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Title: 2 way radios
Post by: Jason Raboin on May 05, 2017, 08:44:37 am
Hi,

If you were buying 2 way radios today, what would you get?  I have a quote from Bearcom for Motorola BC130 and Motorola CP200D.  The BC130 are almost half the price.  This is for a sound company for touring, festivals, etc. 
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Tim Hite on May 05, 2017, 11:39:42 am
As long as you're asking, is there a good resource for info on using such radios? It's my impression that these fall outside of the Amateur radio spectrum and don't require a license.

Hi,

If you were buying 2 way radios today, what would you get?  I have a quote from Bearcom for Motorola BC130 and Motorola CP200D.  The BC130 are almost half the price.  This is for a sound company for touring, festivals, etc.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 05, 2017, 12:37:36 pm
Henry Cohen will chime in on this.

We've got the Motorola CP200s, and they're great. We got them in the UHF band (440-470MHz) and they //do// require a license from the FCC. "Land Mobile," I think the classification was. Any reputable dealer will not program your radios unless you show them your license. [I say that because there are plenty of disreputable dealers who are all "Hey, we'll program these for free!" and they're not worried about the licensing. Why not? Because they're not the ones using them... *you* are the one who will face fines if you're caught using radios in a frequency band that you are not licensed to use.]

Since the licensing process was relatively simple and fairly cheap, I wouldn't recommend skipping that part of the process.

-Ray
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on May 05, 2017, 12:47:50 pm
I have some CP200d's on loan for demo right now.  They are capable of either 136-174 Mhz or 403-470 Mhz-both of which include Amatuer bands as well as various services requiring a license. 

So, as always, "it depends" on how they are programmed as to if and what licenses are required.

There is a table you can download here:

https://www.fcc.gov/engineering-technology/policy-and-rules-division/radio-spectrum-allocation/general/table-frequency#block-menu-block-4

The FCC is a good place to start :).
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Tim Hite on May 05, 2017, 05:34:15 pm
. . .

Since the licensing process was relatively simple and fairly cheap, I wouldn't recommend skipping that part of the process.

-Ray

Ray,

Did you go get your license on your own or did you have a vendor do it for you? I just spoke to Bearcom and they wanted to handle it for me said I can't do it on my own. Seems strange.

I already have an FRN, but what class of license do I need to apply for?

Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Shawn Keck on May 05, 2017, 09:21:42 pm
CP200's are the SM58's of the radio world...dependable workhorses.

That is what we use after going through several brands.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Bob Vaughan on May 06, 2017, 12:10:12 am
Ray,

Did you go get your license on your own or did you have a vendor do it for you? I just spoke to Bearcom and they wanted to handle it for me said I can't do it on my own. Seems strange.

I already have an FRN, but what class of license do I need to apply for?

It is possible to do it yourself if you are simply applying for the standard itinerant frequencies, with no repeaters, or fixed stations. It may even be possible to license a portable repeater on those frequencies.

For anything else, you need to work through a frequency coordinator, of which here are several. Some are more expensive than others. I wouldn't go through bearcom.  The forest products frequency coordinator is probably the least expensive.

Once you get a license, you will be inundated with mail from several companies that will happily file routine paperwork for you, for large fees. Glance at them to see if you have forgotten to file something, and then recycle the junk mail. The most important is the buildout notification, which is basically to tell the FCC that you have constructed the system.

There is one service that many people forget about, that does not require a license, which is MURS. 5 channels on VHF, limited to 2w.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Chris Eddison on May 06, 2017, 03:36:23 am
At the day job (regional airport - radio communications & navigation aids) we have a very large stock of Hytera radios. They're a cheaper brand but have been remarkably good. Our numbers of broken radios coming back to us have nosedived since we got them. There have been a few with a filter capacitor that fails (giving a permanent receive light and they won't TX or RX and a small handful with stripped aerial threads (because who doesn't like fiddling with their radio aerial.....). Compared to the Kenwood and Motorola's we've owned before though they've been very good (apart from the Kenwood TK350 - they were indestructable!).
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 06, 2017, 04:39:12 am
As long as you're asking, is there a good resource for info on using such radios? It's my impression that these fall outside of the Amateur radio spectrum and don't require a license.

Amateur radio is just that.  You can't use amateur frequencies, even with a ham ticket, for commercial use.

The problem with the MURS frequencies is they get fairly crowded and nobody wants to monitor a shared frequency before they transmit, you just can't train users to do it.  Getting a nationwide coordinated channel, even narrow band is probably a tricky venture.

As mentioned Henry is an encyclopedia of RF knowledge and I hope he chimes in as Part 90, the FCC rules that will more than likely govern the operations we are talking about have gotten very complicated.

Ray - What region did you get you frequencies coordinated.

Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on May 06, 2017, 07:50:38 pm
FWIW, the quote proposal I received on the CP200s included $500 or so to set up our license.  I have/am considering going to the web for the radios-but then I am looking at $250 or so for software and programming, plus I still have a license fee.

Pros and cons to each method-and individual circumstances affect the value of your time-but those are the costs I have found so far.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 07, 2017, 01:44:53 am
Ray,

Did you go get your license on your own or did you have a vendor do it for you? I just spoke to Bearcom and they wanted to handle it for me said I can't do it on my own. Seems strange.

I already have an FRN, but what class of license do I need to apply for?
Not wanting to dump a bunch of people asking for help on his lap........... but Henry helped me get my appropriate license setup. I just paid the fee to the FCC; I don't remember what that was, though, because it was a couple three years ago (and I barely remember last week... ;) ).

Ray - What region did you get you frequencies coordinated?
To be candid, I'd have to ask Henry. He put in the best options for me, in his experience.

-Ray
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Henry Cohen on May 07, 2017, 07:46:40 pm
First to the topic of which radio: Presuming one is looking for a fairly durable unit with high reliability, the Motorola CP200d (and the discontinued CP200) are quite prevalent in the entertainment and A/V markets with lots of inventory at radio rental houses. The other Motorola product at this price/performance/size in widespread use is the XPR3000 series, with the 3500 having a display. Both are solid performers but you will pay a premium for the batwing.

If you're not hung up on buying the big M, The Hytera DMR (digital mobile radio) line, specifically the PD5, PD6 and PD7 series, are every bit the Motorola equivalent at about two thirds the price. Even the lower tier PD4 is quite a good radio at a very nice price point (we just put 150 into our rental inventory for those who want a smaller radio). Further, as long as a DMR radio is programmed with standard DMR channels, different brands can talk to each other in digital mode. Only Tier II pseudo-trunking and advanced encryption are proprietary to each brand.

