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Title: New to passive PA
Post by: Justin Addison on February 14, 2017, 08:52:08 am
Hi All, I am new here - I will introduce my self first:
I was a mobile DJ running and active RCF setup for the loudspeakers which I loved but unfortunately had to sell on when I hung up my headphones.

Anyway, many years later (now to be precise) I am starting my old live band up again and delving in to the realms of passive speaker setups (on a bit of a budget really) but want most power I can from the setup I can afford.

I opted for this (hope links are allowed): http://www.hifi-tower.co.uk/PA-System-Summer-Nights-II-3500W-Dual-15-Inch-Speakers-Bass-Bins-Amplifiers-DJ-Disco_i5649.htm

And also purchased a Soundcraft EFX12 mixer.

Right, onto my question:
Can I run both amps (Sytec SKY1500II & Skytec SKY2000II) from my mixing desk - if so, do I need any special cables/connectors?

Then I want to run 2x8ohm speakers from each amp (2 tops & 2 subs). Can I just switch the amp to Bridge mode, then go from amp CH1 to speaker, then speaker to speaker (I assume this will generate 4 ohms).

Then do the same for the subs?

So effectively I will be using 1 channel on each amp.

I hope this makes sense - just so you know the amp and speakers have speakon connectors.

Sorry for waffling - any help would be appreciated (also, this seup is already purchased so suggestions for other makes/models won't be very helpful.

Thanks
Justin
Title: Posting Rules
Post by: Mac Kerr on February 14, 2017, 09:04:15 am
Hi All, I am new here

Please read and follow the posting rules.

Mac
Title: Re: Posting Rules
Post by: Justin Addison on February 14, 2017, 09:18:50 am
Please read and follow the posting rules.

Mac

OK, done that thanks
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 14, 2017, 09:32:01 am
Justin... 

If you are still able to return this...ahem..."PA" gear and get your money back, do so ASAP.  Then ask your questions, purchase something worth the price and rock on.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Dave Pluke on February 14, 2017, 09:32:41 am

Can I run both amps (Sytec SKY1500II & Skytec SKY2000II) from my mixing desk - if so, do I need any special cables/connectors?

Then I want to run 2x8ohm speakers from each amp (2 tops & 2 subs). Can I just switch the amp to Bridge mode, then go from amp CH1 to speaker, then speaker to speaker (I assume this will generate 4 ohms).

Then do the same for the subs?

According to the specs in that link, those amps are not rated to run 4 ohms in Bridged mode (nor 2 ohms in Stereo mode).  While some may prefer running amps Bridged, I see more potential for misapplications than advantages.

Run your amps in Stereo - even if you mix in Mono.  One speaker per amp channel.  You may need some shielded "Y" cables to connect the Mixer to all Amp channels.

I've never seen that brand of amp before and the information is limited.  It appears as though they are more home hifi focused than Pro Audio (RCA and 1/4" Phone jack inputs rather than Balanced XLR).  It also appears as though they intend users to rely upon the internal crossovers (low pass / high pass filters) to separate frequencies.  That may not deliver the best results, but try it and see.

Dave
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Justin Addison on February 14, 2017, 09:56:48 am
According to the specs in that link, those amps are not rated to run 4 ohms in Bridged mode (nor 2 ohms in Stereo mode).  While some may prefer running amps Bridged, I see more potential for misapplications than advantages.

This is the Spec: PA amplifier with 2000W (2x 1000) max. power at 4 ohms (2 x 750W @ 8 Ohms or 1 x 2000W max at 8 ohms - Bridged mode)

Bridgeable - capable of 2- and 1- channel operation

Bridgeable: stereo and mono mode


Run your amps in Stereo - even if you mix in Mono.  One speaker per amp channel.  You may need some shielded "Y" cables to connect the Mixer to all Amp channels.

I've never seen that brand of amp before and the information is limited.  It appears as though they are more home hifi focused than Pro Audio (RCA and 1/4" Phone jack inputs rather than Balanced XLR).  It also appears as though they intend users to rely upon the internal crossovers (low pass / high pass filters) to separate frequencies.  That may not deliver the best results, but try it and see.

Dave

I don't see many 'home users' using speakon connectors but I may be wrong...

So I may have to buy an active crossover?
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Justin Addison on February 14, 2017, 10:00:26 am
Justin... 

If you are still able to return this...ahem..."PA" gear and get your money back, do so ASAP.  Then ask your questions, purchase something worth the price and rock on.

Sorry, Not an option - yes I would love to spend 3k-4k on a nice system - if I won the lottery! lol
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: David Scoville on February 14, 2017, 10:29:26 am
Sorry, Not an option - yes I could spend 3k-4k on a nice system - if I won the lottery! lol
 
   Without knowing what amps speakers and processing you intend to use  may I suggest you review your hopeful venues and see what others use, maybe even hire sound at first. Money spent on not just product but valuable advice and real world demonstration of what is actually needed for your bands needs and expectations.
    Unless you are trying to piece together a bunch of older used, maybe abused or probably outdated gear then please consider that passive speakers, well matched amps, decent crossovers, eq, or good dsp plus the multitude of cables and snakes etc. needed to make it all work can and usually will dwarf the cost of a well researched self powered system.
   Best of luck and see if whoever sold you those amps will honor a return/refund, that should tell you alot about them.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Will Knight on February 14, 2017, 10:55:24 am
Sorry, Not an option - yes I would love to spend 3k-4k on a nice system - if I won the lottery! lol

Justin, all kidding aside, Dick is correct.  If there is ANY way possible to return the system, that would be your best, logical first step.  What you have there are speakers and amps that will make noise....and not necessarily for audience enjoyment.  Besides, you'll need a LOT more stuff to try and make this sound "right"...?!?!? 

You would be far better served, depending on the music style of you're band - and your budget - to buy ONE (1) POWERED Sub and ONE (1) POWERED TOP...even if they are USED and in good condition.  This eliminates the need for buying separates, you'd have a reputable manufacturer to fall back on for any service or technical questions and finally, stand a good chance that the equipment would hold up.  When more $ becoming available, you can always add more.  But as I see it - and I'm sure other forum members will as well, this equipment will not serve you well, in either the short or long run.   

If you can't return it for a refund, suggest you try and sell it as quickly as you can...

Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 14, 2017, 10:55:33 am
Sorry, Not an option - yes I would love to spend 3k-4k on a nice system - if I won the lottery! lol

I checked the link to your gear.  That seller has NOTHING worth purchasing for lve sound at ANY price.  For the money you flushed down the loo you could have gone to Thomann and gotten two good powered speakers that would surpass that pile you bought, then added some subs down the line.  The EV ZLX 12's would be great for your use and budget.

And Thomann will stand behind their sales, provide warranty service, etc, something that HiFi Tower will not do.

If you think this news is depressing, wait until you try to get usable performance from those boxes.  Sorry.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Justin Addison on February 14, 2017, 11:03:11 am
 
   Without knowing what amps speakers and processing you intend to use  may I suggest you review your hopeful venues and see what others use, maybe even hire sound at first. Money spent on not just product but valuable advice and real world demonstration of what is actually needed for your bands needs and expectations.
    Unless you are trying to piece together a bunch of older used, maybe abused or probably outdated gear then please consider that passive speakers, well matched amps, decent crossovers, eq, or good dsp plus the multitude of cables and snakes etc. needed to make it all work can and usually will dwarf the cost of a well researched self powered system.
   Best of luck and see if whoever sold you those amps will honor a return/refund, that should tell you alot about them.

The kit is bought as a job lot so should be matched (check the link I posted in the opening post)
Seems that I should be ok with 8 Ohms so just need to figure out how to connect 2 amplifiers to my mixer...

Seems you all think I've bought a load of crap - I need to mic full rock band - how bad can they be? really?

Just like I said earlier - I used to have RCF active setup worth around 3k but that aint an option anymore.

Just an FYI - this is a hobby, not a money-making band - playing in pubs and small clubs - surely this will be adequate?
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 14, 2017, 11:18:35 am
The kit is bought as a job lot so should be matched (check the link I posted in the opening post)
It's matched alright. A pile of rubbish, all perfectly matched.... lolz.

Seems that I should be ok with 8 Ohms so just need to figure out how to connect 2 amplifiers to my mixer...
Wouldn't the shop who sold it to you also shown you how to connect it?

