ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Ethan Kurobe on April 30, 2017, 06:34:14 am

Title: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Ethan Kurobe on April 30, 2017, 06:34:14 am
So got a chance to talk to couple of guys and the upcoming technologies in Large format Line Arrays. I visited Martin Audio multi cellular MLAs & also on the same lines EAW's Adaptive Anya and Anna. Where both MLA & Adaptive Systems power each driver with individual dedicated amplifier and DSP to my understanding EAW have gone ahead with much more with new updates to their software to what adaptive solutions can do. I heard gossips at PL&S that maybe d&b is coming up with a new LA on a similar concept. Don't want to dwell on that.

So I am thinking and reason for this post: Is this the future of the Line Arrays? A lot of products from great brands are launched not too long ago like Clair Brothers Cohesion or L'Acoustics K1/K2 or Meyer Leo family.. and now these new revolutionary products are being launched.

So a professional and experience advise would be to invest in this new technology or go around buy whatever brand or sound system one prefer as per existing markets.

This new approach to Line Arrays by EAW and Martin Audio and maybe many more in near future will it change the industry? Any of the guys who heard them or have any inputs on the matter please share your thoughts
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on April 30, 2017, 07:32:09 am
So got a chance to talk to couple of guys and the upcoming technologies in Large format Line Arrays. I visited Martin Audio multi cellular MLAs & also on the same lines EAW's Adaptive Anya and Anna. Where both MLA & Adaptive Systems power each driver with individual dedicated amplifier and DSP to my understanding EAW have gone ahead with much more with new updates to their software to what adaptive solutions can do. I heard gossips at PL&S that maybe d&b is coming up with a new LA on a similar concept. Don't want to dwell on that.

So I am thinking and reason for this post: Is this the future of the Line Arrays? A lot of products from great brands are launched not too long ago like Clair Brothers Cohesion or L'Acoustics K1/K2 or Meyer Leo family.. and now these new revolutionary products are being launched.

So a professional and experience advise would be to invest in this new technology or go around buy whatever brand or sound system one prefer as per existing markets.

This new approach to Line Arrays by EAW and Martin Audio and maybe many more in near future will it change the industry? Any of the guys who heard them or have any inputs on the matter please share your thoughts
In the future, all restaurants are Taco Bell and all line arrays are Danley point source boxes.
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on April 30, 2017, 07:45:13 am
Every time the "D" brand comes up you have to drink.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 30, 2017, 08:53:10 am
Every time the "D" brand comes up you have to drink.

Yeah-to celebrate the future :)
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: eric lenasbunt on April 30, 2017, 08:53:15 am
When are you looking to buy? If you need something soon to fulfill your needs than you either go with current offerings toward beginning of their life like L Acoustics K, Meyer Leo, etc OR if you have half a million or more and the clients to support it by all means go Anya.
Either way, you are talking about large stadium/arena systems and I would lean more toward whatever you clients are interested in.

We supported a second stage recently for an arena show done by Morris out of Nashville. They had piles of d&b J1 and v series for outfill. Talking to their guys they of course love that PA. They own it because it makes the most money sense because people spec it and want it. They also have a big Nexo STM system for their tours with Chesney because that's what that client wants right now. At that level you buy high end and you buy what your client is looking for.
Early adoption of a technology comes with a high price tag, a lot of risk, but some good potential reward of the product is successful (and you are the only one around who has it).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Lee Buckalew on April 30, 2017, 09:23:09 am
Either way, you are talking about large stadium/arena systems and I would lean more toward whatever you clients are interested in.

Early adoption of a technology comes with a high price tag, a lot of risk, but some good potential reward of the product is successful (and you are the only one around who has it).

These choices don't have to be stadium sized. 
EAW offers both Anya and Anna while Martin offers a full line of sizes in MLA and supporting products such as CDD-LIVE and various subwoofer options.

MLA and Cellular Drive technology are available in 3 different sizes to support nearly any sized venue/space, large to small.  With offerings of 12" 3 way, 10" 3 way and 6.5" 2 way (plus LF Drive module).  It is not a new technology, having been in the product line for quite some time now.  I believe they are at a decade or more now for full sized MLA.