In addition to Hytera and Motorola, other good DMR radios are manufactured by Tait (expensive and very good), Klein (under the Black Box" brand; inexpensive and uses cheap microphone, speaker and analog audio amp) and Vertex (also doesn't sound very good due to cheaper analog audio component choices).

Kenwood and Icom offer excellent analog/digital radios as well, but they use the NXDN (FDMA) standard and thus incompatible with the DMR (TDMA) products mentioned above when in digital mode.

I'm concentrating on digital radio offerings, and DMR in particular for a few reasons: a) At this durability/performance/reliability level and expected ROI, you're looking at the same general pricing as an analog only radio; b) These radios provide the option of operating in either conventional analog mode or digital on a per channel basis, which means backward compatibility and compatibility with most of the available rental inventory; c) Digital radios offer a number of advantages in spectral efficiency, range, less susceptibility to co-channel interference, and channel loading.

With respect to licensing in the US, business uses in either VHF or UHF require a license, except for the VHF MURS frequencies, which is license by rule (except for foreign entities). The itinerant frequencies in either band require only a license, not FCC frequency coordination. If you want more frequencies than the five VHF or four UHF itinerant, you'll need to obtain frequencies from one of the FCC designated frequency coordinators for the business station class "IG". Someone mentioned Forest Industry Telecommunications (http://www.landmobile.com/); I'll second that recommendation. Nice group of folk with quite good pricing. They will handle both the coordination and license application/filing.

One last note regarding programming capability for radios. No reputable manufacturer makes their programming software available to the end user, unless it's a large entity with a dedicated compliance person/department (generally public safety and utilities). Motorola is particularly diligent about this, and has been since their advent of computer programmable radio equipment.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on May 08, 2017, 10:56:28 am
Henry,

Thank you for taking the time to chime in-your informatio was/is very helpful!
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Brian Adams on May 08, 2017, 04:32:22 pm
I have 6 Motorola RMU2050's, which are MURS radios, and I purchased these based on a friend's recommendation who had good results with them in a small theatre. On my first show out with them they were barely adequate. They just don't have the range I need for outdoor shows and the earpiece is fairly quiet. I haven't been able to sell them so I still occasionally use them for small theatre shows, but I certainly wouldn't buy anything like them again.

If your shows are anything like mine I would absolutely recommend something higher wattage, which is going to require a license. I've had good results with Motorola RDU4100's, which is a 4 watt UHF radio. During rock shows I wish it had a little more volume out of the earpiece, but that would be my only real complaint with that radio in particular. They're a lot louder than my RMU2050's. In general I think I'd be comfortable with anything in the 4-5 watt range, but the RDU4100's are good enough for me for now.

I'm going to look into Henry Cohen's recommendations for my next round of radios. It's safe to say he knows a lot more than me about RF, and probably a lot of other things too!
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: augie propersi on May 09, 2017, 09:46:38 am
I am sticking with my analog Motorola HT1250/750 as long as we can, even though they are discontinued, analog = no delay good sound quality, repairable and there are lots of them around used & new,

Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Steve Ferreira on May 09, 2017, 11:38:33 am
We decided that the upkeep and everything else that comes with radios was too much for us. We just cross rent now from a dedicated two way radio company. They pay for all the licenses and maintain the units. Yes it's a bit of a drag that we have to go to them for pick up and drop off but the pros outweigh the cons for us.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Tim Hite on May 30, 2017, 10:40:01 am
First to the topic of which radio: Presuming one is looking . . .

Henry, thanks for getting me on track. Ray, thanks for sending Henry.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Tom Provenza on June 07, 2017, 09:33:08 pm
Even though Henry has hit most of the concerns, I will jump in with a couple comments (day job is with the big M). For use in audio production I would stick with UHF, In my experience VHF has always been more susceptible to coupling into audio circuitry in close proximity. Nothing worse than keying a radio and hearing a big thud through the system. 

Also a big DMR fan, which reminds me of another offender in audio systems- TDMA. Due to the nature of TDMA, it could also cause noticeable pulses as the transmitter cycles on and off (remember Nextel /iDEN?). Only an issue with DMR if using a repeater which would be uncommon in most production work

One last option worth mentioning is the 900Mhz spread spectrum radios. The Motorola DTR series, and I believe there may be another manufacturer as well. Very good range & performance, little chance of destructive interference and co-channel issues, and license free.



Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Henry Cohen on June 08, 2017, 05:30:50 pm
Even though Henry has hit most of the concerns, I will jump in with a couple comments (day job is with the big M). For use in audio production I would stick with UHF, In my experience VHF has always been more susceptible to coupling into audio circuitry in close proximity. Nothing worse than keying a radio and hearing a big thud through the system.

Agree with the UHF recommendation, but for a different reason: propagation. Given the typical venue and immediate surroundings, the shorter wavelengths tend to work better in hallways, tunnels, between floors, etc. With modern audio equipment design and manufacturing, RFI demodulation is far less a problem than it used to be. That said, keying any 4-5 watt radio anywhere near audio (or video) equipment, or low level copper signal cabling, is strongly discouraged. Radios assigned to FOH or monitor mixers should be set to low power (about 1 watt).


Quote
Also a big DMR fan, which reminds me of another offender in audio systems- TDMA. Due to the nature of TDMA, it could also cause noticeable pulses as the transmitter cycles on and off (remember Nextel /iDEN?). Only an issue with DMR if using a repeater which would be uncommon in most production work

Again, not the problem it used to be. The old GSM/TDMA protocol was actually cycling the transmitter in the radio or phone on and off, and it was the transmitter key up that was the primary source of the noise. With DMR, the transmitter is always on for the duration of the key press (or the carrier detect in the case of a repeater); the TDMA aspect here is the cycling between data streams for the two time slots.


Quote
One last option worth mentioning is the 900Mhz spread spectrum radios. The Motorola DTR series, and I believe there may be another manufacturer as well. Very good range & performance, little chance of destructive interference and co-channel issues, and license free.

The DTR 900MHz radio does eliminate the licensing issue, has terrific range and is overall a great radio but for the battery design IMO, a removable plastic cover and a cellphone style battery. The battery compartment door is too easily dropped, lost or broken. The only consideration is for any other 900-928MHz ISM equipment that might be on the event or installed in the venue: high power cordless phone system, machine-to-machine links (M2M for vending machines), HVAC remote control/monitoring, wireless DMX, rigging load cell monitoring, etc.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Tom Provenza on June 08, 2017, 09:40:08 pm
Thanks for your comments Henry, all good points, especially in the production environment.

However I will disagree with you on TDMA transmitter function. The DMR subscriber units do in fact cycle the transmitter if operating on a repeater, same as P25-P2. This allows the subscriber to actually receive data in between TX bursts which enables advanced features such as transmit interrupt. It also has led to manufacturers claiming increased battery life. If there was a constant carrier from the subscriber, there would be no way to utilize the opposite timeslot as there would be RF contention. The DMR repeaters do transmit constant carrier if active on one or both timeslots, or in hang time or beacon.  The same cycling also occurs in M's proprietary Dual capacity Direct mode.