Seems you all think I've bought a load of crap - I need to mic full rock band - how bad can they be? really?
Ask yourself that the first time you're bringing in one or more of these speakers to get re-coned after you blew one, trying to get it loud enough or sounding good enough to handle this band... I mean, we all HOPE that doesn't happen, but at the same time, that's how you learn... The people offering their opinion(s) on this "system" have seen these "DJ In A Box" packages many times.... there's quite a few 'red flags' from that retailer's link that indicate this probably is not a quality system. I liked the "kick-free speakon cable," whatever the hell THAT means.

Just like I said earlier - I used to have RCF active setup worth around 3k but that aint an option anymore.
Two thoughts:

"Buy Once, Cry Once."

"The Wrong Piece Of Gear At The Right Price Is Still The Wrong Piece Of Gear."

You'll be hard-pressed to come here and find validation for your purchase, and we can certainly help you get it setup right... but I think the group consensus here is that you're probably not going to be satisfied with the results, with this setup... The mixer, sure, you can salvage that, but the rest... might be your tuition in Ye Olde School Of Hard Knocks.

-Ray
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 14, 2017, 11:22:02 am
Just an FYI - this is a hobby, not a money-making band - playing in pubs and small clubs - surely this will be adequate?
Just a word of caution though-- I would strongly urge you to test this system out, with your fully-mic'd band, privately, prior to running at a club "with your name attached to the performance" -- the last thing you want to do is take it out, have it perform poorly, and now even if you DO buy more/better kit, you'll have a "poor sound" stigma attached to your group, and it'll be really hard to get other venues to hire you in.

-Ray
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: John Rutirasiri on February 14, 2017, 11:25:54 am
The kit is bought as a job lot so should be matched (check the link I posted in the opening post)

Matched as in what?  Junk goes with junk?

Seems you all think I've bought a load of crap - I need to mic full rock band - how bad can they be? really?

I'd be surprised if they make it through the night.

Just an FYI - this is a hobby, not a money-making band - playing in pubs and small clubs - surely this will be adequate?

If you don't have the money now for a decent system, start playing (paid) gigs and start saving.  Then buy something that is of reasonable quality, even second-hand, and that has some resale value when you get rid of it (e.g. your old RCF system.) 

In the mean time, find sponsors or negotiate with the club to pay for all or part of PA rental.

John R.

 
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Will Knight on February 14, 2017, 11:27:05 am
Just a word of caution though-- I would strongly urge you to test this system out, with your fully-mic'd band, privately, prior to running at a club "with your name attached to the performance" -- the last thing you want to do is take it out, have it perform poorly, and now even if you DO buy more/better kit, you'll have a "poor sound" stigma attached to your group, and it'll be really hard to get other venues to hire you in.

-Ray

This!
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Justin Addison on February 14, 2017, 11:27:19 am
Just a word of caution though-- I would strongly urge you to test this system out, with your fully-mic'd band, privately, prior to running at a club "with your name attached to the performance" -- the last thing you want to do is take it out, have it perform poorly, and now even if you DO buy more/better kit, you'll have a "poor sound" stigma attached to your group, and it'll be really hard to get other venues to hire you in.

-Ray

Of course that would be done.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Justin Addison on February 14, 2017, 11:30:33 am
Matched as in what?  Junk goes with junk?

Helpful - thanks

I'd be surprised if they make it through the night.

Helpful - thanks

If you don't have the money now for a decent system, start playing (paid) gigs and start saving.  Then buy something that is of reasonable quality, even second-hand, and that has some resale value when you get rid of it (e.g. your old RCF system.) 

In the mean time, find sponsors or negotiate with the club to pay for all or part of PA rental.

John R.

I've just spent the best part of 2k on a Les Paul and Marshall Amp - cashflow is now an issue - also, paid gigs round here don't pay much (lucky if we get 150-200 / gig) which would be split 4 ways

I don't want to joint own anything
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: John Rutirasiri on February 14, 2017, 11:37:23 am
I don't want to joint own anything

When I first started playing, we pooled our money to get a halfway decent used PA.  As I started doing gigs which the band was not involved, I used the jointly-owned gear but paid off each bandmate's investment.  Pretty soon all the gear was paid for, the band members were happy to get money back, we could still use the system for the band, and I owned it.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Benjamin Gingerich on February 14, 2017, 11:40:32 am


I've just spent the best part of 2k on a Les Paul and Marshall Amp - cashflow is now an issue - also, paid gigs round here don't pay much (lucky if we get 150-200 / gig) which would be split 4 ways


It amazes me when people buy top of the line instruments because "they sound amazing". Then purchase audio gear that won't reproduce the sound of the instruments they purchased.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Will Knight on February 14, 2017, 11:48:04 am
I've just spent the best part of 2k on a Les Paul and Marshall Amp - cashflow is now an issue - also, paid gigs round here don't pay much (lucky if we get 150-200 / gig) which would be split 4 ways
I don't want to joint own anything

Justin, please don't take the advice being offered here by members personally.  They have decades of experience, some have gone a similar route that you are now going (I know, I was one of those people 45 years ago), and you will learn - A LOT - AND save $ to boot.

There's an old saying that good news will travel but bad news travels FAST!.  You're band only needs 1 "bad" outing from poor sound to ruin chances for future gigs (unless of course you move out of town).  So stick around, listen and learn and SAVE YOUR $ until you can afford decent equipment.  If you REALLY must use what your purchase, just make sure the volume knob stays around 9.  Higher (Louder?) will in all likelyhood, damage the speakers and you'll be in a worse boat, having unrepairable equipment with zero resale value, and back to "buying again".  As was noted earlier, "Buy Once, Cry Once". 

Good Luck...
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 14, 2017, 11:57:32 am
I've just spent the best part of 2k on a Les Paul and Marshall Amp - cashflow is now an issue - also, paid gigs round here don't pay much (lucky if we get 150-200 / gig) which would be split 4 ways

I don't want to joint own anything
... 5 ways... the sound system gets a cut... right? Or is that just your kind contribution to your fellow band mates, and you're not expecting to recoup your investment?

-Ray
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 14, 2017, 12:32:46 pm
... 5 ways... the sound system gets a cut... right? Or is that just your kind contribution to your fellow band mates, and you're not expecting to recoup your investment?

-Ray
What about the truck to get it there?  It should get a cut.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Scott Olewiler on February 14, 2017, 12:42:05 pm
It amazes me when people buy top of the line instruments because "they sound amazing". Then purchase audio gear that won't reproduce the sound of the instruments they purchased.

I was thinkingg the exact same thing. I can make my Epiphone LP and Roland Cube amp sound every bit as good as 2k worth of guitar/amp to the average listener, but I can't make a cheap PA sound good. 
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: David Allred on February 14, 2017, 12:53:38 pm
2) Dual 15" tops
2) Subs
2) Amps
4) Speakon cables

All for $900?
Are you sure you CAN'T return them? Or just don't want to?  2 powered 12' or 15" speakers (Yorkville, JBL, RCF, EV, Yamaha) can be got for that price new.  The same with a single powered sub, MIGHT could be got used for that price or a tad more.

However, given what you have, the subs have a LPF (high cut filter) so an active cross-over is not REQUIRED.  The Amps have 1/4" in with RCA paralleled (assumed) out.  1/4" from the mixer, into the first amp (doesn't matter which), thin jump RCA out to RCA in on the second amp.  This is really a full range system with low end enhancement.  You might actually blow fewer speakers trying to get enough low end, but if you do blow a speaker, it will likely be several at once.  If a catastrophic event happens, you'll be left with 2khz and up.


Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 14, 2017, 01:02:19 pm

I've just spent the best part of 2k on a Les Paul and Marshall Amp

Hi Justin-

Well mate, that's where your money went.  Now you have a nice personal instrument & rig and a duff PA.  You made your choice about where to invest in perceived quality.

If you were posting on a guitarist forum and had done the opposite, buying a store-branded guitar and amplifier but got a nice RCF PA, you'd get the same response you're getting here.  Just think about that for a moment.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Scott Holtzman on February 14, 2017, 01:23:55 pm
You seem to be looking for someone to justify your purchase.  You are not listening to reason, simply want to believe that you can get all that gear for a price.


You still need mics, stands, cables and a mixer.  That will run you more than you spend on these speakers.


For that price the construction has to be so poor that the chances of them staying assembled during just a single transport seems unlikely.


You were given good advice, return it and get a good powered speaker. 


To then go and boast how much you spent on your guitar gave us another glimpse into your emotional state.


Keep in mind a decent set of Yamaha, QSC or JBL speakers.  Something you can count on is 7 times what you spent.  An inexpensive PA is 3 times what you spent.  The lack of meaningful specs from an unknown brand seals the deal.


Buy a couple of decent used tops such as the recommend EV's and move on.


Or you can do what you want and suffer the consequences of your decision.



Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on February 14, 2017, 01:39:05 pm
Justin,

Since the prices in your link were in English Pounds, I assume you're somewhere in the UK.
If you're near Sheffield, hit me up. I'd be happy to bring a selection of kit over for you to listen to, and also help you set yours up. If you like what your kit does, run with it. If not, you'll have a better idea of what will do what you need.

Chris
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 14, 2017, 01:55:50 pm
Take a look:  https://www.thomann.de/gb/ev_zlx_12p_b_stock.htm

A pair of these and two tripod stands will outrun and outlast the pile you bought for essentially the same money.  The pile can only be ground stacked and any of the energy spewed out will go no farther than the first row of bodies in the audience.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Thomas Le on February 14, 2017, 01:59:17 pm
Wouldn't be surprised if those weak piezo drivers gave way after a few minutes in the gig, whole rig screams cheap amateur DJ. Was there an option to rent instead?
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 14, 2017, 02:56:44 pm
Justin,

Since the prices in your link were in English Pounds, I assume you're somewhere in the UK.
If you're near Sheffield, hit me up. I'd be happy to bring a selection of kit over for you to listen to, and also help you set yours up. If you like what your kit does, run with it. If not, you'll have a better idea of what will do what you need.

Chris

That's very nice of you, Chris.  I hope Justin is able to take up your offer.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: lindsay Dean on February 14, 2017, 03:11:04 pm
Live and Learn,
or live and burn.
 There are people here that have made or avoided
financial audio mistakes with experienced advice.
as the lorax says "you have been warned"
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on February 14, 2017, 03:28:00 pm
Hi Justin-

Well mate, that's where your money went.  Now you have a nice personal instrument & rig and a duff PA.  You made your choice about where to invest in perceived quality.

If you were posting on a guitarist forum and had done the opposite, buying a store-branded guitar and amplifier but got a nice RCF PA, you'd get the same response you're getting here.  Just think about that for a moment.

I like this - nicely put Tim.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Luke Geis on February 14, 2017, 03:31:26 pm
Lets run some hard numbers.

The subs would be very well powered to nearly over powered by the amplifier. The amplifier providing 500 watts to a sub capable of 600 watts peak. The downside is that the sub is only rated for 89 - 94db 1w @1m. Even at the higher 94db 1w / 1m rating, the sub will only be capable of a peak SPL of 121db. This assumes best possible outcomes. If we go by the lower 89db 1w / 1m rating the sub would only be capable of 116db peak!!!!!

What does that mean? If you measured the highest possible output capable from that sub and amp at 1m from the face of the sub, it will only produce between 116db - 121db. The inverse square law says that you will reduce the SPL level by 6db for every doubling of distance. So at 2m the output will drop to between 110db - 115db. The average listener distance to the middle of the dance floor or desired listener area is between 4m - 8m. This is another 6-12db loss in SPL. Leaving you with 104db - 109 db on the high end to 98db - 103db on the low end. The average rock level show is around 105db - 110db. Your subs would barely be able to do this running at full tilt boogie. Your subs would be crying for mercy after only a few songs. Unless you could keep the red light from showing on the amps, you stand a very good chance of blowing the subs in short order and still not have an real usable SPL from them.

Now about those tops. They are actually properly powered by the amp that comes in the system. The mains are capable of 99db at 1w / 1m. This simply means that with the amp stated for them, they are capable of about 127.7db. Following the same rules as before, by the time you get 4m - 8m away, the best possible output from them will be between 109.7db - 115.7db. Your mains would be outrunning your subs considerably.

So while in theory your PA could provide enough volume to do the job, it will only just do so and would be working as hard as it can to do it. This is not ideal and working a PA that hard all the time will significantly shorten its life. This doesn't factor any sort of EQ or processing that may or may not help the situation. This PA comes with little or no help in this regard. You are going to be seeing a LOT of red lights!

To bring things into perspective, you bought an entire PA system that costs less than even one of the single components that make a PA costs from a reputable company! An amp that costs $600 ( roughly the same in Euros ) is pretty common and is at that point considered to be of par for the course. A passive speaker that costs $600 is again still only considered of average, mid level quality. You bought an entire PA for that price, so what level of quality and performance do you think it will be? When you buy a PA you spend the money on two factors. Its quality of sound and its performance. If the money spent is any indicator of either of those two facts, then you got the equivalent of a model car as a it relates to the real thing it is meant to be a copy of.

My advise is return it, sell it, or burn it for heating your house. Either one of those options is better than trying to make this PA do any real work for you. It will make noise, but I wouldn't go on to say much more about it than that. Keep in mind many of us here have heard systems that cost hundreds of times more than this and still aren't chomping at the bit to get it.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 14, 2017, 03:58:21 pm
Luke...

Max SPL for the subs is 94dB as stated...probably the only accurate stat on the page.  The stated frequency range of 20-500hz is really funny and at 22 lbs each for the tops and a bit more for each sub I can't imagine the drivers are at all robust.  The 12" woofers in my old EV S200's nearly outweigh the entire double 15's.

I found a YouTube video "review" of these boxes.  Funny thing is, there' only video...no sound!  But the comments are hilarious if you can read German...and you can probably get it even if you don't.

https://youtu.be/z_-lm1bDeKQ
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Jeff Lelko on February 14, 2017, 04:14:54 pm
One of my roommates in college had something similar to this.  He got it for free (so that gives you an idea of the value/performance), and it was put to better use as the cat's scratching post...
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 14, 2017, 04:20:01 pm
One of my roommates in college had something similar to this.  He got it for free (so that gives you an idea of the value/performance), and it was put to better use as the cat's scratching post...

Are you saying those cabs are for pussies?
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on February 14, 2017, 04:22:01 pm
Are you saying those cabs are for pussies?

 ;D
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Don T. Williams on February 14, 2017, 04:45:40 pm
I briefly sold a brand that claimed to have "professional" products (they displayed at NAMM and NSCA) at what looked like bargain prices.  The subs had cast frame 18's with 4" voice coils.  The cabinets were black rat fur covered plywood but the construction of the first pair I received was such that I added bracing and caulking before even offering them for sale.  The "6000 watt DJ series amp" had a 63 volt power supply!!!  It looked inadequate for a 100 watt powered mixer.  I refused to sell the amp and gave it away to a church to drive nursery speaker.  I wasn't worried about deafening babies.

A DJ customer loved the dual 18 subs because they were big and cheap.  I ordered him a second pair but stated there was absolutely no warranty from me.  He would have to deal with the manufacturer as I would not carry their products again due to workmanship. 

Without reading the rest, you know the story.  The second pair had problems and he blamed me for selling them when he got no service from the factory (which is in California).  I'm glad I had it in writing, but the customer didn't come back, and I don't really blame him.

I hope you have better luck, but "professional" for home DJ equipment is a nothing at all like pro audio.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 14, 2017, 04:47:43 pm
;D

Well, we finally have the answer on the question of how to remove carpeting from PA cabs:

CATS!  Lots of cats!!!
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 14, 2017, 05:13:53 pm
I like this - nicely put Tim.

Thanks, Debbie!

He has a limited budget and decided to spend on the stuff that was most important to him as a player in the band.  Long term I think buying a Les Paul and Marshall amp will bring him more personal satisfaction.

How his decision plays with we of the unwashed forum masses depends on which forum the question is in.

Or as was stated in Tea House of the August Moon, "Pornography question of geography." (full quote below)

"World filled with delightful variation.
Example:
In Okinawa, no locks on doors.
Bad manners not to trust neighbors.
In America, lock and key big industry.
Conclusion: Bad manners, good business.
Another example:
In Okinawa, wash self in public bath
with nude lady quite proper...
...but a picture of nude lady
in private home quite improper.
In America, statue of nude lady in park
win prize...
...but nude lady in flesh in park
win a penalty.
Conclusion:
Pornography, question of geography
."
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Stephen Kirby on February 14, 2017, 06:02:19 pm
Wouldn't be surprised if those weak piezo drivers gave way after a few minutes in the gig, whole rig screams cheap amateur DJ. Was there an option to rent instead?
Actually, piezos are fairly robust, especially as compared to cheap stamped frame subs.  Looking at the efficiency specs I'm guessing that the VC gap is fairly large and the magnet is pretty weak.  Makes for cheap, but while a large gap takes more power (a 1000W car door speaker!) to make any noise, you don't get much noise for all the amplifier you feed into it.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Ivan Beaver on February 14, 2017, 07:25:53 pm
Lets run some hard numbers.