Wavefront Precision is now introduced and takes the technology down some levels in price and resolution for areas where you don't need hard avoid or don't need the higher resolution of MLA.  You can't scale all the way up to full sized MLA or get all of the functions of Cellular Drive but it offers a lower price point, divorced amplifiers, the ability to scale amp channels and DSP to the resolution that your application requires, and it utilizes the same design software and control software that MLA and CDD LIVE both utilize. 

It certainly seems to me that this is the direction that most of the touring manufacturers are taking.  Some just have to wait for current patents to expire to go to their next level.

Lee
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Mike Hedden on April 30, 2017, 11:50:03 am
These choices don't have to be stadium sized. 
EAW offers both Anya and Anna while Martin offers a full line of sizes in MLA and supporting products such as CDD-LIVE and various subwoofer options.

MLA and Cellular Drive technology are available in 3 different sizes to support nearly any sized venue/space, large to small.  With offerings of 12" 3 way, 10" 3 way and 6.5" 2 way (plus LF Drive module).  It is not a new technology, having been in the product line for quite some time now.  I believe they are at a decade or more now for full sized MLA.

Wavefront Precision is now introduced and takes the technology down some levels in price and resolution for areas where you don't need hard avoid or don't need the higher resolution of MLA.  You can't scale all the way up to full sized MLA or get all of the functions of Cellular Drive but it offers a lower price point, divorced amplifiers, the ability to scale amp channels and DSP to the resolution that your application requires, and it utilizes the same design software and control software that MLA and CDD LIVE both utilize. 

It certainly seems to me that this is the direction that most of the touring manufacturers are taking.  Some just have to wait for current patents to expire to go to their next level.

Lee

I'm fascinated that Dr Evert Stuart developed this process of digital synthesis years ago and it was used in the Axys and Intellivox products of Duran. This was close to a decade before the current product offerings and yet few know of Dr Stuart and his brilliant work.  Harmon bought them a few years back  so predicated on what Samsung does with the company I'm figuring soon you'll see the JBL DDS line. Funny thing is many will say they are following a trend yet the company they bought was doing  it longer than anyone.

Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Ethan Kurobe on April 30, 2017, 12:25:29 pm
The point is I feel little blessed that I get to buy my large format array now when all of this is happening. LA have been here for more than 2 decades and now this new technology is coming up. I knew of Axys & Intellivox products but to see all this implemented in concert sound is wow.

I am a little confused on whether I should be investing money in these modern multi cellular systems or go with the current industry standards.. So I am trying to figure out what the industry professionals feel about this.. Do you think investing with this newer technology is a way forward or its gonna take years before they are taken as a solid level up.

More so all these advantages with new technology is great but still the most important factor is Sound.. the tonality of the system. Why we are fans of brands that we invest or look upto is because of how they sound, the tonality of the system. Its good to have more control on the system but how they sound is also very important.

To be short don't have that kind of money that we keep on investing year after year. We are planning to pick up 32 box solution and then again maybe in next 4-7 years. So I got cautious when the rumours of d&b's releasing new flagship solution under the same category. The thing to notice is that MLAs have been out for a while now but the industry is not much phased by it I still see top rental guys buying Clairs, L'acoustics and Meyers hence the dilemma, with my financer backing us its very important we take to the right direction.
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Lee Buckalew on April 30, 2017, 12:56:22 pm
I'm fascinated that Dr Evert Stuart developed this process of digital synthesis years ago and it was used in the Axys and Intellivox products of Duran. This was close to a decade before the current product offerings and yet few know of Dr Stuart and his brilliant work.  Harmon bought them a few years back  so predicated on what Samsung does with the company I'm figuring soon you'll see the JBL DDS line. Funny thing is many will say they are following a trend yet the company they bought was doing  it longer than anyone.

Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs

Yes, truly groundbreaking work but not the same thing as MLA.  MLA starts with what you want to achieve at and all along the listening plane rather than starting with what you want the speakers to produce.  It then utilizes the speaker driver and filter interactions to create the best solution on the listening plane rather than the most coherent output at the speakers.

Very significant difference.

Lee
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Lee Buckalew on April 30, 2017, 01:01:36 pm
The point is I feel little blessed that I get to buy my large format array now when all of this is happening. LA have been here for more than 2 decades and now this new technology is coming up. I knew of Axys & Intellivox products but to see all this implemented in concert sound is wow.