I can't speak to what is happening in the cellular world & GSM

A little beyond the original intent of this thread, but figured i would clarify
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Henry Cohen on June 08, 2017, 11:44:55 pm

However I will disagree with you on TDMA transmitter function. The DMR subscriber units do in fact cycle the transmitter if operating on a repeater, same as P25-P2. This allows the subscriber to actually receive data in between TX bursts which enables advanced features such as transmit interrupt. It also has led to manufacturers claiming increased battery life. If there was a constant carrier from the subscriber, there would be no way to utilize the opposite timeslot as there would be RF contention. The DMR repeaters do transmit constant carrier if active on one or both timeslots, or in hang time or beacon.  The same cycling also occurs in M's proprietary Dual capacity Direct mode.

You are correct. I forgot that with a repeater the subscriber unit has to cycle the transmitter, as well as in dual direct mode. Thank you clarifying.

My experience has been that the DMR implementation of TDMA, along with improved audio equipment and practices, is less of a problem than the GSM TDMA. Then again, two-way radio subscriber units programmed only for conventional [digital] operation don't transmit a beacon at intervals the way phones do, so that tends to reduce the instances of RFI.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Andrew Broughton on June 09, 2017, 09:34:30 pm
The DTR 900MHz radio does eliminate the licensing issue, has terrific range and is overall a great radio but for the battery design IMO, a removable plastic cover and a cellphone style battery. The battery compartment door is too easily dropped, lost or broken. The only consideration is for any other 900-928MHz ISM equipment that might be on the event or installed in the venue: high power cordless phone system, machine-to-machine links (M2M for vending machines), HVAC remote control/monitoring, wireless DMX, rigging load cell monitoring, etc.
I have been using DTR radios for the past 4 years and have had no issues with the batteries or doors, but they have been in a controlled usage scenario. They have a range that is unbelievable for a 1 watt radio - easily outpacing the 4-watt CP200s they replaced. I honestly have never encountered a radio with the range that these things have. The free programming software and license-free operation along with their relatively low price and small size makes them a unique product for anyone interested in a digital radio system.
If anyone wants to know more about the DTR radios, my website (see my sig) has the most up to date and complete information available on the internet. I also have an inexpensive (previously enjoyed) turnkey touring package available for sale - contact me at my website if you're interested.

(Oh - I'm just changing hosts ATM, so if my website 404's you, feel free to PM me of course!)
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Mark Hannah on July 13, 2017, 07:07:18 pm
I'm concentrating on digital radio offerings, and DMR in particular for a few reasons: a) At this durability/performance/reliability level and expected ROI, you're looking at the same general pricing as an analog only radio; b) These radios provide the option of operating in either conventional analog mode or digital on a per channel basis, which means backward compatibility and compatibility with most of the available rental inventory; c) Digital radios offer a number of advantages in spectral efficiency, range, less susceptibility to co-channel interference, and channel loading.

I find the digital option on our CP200d almost unusable.  The sound quality is bad (no clarity through radio's speaker or remote speaker).  The latency is my biggest complaint.  I looked in the manual, but couldn't find what the expected latency should be.  What should I be expecting?
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Tom Provenza on July 13, 2017, 09:56:35 pm
I find the digital option on our CP200d almost unusable.  The sound quality is bad (no clarity through radio's speaker or remote speaker).  The latency is my biggest complaint.  I looked in the manual, but couldn't find what the expected latency should be.  What should I be expecting?

Are these radios simplex or is there network infrastructure involved? I would venture to say something is not right if it is as bad as you suggest. Most LMR users would have a hard time going back to analog after getting accustomed to the digital audio. There should be no audible latency to most users...although this group would be the exception  ::)
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Mark Hannah on July 14, 2017, 12:33:14 pm
Are these radios simplex or is there network infrastructure involved? I would venture to say something is not right if it is as bad as you suggest. Most LMR users would have a hard time going back to analog after getting accustomed to the digital audio. There should be no audible latency to most users...although this group would be the exception  ::)

They are simplex w/ no extra infrastructure.

If no one is around me and I'm communicating with another part of the venue area (for example, Monitors to FOH), then the latency doesn't bother me (just the audio quality).  If another radio is in audible range and I'm transmitting, then it is very distracting to me.  Less so if another person is transmitting, but still...

If people are curious and it helps me find out if I need to go back to the vendor/programmer, then I'll get a rough latency the next time I use the radios.  I'd rather not pull a guess out of no where.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Tom Provenza on July 14, 2017, 02:27:19 pm
They are simplex w/ no extra infrastructure.

If no one is around me and I'm communicating with another part of the venue area (for example, Monitors to FOH), then the latency doesn't bother me (just the audio quality).  If another radio is in audible range and I'm transmitting, then it is very distracting to me.  Less so if another person is transmitting, but still...

If people are curious and it helps me find out if I need to go back to the vendor/programmer, then I'll get a rough latency the next time I use the radios.  I'd rather not pull a guess out of no where.


If simplex, there is not much in the radio codeplug that could impact it.  this will probably come down to subjectiveness on both issues. I will pull out a few radios this weekend and see if I can come up with a delay measurement just for kicks. There is definitely delay inherent to the vocoding process but I never put much thought into it before.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: lindsay Dean on July 14, 2017, 02:40:11 pm
 I second the rdu 4100. tough as stainless steel nails.
 you also have a cloning function
once you program one you can set the lone master in one base set the other in the other base, easy cloning.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: David Lim on August 09, 2017, 05:11:41 pm
Hey guys, following this thread, as I'm looking for some radios also. Just want to make sure I have a few things correct:
1. Motorola DTR radios CAN'T work together with something like the CP200, correct? So buying a few DTRs and renting CP's for expanded tour crew would be a no-go, right?
2. If I go the UHF route, like a CP200 or the Hytera PD5, is there a limit to how many you have before you need a license? Or when you buy even 1, you need it?
3. Going through Forest Industries, for example, I could buy a license, but then I'd have to program myself?

Thanks!
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Rob Spence on August 09, 2017, 06:24:28 pm
Hey guys, following this thread, as I'm looking for some radios also. Just want to make sure I have a few things correct:
1. Motorola DTR radios CAN'T work together with something like the CP200, correct? So buying a few DTRs and renting CP's for expanded tour crew would be a no-go, right?
2. If I go the UHF route, like a CP200 or the Hytera PD5, is there a limit to how many you have before you need a license? Or when you buy even 1, you need it?
3. Going through Forest Industries, for example, I could buy a license, but then I'd have to program myself?