The subs would be very well powered to nearly over powered by the amplifier. The amplifier providing 500 watts to a sub capable of 600 watts peak. The downside is that the sub is only rated for 89 - 94db 1w @1m. Even at the higher 94db 1w / 1m rating, the sub will only be capable of a peak SPL of 121db. This assumes best possible outcomes. If we go by the lower 89db 1w / 1m rating the sub would only be capable of 116db peak!!!!!

What does that mean? If you measured the highest possible output capable from that sub and amp at 1m from the face of the sub, it will only produce between 116db - 121db. The inverse square law says that you will reduce the SPL level by 6db for every doubling of distance. So at 2m the output will drop to between 110db - 115db. The average listener distance to the middle of the dance floor or desired listener area is between 4m - 8m. This is another 6-12db loss in SPL. Leaving you with 104db - 109 db on the high end to 98db - 103db on the low end. The average rock level show is around 105db - 110db. Your subs would barely be able to do this running at full tilt boogie.
There is a little error in your math.

You are quoting PEAK outputs, NOT what people would actually MEASURE or perceive.

You need to subtract at least 10dB (generally closer to 15dB) from your numbers to get "perceived" level.

So it gets even worse.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Dennis Wiggins on February 14, 2017, 07:32:51 pm
Hi All, I am new here - I will introduce my self first:
I was a mobile DJ running and active RCF setup for the loudspeakers which I loved but unfortunately had to sell on when I hung up my headphones.

Anyway, many years later (now to be precise) I am starting my old live band up again and delving in to the realms of passive speaker setups (on a bit of a budget really) but want most power I can from the setup I can afford.

I opted for this (hope links are allowed): http://www.hifi-tower.co.uk/PA-System-Summer-Nights-II-3500W-Dual-15-Inch-Speakers-Bass-Bins-Amplifiers-DJ-Disco_i5649.htm

And also purchased a Soundcraft EFX12 mixer.

Right, onto my question:
Can I run both amps (Sytec SKY1500II & Skytec SKY2000II) from my mixing desk - if so, do I need any special cables/connectors?

Then I want to run 2x8ohm speakers from each amp (2 tops & 2 subs). Can I just switch the amp to Bridge mode, then go from amp CH1 to speaker, then speaker to speaker (I assume this will generate 4 ohms).

Then do the same for the subs?

So effectively I will be using 1 channel on each amp.

I hope this makes sense - just so you know the amp and speakers have speakon connectors.

Sorry for waffling - any help would be appreciated (also, this seup is already purchased so suggestions for other makes/models won't be very helpful.

Thanks
Justin

Whew!  Talk about "blowin' up your phone"!  I'm joining late...  The general line here is that many have admitted to (and many have not) how their first (or second) "dream" system turned out.  I was was among the self-proclaimed "audiophiles" of the '70s - TAS, and all;). It doesn't matter when you join (or re-join) the foray, but I hope all here make you feel welcomed.  I am constantly re-inventing, sometimes with "old stuff", sometimes with new.  When you ask about re-use of old "anything" beside amplifiers. you will get "schlonged". 

Have fun, but use your ears wisely and respect your back, as you will need them both (well, all 3) for a very long time. 

My advice, here, is: take it outside, set it up, and CRANK it.  You will get the feedback (pun intended) that you are asking for.

-Dennis

<edit>  If you can make it sound good outside, it will probably sound great inside, AND you will understand what "headroom " means.  Most don't.

-D
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Scott Holtzman on February 14, 2017, 08:20:19 pm
Whew!  Talk about "blowin' up your phone"!  I'm joining late...  The general line here is that many have admitted to (and many have not) how their first (or second) "dream" system turned out.  I was was among the self-proclaimed "audiophiles" of the '70s - TAS, and all;). It doesn't matter when you join (or re-join) the foray, but I hope all here make you feel welcomed.  I am constantly re-inventing, sometimes with "old stuff", sometimes with new.  When you ask about re-use of old "anything" beside amplifiers. you will get "schlonged". 

Have fun, but use your ears wisely and respect your back, as you will need them both (well, all 3) for a very long time. 

My advice, here, is: take it outside, set it up, and CRANK it.  You will get the feedback (pun intended) that you are asking for.

-Dennis

<edit>  If you can make it sound good outside, it will probably sound great inside, AND you will understand what "headroom " means.  Most don't.

-D


$10 bucks says he never comes back.  The truth, you can't handle the truth!


He just wanted use to stroke his stuff and tell him what a nice system he bought.  1/2 the new posters want validation not advice.  If they wanted advice they would have asked first.





Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 14, 2017, 08:24:21 pm
Link to video of powered version of said speakers:

https://youtu.be/73ap4mxg3RY

Someone went to the trouble of actually testing/measuring the passive models:  80W RMS, 160W peak
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Jeff Lelko on February 14, 2017, 08:59:01 pm
1/2 the new posters want validation not advice.  If they wanted advice they would have asked first.

Isn't that the truth!  I'd say another fair percentage honestly asks for advice but gets highly discouraged when they realize they won't get professional-grade performance without paying a professional price.  The thing is, we all started somewhere.  Most of us couldn't start out buying pro-grade equipment either, but that's where the all important business plan comes in.  What investments present growth potential, which jobs warrant pay-to-play purchases, how do I minimize "disposable equipment" purchases just to build sufficient inventory, etc.  It's this that really defines the business portion of, well, the business!  Many just want to buy shiny, cool-looking gear for their garage band but can't grasp the business end of things...and thus can't budget/afford/justify the purchase of "real" pro audio equipment (and then crash and burn, literally, when trying to push Best Buy or Radio Shack speakers way beyond their intended use).   
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Jeff Lelko on February 14, 2017, 09:05:29 pm
Link to video of powered version of said speakers:

https://youtu.be/73ap4mxg3RY

Someone went to the trouble of actually testing/measuring the passive models:  80W RMS, 160W peak

Wow, the speakers come with flashing lights too?!?  Man, I got ripped off then...  My QSC boxes only have a single tiny blue LED on the front and I must have paid like ten times the price for that!
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Benjamin Gingerich on February 14, 2017, 09:27:34 pm
Wow, the speakers come with flashing lights too?!?  Man, I got ripped off then...  My QSC boxes only have a single tiny blue LED on the front and I must have paid like ten times the price for that!
I wonder if he set the lights on those to indicate their clipping?  ;)
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Russ Davis on February 15, 2017, 01:21:49 am
From the same source, here's a rig with FOUR of those wretched cabinets (and 2 microphones!) for
699.90 delivered.  If he'd gone this route, we could be explaining comb filtering to him when he asked about splaying the cabinets vs. stacking them.   ;D http://www.hifi-tower.co.uk/DJ-PA-Set-Bass-First-Pro-Bluetooth-2x-Amp-4-x-Boxes-Mixer-4000W_i33650.htm
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Justin Addison on February 15, 2017, 04:17:46 am

$10 bucks says he never comes back.  The truth, you can't handle the truth!


He just wanted use to stroke his stuff and tell him what a nice system he bought.  1/2 the new posters want validation not advice.  If they wanted advice they would have asked first.

What a load of.... I'll take that $10 bucks please - I'll put it towards my new speakers.

I've taken everything you've all said (not including the rude replys) and have emailed hifi-tower to cancel the order and get a refund.

I am probably going to go for RCF 715A's in the end - a bit more cash but understand what you are all saying and I have good and fond experience/memories with my old RCF system.

These speakers are rated at 700W RMS with 130db SPL each - so pretty loud I think.
I'll probably invest in a sub (maybe 2) at some point - I think the new RCF ones are 1000W.

Thanks for all your positive comments.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on February 15, 2017, 06:34:48 am
Those RCFs are a solid choice. Nice work.

Don't worry so much about SPL and power ratings. The SPL ratings are usually a rating of the loudest sound you'll get out of the box and have it survive. Whether it sounds any good when pushed is something you'll need to read reviews (or find independent measurements) for.
Power ratings on their own don't tell you much, either. A 97dB@1w speaker with 100w input will be the same volume as a 87dB@1w speaker with 1000w input. Except the 97dB speaker will be comfortably playing all night while the 87dB@1w speaker goes into serious power compression and might burn out entirely.

3dB difference is a 2-fold power increase. 10dB is 10x power.

If you're going to add subs down the road, 12" tops are smaller, cheaper, lighter, and will be nicer through the midrange than the 15"s. The 15"s will do more bass on their own, though.

Chris
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: David Allred on February 15, 2017, 07:18:06 am
What a load of.... I'll take that $10 bucks please - I'll put it towards my new speakers.