I am a little confused on whether I should be investing money in these modern multi cellular systems or go with the current industry standards.. So I am trying to figure out what the industry professionals feel about this.. Do you think investing with this newer technology is a way forward or its gonna take years before they are taken as a solid level up.

More so all these advantages with new technology is great but still the most important factor is Sound.. the tonality of the system. Why we are fans of brands that we invest or look upto is because of how they sound, the tonality of the system. Its good to have more control on the system but how they sound is also very important.

To be short don't have that kind of money that we keep on investing year after year. We are planning to pick up 32 box solution and then again maybe in next 4-7 years. So I got cautious when the rumours of d&b's releasing new flagship solution under the same category. The thing to notice is that MLAs have been out for a while now but the industry is not much phased by it I still see top rental guys buying Clairs, L'acoustics and Meyers hence the dilemma, with my financer backing us its very important we take to the right direction.

Listen to and play with each of the options.  They each work very differently.  Get your hands on them and run them through their paces.  All of the manufacturers that I have dealt with are quite accommodating in getting you to a system or getting a system to you.

Rider acceptance in your market, cross rental in your area, etc. are certainly other factors that may play an even larger role in your final decision than will the technology or the sonic characteristics.

Lee
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: eric lenasbunt on April 30, 2017, 01:51:41 pm

Rider acceptance in your market, cross rental in your area, etc. are certainly other factors that may play an even larger role in your final decision than will the technology or the sonic characteristics.

Lee

Agreed. Need to make sure it will fulfill your riders AND if you need another 8 boxes for a certain application you need to know where you can find them without blowing the budget


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 30, 2017, 02:02:37 pm
Every time the "D" brand comes up you have to drink.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

That's gonna require an online 12 step program....
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on April 30, 2017, 02:03:49 pm
As a business I feel you should be more worried about ROI then on being at the bleeding edge of technology.

If no riders that come past your desk say Martin then it makes 0 sense to buy it.
I doubt anyone will turn down an anya system buy if it comes to a bidding was are you going to beat out a system that costs less and performs just as well.

Sure there are disruptions to the market but I don't think that solutions like MLA and Anya are performing that much better than what solutions from Meyer and Lacoustics are doing otherwise there would be a distinct skew towards those products being requested.
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Lee Buckalew on April 30, 2017, 02:24:46 pm
As a business I feel you should be more worried about ROI then on being at the bleeding edge of technology.

If no riders that come past your desk say Martin then it makes 0 sense to buy it.
I doubt anyone will turn down an anya system buy if it comes to a bidding was are you going to beat out a system that costs less and performs just as well.

Sure there are disruptions to the market but I don't think that solutions like MLA and Anya are performing that much better than what solutions from Meyer and Lacoustics are doing otherwise there would be a distinct skew towards those products being requested.

In a number of real world tests over the last year and a half that we have done I can say that MLA has significantly outperformed all others that were tested against it.  Many "standards" that have been listed here.  By outperformed I mean in SPL capability, accuracy of reproduction, lower weight, etc., measurable criteria and not simply listening impressions.  They were also preferred by all of the listeners involved. 

MLA and Anya are completely different systems, let's not lump them together as if they are the same or even similar.

Lee
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: David Buckley on April 30, 2017, 05:07:59 pm
In the future, all restaurants are Taco Bell

Unless they are all Pizza Hut - proof (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpRzusd9Yi8).
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on April 30, 2017, 05:25:51 pm
In a number of real world tests over the last year and a half that we have done I can say that MLA has significantly outperformed all others that were tested against it.  Many "standards" that have been listed here.  By outperformed I mean in SPL capability, accuracy of reproduction, lower weight, etc., measurable criteria and not simply listening impressions.  They were also preferred by all of the listeners involved. 

MLA and Anya are completely different systems, let's not lump them together as if they are the same or even similar.

Lee

You wouldn't mind posting results of said tests here so that we can all see. I really enjoy looking at  test results and you never know it might help OP in coming to a decision.
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 30, 2017, 05:28:25 pm
That's gonna require an online 12 step program....
Less than 12 steps to my ice box and cold beer.... 8)

JR
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Scott Holtzman on April 30, 2017, 06:39:42 pm
When are you looking to buy? If you need something soon to fulfill your needs than you either go with current offerings toward beginning of their life like L Acoustics K, Meyer Leo, etc OR if you have half a million or more and the clients to support it by all means go Anya.
Either way, you are talking about large stadium/arena systems and I would lean more toward whatever you clients are interested in.