Thanks!

To answer #2

Depending on the frequency, you need a license to transmit. Period. You can listen without one. The number of units isn't important. In fact, you are likely only transmitting on one radio at any given time.

There are frequencies that do not need a license but they tend to be crowded and have very strict requirements for low transmit power.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Henry Cohen on August 09, 2017, 06:29:18 pm
Hey guys, following this thread, as I'm looking for some radios also. Just want to make sure I have a few things correct:
1. Motorola DTR radios CAN'T work together with something like the CP200, correct? So buying a few DTRs and renting CP's for expanded tour crew would be a no-go, right?
Correct.


Quote
2. If I go the UHF route, like a CP200 or the Hytera PD5, is there a limit to how many you have before you need a license? Or when you buy even 1, you need it?
Quantity is not relevant to the need for an FCC license. To operate business band two-way radios requires a license, whatever the quantity.


Quote
3. Going through Forest Industries, for example, I could buy a license, but then I'd have to program myself?
Either you could program the radios if you have the software and programming cable, or take the radios, along with a copy of your license, to your dealer or other radio shop for programming.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Henry Cohen on August 09, 2017, 06:32:38 pm
There are frequencies that do not need a license but they tend to be crowded and have very strict requirements for low transmit power.

Those frequencies are not available for business operations, only personal and family.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: David Lim on August 09, 2017, 07:03:44 pm
Great, thanks guys. Is there a distinct advantage to a UHF radio in a touring situation, vs something like a DTR410? Will the DTR be happy in a large hall or arena, going through concrete walls and floors?

I was wondering about licensing mainly because I'd probably purchase through Amazon, so they would then need to be programmed. To not have to worry about any of that would be helpful, but isn't imperative.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Henry Cohen on August 09, 2017, 07:15:12 pm
Great, thanks guys. Is there a distinct advantage to a UHF radio in a touring situation, vs something like a DTR410? Will the DTR be happy in a large hall or arena, going through concrete walls and floors?

I was wondering about licensing mainly because I'd probably purchase through Amazon, so they would then need to be programmed. To not have to worry about any of that would be helpful, but isn't imperative.

You'll find the DTR radios' performance in your scenarios to be excellent.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Ben Mehlman on August 17, 2017, 07:29:52 pm

Re radios and their prices:

Motorola.. and some others eg Kenwood, Vertex/Standard etc make excellent commercial radios which are FCC "type accepted" for operation on commercial frequencies in the USA.  Radios that are not "type accepted" for Part 90 are technically illegal for business use, regardless of any license you may have.  Of course, these radios cost quite a bit.. but you do get quality and legality.

But if you are on a budget or tend to work in situations where you can lose radios.. most Chinese import radios are not type accepted.. but there are some Part 90 type accepted Chinese import radios that are pretty good radios. 

These, when used on a frequency you are licensed to use, or when used on one of the license-free MURS VHF channels, are totally ok to use and will cost you as little as $30-$80 each.

For example the Puxing PX-777 VHF I believe is a part 90 radio, and MURS capable. 
The Baofeng UV-82C is as well.

Both these radios are known to be pretty good performers.  I have some experience with the PX-777.  The radio itself is solid, good audio, decent RF and AF performance.  My one complaint is that the charger base is a little hard to get to mate with the radio sometimes.  For $65 you'll be quite surprised at the quality you get.

The UV-82C is a dual band (UHF/VHF) radio, so you have flexibility there.  You can operate on your licensed UHF channel and also interoperate with other people on MURS channels (these channels are the old VHF color "dot" channels so there are tons of production radios out there that use them).  Or if you get a GMRS license ($75) you can operate them for personal use on those channels.  These radios also have a dual-listen feature where you can be having a conversation on one channel, while monitoring another.  For example, one channel for sound, another channel for event coordination, etc.  If you need to respond on the other channel, you can push a button and flip your transmitter over to it.

The other option that a dual band radio opens up, if you work very large events, is the possibility of setting up a temporary cross-band repeater, which is really the best way to go if you want to have range measured in miles.

If you are a little bit handy you can program them yourself and save on that cost as well (technically you are not supposed to do that.. but lots of people do).

And if you lose one.. well, for $30-80 it's not such a big deal...




Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Bob Vaughan on September 10, 2017, 05:40:08 am
I would steer clear of most of the chinese radios, but especially Baofeng.

The ARRL (the main amateur radio org in the US) has performed radio testing at many of the major amateur radio conventions for the last 5-6 years.

They test for compliance with FCC emissions standards, and have found that the major brands (Icom, Yaesu, Kenwood, Alinco, Motorola, etc) have a pass rate at or extremely close to 100%, however the chinese brands are somewhat worse.

Baofeng was by far the worst, at somewhere around 50% pass rate..

My personal feeling is that before a Baofeng radio is allowed to be placed in service anywhere, it must be tested for FCC compliance. If it fails, or is within the margin of error, it needs to have the battery removed for proper disposal, and then be placed on a concrete floor, and immediately receive extended percussive maintenance with a 5 pound sledge hammer.

A steam roller would be an acceptable maintenance alternative.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: John Fruits on September 10, 2017, 12:26:50 pm
If it fails, or is within the margin of error, it needs to have the battery removed for proper disposal, and then be placed on a concrete floor, and immediately receive extended percussive maintenance with a 5 pound sledge hammer.

A steam roller would be an acceptable maintenance alternative.
Would a surfeit of cloggers suffice, especially if they had tap shoes on and were clogging to Jan and Dean or the Beach boys?
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Bob Vaughan on September 10, 2017, 01:41:29 pm
Would a surfeit of cloggers suffice, especially if they had tap shoes on and were clogging to Jan and Dean or the Beach boys?

Absolutely.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: David Buckley on September 10, 2017, 04:59:36 pm
... most of the chinese radios... If it fails, or is within the margin of error, it needs to have the battery removed for proper disposal, and then be placed on a concrete floor, and immediately receive extended percussive maintenance with a 5 pound sledge hammer.

One of the advantages of some of the Chinese construction techniques is that that percussive maintenance need not be "extended", "brief" will accomplish the job to completion.  There are obvious manpower savings and productivity improvements to be had.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Jim Wilkens on September 21, 2017, 12:54:06 pm
We have CP200s and have recently added some SL300s to our inventory to satisfy some of or corporate meeting clients that want something small. I personally prefer the CP200s but the SL300s are simple to operate, have pretty good sound quality and are compatible with the analog CP200s.

Our dealer has told us that their film production rental clients will refuse anything other than CP200s including CP200Ds.

Jim W.