I've taken everything you've all said (not including the rude replys) and have emailed hifi-tower to cancel the order and get a refund.

I am probably going to go for RCF 715A's in the end -

Thanks for all your positive comments.

It can get snippy here.  The content was spot on, but at times the message was delivered in such a way that fight or flight is encouraged. 
Wise decision, on your part, to listen to the message.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 15, 2017, 08:17:50 am
What a load of.... I'll take that $10 bucks please - I'll put it towards my new speakers.

I've taken everything you've all said (not including the rude replys) and have emailed hifi-tower to cancel the order and get a refund.

I am probably going to go for RCF 715A's in the end - a bit more cash but understand what you are all saying and I have good and fond experience/memories with my old RCF system.

These speakers are rated at 700W RMS with 130db SPL each - so pretty loud I think.
I'll probably invest in a sub (maybe 2) at some point - I think the new RCF ones are 1000W.

Thanks for all your positive comments.

Yup, that $10 should be yours.

You'll be better off with the RCF's (actually almost ANYTHING would be better than those other things) but you've got to forget about watts.  You've finally gotten an SPL rating, and while SPL figures can be iffy, watts say NOTHING about rated output without knowing the sensitivity of the box and the power of your amplifier.  Any calculated SPL will still be somewhat of a ballpark figure depending on the accuracy of the data input into the formula.

Good luck getting back into the game on the live side.  It'll be a LOT different than the DJ side.  And thanks for the laughs.  I'd never have found those YouTube vids on my own.  The German guys comments were hilarious.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Jay Barracato on February 15, 2017, 08:23:43 am
What a load of.... I'll take that $10 bucks please - I'll put it towards my new speakers.

I've taken everything you've all said (not including the rude replys) and have emailed hifi-tower to cancel the order and get a refund.

I am probably going to go for RCF 715A's in the end - a bit more cash but understand what you are all saying and I have good and fond experience/memories with my old RCF system.

These speakers are rated at 700W RMS with 130db SPL each - so pretty loud I think.
I'll probably invest in a sub (maybe 2) at some point - I think the new RCF ones are 1000W.

Thanks for all your positive comments.
Just so you can think about the future, I have my little pa on my truck from a bluegrass show for 150 people.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170215/c9f057eccd70de26f352af01d7613c80.jpg)

I am running a pair of qsc k10's for FOH, and a pair of k10's for sidefills monitors. ( The installed raws are not in use). I had a guest mixer that night who preferred the mixwiz to my usual 01v.

Everything but the speaker stands are cased. I have about $2000 invested in the cases.

I am running power from 2 wall outlets ( no distribution) and have about $500 in cable and quad boxes. Add a 50 foot 16 channel snake and signal and stage xlr, another $500.

5 sm58 and 5 sm57 as a basic mic package is another $1000. Stands another $500.

As you can see, it is the little details that can run up the total investment.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 15, 2017, 08:40:30 am
What a load of.... I'll take that $10 bucks please - I'll put it towards my new speakers.

Yup, that $10 should be yours.
PM me your address. I'll send you 10 right now. :)

I am probably going to go for RCF 715A's in the end - a bit more cash but understand what you are all saying and I have good and fond experience/memories with my old RCF system.

These speakers are rated at 700W RMS with 130db SPL each - so pretty loud I think.
I'll probably invest in a sub (maybe 2) at some point - I think the new RCF ones are 1000W.

Thanks for all your positive comments.
Glad you're sticking around! Let's build you up a kick ass bar rig.

-Ray
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Lance Hallmark on February 15, 2017, 10:20:24 am
The RCFs will be a good choice for sure. You could also check the local used market and find some deals as well. When getting back into PA, I found a deal for a pair of EV SX200, cables & two Ultimate Support stands for $200.00! Added an amp for $100 and eventually a used Yorkville LS800p sub for another $900.00. All in for $1200 for a system that gets plenty loud and sounds great. I still use it for smaller gigs. Good Luck!
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Robert Lofgren on February 15, 2017, 10:24:25 am
If you will add a sub fairly soon, may I suggest the 712 instead of the 715.

The 712 has a really good low end and with punch and I've used them with 5pc rockband without a sub. Granted that the bass player used his rig while still sneaking in some of it in the PA.

The 712 will generally give you slightly better sounding vox compared to the 715.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: jesseweiss on February 15, 2017, 10:40:29 am
I'll jump in really late as a weekend warrior band member who runs our own PA and also barely gets paid, I feel the OP's pain.

Good choice for the RCF's.  You'll definitely get good sound. I would run mostly vocals with light guitars/drums until you get a sub otherwise it could get muddy.

We run Mackie SRM stuff (just mid-range) but adding an 18" sub and moving to a digital mixer (XR18) has made a big improvement in our sound compared to just the 12" tops.  To say nothing of the jump up from Behringer powered 12s only before that.

If you can find the funds later, sub first then I'd look into a digital mixer.  The EQ, compression, routing, etc... you get is just awesome.  We have an XR18, but if you don't have too many channels you could use an XR16 which isn't too pricey.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Scott Holtzman on February 15, 2017, 10:42:41 am
What a load of.... I'll take that $10 bucks please - I'll put it towards my new speakers.



Do you have Paypal?


That wasn't about you but forum users in general. 


Those are solid choices you mentioned but the numbers don't tell the whole story. 


Good luck
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Justin Addison on February 15, 2017, 11:03:36 am
Do you have Paypal?

jaddison68@googlemail.com  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on February 15, 2017, 11:15:08 am
jaddison68@googlemail.com  ;D ;D ;D

You turned it around Justin - you have my respect!
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 15, 2017, 12:05:03 pm
You turned it around Justin - you have my respect!

Aw, you've just got a soft spot for Limeys, Brit-gal.

BTW, I've got the crock pot and 2 of the 4 stove burners going.  Nothing in the oven...yet.

Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on February 15, 2017, 12:16:05 pm
Aw, you've just got a soft spot for Limeys, Brit-gal.

BTW, I've got the crock pot and 2 of the 4 stove burners going.  Nothing in the oven...yet.

I gotsta look out for my homies.....

I knew you were cooking... I could smell good smells from here.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Michael Grimaila on February 15, 2017, 01:26:46 pm
Wow, the speakers come with flashing lights too?!?  Man, I got ripped off then...  My QSC boxes only have a single tiny blue LED on the front and I must have paid like ten times the price for that!

I just about spit my drink out when I read this....  Thanks for making me smile!
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Scott Holtzman on February 15, 2017, 01:31:23 pm
jaddison68@googlemail.com  ;D ;D ;D


Done, as Deb said you saw the light.  Enjoy a pint on me in celebration and best luck on your new journey.



Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 15, 2017, 02:20:39 pm

Done, as Deb said you saw the light.  Enjoy a pint on me in celebration and best luck on your new journey.
I actually have some British pound notes here; I could have physically mailed one. :)

-Ray
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on February 15, 2017, 02:23:53 pm
I actually have some British pound notes here; I could have physically mailed one. :)

-Ray

It wouldn't be worth anything Ray - they stopped using pound notes many many years ago!!
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on February 15, 2017, 02:26:16 pm
It wouldn't be worth anything Ray - they stopped using pound notes many many years ago!!

Actually I just read that they can still be used ( redeemed at banks) even though replaced by the coin in 1988...
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Stephen Kirby on February 15, 2017, 02:42:04 pm
That's gotta be a first for my time here.  OP buys a flea market disco system, board jumps down their throat, and after the typical defending of the purchase the OP sees the light, cancels it and buys usable stuff.  I've seen it go the other way so many times I just checked in to this thread to see if there was a conclusion.

Kudos to Justin for putting the purchase confirmation behind him and doing the right thing.  I'd wager he did other research than just this board, but if folks here saved one person from buying a pile of firewood it's a great thing.

Maybe next time folks will go gentler and hope for the best.  And Justin can chime in with his story, it might make it easier to swallow for the next person going down that road.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 15, 2017, 02:59:36 pm
It wouldn't be worth anything Ray - they stopped using pound notes many many years ago!!
These are 10 and 20 notes-- I don't have any 1 notes. Of course, I understand that it'd be like me saying "I have some american dollar bills." and you'd assume I meant singles. I guess I should have said, "I have some UK currency here." Sowwy!

Replaced completely in 1988; the 1 coin has been out since they went decimal, I believe. I have 6 of those coins right now- and I need to ditch them before October, when they will become worthless. That's why I appreciate US currency and the whole "our tender will be valid forever" concept!