We supported a second stage recently for an arena show done by Morris out of Nashville. They had piles of d&b J1 and v series for outfill. Talking to their guys they of course love that PA. They own it because it makes the most money sense because people spec it and want it. They also have a big Nexo STM system for their tours with Chesney because that's what that client wants right now. At that level you buy high end and you buy what your client is looking for.
Early adoption of a technology comes with a high price tag, a lot of risk, but some good potential reward of the product is successful (and you are the only one around who has it).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The Nexo STM is very attractive.  Essentially it's one drive rack, a sub, a mid bass driver and what they call an "omni box".  Not counting the rigging bits and pieces I can't find a system with a lower SKU count.  Another company has one in town so it would be easy to supplement.  It's a real system, designed to work together, from transport to rigging, tuning and operating.  When we are ready it's on my short list (which will change).  I don't spend as much time having mental contortions because the business will dictate what we buy, not the other end around.

Until then the PO's are far more mundane.
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Lee Buckalew on April 30, 2017, 08:14:07 pm
You wouldn't mind posting results of said tests here so that we can all see. I really enjoy looking at  test results and you never know it might help OP in coming to a decision.

No, I cannot post results as they are our clients results.  This was for a church.  Each system hung for an entire weekend of rehearsals and services, tuned by factory personnel and then left to the church to utilize.  The same FOH was utilized for all systems.  Each system was demoed over a different weekend.

In any case, people are able, with any of these manufacturers, if they are seriously looking at systems, to get a demo and get their hands (and ears) on the systems and see/hear for themselves what they think. 
What gets posted online is third party and, as much as I trust some people's opinions, I want to hear and experience each of these for myself.

Lee

Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 30, 2017, 09:13:28 pm
No, I cannot post results as they are our clients results.  This was for a church.  Each system hung for an entire weekend of rehearsals and services, tuned by factory personnel and then left to the church to utilize.  The same FOH was utilized for all systems.  Each system was demoed over a different weekend.

In any case, people are able, with any of these manufacturers, if they are seriously looking at systems, to get a demo and get their hands (and ears) on the systems and see/hear for themselves what they think. 
What gets posted online is third party and, as much as I trust some people's opinions, I want to hear and experience each of these for myself.

Lee
We did a side by side with 2 other major manufacturers, setup by factory people in a large Church.

It was quite interesting some of the comments about the systems as they were switched back and forth.

There were a number of sources used-normal recorded music-multitrack live recordings-Pastors mic and live drums.

The differences were STUNNING to say the least. 

Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on May 01, 2017, 07:33:43 am
Martin MLA and EAW Adaptive are two completely different animals, as others have pointed out.
Having used both, I will say that MLA is very good and Adaptive is even better, especially in terms of coverage adjustments in real time. Both will consistently outperform a lot of traditional line arrays under identical condition and Adaptive will blow them out of the water if you have to fly the PA from a difficult point in the venue.

FWIW
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: John L Nobile on May 01, 2017, 01:49:06 pm
Every time the "D" brand comes up you have to drink.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

As if I need an excuse. :)
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on May 01, 2017, 04:54:33 pm
The future of line arrays should be triangular, right?

We started with single point speakers, then moved to lines...next we should be moving to triangular speaker arrays, right?   8)
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 01, 2017, 05:05:46 pm
The future of line arrays should be triangular, right?

We started with single point speakers, then moved to lines...next we should be moving to triangular speaker arrays, right?   8)
And then round arrays.

OH wait-some major manufacturers did that years ago (roundish anyway-OK more like a square with no middle-just the outline).  At least in their brochures.

I have never seen it in the wild
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Patrick Cognitore on May 01, 2017, 05:37:56 pm
The future of line arrays should be triangular, right?
It's not a line array, but Danley is almost there with a triangle. Just got to move the sub behind the two Jericho's.