Hi,

If you were buying 2 way radios today, what would you get?  I have a quote from Bearcom for Motorola BC130 and Motorola CP200D.  The BC130 are almost half the price.  This is for a sound company for touring, festivals, etc.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on September 21, 2017, 04:57:11 pm
We're finally getting new radios for our building. Getting rid of the XTS2500s that we have been using for over a decade now. We're looking at the SL300 and the SL3500e radios since we have finally been given the green light by City Radio to move out of the 800MHz public safety band that the rest of the City uses.

We're supposed to get some demo units this week or next to test out. We're looking forward to having smaller, lighter radios that won't break your foot if they fall off your belt.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Tom Provenza on September 21, 2017, 09:16:49 pm
We're finally getting new radios for our building. Getting rid of the XTS2500s that we have been using for over a decade now. We're looking at the SL300 and the SL3500e radios since we have finally been given the green light by City Radio to move out of the 800MHz public safety band that the rest of the City uses.

We're supposed to get some demo units this week or next to test out. We're looking forward to having smaller, lighter radios that won't break your foot if they fall off your belt.

Yes, having a facility use resources on a public Safety system for on site coverage is pretty inefficient use of that spectrum, and a waste of money since you are tied to higher tier radios.

I see Radio Reference shows your facility using a 470 frequency. Is that accurate?

The SL300 is a slick little radio. The LED display imbedded in the front housing is great for low light conditions If you need that feature. If you go that route, I recommend the optional heavy duty swivel belt clip vs the standard holster that usually ships with it,
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on September 21, 2017, 09:51:09 pm
I see Radio Reference shows your facility using a 470 frequency. Is that accurate?
No. We haven't used anything on that frequency since I have been in the building, almost 9 years now. Up to this point, we've just used whatever the Police Radio Shop assigned to us, mostly because we didn't have to pay for it out of our operational budget.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Tim Hite on September 26, 2017, 01:47:10 pm
. . .

Our dealer has told us that their film production rental clients will refuse anything other than CP200s including CP200Ds.

. . .

I can confirm this as being absolutely true, due to the delay induced by the digital radios driving people batty on set when there are 50+ radios active and turned on full blast.

Found this out when I was discussing digital radios with a friend in location sound. He has 200+ CP200s in his rental inventory and not a single CP200D. . .he berated me for 10 minutes for even considering digital radios for production.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Henry Cohen on September 26, 2017, 03:46:01 pm
I can confirm this as being absolutely true, due to the delay induced by the digital radios driving people batty on set when there are 50+ radios active and turned on full blast.

Found this out when I was discussing digital radios with a friend in location sound. He has 200+ CP200s in his rental inventory and not a single CP200D. . .he berated me for 10 minutes for even considering digital radios for production.

What most folk fail to understand however is that all the current digital LMR radio offerings can be programmed to operate in analog mode on a channel by channel basis. Whereas the latency can exceed 200mS when operating in digital mode, that latency goes down to less than 3mS when programmed for analog operation. There numerous entertainment production radio rental houses that have thousands of digital radios in their inventory and simply program them for analog operation as requested by the client.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on October 05, 2017, 06:19:29 pm
We finally got our demo units: 2 Motorola SL300s and a Vertex EVX-S24. We like the Motorolas much better. We had one channel programmed for digital and another programmed for analog.

The analog channel is much easier to use and doesn't have the massive delay that the digital channel does. Also, the Motorolas have a much quieter end of transmission kerchunk than the Vertex does.

We're going to do some more testing tomorrow after we get a good full charge on them. But so far, we have been able to transmit and receive from the farthest reaches of our building and from areas that we have previously had problems with reliable transmission, like our underground engineering and HVAC areas.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Andrew Broughton on September 03, 2018, 06:07:08 pm
Does anyone make a "Quality" radio (quality level of Motorola or Kenwood Business Radio) that has the user-programmability of the Chinese radios?
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Russell Ault on September 03, 2018, 06:53:00 pm
Does anyone make a "Quality" radio (quality level of Motorola or Kenwood Business Radio) that has the user-programmability of the Chinese radios?

Kenwood, among others, makes some very high-quality user-programmable radios for the amateur service, but my impression was that part of the requirements for a radio to be certified for LMR use is that it isn't user programmable...

-Russ
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Henry Cohen on September 03, 2018, 07:18:03 pm
Kenwood, among others, makes some very high-quality user-programmable radios for the amateur service, but my impression was that part of the requirements for a radio to be certified for LMR use is that it isn't user programmable...

Correct; Part 90.203(e) & (g) rules forbid the end user (operator) from having the ability to program frequency or channel width.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Rob Spence on September 03, 2018, 08:40:28 pm
I have a bunch of Motorola vhf walkies. I bought a programming cable and a programming software program.

Probably would have been cheaper to take em to a shop and get em done.



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Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Andrew Broughton on September 03, 2018, 10:53:31 pm
Kenwood, among others, makes some very high-quality user-programmable radios for the amateur service, but my impression was that part of the requirements for a radio to be certified for LMR use is that it isn't user programmable...

-Russ
I mistakenly bought a Kenwood TH-D72, thinking it would be what I wanted. While it's a fine radio, for legal reasons, I believe, it doesn't allow ALL frequencies to be selected. The Chinese radios have no such limitations. There's millions of them, you'd think there'd be one brand that would want to stand out from the rest by building a bit of quality into the product...
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Russell Ault on September 03, 2018, 11:32:09 pm
I mistakenly bought a Kenwood TH-D72, thinking it would be what I wanted. While it's a fine radio, for legal reasons, I believe, it doesn't allow ANY frequency to be selected. The Chinese radios have no such limitations. There's millions of them, you'd think there'd be one brand that would want to stand out from the rest by building a bit of quality into the product...

I'd be surprised if it's for legal reasons (radios for the amateur service don't require certification because licensed amateurs are solely responsible for insuring that their radios are operating within the regulations); my guess is that using a relatively limited TX frequency range simplifies the hardware design (without making the radio any less useful to its intended market).

As I understand it, though, transmitting with a user-programmable radio (Chinese or otherwise) outside of the amateur service is illegal basically everywhere, even if you're using it in way that would otherwise comply with some other licensed usage.

-Russ
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Andrew Broughton on September 04, 2018, 12:39:29 pm
I'd be surprised if it's for legal reasons (radios for the amateur service don't require certification because licensed amateurs are solely responsible for insuring that their radios are operating within the regulations); my guess is that using a relatively limited TX frequency range simplifies the hardware design (without making the radio any less useful to its intended market).
It's not that. It specifically blocks out certain ranges while operating above and below those ranges. I was told it was for DOC/FCC certification/licensing/laws or somesuch.

Quote
As I understand it, though, transmitting with a user-programmable radio (Chinese or otherwise) outside of the amateur service is illegal basically everywhere, even if you're using it in way that would otherwise comply with some other licensed usage.
Of course. But there are millions of radios that do.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Henry Cohen on September 04, 2018, 10:07:13 pm
But there are millions of radios that do.