 -Ray
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: lindsay Dean on February 15, 2017, 03:07:43 pm
EXCEPT for the Behringer consoles and rack mount mixers, ethernet stage boxes and direct boxes,
you would do well to pass on their other offerings.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on February 15, 2017, 03:19:47 pm
I appreciate US currency and the whole "our tender will be valid forever" concept!

 -Ray

Remember Ozymandias...
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Jeff Lelko on February 15, 2017, 05:49:55 pm
Justin, I'm glad that you took our advice and got your money back before it was too late!  We really are a nice group of people, though sometimes our help comes in a tough love sort of fashion.  Before you spend your money again, it might help to think about the end goal of your system.  What do you ultimately want to do with it?  Yes, the pair of speakers will be your first purchase, but planning the entire system out before spending any money will help to make sure you get the best bang to buck and ensure the end product is what you actually need.  It's perfectly okay that you can't budget the entire expense at one time.  While I don't think a formal business plan would be necessary for your band, maybe a nice roadmap of future purchases would go a long ways.

So...what kinds of events do you plan on playing?  How many people regularly attend?  200, or 2000?  Are these events usually indoors or outdoors?  Are we talking coffee shop volume or blow-your-brains-out rock concert volumes?  Figuring this part out first will make sure you buy the right equipment that can really grow with you.  Start by picking your tops, but more than likely you'll want subs at some point too.  If so, how quickly you'd be able to buy those too might help you decide between a single 12 or a single 15 for your tops.

As others have said, there are plenty of other hidden expenses associated with live sound.  Just starting out, it's important to spend your hard earned money where it really matters (like getting good speakers).  Things like mics, stands, and cases can usually be skimped on at first until you need/want to go back and do it right.  A rough plan to build your system will help really ensure you get the most for your money and limit the sidestep or disposable purchases.  We're here to help you, so let us know your needs and you'll have no shortage of advice! 
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Scott Holtzman on February 15, 2017, 06:10:17 pm

Quote
[/size]Things like mics, stands, and cases can usually be skimped on at first until you need/want to go back and do it right.
[/size]

[/size]
[/size]Amen to that.  My first modern system was a set of KW122 and KW181's and an X32 Producer, a few mic stands, 4 58's, 3 58's a Beta 52 and some cables. 
[/size]
Figure about a 10k system.  Three years later I have double that just in cases and material handling.  I am sure we have 5k in mic and speaker stands.  That doesn't even begin to count the heavy lifts.

$100 case to carry a $75.00 item may seem silly until you break 10 of them.  If you run your gear every weekend picking out speakers will quickly fade from your mind and the job of safely and quickly transporting and setting up the system will become job 1.

Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 15, 2017, 06:35:08 pm
$100 case to carry a $75.00 item may seem silly until you break 10 of them.  If you run your gear every weekend picking out speakers will quickly fade from your mind and the job of safely and quickly transporting and setting up the system will become job 1.
And those are cheap ones. Just the second half of 2016, I spent over $10k on 18 new cases of various kinds - amp/wireless racks, a rigging trunk (with spaces for my short frames), double wedge packs, double VRX packs, and some general utility trunks. $425 was the *cheapest* case I bought.... upwards to $700 or so on the top end. But, worth it. I have some of my older VRX boxes that look like shit because they were just free ballin' in the truck all the time. The damage potential as well as the decreased efficiency when loading in/out of a show (and see comments like this (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,162477.0.html) where the client NOTICES the little details!!) makes that expenditure worth it... but still, it sucked!

I know you won't be spending that kind of cheddar on cases, Justin, but still, keeping in mind the ability to safeguard your investment is a really good choice!

-Ray
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Tom Roche on February 15, 2017, 07:31:51 pm
I like happy endings.  ;D
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on February 15, 2017, 08:39:57 pm
These are 10 and 20 notes-- I don't have any 1 notes. Of course, I understand that it'd be like me saying "I have some american dollar bills." and you'd assume I meant singles. I guess I should have said, "I have some UK currency here." Sowwy!

Replaced completely in 1988; the 1 coin has been out since they went decimal, I believe. I have 6 of those coins right now- and I need to ditch them before October, when they will become worthless. That's why I appreciate US currency and the whole "our tender will be valid forever" concept!

 -Ray

The pound note ran for 17 years after decimalization.. The UK went to base 10 in 1971... Not that I know that personally - my mum told me !
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 15, 2017, 08:43:07 pm
So to be precise, it's been out for 33 years, according to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_pound_(British_coin)). I knew decimilsation happened in the 70s; and I keep thinking that's "about 30 years ago." Haha.

-r



edit: appears that the proper English spelling of 'decimilsation' is with an 's,' and since we're talking about THEIR process, might as well honor that. :)
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Will Knight on February 15, 2017, 10:18:09 pm
edit: appears that the proper English spelling of 'decimilsation' is with an 's,' and since we're talking about THEIR process, might as well honor that. :)
[/quote]

Since you're referencing "British" English, don't you mean "honour" ? ;) :)
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Ray Aberle on February 15, 2017, 11:17:11 pm
edit: appears that the proper English spelling of 'decimilsation' is with an 's,' and since we're talking about THEIR process, might as well honor that. :)


Since you're referencing "British" English, don't you mean "honour" ? ;) :)
No, because when I wrote "honor," I was speaking from the POV of an American, seeking to recognize the British. So, it's appropriate to use American spellings to indicate my POV as a American even though I was previously talking about English terms.

-Ray
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Luke Geis on February 15, 2017, 11:59:45 pm
There is a little error in your math.

You are quoting PEAK outputs, NOT what people would actually MEASURE or perceive.

You need to subtract at least 10dB (generally closer to 15dB) from your numbers to get "perceived" level.

So it gets even worse.

Well the math was correct, but the real number that could actually be expected would be wrong. I did say at best though :)

I didn't go into my normal scheme of math where I deduct 10db for crest factor and another 6db to arrive at the true real world probable outcome that has any sort of safety net. I didn't really have to though as by the time you take another 16db off those numbers you could just as well have used a megaphone as a PA. The good news is the OP seems to have returned the stuff and gotten a real set of speakers!!!!!!

Justin,

    While it may seem that we were bagging on you, the truth is we are looking out for you. The easiest way to make someone reconsider their decision is to make fun of and in essence bash away at them about it. Rude perhaps, ineffective, also perhaps? 7 out of 10 times though, we get a guy such as yourself that comes in here with the exact same scenario and blows our recommendations off as if we are being posh, or bougie. Many of us actually deal with a great number of different PA systems every year ranging from the stuff you looked at getting, to as good as money can buy. There is a difference and the reason we suggest otherwise despite budget is because the purchase of such gear drags us all down a little. Another thing to consider is that the purchase of that stuff further allows companies like them to continue to sell crap to those that don't know better.

The music equipment industry is very much like the guitar and music instrument industry. There are some really cheap crap out there that is not worth even the sum of all its parts. There are a few hidden gems, but they are far and few between. You get what you pay for. This is not the PA you are looking for........ Good on your for changing paths and getting something of value. It was a wise decision.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Justin Addison on February 16, 2017, 04:49:49 am

Done, as Deb said you saw the light.  Enjoy a pint on me in celebration and best luck on your new journey.

Many many thanks - such a kind gesture - I'll buy that pint in sumer when I can enjoy it more in the sunshine lol.

I had to buy the RCF's on 12 months interest free credit with a 200 deposit. I can't get a refund on the hifi tower stuff until it is back in their warehouse. I asked for delivery on 27th - I will refuse it at the door and return to sender (there's a song in there lol) - they asked me to do that, when I get the money back, I will pay off the RCF's (or buy some more gear - I have one SM58 and mic stand but may need a few more bits and bobs (SM57, low stand).

Just FYI - I have bought a flight case for my new Soundcraft EFX12 - cost just over 100 and looks pretty tough.

As for the British currency - yes we went decimal in 1971 - the year I was born :)


[Edit] - I do have a slight confession to make - I came across hifi-tower by running a google search fo "cheap pa system"

In hindsight - I should have guessed - cheap and nasty!
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Justin Addison on February 16, 2017, 08:01:11 am
OK, another question now I have my tops.

What Active Sub would you recommend - looking at possibly an 18" sub - depending on price maybe just one.

Budget is around 600-800 so looks like RCF is a no go.

Please bear in mind I am in UK so no links to USA - Thomann could be an option before Brexit hits lol
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on February 16, 2017, 09:09:45 am
OK, another question now I have my tops.

What Active Sub would you recommend - looking at possibly an 18" sub - depending on price maybe just one.

Budget is around 600-800 so looks like RCF is a no go.