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/18076882_1303417423027721_3135566457846526596_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=b60ef535b9ee0690aaf693fad0672ba2&oe=59740B29)

Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Stephen Kirby on May 01, 2017, 05:49:39 pm
The future of line arrays should be triangular, right?

We started with single point speakers, then moved to lines...next we should be moving to triangular speaker arrays, right?   8)
What would be the purpose of triangular?  Line arrays are an attempt to create a theoretical source.  You can have theoretical line sources, theoretical directed singe point sources, or theoretical omni-directional spherical point sources.

A line source capable of concert SPLs will have multiple arrivals from the bottom to top elements.

Going triangular would add another axis where there would be multiple arrivals.

If you were in an anechoic space, a spherical source would give everyone the same FR but not the same SPL.  In the real world, the reflections would make it a non-starter.

So you are left with a pseudo directed point source.  Either by combining elements mechanically or by electrically compensating to give a similar effect.  Each has it's issues.  There are SPL issues with getting enough air movement within the wavelength limitations of a single physical point source, and it is pretty much impossible to eliminate the multiple arrivals of a large virtual point source.

The more we know, the more we realize there's more to learn.
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 01, 2017, 06:33:21 pm
What would be the purpose of triangular?  Line arrays are an attempt to create a theoretical source.  You can have theoretical line sources, theoretical directed singe point sources, or theoretical omni-directional spherical point sources.

A line source capable of concert SPLs will have multiple arrivals from the bottom to top elements.

Going triangular would add another axis where there would be multiple arrivals.

If you were in an anechoic space, a spherical source would give everyone the same FR but not the same SPL.  In the real world, the reflections would make it a non-starter.

So you are left with a pseudo directed point source.  Either by combining elements mechanically or by electrically compensating to give a similar effect.  Each has it's issues.  There are SPL issues with getting enough air movement within the wavelength limitations of a single physical point source, and it is pretty much impossible to eliminate the multiple arrivals of a large virtual point source.

The more we know, the more we realize there's more to learn.

I think you missed Cap'n Smartass Bigler's satire.

"A nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat, eh?"  -M. Python  /nudge, wink
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Peter Morris on May 01, 2017, 06:41:31 pm
Yes I think this is where we are going, processing to maximise the combined performance of the elements in the array.
   
As you mentioned there is MLA and Anya. Recently Martin released a cheaper version using the same technology – the Wavefront Precision Series.  d&b Audiotechnik has now introduced ArrayProcessing and AFMG has released FIRmaker which is being picked up by quite a few manufactures. 

Even cost effective speakers such as dB Technologies DVA and VIO line arrays allow individual settings for each box and full computer control with RDnet to maximise their performance.

 
https://martin-audio.com/products/series/wavefront-precision

http://www.dbaudio.com/en/campaigns/arrayprocessing.html

http://firmaker.afmg.eu/

http://www.dbtechnologies.com/en/products/software-controller/dbtechnologies-network-p3635.aspx
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 01, 2017, 06:53:42 pm
It's not a line array, but Danley is almost there with a triangle. Just got to move the sub behind the two Jericho's.

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/18076882_1303417423027721_3135566457846526596_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=b60ef535b9ee0690aaf693fad0672ba2&oe=59740B29)
I hate to put woofers behind the mains.

One big reason is that the woofers are "already late", by the time the sound comes out of the cabinet-due to the delay of the low pass filters etc.  So the mains would have to be delayed even more-which makes them arrive at the listener later.

So they "should" be in front of the mains-but that isn't going to happen.

So putting them on the side is the best option.
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on May 01, 2017, 08:43:29 pm
I think you missed Cap'n Smartass Bigler's satire.

"A nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat, eh?"  -M. Python  /nudge, wink
My humor is so dry, that no one gets it.  :'(
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Jay Brett on May 01, 2017, 09:16:55 pm
I spent the last 3 years trying to decide what do go with in regards to a new system for my venue. I looked at K2, D&B V-Series, Martin MLA and Meyer. Ultimately I went with D&B and I'm very happy! Made that choice based on a few factors. 1. Rider acceptance. Almost every rider I get lists D&B, L'Acoustic and Meyer 1-3. Martin doesn't even make the list on most riders. 2. Cross rental. The local production company I utilize to provide my labor is a D&B house, so if I need to add some additional J-subs or Infras, it's simple. C. My Ears.