And if they do allow front panel programming of frequencies in any band other than Amateur, they are not FCC certified, are non-compliant, illegal to sell in the US and illegal to use, even if you did have a license for the actual frequency(ies) on which you're operating. Because they are not legal, not enough people will pay top dollar for a Motorola/Kenwood/Hytera/Tait quality product to make it profitable to manufacture, even given Chinese labor costs.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Andrew Broughton on September 05, 2018, 07:25:14 pm
And if they do allow front panel programming of frequencies in any band other than Amateur, they are not FCC certified, are non-compliant, illegal to sell in the US and illegal to use, even if you did have a license for the actual frequency(ies) on which you're operating. Because they are not legal, not enough people will pay top dollar for a Motorola/Kenwood/Hytera/Tait quality product to make it profitable to manufacture, even given Chinese labor costs.
Are you asserting that every vendor that sells a Baofeng or Retevis or any of the dozens of other Chinese brands that allow any frequency to be entered are breaking the law?
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Henry Cohen on September 05, 2018, 10:33:52 pm
Are you asserting that every vendor that sells a Baofeng or Retevis or any of the dozens of other Chinese brands that allow any frequency to be entered are breaking the law?

Yes.

47CFR §2.803    Marketing of radio frequency devices prior to equipment authorization.
      (a) Marketing, as used in this section, includes sale or lease, or offering for sale or lease, including advertising for sale or lease, or importation, shipment, or distribution for the purpose of selling or leasing or offering for sale or lease.
      (b) General rule. No person may market a radio frequency device unless:
      (1) For devices subject to authorization under certification, the device has been authorized in accordance with the rules in subpart J of this chapter and is properly identified and labeled as required by § 2.925 and other relevant sections in this chapter; or
      (2) For devices subject to authorization under verification or Declaration of Conformity in accordance with the rules in subpart J of this chapter, the device complies with all applicable technical, labeling, identification and administrative requirements; or
      (3) For devices that do not require a grant of equipment authorization under subpart J of this chapter but must comply with the specified technical standards prior to use, the device complies with all applicable, technical, labeling, identification and administrative requirements.
      (c) Exceptions. The following marketing activities are permitted prior to equipment authorization:
      (1) Activities under market trials conducted pursuant to subpart H of part 5.
      (2) Limited marketing is permitted, as described in the following text, for devices that could be authorized under the current rules; could be authorized under waivers of such rules that are in effect at the time of marketing; or could be authorized under rules that have been adopted by the Commission but that have not yet become effective. These devices may not be operated unless permitted by § 2.805.
      (i) Conditional sales contracts (including agreements to produce new devices manufactured in accordance with designated specifications) are permitted between manufacturers and wholesalers or retailers provided that delivery is made contingent upon compliance with the applicable equipment authorization and technical requirements.
      (ii) A radio frequency device that is in the conceptual, developmental, design or pre-production stage may be offered for sale solely to business, commercial, industrial, scientific or medical users (but not an offer for sale to other parties or to end users located in a residential environment) if the prospective buyer is advised in writing at the time of the offer for sale that the equipment is subject to the FCC rules and that the equipment will comply with the appropriate rules before delivery to the buyer or to centers of distribution.
      (iii) (A) A radio frequency device may be advertised or displayed, (e.g., at a trade show or exhibition) if accompanied by a conspicuous notice containing this language:
        This device has not been authorized as required by the rules of the Federal Communications Commission. This device is not, and may not be, offered for sale or lease, or sold or leased, until authorization is obtained.
      (B) If the device being displayed is a prototype of a device that has been properly authorized and the prototype, itself, is not authorized due to differences between the prototype and the authorized device, this language may be used instead: Prototype. Not for Sale.
      (iv) An evaluation kit as defined in § 2.1 may be sold provided that:
      (A) Sales are limited to product developers, software developers, and system integrators;
      (B) The following notice is included with the kit:
      FCC NOTICE: This kit is designed to allow:
      (1) Product developers to evaluate electronic components, circuitry, or software associated with the kit to determine whether to incorporate such items in a finished product and
      (2) Software developers to write software applications for use with the end product. This kit is not a finished product and when assembled may not be resold or otherwise marketed unless all required FCC equipment authorizations are first obtained. Operation is subject to the condition that this product not cause harmful interference to licensed radio stations and that this product accept harmful interference. Unless the assembled kit is designed to operate under part 15, part 18 or part 95 of this chapter, the operator of the kit must operate under the authority of an FCC license holder or must secure an experimental authorization under part 5 of this chapter.
      (C) The kit is labeled with the following legend: For evaluation only; not FCC approved for resale; and
      (D) Any radiofrequency transmitter employed as part of an evaluation kit shall be designed to comply with all applicable FCC technical rules, including frequency use, spurious and out-of-band emission limits, and maximum power or field strength ratings applicable to final products that would employ the components or circuitry to be evaluated.
      (d) Importation. The provisions of subpart K of this part continue to apply to imported radio frequency devices.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Andrew Broughton on September 06, 2018, 11:42:26 am
Must be one of the most unenforced laws ever.
Type in Baofeng and dozens (if not hundreds) of suppliers in the USA come up. Even Amazon and eBay don't care and allow tons to be sold through their platform.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Henry Cohen on September 06, 2018, 05:15:13 pm
Must be one of the most unenforced laws ever.
Type in Baofeng and dozens (if not hundreds) of suppliers in the USA come up. Even Amazon and eBay don't care and allow tons to be sold through their platform.

Yes: Far too many offenders, far too few FCC enforcement bureau agents and not enough perceived public harm to warrant a change.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Andrew Broughton on September 06, 2018, 09:48:34 pm
Ok, now that we have that out of the way...
Back to my question...

Has anyone seen a product with the functionality of the "Cheap Chinese Radios"TM, (even if they're made in China) but with decent quality? Some Chinese manufacturers make some decent stuff, just haven't seen it in Radio Land...
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Henry Cohen on September 07, 2018, 10:07:22 am
Has anyone seen a product with the functionality of the "Cheap Chinese Radios"TM, (even if they're made in China) but with decent quality? Some Chinese manufacturers make some decent stuff, just haven't seen it in Radio Land...

Because they are not legal, not enough people will pay top dollar for a Motorola/Kenwood/Hytera/Tait equivalent quality product to make it profitable to manufacture, even given Chinese labor costs. So the answer is no, at least not in the USA.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Tom Provenza on September 16, 2018, 01:06:48 pm
FCC is actually  starting to crack down on this.


http://m.urgentcomm.com/fcc/fcc-issues-citation-and-order-against-dealer-non-compliant-chinese-radios
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Lyle Williams on September 19, 2018, 05:52:12 am
I really don't want the Baofeng/Yaesu/etc feature set.