Please bear in mind I am in UK so no links to USA - Thomann could be an option before Brexit hits lol

If you're willing to go used, you might get a bargain. I haven't tried any of these models myself, but they're all known brand and will likely be solid. I'll let the other users that have heard these models weigh in on the specifics. I've come across the KSub in passing, but not hammered one myself.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jbl-518s-eon-active-subs-subwoofer-bass-bins-with-covers-pair-2x-/172528448373?hash=item282b7f3375:g:rPQAAOSwA3dYj1Ip
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-DSR118W-18-Active-PA-Subwoofer-/272551652870?hash=item3f75582e06:g:HXQAAOSw32lYnLW2
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QSC-K-Sub-1000-watt-active-bass-speaker-/112304608794?hash=item1a25e0561a:g:IiQAAOSwTglYk39j

Chris
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: David Allred on February 16, 2017, 10:04:43 am

Justin,

    While it may seem that we were bagging on you, the truth is we are looking out for you. The easiest way to make someone reconsider their decision is to make fun of and in essence bash away at them about it.
The truth can be given without the implied "uppitiness" that sometimes happens, leading into the personal.

Southern hospitality protocol should be followed if it would likely offend the recipient. 
"That is the worse PA system I have ever heard.... Bless your heart."
"You are an idiot for buying that speaker... Bless your heart."
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on February 16, 2017, 10:21:52 am
The truth can be given without the implied "uppitiness" that sometimes happens, leading into the personal.

Southern hospitality protocol should be followed if it would likely offend the recipient. 
"That is the worse PA system I have ever heard.... Bless your heart."
"You are an idiot for buying that speaker... Bless your heart."

Or ..the inimitable "LOL"
"That is the worse PA system I have ever heard  - LOL"
" You are an idiot for buying that speaker - LOL"
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on February 16, 2017, 10:35:34 am
If you're willing to go used, you might get a bargain. I haven't tried any of these models myself, but they're all known brand and will likely be solid. I'll let the other users that have heard these models weigh in on the specifics. I've come across the KSub in passing, but not hammered one myself.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jbl-518s-eon-active-subs-subwoofer-bass-bins-with-covers-pair-2x-/172528448373?hash=item282b7f3375:g:rPQAAOSwA3dYj1Ip
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-DSR118W-18-Active-PA-Subwoofer-/272551652870?hash=item3f75582e06:g:HXQAAOSw32lYnLW2
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QSC-K-Sub-1000-watt-active-bass-speaker-/112304608794?hash=item1a25e0561a:g:IiQAAOSwTglYk39j

Chris

The K sub is a very disappointing box. I owned one for 5 minutes and was completely underwhelmed. Over priced and underperforming -IMHO.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Lance Hallmark on February 16, 2017, 11:12:16 am
The K sub is a very disappointing box. I owned one for 5 minutes and was completely underwhelmed. Over priced and underperforming -IMHO.

+1
No on the K-Sub!

The EV ZXa1 subs are small and light. Don't go really low but for small gigs they should do fine. Bigger is the EKX 15" sub, a good compromise between value/performance. I would also look at used, as long as you can test it out before exchanging money.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Nathan Riddle on February 16, 2017, 11:47:02 am
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QSC-K-Sub-1000-watt-active-bass-speaker-/112304608794?hash=item1a25e0561a:g:IiQAAOSwTglYk39j
Chris

DO NOT GET THE KSUB!!!!! Get the KW sub :)

I'm sure you could find RCF subs used. Check buy-n sell on facebook, or gearsource, etc. You just gotta be patient.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 16, 2017, 01:17:41 pm
If you're willing to go used, you might get a bargain. I haven't tried any of these models myself, but they're all known brand and will likely be solid. I'll let the other users that have heard these models weigh in on the specifics. I've come across the KSub in passing, but not hammered one myself.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jbl-518s-eon-active-subs-subwoofer-bass-bins-with-covers-pair-2x-/172528448373?hash=item282b7f3375:g:rPQAAOSwA3dYj1Ip
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yamaha-DSR118W-18-Active-PA-Subwoofer-/272551652870?hash=item3f75582e06:g:HXQAAOSw32lYnLW2
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/QSC-K-Sub-1000-watt-active-bass-speaker-/112304608794?hash=item1a25e0561a:g:IiQAAOSwTglYk39j

Chris

Of those 3 choices I think the Yamaha would have the most satisfying output level.  I've not heard the K-Sub but it got enough negative reviews when compared to other subs that I'll take the testimony of those reviewers.  I never liked the EON subs.  I think it's the cabinet resonances that make it sound really, really 'funny' to me.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Robert Lofgren on February 16, 2017, 02:12:12 pm
If you got the 715 instead of the 712, run those speakers and see if you actually need a sub.

I would be able to do a normal bar gig with my 712 and not miss a sub particularly much.

Also, keep in mind that those 715 are dsp controlled so you may or may not have to delay compensate in the crossover region due to the dsp latency.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Stephen Kirby on February 16, 2017, 02:24:48 pm
Because the construction of the box and the quality of the driver matter so much, subs are one thing you can't really cheap out on.  While it seems like every rig described here involves a sub, for a live band in smaller venues it's not always necessary, and often muddies up the proceedings.  Tell the drummer to take the laundry out of the kick drum and let it ring a bit.  It might sound a bit funny by itself but it will carry the beat into the mix much better.  I have a KickPort in my drum and it actually works.  Un-mice'd in a pub I lay an Evans pillow thing in the middle of the bottom of the shell but not touching either head.  It's just there to damp the pipe resonance from the 18" deep shell.  Powerstroke heads which have very little damping compared to SuperKicks or EMADs.  Recording or mic'd up it's different but you'd be surprised how a well tuned kick drum can carry without a sub.  Rock bands did it for years when rock was invented.

My advice, get good tops so you can hear the vocals.  That's what most people respond to.  As you save up and the band gets better gigs, then get one good single 18 subs.  The KW or PRX XLF get good marks here.

I've heard the K-subs once but they weren't being pushed and it was in a well designed theater where the bass sounds pretty good with just about anything.  They weren't as one-notey as I expected but there are enough better choices out there.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Nathan Riddle on February 16, 2017, 02:25:04 pm
Of those 3 choices I think the Yamaha would have the most satisfying output level.  I've not heard the K-Sub but it got enough negative reviews when compared to other subs that I'll take the testimony of those reviewers.  I never liked the EON subs.  I think it's the cabinet resonances that make it sound really, really 'funny' to me.

I have heard the 15" Yamaha subs...wow; those are quite amazing for their size. 2x of those keep up with 4x HPR 18" subs or 2x LAB subs. [Widely spaced, same room, same-ish genre music. I'm sure coupled center it would be different.]
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 16, 2017, 02:31:37 pm
I have heard the 15" Yamaha subs...wow; those are quite amazing for their size. 2x of those keep up with 4x HPR 18" subs or 2x LAB subs. [Widely spaced, same room, same-ish genre music. I'm sure coupled center it would be different.]

Consider that Tom D's LABhorn sub was designed to be used in blocks of at least 3 units (the larger mouth area flattens the frequency response) and I'd say that's not a valid comparison because of the difference between the designs.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Nathan Riddle on February 16, 2017, 03:50:16 pm
Consider that Tom D's LABhorn sub was designed to be used in blocks of at least 3 units (the larger mouth area flattens the frequency response) and I'd say that's not a valid comparison because of the difference between the designs.

I agree, which is why I gave a setting for the comparison. The LABhorn's were being used somewhat incorrectly.

I was just commenting how I've heard 3 different types of subs in the same venue, with same content, with same basic layout and how they compare. If that wasn't useful information, sorry.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 16, 2017, 04:03:14 pm
I agree, which is why I gave a setting for the comparison. The LABhorn's were being used somewhat incorrectly.

I was just commenting how I've heard 3 different types of subs in the same venue, with same content, with same basic layout and how they compare. If that wasn't useful information, sorry.

It's an "ear of the beholder" thing, Nathan.  If the bumpy response of the LABhorn in singles tended to favor the program material I put through them it would give an unfair impression against subs with flatter response; the person who then used the LABhorn with different material would go WTF, Nathan is crazy! (even though you aren't).

Toss in that one guys "free DBs" is another mans excessive harmonic distortion - it's all subjective.  That's why in my comment about the EON subs I said "sounds funny to me" and identified what I think might be making unpleasant to my sense of what subs should sound like.