I think the future is all about furthering the system processing side of things much like the MLA.
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 02, 2017, 12:30:18 am
The shear size of those subs mated together never ceases to amaze me.  You can really see it next to the ironwork and the Jericho's

It is also fascinating that the opening looks like a vagina.

Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 02, 2017, 07:09:54 am
The shear size of those subs mated together never ceases to amaze me.  You can really see it next to the ironwork and the Jericho's

It is also fascinating that the opening looks like a vagina.
But they are still small-when you consider how many it would take of normal subs to equal the output.

Also the natural directivity is quite scary-how quiet it is behind them-without any electronic cancellation.

BTW-Tom calls the opening "the eye of the tiger".  It could be the same thing wink wink nod nod
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: John Halliburton on May 02, 2017, 08:19:15 am
But they are still small-when you consider how many it would take of normal subs to equal the output.

Also the natural directivity is quite scary-how quiet it is behind them-without any electronic cancellation.

BTW-Tom calls the opening "the eye of the tiger".  It could be the same thing wink wink nod nod

I've thought of it as the "Cat's Eye" sub myself...but Scott brings up an intriguing alternative that the marketing folks should have a field day with. ;>)

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 02, 2017, 09:01:47 am
I've thought of it as the "Cat's Eye" sub myself...but Scott brings up an intriguing alternative that the marketing folks should have a field day with. ;>)

Best regards,

John

The "mother" of all subs?
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Peter Morris on May 02, 2017, 09:10:59 am
 :-\ ...
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on May 02, 2017, 09:57:31 am
It's not a line array, but Danley is almost there with a triangle. Just got to move the sub behind the two Jericho's.

(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/18076882_1303417423027721_3135566457846526596_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=b60ef535b9ee0690aaf693fad0672ba2&oe=59740B29)

Which DSL boxes are those?
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Tom Danley on May 02, 2017, 10:23:22 am
The "mother" of all subs?

 Hi  Tim
When we introduced that sub, one of the guys at the shop, Chad I think it was got inside and was crouched down in the mouth. 
At that moment it was determined that if we could give it a loud enough kick drum hit, we could give birth to Chad, right there on the demo room floor.

MOAS doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue like MOAB does but might be a suitable name. 
The pair does replace the 14 double 18 line array subs that had been spec’d, the pair goes nearly an octave lower, has more forward directivity and is louder.   
The approach in these stadiums is not aimed at selling the most boxes for a given job but getting the most sound out of the fewest boxes consistent with Hopkins Stryker / intelligibility.
Best,
Tom
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Tom Danley on May 02, 2017, 10:28:04 am
:-\ ...

Hi Peter
Eye of the Tiger.

This should be a fun system commissioning,  there is more firepower there than any of the 100,000 seat outdoor stadiums or Disney stuff we have done so far and a lot of the people are close only a hundred feet or so from the hangs and the subs go down low (I kind of like low bass). 

To be clear, this is not a line array or aimed at live sound but here is an idea what this “one acoustic source” stadium hifi approach can deliver, here loafing along at about 100 meters, try with headphones!. 
The audience in the stadium will be about 1/3 that distance with subs that go into the 20’s flown.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o541g5odygyx0cz/20170428113035.mts?dl=0

Best,
Tom
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 02, 2017, 10:31:10 am
Which DSL boxes are those?
The main ones in the photo are 2 BC218s (subs), a J1-94 (kinda forward facing) and a J2-94 (down facing).

There are 8 of those clusters in a ring around the field.

In the photo behind it, you can see a J3-64 (Facing the opposite direction) for field coverage.

The Upper seats are covered by a ring of SH96s-58 of them.

There is 1 SH62 for the each of the 4 corners.

Luxury box seats are covered by  GO2-8cx

Power is mostly Crown Itech 12K and 9K amps.  There are Crown 2400x4 amps (I forget the model #) for the SH96s and Go2s.

There is a lot of headroom in the amps.  For example-each of the BC218s has a bridged 12K into EACH DRIVER.  So for each cluster there are 4 bridged 12Ks for the 2 subs.

