I haven't measured the results, but I now have plenty of headroom in the size rooms you are playing with 2 bridged QSC PLX1602 running the 112/75 cabinets with EV suggested DSP settings.

I run sound for live bands so our requirements are different.  How loud do you need it to be?  That is where you should start when finding the right tool for the job. 

I need ### db SPL @ # weighting @ ## distance.  Then you can work backwards to see if a particular speaker will work for your intended application. Then all you have to do is wade through the inflated specs on most speakers and determine how well they will actually perform in your given situation. Most MI or ProSumer boxes in a given price range will perform in a similar manner.

Considering your budget, you are going to have a hard time meeting your expectations IMO.  Big boy rigs come with big boy price tags. If your time isn't worth anything and you have some woodworking chops, build a Peter Morris DIY 90 cabinet, or 2 60 deg cabinets.  That will run you around $1000 each IIRC, plus amps and processing to take advantage of what they can really do. 

FWIW, I'm just a lounge level guy with little experience compared to others around here.  Just giving you my opinion on what I use regularly and how I came to the decision on what to purchase for my needs.
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: RichardStringer on May 10, 2017, 11:20:18 am

Considering your budget, you are going to have a hard time meeting your expectations IMO.  Big boy rigs come with big boy price tags.

Ok I guess i'm screwed then, thanks anyway.
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: Dave Pluke on May 10, 2017, 08:45:45 pm
I have in the past seen used Turbosound TQ440 cabs for about 1,000 do you think a pair of thoae woll be loud enough?

So much depends on your particular situation.  It's difficult to make any accurate predictions.  That said, the specs say: "Maximum SPL (peak) measured with music program at stated amplifier power shall be 137dB." , which is pretty darn loud.

Will 60 degree horizontal coverage (per cabinet) be sufficient?

Dave
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 10, 2017, 08:51:00 pm
How loud do you need it to be?  That is where you should start when finding the right tool for the job. 

I need ### db SPL @ # weighting @ ## distance.  Then you can work backwards to see if a particular speaker will work for your intended application. Then all you have to do is wade through the inflated specs on most speakers and determine how well they will actually perform in your given situation.
And when "doing the math" don't forget to add (subtract-depending on how you look at it) 15-20dB for dynamic range.

DO NOT expect a loudspeaker rated for 130dB peak @ 1M to be able to read that 130dB at 1M with music with a normal SPL meter.

With "canned music" it will typically be 10-15dB below that.  Live typically requires a wider dynamic range
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 10, 2017, 09:40:39 pm
Some 12 inch tops with 1 inch hf can take all a Powersoft k10 can give. So dont generalize.

Yeah, you can warm your hands on cold night with them....

I'd rather have a low distortion, high efficiency loudspeaker system than a glorified space heater, but I'm kind of old fashioned that way.
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: RichardStringer on May 11, 2017, 03:38:01 am
And when "doing the math" don't forget to add (subtract-depending on how you look at it) 15-20dB for dynamic range.

DO NOT expect a loudspeaker rated for 130dB peak @ 1M to be able to read that 130dB at 1M with music with a normal SPL meter.

With "canned music" it will typically be 10-15dB below that.  Live typically requires a wider dynamic range

I play dance music not live music though, techno to be precise but thanks, yeah I have noticed in the past that with my old Class 2 spl meter I used to have it measured about 12-15db below what I thought it might.
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: Randy Pence on May 11, 2017, 06:02:06 pm
And when "doing the math" don't forget to add (subtract-depending on how you look at it) 15-20dB for dynamic range.

DO NOT expect a loudspeaker rated for 130dB peak @ 1M to be able to read that 130dB at 1M with music with a normal SPL meter.

With "canned music" it will typically be 10-15dB below that.  Live typically requires a wider dynamic range

not to mention calculated peaks..
Title: Re: Mid/highs to use with 4 dual 18" subs
Post by: Don T. Williams on May 12, 2017, 05:09:19 pm
Are those cabs loud enough then to keep up spl wise with 4 double 18" subs?

The best answer is "it depends".  I know your have already seen discussion about that. 

I have not used the subs you have, but my experience with other Warfedale Pro speakers indicates to me that the are prosumer products at best.  I could be wrong about the models you have, but with good amps, DSP settings, and bi-amped properly, this is a serious loudspeaker for it's size.  My guess is "yes", it should keep up.