I want to program a radio for a set channel, and then have ONLY volume and ptt controls.

Nothing that a user can mess up.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Andrew Broughton on September 19, 2018, 01:09:51 pm
I really don't want the Baofeng/Yaesu/etc feature set.

I want to program a radio for a set channel, and then have ONLY volume and ptt controls.

Nothing that a user can mess up.
There are many like that. Either lockable controls, or no controls (other than volume/PTT or channel if you like) and programmable via software.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Scott Helmke on September 24, 2018, 03:28:48 pm
Quote
The Enforcement Bureau (Bureau) of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) has observed that a growing number of conventional retailers and websites advertise and sell low-cost, two-way VHF/UHF radios that do not comply with the FCC’s rules.  Such devices are used primarily for short-distance, two-way voice communications and are frequently imported into the United States.  These radios must be authorized by the FCC prior to being imported, advertised, sold, or operated in the United States.

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DA-18-980A1.pdf
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Andrew Broughton on September 24, 2018, 10:18:48 pm
So I guess all these guys are going down? (doubt it...)

https://baofengtech.com/
https://www.buytwowayradios.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=baofeng
https://baofengradio.us/where-to-buy
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Tim McCulloch on September 24, 2018, 10:55:39 pm
So I guess all these guys are going down? (doubt it...)

https://baofengtech.com/
https://www.buytwowayradios.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=baofeng
https://baofengradio.us/where-to-buy

You left out Amazon.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Andrew Broughton on September 25, 2018, 06:12:25 am
You left out Amazon.
and eBay of course...
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Stephen Swaffer on September 26, 2018, 05:39:16 pm
I really don't want the Baofeng/Yaesu/etc feature set.

I want to program a radio for a set channel, and then have ONLY volume and ptt controls.

Nothing that a user can mess up.

Whether it is legal or not, I can't say-programing software and cables can be purchased for Hyterra Digital radios.  I was getting poor service from a reputable dealer I won't name, so was looking for a way to tweak the channel assignments on our radios.  Since then the person responsible for said poor service has disappeared from my radar and service has improved greatly-I prefer to use the dealer.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Rob Spence on September 26, 2018, 05:42:34 pm
I got Motorola walkies and bought a programming cable and software. I then set 6 channels to what I needed (legal channels).


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Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Andrew Broughton on September 27, 2018, 02:47:48 am
I got Motorola walkies and bought a programming cable and software. I then set 6 channels to what I needed (legal channels).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Which model?
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Tom Provenza on September 27, 2018, 06:08:15 am
Latest from FCC on this

https://www.fcc.gov/document/enforcement-bureau-issues-advisory-two-way-vhfuhf-radios
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Rob Spence on September 27, 2018, 11:16:27 am
Which model?

CP200 16ch model.

I still use VHF. Not much competition down there.



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Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Andrew Broughton on September 27, 2018, 06:33:58 pm
CP200 16ch model.

How did you manage to get the programming software?
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Rob Spence on September 27, 2018, 10:12:17 pm
How did you manage to get the programming software?
Bought it on eBay.


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Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Tom Provenza on September 28, 2018, 06:26:30 am
Bought it on eBay.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Which indicates it was an illegal copy and/or the seller violated the license agreement they signed when originally purchasing the software from Motorola.

It is not a big deal for anyone to legally purchase Motorola software, they just make it more of a process (and costly) than the Chinese brands.

To be clear, this post isn’t to criticize Rob, but rather to point out how seriously MSI takes their software and the processes they have used over many years to stay compliant to this issue of controlling how their radios can be programmed.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Nick Falbo on October 15, 2018, 08:05:45 pm
Those frequencies are not available for business operations, only personal and family.

Not true for all non-licensed frequencies, there are frequenceies in the 900mhz ISM Band (the Motorola DTR series use this) band that are license free for business radios, and the MURS frequencies can also be used without a licence for business use. In the United States, the Multi-Use Radio Service (MURS) is a licensed by rule two-way radio service similar to Citizens Band (CB). Established by the U.S. Federal Communications Commission in the fall of 2000, MURS created a radio service allowing for licensed by rule (Part 95) operation in a narrow selection of the VHF band, with a power limit of 2 watts. The FCC formally defines MURS as "a private, two-way, short-distance voice or data communications service for personal or business activities of the general public." MURS stations may not be connected to the public telephone network, may not be used for store and forward operations, and radio repeaters are not permitted.

Here is the text of FCC Part 95 Subsection J: §95.2703   Definitions, MURS.
MURS. A two-way, short distance voice or data communication service for facilitating personal or business activities of the general public.

Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Nick Falbo on October 15, 2018, 08:14:34 pm
Yes.

47CFR §2.803    Marketing of radio frequency devices prior to equipment authorization.
      (a) Marketing, as used in this section, includes sale or lease, or offering for sale or lease, including advertising for sale or lease, or importation, shipment, or distribution for the purpose of selling or leasing or offering for sale or lease.
      (b) General rule. No person may market a radio frequency device unless:
      (1) For devices subject to authorization under certification, the device has been authorized in accordance with the rules in subpart J of this chapter and is properly identified and labeled as required by § 2.925 and other relevant sections in this chapter; or
      (2) For devices subject to authorization under verification or Declaration of Conformity in accordance with the rules in subpart J of this chapter, the device complies with all applicable technical, labeling, identification and administrative requirements; or
      (3) For devices that do not require a grant of equipment authorization under subpart J of this chapter but must comply with the specified technical standards prior to use, the device complies with all applicable, technical, labeling, identification and administrative requirements.
      (c) Exceptions. The following marketing activities are permitted prior to equipment authorization:
      (1) Activities under market trials conducted pursuant to subpart H of part 5.
      (2) Limited marketing is permitted, as described in the following text, for devices that could be authorized under the current rules; could be authorized under waivers of such rules that are in effect at the time of marketing; or could be authorized under rules that have been adopted by the Commission but that have not yet become effective. These devices may not be operated unless permitted by § 2.805.
      (i) Conditional sales contracts (including agreements to produce new devices manufactured in accordance with designated specifications) are permitted between manufacturers and wholesalers or retailers provided that delivery is made contingent upon compliance with the applicable equipment authorization and technical requirements.
      (ii) A radio frequency device that is in the conceptual, developmental, design or pre-production stage may be offered for sale solely to business, commercial, industrial, scientific or medical users (but not an offer for sale to other parties or to end users located in a residential environment) if the prospective buyer is advised in writing at the time of the offer for sale that the equipment is subject to the FCC rules and that the equipment will comply with the appropriate rules before delivery to the buyer or to centers of distribution.
      (iii) (A) A radio frequency device may be advertised or displayed, (e.g., at a trade show or exhibition) if accompanied by a conspicuous notice containing this language:
        This device has not been authorized as required by the rules of the Federal Communications Commission. This device is not, and may not be, offered for sale or lease, or sold or leased, until authorization is obtained.
      (B) If the device being displayed is a prototype of a device that has been properly authorized and the prototype, itself, is not authorized due to differences between the prototype and the authorized device, this language may be used instead: Prototype. Not for Sale.
      (iv) An evaluation kit as defined in § 2.1 may be sold provided that:
      (A) Sales are limited to product developers, software developers, and system integrators;
      (B) The following notice is included with the kit:
      FCC NOTICE: This kit is designed to allow:
      (1) Product developers to evaluate electronic components, circuitry, or software associated with the kit to determine whether to incorporate such items in a finished product and
      (2) Software developers to write software applications for use with the end product. This kit is not a finished product and when assembled may not be resold or otherwise marketed unless all required FCC equipment authorizations are first obtained. Operation is subject to the condition that this product not cause harmful interference to licensed radio stations and that this product accept harmful interference. Unless the assembled kit is designed to operate under part 15, part 18 or part 95 of this chapter, the operator of the kit must operate under the authority of an FCC license holder or must secure an experimental authorization under part 5 of this chapter.
      (C) The kit is labeled with the following legend: For evaluation only; not FCC approved for resale; and
      (D) Any radiofrequency transmitter employed as part of an evaluation kit shall be designed to comply with all applicable FCC technical rules, including frequency use, spurious and out-of-band emission limits, and maximum power or field strength ratings applicable to final products that would employ the components or circuitry to be evaluated.
      (d) Importation. The provisions of subpart K of this part continue to apply to imported radio frequency devices.