Usable power into the actual loads is around 660,000 watts.  Total amp power (if loaded down fully) is over 1,000,000 watts.
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: carlos lopez on May 02, 2017, 12:10:49 pm
The shear size of those subs mated together never ceases to amaze me.  You can really see it next to the ironwork and the Jericho's

It is also fascinating that the opening looks like a vagina.

Considering Ivan's last name is "beaver", it's no surprise to me at all ..
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Ray Aberle on May 02, 2017, 06:10:02 pm
..... whatever that is supposed to mean....?
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Art Welter on May 02, 2017, 11:17:51 pm
..... whatever that is supposed to mean....?
Ray,

You can decide.

Cheers,

Aet
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 03, 2017, 12:33:44 am
Ray,

You can decide.

Cheers,

Aet

To officially put this thread totally off the rails, it's funny you mention the mons.  So after 50 shades of grey came out GQ or some other haute mens magazine declared "the bush is back" and there was a quick run on stock in the bikini waxing industry. 

Turns out that the quite expansive patch on the character in the film was in fact a wig and used to keep the R rating with the censors for full frontal.  Seems in our day we took full frontal as a given in R rated movies (think Porky's) however in today's waxed and buffed world the ability to discern certain anatomical features during a frontal shot moves the picture to an R rating.

So what was seen as a fashion statement was actually a production decision.

I return you now to your regularly scheduled programing.

Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 03, 2017, 02:21:39 am
:-\ ...(http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=163392.0;attach=19526;image)

It's like a Georgia O'Keefe painting......... Fascinating. You just can't look away....
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Peter Morris on May 03, 2017, 02:46:01 am
It's like a Georgia O'Keefe painting......... Fascinating. You just can't look away....

ha ha, you nailed it ... Georgia O'Keefe - Inside Red Canna
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 03, 2017, 06:07:10 am
Ray,

You can decide.

Cheers,

Aet
This is a real "no shitter"

My girlfriend moved to the Washington DC area and said she was looking for a OBGYN.

She said she found one whos name was "Harry Beaver".

I did not believe her.  When I moved up there-I looked it up in the phone book (the way it was done back then) and she was right !

I would choose a different job or change my name.

But hey-maybe he got a lot of business-this was back in the early 80s, and things were a bit "hairier" back then------
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Jim McKeveny on May 03, 2017, 07:46:12 am
Re: Subject Line

The future would hopefully be lighter, faster, cheaper, better. But the big leaps in technology have perhaps already been made regarding this consumer-driven item. Progress will likely be incremental from here.

In the 60's Cessna ran ads in TIME magazine and others. Copy read something like "After that second car, isn't it time for your first plane"? How'd that work out for them?

IMO a lot of the tech "discovery" in this industry has been built-out (which was hella fun for those involved), but from things seem to be about incremental growth and seizing market share.  Decidedly less fun...
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Tom Danley on May 03, 2017, 08:49:11 am
Hi Guys
Now to be clear, nearly everything I fiddle with is designed with form following acoustic function, that it reminds you of something else is a coincidence or perhaps another case of form following  function  
Stay off the Beeve too or Ward and June will have to talk to your parents.

I don’t like to talk too much about design strategy but here I didn’t want a big non-uniform gradient at the exit so if you look, you can see there is a rear horn section and front horn section which terminate differently.  That is why there is a second “eye” inside. 
It’s ALL about the sound, the familiar even inviting look (based on how often people climb in for pictures) was coincidence.

Funny thing, shows you where my mind was, when I imagined that solution, what I thought of was the scene in terminator where that ball materialized with nude Conan and it hollowed out a spherical shape from the side of a semi truck.
Best.
Tom
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Jay Brett on May 03, 2017, 12:16:22 pm


Turns out that the quite expansive patch on the character in the film was in fact a wig and used to keep the R rating with the censors for full frontal.  Seems in our day we took full frontal as a given in R rated movies (think Porky's) however in today's waxed and buffed world the ability to discern certain anatomical features during a frontal shot moves the picture to an R rating.


So apparently the difference between a "R" rating and a "NC-17" rating is a little hairy.
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on May 03, 2017, 01:49:42 pm
Yep, this thread is officially off the rails. waaayyy out there in left field.
Title: Re: Future of Line Arrays
Post by: Mac Kerr on May 03, 2017, 02:01:42 pm
And now back to our regularly scheduled programming...