In this instance I was pointing out why the comparison of horns designed for use in multiples will not sound the same used in singles and that comparing a 24cuft horn to a 6cuft front loaded or bandpass design is an apples-to-oranges thing.  Been there, done that, left the shirt.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Nathan Riddle on February 16, 2017, 04:07:42 pm
It's an "ear of the beholder" thing, Nathan.  If the bumpy response of the LABhorn in singles tended to favor the program material I put through them it would give an unfair impression against subs with flatter response; the person who then used the LABhorn with different material would go WTF, Nathan is crazy! (even though you aren't).

Toss in that one guys "free DBs" is another mans excessive harmonic distortion - it's all subjective.  That's why in my comment about the EON subs I said "sounds funny to me" and identified what I think might be making unpleasant to my sense of what subs should sound like.

In this instance I was pointing out why the comparison of horns designed for use in multiples will not sound the same used in singles and that comparing a 24cuft horn to a 6cuft front loaded or bandpass design is an apples-to-oranges thing.  Been there, done that, left the shirt.

That makes sense, thanks for setting me straight. :)

In the LAB Horn's defense, it did sound better IMO. Though there are 1000's of factors; so not really a useful spec.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 16, 2017, 11:41:12 pm
That makes sense, thanks for setting me straight. :)

In the LAB Horn's defense, it did sound better IMO. Though there are 1000's of factors; so not really a useful spec.

Writing or speaking about sound is like describing a rainbow to the blind.  Nathan Lively said it well:  sound is hard because it's invisible.  At any rate this is why critical listening and auditioning of gear is terribly important.  When 2 sets of otherwise identical 'simple number' specifications for 2 different speakers can still sound very different there's no way to represent that on paper...
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Geert Friedhof on February 17, 2017, 07:28:01 am
Since you got the ART 715, i would save up for a single RCF sub 708-AS II, crossed at 80 Hz, or better the new pro 8003-AS II. Nothing less. No sense in buying a 15" sub. Then get a second one. You will end up with a very decent set, capable enough for bigger rooms. In the mean time think about hiring sub(s) when needed.

Remember: Buy once, cry once.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on February 17, 2017, 08:59:02 am
The JBL PRX715xlf is a very surprising sub for its size and weight and although now in short supply due to it being discontinued, I am sure the replacement - the PRX815xlf would be just as good if not better. I had 2 of them and only sold them recently to allow more room for the 18" subs I use more frequently. They were great for bar work. They were also nice for load in and out - I could pick each one up myself - easily!.
Excellent low end, nice tight punchy sound to the kick drum. Weighs 25.4kg


https://www.thomann.de/gb/jbl_prx815xlfw.htm?ref=search_prv_6
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Geert Friedhof on February 17, 2017, 09:22:23 am
The JBL PRX715xlf is a very surprising sub for its size and weight and although now in short supply due to it being discontinued, I am sure the replacement - the PRX815xlf would be just as good if not better. I had 2 of them and only sold them recently to allow more room for the 18" subs I use more frequently. They were great for bar work. They were also nice for load in and out - I could pick each one up myself - easily!.
Excellent low end, nice tight punchy sound to the kick drum. Weighs 25.4kg


https://www.thomann.de/gb/jbl_prx815xlfw.htm?ref=search_prv_6

Think availability and resale value. Can Justin get another one after a year or so?

Wouldn't the RCF 705-AS II (28kg) be a better choice?

https://www.thomann.de/gb/rcf_sub_705_as_ii.htm?ref=search_prv_5 (https://www.thomann.de/gb/rcf_sub_705_as_ii.htm?ref=search_prv_5)

Still i think starting with one 18" instead of 15" is the way to go forward.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on February 17, 2017, 09:46:14 am
Think availability and resale value. Can Justin get another one after a year or so?

Wouldn't the RCF 705-AS II (28kg) be a better choice?

https://www.thomann.de/gb/rcf_sub_705_as_ii.htm?ref=search_prv_5 (https://www.thomann.de/gb/rcf_sub_705_as_ii.htm?ref=search_prv_5)

Still i think starting with one 18" instead of 15" is the way to go forward.

The PRX815xlf was only just released so if he can get one now, he will get one in a year or so.

Only he can choose whether he should go for a 15" or an 18". The more recommendations he is given, the better. The Yamaha 15" was brought up earlier so I figured I'd offer another 15" for consideration.

If he can support an 18" sub ( travel space, storage space, weight etc) then I agree he should get one and look to add another down the road.

Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on February 17, 2017, 12:48:51 pm
That makes sense, thanks for setting me straight. :)

In the LAB Horn's defense, it did sound better IMO. Though there are 1000's of factors; so not really a useful spec.

As a Labhorn owner whose currently shopping to add some smaller more portable subs, I recently had a listen to the dxs18.  Very impressed, but even being the big brother to the dxs15, it was far from a match against a single lab flattened out a bit. 
Again, very impressed.  If the dxs18 weighed 15lbs less, I would grap them.  (Pure aside...current front-runner is  JTR growler, although thinking strongly about  DIY single 18.)

As Tim explained, labs aren't meant to be used singly.  My guess is, if that wasn't the case, and/or it wasn't a matter of a narrow droning note that matched a dxs peak and a labhorn valley....well, my guess is that there was probably something messing up a direct comparison ....drive level mismatch between  the self-powered dxs and passive labs, leaking lab (that kills em), poor construction, etc. 

It amazes me how much drivers have advanced since the labhorn's design, but how well the labs still hold up in comparisons (for at least the limited array I'm able to compare against) 
It is wasn't for thermal capacity, I bet folks would still be building them..
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Geert Friedhof on February 17, 2017, 10:29:58 pm
The JBL PRX715xlf is a very surprising sub for its size and weight and although now in short supply due to it being discontinued, I am sure the replacement - the PRX815xlf would be just as good if not better.

Sorry Debbie, i misread.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Justin Addison on March 08, 2017, 08:09:42 am
Just a quick update.

new RCF speakers arrived in superfast time (also purchased these on interest free credit from a UK shop). Only downside is they came with European plugs (2 pins rather than the UK 3 pin version) but not a problem as I have loads of spare IEC leads with correct plugs...

I have also sent back the other kit to HiFi Tower and got a full refund which is now sat in my savings account :) .

I quickly tested the speakers and desk in my house with a vocal mic and couldn't get them to full volume - they are seriously loud and can't wait to get them to a rehearsal.

The first few rehearsals are already booked in a room with PA & Amps pre-installed so won't need them initially, but hopefully in a month or so.


Anyway - would like to thank you all for your help / advice / critisicm as if I hadn't come on here I think I would have been stuck with a half hearted PA system.

Thanks again :)
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Chrysander 'C.R.' Young on March 08, 2017, 08:46:52 am
I love a story with a happy ending. 
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on March 08, 2017, 09:05:30 am
Just a quick update.

new RCF speakers arrived in superfast time (also purchased these on interest free credit from a UK shop). Only downside is they came with European plugs (2 pins rather than the UK 3 pin version) but not a problem as I have loads of spare IEC leads with correct plugs...

I have also sent back the other kit to HiFi Tower and got a full refund which is now sat in my savings account :) .

I quickly tested the speakers and desk in my house with a vocal mic and couldn't get them to full volume - they are seriously loud and can't wait to get them to a rehearsal.

The first few rehearsals are already booked in a room with PA & Amps pre-installed so won't need them initially, but hopefully in a month or so.


Anyway - would like to thank you all for your help / advice / critisicm as if I hadn't come on here I think I would have been stuck with a half hearted PA system.

Thanks again :)

Phew..... good job Justin.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on March 08, 2017, 09:18:43 am
So you've taken the advice offered in the first reply 10 pages and three weeks back.  Well done...
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Steve Garris on March 08, 2017, 01:21:20 pm
Excellent - keep us advised.

I've lost track - Which RCF speakers did you buy?
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: David Allred on March 08, 2017, 03:42:04 pm
I really wish you could have done an A-B comparison.  You would definitely be smiling right now.
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Michael Grimaila on March 08, 2017, 03:55:37 pm
Anyway - would like to thank you all for your help / advice / critisicm as if I hadn't come on here I think I would have been stuck with a half hearted PA system.

Thanks again :)

Thanks for taking all of the comments in the spirit they were intended.

For every one person who actually listens to the advice, there are ten that don't and end up with something that is not satisfying.

You will be able to accomplish quite a bit with your new speakers, as you have discovered.

I purchased my first PA with my friends when I was 17.  I am now over 50 and have learned that it is often better to "buy once, and cry once" as others have said. 

Cheers,

Michael
Title: Re: New to passive PA
Post by: Justin Addison on March 10, 2017, 06:46:53 am
Excellent - keep us advised.

I've lost track - Which RCF speakers did you buy?

I got the RCF ART-715A MKII

They are stunning :)