No. Because they are marketed to the Amateur (HAM) radio market which does not have the same regulations. When you buy one of those radios they come with a warning that they are not Part 90 certified and are not for use non Amateur Radio Frequencies. Baofeng also makes Part 90 certified products like the UV82C which is certified to for use on commercial frequencies as does TYT. Radios that are not Part 90 certified can be used on amateur frequencies, and radios that are Part 90 certified can be used on both amateur and commercial frequencies.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Rob Spence on October 15, 2018, 09:40:15 pm
Not true for all non-licensed frequencies, there are frequenceies in the 900mhz ISM Band (the Motorola DTR series use this) band that are license free for business radios, and the MURS frequencies can also be used without a licence for business use. In the United States, the Multi-Use Radio Service (MURS) is a licensed by rule two-way radio service similar to Citizens Band (CB). Established by the U.S. Federal Communications Commission in the fall of 2000, MURS created a radio service allowing for licensed by rule (Part 95) operation in a narrow selection of the VHF band, with a power limit of 2 watts. The FCC formally defines MURS as "a private, two-way, short-distance voice or data communications service for personal or business activities of the general public." MURS stations may not be connected to the public telephone network, may not be used for store and forward operations, and radio repeaters are not permitted.

Here is the text of FCC Part 95 Subsection J: §95.2703   Definitions, MURS.
MURS. A two-way, short distance voice or data communication service for facilitating personal or business activities of the general public.

Exactly. I use the MURS frequencies.



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Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Henry Cohen on October 15, 2018, 10:12:00 pm
Not true for all non-licensed frequencies, there are frequenceies in the 900mhz ISM Band (the Motorola DTR series use this) band that are license free for business radios, and the MURS frequencies can also be used without a licence for business use. In the United States, the Multi-Use Radio Service (MURS) is a licensed by rule two-way radio service similar to Citizens Band (CB). Established by the U.S. Federal Communications Commission in the fall of 2000, MURS created a radio service allowing for licensed by rule (Part 95) operation in a narrow selection of the VHF band, with a power limit of 2 watts. The FCC formally defines MURS as "a private, two-way, short-distance voice or data communications service for personal or business activities of the general public." MURS stations may not be connected to the public telephone network, may not be used for store and forward operations, and radio repeaters are not permitted.

Here is the text of FCC Part 95 Subsection J: §95.2703   Definitions, MURS.
MURS. A two-way, short distance voice or data communication service for facilitating personal or business activities of the general public.

My response was to the Rob's mention of UHF frequencies. MURS is VHF, As for the DTR;s you are correct, but I was still referring to the mid-UHF business band; 450-512. I should have been clearer about that.
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Henry Cohen on October 15, 2018, 10:25:52 pm
No. Because they are marketed to the Amateur (HAM) radio market which does not have the same regulations. When you buy one of those radios they come with a warning that they are not Part 90 certified and are not for use non Amateur Radio Frequencies. Baofeng also makes Part 90 certified products like the UV82C which is certified to for use on commercial frequencies as does TYT. Radios that are not Part 90 certified can be used on amateur frequencies, and radios that are Part 90 certified can be used on both amateur and commercial frequencies.

There are many folk who will point out those non-certified radios are marketed to the business band (and even the public safety) community, not to the Amateurs. Walk around an IWCE show sometime. And if the radios are indeed for Amateurs, why do they tune to exactly the business band frequencies in major use?

But the topic at hand was radios for use in business application, not by Amateurs. 
Title: Re: 2 way radios
Post by: Nick Falbo on October 15, 2018, 11:02:19 pm
There are many folk who will point out those non-certified radios are marketed to the business band (and even the public safety) community, not to the Amateurs. Walk around an IWCE show sometime. And if the radios are indeed for Amateurs, why do they tune to exactly the business band frequencies in major use?

But the topic at hand was radios for use in business application, not by Amateurs.

Because they make these radios for world wide use. In other countries there are frequencies that are available for non licensed use, etc. Build one model, sell it worldwide. Saves them money. Think about it this way, they can do it but ability does not mean legal to do so. Your car may be able to do 120mph but it is not legal to do so on most roadways. All of the of the cheap chinese stuff is able to be considered HAM radio equipment becuause of the FCC Type 97 Rules. Ham radio (and the equipment) is covered under Part 97, which means you can us a Yaesu, Baofeng, Wouxun, or any homemade or modified device. Part 97 does not require special equipment certification or approval, except commercially sold models do require FCC Part 15 compliance (note it is "compliance", not "certification", big difference and all radios that are imported will not be granted through customs without said compliance). Part 97 is rules for the person aka the licensee, and it is up to the person to ensure their equipment falls within the specs, and the actual Baofengs do. There are some fake Baofengs that fail but that is another story for another day.

As far as being sold to public safety, i don't know many areas that operate analog any more. We installed the APCO 25 radio system at my fire hall and throughout my county 10 years ago and the State operates both an APCO 25 and Opensky system none of which can use any of the analog radios.